Grant: CARL-- I like that thought. You and Hanky Color Chart make a good point. - 2:49:46 on 1 Aug 97 GMT

Marlene:GRANT -Ha! Ha!, I like that one too, Hanky Color Chart! Now for some actual talk and hopefully some information. What's going on in New York concerning these bombs and who's responsible? I know, at first, someone felt it had something to do with the recent bombing in the Middle East but the last I heard it had nothing to do with it. BTW, when ole Benji became leader in the Middle East, I posted on this discussion that any chance of peace there is history. I still feel this way. If anyone followed the Gulf War as closely as I did (I watched CNN for at least 16 hours a day) they'd know what I mean. - 4:29:03 on 1 Aug 97 GMT

Marlene must be bored..:A little physical humor... - 4:37:03 on 1 Aug 97 GMT

MARLENE-- I imagine we'll be listening to speculation for awhile until they sort things out, as is our way. I don't think there is chance for peace, Benji or no, as long as we have the old "God's chosen people" scam. Would we look at Israel's behavior differently if not for the bible? - 5:40:12 on 1 Aug 97 GMT

Grant:Oops! Me to Marlene. - 5:41:27 on 1 Aug 97 GMT

Peter:----About this asshole: ( see the above ) - 13:49:38 on 1 Aug 97 GMT

Carl:PETER: ignorance has no bounds, the stuff above is just the cry of misery seeking company. - 14:32:02 on 1 Aug 97 GMT

Carl:ANY: Ever since happening upon this site among the first comments i inscribed concerned how this toy i/we play and use to communicate w/each other is one of the best things ever devised. It surely seems like anyone capable of functioning on a keyboard and who can read, ought to somehow also improve or add to their neural network for something good. As i have inscribed of myself before religion and theism had never been a concern, either was very simply nothing, then we placed two of our offspring in a local catholic H.S. where i saw those priests and their confederates do mean things and lie and other assorted negative things to each and other people. Via this PC and the information it brought to me i got a good look at theism and science and well, the contest was not, at all. Theism requires a sustained ignorance of anyone who so chooses that "BS", per BILL talk. - 15:20:52 on 1 Aug 97 GMT

Joette:-->CARL..you are so right! - 17:33:06 on 1 Aug 97 GMT

RON...: Who's da jerk that put all this crap on our page? - 20:30:56 on 1 Aug 97 GMT

Carl:OPEN: I browsing through ELZEY's site clicking on various spots of Lenin. In particular i was surprised at his comments on public education. Unless there was some sort of eliptical type reference somewhere in its text that i confess i missed that old boy was exactly a proponent of a better world marked by boundless educational opportunities for all. I wonder what kind of worker world that person envisioned? RON, it was probably done on behalf of some loving understanding omnipotent etc.etc., god or jesus or holy ghost or maybe an angel or even the mary mohomet or j.smith, take your pick of this litter. - 20:45:36 on 1 Aug 97 GMT

Carl:AMENDS; it s/b '..old boy was "NOT" exactly...my third thumb hit the hot button as i moved to edit, - 20:48:58 on 1 Aug 97 GMT

--Bump time.... - 22:26:14 on 1 Aug 97 GMT

NoGod:hmmm...god. pretty interesting. i'm not a believer and i see no reason why i should be. if anything, i think that a god that can do nothing to straighten out the number of religions or doctrines attributed to it(s), or even stop people from misusing its name(s) or "Holy" directions is no God indeed. - 22:45:54 on 1 Aug 97 GMT

Joette:-->NO GOD..please use your real name... - 22:55:39 on 1 Aug 97 GMT

Carl:BILL: kickin back this PM, just left R.Dawkins site for your preferred quantum p/m stuff. it is interesting and it is pretty new, 'cause i find Dawkins interesting. - 23:01:27 on 1 Aug 97 GMT

Joette:-->MARLENE...re your post this morning about what is happening in Israel...NetenYAHOO is a hard nosed, dangerous person who is not in the least interested in having peace in the middle east. In his own way, he wants to control all that is transpiring there. He is a hate monger, and he is beginning to make Arafat look like Mother Theresa. In regards to your reference to the Gulf War, I too was stuck to my television set for almost all of it, and I will never forget the night the fighting started. It was eery and terrifying, and I spent the whole time worrying about the threats each side was making. I had been in Washington D.C. when Iraq invaded Kuwait, and although it was still several months away, even at that time we could feel the inevitability of the war starting at some point. - 23:01:47 on 1 Aug 97 GMT

Marlene:CARL- Dawkins is interesting! I'd like to get his book _River Out Of Eden_. JOETTE- I got the same impression of Benji. I think he is much worse than Arafat (actually I rather like Arafat so I'm a little bias). The problem I can see is, that it seems many sympathize with the Jews (capitalized because I'm talking culture). - 23:23:07 on 1 Aug 97 GMT

--> lets keep on bumping.... - 0:06:46 on 2 Aug 97 GMT

---->bump... - 0:09:26 on 2 Aug 97 GMT

...> let's bump this goombah into oblivion... - 0:12:15 on 2 Aug 97 GMT

Joette:-->to the things that go bump in the night...it's going to take awhile to get this goof off the page. Has anyone been able to figure out exactly was this person was trying to accomplish? Was he/she/it giggling fiendishly each time he/she/it hit the ADD button? I think, and I am willingly to bet it is a former poster just being a jerk. - 0:16:21 on 2 Aug 97 GMT

Joette:--->MARLENE..other than myself, you are the only person I know that has ever admitted leaning towards Arafat out loud. Like atheism, it is something I keep to myself, because most people just think he is a terrorist. I have also wondered why everyone is so quick to jump to the defense of Israel, as the Palestine population was displaced to make a place for the Jewish survivors of the war. They way the Palestinians were treated after the war was no better than the way the Jewish people were during the war. Them's is fighting words, no? - 0:21:28 on 2 Aug 97 GMT

Marlene :JOETTE- YOU GO GIRL! I couldn't agree more and it seems that there are very few of us that think that way. I purposely made a real attempt to learn Arabic after watching the war and seeing Jewish soldiers shooting Palestinian children that were throwing stones. I'm at about Grade 2 level on that language, for me it's difficult! I asked a lady who was formerly English news editor for Kiwaiti TV, to teach me and so she attempted to do so. The patience she had!!! Her husband was here taking courses at the university and she herself took a few. They had two little girls and actually the whole family and I became good friends. I lost touch with them about two years ago now. The husband was from Jordan and she was from Syria. He hadn't served his time in the Jordian military and was in big shit when he got home. I tried to reach them but after learning from them how their countries are ruled, I decided to drop the inquiries as in some cases it may be doing them more harm than good. Her father was a judge working in Kiwait, and his father was one of the displaced Palestinians therefore having no nationality. I learned so much about their countries and their religion and also the propaganda that our countries spread about theirs. BTW they were fundamental suni muslims. Now about the bombs in New York. It seems that there really is a Hamas connection and unfortunately and Canadian one as well. - 2:53:31 on 2 Aug 97 GMT

Marlene :TO THE EURO-TRASH FLOTSAM that could only dream of bumping we goombahs. Grok yourself into oblivion, you don't have far to go. - 3:55:22 on 2 Aug 97 GMT

Bill..:CARL, Dawkins is one of the authors that I would like to read some day. He's also an Oxford boy, which might presage his worthiness. Did you have a particular sight on the Internet that you were looking at. If so what is the address? Why are you placing your kids in Catholic schools? I would think that you, being an atheist, would insist on a non-denominational school. My wife put our two kids in an Episcopal private school for three years because she started out teaching there and the quality of education was really good (plus it was half price). There were small classes and plenty of one-on-one care there. Of all the religions, the Episcopalians seem the most liberal. We attended church there for awhile and I never felt pressured to do anything. Plus I liked all the wine drinking and stuff. The kids were never interested and I only attended to make my wife happy. After awhile she gave up on us boys and currently no one attends. I think I am too independent to follow anyone else's drum. I am "self-reliant" and feel extremely secure with who I am. Why complicate things? - 11:54:16 on 2 Aug 97 GMT

Joette:-->BILL...well then Ayn Rand has done her job (she being the maveick of rational self interest)! - 13:04:08 on 2 Aug 97 GMT

Joette:--->MARLENE..my posting to the bumper was meant to imply that he or she was just trying to get the other posting off the board (the long, insipid one that didn't make much sense that cluttered the board) Anyway, thanks for that mention of your friends from the middle east. I always find that it is educational to really find out about people and their culture when you have the opportunity. I am one that always asks questions... - 13:08:57 on 2 Aug 97 GMT

Peter ( being his usual mature self )----> BILL---->>:Haw haw haw HAW haaaw!!!Nya nya nya NYA yaaa!! A- a -Ayn Ra-and!!! - 14:24:17 on 2 Aug 97 GMT

Charlton Heston:---:--" Soylent Green is PEEEE--PUUULLL!!!!" - 14:29:56 on 2 Aug 97 GMT

Moishe Levi:--For this I go to college? - 14:38:14 on 2 Aug 97 GMT

Bill..:JOETTE, As I have said before, I see some value in Rand's philosophy, and "self-reliance" and "self-interest" are valuable concepts to learn from her writings. Concerning "self-reliance", many of the problems in world between humans (race, culture, marriages, etc) are associated with dependency/co-dependency, excuses, or blame. People always tend to look 'out there' instead of 'in here' when it comes to "personal responsibility", "personal integrity", or "personal identity". How many times have we heard, "We are unworthy or oppressed because, your ancestors or country did blab, blab, blab…etc". Excuse me but "How about taking personal responsibility for your own success! Nobody is going to assists you out of the hole you have chosen to, not only look for but, crawl into until you first make some personal efforts towards changing you paradigm." If one doesn't know where to start, just ask! I'll go out of my way anytime that I am sincerely asked for assistance. However, I am not very sympathetic towards those who won't even try, and only want to blame other's or other things for their lowly state in which they currently reside. Additionally "self-interests", regardless of our outward façade, is what we all are motivated by. Fear of 'loss' and hope of 'gain,' motivates us humans. These self-interests, however, can never be at the expense of others, because "what comes around, goes around", as they say, and these types of self-interests (that hurt or take advantage of others) are not in your "long-term" self-interest. That's why I always say to practice 'win-win' or 'reciprocity' in any dealings with others, whether it's a business situation or just a simple conversation. If this principle is violated, it's never in your long-term self-interest; you will ultimately pay a price for your actions. In order to respect yourself, you have to respect others. Where I part from Rand's writings is when these writings become elevated to axiomatic levels and thus become the only way to interpret existence. Then this philosophy becomes liken into any other 'belief system' or 'religion', and must be viewed with suspicion. - 14:50:22 on 2 Aug 97 GMT

Joette:-->BILL..I am right there with you when it comes to personal responsibility, although it was not too long ago that you and Ron ganged up on me about the ills of society being larger to blame for Corporate America's attitude towards "the little guy". I don't want to dredge that up again..but you can't be on both sides of the fence. I am going to see your little neighbour Travis Fryman today and tomorrow as I am off to Motor City to take in a couple of games. - 15:19:36 on 2 Aug 97 GMT

Joette:--BILL..the above should read "largely to blame", not "larger to blame" (I must have been thinking about my waistline when I wrote that) - 15:21:48 on 2 Aug 97 GMT

Joette:-->and this is a post meant primarily to get the last of the stupid posts off the board.... - 15:35:24 on 2 Aug 97 GMT

Bill..:JOETTE, Tell Travis that his old neighbor "Bill" said "Hi". His father was a basketball coach and his mother taught physical education so he comes by his talents naturally. Concerning your comment about Corporate America, I can only repeat that there is no reciprocity when it comes to salaries of corporate executive verses the working man/woman. Again I don't see where there should ever be a larger difference between the top executive's salary and the lowest worker's salary than a factor of ten. I am not an executive, but a technical blue-collar worker, which is given from time to time white-collar responsibilities. Financially, I am ahead of, or on par with, most of them but only because of my own-and my wife's--ambition and inventiveness. So, concerning my previous post, do you also agree with my last two sentences which refer to the axiomatic status of Objectivism and my association of this philosophy with that of religion? - 16:48:42 on 2 Aug 97 GMT

Bill..:MARLENE, OTHERS, I guess Joette has already left for Detroit for the weekend. Do you have any comments related to my comments to Joette or her comments to me? It's raining here and not a good day for outside activities. - 20:18:41 on 2 Aug 97 GMT

Marlene:BILL- I do have comments but this is my super busy season. I wish you could send some of that rain up here. We haven't had any in this area for four weeks so I'm out to water before everything dies. Later! - 20:36:43 on 2 Aug 97 GMT

Marlene to one of the 12 tribes:LEVI- Ma- ah salama (best I could do with english) Are you pissed now???? - 20:39:28 on 2 Aug 97 GMT

Bill..:MARLENE, Boy when Joette leaves this whole place shuts down. She questions everything. I can't believe Peter didn't have some comment to make concerning the venerable Rand. Did you get your watering done? Aren't you guys in the flood area, which not too many months ago, extended down through the Dakota's? - 11:59:19 on 3 Aug 97 GMT

Marlene:BILL- No, I actually live right on the edge of the Canadian Shield. Only those who lived in the valley areas of the rivers were flooded. Actually the flooding extended up through the Red River (of the North, I think Americans call it) and the major dump was in Manitoba. Watering's done, I'm canning now. - 19:54:27 on 3 Aug 97 GMT

Marlene:BTW- This weekend for Canuks is a long one. Joette should be back tomorrow. I think. - 19:55:49 on 3 Aug 97 GMT

Joette :--->MARLENE and BILL..ah ha! Caught you talking behind my back! Actually, in Ontario, tomorrow is a "discretionary holiday" so companies don't have to give time off with pay to their humble employees. So, being an employee of a CHEAP company, tomorrow is business as usual for moi. BILL..Travis Fryman fielded the ball like a bag of toys but unfortunately he had a sweet swing, so Detroit won both games. It wouldn't have been so bad, but for the last innings of today's game, it was pouring rain, and those of us with good seats got all wet! Now, on to serious matters...What do you mean I question everything???? hahaha - 22:52:33 on 3 Aug 97 GMT

Joette:-->BILL..are you familiar with the movie "Five Easy Pieces"? In that movie, Jack Nicholson is in a diner and all he wants is a toasted chicken sandwich. The waitress (I hate that word!) told him it wasn't on the menu, and he asks of her "You got bread don't cha? Ya got a toaster of some kind don't cha?". Well, the point of my obvious knowledge of the script of this movies is in reply to your question to me about my belief in the venerable Ayn Rand's axioms. Well, in my best Jack Nicholson voice "Well, you're awake aren't cha? You're reading this posting aren t cha? You know who you are don't cha?" Rather theatric don't cha think? Ayn Rand would be horrifed if she read your comparing her philosophy to religion. She was a true atheist (which by the way is why some of us post on this page), she was a bona fide individualist, and damn nice person to boot (I have connections..) So, please do not ever ask me about Ayn Rand unless you have read every word of her writing, and if you want to discuss it at that point, I would be happy to oblige. Love, Joette - 23:32:09 on 3 Aug 97 GMT

Bill..:JOETTE, You're finally back. How dare you leave us like this. Yesterday was rainy here but today was beautiful and I got a little burnt. I feel like I won today because I really enjoyed myself. Sorry you got rained out. I doubt that Travis would remember me, as it's been 11 years since we left that neighborhood. It was his parents, Bill and Sharon, that we mostly knew and remember anyway. Yes I love Jack Nicholson especially in movies like "The Shining". For some reasons I like intense movies that keep me awake (i.e. Silence of the Lambs). And yes I know, I think, I do & Do, and therefore I AM (a mess really, ha!). But Joette I figured this out all by myself without all the kindly, venerable, and wise old people like Ayn. One minute you say your not an objectivist, but now you sure sound like one of the faithful (kind of religious, huh?) flock, ha! Why do we need to follow the beat of another's drum? Of course there are times, when I can't remember where my drum is, that I do follow another's (for lack of anything better to do), but these times are rare. Why can't we just believe in ourselves? Oh, love you too! - 1:06:04 on 4 Aug 97 GMT

Joette:-->BILL..I am not an objectivist, and if you go back about 1,000 posts, I told the group here that I found Ayn Rand to be fairly simplistic. Believing you exist does not make you an objectivist, and agreeing with her axioms does not make me an objectivist, but I have found Ayn Rand to have a great influence on my life. I have read her work, I have read Plato's work, I have read Bertrand Russell, and most other philosphers, and I have not needed any of them to tell me how to think, but I often agree with what they have managed to get published. I do not know how someone can deny that they exist or that they are not conscious when they are having social discourse with another person. How do you deny that? - 1:41:52 on 4 Aug 97 GMT

Bill...:JOETTE, OK, you're not an objectivist. I have never denied that I, or others, exist. Nor have I denied that I am conscious. I don't know where you got these ideas? I have said that the axiom, "existence exists" doesn't make any sense and that existence is relative to the observer in time and space. Is this where you got that idea from? - 2:36:48 on 4 Aug 97 GMT

Marlene glad your back!:JOETTE- Hey, sorry about the post concerning the "bump" thing. I thought it was the jackass that decided to scribble on the page! Needless to say, my partner and I never have a long weekend but that's the transport industry..hummmmm. I'm reading some of Ayn Rand now actually, _The Romantic Manifesto_. As you point out, I can't say as I think "just like" someone else although I agree more with some than others. Hear anymore on the Canadian connection to those bombs in New York??? BTW, I called the local radio station and asked if they gave a discount to the advertising they do for the "Promise Keepers". They gave me a real runaround. SO! I plan to call the super-rude radio talk host on Tuesday. I already know what his answer will be but I think I'll also ask if they discount for the wiccan order, the local satanic cult, the CFS, catholic church, the bloody bride of christ group and all those no-mind organizations. - 3:41:01 on 4 Aug 97 GMT

Bill..:JOETTE, This will be my last post till Thursday or Friday as I will be unable to read or post. I have a healthy respect for you're viewing of these various philosophers and their writings. They have a lot of good information for you and us to learn from but, to you're credit, you don't seem to make anyone of them sacrosanct as some here may try to do. This portraying of any one particular person, or person's philosophy, as the apotheosis for all to follow concerns me a bit. One could easily replace their religion with some other philosophy or ideology. Rand may be totally innocent with her writings and maybe others have elevated her to higher levels than she intended. Since you have a much more through knowledge of her writings, did she ever say that her philosophy was the ONLY correct interpretation of existence? Well, hang in there girl and don't let anyone push you around or out-question you. Ha! Cheerio! Bye Marlene. - 12:49:43 on 4 Aug 97 GMT

Carl:BILL: your post of 14502202 aug'97, could be appehended as the muffled utterance of one with their head in the sand. Much of where i reside is marked by such medieval-like favor and as history records tell of those times, still is religion the opiate of choice, even here. in prior posts i have posited inscriptions meant to convey that delusions of any kind harm any and all, spiritualists not excepted. I bring this matter back to you because it appears JOETTE has debated the corporate issue w/you, a corporation as you know is a legal person, not entity. This point was referred to by R.Nader as one of the key contributing facts that have led to big money interests versus the poor commoner. While this has served very well capitalism, it has not done anything for the wealth of working. But, this leads me to say that work is a creative moment in anyone's existence. - 15:29:46 on 4 Aug 97 GMT

Carl:BILL: why a catholic school, well this goes in hand with my views of religion as being nothing and i heard many say throughout the area catholic schools prepared students very good for whatever in society. I also knew the public high schools they had to attend were not good per UC Berkeley/Stanford enrollment data. Now, it turns out the catholic school did not teach the kind of math one of my son's needs. And, as i said i did not concern myself w/religion in any way. "they" did. But once i got to look into that kind of thinking then i also ran into this fantastic toy, this PC. So as i inscribed before this has enabled me to learn about many thinkers i never had time to go get, and places i would never go to. Anyway the catholic schools "are not" what they are said to be. Also, my offspring graduated with honors elsewhere. - 15:49:24 on 4 Aug 97 GMT

Joette:-->MARLENE..I would love to hear you on that talk show tomorrow! Too bad it isn't on CBC radio. Give 'em hell! As far as the Canadian connection to the potential New York subway bombing this is all that I have heard: one of the persons involved came from Canada, via the West Bank. When he arrived here, and filled out his immigration parties, he honestly declared that he was involved in Hamas activities. Now, what does this say about our beaurocrats? I am embarrassed for the whole of our country! - 22:58:49 on 4 Aug 97 GMT

Joette:-->MARLENE..that should read "immigration papers", not "parties". What the heck am I thinking about? - 23:00:55 on 4 Aug 97 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- Not only our country!!! How in hell did he make it into the US???? BTW -I understand now that in America a car accident will no longer be called a "car accident". Since at most times the "accident" isn't "fate" from now on they will be called "car crashes". Now this is sensible IMHO. So why doesn't the US get just a little more sensible eliminate the word god. - 5:51:38 on 5 Aug 97 GMT

Joette:-->MARLENE..I was thinking the other day (how unusual) when the national athem was being presented how often the word god shows up in not only that song, but our legislature is opened every day with a prayer. Maybe some of us should start a letter writing campaign to our M.P.'s to let them know how offended we are by that antiquated tradition? - 11:38:36 on 5 Aug 97 GMT

.......NOAH'S ARK............-Why it's a load of old cobblers. Let's look at it: Noah and his sons built, using their bare hands, a seagoing vessel large enough to comfortably house a breeding pair (although the bible isn't clear on this, in one place it says a pair of each creature, a few verses away it says seven of each clean, and two of each unclean creature) of every land animal on the planet, for at least forty days. ........The Ark............ This boat would have had to have been bigger than a super-tanker! There are MILLIONS of species on the land. There are over three hundred and fifty thousand species of beetle alone. The sheer number of insects would fill several arks, before you even consider the larger creatures. The ark would have to be the single largest ship ever in the history of the world. Modern technology could not possibly create a ship large and stable enough to act as Noah's Ark (someone on alt.atheism suggested that Noah would have needed a space-suit to walk on the deck!). Many species of land animal require highly specialised habitat and food to survive. Koala bears, for instance, only eat the leaves of the Eucalyptus tree. Also, no matter what time of year it was, many creatures would be hibernating (it's always winter somewhere on the globe). Many creatures are only found on one continent, indeed some are limited to a small island/forest/mountain. How could the ark cope with all the specialised requirements of food/environment for millions of creatures? How could the ark cope with disposing of the waste products of those creatures? It must have had an incredibly advanced plumbing and ventilation system, superior to anything to be found on modern ocean liners or large military vessels (eg. aircraft carriers). Next time you are at a zoo, ask one of the keepers how easy it is to deal with the needs of the few hundred animals there for a month, and then imagine scaling that up to a gigantic floating zoo with millions of creatures being looked after by a handful of people. .............The Flood.............. Then we come to the flood itself. I believe that the bible states that all land was covered. Up to the top of Mt. Everest then? The volume of water would have been astronomical. Millions of cubic miles. Where did it come from? Where did it go? The polar ice-caps are not big enough. The atmosphere does not contain millions of cubic miles of water. Assuming it was fresh water (as it rained) this would have severely diluted the oceans, causing devastation among the marine creatures. Ask anyone with a marine fish-tank just how sensitive reef-fish and corals are to changes in water conditions. Virtually all sea-life that could not stand brackish water would have been destroyed. How did so many plants survive being submerged in brackish water for so long? Again, many plants are quite sensitive to conditions. Take some of your household plants and leave them submerged in the bath or a pond for a month and see how they do. Then, after the waters subside (where to?) there are still more problems with the story. What happened to all the corpses of the countless numbers of animals and humans that died? Surely there would have been terrible plague and disease caused by all that rotting meat. Many sea-creatures would have been deposited in places they could not normally reach - inland lakes etc. Is there any evidence of marine fish skeletons being found in high, freshwater lake beds? ..............The Animals.............. Next, I have to ask how all the creatures managed to get back to their original habitats, or at least ones that would support them. How did the koalas and kangaroos get back to Australia? How did the polar bears and penguins get home? How did the giant tortoises get back to the Galapagos islands? As there were only two (or seven, depending) of each species, how did they manage to travel thousands of miles back to their place of origin without being eaten, or dying in accidents or of starvation? ..............The People.............. Once Noah had seen all the animals off, he then had to set about repopulating the world. Again, incest in the bible rears it's ugly head. Noah's family had to inbreed to have children. Sons and daughters, mothers and fathers, all nicely mixed together (just as an aside, as all people before Noah were now dead, how does anyone know if the other events in the O.T. are true? We only have Noah's word for it, surely?). The human race effectively began again with Noah & co. - 12:31:34 on 5 Aug 97 GMT

PETER:TO ABOVE ANONYMOUS POSTER....your arguments against this story are just scratching the surface. The sad thing about the Noah story is that regardless of how much counter-evidence is brought forth--complete with simple mathematical implausibilities--there are still millions and millions who will refuse to believe otherwise. - 13:20:03 on 5 Aug 97 GMT

So? - 13:25:36 on 5 Aug 97 GMT

Carl:To The UNKNOWN; as in instance of my views of such writing of and for adherents of that myth, in prior posts i referred to their action of upholding that myth and any of the others as something done by theist-types as sustained ignorance. Several days past, i listened to someone being touted as brilliant and creative, the accolades seemed unending, as the individual had developed some kind of really good computer disc, or something like that, some of which they spoke about. It supposedly had some heretofore time space saving features good where you could put your favorite books, writing and even your bible passages. That, from someone reasonably learned and in possession of a keen sense of logic, would then suggest that anyone would perpetuate extend the existence of such idiocy? Those storys were written by ancient people whose mindset is like those who control religions today, they still just want to control- anything. - 14:48:14 on 5 Aug 97 GMT

RON....(wow)...: Connection to the Internet, what a concept! Hi gang! I'm back after weeks of computer frustration. What are we discussing? Who's the goober with no-name? - 1:10:26 on 6 Aug 97 GMT

RON...--->Noah's head...: The Ark is the oldest BS story created to give meaning as to why the Nephilim tried to destroy us humans the first tme around. They failed, and promised Enlil never to try it again. The End. Game over. Bring in the fat lady. - 1:14:12 on 6 Aug 97 GMT

Joette (the fat lady brought in):--->RON..excuse my lack of knowledge in the Nephilim genre, but who or what is it? - 2:04:41 on 6 Aug 97 GMT

RON...-->Joette...:Those that engineered Homo-sapiens. First inhabitants of Earth. Enlil was second in command and it was he/she/it who is credited (according to the Sumerians) that concocted Homo-sapiens from Nephilim/Homo-erectus DNA. - 2:57:46 on 6 Aug 97 GMT

