PapaSam:Joette. I'm glad somebody bit. Answer: An idiot savante. Did you know that only 4% of the members of Mensa are atheists, 6% would not commit themselves because it was too personal a question to answer. So much for IQ! - 0:02:29 on 1 Dec 97 GMT

Rob:Papasam: Were those stats displayed in a table! Well, I think I probably constitute 2of the 4%! They're mostly wankers though, intellectually speaking. - 0:13:07 on 1 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:-->ROB...we are not wankers! And I make up the other 2%! - 0:16:46 on 1 Dec 97 GMT

Rob:Joette: I beg to differ. Such a poncey thing to join. I was 15- what was your excuse? Besides, intellectually speaking they are wankers, as they mostly sit around playing with themselves, intellectually speaking. - 0:20:25 on 1 Dec 97 GMT

PapaSam:Marlene: If you liked that one from Shakespeare you'll love the one from Gilbert & Sullivan's "Mikado" where Pooh-Bah states:"I am, in point of fact a particular haughty and exclusive person of pre-Adamite ancestral descent. You will understand this when I tell you that I can trace my ancestry back to a protoplasmal primordial atomic globule." - 0:23:23 on 1 Dec 97 GMT

Rob:Papasam: Does Pooh-Bah have a friend called Piglet, with a ring of gold through his nose? That might explain it... - 0:26:30 on 1 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:--->ROB..so, intellectually speaking, you sit around and wank? Obviously, you did poorly in the test, as Piglet is from Winnie-the-Pooh-Bah! - 0:34:23 on 1 Dec 97 GMT

Rob:Joette: Yes- that was the joke actually. FYI, the test was dandy- but I'm not here to blow my own trumpet (in-joke!) - 0:41:33 on 1 Dec 97 GMT

PapaSam:Ah hah! The truth is out! The site is permeated with Closet Mensans! The stats came from American Mensa Ltd. - which, if you're interested, also has a boutique, Honest! Speaking of closets, did you know that PapaSam Enterprises is in the closet business? PapaSam's Closet Factory, the oldest and most respected name in closets for Gays, Lesbians, and Bisexuals has just branched out with its new line of products. The new patented line of CLOSETS FOR CLOSET ATHEISTS! You can choose your accesory. We have Closets with your choice of Baptismal Font, Baptismal Pool, Wailing Wall, Prayer Rug, Confessional, or Seagull Statue. Closets also built to your specs. Be the first in your neighborhood, ORDER NOW! Now, thanks to you all, I can introduce another line - Closets for Closet Mensans. Thank you. - 3:21:35 on 1 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:-->I AM SAM...is being a member of Mensa a good thing, or a bad thing? From here on in, I'll stick to the 5th! - 3:36:40 on 1 Dec 97 GMT

PapaSam:MARLENE. It's been over 70 years since I read JC - that's "Julius Caesar" not the other one. My English teacher, Miss Cunnungham, taught me more than I ever learned in two years of College English. She inspired in me a love of Shakespeare which has increased with the years. Do I read the "Skeptic"? As a faithful atheist - here I follow with another quote from the Bard - " --and it must follow as night doth follow day--". I read "Free Inquiry", "The Skeptical Inquirer" the "New York Area Skeptic" etc. And now, "The curfew tolls the knell of parting day" (Gray) and so "to sleep, perchance to dream-" (back to the Bard) "Good night, Good night, Parting *%#*#* OK PapaSam. Shut up already! Showoff! - 3:51:17 on 1 Dec 97 GMT

PapaSam:Joette. Being a member of Mensa is neither good or bad. To be honest, it's an ego trip. I think most people think well of themselves, except of course, those suffering from low self esteem. Some of us are born with a natural athletic ability, some of us have the talent to dance, or paint or write. Some do not have thes obvious talents but have the ability to wipe away a child's tear, to give comfort to the sick or otherwise just give a helping hand when needed. We don't deserve any credit for whatever talent we may possess. A talent or a fault, is 'an accident of birth' so to speak. Whether we utilize our talents or not brings up the old "nature vs nurture" controversary. My personal view is that both have an effect and that the degree of each varies with the individual. I do not consider myself an expert in the field. - 4:18:14 on 1 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:--->SAM..why would it be an ego trip? There are clubs for amateur astrologists, clubs for bird watchers, clubs for people who believe in a god, senior citizens clubs, golf clubs and thousands of other clubs everywhere. So why would a club for people who have the ability to use logic be an ego trip? I am sure that many Mensans also have all the abilities you cited in your last post, and so, I take exception to your statement. - 11:53:32 on 1 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:Goodmorning! Did anyone watch "Annabell's Wish" last night put on by the Make a Wish Foundation? Not once did they mention religion! I was impressed! Then of course there was King of the Hill, anyone watch that? Anyway Bobby needed a excuse to stay home by himself so he told his mom that there was a show on TV he wanted to watch, he said, "it's about jesus". He got to stay home. PAPASAM- I wouldn't begin to qualify for Mensa! Your correct of course in that atheists are not necessarily high IQ'ed. One trait that atheists may all have in common is blind trust or as some would call it "faith". - 14:43:51 on 1 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:PAPASAM- That should have read "lack of blind trust". - 14:45:49 on 1 Dec 97 GMT

Steven:ANY<<>> ahhh, a four day weekend, gotta love it! - 15:00:17 on 1 Dec 97 GMT

Steven:JOETTE<<>> I don't know if you like hocky, but down here in Tejas we have a team that is on fire, the Dallas Stars (formerly Minn. North Stars). - 15:01:24 on 1 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:--->STEVEN..being a Canuck, the first gift we receive in our lives is a hockey stick, and then when we can walk, we learn to skate. However, I go against the norm, as I thing hockey is not a very interesting game, however, I am a hockey widow about 4 times a week. After seeing hundreds of games, I still haven't figured out the difference between icing and offside, even though it is explained to me everytime I see a game. It's just like Quake not understanding that there is no god. - 15:07:58 on 1 Dec 97 GMT

Steven:JOETTE<<>> I could explain iceing and offsides to ya but that would be like an Canadian explaining the infield fly rule to a Texan. - 15:27:59 on 1 Dec 97 GMT

Carl:OPEN: On the 11\30 60 min.program saw another example of manmade religion, also on the line of thought of the original sin idea. Im Africa, Ghana comes up, the black women there suffer slavery- it was said, for crimes committed by their ancestors. Their debts are settled by the females being made slaves and sexual partners of the priest/village religious leader or whatever that was. That kind of arrangement could and was related back to probably dead relatives, and everyone went along with the program. The others freely submitted their females relatives to the "priest"[?] for that past sin/crime and even made sure the female stayed to pay for the family crime. The old primative story of Adam and Eve was obviously, this 60 min.report a current example, a story, probably of many, of how some men will still take advantage of women. - 16:02:31 on 1 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:--->STEVEN..nasty boy...I could explain the infield fly rule in every language! - 19:22:18 on 1 Dec 97 GMT

Steven:JOETTE<<>> pardon the ingnorance, but what the hell is MENSA? Sounds like a jewish coffee club. - 19:30:34 on 1 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:-->STEVEN..it is a society of logical thinking persons. You have to do an exam to join. - 20:22:02 on 1 Dec 97 GMT

Steven:JOETTE<<>> Is it correct that only 2% of MENSA are atheist. This kinda disputes the logical thinking aspect wouldn't you say. I am not slamming MENSA for I know nothing about it. - 21:45:27 on 1 Dec 97 GMT

Carl:ANY: Is not "logic" like the last bastion of the now many ages past view of an 'order for right thinking' or something such? In its place,i.e, an order of thinking, is the contemporary stuff of psycho-logics etc.? If true, then the mensa thing may now be some romantic throw back? - 21:46:06 on 1 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:--->STEVEN/CARL...I for one have never been asked if I am an atheist, and I don't know anyone any Mensans that believe in a god, therefore I have no knowledge of the survey Sam was talking about yesterday. Is it so terrible to have a genius IQ??????????????????? Speaking for myself, anyone can be a Mensan, provided they can do the test accurately. It's no big whoop, and most people take the test for a lark. In fact, any old reader's digest found in any doctor's or dentist's office usually has some part of a Mensa test in it, and if you have time to study them, there is nothing to it. It is not an ego thing, it is a mere exercise, and being a member gets you into lots of doors because it looks good on a resume. Enough said. - 22:22:17 on 1 Dec 97 GMT

jaywilson:CARL: In that any mode of evaluation is subjective--if not downright arbitrary--in practice, I agree with your opinion; while I have nothing against MENSA, it does seem to me a sort of Playboy Club for folks with similarly developed thought patterns (logic, if you will). Hey, the brain is just another organ, as Hef would probably say. - 22:41:28 on 1 Dec 97 GMT

PapaSam:All. Well, I seem to have opened a hornet's nest with my statement about joining Mensa being an ego trip. Mensa is an organization composed of people who have scored in the top two percent of certain tests There are various test scores accepted by the organization. They do have a web site - American Mensa Ltd. You can get more information there. I was accepted based on my score on tests taken in the military. Mensa has facilities where they will administer the their test, for which they charge. I applied out of curiousity and was sent a letter of acceptance with a questionnaire asking for personal data and included was one concerning religious preference. This prompted my inquiry as to the percentage of atheists, and was told that four percent were atheists and six percent refused to answer. JOETTE. I speak only for myself when I state that joining Mensa was an ego trip. I do enjoy being a member of an "elitist" group. So, apparently do you. I also consider all atheists members of an "elitist" group. As Marlene says, there is a unique quality a person must have to be an atheist. Somehow I get the impression that an atheist would be less likely to become a victim of some con-artist's scam. CARL. Women have always been second class citizens in almost all the religions of the world. However, the power of societal conditioning is so great that they almost all accept it. It is not just a religious belief, it has become ingrained in the culture. Also, the greater the population pressures, the lower their value. The Hindu practice of suttee was supposedly voluntary on the part of the widow. In some cases it may have been true I have no doubt that a much greater number were probably drugged or had no way of escaping. The rivers of China were the dumping grounds for untold numbers of newborn female children. Even today in so called atheist China with its policy of one child per couple the ones who become parents of a girl feel cheated. I feel that atheism and the belief in equality for women go hand in hand. - 1:57:52 on 2 Dec 97 GMT

Adam VARIOUS:PapaSam & Marlene: Seuss is for children only on the surface. If you read deep into this apparently simple verse, you will find the message of Seuss. The text actually predicts much of what already has come to pass, including Seuss-driven evolution and the rise of Mensa-Mensa. What happened to the heathens at the parade at the hands of a so-called "wind-blown" (we know better, don't we) "balloon" of the Cat in the Hat is the first of many demonstrations of His Wrath....To Joette: the cops indeed attacked Barney and several other balloons with knives, not understanding that Seuss would not send a signal of warning through mere cartoon balloons, but rather only through The Cat. As for Horton, I have only recently stumbled upon my revelation of Green Eggs & Ham as divine guidance; I intend to find the messages undoubtedly laced throughout other Suessean texts. My guess is that Horton has many a lesson for the Nonbelieving masses. Q: What happens to lawyers when they die? A: They lie still. Hey Jo, who's your favorite U.S. President? I'll guess Benjamin Pierce. Am I close? - 3:09:50 on 2 Dec 97 GMT

Adam RINKY DINK, or PUT IT ON ICE:Jo (Pocket Rocket) Ette: The rule against offside is designed to prevent "goal-hanging." Offside is when a member of the team with the puck crosses the blue line (i.e. into the zone containing the other team's goal) before the puck does so. When a team comes down ice with the puck, players cannot "hang out" down by the goal waiting for a pass. Rather, the rules require the man with the puck to enter the scoring zone first. The rule against "icing"---dumping the puck from one's own defensive zone all the way across the rink to the other end without actually shooting at the goal or passing it to someone---is designed to prevent endless stoppages of play. Thus, if a player on a team "in trouble" in its own end decides to smack the puck all the way down ice without passing or skating it out of his own end (thereby causing a big delay with no action, as the puck glides away from all the players), the refs bring the puck back for a face-off in the end from which it was iced. Icing and offside are actually "violations" rather than "penalties"---they merely lead to face-offs a a spot disadvantageous to the violating team. Penalties cause men to be removed from the ice for awhile (or permanently). - 3:24:07 on 2 Dec 97 GMT

Adam NOT TO BE OUTBARDED (is that a boat motor) by Papa-oom-mow-mow-Sam--->:I have the complete works of Shakespeare on my desk here at work. I feel that his comedies are underrated in favor of the tragedies and histories. And I sign off with a ny-tol from "Merchant"...."There is some ill a-brewing toward my rest. For I did dream of money-bags to-night." zzzzzz----> |o) - 3:33:45 on 2 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:ADAM- "The will, the will, we will hear Corny's will!" LIABILITIES: 44:06..Let no man sinketh to the depth of the sissy Seuss and eateth eggs which haveth green hue for if a man or woman should doeth this it may be the last thing they doeth!" - 4:44:37 on 2 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:PAPASAM- A friend of mine sent me an article tonight on the latest craze : In Japan, forget about "What's your sign?", blood type is commonly believed >to be the best indicator of two individual's compatibility in dating. Whether >a person is type A, B, or O is thought to determine a person's character. > > "It's a modern superstition," Hiroyashi Ishikawa, a professor of social >psychology at Seijo University told the Associated Press. "But it's also a >powerful social lubricator. Talking about blood type is the easiest way to >establish contact with a stranger." > > Type A blood types are believed to be generally uptight, attentive to details >and possess a desire to please others. Type B's are thought to be loud, >assertive and pushy. Type AB's by nature are a collection of contradictions, >while type O's are ambitious, motivated and controlling. > > Science has failed to verify a connection between blood type and personality, >but the superstition remains widespread in Japan. Some companies even screen >potential employees, believing that workers of certain blood types are more >likely to get along. > > The superstition can be traced back to the militaristic Japan of the 1930's >when Japanese army officials conducted studies on blood type and personality >in order to breed and cull for better soldiers. > > ***************************************************************************** >** Since I'm a Type B, my comment on the so-called Mensa Majors will be right in line with the BTS (blood type bullshit). I find people who believe in something that isn't there to be mentally deficient. - 4:53:32 on 2 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene..on employment opportunities:Hummm...I supposed I'd be unemployed there as well...unless I could get a job as a concubine specializing in S&M. Maybe Richard and Quake could be my first victims ..oops! customers?? - 4:57:50 on 2 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:All, DO YOU THINK I'M LOUD?? How do the rest of you own up to the BTS? - 5:00:17 on 2 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene..RE-a-LEE disappointed in Gardner!:PAPASAM- I just got my new Skeptical Inquirer today so I'll be retiring shortly to read the "news and comments" first. I mentioned this to Grant a while back but I don't know if you were here at the time, anyway, did you read that last article in Skeptic in which Martin Gardner was interviewed. I say the guy deserves and big bang on the head for his stupid belief. He feels-za, that his belief in god is very different from the belief ..say in..reincarnation. He feels that reincarnation can be debunked. WELL, IMO so can his god! - 5:07:33 on 2 Dec 97 GMT

Baal:greetings from Atheists in Utah . - 5:09:26 on 2 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- Now that's not very Canukian of you! Hockey is our national sport (isn't it?)! I think this is the only sport I don't mind watching. Like you say, it's kind of ingrained in we Canuks, even if one is as sports-a-phobic as I am. - 5:11:36 on 2 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene..aka Ishtar:BAAL- Greetings from an atheist of the North! - 5:13:02 on 2 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:STEVEN- NAAAA! You wouldn't want to join the Mensa Majors. You'd have to bring a dictionary to understand them and then after all the mental manouvers had been completed you'd find that their conversation had been very similiar to Quake's or Richard's. - 5:19:13 on 2 Dec 97 GMT

Baal:we Atheists are in the Atheist chat room at http://pages.wbs.net/webchat3.so? come and join us ! - 5:20:49 on 2 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:Well, then, since no one wants to talk to me, GOODNIGHT atheists! - 5:23:31 on 2 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:BAAL- Thanks, anyway but been there, done that and it's time to hit the sack. You come back, now, ya here! - 5:25:29 on 2 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:Now I knows my spellin is bad but ya'd think I'd have knowed how to spell "hear"! - 5:27:20 on 2 Dec 97 GMT

Simon.: My Favorite Quotes "I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." [Stephen Roberts] ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "If Atheism is a religion, then health is a disease!" [Clark Adams] ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "People have suffered and become insane for centuries by the thought of eternal punishment after death. Wouldn't it be better to depend on blind matter (...) than by a god who puts out traps for people, invites them to sin, and allows them to sin and commit crimes he could prevent. Only to finally get the barbarian pleasure to punish them in an excessive way, of no use for himself, without them changing their ways and without their example preventing others from committing crimes." [Baron d'Holbach (Systeme de la Nature, 1789)] ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. [Unknown] ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "If god doesn't like the way I live, Let him tell me, not you." [As seen on a button] ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Marge, have you ever actually sat down and read this thing? Technically, we're not even allowed to go to the bathroom." [Priest on "The Simpson's"] ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "I can hardly see how anyone ought to wish Christianity to be true; for if so the plain language of the text seems to show that the men who do not believe, and this would include my Father, Brother and almost all my best friends, will be everlastingly punished. And this is a damnable doctrine." [Charles Darwin] ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "If people are good only because they fear punishment, and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed." [Albert Einstein] ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "If 50 million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing" [Anatole France] ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Science has proof without any certainty. Creationists have certainty without any proof." [Ashley Montague] ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." [Carl Sagan] ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "We must question the story logic of having an all-knowing all-powerful God, who creates faulty Humans, and then blames them for his own mistakes." [Gene Roddenberry] ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "To believe that consciousness can survive the wreck of the brain is like believing that 70 mph can survive the wreck of the car." [Frank Zindler] ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Any belief worth having must survive doubt. [Unknown] ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Faith is to the human what sand is to the ostrich." [Unknown] ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "For god so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever would believe in him would believe in anything." [Unknown] ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "The mind of the fundamentalist is like the pupil of the eye: the more light you pour on it, the more it will contract". [Unknown] ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "God is a gross answer, an indelicacy against us thinkers -- at bottom merely a gross prohibition for us: you shall not think!" [Nietzsche, Ecce Homo] ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "..but the Bible is such a book of lies and contradictions there is no knowing which part to believe or whether any..." [_The Age of Reason_, Thomas Paine, p. 104] ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "It ain't the parts of the Bible that I can't understand that bother me, it is the parts that I do understand." [Mark Twain] ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "There once was a time when all people believed in God and the church ruled. This time was called the Dark Ages." [Richard Lederer (Anguished English)] ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "If the Bible is mistaken in telling us where we came from, how can we trust it to tell us where we're going?" [Justin Brown] ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike." [Delos B. McKown] ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- It's your god. They're your rules. *You* go to hell. [Unknown] ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- A special thanks to The Secular Web Go Back to Matthew Mason's Homepage - 12:04:22 on 2 Dec 97 GMT

Steven:SIMON<<>>we love quotes here, but we have seen and heard all of these. How bout some quotes from you. - 14:24:44 on 2 Dec 97 GMT

Fudge:Jesus was gay!......... - 15:38:54 on 2 Dec 97 GMT

Dornen:Jesus had a 'thing' for Lazarus, according to Professor Morton Smith, Columbia University, according to the 'secret gospel of Mark.' - 15:50:03 on 2 Dec 97 GMT

Carl:P'SAM: Having read around, I have seen enough written about females that fix me with doubt, on your "all inclusion" view. But, my unfettered opinion was to say that this world has real live examples, still, of situations that caused the writing of that old story of A&E and original sin. As for the misogynistic like point of view, I know of some people very alive today that follow a matriarchal life-line. Does your tether of true right and wrongs tell of these too? - 15:50:28 on 2 Dec 97 GMT