RON...(bad participants, bad!): I heard through the web server alarm system that some of you were giving BILL a hard time for believing other intelligent life may be out there right now on other worlds. Get a grip people. Toss the old xtians ways a grow a logic core!! - 3:04:19 on 6 Aug 97 GMT

Joette:-->RON..au contraire mon ami. I think the majority of us agreed that there is other life out there. - 11:44:36 on 6 Aug 97 GMT

RON...-->Joette...: But, your petri dish does not count. - 17:52:16 on 6 Aug 97 GMT

Peter ( becoming once again extremely impatient ):RON--I think the analogy I used with Bill was something like: Discussing intelligent life in the universe on other planets is on the same level as discussing floods--as in how can they be prevented, predicted and the emotional repercussions thereafter, and discussing the presence of UFO's on earth pertaining to extra-terrestial sightings/abductions/communications( so far in our history )--is on the same level as discussing the plausibility of the great flood as described in the book of Genesis. In other words: one has nothing to do with the other. - 18:18:54 on 6 Aug 97 GMT

Marlene:HEY! RON- Give Bill grief??? Not me...(smirk)! BTW EVERYONE- Instead of spelling that Nephilim thing (and likely I spelled it wrong again), the N's is a much easier and takes up less space. JOETTE- FYI, the N's as creators is a theory of Zach Sitchin's which Ron has adopted. - 23:38:29 on 6 Aug 97 GMT

Marlene looking forward to the sir-prize!:RON- BTW, I haven't heard any of that tick..tick..tick thing lately??? You said two years, no? What's it been now, a year and a half? - 23:40:40 on 6 Aug 97 GMT

RON...-->Peter...: You mean "either is possible"...? Of course, to our knowledge, the flood (if) has nothing to do with today's UFO (certain) discussions. So, tell me, if none of this discussion is relevant, why participate? - 23:44:23 on 6 Aug 97 GMT

Simon Goober:Hello my old friends. I am planning to update this page to look and behave much nicer. I want your suggestions. Anything you want. Please mail it to YETI@CRACKROCK.COM - 23:45:12 on 6 Aug 97 GMT

RON...always stands by his word....: May, 1998. If I'm wrong I'll sit here and take the flak. - 23:45:28 on 6 Aug 97 GMT

RON...--->SIMON GOOBER...: My partner in web crime...I have a wonderful cloud background that would look smashing here. - 23:46:36 on 6 Aug 97 GMT

Marlene:SIMON and RON GOOBER- Call me set in my ways, but I like it the way it is!!! Okay, May/98 it is....come on Ron, give us a hint?????? - 1:11:19 on 7 Aug 97 GMT

Joette:-->RON..re your reference to Peter about "not participating"..what is this, your way or the highway? What is supposed to happen in May, 1998. Is this the "great castigation" the Lady of Fatima followers believe is going to happen? - 1:39:21 on 7 Aug 97 GMT

Joette:--MARLENE..did you get through to that talk show yesterday? - 1:41:11 on 7 Aug 97 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- No I didn't. Since it's the only radio talk show out here it's hard to get on. The big "promisekeepers" thing is supposed to happen on August 23. I'd love to crash the damn thing! This is supposed to make men more responsible by encouraging them to "rule the roost" in the household. How archaic! - 2:07:02 on 7 Aug 97 GMT

OMNICOOL:Who is this Ron Suggs guy! I've been gone a while and have changed my name. - 3:53:17 on 7 Aug 97 GMT

RON...--->Joette,,,: Not what I meant at all. I meant why participate in a UFO/Flood debate if both are meaningless to him? I don't understand it. I never get my way, so no highway. - 4:06:34 on 7 Aug 97 GMT

RON...--->Noah's head...: Good points on the Ark, especially the space suit. What if the Ark were lifted into orbit? More likely the whole story was made up just so we would never test the wrath of god again. - 4:09:45 on 7 Aug 97 GMT

RON...--->Peter...: This is my point...the flood story has NO bearing on our lives, if the story is true or false. If Aliens are landing and nabbing civilians has bearing. If there is ILOT (Intelligent Life Out There) it would way heavily on all religion. Bibles would have to be re-written over night in hopes of god's glory encompassing Alien life forms. - 4:14:28 on 7 Aug 97 GMT

RON...--->Uncool Omni...: So, what was your previous i.d.?? Or, am I being too curious? - 4:16:03 on 7 Aug 97 GMT

On April 18th, 1988, I did the whole ceremonious type o' deal of goin' before 300 people and tellin' them that I had given my life away to jesus christ, whoever or whatever he is... It was a turning point in my life, but not in such a way that some of ya might be thinking... I went to an enormous amount of church activities and I knew why I did it: to see my friends and to associate with them... I did the church camps and the youth conferences (one of them I was actually a staff member of and acted in this mini skit thingy)... as the summer of 1991 rolled around, I knew that I was finally on the correct road to being the person I wanted to be and this made me quite happy for I've always been the one to exemplify a good deal of confidence so as to not make my low self-esteem look so bad... well, what I wanted to be, and what the bible and what religious big wigs wanted me to be were two different things... this is where religion and I started to have somewhat of a conflict... even if god proved to me that he existed, i could not change my ways just because he told me so... to parallel with this a bit, it was like when my parents told me when I was but a young smart ass that I had to do something at which I would then ask "why"? their reply to me would simply be "because I [we] said so"... that was never a good enough reason for me and I can't recall the number of times I was grounded from playing outside or had an allowance cut off 'cause I said that... goin' back to this god thing, tho'... let's, for a moment, appeal to the christians and say their god exists... now why in the world would a god be so narcissitic and hung up on himself that he would create a whole world of beings merely for his own heavenly soap opera and entertainment??? that jus' seems oh-so-ridiculous to me... why should i worship something like this??? now i know the first flaming i'll get about this will be: well, your parents gave birth to you, do you think they're selfish??? well, based on my personal experience, no!!! my parents have given me the world and they've demonstrated to me on a number of occassions that they love me and I, them... and as for god??? whhhhtttt!!! nothin'!!! I don't play that faith game in this particular situation... I have never felt the love of an implausible being before, that's because something like that never existed to begin with or it's DEAD!!! - 12:06:58 on 7 Aug 97 GMT

On April 18th, 1988, I did the whole ceremonious type o' deal of goin' before 300 people and tellin' them that I had given my life away to jesus christ, whoever or whatever he is... It was a turning point in my life, but not in such a way that some of ya might be thinking... I went to an enormous amount of church activities and I knew why I did it: to see my friends and to associate with them... I did the church camps and the youth conferences (one of them I was actually a staff member of and acted in this mini skit thingy)... as the summer of 1991 rolled around, I knew that I was finally on the correct road to being the person I wanted to be and this made me quite happy for I've always been the one to exemplify a good deal of confidence so as to not make my low self-esteem look so bad... well, what I wanted to be, and what the bible and what religious big wigs wanted me to be were two different things... this is where religion and I started to have somewhat of a conflict... even if god proved to me that he existed, i could not change my ways just because he told me so... to parallel with this a bit, it was like when my parents told me when I was but a young smart ass that I had to do something at which I would then ask "why"? their reply to me would simply be "because I [we] said so"... that was never a good enough reason for me and I can't recall the number of times I was grounded from playing outside or had an allowance cut off 'cause I said that... goin' back to this god thing, tho'... let's, for a moment, appeal to the christians and say their god exists... now why in the world would a god be so narcissitic and hung up on himself that he would create a whole world of beings merely for his own heavenly soap opera and entertainment??? that jus' seems oh-so-ridiculous to me... why should i worship something like this??? now i know the first flaming i'll get about this will be: well, your parents gave birth to you, do you think they're selfish??? well, based on my personal experience, no!!! my parents have given me the world and they've demonstrated to me on a number of occassions that they love me and I, them... and as for god??? whhhhtttt!!! nothin'!!! I don't play that faith game in this particular situation... I have never felt the love of an implausible being before, that's because something like that never existed to begin with or it's DEAD!!! - 12:14:52 on 7 Aug 97 GMT

Joette:--:MARLENE..in reference to your story about the KKK. I wish that the majority of people who find these particular individuals a threat, to actually try to expose them for the baffoons they really are. Could you imagine a rally where they might be surrounded by people who mock their attire and beliefs (tell me Bill, is this one BS that you tolerate?) I have referred to the program called "TV NATION" that had a short, but wonderful, life on Fox TV, and on one show, Michael Moore (my hero) had a group of black high school cheerleaders compete right beside a big KKK meeting. It was hilarious! Even though the KKK tried to act tough, they were made to look as ridiculous as anyone possibly could be. It is more assertive action like this that may shut them up once and for all. - 14:36:34 on 7 Aug 97 GMT

Carl:OPEN: been ponderin' some things like the suceptibility of some to religion, conservatism and even the BILL name's belief system, a convenient catch all. My vantage point focused on logic, reason and the unknown. On the flip side of that perspective was my favorite fear, 'others who seek control,' like the KKK and religious leaders. Such interests seemingly selectively ignore, manipulate or lay claim to any or all three words for the purposes of their devious ends or goals. One of the interesting things I like about this site is that the discussion, now and then, allows one to envisage ideas and notions with some freshness that makes them seem strange. Consequently, some individuals that participate here may even end up with some new neural connections. Even the jc adherents i'm certain even as they shuffle off they "feel" energised with a newness of experiencing the relevant words of sound atheism. Creatures like the KKK and religious leaders like any fundamentalist leader of your choice they need confusion if they are to have followers. - 16:52:06 on 7 Aug 97 GMT

OMNICOOL>>>RON: :I guess I was a little out of it not to realize that ,RON, was Ron Suggs. If it is so hard for you to fathom why someone would create a world, than whatever your beliefs are towards the way the world did come about must be pretty easy to believe. Please state those beliefs of yours. - 16:57:44 on 7 Aug 97 GMT

Marlene:RON- I see that you are "curious" who the poster with the "new" identity is too. - 19:25:44 on 7 Aug 97 GMT

Joette:..TO ALL..who is the copy and paste person? The posting that is here was written by myself several months ago, and I am quite surprised to see it surface again. Could it be the same person who does not identify himself, but has lots to say about nothing? He must be down and under! - 20:40:45 on 7 Aug 97 GMT

Carl:JOETTE: are you serious, well I got tricked, although it seemed like a repeat, i proceeded to post what you may have noted. If we were dealing w/kids, we kno they grow and mature, ignorant and stupid folks do neither. later... - 22:17:30 on 7 Aug 97 GMT

Marlene noticed:JOETTE- You know I was just thinking the same thing. I was going to mail you this morning and ask you about it. It has to be the same goof! - 22:23:19 on 7 Aug 97 GMT

Joette:-->CARL..even though you were "tricked", you made some good points. RON..still waiting to hear what is supposed to happen in May, 1998... - 22:48:49 on 7 Aug 97 GMT

Bill..:ALL, Well I'm back in town for a little while. I'll have to review old post later. Joette I got to see some baseball last night in Three Rivers Statium, after the tailgate party of course. The Florida Marlins (yea Florida!) beat the Pirates 12 to 3. Do you ever get to watch Toronto play the Pirates? I never realized how neat that city is with the rivers sandwiching the city and the view from Mt. Washington is spectacular. I met a Canadian girl, with her young kids, in the Jacuzzi at the hotel and she said that she lived in New Market, Canada and it only took her 6 hours to drive down to Pittsburgh by way of Buffalo. Do know where this city is in Canada? Well gotta get some sleep. No cheers tonight as I have had enough to drink the last few days. Sure would like to watch the Roy Jones fight though. Bye! - 1:58:47 on 8 Aug 97 GMT

Joette:-->BILL..now isn't baseball much more fun than worrying about a cosmic intelligence. Yes, I know where Newmarket is..it is just north of Toronto, which is slightly less than one hour east of where I live. Three Rivers is a nice stadium, and before my conversion to American League interest, the Bucks were my favourite team. The Jays have never played the Pirates, as they are different leagues, but with the advent of inter-league play (which I think sucks; no comment Adam if you are lurking), but maybe next year they will play them. Your Florida team has Devon White who was my favourite Blue Jay until they gave him away... - 2:12:37 on 8 Aug 97 GMT

RON...--->OMNICOOL...: Why must the universe have been created by a someone? I ask this all the time. The universe is not a toaster or color TV set. Manufacturing not required. Our species was engineered on this planet hundreds of thousands of years ago for dumb and simple labor. We are the pets that grew up. Mankind invented "gods" in order to raise our species to some importance. - 3:03:31 on 8 Aug 97 GMT

RON...--->ALL...: I will be going through my second D-I-V-O-R-C-E soon and don't know when I can get back on to chat with you wonderful people. I'm very hurt right now and full of anger. My wife has run off with my son and I have many things to do and no time to do it. During these hard times this page will continue to function and is in no danger of going down, the bills are paid and the power is on. One day soon this pain will end. Until victory....peace. - 3:08:07 on 8 Aug 97 GMT

Marlene:RON- I'm sorry to hear about your marriage breakdown. Being through something similiar myself, I've found that once the pain is eased, one realizes that it's just another one of life's lessons. - 3:17:09 on 8 Aug 97 GMT

OMNICOOL>>>RON:If the world was not created than how do you suppose it got here? - 3:26:54 on 8 Aug 97 GMT

RON...--->OMNICOOL...: That's not an important question. What is more important is how do we get off our world and travel great distances. If Columbus stopped to question the origin of the Atlantic Ocean, I would not be here today. - 3:49:28 on 8 Aug 97 GMT

RON...--->Marlene...: Thanks for the kind words. I hate having my heart broken. Yeah, it's another one of life's lessons. It's very sad that men are held hostage to their wives. - 3:53:37 on 8 Aug 97 GMT

Joette:-->RON>.my sentiments were the same as Marlene's until you last post. I understand that you are hurt, but please, your situation is your own, and not indicative of other marriage breakdowns. I hope you find your son quickly. - 12:01:19 on 8 Aug 97 GMT

Bill...:JOETTE, Contrary to what people may think here, I don't really worry about cosmic intelligence or any other similar things. I only think about such things when I am looking for something to discuss here. My everyday life is filled with just "life-things" that we all have to deal with or enjoy. The Marlins also captured one of the Pirates' players, for a sizeable sum of money, in which the crowd booed every time that individual came to the plate. Poor guy his 2 million a year was all he had to comfort him. If you ever get to Pittsburgh, get your hubby to take you to the Le Mont restaurant on top of Mt. Washington. Directly across the Ohio River from Three Rivers Stadium and the Carnegie Museum is the Duquesne Incline (right on the south side river bank). This cable/train car is pulled about 500 feet straight up Mt. Washington to the top where all these restaurants are located. At the top just turn left and walk down the street passed the Tin Angle (Clinton dined there) to the Le Mont. This French restaurant is very old but elegant with glass windows everywhere, and hanging out over the mountain it gives one a spectacular view of the city as the city lights up at night. Food is excellent! - 12:19:51 on 8 Aug 97 GMT

Bill..:RON, Sorry about your family situation. Everyone has to deal with misfortune in life in one way or another. If I can help, you have my email. Hang in there! - 12:22:30 on 8 Aug 97 GMT

Carl:OMNICOOL: if you get a chance go to the site named Richard Dawkins where you will see another site called the "white papers", you just might find the topics and stuff there, different if not enlightening. A particular line that is relieving, that you'll pass by tells how Plato's query of and for 'essences' is off target. Your question of "how", seems to invite some views of the older framework of metaphysical rhetoric. Consequential to such rheoric, lets not be surprised to find on the other side of this controversey, to most likely find the question of. "...but, who did it?" - 14:41:12 on 8 Aug 97 GMT

Bill..:JOETTE, I don't know about the KKK right now, as I'm into SSS (Shit, Shower, and Shave; and get to the airport). I will have to review and answer everyone's posts Monday, as I won't be back till late Sunday night. My wife and I enjoyed our little vacation weekend rendezvous last year so much in Charleston, SC; we are going to "Do-It" (I speak with forked tongue here) one more time :~)…my pleasure/drunk symbol kind of like SSS (Sex, Sex, Sex). I hope she likes the little presents I got for her from the Body Shop in the Pittsburgh airport/mall. She is several years younger than I, but I won't hold that against her. Ha! She got us a hotel room in the historic district (wants to shop, I know…L ) this year instead of the Raddisson (sp?) by the airport. No technical seminar's to attend this weekend :~). Hey, I met some colorful British Chaps/Mates this past week in Pittsburgh. What do they mean by "Bloke"? Is this another name for Mate? - 15:19:35 on 8 Aug 97 GMT

Bill..:The "L" in "(wants to shop, i know...L) should have been my sad face :-). My computer change it, sorry. - 15:21:33 on 8 Aug 97 GMT

Bill...:Any my :-) should have been :-(...I must be in a hurry, Bye!! - 15:22:44 on 8 Aug 97 GMT

Joette (always the height of politcal correctness):-->BILL..well, now that we know your itinerary blow by blow (tongue firmly in cheek), I would like to point out something to you. I, like your wife, am probably quite a bit younger than you, so expressions such as "get your husband to take you to..." really offend me. I do not require anyone to take me anywhere, as I am very economically established by my own talets and well paying job. If I chose to go somewhere with my partner, it will be a mutual decision, so neither one of us has to feel obligated to the other, just like when dating. I am sure that the restaurant you described is wonderful, and maybe someday we will go there, but no one will be getting the other to take them there (conjures up images of the cave man dragging his woman by the hair). - 17:43:22 on 8 Aug 97 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- You go girl!! According to SOME of the present posters, women also sit and eat bon-bons all day. Now, for those who are believers in the supernatural, what's you're take on reincarnation? - 18:09:58 on 8 Aug 97 GMT

Peter:Bill--( in reference to Joette's last post )--ha HA!--so THERE!!! She told YOU didn't she? Nya nya nya NYA nyah!! Looks like you got a piece a' larnin' ta to, boy. - 18:59:53 on 8 Aug 97 GMT

Peter ( beginning to grind his already worn-down teeth):OMNICOOL--Honestly now, are you at all familiar with any aspect of astro-physics, namely nuclear fusion? - 19:07:06 on 8 Aug 97 GMT

Joette:-->MARLENE..(re reincarnation)..in the esteemed words of Yogi Berra "It's like deja vu all over again!" - 20:01:04 on 8 Aug 97 GMT

Carl:OPEN: Carousing through the various sites on assorted systems and sites, then regularly visiting and buying up a good book or two it is amazing that so many people still prefer myth and fable. Individuals in control like B.Clinton do and say things to drag on these same myths and fables just because, it looks like their view of others is not or rather, their views lack a high expectation of people. Such views seem in line with a notion i read about a theory X and another for Y. One said that workers do only what they are instructed the other that they must be supervised because they won't do the job, or something like that. It has been a few years since i read these ideas. If that thinking infects elected officials then no wonder they do as Clinton and bush and the prior sorts, wherever they may be, to "plug-into" the religion thing. Idiots such as those that have appeared here clearly give them good reason to continue with such an opinion. It becomes just as history books disclose, an excuse (remember the loser thing?) for them to do just about as they please. Remember G.Bush's S&L bailout that started in Colorado, i seem to recall, with his son, per several sources reported. When will folks wisen up? - 22:38:30 on 8 Aug 97 GMT

Joette:-->CARL..unfortunately the majority believe the myths and fables, and without going along with the majority, the Clinton's and Bush's of the world would not get elected. What comes out of their mouth is not necessarily what they believe, but since they bullshit the public about everything else, why not religion as well? - 23:43:25 on 8 Aug 97 GMT

Adam ATHEIST:To GODLESS GANG...Just want to let everyone know that I'm back from Texas and will be monitoring for a bit. What's been hot on the wire this week, birds? Hey Jo-you-should-root-for-the-Mets-ette, NY is up 5-1, including an RBI by pitcher Bohanan (his 1st major league ribbie, as he spent most of his time in the AL, with its STOOPID designated travesty rule. - 1:05:35 on 9 Aug 97 GMT

Joette:-->ADAM..get to work! It's now 6-1 for the Mets. They got Brian McRae with that trade, and when he was with the Royals he was always good for a clutch hit..hope he does the same for the Mets (whom I hope make the wild card spot..) In the past week, we have discussed such issues as Bill seeing his first major league game in Pittsburg, Bill drinking too much in Pittsburg, Bill getting a sunburn last weekend, Bill having a dirty weekend with his young wife, and a host of other Bill related things....Ron is reeling from a breakup in his marriage, and still believes that we are mere by-products of an alien invasion a long time ago, Marlene has been trying to ask pointed questions of Ron but getting no response, Peter is pissed off at Bill and Ron for their extra-terristrial beliefs, some nimrod has been harrassing us with old posts of mine, Carl has been his usual "heavy thinking" self, and some others have come and gone. Oh yeah, someone named the "Truth" decided we should all join a church in Chicago I believe. Is this enough of an update? - 2:15:25 on 9 Aug 97 GMT

Joette (inquiring minds want to know):-->GRANT..where for art thou? - 2:18:18 on 9 Aug 97 GMT

RON...Please excuse my comment...: I meant no disrespect towards women. But, the laws are biased towards mothers. I found out today were my child is, but I cannot legally get him unless I file for a divorce in order to hold a court order defining my rights as a father. I love my wife. I love my wife with all my heart. I don't CARE who must know this or reads this. I sat in front a lawyer today and listened to him tell me I should file for a divorce TODAY. I declined because I want my family back. I will hold on to my house and all our belongings as long as I can hoping for a resolution because I'm a love sick (some will say stupid) puppy who loves his wife unconditionally. I wish I could see my son between now and then. Ok, enough of my own laundry.... - 2:26:18 on 9 Aug 97 GMT

RON...whoa there....--->Joette...: I must have missed the pointed questions. I always enjoy answering those little pointy mothers....where is it? - 2:27:56 on 9 Aug 97 GMT

RON...(my house is as quite as a tomb, and I hate it)...--->Bill...: Thanks for the kind words and email. One day, when I meet I'll give you a great, big hug. - 2:30:28 on 9 Aug 97 GMT

RON...new topic...or old???: Has anyone followed the new church retriction bills before the Russian parliment? - 2:32:13 on 9 Aug 97 GMT

RON...--->Marlene...: You're never going to forgive me for that bon-bon comment, are you? Tried some more of your jelly last Sunday. I can't see how such dark jelly can be so mild in flavor. Amazing. - 2:34:16 on 9 Aug 97 GMT

Joette:-->Ron..the question about what is going to happen in May, 1998..(I too had been asking it). - 3:00:01 on 9 Aug 97 GMT

Marlene:RON- That's the saskatoon one right? It's not my favorite but it's from the wild berries found in this area. It wasn't only you that got into that bon-bon rut. In Canada here, possesion is nine points of the law. If you would have left with the child, (if you were found to be a competent parent) you would have the child in your temporary custody until such a time that a custody order is defined by the court. It matters not whether you are the mother or father, as long as your a capable parent. - 4:07:23 on 9 Aug 97 GMT

Marlene:HI ADAM and same for me as for Joette, WHERE ARE YOU GRANT???? JOETTE- Ron has told us all along that it's a sir-prize. - 4:09:41 on 9 Aug 97 GMT

Joette:-->MARLENE/RON...but is it another (ho hum) alien invasion? Another mass suicide? Another bombing of a federal building? "god" wreaking havoc? Now, if there is some earthquake, flood, or other natural event, it won't count, right? - 13:05:24 on 9 Aug 97 GMT

Grant:JOETTE-- MARLENE-- Computer difficulties- I'm back (I think.) - 15:32:47 on 9 Aug 97 GMT

Grant:RON-- Hang in there. - 15:33:42 on 9 Aug 97 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- Ron won't even give us a hint! GRANT- Good to have you back! - 16:50:15 on 9 Aug 97 GMT

Grant: ALL-- I heard something about a quote from George Bush, something like "I don't think athiests should be considered citizens. This is a country under God." Anybody heard of this? - 20:02:27 on 9 Aug 97 GMT

Joette:-->GRANT..is reminiscent of the slave days isn't it? If he really did say it, he should give his head a shake...this really makes me angry! - 20:17:01 on 9 Aug 97 GMT

Marlene:GRANT- Do you think Geogie really wanted to rule a country full of thinkers? - 21:36:37 on 9 Aug 97 GMT

Grant: MARLENE-- We haven't exactly had a string of intellectuals for presidents down here have we? -- JOETTE-- It made me angry as well, and astonished. I'd like to track it down- see if he really said it, and in what context. - 7:18:22 on 10 Aug 97 GMT

RON...(oh)....--->Joette,,,: May 1998....hmmm A public announcement of significants from our government concerning the true existance of Alien contact on a high level. An admittance of sorts...It is rumored that Mr. President has made 5 versions of a video taped announcement over a year ago. With all the media hype coming out in the last year or so, I'd say I'm damn close on the date. Of course, I may have picked the month I will die too. - 8:20:57 on 10 Aug 97 GMT

Jmaes --> Atheist Friends:Well, its been a while and hope no one is offended by the fact that I did not take the time to read back on all the issues . I did want to take the time to say hello and let you folks know I have not forgotten the numorerous occasions I enjoyed your company. Anyway I am sure you are way to busy to resond to my pleasantries so I will let you go in hopes that I will have more time to devote the time you truley desreve at a later date. As always, may the creator be with you, Love, James.....wish I could prove that too. - 8:38:22 on 10 Aug 97 GMT

James-->Athesit....:Can you believe I did that.....I can...Oh well...No one is perfect....except of course Jesus Christ. - 8:43:12 on 10 Aug 97 GMT

RON...--->All...: James is drunk and typing this crap from my house...it's late at night (morning actually) and he took me out to cheer me up. A true friend indeed. I'm well on my way to being drunk too. Jesus was just a carpenter's son, the last custom blended Alien-Homo sapien. - 8:45:49 on 10 Aug 97 GMT

Joette:-->MARLENE..so now we know the secret to getting information out of Ron..get him all liquored up and take advantage of him! JMAES (aka JAMES)..does Jesus approve of inebriation? Or this that why he was so handy in providing massive amounts of wine to anybody who needed it? - 17:01:06 on 10 Aug 97 GMT

RON...--->Marlene...: It's the same law here. Whomever nabs the child first gets temporary custody. Sounds like a damn sport to me. - 1:55:37 on 11 Aug 97 GMT

RON...--->Joette...: Yeah, baby, get me all liquored up and take advantage of me! I like the way that sings! - 1:58:22 on 11 Aug 97 GMT