PETER:--To give an example of how deception and chicanery exist in the media, last night I was watching a show hosted by Patrick Macnee ( from the "Avengers") and as he introduced anpther segment of this show, he off-handedly said" It has been proven without a doubt that man has been able to communicate telepathically..." Yeah, sure Patrick--It NEVER has. What really bugs me is that the uninitiated, the unassuming( more often than not, young people ), will just take his word for it--unquestioned, and just consider it a given from that point on. And then the networks seem to be so concerned about "offending" the masses--often succumbing to pressure from right-wing funie groups that are terrified of sexual innuendo, and profanities--and then this BULLSHIT is being espoused--with no one even batting an eyelash. I've always said--and I still stand by this: If I had very young children, I would be more concerned, and furious if they had a "National Enquirer" under their mattress than a "Playboy" magazine. - 16:34:44 on 2 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:PETER- Exactly! In fact I'd be worried if they didn't have Playboy under the dresser (this was my kid's hiding place). FUDGE- I think you have something there! From what I've read it really does sound like the mythical jc was gay. - 16:54:25 on 2 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:PETER- Your post reminds me of a very stupid xtian based school rule. When I was fourteen I was threatened with being expelled because I wore a mini skirt yet the boys that were having a fist fight (the ole boys will be boys) were just hand-slapped. Pretty damned illogical if you ask me! - 16:59:08 on 2 Dec 97 GMT

Carl:PETER: Geez! your position could draw applause from some, but I have seen some reports of things and people, none that are immediately available for reference unfortunately, that later on the 'other' newspapers report as valid articles of importance. This of course does not include tales o'bigfoot which may be but their version o'Peanuts, the cartoon. Now, had you said the bible or some other such rot, I'd have appluaded you. have you seen the flick, Men in Black? - 17:00:09 on 2 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:BTW, did anyone relate to their bloodtype-personality type? SIMON- I think the Mark Twain quote is the one I identify with the most! - 17:02:17 on 2 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:CARL- I was reading an article on how much money the US government has spent on the search for bigfoot, YIKES! What a waste! - 17:05:14 on 2 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene..some of the true atheists are children:JOKE--A pastor was giving the children's message during church. For this part of the service, he would gather all the children around him and give a brief lesson before dismissing them for children's church. On this particular Sunday, he was using squirrels for an object lesson on industry and preparation. He started out by saying, "I'm going to describe something, and I want you to raise your hand when you know what it is." The children nodded eagerly. "This thing lives in trees (pause) and eats nuts (pause)..." No hands went up. "And it is grey (pause) and has a long bushy tail (pause)..." The children were looking at each other, but still no hands raised. "And it jumps from branch to branch (pause) and chatters and flips its tail when it's excited (pause)..." Finally one little boy tentatively raised his hand. The pastor breathed a sigh of relief and called on him. "Well...," said the boy, "I *know* the answer is Jesus...but is sure sounds like a squirrel to me!" - 17:09:14 on 2 Dec 97 GMT

Carl:MARLENE: Aside from the bloodtype thing being a mating-game approach, the only other view of it might be that of 'well lets take a look at that'. Afterall, the dark people don't joinup who might result in the increase of the spectral likelyhood of producing offspring with sickel cell problems, do they? - 17:13:10 on 2 Dec 97 GMT

Carl:MARLENE: Bigfoot? direct me to that source you mention above, PETER, i was referring to your Nat'l Enquirer objective, and MARLENE again, this gov't does strange things. - 17:26:05 on 2 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene..just MO but hey, I can't help it, it's my bloodtype!:CARL- Is that sickle cell disease thing a bloodtype thing or a genetic thing? The idea of bloodtypes and personalities is just another outrageous anti-scientific idea. Next it will be the hidden morse code messages in the genetic makeup or something as ridiculously similiar! - 17:28:23 on 2 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:CARL- I'm not even sure where I've read it or maybe I even watched it on TV, I can't recall right now but it was a large amount of money and I think the area of search was in Oregon or Washington. Don't worry though because that project has now been closed. Your money is likely now being spent on that bloodtyping thing, we couldn't let Japan get ahead of us now, ha ha! - 17:32:27 on 2 Dec 97 GMT

Carl:MARLENE: One of my dark colleagues says it is a genetic related problem, so I clearly don't know about that stuff. Is this your point about the Japanese? - 18:13:46 on 2 Dec 97 GMT

Steven:MARLENE<<>>do you still have the mini skirt? - 18:24:01 on 2 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:STEVEN- Actually I do but I weigh about 20 pounds more than I did then so I doubt if I could squeeze into it now. Too many bon bons methinks, 33 years worth! CARL- Naaa! My point is anti-science. - 18:35:58 on 2 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:SO! Has everyone got their mythmas shopping started? - 18:39:49 on 2 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- I've noticed Quake hasn't been posting, did you call the Guelph wagon to pick him up? And even better, Richard hasn't been posting either! Maybe he's been picked up by the Kanga wagon, a just reward for his stupidity! - 18:42:45 on 2 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene..where is he when you need him?:Horrible news about the 14 year-old opening fire on a religion class. I wonder where god was at this time? On recess? - 18:45:01 on 2 Dec 97 GMT

Carl:MARLENE: Where did that event happen? In a detached listen, I heard a news story about some purported good-kid that for reasons unknown just started shootin'and killin' but I don't know where it happened but the news anchor said some other youngsters were prayin'nearby and even talked the shooter outta'more shooting. is this the same report? - 18:59:35 on 2 Dec 97 GMT

Steven:MARLENE<<>> what is this about a fire? - 19:05:14 on 2 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene..it's what I do understand that scares me:CARL and STEVEN- I understand this happened in Kentucky. It has been reported that the leader of the prayer group (student or adult, I don't know) talked him into putting down the gun. He did. It had one bullet left in it. The purpose of my post was this. We can see how god intervened in this situation. He answered the leader's prayer by causing the boy to put the gun down. The lord saved his life as the last bullet would have likely been for the leader. My question is, where was god for the other three victims the boy killed? - 19:16:34 on 2 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:CARL- A little more I've heard on the srory. The boy fired on the prayer group. The group was his target. Was it bloodtype or the devil? Neither as far as I'm concerned but hey, I'm just a non-mensa type atheist. - 19:20:41 on 2 Dec 97 GMT

Carl:MARLENE: liked the term "mythmas shopping" you must be an honary mensatype. When I heard the newsman tell this tale I was waiting for him to add that the devil had told the shooter to do it. I still find it strange that kids like this Kentucky shooter or that Mississippi killer tell of talkin'devils, while guys like clinton possibly killin people to get at whatis'name clinton will tell of some talkin'god or its messenger. Not that this has happened or even will, the difference here we have already inscribed of several days back. As for the two mystics, the quack if he stayed on I was gonna check out Augustine who was windy as heck when it came to writing about a god. Richard, I thought he was just a beginner type mystic. - 19:43:31 on 2 Dec 97 GMT

Steven:MARLENE<<>> speaking of MENSA has anyone heard from JOETTE all day? As far as the prayer group in Kentucky who cares. No loss of sleep here. - 19:44:09 on 2 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:Joette must be still counting beans. I would imagine this time of year is very busy for her. Maybe this will work "Speak of Joette and she will come!". CARL- I haven't really heard if this boy had a motive or not. Have you? Although it is not an excuse for violence, maybe the kid tired of hearing about jesus. I know I can't stand it! - 19:51:32 on 2 Dec 97 GMT

Steven:MARLENE<<>> he should have brought one bullet, spent it on the leader, and then asked if their god could bring him back to life. - 20:05:58 on 2 Dec 97 GMT

Carl:STEVEN: Now we both that the good book says we ain't supposed to test the lord almighty, and o'course this includes the spokesman, jc and that list o'god things I regularly refer to. - 20:12:37 on 2 Dec 97 GMT

Steven:CARL<<>> Lets call it a litmus test, or a god test. - 20:22:06 on 2 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:STEVEN- It's a little extreme... but these kids that survived the ordeal should be asking themselves "where was god?". - 20:42:07 on 2 Dec 97 GMT

Adam HAIL TO THE CHEF?:Joette: If no one has corrected me yet (I haven't read back posts), My suggestion as to your favorite President should have been Franklin Pierce, not Benjamin. Must have seen too many episodes of M*A*S*H. - 20:54:36 on 2 Dec 97 GMT

Carl:S.&M.: Enough contrary things happen in the terms chosen and defined by the mystics, that by now, their words in any kind of collection "they" ought to toss the damn collection into any fire and forget the stuff. Then, if they still gotta fix to the good things that happen to themselves to something godlike, in time that too would go, next. They waste so much time prayin and tryin to get or stay right with a god that they become robbers and thieves of the wealth produced by the rest of humanity. Heck, let them shoot each other, that just makes for one less leach, thief and robber of the wealth of humanity. - 21:00:41 on 2 Dec 97 GMT

Adam DE MINIMIS:What? no response to my favorite lawyer joke? What gives? Tough room. - 21:03:35 on 2 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:ADAM- I thought it was a good one. Corny forgives you! Isn't that compassionate! - 21:21:43 on 2 Dec 97 GMT

Carl:ADAM: that one of that they lie still? It drew some titters from the several I shared it. - 21:31:53 on 2 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:-->ADAM..sorry, heard that one before...and as far as my favourite president goes, I haven't given it much thought as your leaders are of little consequence to me. However, William Lyon MacKenzie King was by far my favourite prime minister. - 22:43:57 on 2 Dec 97 GMT

Carl:ANY: Had an interesting comment directed at my interests of nonmysticism. A colleague said something along the lines of,'Oh, one of these days you'll come around.' which in the ensuing dialogue it meant that theism would come to me. I thought, how strange a person must be that wants everyone to think or do as they themselves may exist. How strange are they that they must attach themselves to something that for them "knows" everything. Is that actually their thing of concern? Or is it instead that they- mystics, just don't want to be troubled by to much else or anyone too different. On this later point I can imagine/empathise some because I don't go out of my way for the mentally deficient or gays or others not as me, like it used to be for me as theists/mystics once were. Hmmm? - 23:52:56 on 2 Dec 97 GMT

PapaSam:ALL. Please excuse my absence (as if you missed me!) I went to a wake yesterday for a woman in her forties. God wanted her very badly so he riddled her body with cancer for a few months. She was a good woman, a good mother. I remember holding her as a baby. Personally I would have liked to keep her around a while longer, but hey, god has first dibs, right? After all, he has free will too. - 2:00:40 on 3 Dec 97 GMT