RON...--->Grant...: Thanks bud, I'm starting to get over the depression. I had heat stroke today and took the Ambulance ride. Seems not eating for 4 days while not sleeping and yard work in 95 deg heat do not mix well. I thought I was going to die...I'm becoming quite ill of all the people telling me to go back to church and pray. - 2:03:24 on 11 Aug 97 GMT

Marlene who has always got time for a deluded xtian:RON- James would say.....jc sat in the desert, not eating and not drinking for days. You NEED to suffer to be an xtian (is that "a" xtian or "an"), anyway you should not have succumbed to that ambulance ride. You should have picked up that pip squeak James and carried him on your back all the way to the hospital. In the meantime James could pray that you wouldn't prove to be atheist and throw him off the next overpass. BTW HI JAMES! - 2:46:00 on 11 Aug 97 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- You HAVE to understand James-style xtianity. James does NOT live by _The Bible_ but makes up his own idea of xtianity as he goes along. - 2:49:55 on 11 Aug 97 GMT

Joette:--->RON..even if the food isn't going down very well, you have to look after yourself..you need mental and physical strength to get through what is ahead of you. (yes, mom) TO ALL.. I just watched "Breaking the Waves", another cinematic gem that brings out the bullshit that is bullshit. If you haven't seen it, I recommend it with two enthusiastic thumbs up, but be prepared to be angry. - 2:54:46 on 11 Aug 97 GMT

Grant: RON-- I have found the passing of time, and a good drunk to be quite effective as treatment of depression. The heat stroke is considered optional. Telling you to pray is equivalent to "think happy thoughts," don't you think? - 3:35:45 on 11 Aug 97 GMT

Joette fixing her typos:Re my post about that movie, it should read "bullshit that is religion". - 11:38:09 on 11 Aug 97 GMT

Adam AYTH:To (Your Name)...All: I'm back in for the workweek. Hi, Marl & Jo, just now read your greetings from Friday night. RON: If Jesus is KING, and thus a head of state of sorts, and also has inhereted some carpentry skills, can he therefore build his own cabinet? MARLENE: True editor's note-if the abbreviation "xtian" generally is pronounced "christian" when it is read aloud, the preceeding article would be "a." If, however, the abbreviation has taken on a pronunciation of its own (like, to a great extent, has "xmas") and generally is read as "EX-CHEE-EN," you would preceed it with an "an." Of course, it is not recognized as a word yet, at least according to American Heritage, which is our newsroom's standard. JO-ETTE-TU-BRUTE?: Since that win, the Mets have lost 2 to HOU (and two to you-hoo, too), including a 5-run 9th by newly acquired Rojas ("Row, row, row, your, Jass, swiftly off my team, terribly, terribly, terribly, terribly, in that deal the Mets got reamed!"). Also, if GEE-SUSS can turn water into hard cider, I may rethink this whole ATHEIST thing, as long as xtanity doesn't require me to molest children. OK, y'all, I'll be bondin' and respondin'; checkin' and refleckin'; throughout dis week. Aaah-ight? - 18:02:02 on 11 Aug 97 GMT

Carl:GRANT: The quote you refer to, may be viewed and properly dated on various atheist and political watchdog sites, may i add, if there is one thing US leaders don't need a lot of, it is an honest rationl voting body. - 18:51:12 on 11 Aug 97 GMT

Marlene:ADAM- Thanks (also not a recognized word) for the grammer lesson. Maybe Gezzsussians ? - 19:43:09 on 11 Aug 97 GMT

Joette :--ADAM..since you are giving grammar lessons, what would be the verb form of "curmudgeon"? - 19:47:26 on 11 Aug 97 GMT

Adam HAYFEVERIST:To the previous TROIKA...CARL: I don't see why "honest" was added. Atheists are inherently more logical than the mythologically encumbered masses, but no more honest. Would I lie about something like that? For example, I am an ATHEIST and I assure you that the Blue Jays will make the playoffs. That may be seen as irrational, but no; I'm just lying through my teeth (it's a little BLUE lie). Having said that, for no other reason than to get a rise from Toronto Jo, I would hope a rational voting body would see to it that the government removes that religius graffiti from my goddamned money and from the walls of NY State courtrooms. To MARLENE-WHAT-YOU-MEAN?: Au contraire; "thanks" indeed is a word (both noun and interjection [interjections tell a story...or by a comma when the feeling's not as strong"-Schoolhouse Rock]). Conjunction junction, what's your function? JO-ETTE-YMOLOGY: Are you sure you mean "verb," as in "to curmudgeon"? There is none. Perhaps you can say what you want to by going via the adjective "curmudgeonly" or the "field" noun of "curmudgeonry." Interestingly, there is no consensus as to the origin of the word (perhaps "coeur" + "méchant", or "evil heart"). By the way, I was giving no lesson off the cuff; Marlene specifically left the inquiry in an earlier "article." - 20:30:24 on 11 Aug 97 GMT

Adam JESUS JOKESTER:To ALL: The riddle for today's PLASTIC JESUS award goes to the correct solution to: WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A COMMA AND A KITTEN? - 20:34:05 on 11 Aug 97 GMT

RON...--->Grant...: Right now a good drunk would kill me. Too weak to lift the bottle. - 21:59:45 on 11 Aug 97 GMT

Carl:GRANT: perhaps i embellished on some character points, 'jays? somewhere along the line some team will meet the Giants outta S.F. bay. That may not be a task for lite-waits. - 22:21:10 on 11 Aug 97 GMT

Carl:AMENDS: sorry grant post was directed to ADAM's attention. - 22:29:14 on 11 Aug 97 GMT

Joette:--ADAM..you old curmudgeon! I was not being facetious when I said "since you are giving grammar lessons.." as I enjoy your literary comments very much. - 22:36:34 on 11 Aug 97 GMT

Adam A.T.IST: To the Previous Doi-ka...CARL: SF Giant Aunts will meet the Mets at Shea Aug 25-27 and will be cut down to size. To JO-ETTE-GET-OFF-MY-BACK: I did NOT think you were being facetious; I thought you were being OBNOXIOUS. Skuze me, jeez-whiz! Hey, I'm going home soon, where I'm not wired, so if no one answers the riddle soon, I'll have to hold it over 'till tomorrow or give a quick answer. QUOTE DU JOUR: "Religion is the great anchor upon the human ship of intellectual progress." Second riddle: Who said it? I got Santa's plastic jesus burnin' a hole in Rudolph's head for EITHER this one or the earlier riddle. - 23:11:24 on 11 Aug 97 GMT

Bill..:JOETTE, Forgive me for not being politically correct all the time; I was only passing on information that you might want to explore. No offense intended. I would really like to see the cave man that could drag you by the hair, ha! I'm afraid he would have his hands full. - 1:59:58 on 12 Aug 97 GMT

Joette:--->ADAM...THIS is OBNOXIOUS..Blue Jays 8, Detroit 1..Houston 8, New York 2 (at least at this writing, nah nah nah) - 2:12:40 on 12 Aug 97 GMT

Joette:-->BILL..I wasn't expecting an apology. Just mind your P's and Q's re the mating game...(and was it?) - 2:15:09 on 12 Aug 97 GMT

Carl:OPEN: i saw an interesting query for anti-evolutionists presented in an article on speciousness, it seems...as i lost track of the sites i followed to it, it turned the tables to ask of them- probably creationists, show an example of something living that cannot be tracked via an evolutionary process. The process ranged from physical to DNA aspects of evolution, i bring this matter here to see if one the participants of this line have seen or maybe even know of such a prospect, but not things outside of concepts of nature such as IPU or its likeness jc and his virgin ma. This just seemed like fair play kinda' question, no? - 14:48:40 on 12 Aug 97 GMT

Marlene:HEY CARL- Fair Play for sure! Ball's in their court. The question is what WILL they come up with???? - 17:41:13 on 12 Aug 97 GMT

Adam:To the Group...I'm back on for the PM. Insofar as nobody has attempted either of the brain teasers, I will provide one of the answers and a hint as to the other. First, I got the quote a little mixed up; it's "RELIGION IS THE GREAT ANCHOR ON THE SHIP OF HUMAN INTELLECTUAL PROGRESS." It was said by someone who may not be a household name, but should be familiar to this group as a known ATHEIST. As for the riddle: The difference between a COMMA and a KITTEN is that a COMMA is a PAUSE at the END of a CLAUSE... - 20:26:02 on 12 Aug 97 GMT

Carl:ANY: at the time i saw that query for a creationist i thought it was a sure fire no miss question, theists would be burning their sacred scriptures by the truck load. Then i see what the city of S.Diego seeks to for friar J.Serra an early U.S.inquisitor of the west coast. will folks never wise up? - 22:00:23 on 12 Aug 97 GMT

Marlene:OKAY ADAM- I'll take a guess, ...who is- Thomas Paine? - 23:15:50 on 12 Aug 97 GMT

Bill...:RON, I tried to post this last night but only Joette's post went through. For some reason I had trouble all day on Monday. I wonder if others have had trouble posting here lately? I seem to be able to access Man-made OK tonight. I'll see in a minute if this post makes it OK. Concerning your post yesterday, have you tried taking some St. John's Wort or Kava Kava? Both of these can be purchased at Wal-Mart (made by natural resources) and are prescribed by doctors in England (in the place of Prozac etc) as an effective anti-depressant. This might help you more than the alcohol. Be leery of those that try to exploit your present vulnerability by converting you to their doctrine. - 23:29:18 on 12 Aug 97 GMT

Bill..:JOETTE, We had good time in Charleston but we were both tired from all the travelling the past week, so we stayed around the historic district and market place Friday night and Saturday. Charleston reminds me of a cleaner, nicer, safer, cheaper, and friendlier New Orleans. Have you ever been to Charleston? We seemed to spend the most time at the Mill brewery and bakery on Market Street. They had an outdoor bar and restaurant Along With Big Daddies blues band. Big Daddy is a black 72-year-old, James Brown looking dude with one arm, and he sang and played the harmonica. My wife had to buy a CD of his band for her office listening. The lyrics were quite funny. This brewery made it's own Pelican beer (light in taste, but the color of ice tea) and Friday night we had two large drafts each along with a dozen Buffalo wings and chips and dip, for all of twenty bucks. Inside there was the brewery, bar, bakery, game room, video's, etc. What a neat relaxing place with lots of young people and dancing. Sunday it started to rain so we decided to forgo the plane trip to Atlanta and we drove over to see my oldest son and his girlfriend. He was the one who just graduated and moved to Atlanta and we saw his house for the first time. We then went out for dinner in the Underground Atlanta (shops, restaurants, etc) before catching the plane back to Pensacola, Florida. My youngest son was already home from college with some friends and I think it will take me a week to recover and digest all of this. So what did I miss while I was gone? I guess I will have to scan back sometime and try to read a little more through. - 0:17:32 on 13 Aug 97 GMT

Adam:To Marlene-Keen-To-Guess: Good try, but it was, in fact, a trick question: the quote is from yours truly. Sorry! - 0:22:48 on 13 Aug 97 GMT

Marlene:ADAM- Does this mean I don't win the damned plastic jesus award?? But a good line, I must say! - 1:20:27 on 13 Aug 97 GMT

Grant: BILL-- I was joking to Ron about alcohol, if that's what you referred to. You mentioned some time ago that you had never suffered a serious depression, so why do you prescribe these herbal remedies? Sometimes people get depressed just from their situation and pills are not appropriate. Some consider medication never to be appropriate for non-clinical depression. I know you have good intentions, but if Ron were suffering a serious depression your advise would seem extemely condescending to him I would guess, as it did when you offered it to me a couple of months ago. I'm not trying to blast you. You just need to be a little more aware IMHO. - 2:40:51 on 13 Aug 97 GMT

Marlene:GRANT- I do agree with medication combined with proper counselling for the treatment of depression. Are you talking here about depression as an illness or just day to day events that cause one to feel depressed? - 3:36:12 on 13 Aug 97 GMT

Marlene:GRANT- I agree, I don't think that herbal remedies could relieve depression as do the proper medications for the purpose. - 3:39:12 on 13 Aug 97 GMT

Grant: MARLENE-- Depression can be quite serious. One can lose the ability to interpret the words and actions of others correctly. Paranoia can be present. It can be quite easy for a bystander to do unintentional harm. A person can learn to control, or at least to get through serious depression (the illness) by remaining detached from their thoughts (not trusting them) and waiting it out, but even a display of concern from someone can make a depressed person afraid that they are not in control, and can cause panic. Realize that it's quite scary to not be in control of one's thoughts. When a person is in this state they do not want to hear about meds and doctors and how they need help. They only want to get through the next two minutes, and to regain control of their thoughts. I'm not sure you can understand it if you haven't experienced it. The best way to treat a person in this state is to act completely normal. Laugh, joke, insult. Whatever you normally do. This is reinforcement to the person that he/she is still in control. Sorry to lecture. The point is that you must be careful. Not everyone lives through their depression. - 4:28:19 on 13 Aug 97 GMT

Carl:GRANT: It is inconceivable here to allow that someone could 'not control' their thoughts. I can see not knowing what to think and even consider a point of view for one like 'The Rainman', but i'm strange in that i still struggle with the idea of 'stress', everybody gets it and benefits but me. You mention it in terms of an illness, ok i can go with that if that can be made relative to whatever. So, maybe you could recommend some author whose views are sound and perhaps even relative to some concepts of nature, or is this 'depression'-like a god, also a manmade thing? - 14:45:20 on 13 Aug 97 GMT

Marlene:GRANT- I totally agree with you! - 15:31:06 on 13 Aug 97 GMT

Carl:GRANT: You may consider my query either on hold or withdrawn, at another site named the why files in the mad scientist site. I read elsewhere that Helen keller said "people do not like to think because when one thinks one must come to conclusions, the conclusion may be disturbing." is that what your no control of thinking aims at? - 16:30:33 on 13 Aug 97 GMT

Carl:AMENDS to GRANT: curses! after..withdrawn, "its" needed to appear here. - 16:32:46 on 13 Aug 97 GMT

Marlene:CARL- I didn't know Helen Keller said that! That's so true! I think what Grant means is that when chemical disturbances happen in the brain one's thoughts change. For instance, I personally have sufferred froma bout of clinical depression. At the time my thoughts were of a negative nature. One example would be, if my daughter went out with her boyfriend and wasn't home on time, I would dwell on the possibilty of a car accident. No matter how much I tried to direct my thoughts to other possibilites, that one thought was ever present. I had no control over it. - 16:37:54 on 13 Aug 97 GMT

Carl:MARLENE: That scenario includes me and my concerns when my sons go out w/their friends, afterall, we've referred to dangers of young people and cars several times, while they are out that prospect is with me always. I don't hold it as an illness, though, I think just so, just because it prepares me for a bearer of bad news. Such things happen. I consider thoughts of good and bad must be on one's mind. Afterall, I for one am not some theist who needs someplace heaven-like, a nonsense I don't want, nor do i see drugs as optional. While we hold strong emotional attachments for our offspring, they live and we would like to think long after our own demise, true? I'm still in the dark. - 17:25:07 on 13 Aug 97 GMT

Marlene:CARL- I suppose that was not a very good example so here goes another one...when one is depressed, one can loose all pleasure in life. A person who is not depressed, can enjoy some of the pleasures in life but those who are depressed cannot experience pleasure. - 18:26:18 on 13 Aug 97 GMT

Carl:MARLENE: That is sensible, that i can begin to see, lateron i'll check on that other site to see what the response may hold. according to its' upfront ad, the respondents are "scientific" or scientist, i'll see, as my question for that site included the idea of depression and stress as they are bandied about by the general public, either take on a pesudo-science appearance. - 18:42:32 on 13 Aug 97 GMT

Marlene:CARL- Okay, now I see where your coming from. Depression can be caused by overwhelming stressful situations. Just because someone is under some stress does not mean they will become depressed and just because some things cause a brief period of unhappiness doesn't mean they will cause a depression. Herbal remedies, psychics and the like use these words to sell and this does not only appear to be pesudoscience but is pesudoscience. - 20:14:40 on 13 Aug 97 GMT

Adam, Pain in the ATHEIST:To Marlene...Thanks. I'll try to come up with a legitimately answerable query today. What didja think of the Comma/Kitten riddle? No good? GRANT...I don't think you meant "bystander" a dozen or so posts ago. That would be someone not involved at all; whereas you seemed to mean a well-intentioned intervener. To ALL...is anyone interested in an intellectual raid on a religious site sometime? I have a great plan for one, and although the more participants the better, I think it would come off just fine with just three of us, and would really rattle the old faithful (Am I a devious gey-ser, or what?) I'll give details if anyone expresses any interest. - 20:48:01 on 13 Aug 97 GMT

Carl:MARLENE: The general public is unfortunately and regrettably a poor indicator of the sciences, as they discuss these words of depression and stress they give it that impression of a pseudoscience. As far as i can see of this topic is that its' a brain thing and the psycho-logics of this field is mostly unknown, in view of its' relation to the brain itself. So this is the locus of my why, hesitancy, to go along with much of what i read and hear. Such talk usually seems to allow many to veer off into born again types, that 'seems' to be what i see... - 21:22:23 on 13 Aug 97 GMT

Marlene:CARL- IMHO anyone, ANYONE, who believes in and sometimes communicates with an imaginary being or presence so to speak is suffering some type of disorder. ADAM- Why not invite them to our site and ask them as Carl had mentioned to present evidence to back up their beliefs. If you've noticed many xtians come to out discussion here trying to convert us. Some with the fire and brimstone tactic and others with a "nice" tactic such as Chris. It seems that no matter what faults we find with the evidence they cling like flies to..oops!..their insane belief. - 22:56:28 on 13 Aug 97 GMT

Bill..:GRANT, Thanks for your feedback. And yes I was concerned about the alcohol advice as, in the long run, it only depresses the person more. Of course my intentions are good here and I have helped several people in dealing with different problems. Obviously if the depression is very seriously then one should consider seeking a doctor's advise. I can tell you, from experience though, that doctors only know about a third of what they need to know in effectively treating mental illnesses. Unlike mathematics, this profession is not as simple as one and one equals two. Although I have never suffered from depression (nor my wife or youngest son), my oldest son has had serious depressions at various times throughout his entire life. He is extremely bright in some areas (science, computers, electronics, etc) but the dark cloud that sits in one's brain prevents proper communication within the brain and thus gives one the feeling of loss of control of one's thoughts. Expecting the brain to be in control and rational, when depressed, is like having a broken arm and asking it to pick up a heavy weight. It's very difficult to treat oneself in the more advanced stages of depression. I have experienced in a very personal way, how serious depression can be. My oldest son, who was labeled by doctors as having psychopathic tendencies and as the most serious case they had ever seen (hence my aversion to labels), intentionally overdosed twice on their medications and went into a coma each time. I can't begin to describe how painful it was as a father to bear witness to such events, but I am sure he was in more pain. I have witnessed and experienced with him three hospital stays, a high school dropout situation, several months in jail, and many years and dollars trying to find out how to help him. Doctor's wanted him committed long term, but I refused to give up on him. There is a fine line between suicide and homicide and I have gone to sleep at night with the fear of not knowing what the morning might bring if at all. Negative experiences like these of course no one would ever choose, but I can tell you that I learned a lot during these experiences and developed some very effective skills in dealing with courts, doctors, hospitals, and life in general. I have little fear of anything now and I feel so much more capable now. My son has recently graduated from college and has been off medication for four years. He still takes the Ginkgo Biloba, that I recommended for him and you to consider, to facilitate blood flow in the brain and remove this dark cloud. Of course it doesn't work for everyone, but after much research, I have found that it's a relative benign and all natural herb. After all the time he missed he still graduated on time at 22 yrs. old with a 3.2 average in computer information systems, and is now enjoying a normal and happy life with his girlfriend in Atlanta with the earned benefits of a high paying job. I was ashamed for awhile to admit his problems at work or community, but soon learned that the truth never really hurts anyone and only develops character and self-esteem--without which life would only become a meaningless perfunctory exercise. - 0:34:50 on 14 Aug 97 GMT

Bill..:ADAM, It's sick to go after christians just for one's ego gratification. - 0:35:32 on 14 Aug 97 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE and PETER--Where ARE you????? - 0:48:46 on 14 Aug 97 GMT

Adam:To Marlene...I had in mind something a bit more fun. Bill...First, I had no intention of singling out christians, although undoubtedly they have the largest number of target sites. Second, did you really mean "ego"? I don't think there's an iota of ego gratification involved. My idea is to have a little fun and be pranksterish, while of course making a point. Third, although I respect everyone's right to believe what he or she wants to believe, I (and I assume others here) have nothing but contempt for theist's preposterous beliefs. Religion is one of the most insidious forces in human nature, and has been and will continue to be the leading cause of homicide in our history. Thus, I see nothing "sick" about deliberately rubbing theists the wrong way, be it to get them to use their brains for a change or just to remind them that we're out here (lawdy knows, ATHEISTS have been one pathetically PASSIVE oppressed minority, as oppressed minorities go). Fourth, nobody's heard my idea yet. It doesn't involve wreaking havoc on a godsquad site or anything. And FIFTH (given that there's been so much talk of drinking these days, and I have made no secret of my penchant for the holy hard cider), judge not, lest ye be jugged. SALUT! - 1:30:54 on 14 Aug 97 GMT

ADAM OUT:AND TO ALL A GOODNIGHT...I must bid y'all much ado, but first I leave y'all with the DASHBOARD PLASTIC JESI queries du jury: First, QUOTA DADAY "BUT GOD, IF A GOD THERE BE, IS THE SUBSTANCE OF MEN WHICH IS MAN." Who seddit? (And I assure you, Queen Marlene, it ain't me or one of my compadres from San Diego). Second, UNRELATED QUIZ: What Greek letters stand for the expression meaning "PHILOSOPHY: THE GUIDE OF LIFE"? See y'all tomorry wit da loot. And I'm out... - 2:01:06 on 14 Aug 97 GMT

Grant: BILL-- Apologies. I'm afraid I've taken your remarks in this area as flippant. - 4:09:03 on 14 Aug 97 GMT

Grant: ADAM-- So right. A tip of the bystandin' hat. - 5:27:53 on 14 Aug 97 GMT

Grant: CARL-- You're a good skeptic. I'm impressed that you don't accept the claim that emotional disorders exist without sufficient evidence. ;-) - 5:36:19 on 14 Aug 97 GMT

Marlene:OKAY ADAM- another quess, Bertrand Russell?????(sp) - 14:23:54 on 14 Aug 97 GMT

Carl:ADAM: ok, what is your idea? i'll have you know that i'm not above rattlin' someone's cage, now-and-then... - 15:10:42 on 14 Aug 97 GMT

Marlene:RE- Herbal Medicine- I heard on the news today that some "benign" herbal medicine have been outlawed in Florida as they contain substances such as those found in the drug "Extasy", benign???? Holistic medicine? It's a good thing proper scientific method has exposed this herb as dangerous. - 16:52:39 on 14 Aug 97 GMT

Carl:ANY: Saw a chair with cardboard held upright by tspe with this message inscribed on it; 'Maybe an atheist can't find god in he same way a thief can't find a policeman' so, i'm wonderin' what that is supposed to mean. is it packed with some kinda authority thing? is it supposed to confuse and befuddle? or, was it supposed to invite conversation? or, was it cry for attention from a lonely sort, i did not see any near it so, it sat there - 22:51:52 on 14 Aug 97 GMT

Adam HOWDY!:TO MARLENE-STILL-KEEN: (1) Hey, Herb...When I was a teenager, we used to go to a head shop & import joint at the mall and get this stuff called MAI-WONG, a battleship-grey powder marketed as both herb and incense. It tasted bad and we found the best way to ingest it was to buy a one-scoop ice-cream at Baskin-Robbins across the aisle, dig a hole in the scoop, put the powder in the hole and swallow the glob of ice-cream containing the powder. What it was was a member of the pseudo-ephedrinate group of stimulant/decongestants commonly found in cold medicine. In the large, concentrated dose, however, the stuff was blazing speed; it was dynamite with a six pack. Of course, we could all have had strokes. I understand that the stuff marketed out of Florida that was billed as an herbal stimulant was in the same family of drugs. It was outlawed. (2) Quota do jure: Nice guess, but alas, not right. My guy was basically an 19th Ceturyer, who died in 1909 when Russell was in his late 30s (as you may know, Russell lived to 97 or 98). You do indeed have the right country: England. TO CARL: I simply would suggest having one of us do a standard questioning of the roots of their beliefs (e.g. "stop quoting the bible unless you can substantiate that it is indeed gospel rather than a mere conglomeration of historical fact and legend compiled by old men over the course of time, and you can't do that by citing the bible itself"), and have a couple of other shills who act like god-folk but who join in the conversation and become intrigued, even swayed by the ATHEIST assertions. Then, boys & girls, tune in for the fun as the old faithful react to their brethren in delusion start to become "de-flocked." Yes, it's an evangelical free-for-all tonight on FOX! It's a MUST HOLY SEE!!! To ALL: The Freedom from Religion Foundation has finally responded to my "holiday equivalent" request with suggested dates in the following message: "I forwarded your message to FFRF President Anne Gaylor. Her suggestions of days Freethinkers celebrate are: - Freethought Day, October 12th: end of Salem witch trials, spectral evidence declared inadmissable in courts of law. - Robert Ingersoll's Birthday, August 11 (1833) - Elizabeth Cady Stanton's Birthday, November 12 (1815) - Thomas Paine's Birthday, January 29 (1737) - Women's Equality Day, August 26 (1920) - Bill of Rights adopted, March 4 (1789) We hope this helps you in your planning of vacations. As you can see, the dates span the calendar and all are worthy of celebration. Sincerely, Shelly Johnson for FFRF" I must say that while I recognize that religion is oppressive to women, I am puzzled by the apparent emphasis on women's rights, which I do not equate with ATHEISM. At any rate, the most important date, 10/12, falls on a Sunday this year. Go figure. Sorry for the long posting, all you god-sneering kinfolk. - 23:04:50 on 14 Aug 97 GMT

Bill..:ADAM, Thanks for responding to my post. I have posted to you about 4 or 5 times and you only responded to one of them. I was beginning to wonder what it would take to get you to respond. Of course the word "sick" was too strong and not really appropriate. Without me judging your intentions, I will say that my view is that I am not concerned with what others believe or think about me, christian or otherwise, unless they first step on my personal opinion right. Then they become open to reciprocal conversation in which they are going to have to answer my questions, if they want the conversation to continue, and not just preach at me. I will discuss anything with anyone as long as there is mutual respect and reciprocity. I just don't see why people feel the need to seek out christians, who are not presently bothering them, for the sake of entertainment? Live and let live! - 0:08:15 on 15 Aug 97 GMT

Adam WHA?:TO CARL: Maybe a theist can find god the same way young children find quarters under their pillows left by the tooth fairy. Put that on yer chair and fix it with tspe. - 0:09:19 on 15 Aug 97 GMT

Bill..:GRANT, When I said that I have not been depressed before, I was only referring to major depression. I am sure that everyone has had some form of minor, or manageable, depression from time to time. I used to start to get depressed when I was locked up on a submarine and underwater for 60 days at a time, but I learned to exercise in order to alleviate the sadness. I think a lot of people's mental problems are related to blood flow/oxygen to the brain. Things like stress tends to constrict capillaries and deprive the brain of needed blood flow. Meditation and relaxation techniques conversely act to enhance well being. Herbs like Ginkgo act to open up capillaries in the brain and thus improve memory and well being. Of course herbs can be dangerous as Marlene has pointed out, but Ginkgo has been used in China for thousands of years and this herb comes from one of the oldest trees on earth. I think herbs have their place is enhancing one's life. - 0:09:41 on 15 Aug 97 GMT

Adam NO WAY:TO BILL: Live and let DIE!!! Again, not to single out xtians, but religious folk scrawl graffiti all over all the money I have to spend and nail it to the walls of courtrooms in which I argue cases and serve on juries (and make me take an ALTERNATE official oath in front of everyone or beg the guidance of their fictional leader. Look around the world at people who are killing other people over religion: RELIGION IN ITSELF IS A HARMFUL FORCE of HUMAN NATURE; anything is justifiable when you're on the side of god, right? Who ever died under the sword of ATHEISM (not counting Stalinist, etc., who were atheists who killed theists, but certainly not for the cause of ATHEISM, but rather for supression of political dissent). I repect your desire to keep all such matters individual, but religion has retarded the course of human enlightenment as no other obstacle has, and my getting involved in chat sessions like this one and contacting the FFRF and AmerAtheists to help me assert my religious freedom are steps in the direction of becoming an ANTI-VANGELIST activist. Maybe you'll hear about me someday and say, "I knew him when all he did was post quizzes on the chat line." As Joette pointed out, how ironic for someone with my name. IS ANYONE WITH ME? STAND UP & SPEAK OUT AGAINST THE INSIDIOUS PLAGUE on the HUMAN INTELLECT KNOWN AS RELIGION, and let the mythologically encumbered masses know what slaves they be! Offer them the a sweet taste of freedom of thought! ATHEISTS are in one respect a rung up on the evolutionary ladder than theists, and in that one respect they are not our equals. - 0:25:04 on 15 Aug 97 GMT

Adam NYQUIL:To MARLENE: I'm about out for the night. Given that you're the only one interested in the quizzes, I think I'll put 'em on hiatus. The source of the atheist quote was British poet and literary critic ALGERNON CHARLES SWINBURNE (1837-1909). The answer to "What Greek letters stand for the expression meaning "PHILOSOPHY: THE GUIDE OF LIFE"? (You'll be sorry you missed it!) are PHI BETA KAPPA. Isn't that a key query? SEE Y'ALL TOMORROW, before I head up to Yank-me Stadium to watch the visiting Texas Rangers lasso the Bronx Bummers. and I'm out. - 0:40:18 on 15 Aug 97 GMT

Bill..:ADAM, While you and I don't relate to religion in general, I think it does serve some people well. True many people historically have died in the name of religion, but many good works have resulted because of a person's belief in a higher power or service to community and others. Not all religious people are bad. It's the religious fundie element that needs to be given a reality check. I have been somewhat laconic with a few of those fundies that tried to evangelized or shame me. I think tolerance and honesty works better in dealing with those who might not be as rational as we think we are. I have no problem spending money with, "In God We Trust" on it either. This statement is personally meaningless to me unless I choose to give it meaning. Most problems in the world are from humans forming coalitions with the purpose of overthrowing some other coalition, so they can then replace the old power with the new. And if you succeed in your Anti-Vangelist campaign and we do in fact hear about you one day, then will your organization become the new ideology with, "No God Is Good" on all our money? - 1:31:08 on 15 Aug 97 GMT

Grant: ADAM-- I like the puzzles. I just never know the answers. The jokes? Eh. BUT, the wordplay is gourmet quality. My current favorite is "I must bid y'all much ado." - 4:36:18 on 15 Aug 97 GMT

Grant: MARLENE-- I agree about the herbal medicines. I think people people who self medicate generally, through ignorance, tend to overmedicate, medicate disproportionately to requirements, and often medicate imagined or incorrectly diagnosed illnesses. I'm content to let the medical types do the experimenting. The results are not so subjective. - 4:57:47 on 15 Aug 97 GMT

Grant: BILL-- I don't know how it got to be rag on Bill week, but phrases like "enhance well being," leave an unpleasant new-agey aftertaste for me. I don't doubt that herbs can be effective. I just choose to use diet, exercise, and doctors. - 5:06:23 on 15 Aug 97 GMT

Grant: CARL-- I would have liked to talk about depression but I've been working ungodly hours, (is it OK to say that? Geez, maybe all of my hours are ungodly.) but I don't have much time, and you guys are all gone when I get home (sniff.) I joke around, but your questions are good. - 5:21:52 on 15 Aug 97 GMT

Carl:ADAM: you may find after awhile, if not already so, that the BILL party is one of the craftier jc types who while not turning the other cheek, he is the proverbial pillsbury Doughboy, sheltered by the impervious notion of a "belief system". I share this observation because when i first exchanged ideas with him my early impression of him was best summed up with the phrase that, "he's slipperier than a priest!" or eel if you'd prefer. BILL i'm unarmed and just waitin' for payday. - 17:54:30 on 15 Aug 97 GMT

Adam BACK ON THE JAMMIE:To Bill, Carl, et (Jo-et)? al...I guess this all boils down to whether you're merely an ATHEIST, or take the extra step of being an ENEMY of RELIGION. Bill seems to suggest that I would supress religion were it in my power to do so. This is not the case. I would, however, love to be in part responsible for religion dying of its own intellectual bankruptcy. As for all the wonderful things that purportedly derive from religion, or its benefits for some people, all of these could exist in the absence of religion, and there is nothing inherent in the belief itself that fosters good qualities. For example, someone who behaves morally primarily out of fear of divine retribution is necessarily less moral than I am, for I behave morally without such a big-stick impetus; I behave morally because it is my obligation under a social contract with other people...it is what I must give up, despite immoral tendencies, in order to have a reasonable expectation of moral behavior from others. Similarly, charitable efforts are all the more so if they are driven by a desire to help, or to benefit society by helping others become viable and productive, than if the impetus is to score some more brownie point with old St. Pete. You name a purported benefit of religion, and I'll tell you how it can exist outside the sphere of mythology and ignorance. However, acceptance of the existence of a higher, controlling authority NECESSARILY leads to the adaptation of god's will to suit immoral human ends. In a few centuries, when (hopefully) only the most primitive among us still subscribe to religion, they'll look back at our era and say "Incredible! Here they were, just beginning to understand the extent and origin of the universe, the inner workings of the sub-sub-atomic forces...for chrissake, they took samples of the surface of Mars by remote control...and yet 95% or more of them, including almost all of the so-called intelligensia of the day, were unwilling to renounce millenia-old mystical beliefs of their primitive forebearers. What a paradox! (By the way, Grant, that would be when Ben Casey meets Dr. Killdare)." To Grant...How much wood would a Grant Wood paint if a Grant Wood could paint wood? - 18:42:39 on 15 Aug 97 GMT

Adam HE SAID, QUIZZICALLY :To All...Quote of the day (WHO TOLD YOU THAT?) "PRISONS ARE BUILT WITH STONES OF LAW, BROTHELS WITH BRICKS OF RELIGION." Religio-quiz of the day: WHAT QUEEN WAS FORCED TO ABDICATE in THE 1890s BY SANFORD DOLE'S MISSIONARY PARTY? Answers forthwithcoming, unless you hell-boubd hellcats can figure 'em out. - 19:14:56 on 15 Aug 97 GMT

Carl:ADAM: speaking of being unarmed, an individual with Louisianan ties says that state quite recently ok'd a shoot to kill law that aims at carjackers! Wow! While we few elsewhere propound the good values of the intellect, how can anyone explain that kind of action. By the way the points you make are clearly good but they are also that which comprises the war-zone. There is no sound plan imaginable in order to wage a battle of good bad, right wrong, or even up down, when someone- as a theist, chooses the god thing, with which they become totally ignorant, and as the contest is for thought, what can be done for one who choses ignorance? - 19:29:22 on 15 Aug 97 GMT

Peter:PETER---I say religious peolple will be good people not because of--but in SPITE of their religion. If one is has the feeling to be "good" or "generous" or be motivated to act in any many seen to be moral, his religion teaches him that this comes from the grace of God, not from his own "evil" soul which of course has been that way since his birth. To me, this is the most anti-human act imaginable. On eis to look upon himself as contemptible, only to be saved by the grace of God, rather than recoginizing that man by his own nature, can cohabitate peacefully and be able to identify moral behavior by his own efforts. Moral codes as outlined by reality are done so based on arbitrary commands of some "higher source" when in fact they were just written down by ancient control freaks. - 0:41:46 on 16 Aug 97 GMT

Bill..:ADAM, You ask, "You name a purported benefit of religion, and I'll tell you how it can exist outside the sphere of mythology and ignorance." Yes you can tell me how it exists outside the sphere of mythology and ignorance, for you personally. You don't have the right to tell someone else that they have to follow the beat of you're drummer. Anytime a person views his personal problems as being "out-there", instead of "in-here" (with-in), he/she suffers from a dearth of self-esteem in my view. If you're not already happy from just being who you are, then I submit that you're never going to be happy trying to change the world to conform to you're illusive ideals. - 0:59:01 on 16 Aug 97 GMT

Bill..:CARL, You're a riot! Crafty jc type, huh? Slipperier than a priest….The proverbial Pillsbury Doughboy….tee hee heeee! Thanks, you furnished me with my laugh for the day. Let's see, aside from the aforementioned, in recent weeks other accusations have been, new-age, condescending, politically/gender-ly incorrect, UFO-ologists. In the past it has been pantheist, druids, buddhist, christian, spiritualist, NDE-ists…..etc. I must ask; Can it be possible that I am really "all" of these things, or maybe just "none" of these things? Of course I have mentioned that I am writing here to improve my "effective writing" skills, but no one has considered the possibility that maybe it's just a video game and pure entertainment! I would hate to think that we left some other possibility out here. Yes let's see, the challenge is, "what situation can Bill get into this week, and work his way out of." This could be a fun game don't you think? BTW, where is Jo-et? She's not playing with me here lately. I miss her. - 1:00:03 on 16 Aug 97 GMT

Since all Gsds were made by humans for humans,this implys that God exist in the Culture of each socity So God is heither good or evil it only depends on the culture one lives in, Or if we view all religion as evil then we are no better than a theist who belives that anything man made is evil also, I can accept the good of religion but keep in my mind that God is man made for his socity's benfit - 10:14:20 on 16 Aug 97 GMT

Bill..:UNNAMED POSTER, Good point! PETER, I agree that for you and I it would be anti-human to see one's self as an "unworthy sinner" (personally, I love myself..ha!), but for some people this higher power concept keeps them from totally self-destructing and subsequently destroying themselves and others. So which case would be better for society? I don't believe we have the right to judge their reality, or unreality, unless it poses and imposition directly upon us. Then we can justly offer a "reality check" based on our rights to self-determination. To try to control, manipulate, or intimidate others into accepting our view of reality, makes us no better. We ARE our only responsibility. - 12:28:34 on 16 Aug 97 GMT

Peter:Bill-- I don't think teaching one to see reality would involve, controlling, manipulating, or intimidating--unless you consider compulsory scholl attendance for children up to the age of 16 years an act of controlling. "Critical Thinking" is one subject I think should be taught to all those at a young age, and a good dose of this will keep one's mind more active with the "real world". I would consider having this ability taught to our children the tools to prevent them from having their minds controlled. - 13:48:02 on 16 Aug 97 GMT

Joette (wants all those plastic statuettes for herself):-->ADAM..the answer to the Sanford Dole question is: QUEEN LILIUOKALANI of Hawaii. See, we Canucks know more about your country's history than anyone! You see, any example of divide and conquer sticks in our pacifist craw! - 15:27:07 on 16 Aug 97 GMT

Joette (back to play):--->BILL...thank you for sharing your son's story. Never be ashamed to talk about it, as mental illness is no different than physical illness. Try not to be so cyncial about the medical profession; it takes time to find the right person for treatment, just as it takes time to find the best bank in town - they are only offering a service, and some are good while many are not. I have had the same experience and it took years to find the right medical team to treat the problem in my household, but I have much confidence in them, and because of my own experience, know the right questions to ask. It's all a matter of education. - 15:32:12 on 16 Aug 97 GMT

Joette (again and again and again):-->ADAM...me again! The answer to the quotable quote inquiry is: WILLIAM BLAKE (1757-1827). I'm going to have to build a mantle for all those plastic statuettes. And now I have one for everyone...WHO SAID.."You ask me if I believe in God. How can I believe in God when just this morning I got my tongue caught in the roll bar of my typewriter?" (see Adam for your award) - 15:50:18 on 16 Aug 97 GMT

Marlene:PETER- Our children are our future. If they were taught critcal thinking from a young age, they would hopefully grow up to use the ability. This could start at home and if not at home at least at school. Schools in this area have a religion class. While it's not a class that has to be attended, it can provide the student with 1/2 a credit. If this religion class taught many different religions or a critcal thinking approach to religion, I could see it being worth the credit but they do not. They teach xtianity and only xtianity. They neglect to teach the history behind the bible, scientific method to apply on the so-called miracles in the bible, and the morality of the bible as opposed to the morality in not only our own society but to those of other societies that practice a different religion. - 19:39:14 on 16 Aug 97 GMT

Marlene who loves guessing games:JOETTE- I'll guess , Andy Rooney??? - 19:41:41 on 16 Aug 97 GMT

Joette:-->MARLENE..a great guess, but not the correct one. Andy Rooney is an outspoken atheist so it could easily be something he would say. I wanted to tell you, I was in Ottawa for the greatest part of the week, and went to see Rideau Hall. This is the first year the "ordinary" person can see it, and it made me sick! There are 135 rooms, only 10 of which are used, and as I gazed around at its opulence I thought, "for this I pay taxes??" For those of you that do not know Rideau Hall, it is the home of our Governor-General, the Queen's representative in Canada. It is purely a traditional role that should be banned......(all they do is throw garden parties and have other heads of state plant trees) - 20:54:09 on 16 Aug 97 GMT

Bill..:PETER, I think with children, most of their social and developmental skills are formed by age four. The parents should have had the most influence during this time unless they both worked. Believe me I have written and voiced my displeasure to a couple of schools that allowed what I considered inappropriate teachings or indoctrinations of kids. One I particularly remember was when my kids had just moved into a new middle school and the principle allowed a converted X-Hells Angel to come and preach to the kids about religion and how it had saved him from destruction. The kids got all worked up and started singling out those kids that weren't "saved." I was pissed! Currently we have guidelines for guest speakers to schools and their presentations have to be approved. Mostly what I was referring to in my previous post was in relation to adults. I agree with and respect a person's right to be an "atheist" with sincere personal convictions, but not a proactive "ATHEIST" that wants to convert the world to their way of thinking. The latter, ATHEIST, has an insecurity problem I think. - 22:49:29 on 16 Aug 97 GMT

Bill..:JOETTE, Thank God….whoops! Uh..Goodness, you didn't leave us….just playing! Hahaha! Concerning your post, I agree one should never be ashamed of discussing "supposed" negative experiences. The question I have is, are these negative events really negative overall? After awhile the good and the bad events seem to merge closer together in forming the overall picture. Some of the greatest gains I have made in life, financially and emotionally, came as a result of experiencing some severe negative events. I am still benefiting today in many ways from those past bad experiences, so I see today a much smaller gap between the supposed good and the supposed bad. Presently, while I don't choose to experience bad things, I do find myself choosing to dwell in the bad experience, when it comes my way, for awhile to make sure that I give it just consideration. Does this sound strange to you? And yes, I am somewhat cynical and skeptical of psychological analysis. I have seen sooo many families that didn't make it under their professional guidance. If I had of listened to all their advice, without becoming proactive myself, I am convinced my family would have become a statistic as well. Maybe the education level is better up there? - 22:50:22 on 16 Aug 97 GMT

Peter:Bill--What is an "atheists" way of thinking? An atheist is just someone who does not believe in something--and does not infer any positive beliefs. - 0:01:53 on 17 Aug 97 GMT

Joette:-->BILL..negative experiences are negative experiences. Maybe a person can learn from them, and now how to deal with other negative events, but I personally believe that overall, the bad will outweigh the good. How many times can a person deal with adversity without some sort of inner turmoil? Too much can make a person neurotic, or clinically depressed. If someone constantly dealing with adversity finds that it is making them a better person, they are either in a state of denial, or believe that looking for the gray cloud instead of the silver lining is the proper way to look at the world. Bill, if you could do it again, wouldn't you just love to have a well child instead of one who has an illness? Maybe I sound bitter, but I know what my answer to that would be. - 1:20:40 on 17 Aug 97 GMT

RON...(I met a nice xtian)...: Hi ALL!!! I missed you all very much, thought I'd pop in between anger spells. I was sitting in my bedroom the other night staring down the barrel of my .45 weighing the consequences of life or death when the phone rang....I was a nice guy I work with in another department in the MIS group. He had heard I was going thru tough times and wondered how I was doing. He knew I'm an Atheist and I've debated him during lunch but he was sincere in how I was doing. I found it refreshing to see a xtian praticing what they preach. I talked with him for an hour and felt very ashamed of tasting my blue steel Colt. We've met several times since then and have become friends. He saved my life. He said that I had to come up with a plan and goals and I did. I'm no longer hurt over my wife leaving, I'M PISSED OFF! Monday, I bring in the lawyers. Unleash the dogs of war! As for my new friend, he can't have my soul, but he has my respect. I love you all for bearing with my laundry. And if there's any xtians here who would like to pray for me, go ahead. - 1:42:43 on 17 Aug 97 GMT

RON...oops...: "I" should have been "It". - 1:43:27 on 17 Aug 97 GMT

Marlene:RON- Good to hear you've come to grips with your separation. Life isn't easy but that's life! I tend to think like Joette on that level. Although we learn from the shit that happens, and shit does happen, if we had the choice of changing the situation, I would. It's too bad nice people like the guy at work that helped you, couldn't just be a nice guy because he is "caring" rather than "xtian". Does caring need to be associated with the supernatural? I hope not. - 2:55:45 on 17 Aug 97 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- It kind of feels like we still have the damn monarchy, no??? - 2:57:38 on 17 Aug 97 GMT

Marlene forever seeing a black cloud when a BS arises:BILL- I'm also skeptical of psychology, most especially the way it is sold to the public. I'm very concerned about it becoming another damn religion. Each sect of it for those who rever the creator of it . For example Freudians, Jungs, Spockens etc. , you get the drift. - 3:03:37 on 17 Aug 97 GMT

Marlene ...full blast!:PETER- Time and time again, the theists or agnostics seem to try to attach a BS to those who do not accept the supernatural. I really don't know how we can make it clear that the only thing atheists have in common is that THEY DO NOT ACCEPT THE SUPERNATURAL! - 3:07:38 on 17 Aug 97 GMT

Joette:--->MARLENE..we must seperate psychology from psychiatry, no? - 3:44:50 on 17 Aug 97 GMT

Joette:-->RON..glad to hear that your hurt has become anger. You are actually going through a grieving process now...I know that you are smart enough to channel your anger so as to avoid hurting your son (and yourself) in the process. Never mind about the dirty laundry; I think many of us here have gone through what is happening to you right now, and it ain't pretty. - 3:47:51 on 17 Aug 97 GMT

RON...--->Marlene...: No, that's just the thing, he's just caring, doesn't care about my lack of faith. It's amazing. A human caring for a stranger, what a concept. - 3:57:03 on 17 Aug 97 GMT

RON...--->Joette...: And it's going to get very ugly soon. I plan to picket her parents house with signs like "I love my wife"...."I want my family back". Her parents are fed up with her living there already. I was planning on giving her the divorce, but now, I can drag it out for 18 months or so. She can't afford it. I can. - 4:04:36 on 17 Aug 97 GMT

Grant: RON-- Am very glad you got through it. Just curious- Is your friend a depression sufferer? I only ask because it seems to me that only they know how to help. - 6:56:24 on 17 Aug 97 GMT

Grant: MARLENE-- JOETTE-- I'm not sure I agree about the bad experiences. Of coarse I would rather a child, or any other person not have problems, but when looking at my own troubles and problems of the past, though I would have certainly changed them at the time if I could have, I wouldn't change them now. They are part of what I am and what I know, and as Bill says, they do make you stronger and more aware. I heard an interview with a gay man. He was asked if there were a pill that would make you heterosexual, would you take it? He said no. I got thinking if there was a pill that would make me believe in god, would I take it? I really wanted to believe when I was young and knew no other atheists. But the answer is no, I woundn't take it, and if a pill could erase my past problems I wouldn't take it either. Here's the part you won't like. There is a pill that would probably stop my depression but I don't want to take it. My depression made me aware of the fallibilty of the mind and caused me to begin the think systematically and skeptically, which led to my atheism. It has influenced my tastes in art, music, literature, etc. It is part of my identity. Rob says this is a symptom of the illness, and I think he is probably right, but I feel how I feel. BTW, I don't look for a grey cloud or for a silver lining. I just look for what whatever is there. Denial? I guess that's what I'm asking. - 7:54:51 on 17 Aug 97 GMT

Bill..:RON, You know I care,, unconditionally. I just sent you another email..BTW. MARLENE, Blind faith will get you killed, no? PETER, The "atheist" way of thinking is as you described. The "ATHEIST" way of thinking, that I referred to, would be a person with a proactive agenda, that attempts to form coalitions or groups, with the purpose of doing away with religions. In other words, they're someone who "initiates" a fight with the purpose of destroying something, instead of someone who vigorously defends oneself when their space has been invaded. - 11:56:21 on 17 Aug 97 GMT

Bill..:JOETTE, The bad situations that I had tended to cycle in magnitude so I had time to breathe and think rationally from time to time. You're emotions will destroy you, if you allow them, and I think it was a matter of self-preservation and subsequent maturity that I "compartmentalize" my thoughts to some degree in very bad situations. For example, I would only think about his situation at certain predetermined times each day and would try very hard to go on with my life the rest of the time. They say you can't control you're negative emotions, but I think with practice and determination you can to a major degree. I think the longer I am in a bad experience the more detached emotionally I become from the experience. For example at first I blamed myself for my son's problems and the overwhelming "embarrassment" and "guilt" slowly became cancers that I could no longer afford, as my energy was needed just to deal with the situation and to stay afloat myself. My self-esteem increased over time as I mentally eliminated these self-persecuting negative thoughts. And now I am convinced that these types of thoughts were, all along, the enemy to the human spirit and were just useless obstacles to overcome. One should NEVER choose self-persecution no matter what you do or someone else does to you. I just rationally look at a situation to see what there is that I need to learn from it. After eliminating a lot of the mental negativity, I find myself now almost obstinately choosing to dwell in the situation so as to say, "Yes I see you (negative experience) and I am giving you my full respectful attention, for a period of time, but I will jump out when I am ready." Also I start to think, "Oh, this must be another opportunity to get ahead" (turn a lemon into lemonade). It becomes a game. This approach to me has increased my emotional power, and self-esteem, over the ever-present dark clouds of life. - 11:57:00 on 17 Aug 97 GMT

Peter:BILL-- You mean like good ole' loved-by-all Carrie Drake? MARLENE--I guess this thing about the common ground shared by atheists is one of these things that will end up being repeated over and over and over again ( although I think Bill now has got a handle on it ) and it will never sink in. Atheists will be continued to be called communists, witches, devil-worshipper etc. etc. Kind of reminds me of how so many gun-touting red-necks associated with the American Rifle Association for some reason fail to grasp the line " for the purposes of forming a militia" right after the declaration that they have the RIGHT to bear arms. - 13:36:44 on 17 Aug 97 GMT

Bill..:PETER, I hate to make judgements about individuals who arn't currently here, so I will just say that I can't disagree with you. JOETTE, I neglected to answer you're question, "Bill, if you could do it again, wouldn't you just love to have a well child instead of one who has an illness?" My answer to that is "no brain-er"; Of course I would choose a healthy happy child. None of us chose to even be here (born) and there is a deterministic element about the universe that deals each of us a particular hand to play with. For whatever reason, I had the child I had and I will NEVER look back with regret. I don't think it's what fate you are given that is important, but rather the dignity and character with which you accept and deal with this fate that's important. I disagree that negative experiences will only have a negative overall effect on one's life. One might be convinced that this is true, but it's really you're choice! - 13:54:47 on 17 Aug 97 GMT

Joette:-->BILL/GRANT...I applaud your attitude about dealing with negative situations, but do you ever think that you really don't like the person you have become as a result of the adversity you have had to deal with? Have you had counselling to help you start to love yourself? I am not sure that someone can go through so much without it one day causing your world to crash down around your shoulders. Comprendez? - 15:09:54 on 17 Aug 97 GMT

PETER:---BILL---This is where you and I differ--I love to make judgements all the time about things events and people--if they are here or not. Their abscence does not preclude them from me letting others know exactly what I think of them! In other words, I thought, and I still think that Carrie Drake is a doofus. - 15:50:17 on 17 Aug 97 GMT

Grant: JOETTE-- I think dealing with adversity makes one like him/herself more, not less. I don't see a need to love oneself, or hate oneself, only to understand oneself. A person who has dealt with adversity may be less likely to have their world come crashing down. The wife is having an adversity today. We spent yesterday at the beach. She got burned to a crisp. - 17:18:23 on 17 Aug 97 GMT

Joette:-->GRANT...THE wife? 50 lashes with the politically incorrect wet noodle! - 19:45:46 on 17 Aug 97 GMT

Grant: JOETTE-- Yeah, I usually call her my sweetie, but I thought you would ding me. - 23:20:44 on 17 Aug 97 GMT