PapaSam:ALL. I have hired unvestigators to find out what happened to Richard and Quake. Here is the latest. Quake, in a state of despondency because of our resistance to his preachings, tried to blow his brains out. He then discovered he had none and died of shock. Richard changed his name to Ophelia took Hamlet's advice and got himself to a nunnery. My investigators do not know what happened after that because they couldn't get in to find out. Perhaps, in the fullness of his mercy, God will resurrect Quake, and when Richard is through implanting his seeds of knowledge he will return from his missionary work and then the two, in the richness of their wisdom, will once more spread god's word among the heathen. For god works in mysterious ways his wonders to behold. I know because Quake told me so. Now, a mild word of criticism. I don't like to see anyone resorting to vulgarity. Some of you have called Quake and Richard "assholes". You must remember that assholes are very useful orifices. They are used for the purpose of defecation and to channel farts. But Quake and Eichard are unique. Instead of ordinary feces they blast out bullshit. Again, please excuse my vulgar speech. - 2:28:21 on 3 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:-->SAM..whether you object to vulgarity or not is of no consequence. Anyone here can express themselves any way they see fit. We have enough censorship to deal with in our lives, and this is one place where it is not politically correct. - 2:38:44 on 3 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene..:PAPASAM- Those investigators of yours are regular Della Ventura's! Maybe after Richard's stay in the nunnery he'll maybe appreciate women a bit more. His cursing his ex will leave a sour taste in the sister's mouths. Of course they know just what to do with unruly men, they have an assortment of rubber hoses, crowns of thorns, wicked yard sticks and lots of chores. I hope he enjoys his stay. Of course if he becomes ill ad in pain, like their mentor, mother T, they will sooth him with the fact that the pain is really the kisses of jesus. Now for Quake, why does his demise not surprize me? I think we all knew he was in for quite the fall since his house had no foundation. I wonder if he's having tea with Mother T and Stan? Mother T is stuck in hell BTW as Gabby (the out of the closet angel)had gone to a parade on Rue Paul, got smashed and ended up with a jesus kissing headache. He was so distracted that he screwed up the paper work and Mother T was sent to hell. Stan is doing his best to have her extradicted becuase he's just sick of hearing about jesus. Poor Stan, now he has Quake to contend with. - 5:41:42 on 3 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:PAPASAM- I'm sorry to hear about your friend. Nothing pisses me more than some idiot telling me that someone's suffering and pain is the will of a mythical creature. I can't fathom how this comforts some people...most people. - 5:45:21 on 3 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene..missing U:RON- Okay, now I'm worried! I haven't heard from you in a while. This, of course, could mean your like one of my kids. If things are going great then I don't hear from them. Hope things are going great! - 5:48:27 on 3 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene. My favorite emetics include the following. "God only lent him/her for a little while. You should be grateful you had him/her for three (you put in the number) years." "He/she has gone to a better place." "Don't worry. God will provide." "We,ll all pray for you." Andd of course, "God must have wanted her very much." I think the entire concept of religion can be expressed by a quote from Macbeth "-- it is a tale told by an idiot,full of sound and fury, and signifying nothing." - 7:36:23 on 3 Dec 97 GMT

Grant:MARLENE-- Speaking of emetics, (was that last post Peter's?) have you been shopping lately. There are angels everywhere. What's with that, background radiation finally taking it's toll? R & Q are probably gasping for breath after their near-miss with rational thought. The nunnery stuff and "Jesus kissing headache" are funny. - 13:26:29 on 3 Dec 97 GMT

Grant:MARLENE-- Maybe the mystery post was PapaSam? (This is fun- simple pleasures for non-mensa minds.) - 14:21:29 on 3 Dec 97 GMT

Steven:ANY<<>> Did anyone watch the Billy Graham special last night. It made me so sick to my stomach i had to shut it off and lay down for about an hour. How anyone can air that crap is beyond me. - 15:18:16 on 3 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:--->et tu, GRANT? - 15:36:22 on 3 Dec 97 GMT

Carl:STEVEN: He was here several weeks ago. I thought about going when it was advertized as free admission. Hordes of people doing the same thing or wanting to do the same things always interests me. Kinda like a musical concert or whatever. Then too, I saw "free" and that gave me reason to ponder how that ole boy planned on gettin'his spendin'cash. When I listen in on his views it amazes me that people think- be this action along any line or method of thought processing, and that these people afterwards can accept within their brains what he speaks about, that it is about anything. What does he tell about that except a few, as the mentally deficient, don't like or even would like to have, even tho'these things are imaginary. He is a living Barnum type, that is for sure. - 15:49:36 on 3 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:GRANT- The nunnery thing was Papasam's. I thought his investigation on what happened to Quake and Richard was hilarious. You know I was going to mention the same thing. This year angels are everywhere in the stores. It did start to be a fad about two years ago with glass and brass "guardian angels" but now it's just any ole angel. Haven't seen any cross-dressing one's like Gabby yet. Maybe this could be our mythmas discussion! We'll report what we see while shopping. - 15:50:50 on 3 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:STEVEN- Nope, didn't see ole Billy. I have a sat. dish and I once in awhile put it on G5-4 and listen to the bull on it but I really can't stand too much of it. What did Billy have to say this time? - 15:53:59 on 3 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:CARL- Years ago I got sucked into attending one of these religious gatherings as a friend had to go and we went with her so she didn't have to be there with only her foster parents, and besides, like you say, it was free. After much yelling and stomping and barking "jesus", the speaker became very quite. He then asked people to come up to the front to be saved. This was the "money maker". As people were saved they dropped money in a barrel as "donations". My poor friend was forced to go to the front with her foster parents and one of my friends also became "caught up" in the emotional blackmail and started to get up out of her seat to also go up front. Another friend who was sitting beside her, grabbed her by the shirt as sat her back down. It's quite the emotional circus! - 16:01:28 on 3 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:PAPASAM- I assume it was you on the "emetics". I am very much against private education being funded with my tax dollar. I went to a meeting a few years ago during which the xtian private school principal was defending his position on private schools. One of my questions to him was "what did they do at this school to prepare the student for the job market". (We have over 10% unemployment in some areas of Canada so the student has to be quite competative). His answer was "God will provide". When I asked "how" and "to date that he hasn't done a very good job", I got frowned at and the discussion branched off in different areas, one of which was the "importance of prayer in school". - 16:11:41 on 3 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene..lowly average but greatly respectful:On the Mensa subject...I may have joked about the Mensa members high "%" of believers but I have to admit that it takes a very intelligent person to gain admission. While some people collect pictures and admire movie stars etc., I have always admired these great thinkers. For instance, the one and only picture of someone (other than my family) that I have on my wall is Albert Einstein(sp). In music, I admire those who really have something to say like, John Lennon. In fictional literature I admire someone who's truly imaginative like Jules Verne or Stephen King. I would imagine each would have gained admission. - 16:32:18 on 3 Dec 97 GMT

Carl:MARLENE: The more I see of these "few" mystics that want prayer, etc.c, it seems more and more that it is an action taken up by a very few. I almost can not get these types here to speak on behalf of even a god, let alone the nonsense of jc which they don't accept, and so, when I note who speaks for such stuff, it is just a few and of course, in the dynamics of todays world it is nearly impossible for them- mystic preacher types, to speak to a captive audience, as they once were able to do in the dark ages. That was one of the points that Q & R seemed unable to grasp while they were here. Prayer in school, another question they- mystics, can not respond to is which of god's spokemen do we follow and what/who's are the right words? These people are by their own terms confused. - 16:58:30 on 3 Dec 97 GMT

Matthew Arnold...from "A Wish" 1897:Nameless one...."spare me the whispering, crowded room....the friends who come and gape and go.....the ceremonious air of gloom-...all, which makes death a hideous show." - 17:09:56 on 3 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:CARL- Unfortunately some are still in the dark ages. I would hold that instead of less attending these functions, more are. As greater populations bring with them more incidence of crime, diverse beliefs and the struggle to compete for resources, many people's refuge is god. I truly think there are more believers (more fundamental believers) today than say 20 years ago. Scary! - 17:15:06 on 3 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:MATT- The very reason, when I die, I've made the wish of no service whatsoever! - 17:18:14 on 3 Dec 97 GMT

Zarathustra:This is my first look at this site. What the heck is going on? Imagine, if you will, a bored atheist surfer landing on this site. It is enticing and confusing all at once. There may be something very juicy here but I just can't tell for sure. Habla en English por favor. - 18:54:02 on 3 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene..do I sound bitchy, it must be the bloodtype:JOETTE- This is one of the many reasons I love this page. Politically correct is not a must. Gladly I'll never make the politically correct club. Nothing irks me more than some of the cliches too like "in a nutshell" or "grass roots". - 18:57:43 on 3 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:ZARAwhatever..do you mean??? - 18:59:53 on 3 Dec 97 GMT

Steven:Zarathustra: uhhhh, hello fellow atheist. - 19:06:49 on 3 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:-->ZARATHUSTRA..we speak English here, so da nada. - 19:39:33 on 3 Dec 97 GMT

Peter:PETER--Also Sprach Zarathustra--It can be intersesting at times here...just check in once in a while and see if the conversation interests you. - 19:44:42 on 3 Dec 97 GMT

Rob:Zara: Nietzche to meet you. Trust me, there's meat on this bone... They're all Super men (and women) here. ALL: Good to see you got over that Post Mensal Tension. Only (I don't give a fuck) shopping days to christmas, but more importantly: only 3 days 'till I go home for the vacation- and no MIMM for a month! If I had your addresses I would be sending Anti-Christmas cards to you all (Esp. Dickie and Quackers). Guess you'll have to make do with an anti-smiley ={:-o> - 19:50:13 on 3 Dec 97 GMT

Carl:MARLENE: Fundamental mystics and more mystics genrally, both views may be on target just because there are more people alive and living to older ages and also, the level of education is down. The last point is the terrible point that does lend itself to a rebirth of the dark age elements. R & Q are both frightening examples of those elements coming alive, reactivating! But, on the flip side there is the wealth of humanity of which this neat little gadget represents- PC, so that the PC's communicative potentials surely can be utilised to combat their- the mystics, comfortable ignorance. That I am quite sure is another topic and it concerns who is in control and wants things to stay that way. - 20:01:38 on 3 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:CARL- Your right, thanks to pc's more communication may mean more logical thinking, I hope... - 20:05:52 on 3 Dec 97 GMT