Bill..:PETER, Man what a long day and I finally got my son off to college. I think we agree on the "atheism" thing but differ on the "judgement" thing. Around here, where I live, people are more respected if they personally confront one another when they have personal differences, rather than talk about them behind their backs. It takes more courage to face them and honestly explain you're judgmental perspective of them. To me it's no different here when talking about someone, in a judgmental way, when he or she is not currently present to defend himself or herself. How much courage does it take to call someone a "doofus" by typing these words on this screen, when you are protected by you're virtual electronic anonymity? If you can even measure the courage, then subtract off some more due to the fact that they aren't even present. - 1:38:43 on 18 Aug 97 GMT

Bill..:JOETTE, Concerning you're post about me liking the person I have become, I feel very successful and good about what I have accomplished and who I am. If I died tomorrow I will have lived a worthy and honorable life. The rest of my life is just the cream on the cake. Having had to deal with negative situations (valleys) has only enhanced the magnitude and freshness of my current reality (mountaintop). Valleys offer depth to one's relative perspective in life and I wouldn't change a thing. I think you are making an unqualified judgement about me when you say, "Have you had counseling to help you start to love yourself?", when you don't even know me. You're not the only one to think that I am somehow holding everything inside and that one day it will all surface and I will come crashing down. My oldest son's problems were so severe, I went to a week of live-in family counseling (including my wife and youngest son) at one facility. The oldest son had already been there for the previous two weeks and this was the third week of inpatient. We lived together with three other families, separate from the patients, who also had severe family problems. For the first two days we were counseled with the other families all day and into the evening. On the third day the group included the patients and we all sat around in a circle with two trained counselors who were there to guide you and play referee--things got very heated at times--as we all looked into each family problem one at a time. The families were tired by the third day and we had homework and questions to answer at night so, when we grouped with the patients the next day, it would lead you and the patient to break down and let it all come out. As we all sat in a circle facing each other, I like many of the rest had to go up, one at a time, and stand behind our patients (son) with my hands on his shoulders. I basically then had to tell the group my feelings, and the pain I had experience in dealing with his situation. Of course many couldn't even hardly speak as the tears profusely flowed, but I was determined to cover everything, pausing occasionally as I started to choke up and then continued. As I spoke and looked out at the group, both counselors and others had tears in their eyes. It is one of the hardest things I have ever had to do, but in the long run this session somehow lead to healing of sorts. On the last day when the head counselor was summing up the week's events and talking about each family, he said that he had been in hundreds of group sessions in his lifetime and he hadn't witnessed anyone with such highly develop "coping skills" as he had seen in me. So "yes", I have had counseling and I can tell you that I would never have endured that week if it were not for the fact that I do have a very high self-respect and self-esteem. And "no" I don't expect my world to one day come crashing down around my shoulders. I'm having too much fun playing. I can't play anymore tonight Jo-et and I have to go to work tomorrow so sleep tight! - 1:39:33 on 18 Aug 97 GMT

RON...--->Bill...: I know you care my friend. I got your latest email but my ISP mail server seems to be down tonight. I can see now why some people would turn to organized religion during times like these. It would be good for my heart to "make believe" I had a shoulder to cry on anytime I needed it. I've talked with an ex-Episcopal priest recently, he was turned away by his own church. He counsels poor people in shelters now for nothing. These people I like, real humans caring for complete strangers. My plans are simple now, Sue and I have agreed on an easy divorce (I can't stop her) with minimal child support. We will sell our home for a good profit and I'll turn around and buy another home in the same sub-division. My son needs a home to play in for many years to come and my daughter will need a real home to when she visits. I will make myself sickenly sweet to Sue after the divorce and maybe, just maybe, I can win her back in a year or so. I would walk around the world for her. I love her. She and my son are my world. I've been true to my vows and even though her mother threatened to shot me (again) today, I'd do anything for her family. Call me old fashioned, call me stupid, whatever. I believe that when you love a woman, you love with 100% of your self. I've heard several women tell me they wished their husbands loved them as much as I love Susan. I'm just babbling now, but hey...I've got no one else to "talk" to. Here come the tears again....good night, and peace. - 2:15:16 on 18 Aug 97 GMT

PETER---:Bill---OK Bill, here it is --right to your face: I think YOU are a doofus. I think you are a long-winded and boring doofus. Now, is that better? - 2:50:13 on 18 Aug 97 GMT

Joette:--->BILL..how could you read an unqualified judgement about yourself when I asked you and Grant if you have ever had counselling. Not all conversations are about you! It was an innocent question, and you suddenly decide that I am making judgements. I not once told you that your world will come crashing down...in fact, ladida to you for having such a strong psyche. Most of us mere mortals need outside help every once in awhile, and are not ashamed to admit it. Now everyone, can we PLEASE talk about something else like say, ummmm, religion, or the lack of it? - 2:54:24 on 18 Aug 97 GMT

Joette:-->FOR ANYONE WHO CARES...the answer to yesterday's quote is (drum roll please...) Woody Allen. - 2:57:44 on 18 Aug 97 GMT

Marlene:RON- I think your decision to make this seperation/divorce a peaceful one is wise but I hope your not doing this because someday Sue may want you back, I hope your doing it for the sake of your son. If he can see that both of you love him and can maturely deal with each other he'll be the luckiest little boy in town. - 3:31:03 on 18 Aug 97 GMT

Marlene in a foul mood !!!:PETER- Whether it be a xtian or an overinflated egotistical fern-sniffer that barks their lurve for their neighbor, it pisses me right off when all they are, are bark. There are so many two-faced do-gooders out there that spew no-god is good out one side of their mouths and god-bless-you out the other side. Dingus, doofus, you've gotten the plastic this time and I say "You GO BOY!" - 3:38:07 on 18 Aug 97 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- Woody Allen?? Is he atheist??? All I hear about him is that thing with Mia's daughter. - 3:40:48 on 18 Aug 97 GMT

Grant: JOETTE-- I don't know... It's kind of limiting if we can't talk about our mental illnesses. Well, OK. - 4:50:32 on 18 Aug 97 GMT

Carl:OPEN: Are you folks settin'up a group hug, have any here seen the movie "The Crucible" it is about times past, supposedly, but we have seen situations as portrayed in that movie where we are and even here ob this discussion line, the movies impression i thought easily applied to C.Drake who seemed to see spirits everywhere. the crucible as s story of imaginary stuff also explains the story line of "Ghosts of Mississippi". Both portray extremes of thought. - 14:28:36 on 18 Aug 97 GMT

Joette:-->GRANT..I am not trying to limit anything, as it is not my place to do so. Hell, I could keep up with the best of you in the mental illness category, but I don't think this is the place for it. There is a depression site if anyone is interested...(it's called Village 2000). - 14:31:56 on 18 Aug 97 GMT

Joette:--->CARL..in haven't seen "The Crucible" as most of the critics crucified it (pun intended). I read the book in high school as it was one of the books we studied. It is a good read, and the xtians in this area tried to have it banned from the circulum for fear of having the tender youth be given both sides of a perspective. They lost that battle, but managed to have "Catcher in the Rye" banned because of its profanity. Fools! - 14:36:15 on 18 Aug 97 GMT

RON...--->Marlene...: I'm allowing a peaceful end to my marriage because I want the pain between Sue and I to end. I want my son to be happy and I do want Sue back, I won't deny that. I feel like a caged animal waiting for a dinner that may never come. - 17:29:55 on 18 Aug 97 GMT

Carl:JOETTE: Censorers', like any theist, can make mountains out of molehills. A good example of this view began when i read at an Ingersol site one of his speeches where he points out that the word 'belief' is for the most part missing in the bible. the few party's involved with that word's appearance are paul and johns story telling. i checked on those, it is accurate in terms of the catholic version of the bible, my view was based on the aristotellian logic of a subject predicate connection, in only john's gospel does the jc character point out the requirement of 'believing' in that name, the other gospel versions, luke never uses that word, appear twice and three times but always lack that aristotellian connection i ustilised. Somebody way back when and just as nowadays, want something. i see PETER and I guess BILL wrestle about qualities that make up certain types, the single isomorphic aspect of atheism i find acceptable is that they seem to prefer "to think" be this at it may, as it all finally comes out in the wash, anyways. Some theists nearby speak about smart people who can't see the bible as a tool for living good. - 17:30:38 on 18 Aug 97 GMT

Diana:I am an Atheist - 17:31:04 on 18 Aug 97 GMT

Joette:-->CARL..do these nearby theists also see the violence and hatred much expounded in that same "good book"? - 17:53:15 on 18 Aug 97 GMT

Joette (welcome wagon lady):--->DIANA..welcome to the world outside the closet! - 17:54:56 on 18 Aug 97 GMT

Carl:JOETTE: these folks, don't want to or won't make that sort of connection to their bible myth, that requires the application of logic, everyday they read some little thing inspired by their jc. They can't see a cause and effect relationship with the history of their faith nor even the nonsense destruction within its storys. they say its not the god doing those things or of the storys the message is what is important, forget about the deeds. you know the story, about here BILL drags in his bs so things can be nice and good as always, within a belief system. - 20:03:48 on 18 Aug 97 GMT

Carl:ANY: Back to movies, of sorts anyone seen disney's hunchback o'notre dame, it and the crucible make a good match in portraying things as those kinds o'folks are concerned. - 20:50:04 on 18 Aug 97 GMT

ADAM PILLORI, BACK with a BANGED:To All...Well, having returned after the weekend, it seems as though I've really been dragged through the mud for adopting the anti-vangelist position. Well, friends indeed, I take well to the mud, for my name (from the original Hebrew in Genesis) means "from the earth"‹i.e. my name IS mud. Might I suggest to those who denounce someone crusading for what we all know is right would have told Copernicus to let the religious geocentrists believe what they want despite evidence to the contrary; or, for that matter, would not care to speak out against racial supremacists, nazis, the inquisition, and I could go on and on. Again, I will re-emphasize that I would not outlaw religion if I could, but to hasten its demise as one of the single most retarding and destructive forces in the history of human intellect-that is, by getting religious-heads to think about and ultimately reject it-is indeed a noble cause. This is not simply a live-and-let-live proposition, o passivist masses: The god squad is in power, is wrong, is deluded, is tax-exempt, and will continue to wreak death and destruction in the name of god on a daily basis throughout the world. I feel not a modicum of reservation in opposing and renouncing religion at every turn and with decibels and dialogue................To PETER...I'll have you know that I'm no NRA member and don't own a gun, but I am a non-practicing attorney, a practicing editor, and very much a libertarian. On that basis, sez me: you'd bnetter clarify your 2d Amendment position if you want to be taken seriously in a debate on gun control, to wit: The actual language that you (no doubt, unintentionally) butchered is "A WELL REGULATED MILITIA, BEING NECESSARY TO THE SECURITY OF A FREE STATE, THE RIGHT OF THE PEOPLE TO KEEP AND BEAR ARMS, SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED."------------- As editor, I say this: although the opening of the amendment clearly states its underlying impetus, the wording of the amendment in no way limits the broad protections the latter half affords. That is, it does NOT say that the right to keep and bear shall be infringed only to the extent that it does not impair the ability to regulate a militia; it flat-out and unambiguously states that the right shall not be abriged, period (not comma-and we now all know the difference between a comma and a kitten, don't we, cats?). I assure you that this is a neutral, lawyerly/editorial reading of the amendment, made more credible by the fact that it in no way is swayed by my position on gun control (which I haven't had any need to disclose). Sorry about the long post, posse (so shoot my ass!). - 23:22:34 on 18 Aug 97 GMT

Adam:Um, that should say "PILLORIED, BACK with a BANG." I know, make your own joke here. - 23:23:38 on 18 Aug 97 GMT

Adam MUDDY WATERS:.....Oh, and about the mud routine, my faddah was a mudder and my muddah also was a mudder. Kindly disregard this lettah. - 23:26:04 on 18 Aug 97 GMT

Bill..:RON, My email is still on AOL and I can't get on in the evenings so it might be Thursday, when I am off, before I can check it. Sounds like you're getting things slowly worked out. Give yourself some time. I will talk to you more later. - 23:42:24 on 18 Aug 97 GMT

Adam WELCOME?:To Diana...My intution tells me that you are one of the following: (1) simply shy; (2) taking the time to digest all the inside baseball (and no, tribe, that would not be found in Baseball Digest) on this page before jumping in any further; (3) having fully digested all the long-winded hazerai on this page, uninterested in speaking further; or the single most concise person I have ever met. - 0:34:55 on 19 Aug 97 GMT

and to others who talk to some of us about what you have been saying? - 0:38:02 on 19 Aug 97 GMT

anonymous post should have been after Bill - 0:40:34 on 19 Aug 97 GMT

Peter:ADAM..thank you for clarifying the second amendment of your constitution for me. As a person living outside of the USA I have always had the understanding that it read "the right to bear arms for the purpose of forming a militia". Obviously, in future, I will check my sources, although I do not intend to debate anyone about the particular gun control laws of a country wherein I do not reside. - 0:46:13 on 19 Aug 97 GMT

Joette :-->ADAM..let's not be sensitive. The majority of castigation that took place this weekend was directed at a person named Carrie Drake who visited here some time ago. The mark she left is legend and she is a good example of how not to deal with those atheists who prefer to act as individuals, as opposed as a collective. Looking back, I saw only one reference that could have been directed at you, which I picked up on right away, and if I may speak for some others here, your approach towards the religious right is one that many of us share. - 0:52:46 on 19 Aug 97 GMT

Adam AW, SHOOT!:To Say-It-Ain't-So-Jo-Ette: Only partly true. Posts as far back as Thursday took issue with my approach of beligerance toward religion in general (by the way, I do not reserve the cross-hairs merely for the "religious right"; all religion = ignorance), going so far as to equate my stance with those of the religious oppressors. That is such bunkbeds, I say!----------To Peter "Luger": I didn't mean to jump the gun and have a hair trigger with you. It just happens to be the case that the preambulatory language in the 2d Amendment has served as cannon fodder for those arguing for gun control for some time, so it seemed logical that you were firing off in that general direction. Again, without advocating any position on gun ownership restrictions, it seems to me, as a self-professed language marksman, way off target for anyone to claim that the mere presence of the explanatory opening in the amendment necessarily serves as a safety catch on the rather shotgun coverage of the right the Amendment expresses. Based on the words on the paper, that would be a lock & load of crap. - 2:18:14 on 19 Aug 97 GMT

Adam WITH A BULLET:To God-Sneering Gang......I'm out for the night. See ya (wouldn't want a beer). Cider-nara & Oyasume Nasai! - 2:52:36 on 19 Aug 97 GMT

Grant: JOETTE-- Right you are. Got carried away. - 4:14:56 on 19 Aug 97 GMT

Carl:OPEN: anybody awake yet? looks like all played into the early hours - 17:20:41 on 19 Aug 97 GMT

Adam ON THE JAMMIE:DIASPORA of DISBELIEVERS: I'll be in and out over the next 6-8 hours. Hey Jo-Meet-the-Mets-ette, only 13 days until the Jays @ Shea, when the Mets will roast the Boo-hoo birds, including Roger "the Jock Itch" Clemens. - 19:02:42 on 19 Aug 97 GMT

Joette:--->ADAM...I can almost taste those bagels! Will you sending along the cream cheese too? (I prefer Winnipeg style) - 21:47:35 on 19 Aug 97 GMT

Adam:Jo-lose-the-bet-ette: Oh yeah, I can almost taste, um, uh, what wazzit you said they make in Tronta, eh? By the way, I'm out for the nite- a coworker has suggested a last-minute run to see the Mets-Dodgers tonight. - 21:50:22 on 19 Aug 97 GMT

Peter------> (M)ADAM ( foot's caught in the door )-----:C'mon get it right will'ya. It's "Tronna". Actually, the best bagels in the world are made right here in Kitchener by two guys from Montreal--one originally from Poland, and the other from Vietnam. - 22:42:26 on 19 Aug 97 GMT

Matthew:I recently discovered one of my friends was an atheist like me. He has a theory which seems bloody good. He says : Religion is a purely selfish and egotistical thing. Man only worships a 'god' and does 'good deeds' for his own personal gain. - 23:16:28 on 19 Aug 97 GMT

Joette:-->MATTHEW..don't tell the fundies that! They believe they are serving the "lord", but you are right, they are only serving themselves... - 0:03:09 on 20 Aug 97 GMT

Marlene :MATTHEW- It's not aultrusim (sp), is it? Or is it? - 0:10:42 on 20 Aug 97 GMT

Peter:MATT--Don't like theory--in fact I think just the opposite is true. If one were to look at christianity, it is actually a doctrine where the self is looked at with contempt, and service to others(and God) is the highest moral ideal. Original sin tells the christian that by his own nature he is evil--without offering any proof other than some arbitrary statement. Also, one is to believe the tenets of religion by the use of "faith" which is simply an exercise of one abandoning and denying the efficacy of his own mind--the very thing which is most vital for his survival. To be "selfish" simply means to act for one's own interest. It is not a word which describes any moral evaluation--nor does it mean murdering others at the one's own whims, at the expense of others. This is what religion would have us think it is--but one MUST act in his own interest as he himself is the one who he is accountable for. - 0:17:08 on 20 Aug 97 GMT

Bill..:PETER, Insults, such as you're last post to me, do not advance you're arguments one bit. They are, in fact, nothing short of ostentatious ploys that signal desperation and an end of rational objective argument. Tell me, does it give you a "warm fuzzy feeling?" - 0:53:27 on 20 Aug 97 GMT

Peter:BILL..I don't recall the arguement. Not only was I given a warm fuzzy feeling, but I had a good laugh too! - 1:05:36 on 20 Aug 97 GMT

Bill...:PETER, What do you mean by arguement? I never heard of that word. Do you think this "warm fuzzy feeling" is similar what a religionist feels when he proselytizes? - 1:49:29 on 20 Aug 97 GMT

Peter:BILL..if I was petty enough to pick out the spelling mistakes in your messages, the board would be filled. As far as your question goes, you should know, oh ye that speaks with forked tongue. - 1:55:50 on 20 Aug 97 GMT

Marlene:PETER- That reminds me of a serpent! - 2:16:08 on 20 Aug 97 GMT

Carl:ANY: last nite, on PBS tv i watched some of a program titled "The Burning Times" a woman's view of the european inquisition. Several times prior, the female pseudonyms herein, have mentioned the female worship of fertility gods and that sort, of way back when. This female view has it that the early jc types had to burn and stuff in order to stamp out those old fertility and nature acts of worship and so on in order for jc and a man-god to have its or their way. It was an angering and disturbing thing to see because it was done. Also interesting, the content of the program showed that it was done by women, research in the various fields from the sciences to history, so, for my thoughtful consideration it is one of the more serious assimilations i have made for my knowing. - 15:15:31 on 20 Aug 97 GMT

Marlene:CARL- I think you may remember me mentioning the subject. And yes, the male god, jehovah, was a jealous god and knew that the fertility goddess were his major competitors. Recently some feminist types have made out that the worship of the fertility goddess "proved" that a partnership society exsisted at the time before the war god and male dominant god, jehovah, entered the scene. My argument is that the partnership society didn't exsist at the time and that the fertility goddess wasn't a "one goddess, main goddess" religion but only one of many gods and goddesses worshiped. Another feminist idea is that the fertility goddess was a peaceful and kind goddess. If one reads about the fertility goddess's actions according to the myth, they could also be quite violent. - 17:16:31 on 20 Aug 97 GMT

Carl:MARLENE: to my misfortune i was unable to catch the complete program, an interesting part was that since the station is in the midst of its fund raising when the hosts, two women, made an appearance to hawk their stattion they'd begin by telling the viewer that is they were disturbed or offended in way or major way to switch stations, i took that to mean that the station must have been gettin' calls of complaints. One of the points the program brought out was that the earliest godlike things were female and that they were also the creators. The program, however, was loaded with information one in particular that i did not make record of was the book used by the inquisitors to interview for witches named 'male???somethin' or other' any here know its name? MARLENE, i'm not surprised to learn that such story's of violence[?] have been related to female gods, this brought up another thought i'll post after i think it through... - 17:34:21 on 20 Aug 97 GMT

Adam AYTH:To ALL...But let's cut to the chase more generally; as a rule across the board with religion (again, there is an understandible yet inordinate emphasis on christianity here), man has created god in his own image out of fear, insecurity and ignorance. The very fact that virtually all portrayals of god are as paternalistic super-"humans" with human emotions and fraility is evidence that these "beings" are nothing more than human projections of self onto the realm of what humans do not understand (insecurity). The fear aspect primarily is fear of death. This is why religious dogma invariably creates fantasy afterlives, such as heaven or hell, or some similar "journey" to the next plane, or reincarnation (instant milk). Humans so inherently fear death, and are so unwilling to accept that upon death, one's consciousness ends and one's body decays, and THAT'S ALL FOLKS!, that they always create a soothing delusion of "well, it ain't exactly over yet" or "it's NEVER over-so you better be good for goodness' sake." The last fundamental is ignorance: religion is the children's fairy-tale-like explanation for everything we don't know (and were afraid to say "I don't know that one yet.") Hence, cavemen (actually, civilizations much more advanced than that) could not possibly conceive of what caused lightning or cosmic phenomena like eclipses, and invariably attributed them to human or animal gods acting like-what else-humans or animals. We now know of course, that lighning is simply an electrical discharge between two differently charged points, and that eclipses are simply shadows of planets, etc. However, there's a shitload that we haven't figured out yet (how did the universe begin; how did life on earth originate). Those of us rational thinkers are quite satisfied to say "I haven't figured that out yet, but I'm working on it." Conversely, the intellectually insecure majority continues to say, "Because I can't explain 'X' in terms of my pathetically limited life experiences, it must be the work of god." Thus, religion IS the panacea explanation for all that is not yet known. Hence, RELIGION IS IGNORANCE. Tune in for tomorrow's lecture, "Zinc Oxide & You." - 19:20:46 on 20 Aug 97 GMT

Adam ADDENDUM:....By the way, does it strike anyone else as so telling that god's 1st and foremost commandment, much more important than the prohibition against murder, is "DON'T USE MY NAME IN VAIN, AND I'M THE ONLY GOD." Why would an omnipotent, omnipresent, omnidirectional antennae-wearing being even THINK something like that? ANSWER: It's the emotion of an insecure old man, not god, that's why. - 19:26:11 on 20 Aug 97 GMT

Joette:--->ADAM..well said! Your opinions are shared by this reader, writer and arithmeticer. Unfortunately, the part that we do not yet understand opens the door for such things as "cosmic intelligence" which has been discussed ad nauseum on this page prior to your arrival. - 21:09:01 on 20 Aug 97 GMT

Carl:ANY: since ADAM has broughtup the caveman thing, it permits me to say more on a topic i earlier mentioned, that being humans were not animals. Some herein were inclined to see humans as animals, ok, lets go with that idea. At some point in ages past, unlike the animals something changed within the whatever was to become human that ended a cavewoman from coming into heat, as other animals still do in order for that creature to reproduce. So, somehow those old females had to setup an order for the males, so that they would not destroy things and themselves since the former system of reproductive control was no more. So, someone made use of the unknown and what was then unknowable to start things to where matters stand today. Of course this might mean humans are not really animals afterall, since beaver dams sre still just dams a beehive no matter how wonderful, its still just a beehive like of old. Sex is good? - 21:09:28 on 20 Aug 97 GMT

Carl:ANY: that thought came about before and came up again when i heard about the fertility gods and other stuff, and as i said i'm still pondering that. I have yet to read about that particular thing anywhere in views of evolution. - 21:18:53 on 20 Aug 97 GMT

Joette:-->CARL..since when don't women go into heat? I am not attempting to be facetious, obnoxious or cavalier about your posting, but I believe that all female, be they human (animal) or animal (animal), the reproductive cycle remains the same. Religion has forced the restraint of same, however. - 21:41:37 on 20 Aug 97 GMT

Joette:As the bible says "many are cold, but few are frozen"! - 21:46:58 on 20 Aug 97 GMT

Carl:JOETTE: so that has been an issue only, but not a fact. Was the bible thing you? - 22:02:08 on 20 Aug 97 GMT

Joette:-->CARL..yes... - 22:12:01 on 20 Aug 97 GMT

Carl:JOETTE: well, that accounts for us- the nameless ones. - 22:53:00 on 20 Aug 97 GMT

Adam ANIMAL:Caveman Carl...It is my understanding that the only thing, ultimately, that distinguishes humans from other animals is the evolution of a large brain capable of sapient thought. With that came a host of developments that would seem to distinguish us: first and foremost, the development of complex language and communication abilities; the ability to fashion tools to sophisticated as to make sheer strength and speed no longer evolutionary determinants in themselves; and the ability to wonder and question, an unfortunate outgrowth of which is the fashioning of ridiculous fantasies to explain that which we have yet to comprehend. Oh, yeah, I forgot Velcro©. Ugh! Jo-ette, get me club soda with twist of wildebeast. - 23:06:02 on 20 Aug 97 GMT

Joette subservient to no man, no way, no how..:-->ADAM..these are not those days anymore, so get it yourself! - 0:20:39 on 21 Aug 97 GMT

Adam ARE YOU KIDDING?:To Jo-Way-José-ette: Seriously, where am I gonna find a wildebeast...out here........in space.............at THIS hour? How about with a twist of Javalena? Are you game for that? HAR! - 0:37:58 on 21 Aug 97 GMT

Adam AGONIZING AUTHORS:..Twowall: I'll share with the gang the "Don't Quote Me" de la semaine---humorous usages by authors submitting articles to my publication. This one is from a health care article not likely to make the cut for next week's edition: "AS IS OFTEN THE CASE, HOWEVER, THEORY AND REALITY FALL FAR SHORT OF ONE ANOTHER." - 0:42:00 on 21 Aug 97 GMT

Joette:-->ADAM..5-4 Dodgers in the 2nd inning! I read in the paper tonight that Dr. Jack's assisted suicide du jour was a young woman from my neck of the woods...this is the second Canuck he has knocked off. Have you done many articles on him in your publication? - 1:08:11 on 21 Aug 97 GMT

ADAM You Call That a Bagel?....:Peter: That was NEVER a bagel. The best part is the hole, probably. Maybe you should shtick to eating Punkins'. I suppose the best bialys are from Cameroon, right? - 1:35:47 on 21 Aug 97 GMT

ADAM At Death's Door=====:To You-gotta-Jo-sometime-ette....(1) WHO was hung from the neck in your woods? Jack Spratt? Didn't he get used to get lean bagels from Belize? Such a shame! I'll soitantly shed a shmear for him! (2) Yes, when we get an angle not covered by the daily general press. "Mass"-appeal stories (pun intended, bien big sûr) like that one don't get much play with us, because the world, especially lawyers, already know the plot (HAR!). (3) Wanna update that score again, dearie? Seems like official-game rain delay, Mets up by one. Then again, it's Asian night at Shea, so a teamwide hara-kiri cannot be ruled out. Whoa, bonus for Dr. Jack and his lovely assistant, Jill, who comes away with 50¢. Hey, all I got is Swedish money on me---can anyone break a crown? Somebody STOP ME!!! - 1:45:32 on 21 Aug 97 GMT