Rob:ALL: Apologies for that smelling pistake- which of course should read "Nietzsche". "What could I have to give to you? But let me go quickly lest I take something from you!" - 20:06:13 on 3 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:ROB- Baaa-humbug...Merry Mythmas anyway! If I had your e-mail address I'd send you a mythmas card too. Have a good holiday! - 20:08:08 on 3 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:ROB- You better be sorry, I neber make smelling nistakes! - 20:09:56 on 3 Dec 97 GMT

Rob:Marls: Just for future reference, robert.knowles@university-college.ox.ac.uk - 20:11:58 on 3 Dec 97 GMT

Rob:MARLENE: And what exactly is a Baaa-humbug? Are they those sweets sheep suck on long car journeys to stop them feelng sick? - 20:15:24 on 3 Dec 97 GMT

Steven:ROB<<>> in the Empire of the US of stinking A the christians are doing everything in their power to censor, sex, language and violence on the internet. These people not only need to be shot, they should not be allowed to succeed in their endeavors. The same people are also right to life jerk offs. These are the same people who think that anything that they can't control is evil. The same jerks who want our kids to read the fucking bible in school but want Huck Finn burned. Instead of book burning we should be christian burning. Everyone would be allowed a gas mask for the smell, lets round up all the christians, at least those that will not denounce the faith, and burn them. All of them in one ditch. We can incinerate 1000 at a time. It may take a couple of days but well worth the effort. We could even have a cookout useing the christians instead of coal or wood. We could kill all the christians in existence and still not even match a 10th of how many people they have killed. - 20:24:20 on 3 Dec 97 GMT

Steven:ROB<<>> Nero had a good idea also, christian candles. Thought I'd stir up the anthill a little. - 20:27:15 on 3 Dec 97 GMT

X:BIG BROTHER IS WATCHING - 20:28:19 on 3 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:ROB- Now that's cute! Even Ebeneezer(or however in hell you spell it) would like that! - 20:29:54 on 3 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:STEVEN- Holy Mythmas baking! You've given me some ideas! - 20:33:19 on 3 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene..unruly males..sheesh!:X- You mean, BIG SISTER! And don't you forget it motha! - 20:35:27 on 3 Dec 97 GMT

Carl:OPEN: The "X" factor, dare we guess that this is another mystic? That opening line sure sounds famliar. - 20:40:57 on 3 Dec 97 GMT

Rob:STEVEN: I suppose if I were to be self-righteous, I would say something along the lines of "not attributing to evil that which can adequately explained by ignorance." But I'm not, so I say "Baste well, and turn frequently." X: Is Big Brother coming out to play, or is he a theological voyeur? - 21:10:37 on 3 Dec 97 GMT

X:and the two mighty nations, the eagle, the bear shall join forces to overcome the madman of the east. - 21:23:29 on 3 Dec 97 GMT

X:the madman of the east will call his nation magog and will join forces with gog. Gog and Magog will battle with the mighty nations of the eagle and bear and the battle between will cause much nashing of teeth and suffering. - 21:25:05 on 3 Dec 97 GMT

Steven:feed me and i live. Give me drink and I die. What am I? - 21:26:36 on 3 Dec 97 GMT

Carl:ANY: say it isn't so, someone pinch me wake me this is gonna be another bad dream. - 21:29:11 on 3 Dec 97 GMT

Carl:OPEN "X" = B.Clinton? - 21:34:10 on 3 Dec 97 GMT

Steven:and the eagle and bear after casting down the evil madman will play host to the dragon. - 21:40:17 on 3 Dec 97 GMT

Rob:CARL: Can't be- Clinton didn't inhale! - 21:43:19 on 3 Dec 97 GMT

Rob:X: And the moral of the story is... - 21:44:10 on 3 Dec 97 GMT

Steven:X must be another mystic. - 21:52:22 on 3 Dec 97 GMT

Steven:Someone answer the riddle if the can! - 21:54:10 on 3 Dec 97 GMT

Carl:ROB: Oh! I get this is just a cute animal fable, gads but I take you fun lovin'folks here way to serious. - 21:54:15 on 3 Dec 97 GMT

Rob:... garbage in, garbage out. - 22:00:12 on 3 Dec 97 GMT

Rob:... garbage in, garbage out. - 22:00:18 on 3 Dec 97 GMT

Rob:See what I mean! - 22:01:18 on 3 Dec 97 GMT

Steven:Ok one more time: here is the Riddle: feed me and i live. Give me drink and I die. What am I - 22:02:47 on 3 Dec 97 GMT

X:Rob, your momma - 22:03:26 on 3 Dec 97 GMT

Carl:ANY: Ahaa! a psychological indicator, "X" is either youngish- as mom is still important, or he means to attempt to rekindle the fires of the dark age elements- due to his/her preferred ignorance. Lets see whats next. - 22:10:22 on 3 Dec 97 GMT

Rob:X: Touched a raw nerve? Well would you care to enlighten us then as to the moral of your story... - 22:26:27 on 3 Dec 97 GMT

Rob:X: Touched a raw nerve? Well would you care to enlighten us then as to the moral of your story... - 22:26:53 on 3 Dec 97 GMT

Rob:Oooh I hate dat wabbit! I am gonna hit this darn computer in a minute - 22:27:57 on 3 Dec 97 GMT

Rob:STEVEN: Your Kidneys? - 22:29:42 on 3 Dec 97 GMT

Carl:STEVEN; An alcoholic? - 22:45:50 on 3 Dec 97 GMT

jaywilson:STEVEN: Fire? - 22:47:50 on 3 Dec 97 GMT

jaywilson:STEVEN: A newborn baby? - 22:50:29 on 3 Dec 97 GMT

jaywilson:STEVEN: A fish? - 22:51:40 on 3 Dec 97 GMT

jaywilson:STEVEN: A newborn baby fish on fire? - 22:52:27 on 3 Dec 97 GMT

Rob:STEVEN: Thirst? - 22:58:51 on 3 Dec 97 GMT

jaywilson:ROB: Thecond! - 23:09:33 on 3 Dec 97 GMT

jaywilson:X: But the mighty nation of the eagle shall have orthodontists who there abide, and they shall bring comfort to those who nash [sic, sic, sic] their teeth. - 23:19:10 on 3 Dec 97 GMT

jaywilson:STEVEN: ...and dragon milk shall come from cows with short legs. - 23:23:15 on 3 Dec 97 GMT

Rob:jaywilson: Surely that's bull? And what about the elderly- will they be nashing their dentures??? - 23:44:02 on 3 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:-->ROB..how long will we be listening to the two of you milking this one? And would that be Crosby, Stills and Nash? - 23:47:22 on 3 Dec 97 GMT

Rob:Joette: -'Till the cows come home. Sorry- do you think Mary would be eligible for dairyfication, given that all these stautes of her are weeping milk around the world? - 23:52:24 on 3 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene and Corny says:MEDICATIONS: 24;16 And the milk thereof will be laced with thorazine, the same thorazine whicheth causes the dragon to become tamed. Yea! For he who seeth the dragon shall be commitethed to everlasting therapy. Yea, for believe in the thorazine for only it will tame the dragon. - 23:53:05 on 3 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:-->ROB..I thought it was the Hindu gods that were weeping milk. I think Mary only weeps tears which may come from water pipes that always seem to be conveniently placed in the wall behind the her figurine. Of course, a leaking pipe could be considered a miracle too. I read in the paper yesterday that there is an oil stain in the subway of Mexico City that looks like Mary, and people are flocking to see it (or should I say, herding, since the bovine are the discussion du jour?) - 0:02:54 on 4 Dec 97 GMT

Rob:Yes the Hindu ones do it too, but I saw once a claim regarding Mary. Now I don't suppose that stain in the subway is Extra Virgin Olive Oil? - 0:09:48 on 4 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:-->ROB..sorry, we did Popeye the other day! - 0:15:22 on 4 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:-->TO ANY...aleady I am hearing complaints about "how commercial" xmas is, and how we have to "put christ back in christmas". Now, has anyone ever had one of these bleeding hearts turn down one of your "commercial" presents? - 0:17:24 on 4 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- I've never heard the one about the milk leaking virgin. Incredible! I love the commericalism in mythmas! Without the lights, presents, trees, mythmas parties, food and shopping, it wouldn't be fun at all! Jee-zus is such a bummer, he spoils mythmas. - 0:25:59 on 4 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:STEVEN- What IS the answer to the riddle? - 0:26:48 on 4 Dec 97 GMT

Rob:JOETTE: Well the emphasis was on the "Virgin"- Anyway, sod the christ in christmas- I shall be putting the boxing back into boxing day, as I will be out training that morning. As for the bleeding hearts, how about the quotes "Jesus is the reason for the season" (To which I etched underneath... no, the tilt of the earth's rotational axis is"), and "Wise men still seek him" (Underneath I wrote "But foolish men have found him") - 0:30:38 on 4 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:-->ROB..as brilliant as the Carol Services rebuke! LOL! - 0:36:01 on 4 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:-->MARLENE..I think the "commercialism" is the best part too! (and I think the answer to Steven's riddle is "fire" just as jaywilson suggested). - 0:38:28 on 4 Dec 97 GMT

PapaSam:X. I seem to remember the Gog and Magog crap before. I believe it comes from some esoteric book of revelations. You better tell your bear and your eagle to watch out or they will find themselves with a pink unicorn horn up their backsides. Are you a spy for jc? I agree with jay on his answer to Steven's riddle. Fire it is. ALL. Going to a revival meeting is an indication of a subconscious masochism. As for Billy Graham. confidante of presidents and god, well, let's face it. It takes talent to get people to fall over themselves to give you money. It takes talent to be a con man in any field, he just specializes in religion. It doesn't matter if they skip a meal or two to send him their grocery money. After all, they're going to sit with god and eat at the "table de hote".Marlene. Th emetic post was mine. Glad you recognized my style, such as it is. Steven. Don't let your impatience with the god- lovers turn into rage. Witch burning is a Christian practice. It is unseemly for us to use the barbarism practiced by those of the holy faith. Besides, they might sue us for plagiarizing their methods. I don't remember the source, but some wit once said "I hate fanatics with a passion. I'd like to kill them all." From a more practical point of view if all the brethren were to disappear overnight we'd all starve to death. - 0:39:33 on 4 Dec 97 GMT

Rob:Joette: Yes- I think the Carol Services one did take some beating. The problem with having fire as the answer to the riddle is that you can have liquid fires, so I think the answer should be ammended to thirst. N'est-ce pas? - 0:41:19 on 4 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:-->ROB..well, wasn't that a question on the Mensa test? (smirk) - 0:47:59 on 4 Dec 97 GMT

James-->Atheist...:You folks would not respect me if I didn't take the opportunity to mention the terrible tragedy in the news right now. How much it reminds me of all the terrible Christian idiots whom bomb abortion clinics and how their religion as a whole and all that believes in it are responsible for the acts. At least this is the jest of what I recall to be the same words used against me to convict the beliefs of Christianity and common moral values I share with it. The incident that I am referring to is the young man of known and professed atheist beliefs who shot down in cold blood a youth prayer group; a horrifying and very sad situation born of ignorance and completely unnecessary. Anyway, I guess I am just happy that I know that all atheists are not that way toward Christians. I have come to know most of the folks on this page to be kind people and I hope some have you have come to know me in a similar light despite our, shall we say, disagreement on the unknown. Sadly, one of my inherent flaws is the wish to be able to rub this incident in old Richard's face. Best wished to all, talk soon.....Later - 0:49:39 on 4 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:JAMES-ZAA- Hope you return! I'd like to discuss this incident with you a little further. Right now I have to watch Charlie Browns's Mythmas. Part of the mythmus routine, ya know! - 1:12:30 on 4 Dec 97 GMT

James, The first report it seems was wrong, and actually the young man was a Lutheran. His pastor said on the news tonight that he was not an atheist but a christian that had sinned. - 1:15:40 on 4 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:-->JAMES..no posting and running! Do you truly believe that a 14 year old child would be educated enough about life, science etc., to declare himself an atheist? I don't think so. This is the first time I have heard this slant on the story. Are you sure he didn't declare himself a satanist? There is a big difference between the two, although most xtians don't see it that way. Glad that you dropped in. - 1:15:42 on 4 Dec 97 GMT

James-->Atheist...:I forgot to mention that the parents of one of the shot down Christain youths donated their daughters lungs to save another life. That should really upset Richard's apple cart. - 1:17:43 on 4 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:-->speaking of Richard, and inspired by Skeptic's Dumbth awards, I was thinking that we should all try to think back over the year and bestow one of Adam's plastic Jesus statuettes as an award on this page. What could we call it? The ASSthiest Award? Nominations please....I vote for Carrie Drake! (is this childish or what???) - 1:21:31 on 4 Dec 97 GMT

Adam YOU ARE CORNHOLIO!:To Marlene and other followers of Corny the Cult Clown‹I have used some of my built-up credits with the BOMC and QPBC to order more sacred Seussian manuscripts, which I will use to counter all those Christ-y the Cult Clown scripture posters (BMW, what do you think of my new pshychobabble term for "one who compusively regurgitates scripture despite its detrimental effect on the brain"-----a BIBLEMIC! har!), but in the process be prepared to get enlightenment one way or another. And just hope that the Cat doesn't bring down some wrought-iron wrath on the head of Corny himself, just like those New Yorkers got "enlightened" (HAR!!!) at the Macy's parade. - 1:27:27 on 4 Dec 97 GMT

Adam Piercing WIT:Jo, the favorite president thing was veiled humor, not unlike the Nirvana thing. Or did you know that and just hoped I'd drop it? - 1:31:33 on 4 Dec 97 GMT

Adam KICK ASSCH!!!:Gotta go, folks! Wanta be home in plenty of time for the best show on TV----SOUTH PARK----at 22:00 eastern (even tho' it's supposed to be a rerun of the Terrence & Phillip episode). - 1:34:00 on 4 Dec 97 GMT

James--->Atheists...:A little further reading indicates that the guy was in fact baptized Lutheran (mind you at birth), and a year ago confirmed. Sadly we will never know what was truly in his heart. And yes Joette, I do think it's a little silly, about as silly as believing that just because some crazy lunatic who thinks he's going to martyr himself by killing more people represents those who align themselves with the Christian faith. Additionally, you might be surprised at how quickly one can develop a perception of life. Gotta go...Ron's brakes need some attention and he is due any minute. Later. - 1:57:54 on 4 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:-->ADAM..it went right over my head. I must have several holes in it! Is it the Terrance & Phillips one where the parents go to the network, or is it the Thanksgiving one? Adam...I think I'm going to..pphhhhttt - 3:07:20 on 4 Dec 97 GMT

Steven:MARLENE<<>> PAPA and jaywilson were right. The answer is fire. - 4:14:29 on 4 Dec 97 GMT

Steven:MARLENE<<>> PAPA and jaywilson were right. The answer is fire. - 4:14:33 on 4 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:ADAM- Very GOOD, even Corny thinks it's food for thought but he just can't get into green eggs. - 4:17:45 on 4 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene..:STEVEN- Have you been watching TV tonight? Dateline had two christian rock singers on, Suzie or Sally something and Amy Grant. One of the bands were called "clay jars". Sheesh! I have a good name, how about Jee-zus Junkies? - 4:21:13 on 4 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- James was mentioning Richard. It's not the jesus freak Richard but the atheist Richard who use to post here until some no-minds used some vulgar personal attacks on him. - 4:23:32 on 4 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene...:JAMES-ZA- In reading the page you referred us to, it says there that this kid was NOT, N-O-T, atheist! Do you just read headlines? Has the kid claimed he's atheist, I don't think so... - 4:26:14 on 4 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:-->MARLENE..sorry about that. I thought it strange that James would be castigating one of his own brotherhood, but I thought that maybe the new Richards was even a little too mad for him. Now, if I had made that connection, maybe I wouldn't have been so nice to James. Never really have been before...so, what do you think of Robert Latimer's sentence? - 4:56:44 on 4 Dec 97 GMT

PapaSam:ALL. The christians believe in a god who created the universe with its billions of galaxies down to the smallest particle of subatomic matter. They believe this god has created all life from the greatest of Dinosaurs to the smallest micro- scopic organism. Presumably their god could make the universe disappear in an instant if he so desired. He could also make all life disappear if he cared to. If I were god I would be highly pissed off at their arrogance in claiming to talk for me as though I were a being of limited intelligence. I would give them the pink unicorn treatment. By this oblique reasoning suitable for a christian we can prove that there is no god - not even a christian one, because I haven't seen anyone with a unicorn's horn up his/her ass. By the way, I read somewhere that Voltaire was offered the opportunity to be a cardinal in the catholic church if he would stop his attacks on that institution. I don't know whether it's true or not but it gives me food for thought. -- I wonder how I'd look in a red skirt ---. - 6:00:56 on 4 Dec 97 GMT

Steven:PAPA<<>> I have a friend who bought me all of Voltaires 'Candide and other writings'. I have started to read them and they are quit good. My question to you is this: What was Voltaires religous beliefs. I have heard that he was a christian, but then I hear from christians that he was atheist. Could you enlighten me on the truth please. - 14:04:41 on 4 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- I'm sorry, last night I meant to post that your ASSeth Award should most definately be granted to CDrake. I wonder if she's been successful in gathering a herd of atheists? Now for the Latimer thing...the more I think about that case the more I've changed my mind on it. If he truly did this to erase his daughter's pain then I'd say I'd be happy with the sentence BUT there are many people who say she was not in pain nor as uncomfortable as his defense would have us believe. Then I would say he did this to rid himself of pain so the sentence wasn't near harsh enough. In this instance, I wish that I'd known the family personally then I'd have peace of mind on what I think. - 14:56:24 on 4 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:STEVEN and PAPASAM- Was Voltaire's attacks only on the rc church or on all religions? Was his attack on god? - 14:59:44 on 4 Dec 97 GMT

Steven:ALL/ANY: Ok so the first one was easy. I hope you haven't read the book I am pulling these from. Here goes: What is the difference between a cat and a complex sentence? - 15:21:14 on 4 Dec 97 GMT

Carl:OPEN: Watching those people involved with Kentucky shooting, what amuses me is that they can take this thing in stride, as when they flash their compasionate smiles, which is of course as it really is. Nothing like a good death to cool down the blood. We all do this, but when those folks try to spin the tale into a god or jc thing, or the whatever, then that action ought to be known only and simply for what it is, they are back at into the con. About the only problem those mystics face is the number killed and damaged, on behalf of the total 8 how are they gonna ask for money? - 15:34:16 on 4 Dec 97 GMT

Rob:STEVE: I hope they have a better answer to this one than the last -does it involve the use of clause? - 15:54:22 on 4 Dec 97 GMT

Steven:ROB<<>> getting warmer..... - 15:55:32 on 4 Dec 97 GMT

Carl:STEVE: Clause Pause claws paws, i got a kick out of this when i heard it. - 16:13:11 on 4 Dec 97 GMT

Rob:Steve: Does the cat have claws on the paws, whereas the sentence has pause on the clause? - 16:17:29 on 4 Dec 97 GMT

Rob:CARL! Looks like you beat me to it! Can't say as I've heard that one before though. - 16:19:52 on 4 Dec 97 GMT

Carl:P'SAM: Liked your rendition of an all or nothin', it is one I've tossed at the mystics, they usually start back-peddlin'telling me that I just don't understand. Herein I regularly kick at their general confusion, and one the better accounts of their problem was described by A.Korzybsky. Another simple account was said by A.N.Whitehead, the first said 'words' are not the thing and the thing is not the word, Whitehead said in mathematics, that more erroneous thinking occurs because many confuse the event with the object and viceversa. But, while these may appear here, very naked, much more thinking of other relevant matters was involved. You may have even seen some of these books yourself. - 16:35:46 on 4 Dec 97 GMT

Steven:ROB, CARL<<>> yes, yes that is the correct answer. One more for today: What can run but never walks, has a mouth but never talks, has a bed but never sleeps, has a head but never weeps. - 16:45:08 on 4 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:STEVEN- A river??? - 16:48:28 on 4 Dec 97 GMT

Steven:Damn, I thought I could stump someone. I'll have to come up with a better one. - 17:02:16 on 4 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:STEVEN- What does a theist and a leech have in common? - 17:25:16 on 4 Dec 97 GMT