Bill..:PETER, Sometimes you act like an atheist fundie that gets his "warm fuzz's" in very much the same way--by abandoning reason and logic in support of insult--that any fundie religionist would. Did you use to teach Sunday school before you made the switch? - 1:53:13 on 21 Aug 97 GMT

Joette:--->ADAM..please kind sir, forgive my snide remark re the Mets. I have to call the cavalry, as there is a massacre taking place at Comiskey! - 1:58:16 on 21 Aug 97 GMT

Peter:BILL. Boy, I guess you really told me off, huh? - 2:02:50 on 21 Aug 97 GMT

ADAM When it Rains, It Standard & Poor's~~~~~:Enjoying-the-show-Jo? MisinfoMets by me based on a bad update by a colleage in the newsroom---Mets are up by 1, but it's only the third inning in rain delay. Don't you mean CALVARY? Or are our signals just CROSSed? Oh, I feel like such an APSE! - 2:34:20 on 21 Aug 97 GMT

PETER:---ADAM---Now I have you at a disadvantage. I have purchased several of those objects which are reminicent of brake-shoes in the NYC area, and I have experienced the sweet ambrosia from the "Royal Bagel Shop", in Kitchener, Ont. No comparison. You guys better stick to seltzer and bad accents. - 4:19:17 on 21 Aug 97 GMT

ADAM Un-dough-nted@@@@@:To Peter Piper Picked a Pack of Pickled Herring??? I don't know where you went in NYC (some crap chain like H&H, perhaps?), so I'll tell you what. Why don't you join Jo-Bette and wager me on the 1st-ever Mets-Blue Jays series on Sept. 1-3? A dozen of mine against a dozen of yours, straight up (and I will get mine from a masterful place like Tal Bagels on 1st Ave). I know the Blow Jays suck, but the Mets do as well lately, and are 2-7 in interleague play, having lost all 3 series so far, including a SWEEP in Detroit. I'll be off the jammie by the time you respond to this, so I'll catch you Lox Jox tomorrow. Don't take any wooden whitefish! - 5:03:45 on 21 Aug 97 GMT

Adam Parting-the-Red-Sea-Shot:Oh, and by the way, I know this guy from Burkina Faso that makes the most kickin' gefilte fish like to die for. Oh, Dr. Jack, surf's up!!!!!! - 5:06:24 on 21 Aug 97 GMT

Carl:A&J: listened to a sports report about the Mets, it was said they steal signs via their videocams, strategically located, that the Mets said were setup to record their pitchers. Conincidently, the report went on by bringing up the point, the Mets have the best home record in B.B. ADAM the points you espouse as differences coincide with the things that stand as why humans are not, lets say, animals as as are animals. You and i owe all we know to our progenitors and other precursors. Notwithstanding various atavisms, humans are very natural- not supernatural nor affilated with such, that can control things but do not need to be controlled by anything, provided we or just you and i utilise our discipline[s]. - 14:42:44 on 21 Aug 97 GMT

Marlene:CARL- Women do "so to speak" go into heat. I think we would call this "wanting a baby" and when we "want a baby" we carry on our species. Depending on the culture a woman may have anywhere from one child to 17-18 children. In a society, free from religious rule or total male domination, the female of of species ultimately chooses the male she wishes to father her children. Therefore we aren't too much different than any other animal. We do though, have the most helpless and fragile babies. It takes many years before our offspring are able to survive on their own. I'm not talking about legal age limits here either. I would say that in a society where people are more in tune with nature that this age would be around the 10-12 age group. - 17:41:10 on 21 Aug 97 GMT

Carl:MARLENE: perhaps you know about that PBS program i mentioned tanyway that got me thinking about the topic you refer your comments. And, what i do mean to extrapolate on are the many things humans can do, including the control of reproduction in that the chemical process doesn't turn it into a grunion thing on some beach, that animals can't. As for nature and what is natural that is one of my primary reasons for the rejection of any attribute of anykind of theism. Of that matter, it is unnatural- hence, it is false to what humans are, in the same way it is false to say they are animals. - 18:16:39 on 21 Aug 97 GMT

Marlene:CARL- If, for example, a human, a bear, a rabbit and a lion were abandon on a island with just what they were born with meaning the human would have his wonderfully imaginative mind but no ready made weapons. Who would be the first to die, do you think? Humans have survived only because they have their imaginative mind, otherwise they are defenceless compared to other animals. After saying that, do we need large numbers in order to survive? Wars and famine take care of the grunion or lemming thing. - 20:12:40 on 21 Aug 97 GMT

Joette:--->MARLENE..good analogy, only you have put the human in an unfair position. If that human only had what he/she was born with, he/she would not have that imagination..instead, it would be replaced only with the survival instinct inherent in all species. - 22:47:20 on 21 Aug 97 GMT

Bill...:PETER, Yep, I did! - 0:43:27 on 22 Aug 97 GMT

Adam Y. O. Y.?:###### What, prey tell, is the point of this manimal discussion? Sitting here in the cat-bird seat, it does not appear that anyone is disagreeing about the status of humans---to wit, the most advanced product of evolution thus far, distinguished from the ruff-ruff-riff-raff by our advanced degree of cognitive abilities---while Carl appears to be shadow boxing over some nervous seman-tick, to wit, the definition of "ANIMAL." So this year's annual Elephant Man award goes to Carl, Carl, Carl of the jungle (watch out for that "To Be..."!), for his most convincing soliloquy titled "I am NOT an animal." Cong-RATS. Now, speaking of rats, WHO GIVES ONE'S ASS? I surodent! And do you know how I know I'm not an animal? That's simple: I'm not an animal because I AM SPARTACUS! - 1:11:42 on 22 Aug 97 GMT

Adam NO MAN HAS GONE BEEF or CHICKEN?:&&&&&&& Ooooops!!! I mean, I AM KEE-ROCK!!! - 1:13:21 on 22 Aug 97 GMT

Joette:-->TO ALL.. the religious atrocity of the day...the United Church of Canada has "repented" for the actions of some of its members doling out abuse to young native Canadians while in their care at boarding schools. They chose to repent instead of to apologize in an effort to shield the church from liability in a lawsuit. Legal advisers have warned the church that an apology might cancel the church's liability insurance and leave it to shoulder unspecified damage. Now tell me, if the United Church, or any other denomination for that matter, is supposed to represent love and benevolence, why the heck do they need insurance policies to cover abuse? I am hot under the collar about this!!!! There official statement read "We imposed our civilization as a condition for accepting the gospel. We tried to make you like us and in so doing destroy the vision that made you what you were." Doesn't it remind you of the f****** Spanish Inquisition? - 1:56:31 on 22 Aug 97 GMT

Peter:Well Bill, if it makes you feel better to believe you did, so be it. - 2:06:52 on 22 Aug 97 GMT

Adam JO ON, GIRLFRIEND!!! ^^^^^^:Hey, Eski-Jo....What's the "f******"? Is it "fishing" (see late last nite's discussion)? "Fidgity"? "Fruited" (The plain, boss, the PLAIN!!!)? "Flautas" (or is that the Spanish-in-the-kitchen?)? "Florida" (Oh, you don't know the state I'm in!---The Band)? "Foxhole" (No wait, there ARE no foxholes on ATHEISTS' pages)? - 2:20:29 on 22 Aug 97 GMT

Adam LET GO MY EGO:••••• Is it just me, or am I the funniest ATHEIST mutha-f***** in da ¹hood? - 2:23:26 on 22 Aug 97 GMT

-->you know it brudda! - 2:34:34 on 22 Aug 97 GMT

Adam YO, YOU AIN'T DOWN, GEE!:$$$$$$$ Who posted "brudda," Allen Sherman? You betta git WITIT: It's "BRUH-tha." AIIGHT, you ofay 85 pacentah? - 3:36:54 on 22 Aug 97 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- Yes, I heard that on the news tonight! I wonder when xtian honesty got pushed aside because of the money??? - 4:18:39 on 22 Aug 97 GMT

Bill..:Yea Peter, so be it! - 11:11:09 on 22 Aug 97 GMT

RON...--->Bill & Peter...: Let it be, oh let it be... ADAM...put down the crack pipe, it's going to be ok, bud. Trust me. JOETTE..If you replace "United Church" with "Corporation" and replace "gospell" with "company policy" it all makes sense, dollars and cents that is. - 12:29:59 on 22 Aug 97 GMT

Marlene:ADAM- Who man is, is what the discussion is about, not baseball. CARL- I'm not understanding, are you saying humans aren't animal? JOETTE- Instinct for survival is the main factor with any species on this planet but one or two humans would not survive if left on that island. Man is lacking in almost every area except for the highly evolved brain. One or two human brains would not asssure survival, man has only progressed because of his numbers. Now on those damn PK's. They have their cult meeting tomorrow and CJOB is interviewing the no-mind ex-football player who heads the Canadian PKs on their program this morning so back to the kitchen to hear what the no-mind has to say! - 14:05:38 on 22 Aug 97 GMT

Joette:-->MARLENE..your Promise Keepers are to your area (and slowly infiltrating into my area) as Erika Kubassek is to southern Ontario...I wonder how they get so much media coverage? Do you think they call the radio stations, newspapers and television stations themselves, or is the media that interested in them that they keep in touch with them on a regular basis? I am tempted to call our local media each time I have an anti-religion thought to see what their response would be...Another thing happening, in London, Ontario, the mayor was put before a Human Rights tribunal yesterday, as the gay community has charged that she has shown discrimination in her refusal to sanction "Gay Pride Day". She admitted openly that she is against homosexuality because of her moral and religious beliefs. She also stated that she would boycott any industry that discriminated against women, visible minorities, aboriginals and physically challenged persons, but she would not interfere with any enterprise that discriminates against homosexuals. Public sanctioned bigotry is outrageous and she should be impeached by any clear thinking citizen of her town. Also Marlene, does this mean I have to stop with the baseball too, even though it is my worshipping venue? - 14:49:29 on 22 Aug 97 GMT

Marlene proud of Winnipeg today!!!:HA! HA!. My e-mail along with many others I'm sure prompted the radio talk show host, Peter Warren, to ask this "key man" of the PKs some very specific questions about their growing cult. Questions concerning homosexuality, submission of women, their tolerance of other religions, etc. The "key man" answered with unless one is 'born again through jc" that one is not 'saved". Homosexuality is a "sin" and that all men are sinners so that by giving their life to jc they will cease to commit that sin and become "sexually pure". Men need to take back the control of the family and that women should be submissive in order to save the culture. After just 15 minutes, Peter, kicked the "keyman" out of his studio. So this has been two major religious nutcases that have been rejected by Winnipeg. The other one being Larson with his anti-homosexuality speeches. In case anyone here doesn't realize it, the PKs in the US is an invention of the Vineyard Churches and is strongly supported by the political right. Those connected are Richard Dobson, Jerry Fawell, Robertson, and more. The PK's are now urging their flock of "men of integrity"(sp) to vote politically right, to follow a "military messiah". - 15:23:20 on 22 Aug 97 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- My post to Adam was in response to his post asking "why are we discussing man the animal". - 15:27:45 on 22 Aug 97 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- Tis' me again. I'm going away for a couple of days so will you keep me updated?? If so thanks! - 16:36:56 on 22 Aug 97 GMT

Peter--: I saw a marquee in front of a fundamentalist church today, that said " No God--No Peace; Know God--Know Peace"--the more I thought about this, the more offeneded I became. Whadday'all think? Am I being over-sensitive here? - 17:05:59 on 22 Aug 97 GMT

Carl:MARLENE: No humans are not animals because of time and learning. these are practically one and the same as humans go. Animals, as i've seen described, just occupy space and learn nothing. thta, pertains to the entry of beaver dams and bee hives are still just as they were 10000 years ago. ADAM the cavemanimal, must clearly understand how goes survival of the strong. I see that kind of matter as one of the survival of the "fittest"; that again brings up the idea of theism with its nonsense of made in "our" image and forgiveness. these are just killing notions or tools, if and when one so chooses. - 17:16:39 on 22 Aug 97 GMT

Carl:PETER: don't even nibble at that baited-hook, - 18:12:16 on 22 Aug 97 GMT

Joette:--->MARLENE..don't go! I'll miss you! (have a great time wherever it is you are off to..) - 19:02:59 on 22 Aug 97 GMT

Carl:MARLENE: i suppose you will review this upon your return, of the desert isle scenario, i'll play thusly; i manage youth baseball teams, been doin'so for 10 years, nowadays, when i pick players my first and the foremost attribute, i look for, more important than anything else, is lively active grey matter between the ears. other managers invariably go gah gah over the youngsters with cannonlike arms, cheetahlike speed and Paul Bunyunlike hitting power. I counter all that with better baseball play, and that matter is outside the scope of this response, and for example, me and a corelike group of 7-10 playing winter bb, went 3 years losing 13 times. that was good, playing a schedule of 50 or so games. None of that coregroup could have been described in the terms i mentioned, but they could do most anything else of the game. So for your scenario, active grey matter is the most dangerous weapon, the bunny-rabbit would cease its existence last. - 19:17:03 on 22 Aug 97 GMT

Cam:Doses any one here know why we are here or where we came from - 19:23:51 on 22 Aug 97 GMT

Bill..:CAM, Nope! - 19:56:42 on 22 Aug 97 GMT

Peter:Cam---Why don't you tell us. - 21:57:04 on 22 Aug 97 GMT

Adam GETTING PROTESTY|||||:Peter....NO JUSICE---OF THE PEACE; NO BAKER---NO PIECE of CAKE; KNOW JEANINE TURNER---KNOW PIECE - 22:15:57 on 22 Aug 97 GMT

Adam ERRATA:That should be "No Justice," with a holy c. - 22:16:53 on 22 Aug 97 GMT

Adam Y ASK Y?++++:Hey, twin CAM....Doses you ever think that there is no "WHY"? Why do you need a reason to exist? Your very post crystallizes the intellectual precipice from which insecure religious dodderheads inevitably teeter. You are a human, and thus generally you have a motivation or "purpose" for doing, or refraining from doing, all of your specific actions. Fine, no problemo. The pitfall is then projecting your human intellect and motivations outward upon an overwhelmingly inanimate, purposeless universe. I know definitively why we are here---we are here by accidents of cosmic collisions, stellar explosions, and periodic random mutations that occasionally make certain individuals better suited to their environments than their brethren---i.e., evolution. There is no purpose or grand plan. Your post is perhaps more profound than you know, for it articulates the very essence of human intellectual insecurity and chauvanism that gives rise to preposterous religious fantasies throught our species. I advise you to stop projecting human motivations upon the cosmos, and just enjoy your brief span of conscious existence, without demanding that it have a dolphin. Strike that---I meant PORPOISE. Have you met my friend, Flicka? Yes, Cammed Ham, become one with the body. There is peace in Landrew. - 22:36:54 on 22 Aug 97 GMT

Adam NO MAN'S AN ISLAND:Carl...What if the human on the island was VERY fond of HÖSSENPFEFFER, and the rabbit had to be bugs bunny? Moreover and out, if I'm one of the people on the island, and the other is Jeanine Turner, not only would we survive, but we'd have a grizzly-skin rug and a roaring fireplace within 36 hours. The hypothetical also did not indicate whether the humans had sandwiches. - 22:43:06 on 22 Aug 97 GMT

Adam JET TO THE TUNDRA LAND}}}}:Hey, Marlene: You're not REALLY proud of Winnipeg, right? I mean, that was a fig leaf of speech, right? And baseball is very relevant, as everyone knows that mankind first emerged from a crude, primitive dugout---I'm talkin' no water coolers, rotting wood, the whole nine metres. - 22:47:05 on 22 Aug 97 GMT

Adam OMNIPRESENT:---Doses anyone out here know what the record is for consecutive posts by one person on this page? - 22:48:30 on 22 Aug 97 GMT

Joebat:--->HEY THERE LONELY GUY...I think that you would have to go along way to beat the record! (oh, BTW, the Rocket is ahead 2-0 on his way to 20!) - 0:43:57 on 23 Aug 97 GMT

Joette:-->ADAMKNOWSALL..who is Jeanine Turner, and does the nine in her name mean anything? - 0:46:34 on 23 Aug 97 GMT

Joette:--->RON..in reference to your post about replacing "gospell" with "corporate policy", does this mean since your last foray into the world of employment challenged that you have since gone into business for yourself? If not, please don't bite the hand that feeds you! - 0:49:06 on 23 Aug 97 GMT

Joette:-->RON..sorry if the above post seemed insensitive, but I can not understand why everyone is so quick to jump on the evils of corporate enterprises. The majority of people on this continent work for someone else, and it is their choice to do just that. We have discussed this previously, and maybe things are different in Canada, where are unemployment rate hovers at 10% constantly, and so most of us are happy to get a paycheque. Our labour laws are not perfect, but employees have the upperhand in this country, so maybe I just can not identify with your complaints about nasty business practices. - 0:53:26 on 23 Aug 97 GMT

Joette going for the record...:--ADAMWHOWILLBEAFEWBAGELSSHORTSOON...Adam, how do you propose to get those bagels to me next weekend??? And will I be receiving the Winnipeg sytle cream cheese as well? - 1:01:04 on 23 Aug 97 GMT

Joette:--->CAM..if your question to this page was a sincere one, in that you want our opinion on how we got here, then let us know. If it was meant to force us to see "the other side", then you just sort of wasted my precious time (B. Dylan). If you have proof of god's existence, then please share it with us. If you have no proof, then why would you believe in him/her/it? - 1:04:27 on 23 Aug 97 GMT

Joette and last but not least:--->BILL..come out, come out, where ever you are! Please don't sulk big guy... - 1:06:32 on 23 Aug 97 GMT

Bill...:JOETTE, I'm not sulking; I am just taking a break and trying to catch up on a few projects (honey-doo's) around the house before I go out of town again--Mon. thru Wed. Concerning your post to Ron, I would have to say that the labour laws in this country may not be as strong as you're country. About 15 years ago President Regan hurt the unions here when the government fired all the striking air traffic controllers and the American corporations have slowly taken advantage of the workers since then in many ways. Corporations have bought out other companies and confiscated their pension funds to pay for the acquisition and then laid off workers. Corporate executives are paid millions to cut workers and do these sorts of things. Last week UPS (united parcel service) went on strike because the corporate management was going to take over their pension fund and use it for the corporation's needs. Also they were working part-time employee's 60 hours a week and paying them half as much as the regular workers with no benefits. For one of the richest countries in the world (USA), families deserve to have health care and other benefits. Also those workers are timed with a stopwatch in their routes so that every move is productive even to the extent of writing things down while they walk from their truck to the delivery point. In my opinion, their should be more equanimity within all companies and top executives should never be paid more than 10 times the lowest paid worker in the company. Is Canada different than what I described above? - 11:35:58 on 23 Aug 97 GMT

Peter---BILL-->>>:--You were doing OK until you hit the "10 times more than the lowest paid employee". Apart from this being a blatant assault of free enterprise system that made your country the wealthiest in the world, by what repressive, brute-force method would this be enforced? What if an empolyer feels one person is worth 20 times, 0r 50 times, or a hundred times more valuable to him than his lowest paid. Should he not have freedom to excercise right to do this, without some repressive gvoernment telling him to do otherwise? What you are suggesting is something that would be heard in repressive systems such as Communist Russia, Cuba etc. Is this a regime that you'd like to live in? The wealthiest nations on earth are the freest ones, so what you are suggesting would be to bite the hand that feeds you. If certain "segments" of society are getting paid more, let the market write their pay cheques, not a mob-government. - 13:48:39 on 23 Aug 97 GMT

m44:bill- a question for you: who killed baron d'holbach ? and how ? also..could you please refer me to an authority on this subject there in the U.K. ? i'd be grateful for any sincere reply. m44 - 14:40:24 on 23 Aug 97 GMT

m44:oops! please excuse..this is my first visit. i seem to have mistaken "bill" for "ron". though i'd be thankful to hear from ANYONE who can answer my question. m44 - 14:58:07 on 23 Aug 97 GMT

Peter:m44---...Bill,...zzzz....Ron,....zzzz..snore,snore...what's the difference? - 15:32:04 on 23 Aug 97 GMT

Joette (if I wanted a fight I'd go see G.I. Jane):--->PETER..there is a difference. Now drop it. - 16:15:40 on 23 Aug 97 GMT

Joette:--->m44..is there something that makes you think that the Baron (aka Paul Thiry) died of anything other than natural causes. He was 65 when he died, which is a ripe old age for those living in the 18th century. - 16:33:22 on 23 Aug 97 GMT

Bill...:PETER, I believe in free enterprise too and I have personally benefited significantly from it. I am not suggesting that we set up a Gestapo government enforcement policy, only that we--as responsible individuals of corporate America-- "voluntarily" exercise a little more conscience and equanimity in some corporations. The 10 times factor that I used is only a ballpark "personal opinion" of what I would recommend if I were in charge of a large corporation. Of course not all companies ignore the needs of their employees, especially West Coast computer companies, and some employees their have become millionaires in as little as ten years by their stock options. Speaking of "not biting the hand that feeds you", RON Take Peter off this board NOW! hahahahahah, Just teasing! - 17:14:38 on 23 Aug 97 GMT

Adam TIRED of EDITING////:Yo Jo-B@....Mets won in double-comeback 11th inning (8th straight xtra framegame win). Regarding the bet: 1st base-Aren't there enough wacky hypotheticals on this page? Don't add the Fay Jays winning to that; 2d base-we don't yet have a bet, because I haven't heard you put up anything worthwhile from the great barren north; 3d base-shipping is easy if you get me an address via private e-mu (dead bird gonna put it on you). I don't know about the "nine" in Jeanine Turner; maybe it's because she's a "10" less one for the road less travelled. She played Maggie O'Connell on Northern Exposure and opposite Slice Tallone in Cliffhanger. She also did a car commercial in which she looks mahveluss. I tried to post this last night, but my server and flexnet were having a lovers' quarrel. - 20:58:25 on 23 Aug 97 GMT

Adam LIBERDAD!!!:---Clearly, Bill does not understand the raîson d'être of corporations and generally appears to be a commie. - 21:00:55 on 23 Aug 97 GMT

Adam BOLDLY GO CRAZY: I.....AM.....STILL.....KEEEE-ROCK!!!!! - 21:04:59 on 23 Aug 97 GMT

Bill..:ADAM, Are you bored with baseball and have no one to talk to? I am not a commie! Be careful here you might offend Lucifer. I am a fiscal conservative with a social conscience though. Do you have a problem with that? Please explain to me the "raison d'etre of corporations?" - 22:20:01 on 23 Aug 97 GMT

Bill..:PETER, Since you are into philosophy the Deming philosophy, which made Japan one of the wealthiest most productive nations in the world after WWII, suggest a factor of 7 times as being ideal for highest paid employee verses lowest paid employee. The US rejected this philosophy for many years and is just now in the last 5 or 10 years coming around to adopting some of Deming's principles. Americans are currently some of the most productive people in the world. - 22:34:47 on 23 Aug 97 GMT

Joette:--->ADAM..I can bet you beer, sausage, Pat Hentgen's first autograph as a major league player (on second thought, I won't bet that), a snow goose, a Canadian goose (dead or alive), punkins, poutine, moose meat, or any other Canadian or Berlin oriented bit of ethniticity your heart desires...name it, it's yours! I can be cavalier, because I know that you are going to lose! Start spreading the news, their coming your way...it's gone to be a wipeout in old New York (Mets will be the bottom of the heap). - 22:57:36 on 23 Aug 97 GMT

PETER:--->BILL---To implement this system as you suggest even voluntarily has nothing to do with being respondsible. An employer, or owner(s) only obligation to an employee is to compensate his employee, for his services rendered--THAT is being respondsible. By their mutual agreement, whether it be it by a series of perks, and monetary payment, is the sole business of the employer and employee, and NO ONE ELSE. To suggest otherwise is to interfere with a system which reflects justice. If someone wants to stick to your 10X guidelines, so be it--but to "suggest" or "recommend" otherwise is to ultimately penalize those who may deserve more; and to reward those who are worth less. Not only is this irresponsibly unjust---it is immoral. Laissez-faire capitalism ( which means "hands-off" ) is the ONLY fair, just, and moral system - 23:19:32 on 23 Aug 97 GMT

Joette:-->earth to Grant, earth to Grant. Come in Grant... - 23:24:29 on 23 Aug 97 GMT

Major Grant to ground control: -- huh? wha..? - 23:47:46 on 23 Aug 97 GMT

Joette:-->GRANT..long time no hear from! It's good to know that even if you aren't posting, you are still around...how ya' doin'? Are you still doing all that heavy reading? - 0:31:24 on 24 Aug 97 GMT

Adam BULLISH<<<<:Bill...the sole purpose of a corporation is to maximize the return to its shareholders. Period, not comma (does everyone remember the difference between a comma and a kitten?). Of course, the corporation is a legal "person," and hence is under obligation to observe laws and is liable under the common law for its negligent or tortious conduct. You are projecting your "social conscience" outward upon others. Of course, corporations are AMORAL (please do not confuse with IMMORAL). As a libertarian and rational absolutist, I would go even further (acknowledging, of course, that it places me in a small minority): compassion and other emotions have no role whatsoever in public policy, which should be devoted to rational problem solving. - 0:43:29 on 24 Aug 97 GMT

ADAM Are You Smokin' a "Jay"?:To When Hell Freezes Jo-ver...For the life & times of me, you have not offered a single, needful thing of interest and dividends to me. How about a Jays' t-shirt or something. Also, I collect snow domes. Can you get one or two? I've got one of the Sky Dome, but no others that are Ca-nookie. - 0:49:08 on 24 Aug 97 GMT

Joette:-->ADAM..how about a snow dome of the Canadian Falls, which make your side look like a morning shower? The Jays shirt will be thrown in...(I have some real vintage ones, but I can get you a new one, let me know....) - 1:45:47 on 24 Aug 97 GMT

Joette:--->ADAM KANE...do you also drop your snow domes on the floor and utter "Rosebud.."? - 1:48:29 on 24 Aug 97 GMT