Steven:MARLENE<<>> the both suck! - 18:03:54 on 4 Dec 97 GMT

that should be 'they both suck'. Jeeez - 18:04:39 on 4 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:STEVEN- Right! How can you tell I made that one up? I'll see if I can come up with a better one seeing as mine, suck! - 18:39:43 on 4 Dec 97 GMT

Carl:OPEN: of Voltaire, he seems to have been guilty of doing good things for folks without authority and worse yet he did not acknowledge the appropriate authority of the day. I know of one fellow whose youthful idealism was pointed at the priesthood. The fellow is brilliant taught himself how to speak and write Japanese and knows how to do the same with all the romantic languages. While in the priest factory he grew so disenchanted with the things he was being taught about the church that he left the factory place. However, unlike the yesteryears he was not hounded and other stuff as in the storys out of the dark ages have it of Voltaire or others. But, Voltaire it seems was in a similar boat as was the fellow I refer to. The manmade nature of it with its crude negative composition and very nature was more than he or Voltaire could handle, would be my opinion. - 19:12:03 on 4 Dec 97 GMT

Steven:MARLENE<<>> What has four legs in the morning, two legs in the afternoon, and three legs at night? - 19:13:40 on 4 Dec 97 GMT

Rob:Steven: Man- that is the oldest one in the book. Try again! - 19:21:59 on 4 Dec 97 GMT

Steven:What is the answer ROB? Dost thou speak true? - 19:48:10 on 4 Dec 97 GMT

Steven:ANY::::What has eyes but cannot see? Christian is not the correct answer here! - 20:12:17 on 4 Dec 97 GMT

Meghan:What arrogance of man, to believe that we have the capabilities to understand the universe and all its mysteries... that we, in our tiny minds, can truly comprehend the infinite or the divine. To claim to KNOW what or whether the divine is, is nothing but pride and foolishness. I find no more merit in he who tells me that he knows for a fact that there is no god than I do in the Christian Fundamentalist who sports a bumper sticker reading "In the Event of Rapture, this Car Will Become Unmanned." I am also offended by the intimation that a religious person and a thinking person cannot be the same person. I, myself, am both religious and thinking, and despite my disagreement with their philosophies, I must say that I daily meet Christians who think. Just an opinion from someone who freely admits that she doesn't KNOW what really moves the universe. (Although I do have ideas...) - 20:13:34 on 4 Dec 97 GMT

Steven:MEGHAN<<>>would you agree that an intelligent person would study or research something before they put their faith into it. If so, then you could not count a christian as an intelligent person. The reasons are obvious, for if they have any knowledge of history, then they will know that christianity is a politically inspired man made religion. That christianity is nothing more than a hodge podge of about 20 different religions that are far older than christianity. That just the bible in and of itself is laughable in how many times it contradicts itself. That the bible that a christian pust faith in is nothing more than a mythological recording of mass murders and bigotry. That the christian faith is the largest murder cult in the history of mankind. That genocide to the christian faith is an every other 10 year occurence. That christians brainwash their children into believing in evil drival that ANY intelligent adult will caste away as so much soiled toilet paper. I, and most atheist do not pretend or state that we know anything for a fact concerning big bang and other similar theories. WE do know however that the harbinger of knowledge is christianity. Shall I continue. And I would further speculate that being a christian yourself you will have no more answers or knowledge than the past jerk off idiot christians that have attempted to sway our thoughts that have visited this site! - 20:30:09 on 4 Dec 97 GMT

Steven:MEGHAN<<>> what arrogance of man that some think that we are the only creatures in the universe. What arrogance of man that in the past believed the sun and stars revolved around the earth. That heaven was in the clouds and Hades, ooops in mean the river styx ooop, i mean hell lies in the center of the earth. I do believe reading that Galileo soul was doomed for eternal hell for speculating that the earth revolves around the sun. CHRISTIANITY will be stricken from the earth. If not by education then by force. I hope you figure it out MEGHAN, for you are wasting your time praying and believing in Santa, ooops i mean Mithra, ooops I mean Allah, ooops I mean yaweh. - 20:38:05 on 4 Dec 97 GMT

Steven:Man, I have not had that much to say in a couple of days. Feels good! - 20:43:49 on 4 Dec 97 GMT

Meghan:STEVEN: Actually, I'm not a Christian and never have been. Yes, intelligent people study things before they decide to put their faith in them. I know many Christians who have studied extensively before deciding on their own religion. I also know many who consider me the harbinger of hell because I don't believe what they do... but there are many people who have true, tried faith in their religion. Some of them are, indeed, Christians. The Protestant minister who married me to my husband is someone I respect very deeply. He is very aware of the ridiculous-- even as it occurs within his own religion-- and is among many, many Christians I have met who do not feel that "holy wars" are holy. I don't pretend to know anything about Christianity, nor do I profess to have any "answers" as you put it-- for the very good reason that I don't believe that ANYONE has any answers. I say I have ideas about what moves the universe, and I mean that they are ideas. I also have ideas about what to eat for supper. Another idea I have is that it is impossible to tar any large group of people with the same brush and still claim that you are an educated, thinking individual. I also have the idea that any religion (make no mistake-- atheism is a religion, if not in the traditional, narrowly defined sense of the word) which defines itself solely as a reaction to Christianity isn't much of a religion. I confess that I have *no* idea what you mean by the statement that the harbinger of knowlege is christianity... and I would welcome it if you did chose to continue a discussion with me. However, I don't consider name calling a discussion, so let's leave things like "jerk-off idiot" out of it, okay? - 20:46:01 on 4 Dec 97 GMT

Meghan:AND SAY WHATEVER YOU WANT ABOUT GOD, BUT I know for a *fact* that SANTA IS REAL. big old bill the cat raspberry to YOU. - 20:49:31 on 4 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:STEVEN- Really good posts to Meggy! Unlike the other mythical creatures you mentioned, Santa is a "good guy". If mythmas is about anything let it be Santa! - 20:50:16 on 4 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene....not another mormon I hope...:MEG-You state that your "religious". Therefor you must have some docterine you subscribe to and what might that be? You use the word "faith" quite faithfully, can you define what "faith" means to you? - 20:55:22 on 4 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene...clarifying:MEG- Also you claim that "not believing in the supernatural" is a "religion", how so? - 20:57:21 on 4 Dec 97 GMT

Rob:Meghan: Well whilst you're busy not-tarring people with the same brush, remember that applies to atheist/agnostics too. - 21:15:33 on 4 Dec 97 GMT

Steven:MEGHAN<<>> I must apologize for comeing on a little strong. We occasionally have visiting mystics who come onto this site spewing their mythological bs from their little bible. - 21:18:12 on 4 Dec 97 GMT

Rob:Meghan: Both some good and some contestable points- I wish I could respond in more detail but I am really busy right now. I'll try and respond tommorow. - 21:24:13 on 4 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:Ahhhh! Either Meg was a mormon, Steve pissed her off, or I pissed her off, but more than likely she tar and brushed herself into a corner. Whatever, looks like she's gone. - 22:12:14 on 4 Dec 97 GMT

Adam CAT in the CHAT:What's the difference between a cat and a copyright infringement action? I just wanted to point out that I posted "What's the difference between a comma and a kitten?" month ago. No doubt, Steven the riddler was not aware of this. DOes anyone here remember me doing so? Marlene? Jo? - 23:51:32 on 4 Dec 97 GMT

Adam MEG PEGGED IT:Although Meghan certainly dropped some goofs in her post (e.g., atheisim is a religion), she quite accurately pegged a long-standing complaint that I have with several page denizens, to wit, a rampant tendency to say "all theists this" and "all christians that." Unless you are talking about VERY general assertions, like "all theism is ignorance," you are usually out of line in sandblasting large groups of people with the same hose. - 0:02:41 on 5 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene..fears cat-scratch fever:YIKES ADAM- you come up with so many good ones, I can't keep track. I hope this new one hasn't got anything to do with claws or...does it? - 0:03:19 on 5 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:ADAM- What the hell is the difference between a theist and a christian other than the dogma they covet, a christian is a theist. I do agree with your all theism is ignorance. I would almost gar-ran-ass-T-U that Meg is mormon. Most of those types of theists normally initially post in the same context. - 0:08:14 on 5 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene..on a rampant tendency:All theists believe in something supernatural, all christians believe in something supernatural, all theists have an imaginary friend or friends. - 0:10:57 on 5 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene..theists deserve a little sandblasting:All theists profess to have faith, faith is a belief in something with or without evidence. There is no god therefor the faith theists have is without evidence. - 0:15:54 on 5 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene ..this idea deserves the rubber hose..:Divinity aka godly is again a theist idea. Dumb idea! - 0:21:13 on 5 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:--->ADAM..just to put your mind at ease, I do remember when you posted that riddle. In fact, if memory serves me correctly, you kept us hanging, breathlessy, for an entire weekend before giving us the answer. So, you may now put your ego to rest for a bit. - 0:52:38 on 5 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:WHERE IS BILL??????? It's been weeks since we've heard from him. If anyone has his e-mail address, can you send him a letter to check to make sure he hasn't been swept into the ocean or something? - 0:55:11 on 5 Dec 97 GMT

Adam RHETORICATTICALLY SPEAKING:Marlene: the "copyright infringement" thing was not a newly posed riddle, but rather a cat-got-your-tongue-in-cheek threat to sue Steven for reposting a modified version of my riddle of some month ago. Well, folks, gotta get to sleep: I've got court AND a doctor appointment tomorrow on top of work. Great---I get to spend the day with lawyers, doctors and journalists! How pro can you go? - 1:29:37 on 5 Dec 97 GMT

Adam ZZZZZZZZZZZ:…|o) - 1:31:44 on 5 Dec 97 GMT

RON...--->JOETTE...: Haven't heard from BILL either. He must be skiing or something fun with family. I miss you all..would love to come to Canada..how far away is Calgary from you? I'm online and email is open...7:35cst - 1:38:28 on 5 Dec 97 GMT