Joette:-->Adam..since you are being so persnickety about the bet, I was being polite, and I don't want bagels either (I have to watch my waist line for my topless forays)..I would prefer one of your insipid "Homer Hankies" to mock... - 1:51:40 on 24 Aug 97 GMT

PETER:--->>ADAM--( re:post to Bill )--You know it--well said. - 1:59:07 on 24 Aug 97 GMT

Adam THREE BAM, FOUR CRACK ‡‡‡‡‡:My last transmission--been at work 8 hours now on Sat, and will be in again Sun nite.....Jo-Jo-Bee: Bagels are low in fat if you don't add that damned Moosejaw cream cheese you were relief pitching...I only have one homer hankie, and it was a stadium giveaway that I have not seen for sale (besides, there's not much to it). Let's go shirt for shirt. I'll put up a new one of my choosing (it'll be good) against new or vintage (no pitstained rags, tho'). If one team sweeps the other, loser buys the winner game tickets for the rematch in if there is one. HOWZAT? I would love a falls dome, and yeah right, I drop em on the floor all the time whatever you say oh yeah and "Rosebud" whatever.....Peter, thanks....Hey, look, I can write like Larry King:....Whatever happened to the Wurlitzer?.....Pound for pound, the best owner in baseball is Marge Schott....I think I just got engaged again.... - 4:01:19 on 24 Aug 97 GMT

Grant: JOETTE-- Had to drop everything. The new Lawrence Block novel is out. Did you hear that the Baptists and Mormons are fighting? The Baps resent the Mormons' angling inside their nets. ("fishers of men" and all that) They're warning their members and others that the Mormons are not really xtians, because of their unusual beliefs regarding heaven, the godhead, modern-day prophets etc. (I thought that one merely had to believe in x.) They've even made a video, "White Shirted Wally Cleavers From Hell," or some such I suppose. The Mormons have responded "Are too!" - 7:42:49 on 24 Aug 97 GMT

Bill..:PETER, ADAM, Let's just look at history and the facts and consider two realities: 1-The USA and Japan are two of the wealthiest and most competitive countries in the world. 2-The recent 15 day strikes by UPS personal. First of all in relation to reality number one, Dr. Deming, an American BTW, jump started Japan's economy after WWII with his, "Total Quality Management Philosophy (TQM)." Has either of you heard of this concept? Forty years ago the US rejected this philosophy so he sold it to Japan, a part of which was the 7 x factor of lowest to highest--pay spread--amongst employees, with the results being an overwhelming success. In the last decade the US has recognized the value of Deming's wisdom and Corporate America has adopted much of this TQM within its structure. Also corporate America has adopted people such as Stephen Covey author of, "The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People" (sold 4 million copies in 26 languages), "First Things First", and "Principle-Centered Leadership" (current bestseller). Has either of you read any of these books? These most respect authors all deal in human motivational factors that will enable a company, with it's empowered-team oriented-employees, to be a top competitor in future and or current "world competition." Corporations, as you say, are directly responsible for maximizing the return to its shareholders (their stockholders), but in order to do this and become a top competitor a corporation has to create an atmosphere of trust and honesty where the employee feels, not only paid but, valued. Only then will the employee "go the extra mile", which will give a competitive difference to the "bottom line." This goes beyond the black and white impersonal analysis and gets into "moral and just" and "trust and honesty" things. Peter, the lowest paid employee's are the heart (and profit) of the business, and you would not be rewarding the "worth-less" by adequately compensating them and being honest with them. Successful businesses do not hire "worthless people." Secondly, in relation to reality number two, do either of you think that it's fair to enter into agreement with it's employees concerning wages and benefits (ie pension fund) and then some time in the future try to take control of this fund to use for the company's own purposes? Or is it fair to stop hiring full-time employees and use part-time employees 60 hours a week with no benefits. I can tell you that the stockholders are suffering the loss of hundreds of millions of dollars, in current and future profits, as a result of this just and fair strike over honesty, fairness, and principles. Other carriers will permanently benefit from this strike. The corporation has to be more than just a legal "person", if it is to profitable compete and thereby do justice to the stockholders. The corporation has to start feeling like a person, with a social conscience, concerned with the environment, employee safety, customer satisfaction, employee trust, honesty, etc. Do you really think that an "amoral" corporation, with an ever-increasing educated work force, will survive long term in future world competition? - 14:26:01 on 24 Aug 97 GMT

Joette:--BILL..TQM was the buzz word for virtual businesses a few years ago. Nowadays, it is the "virtual" business, in lay terms, right-sizing (not down sizing), doing more with less, expecting employees to work at the peak of their performance levels etc, while empowering them. It does not mean carrying non-productive workers on the back of corporations due to their years of seniority, they have a sick family member etc. I have a very strong background in labour relations (it was I was university educated for before I became a bean counter), and the bottom line for any corporation is profits. You are correct, an ethical company will treat its employees fairly, and it is the marketplace that will judge the ethics of a company. That is why companies such as Nike (an American institution if there ever was one) should be called up for their inhumane labour practices in Vietnam, China and wherever else they pay their employees 2 cents and hour and all the rice they can eat. They then turn around and make a 1000% profit marketing their wares to a market that can barely afford them (i.e. urban youth). If you enjoy reading business oriented materials, I would recommend "In Search of Excellence" and "Liberation Management" by Tom Peters. In the case of UPS, it should be up to the courts to decide if the corporation has broken any laws, and if so, they should be duly charged. If not, caveat emptor. As an employee, you enter into a contract with your employer, and there are means for addressing unfair labour practices. - 15:24:53 on 24 Aug 97 GMT

Joette:-->BILL..addendum..actually, Dr. Deming was scoffed at by your country and that is why he went to Japan in the first place. His was a case study which I spent many hours pondering in my school days. - 15:28:39 on 24 Aug 97 GMT

Peter:BILL--Reread the last sentence of my last post to you. If you still disagree with me, read it again. - 16:11:19 on 24 Aug 97 GMT

Bill..:PETER, I totally agree with you that capitalism should be "hands-off" as far as outside forces (i.e. governments) go. What I am referring to in my post fall within the corporate structure and what has been proven to work most effectively and thus make a profit for the stockholders. I don't think we disagree on this point Peter! - 17:15:14 on 24 Aug 97 GMT

Bill..:JOETTE, I pretty much agree with you're post and would only add that I have a difficult time buying Nike products for the very reasons you mention. Also, on the other end of the pay scale, they will pay some sport star millions of dollars to sell these products to the very groups that you mentioned. Thanks for the book references and I think that "principle-centered leadership" will eventually become the norm of the future successful businesses. - 17:15:44 on 24 Aug 97 GMT

BILL-- - 23:55:19 on 24 Aug 97 GMT

PETER---->BILL....:--Now you are arguing for this "10X" guideline as a recomended model to keep a corporations labour costs under control, but this certainly wasn't the spirit of your original argument as I interpreted it. You suggested in your original post that the 10X guideline was to restore "equanimity" as far as the range of compensation is concerned within the corporate structure--which is to suggest an ethical reason, much like" Why is this guy making more than ten times what I'm making?" Since it brought in a an ethical tone, this would then suggest that the lower-paid employees have some inexplicable claim on the compensation scale of the higher-paid employees, which would never emerge in a laissez-faire capitalist system. - 0:11:49 on 25 Aug 97 GMT

Bill..:PETER, The Deming philosophy suggest 7X but I think this is a little tight and would rather see 10X in salary spreads to give plenty of room for advancement for the high achievers and highly educated. This is only a suggested guideline for corporations to think about when setting the salary ranges of all its employed positions. Are you familiar with TQM and have you read any of the books I mentioned? What is you're feelings on the UPS strike? - 0:47:55 on 25 Aug 97 GMT

PETER-----:BILL--To answer your questions in order: Yes, No, I don't. Regarding the rest of your post: It has no relevance to my last one. - 1:16:59 on 25 Aug 97 GMT

Bill..:This is my last post for three days. Bye! - 2:14:26 on 25 Aug 97 GMT

Adam GOOD STUFF, NO GOD:Computer? WORKING!{{{{ Sorry I missed Bill. I agree with Peter, despite his wild ruminations about doughnutmakers from Qatar, that Bill has retreated from his original anti-corporate diatribe to a noncontroversial recommendation on how to maximize profits for the shareholders. Nobody suggested that corporations can't engage in charitable work or advancing the public good----in the U.S., for example, major corporations like Ford and ADM finance the otherwise money-losing public interest TV programs that us intellectual-types love. However, they do not do so for reasons of "social conscience"; they do so because they see it as good PR or an alternate form of advertising that ultimately will benefit the shareholders. As for your your dissertation on Deming, it is unnecessary, because no one has suggested that a corporation should be barred from adopting any business philosophy it believes will maximize profits. r query about whether amoral corporations can survive misses my point, which was not a suggestion that corporations SHOULD BE amoral, but rather that they inherently ARE amoral. If managers individually or collectively interpose personal morality into corporate decisionmaking, that does not mean that that morality attaches to the corporate entity, for it cannot. The public perception, of course, may be otherwise. Southwest Airlines invariably appears on the list of best places to work, and the flying public, myself included, finds their offbeat antics entertaining, but to say that the corporation itself is funloving or wacky is oxymoronic; investors are attracted by the company's past and percieved future financial performance almost exclusively. As for UPS, I would say the rank & file have been hoodwinked again by the union thug leadership: The full-time drivers, having purportedly "won" major concessions, now will have to work TWO FULL YEARS at their higher pay just to recoup the money the lost during the strike. Some victory. Joining a union may be in some workers' self-interest, but make no bones about it: doing so is a tacit admission of one's limited value and inability to achieve based on one's own merit. The union contract at the newspaper I work for keeps dozens of entirely needless positions permanently on the payroll; we must rely on questionably competent cut-and paste crews to produce pages for the printer, as was done in the 1960s, even though technology has rendered the process absolutely obsolete. Thus there is less money available for those of us who actually produce the paper's CONTENT---call us professionals or artists (and who, ironically but expectedly in a NY newsroom, are overwhelmingly liberal or socialist)---who are paid based on the value of our talents. - 10:45:20 on 25 Aug 97 GMT

Adam LOVE'S LABOUR LOST:EEEEK! A state appellate juge in California has ruled that email is no different than paper or phone calls for the basis of establishing jurisdiction over the sender. Just thought you chatterheads might want to know. Also, they say they pope, leader of the world's largest cult, drew a million deluded young idiots to a cult rally in France. I wish there WAS a god, so that when these morons die, He could laugh at them and say, "I created the universe; did you really think I gave a sh** whether you prayed to me or how you behaved, you peon? Hey, Saint Pete, here's another shmuck who thinks you have somekinda heaven to let him into. You want to tell him to lie in his box and shut up and rot? I'm pretty sick of doing it! Hey, mortal loser, why did you decide to follow the bible rather than the koran, or L. Ron Hubbard's scientology or, for that matter, Howard Stern's Private Parts? It's a f****** book, you jackass!!! I'm working on the f****** cosmos, here; do you think I wanna dictate a f****** book also? Do you have ANY IDEA the kind of advance a publisher would have to offer ME? More than you'll ever see, dead a**hole!" - 11:08:03 on 25 Aug 97 GMT

RON...--->Hey ALL...: How's everyone doing? The pain still continues in my life. I'm coping though. I called my ex-wife (1st wife of 10 years) and asked her if we lived in the same town and we were both single, would she come after me for love. She said yes. I guess I'm down on myself, and I'm worried that I'm a person not suited for having a life-long partner. My first wife assured me otherwise. I had a religious topic to discuss but, when I sat down to type my mind wandered far, far away.... - 12:11:11 on 25 Aug 97 GMT

Carl:RON: that happens to all, over the past weekend the local paper ran a story about public education and theism's reaction to it's generally not properly educating the public young. One of the issues was of course space, material and salary for teachers. Both public and religious interests were focused on government money sources but between the latter interest and government, was the separation of church and state. The story went on how the church was seeking ways around that point, and here for whatever purpose, the story included a side story of one religious group that was teaching that mathematics is god's gift to people. The story did not include how that school proceeded with that position, but what i saw was just another example of that god-thing being made to the likeness of either a man or woman; just like all else, it is only what people say it is. - 14:49:39 on 25 Aug 97 GMT

Carl:ADAM:have you ever seen described the evolution of the bible's 'eden' to jc's 'heaven', and its etc., and where did the pope type's ever figure they were goona get an eternal life? If i recall when your namesake was run outta eden, the goes that the god placed a angel between a & e and the tree o'life so's they wouldn't be completely as they the god[s]. That looks to me like even a & e were gonna expire anyway, if the tree o'life is the[our] real pot o'gold. this is just a rewrite, as once before i mentioned deming's assorted ideas, it is good to see a reasonable individual mentioned, i got a kick out of what i read by that name. - 15:25:31 on 25 Aug 97 GMT

test - 18:04:29 on 25 Aug 97 GMT

? - 20:03:24 on 26 Aug 97 GMT

Gary:The false promise of eternal life is a feature of all the world's religions, not just christianity. In fact, the concept predates the advent of mono- theism (the belief that there is a single god). The ancient Greeks, for example, beleived in some some form of afterlife (see Homer's "Odyssey", in which Ulysses journeys to the "underworld")What I find particularly idiotic about it, in all the world's religions, is that the faithful have to DIE first in order to become "immortal", which is absolute nonsense. If one suffers physical death, then in what sense is one "immortal"? By definition, immortality entails NOT DYING! Or, as Woody Allen (a noted celebrity atheist) once put it: "Most people try to acheive immortality by leaving behind monuments to themselves. I choose to acheive immortality by NOT DYING". - 21:56:04 on 26 Aug 97 GMT

Gary:The false promise of eternal life is a feature of all the world's religions, not just christianity. In fact, the concept predates the advent of mono- theism (the belief that there is a single god). The ancient Greeks, for example, beleived in some some form of afterlife (see Homer's "Odyssey", in which Ulysses journeys to the "underworld")What I find particularly idiotic about it, in all the world's religions, is that the faithful have to DIE first in order to become "immortal", which is absolute nonsense. If one suffers physical death, then in what sense is one "immortal"? By definition, immortality entails NOT DYING! Or, as Woody Allen (a noted celebrity atheist) once put it: "Most people try to acheive immortality by leaving behind monuments to themselves. I choose to acheive immortality by NOT DYING". - 21:59:02 on 26 Aug 97 GMT

Adam HELLO? ECHO!!!:Gary Gary...Was your second post that made by your immortal counterpart, the Holy Toledo Ghost of Christmas Omnipresence? Oh, and hey you in the box---I thought I told you to shut UP and ROT!!! Gary, Gary, It's interesting that you place both the ancient Greeks and Woody in the same post, as it reminds me of Stardust Memories, in which WA plays a character who is just like WA. At a screening of one of the character's movies at a college, he and Tony Roberts, who also plays himself, field questions from the students. One asks sheepishly, "How do you respond to suggestions that your movies are, well, Narcissistic?" WA answers, "Yes, I've heard that, and I beg to differ. In fact, if there was any figure of Greek mythology that I'd identify with, it certainly would NOT be Narcissus." [Long Pause] Other student: "Who WOULD it be?" WA: "Zeus." - 1:19:08 on 27 Aug 97 GMT

Joette:-->GARY..is there more to your page than the graphics? I've tried twice but that is all I get... - 2:19:38 on 27 Aug 97 GMT

Joette:-->ADAM..why do you shout at supernatural entities? Is that your equivalent to praying? - 2:22:29 on 27 Aug 97 GMT

Marlene:HI EVERYONE! Welcome Garry! GARRY- Good point, on the subject of dying to become immortal. It's actually contrary, non? JOETTE- Adam isn't the only one shouting at supernatural thingies. You wouldn't want to hear the things that come out of my mouth when things aren't going my way. BTW the PK's have come and gone. The next night out for the mens of Winnipeg is a promise to meet at Teasers to watch Saint Sally bares it all. - 3:02:28 on 27 Aug 97 GMT

Marlene:As to the money given to the churches. There is a difference between kneeling down and bending over. - 3:24:49 on 27 Aug 97 GMT

RON...--->Marlene...: Ouch! Marlene, "bending over"? I've gone too long without sex to see these types of comments in print. Cold shower time. (again) - 12:17:33 on 27 Aug 97 GMT

Joette:-->MARLENE..glad you are back! It has been pretty quiet here the last few days! It is good to hear that the Promise Keepers have found out where they aren't welcome...now if only they would get the hint everywhere else! - 13:52:18 on 27 Aug 97 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- Although the xtian boyz club wasn't welcomed with open arms by the majority of the public, three thousand, five hundred insecure men showed up at the fiasco. The women these men left at home, who BTW aren't welcome at these cult meetings, were likely mending socks and taking pregnancy tests. - 14:14:26 on 27 Aug 97 GMT

Marlene:GRANT- When I first started to post here, my big concern was how much the public was swaying toward religions and supernatural beliefs. As you pointed out, the books containing this rubbish are selling big time. The real stinger is that these books are sold out of the non-fiction isle! - 14:17:47 on 27 Aug 97 GMT

Marlene:RON- You sound like your getting back to normal, ha ha! - 14:18:57 on 27 Aug 97 GMT

Carl:OPEN: one of the views of religious types that i hold, as do some others i know, was best described many years ago by saying theists treat their faith like it is a slow running clock, they just reset it to the correct time. If any here care to see a good example go to "http://www.leaderu.com/menu/search.html" and engage a keyword search. Now, i like to flip through any an all things done by people, but this was a "WOW!" site. It was better than any nude body site i could imagine. As an example of its stuff, my view of gays is that it is their 'choice' i attribute to this view that it involves an intellectual decision. the flip side of this opinion has it that if one goes with the idea these people are born that way then someone will think to cure it. Well, at that site go to "Science" where there is an article done by people at that institution writing about their search for a cure. Now, i don't mean to turn this into a gay discussion, but these theists are a dangerous group of people. Freedom, to this group means only that of going to your knees with your hands together in giving thanks and asking for more.....of what? - 15:29:07 on 27 Aug 97 GMT

Carl:OPEN: just departed the site mentioned above, those ol'boys have some serious intentions. They espouse views and assume specific postures for the single purpose of having the only say or word on any topic or matter. What i see that surprises me, is the manner by which these theists, a term they apply to those of their ilk, they make nontheist learning as apropos to nothing. It sure looks like that place was a source for the BILL pseudonym and what that name was kindly nicely doing. I refer to that individual because his efforts when stating his views come closest to some of the philosophers of that site. As before i'm still unarmed, i jest. While those individuals are current thinker writers, i still do not see anything substantively theistically an orginal thought. I see their cogitations that way, because they only 'deny' other matters, then go on with their "feeling" and some sort of "knowing" their god, but, those things could just as well be the invisible pink unicorn. Perhaps these individuals just want to control- thought? - 22:34:20 on 27 Aug 97 GMT

Marlene:CARL- One word I really dislike with these "feeling"/"knowing" types is the word "share". It's also a word used in pop psychology. Now when it comes to the immaculate IPU, she shares nothing. - 23:55:19 on 27 Aug 97 GMT

ADAM OLD PUFF&STUFF:JOETTE...Re: NIKE. I've got no problem with them. I boycott Adidas, though, because they but advertising for entire NYC subway cars that has arrors pointing to each and every seat on the train with the message "This seat reserved for Yankee fans." F*** THAT!!! Marlene: How long have you been driving that BTW? - 1:56:20 on 28 Aug 97 GMT

ADAM HIT & RUN:Well, I'm out for the nite. Going to the Bull's Head to pop back some holy cider and celebrate the Mets' 15-6 win today. See y'all tamara-boom-dee-ay. - 1:58:59 on 28 Aug 97 GMT

Grant: CARL-- Great link. Bizarre, but very interesting. - 3:26:47 on 28 Aug 97 GMT

Grant: MARLENE-- Perhaps 95% of the populace is superstitious by nature and moves about between the religions. The ratio of superstitious/not superstitious doesn't seem to change, regardless of the advances of science and knowledge. Maybe we don't get any credit for not being superstitious, we're just born that way. Were you ever superstitious, even as a child? - 3:36:12 on 28 Aug 97 GMT

Bill..:ADAM, I'm back from Mickey Mouse land (Orlando, Fl.) and you didn't miss me as I went back and read you're post. I know a reporter for the New York Times (Roger Strong); do you work there? I concede that I may have sounded one-sided in my earlier post when I talked about "equanimity" and the "10X" factor, but I am really in support of a balance "Win-win" relationship between corporate American and the workers. Again, are you familiar with Deming (TQM) and Covey (7 habits, Principle centered leadership, etc)? And no I don't support workers that are not carrying their load or are doing useless work that can be automated. Corporations have to be competitive and make a profit. I personally own a bunch of stock, as well as real estate, and I am very much in favor of corporations making a profit. I agree that a lot of corporations inherently are amoral. The point I would like to make is that corporations should NOT be amoral and should, not only be a "legal person" under the law, but have "principles" and "character" built into their mission statements so they exhibit other human qualities and also "feel" like a person. The corporation, in my view, has to have a social conscience, concern for the environment, employee safety, customer satisfaction, employee trust, honesty, etc. Do you agree with this? When they violate basic principles, as UPS did in trying to take control of the employee's pension fund, they will suffer loss of profit. And yes the UPS employee's paid a price for their gains, but overall they won, as there will be 10,000 new permanent positions created and no loss of pension fund control. Plus many Americans supported them, as I did by sending them money, because it was an honorable strike. Are you a Republican, that supports big business, and how do you feel about the religious Right-wing taking over the party? What does all this have to do with religion? I guess it's a question about morals and principles. Religionists get their morals from the bible or other god-inspired books, but where have you, as an atheists, developed you're morals from? Would you're morals not be similar to that which a corporation should develop, based on long-term self-interests? - 11:06:47 on 28 Aug 97 GMT

Bill...:CARL, Like the ball teams you manage, you are "off base" once again in you're efforts to box-a-tize me. - 11:11:20 on 28 Aug 97 GMT

Grant: BILL-- If a corporation is to become a moral entity, who gets to make the rules? Who gets to decide what is moral? Is it to belong to a political party? Is it to be pro- or anti- abortion? I once worked for a company that had morning prayer. When it was my turn to pray I would decline. This was not taken well. Every time it was my turn they would still ask me, and act incredulous when I declined. Is this what you have in mind? Maybe they should just make their widgets. A corporation is not a person. You're talking about another opportunity for people to impose their beliefs on others. - 12:17:23 on 28 Aug 97 GMT

Bill...:GRANT, Corporations cannot discriminate (race, sex, religion, age, etc) under law. Asking you to pray is discrimination and even harassment. I would have filed charges against them if they continued this practice. As for what to follow or who to follow goes, a corporation should follow what has proven to be successful (i.e. Dr. Deming 'TQM philosophy', Covey philosophy, etc). Are you familiar with these authors and do you believe what they have said, and that the concrete results over time, has legitimized their philosophy? A representative team, made up of a cross-section of all its employees, should study successful business philosophies and make recommendations as to which one's to pursue. Also they should develop a Mission statement that incorporates these principles and philosophy to let everyone know what to strive for in proper successful business practices. A Corporation IS a person, in a sense, because it's made up of people who operate it. How can it not be like a person? The manner in which it operates, and it's policies, is very much a result of human philosophies. Do you not believe that a corporation as a whole should exhibit certain principles and a social conscience (i.e. concern for the environment, employee safety, customer satisfaction, employee trust, honesty, etc.)? - 13:03:43 on 28 Aug 97 GMT

Carl:BILL: g'mornin' BILL, here anyhows, for the game your side didn't get my signs right, i merely said "it looks like a place, etc." and it was only a trailer to the comment about those others at the site i put forward as a "WOW" site, where their position holds all nontheist learning as meaning relevant to nothing. Your posts on QM\QP seem very much like the writing i saw there. There wee no witnesses that placed you therein the site, it only looked connectable. - 14:34:33 on 28 Aug 97 GMT

Carl:MARLENE: have you had the good fortune of visiting the IPU site, i was there once and one of these days i'll go again to go over other revelations confessed to by others. Awhile back someone here brought up the idea of either a dialogue or maybe it was about somekind of discussion 'somethin or other', and by the way i share in your revulsion of 'pop-pschos' who like newagers seem to but seek new avenues of expression. That is a laudable idea, we probably agree, where we i part with them, is where they, like theists, span the chasm between the known and the unknown via the proverbial "leap of faith". Well, when i want to go from Marin to SF, i still use the bridge and don't see some angel jc his ma or satan clearing me of that cold fast moving salt water headin out to the ocean blue. But anyway, let them say something substantive. - 15:01:34 on 28 Aug 97 GMT

Marlene:GRANT- As a child, I wouldn't say as I was superstitious, I was taught that there was a god (a being who loves you and is gental and kind), the easter bunny (who brought chocolate eggs), a tooth fairy (who left money for fallen out baby teeth) and a santa claus (to brought me presents). The first doubt I had as a kid was with god because along with the good things that happened while growing up there were also bad things. If god was there, I reasoned, he wouldn't let the bad things happen. Next to go was the tooth fairy because after talking to my friends, 30% didn't get money for their teeth. I asked my parents why????? and they told me the truth. The rest of it just fell into place. So I decided, quite young, that if something were real then there had to be evidence to back it up. If something wasn't real then there also had to be evidence to prove it wasn't. The belief was fine as a child and fun but as I grew up, I found it was much more fun to discover the realities of the situation. I disagree that it is natural to have beliefs in things that aren't there. I think this is a learned behavior and it can be corrected. - 15:01:35 on 28 Aug 97 GMT

Marlene:CARL- During chemical imbalances, I talk to the IPU. She sends vibes of energy from her immaculate horn to my sole which is located in my left army boot. She is very upset with the site on the web that claims they have been given the immaculate Word. She wants me to "share" with the members of this discussion that Noah, the assshole, was sick of manna and decided to skin and eat the unicorns. Now that is the Truth, why to this day, there are no unicorns roaming the Earth. - 15:12:22 on 28 Aug 97 GMT

Marlene:CARL- And to add to that, she says that's the only thing that she will Share with Earthlings!!! - 15:13:40 on 28 Aug 97 GMT

PETER---------:GRANT---Isn't it incredible how much superstition-based rhetoric one is exposed to on a daily basis, practically everywhere? It's like some drooling totally irrational monster that seems to be there and KNOWS that upwards of 90% of the population( and I would consider that to be a conservative number ) will sooner or later buy into some facet of it, with the presumption that this same percentage does not have that tiny ability to facilitate critical thinking? It's getting to the point now where I cannot look at a newspaper, watch a TV show where I KNOW , millions upon millions of individuals are about to be duped. And what even frightens me more is that when they have itegrated this "pseudo scientific" crapola, they then a look at a skeptic with suspicion and mistrust; someone to avoid and be seen as a "touble maker" because they are in the " minority". - 15:20:40 on 28 Aug 97 GMT

Marlene:PETER- How about TV? Even the cartoons! - 18:49:40 on 28 Aug 97 GMT

Carl:PETER: superstition and children if permitted, has disastrous consequences that theist-types look for and even promote. Some promotional aspects include of course sunday school, what utter nonsense, and elsewhere the cartoons where someone assumes the kids can't make out the difference between animation and reality, so "they" go forward and ruin all my favorite Bug's Bunny stuff. Here are some examples of this new generation being protected from bugs and fed jc stuff; "H2O is hot water, and CO2 is cold water" & "Respiration is composed of two acts, first inspiration, and then expectoration." & "Dew is formed on leaves when the sun shines down on them and makes them perspire."- well, these few entrys represent some test answers and essays from youngsters. With this as example of youth today, no wonder 95% of the U.S. goes along with superstitious virgin births and that rot. Those people young and old who make the majority are a regrettable lot. - 19:24:43 on 28 Aug 97 GMT

Peter:MARLENE---Ahh yes, the cartoons. Now what percentage of North American adults believe that dinosaurs co-existed with cavemen, as the result of watching years and years of "Flintstone" cartoons? Most think that this mis-information is harmless, but where does one then draw the "bullshit-factor" line ? - 19:48:41 on 28 Aug 97 GMT

Joette:-->CARL/MARLENE..what is this IPU site you are speaking about? Sounds interesting! - 21:44:17 on 28 Aug 97 GMT

Joette :-->TO ALL..I was disturbed to read tonight that there is a "Million Women March" being planned for Philadelphia in October. Being anti-collectivist, this mob mentality really worries me, especially since it is going to be preaching the same Nation of Islam bullshit that we heard in Washington last year. Why are they doing this? What purpose does it serve? - 21:47:08 on 28 Aug 97 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- It serves the same purpose as those PK's. It presents to society a strong message that god/allah/or whatever is a bonding factor as well as a spiritual factor in humanity. Scary, huh? Oops! that should have been eh? given our geographic location. - 22:15:50 on 28 Aug 97 GMT

Marlene :Now for the IPU site on the Web. Although the IPU disaproves of her Word being misrepresented. - 22:21:50 on 28 Aug 97 GMT

Joette:-->MARLENE..thanks! I needed a good laugh today! - 22:38:04 on 28 Aug 97 GMT

ADAM IT'S AAAAWWN NOW!!!:To Bill: still disagreement as sharp as nail polish remover; ALL CORPORATIONS ARE INHERENTLY AMORAL, ALWAYS. They are persons ONLY to the extent that they have certain legal rights and responsibilities of people, but have no other human characteristics. I maintain that you still are projecting your own sense of conscienciousness outward upon an inanimate structure (as do the godlilocks upon the cosmos to come up with Don King of the Universe). A company may adopt purportedly "compassionate" policies regarding its staff or charitable work, but again, only as a means of maintaining their existence as capital pools and maximizers of their owners' profits. Remember, corporations are not people; soilent green is PEOPLE!!! And "Up With People" are less people than corporations. Corporations are legal persons who need people to operate them and, as such, are the luckiest people in the world (Lou Gherig notwithstanding and, at any rate, he was probably the LEAST LUCKY man on the face of the earth. I mean, what are the odds that you would contract an incurable, fatal disease that had the same name as you? It's like, "Hey, Iron Horse, I got a disease right here wit' your name written all over it.")İİİİİİİİİ Speaking of baseball, Shrewless Jo, I will not be in my office Friday, and will be in Baltimore on the weekend. Thus, I may not be posting before the 1st Mets-Blue Gays game. As far as I'm concerned, the bet is ON.��������Has everyone heard that the U.S. may temporarily relax travel restrictions to Cuba in January to allow American godlilocks to flock to see JohnPaulGeorgeRingo II, the world's leading cult leader and head tote 'em Pole? I say, let Castro keep the bastards, and we'll call the Mariella boat flotsam a wash and wear. Maybe JP and Fidel (while Havana burns) can be melded into one autocrat with symetrical (and reversible) hat-beard combo called Castro-pope. He could have a bishop's crook that doubles as an AK-47 assault rifle. - 23:44:02 on 28 Aug 97 GMT

ADAM How'z Bayou?:JO-JO-JO and a BOTTLE of RUM: Did that last post qualify as a "good laugh today?" Speak now, or forever hold your piece of Halvah. - 23:48:02 on 28 Aug 97 GMT

ADAM Completing the TROIKA:BILL me LATER: I do not work for the Times, nor do I know this so-called Bill "Strong." I do, howevew, have a fwiend in Wome named "Biggus Dickus." - 23:50:08 on 28 Aug 97 GMT

Joette:-->aMAD..yes, unqualified guffaws eminating from deep within my throat. Speaking of deep throat, the Mets suck! I hope you will have the pleasure of seeing Roger's number of wins match is jersey number! - 0:05:50 on 29 Aug 97 GMT

peanut gallery:-->ADAM..the Lou Gehrig story is the oldest bit of Stengalese in the books! - 0:08:05 on 29 Aug 97 GMT

ADAM I got yer' peanut gallery right here!~~~:Nought Gallery....I believe that Carl knows a Stengalese guy that makes great bagels. Hey, Jo-Raja-the-Rock-ette: Talk about Fantasy Baseball! I'll have the shirt off your backtalk! And as for "match is," we doneed no stinkin' match is. - 0:44:48 on 29 Aug 97 GMT

Bill..:ADAM, I disagree! Isn't you're fwiend in Wome named "Biggus Dickus" really just the Visible Pink Unicorn? - 0:53:21 on 29 Aug 97 GMT

Joette:-->ADAM..watch it, or I'll be BADGEring you everytime you hit "add" without proof reading! - 2:54:12 on 29 Aug 97 GMT

ZON:Lets do some mind bending. Lets talk about creation and the bible and see if this makes sense! They say that god created this place in six days, on the seventh day he laid back and checked out his creation. They said that the stars were created so the night wasn't so black. If this doesn't sound like a line of shit, I don't know what does! Then their was Adam and Eve, some think Adam and Steve but we won't get into that. They were told you are to have sex and reproduce, then have sex with your kids and reproduce and populate the world. And when they got bigger I guess 13 or 14 you would have sex to produce more people. And as you can see this goes on and on. Now explain to me how many thousands of years it would take to reach our population as it is today? Now work in the probability factor of the kids you produced were girls. I imagine 1 out of 2 for the sake of argument. Now think how many years it would take to reach our population! And if this was true according to the law of genetics, we would all me a bunch of misfits! Now how can anyone believe in a religion that promotes incest in the begining, and then says it's a sin. Sounds strange to me! Oh yeah! Adam lived to about 845 years old. Know one in the history as we know it has lived that long. We have a problem making it to 70 with our tecnology. You think they had better tech. than we do now? I kind of doubt it! Then they said Adam and Eve ate the bad apple and now we are all sinners now and we must repent to god for our salvation! They said they made a consious decision to eat the bad boy. Which leads me into the next problem! When did man become consious? Fact shows us around 3000 years ago. We look at the first recorded book in history which was the Illiad. This book clearly shows that the book was wrote by unconsious minds that were hallucinating! Then about 200 to 300 years later there was the book Oddesy which clearly shows man made the leap to consiousness and shows introspective thinking. Yes, consiousness is man made the facts are all there. No arguments their! I know people desperatly want to believe the big hoax. Why was consiousness created? To escape extinction. To deal with the ever increasing complexity of society. Man has been around for 100,000 years plus. So I don't believe this Adam and Eve business. If you do I got some nice property to sell you! Now lets look at Jesus, yes, I believe he did exist and history does show it. He did try to sway the people to one god. Yes people were still hallucinating, atleast a lot of them were back then. History shows that man would hallucinate with the right brain and have visions and belive the gods were talking to him he would then send these hallucinations to the left brain and follow thru. Yes Jesus was definitely trying to help at that point! Trying to wake up the people on some level, he was good a good man! Now look who killed this nice guy, the Romans. Now look who started catholisism about 200 years after they murdered the poor guy and hung him out to dry. Who by the way is the most powerful religon in the world today? Give you one guess. Are these some nice guys or what? They tell us how we are suppose to live, eat, sleep and when to have sex! Did you know that the Catholic's paid and supported all the scientific reasearch back then, and if you didn't tell the church what they wanted to hear and if you tried to tell the people your discoveries, bye, bye Charlie! You were killed! Now how can a religion that preaches killing is a mortal sin kill some of the most brilliant minds back then? Capernicus discovered that we revolved around the universe not the universe revolved around us! But he knew the bye bye Charlie routine and didn't release his monumental discovery until he was on his death bed. Why did the church fear this discovery? Because they have been saying for about 1500 years that the Earth was the geocentric of the universe, so they could point up and say, this is where heaven is, and point down and say, this is where hell is! So when Capurnicus let the cat out of the bag, it shot their theory all to hell. Yes, another minor point, Pope Innocent, back I believe about 1100 -1200 A.D. was responsible for murdering millions of innocent women. He believed they were evil and were witches and what have you. Yeah! They don't tell you that in Sunday School. A lot of other Popes did some very hidious crimes which they don't like to tells us, but if you dig into the books, the facts are all there. What a really nice religious group this is! Yes they discovered the most powerful weapon of all time to use and manipulate mankind. It is called Guilt! If you do this you are a sinner and you will go to hell! God knows what you are thinking all the time. How in the hell can anyone constantly know every thought of every person, what about 4 billion people, sounds like a fish story to me! But hey, you don't believe me, you are going to hell. Hmm! Now if this creator was this brilliant, why in the hell did he give us fig leaves and not some Levis and Nikes. Why no airplanes, trains, cars, space shuttle and the list goes on... If you look at the intelligence we have know, I guess you can say we are a bit briter than he was then! Yes, we even have nuclear power, we can create life, we can life, we can manipulate atoms thru nano-technology we can manipulate the atmosphere with HAARP it amazing what we can do now! If god would have given us these tools back then it would save us a lot of bullshit and saved millions and millions of innocent people's lives! But they will say, you had to learn on your own. Is there divine intervention? Hell no! If there was Hitler wouldn't of been able to slaughter millions of Jews, Stalin couldn't of starved 10 million people to death! Our innocent children would not be raped, killed, tortured like they are today! These precious innocent children taken from our lives. Why? God needs them now, so they say. Sounds like bullshit to me! Oh! but god just saved me from doing something stupid and losing my life, but boy, 6 million Jews tortured. Don't sound like someone steped in here! So why this religion business? To control the masses, to put fear in their lives, to take their money and become even more powerful, like they need that. Yes, people want to believe in magic. That way they don't have to take responsibility for their own lives and actions. We'll let the church tell us and the so called good book how we are suppose to live. Yes, it's lonely out here, but someone has to take responsibility for their actions and produce values for people that will benefit mankind not distroy values like religion, government and the list goes on. People need to wake up and get rid of this 2000 year hoax that has been so masterfully played out! When this hoax is truely exposed, the world will change to the most beautiful place anyone can ever imagine! In closing, I could go on and on, but one final thought. They say life after death, Jesus came back 3 days later and said, for sure! Now I don't know about you, but I have yet to see my relatives, friends, or anybody for that matter, who came back after being dead for 1-3 years later and said, you know it's all true, this is what happens. But you will hear, yeah, I was clinically dead for 5 minutes and this is what I saw, and now I'm going to write a book. He lives! Go figure! But until someone I know comes back from being dead 3 years and says, pull up a chair and pour a cup, I got one hell of a story to tell you! I'll believe it then. - 6:38:51 on 29 Aug 97 GMT

. - 13:05:02 on 29 Aug 97 GMT

Alone I was a midnight rider on a cloud of smoke I could make a woman hang on every single stroke I was an iron man I had a master plan But I was alone I could hear you breathing With a sigh of the wind I remember how your body started trembling Oh, what's a night it's been And for the state I'm in I'm still alone And all the wonders made for the Earth And all the hearts in all creation Somehow I always end up alone Always end up alone So I play, I'll wait 'Cause you know that love takes time We came so far Just the beat of a lonely heart And it's mine I don't want to be alone Well, since I got no message on your answer phone And since you're busy every minute. I just stay at home I make believe you care I feel you everywhere But I'm still alone I'm on a wheel of fortune with a twist of fate 'Cause I know it isn't heaven, is it love or hate Am I the subject of the pain An I the stranger in the rain I am alone And if there glory there to behold Maybe it's my imagination Another story there to be told So I play, I'll wait And I pray it's not too late We came so far Just a beat of a lonely heart And it's mine I don't want to be alone And all the wonders made for the Earth And all the hearts in all creation Another story there to be told So I play, I'll wait And I pray it's not too late We came so far Just a beat of a lonely heart And it's mine I don't want to be alone Gone, but not out of sight I'm caught in the rain and there's no one home Face the heat of the night The one that you love's got a heart that's made of stone Shine and search for the light And sooner or later you'll be cruising on your ocean And clean out of sight I'm caught in the rain and there's no one home - 13:06:23 on 29 Aug 97 GMT

Grant: BILL-- I confess that economics is not an area of interest for me. I'm not familiar with Dr. Deming 'TQM philosophy', Covey philosophy, etc., but I didn't talk about economics. I think a corporation is like a person in that it acts through self interest. If Texaco, for example, is doing environmental work it is for a tangible benefit for them, and we the consumer pick up the tab. I'd rather buy environmental work from someone without a vested interest. From Texaco I desire only gasoline. From my experience I'd say that a company will only pay in wages, benefits, and fair treatment that which is necessary to obtain and retain the caliber of employee that they require. Any grandiose talk of social good deeds falls under marketing. Whatever ideal principles I think a corporation should exhibit has little bearing on what they do or will exhibit. - 13:16:54 on 29 Aug 97 GMT

Grant:MARLENE-- I don't know if superstitious behavior is learned or not. What makes me wonder is the fact that I,ve never seen anyone converted from superstitious to not superstitious. I do agree that superstitious behavior is encouraged, almost at gunpoint. - 13:25:10 on 29 Aug 97 GMT

Grant:PETER-- I agree. I think it's peculiar that people think skeptics "believe in nothing," when actually skeptics believe in everything that exists, but think it's unwise to believe in more than exists. - 13:31:27 on 29 Aug 97 GMT

Carl:ANY: Saw a good tv program last nite "Junk Science" was it called, it presented the topic from a variety of aspects, from individual, money, government, institutional and the likes. In particular for this site I'll pass on for those who did not see the program the segment about agent orange and its' dioxen[sic?] components. It reported that in Italy a dioxin factory lost control of its' production operations and the stuff covered the entire nearby town, for the towns citisens the worst of things was expected. There were assorted irregularities but no deaths, so they merely covered the towns area with sheets of plastic and dirt atop the plastic and reconstructed the twon over that covered area. Now H2O from that site is consumed, the site includes a park and generally life goes on. That story was contrasted by what was done to a place in the USA where everyone in the town was relocated the site was declared offlimits and billions of dollars poured into its restoration, that still in progress. Those participating in that action say its uncalled for and cash wasteful. the question, who said agent orange is bad. Other storys included the question of what and who proves that breast implants are harmful? it was good viewing for scepticism. - 14:56:10 on 29 Aug 97 GMT

Peter:Time now to take my periodical shot at BILL. Bill has a unique style of presenting, and then defending an argument which is very much like: first arguing apples, then arguing oranges, then attempting to say that apples are oranges, when that doesn't work meld them into some unidentifiable puree. Regardless of what counter-arguments are brought forth, NEVER admit defeat. When this fails, change the subject mid-stream and make some awkward attempt at humour. It's like chasing a ghost on a freeway. Bill, you're just such a riot. - 15:26:10 on 29 Aug 97 GMT

PETER---:There is a person called ZON-----Whose posting is much, much too long long----He gives us a medley ----But we know it already---And he spells "Copernicus" wrong - 15:39:14 on 29 Aug 97 GMT

Carl:MARLENE: your PK site is a lovable place, it clearly exemplfies Nietzches qords "Belief means not wanting to know what is true" - 18:32:11 on 29 Aug 97 GMT

Rob:ALL: Guess who? Yes, it's your absent, amiable atheist, Rob ;) I am afraid this is only a fleeting visit, on my brother's laptop. Glad to see you survived the eviction and the "Carrie on" -back in business in October. In the meantime, "Onward Christian soldiers" (or is that "Beware Christian Soldiers". - 19:58:34 on 29 Aug 97 GMT

Carl:CONT'd; still on "Junk Science", another portrayal concerned 'crak babys'. Back when this was a hot topic it presented pictures of one of these unfortunate newborn. She was supposed to be burdened under all evil auspices known to modern science. [that, evil-science, is contradictory- no?] Well, that newborn as a mature young woman was attractive and talented. She and most others grew-up just fine. The interesting segment included an interview with the Chicago MD who first uttered the opinion that grew into the crak-baby image. He said that if in terms of a scientific opinion, time has proven it erroneous, that assorted others turned it into the c-baby thing was probably, which also was said by the program host, and the MD said was due to other interests. Turns out both political concervatives and liberals wanted to address the drug issue with their own flair and that c-baby image served both interests just fine. Perhaps, this accounts for things like those test and quiz answers i posted that were selected three pages of such. Anyone can say anything if enough bodys agree,e.g.- theism, or if enough money is obtainable,e.g.- tax free churchs, then lets do it, god, its easy so why not? - 21:09:39 on 29 Aug 97 GMT

Marlene:CARL- You mean the IPU site, non??? Anyway, I think the subject you brought up on misinformation is a really good one! There are stats on everything from how many smoke to how many have pimples on their asses caused by nicotine. Many are very misleading! I'm sure this young lady who was labeled a "crack baby" would not like the label let alone to be told that something is or may be wrong with her because her mom did crack. GOOD TOPIC! ROB- Missed you but..have you come back from the future...October?????????? - 21:24:58 on 29 Aug 97 GMT

Joette:-->GRANT..superstitions are exactly the same as theism (re Pascal's Wager). If you are taught that you should not walk under a ladder, you avoid doing so just in case. That probably isn't a good example, as a person could get hit with something if they walk under a ladder. I know that there are one or two superstitions that were pounded into my head as a child that still terrify me (a bird hitting a window and getting kill signifies a death of someone close) and with that particular one, it caused great anxiety when I took up collecting exotic birds and had few die hitting windows and television sets... - 21:28:17 on 29 Aug 97 GMT

Carl:MARLENE: I'm unsure if i'd previously visited the site you posted or not, there was one site i recall because it featured a discussion-like program. The entire discussion related to the wonder and greatness of the IPU. It goes along quite well with my view of what any group of individuals can do. The difficulty of such group efforts, that you resist and i agree completely, are collective efforts, like our dear now departed CD so wanted for her/his particular interest, is they can't see the trees because of the forest. or however that goes. As for that young female she said that the term was an irritant and generally incomprehensible. - 22:20:58 on 29 Aug 97 GMT

carl:ANY: if you are a Trekker-type, or of the Outer-Limits ilk, or X-Files stuff check out "http://www.world-famous.com/MontaukStuff/**MontaukHome.html" then do a name search for "Aleister Crowley" a name relevant to first site, its fun stuff, maybe Junk-like science but silly anyway. - 22:59:37 on 29 Aug 97 GMT

Bill..:GRANT, I agree that corporations-- like people --operate out of self-interest, but part of their long term self-interest is by gaining trust, by doing benevolent things for others or the environment, and thereby increasing their creditability and subsequent market share. God, its been a long day! - 1:01:04 on 30 Aug 97 GMT

Bill..:HEY PETER, I see you're catching on, but please don't be giving away my secrets to the world! This latest project at work is trying to defeat me, but I'm still hanging on to my visible… well, uhuhuh… ass! How's that for a switch in midstream? Working the weekend sucks, but I'm off for a week starting Monday, Cheers! - 1:01:34 on 30 Aug 97 GMT

Grant:OPEN-- Zon or Zonpower is part of the Neo-tech cult, should inquiring minds want to know. You remember Zon the long-winded? - 4:38:27 on 30 Aug 97 GMT

Grant: JOETTE-- I had not heard that one- the birds hitting the window. What do you think? Is superstitious behavior learned? Have you noticed that people who believe in god also believe numerous other peculiar things? - 5:05:58 on 30 Aug 97 GMT

Joette:-->GRANT..thanks for the Zon url. Too bad advertising has to invade every venue...as far as superstitions go, I know that behaviour such as that is learned. If no one told us about black cats, god or faeries, we wouldn't concern ourselves with such nonsense. I took a "cognitive behaviour" course once, and we had to put superstitions aside and look at all the outside factors that would determine our "luck". It was interesting to analyze our actions surrounding our superstitious beliefs. - 11:46:13 on 30 Aug 97 GMT

Grant:JOETTE-- I wonder if we have another poster with an agenda. Too suspicious? Gotta go to work. :-( - 13:33:15 on 30 Aug 97 GMT

Joette:-->GRANT..make that two sad faces..I'm working today too! Oh, these cold, heartless corporations who only think of the bottom line! What about me?? Don't I count? hahahahaha - 18:37:35 on 30 Aug 97 GMT

Grant:JOETTE-- That was funny! Well, we've done it. We've outlasted them all. It's just you and me. - 4:21:48 on 31 Aug 97 GMT

Joette:-->TO ALL..I am sure you have all heard the news about Princess Diana...I have been watching the coverage, and in England there are small riots going on at the offices of the newspapers because the general feeling is that the press killed her. It will be strange not seeing her on the news almost every day of the year. - 12:14:56 on 31 Aug 97 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- Isn't it terrible how one can't have a moments peace if they are a VIP!!! While I feel that Diana was an important person, I also feel anyone is important. I've listened to CNN all last night and then the local radio channel this morning and I still haven't found out how the body guard is or his name. Already the media are going on about Diana's relationship with Faad (sp) and interviewing his former girlfriend. Shit! What does that have to do with their deaths! Clinton is saying his prayers! What good is that going to do??? As always, it is not the person who dies that truly suffers, it's those who loved them. I have real sympathy for her children and other family and friends who were so close to her. She had done a lot of good things in her lifetime and she is remembered with fondness, IMO for these things. - 14:27:45 on 31 Aug 97 GMT

Peter:....A tragic, tragic death which when retraced--religion can be found as the cause. Since a prime requirement of most religions( especially Christianity ) is the abandonment of one's mind, not one's pursuit to utilize their own mind as something to be constantly and FULLY persued. I know of no other organization whose prime purpose is that of embracing ignorance and contempt for reality. The majority of the world's citizens are religious, and thus not recognizing mindlessness as something which should be held in contempt. This "dumbing down" or "anti-intelligence" thus makes a huge market for publications that concern themselves with spreading scandal and other garbage on well-known people and full advantage of this. Thier tapping into the general anti-mind market makes them millions of dollars. They pay their "contributors" millions in order to sell thier mindless product--the "contributors" go to great lengths to obtain thier marketable product, such as chasing ex-wives of the crown prince through a tunnel, just to snap some blurry photograph, so all the world's no-minds appetite for this non-consequential bullshit is satisfied. - 15:10:18 on 31 Aug 97 GMT

Grant:.....The paper says "France Info radio said at least some of the photographers took pictures before help arrived- and that one of the photographers was beaten at the scene by horrified witnesses." - 15:32:49 on 31 Aug 97 GMT

Joette:-->GRANT..the story seems to be true. There are 7 photographers how are being held, and will likely be charged with failing to assist in a rescue. Already the pictures of the crash (complete with mangled bodies) are up for sale for millions of dollars. Sick, sick, sick. Event the f****** National Enquirer said they aren't interested, but let's just wait and see...I am so pissed off at the coverage, especially by CNN. Ala O.J. Simpson, they have a logo and theme song for their coverage, and they are looking for any piece of bullshit they can dig up to make it sound like breaking news. Diana wanted to be left alone in life, and it is a travesty how they refuse to let her alone in death. While some may think she was just a bimbo, she had a profound affect on billions of people, and this event is going to change the history of the entire public dealings with the monarchy. Sorry for rambling, but I am really saddened that one person can't even go out on a date with a new love and not being allowed the dignity to live a normal life..... - 19:43:31 on 31 Aug 97 GMT

Joette:-->PETER..sorry, you are stretching it. Your blaming religion for a particular event is a little too broad in my opinion. Not all people interested in digging up dirt are religious. In this instance, it would be your beloved capitalism that is to blame. There is a market for the product the papparzi sell, and they will do what they have to do to earn their daily bread. If the accident had not happened, you wouldn't be giving it another thought, and you would be saying, "Let the market decide." - 19:47:50 on 31 Aug 97 GMT

Peter:JOETTE--I don't think it is too broad at all. The main focus of religion is to guide one's morals, and its very survival is dependent on one's abandonment of their mind. You are correct when saying not all no-minds are religious, but most peolpe on earth ARE religious, and most of them make no attempt at all to remedy this situation--in fact they ultimately encourage and praise evasion of the mind, and as a self-appointed source of guiding human beings, then I feel it is their respondsibilty to teach morals which deal with the survival of mankind. This tragedy can be pinpointed to pervasive mindlessness of society, and religion can be blamed as the greatest perpotrator of mindlessness. - 20:03:40 on 31 Aug 97 GMT

Joette:-->Peter..yes, religion = mindlessness, but not all mindlessnes is attributable to religion. I am an atheist but I play the lotteries, even though the odds are 14 million to 1 that I might win the jackpot. Pretty mindless of me to keep wasting my money, don't you think? It is not religion that is making me buy those tickets every day, and it is not some inherent though planted in me via the church that entices me to do so. In a nutshell, this is one event that we can not blame on religion. Instead, concentrate on the religious fight going on in Algiers where villages are being wiped out in the middle of the night as happened on Friday. Compare the two events, and you will see that if you try to blame Princess Diana's death on religion, you are comparing apples to oranges, and then you are doing what you accuse Bill of doing. - 20:24:31 on 31 Aug 97 GMT

Peter:JOETTE--I see your point--and will back off a tad inasmuch as there can be other factors other than religion involved here, but I'll put it at the top of the list as the underlying guilty party here. Religious fighting in Algeria? This is tragic andsickening as well, and directly the result of religious dogmaticism, but isn't bringing THIS up comparing apples to oranges? - 20:48:22 on 31 Aug 97 GMT

Joette (always with the last word):-->PETER..marigamorale - 22:33:18 on 31 Aug 97 GMT