PapaSam:MEGHAN.Your opening statemeznt speaks of the arrogance of man -tiny minds - unable to comprehend the infinite or divine. First, I reject your use of the term 'divine'.As for the "infinite" - I have no idea of infinity. I don't think anyone has when talking of the universe, time or even numbers. I remember as children (budding philosophers) we used to query a young newcomer -"What's the biggest number in the world," and upon getting an answer in the gazillions gleefully telling him to double it. I cannot conceive the idea of the beginning of time. As I have said before, The universe and all life in it is a paradox. It shouldn't exist according to all the laws of reason but here we ar, debating with each other. You state that you are religious but freely admit that you don't really know what really moves the universe. It appears to me that your statement is an oxymoron. To be religious implies a belief in a god or gods having supreme authority. If you really don't know you're questioning your faith. That's good. As someone once said, "Doubt is the beginning of wisdom." - 2:09:03 on 5 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:--->RON...Calgary is more than 2,000 miles from where I live. It's a small world, but Canada is a biiiiggg country. - 2:10:55 on 5 Dec 97 GMT

PapaSam:MARLENE. All christians are theists but not all theists are christians. There are different degrees of theists. Some believe that their god created everything and everyone and left them on their own. Others create mythologies. The early primitives saw god in a volcano or other things in nature. As they became more sophisticated they developed pantheons of gods, then some dreamer decided one god was better. As religions grew other dramers found flaws and created variations on the theme. Beginning with Luther and abetted by Henry VIII who couldn't get enough divorces and had to resort to beheading to get rid of his unwanted wives the Catholic church lost its monopoly. Schism followed schism in the protestant churches and now they have hundreds of them. The Jewish, Moslem and Hindus all have divisions with varying degrees of orthodoxy. The amusing thing about religion is the certainty that all have that their particular brand is the only true faith. They fail to realize that their true faith is an accident of birth, and had the priest been born into a moslem family he would now be an imam. - 2:45:15 on 5 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene..Bill's email:JOETTE- I think it's ...Send2Bill@aol.com...I'm not sure of the capitals though. Try both, one should get through. - 4:17:34 on 5 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:RON- Calgary is about 800 miles from my place. Your directly south of me about 1500 miles. Calgary is my favorite city in Canada and the mountains are lovely. - 4:22:22 on 5 Dec 97 GMT

Peter:--RON--You live closer to Calgary than I do. - 4:26:18 on 5 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:PAPASAM- Yup! I'm aware that not all theists are christian, my point is that all theists believe in the supernatural, more specifically a "personal god". I'm glad you also caught Meg's "divine". The only "divine" I know of is good ole Bette. You did catch something that I didn't though, the fact that this theist doesn't hold with god the creator. On infinity, life, as we know it is not infinite. This I know. Now on other all matter being finite, I don't know. Maybe will figure it out some day. I reject the "idea" that human minds aren't capable as Meg suggests. Who knows what we may be capable of in the future! - 4:35:12 on 5 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene..who is tone deaf and can't play any instrument.:PETER- You've taken a break from your piano? We miss you! What type of music do you play? - 4:39:04 on 5 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:PAPASAM- Call me a nag but I still would like to know what you think of Martin Gardner declaring himself a fideist and claiming that his belief in a personal god makes more sense than reincarnation? - 4:50:20 on 5 Dec 97 GMT

PapaSam:MARLENE. Who is Martin Gardner? This is really a fast moving site. Take time out for lunch and when you come back it's all new. OK, so I eat a big lunch. But if you give me the rundown on him I'll be glad to work him over and put him in his place, wherever that may be. - 5:56:14 on 5 Dec 97 GMT

From the London Times, December 6th 1996 Jewish and part-Jewish soldiers fought for the Third Reich. What did they think they were doing? We shall never know Title; Hitler's martial Jews When will the Holocaust be the Holocaust, in all its terrible meaning and no more? When will professors stop finding a new "angle" on something that can never have an angle? When will the dreadful fools and madmen who prove that there was no Holocaust (I have just got another pamphlet saying as much), stop hating and even stop being mad? Never, I fear, but I have long ago given up trying to convince fools and professors that my nose is of standard British length and width and no more. Wearily, I shrug, and say, yes, I am a Jew, and no, no member of my family died in the Holocaust. And, just to clinch it, no my name has always been Levin, and never Featherstonhaugh-Golightly. Now then. What would you say if Adolf Hitler were on his throne and the Holocaust was in full blast, but German Jews were not only serving in Hitler's ranks, but personally enlisting in those ranks. Not just to find a place that the Nazis might not spot, but with full intent to take part in the war on Hitler's side? It sounds lunatic, and in a sense it was. But read this: It seems that those Jewish Germans who enlisted voluntarily and made efforts to remain in uniform even after their Jewish origins came under scrutiny by the authorities were allowed to do so. Indeed, some rose to high rank and several won the Ritterkreuz, the Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross, Germany's highest military decoration, awarded to fighter aces, U-boat captains and tank destroyers. They performed their feats of bravery at the height of the war, when the Nazi state was murdering German Jews in hundreds of thousands and the Jews of Eastern Europe in millions. Only they can explain why they chose the path they did, and all are now old or already dead. These almost unbelievable facts were dug up by a young American student, Bryan Rigg, who, in a chance meeting, was to reveal some of the most extraordinary true stories of the Second World War. Rigg did not even know, before he began his studies in this fascinating story, that he was of German-Jewish ancestry, but believed his family was of the Protestant Bible-belt, and among his amazements were the members of his family who had stayed in Germany and died in the Holocaust. And now, with this extraordinary story at our elbows, we are tempted to believe that the whole thing is, and must be, a hoax. But it isn't. It is not only true, from top to bottom, it is terrible. Terrible, you say? Just glance at one headline (the story broke in The Daily Telegraph), reading "Why men of Jewish blood shed it for Adolf Hitler". Answer that. I can't. Nor can anybody else. I am a Jew, and thus to be hated by Nazis; very well, I understand that, and shrug. But Mr Rigg has not just found a cache of almost unbelievable matter about Hitler's Reich and its evil madness, he has pointed a dagger at some of the newly known facts of the Holocaust, and well, let me say it again: "Why men of Jewish blood shed it for Adolf Hitler". For they did, they did, they did. Have you ever heard of Major Robert Bor chardt? No? Nor had I until very recently. He was a half-Jew, and a very brave man, and a very great fighter on Hitler's side. He did not commit atrocities, nor did he allow them in his units. He fought in Russia, in Rommel's Afrika Korps, and he was strewn with medals. Not long before he died, he spoke to the children of his old school, and this is what he said: "Many German Jews and half-Jews who fought in the First World War and even in the Second World War believed that they should honour their Fatherland by serving in the military." And many of them did. But what I want to know, and I imagine many others want to know, is what did Jews think they were doing when they were fighting for Hitler? Take the remarkable story a perfectly true story of the way Rabbi Schneerson was saved from the Nazis. The rabbi was the leader of the most ultra-orthodox Jews, and when the war broke he was trapped, and very likely to be killed by Hitler. There was a plea from the United States to let the Rabbi Schneerson go. It was touch and go; but then another German Jew, fighting in the war on the side of Hitler, took a hand: he was a very high officer, Ernst Bloch, who had fought in the First World War, and Schneerson was saved. And saved in the most macabre manner imaginable. Admiral Canaris recruited Bloch, and then Hitler made the world go round the other way; with a half-Jew staring him in his face, Hitler read the appropriate document: "I, Adolf Hitler, leader of the German nation, approve Major Ernst Bloch to be of German blood. However, after the war, Ernst Bloch will be re-evaluated to see if he is still worthy to have such a title." (Who said Hitler was sane?) But still the question must be asked and answered, why men of Jewish blood shed it for Adolf Hitler. Most of those men are now dead, and the dead cannot speak. If they could speak, what might they say? There would be many who would say "I didn't know how could I know? The whole world was there, and nobody knew nobody knew what that man called Hitler would do to the world and millions upon millions." Not enough. Not enough. You, the ones who were there, could see. Oh no, very few indeed could have guessed the whole of the madness (though even that could have been spotted and was by the tiny number who could read Mein Kampf from beginning to end), but that was not enough. Very well, not enough. What next? We must try to think into the minds of the survivors, and what they did and what lies they told. There is a very old man, 82 and failing, who has asked for anonymity; he shall have it. But he says that he served 6 1/2 years in Hitler's military, and became a captain. Presumably he drew the curtains when a Nazi went by. That's small fry. What about a real field marshal, a good friend of Goering and indeed a very important figure in the Nazi camp, for it was he who made the Luftwaffe the tremendous thing it became. That was Field Marshal Milch, and he was a Jew. But a field marshal, surely, should know better. And so should a Jew. Surely should? Did. Did. We come back to where we started. But not quite. For we now know the massive quantities of horror that poured out of Bryan Rigg's find. (It was luck, of a kind: he had just come out of a cinema and started to chat to another cinema-goer, a German, whereupon they began to speak, and the other man spoke of his life, whereupon "they talked until dawn". I bet they did.) We come back to where we started yet again. What were real Jews or even half-Jews (and there were many of these) doing with Adolf Hitler? True, there were people who saw through Hitler very quickly, but were sure that he would be a busted flush in no time. Well, he wasn't, and in the end the blood poured copiously. And there was no shortage of important people; Helmut Schmidt, who became the Chancellor of West Germany for eight years, had when somewhat younger been very much in the wrong place. This is yet another question that cannot be answered unless the dead rise from the grave to give the answers. It would be dreadful to say that the dead deserved what they got, because they didn't. Again, we hear the terrible words how could we have known? Perhaps the most pitiful or most deserved you can take it either way is that of Milch, the one who was "a personal friend of Hermann Goering". And instantly the thunder rolls; how does a Jew become a personal friend of Hermann Goering, and more to the point, why is he prepared to be one in the first place? Milch was tried and convicted in the Nuremberg war trials; his Jewishness did not help him, and he was imprisoned for ten years. But again and again, we ask the question, the question that cannot be answered. What was a Jew, or a half-Jew, doing with Adolf Hitler? God forbid that I should take sides in such a dreadful argument. It is enough that almost all the people concerned are now dead. But if they came to life, would they not instantly go back into the shades? Return to NewsDesk - 12:43:00 on 5 Dec 97 GMT

PETER:MARLENE---This time of year I am playing mostly Mythmas songs, as they seem to be the faves at all the functions I'm doing now. However, most of them are christmas pop songs like "Rockin'around the Xmas tree" etc.--Other than that I play Pop-Rock-Jazz-Blues; actually anything but classical ( too "regimented" for me!). My latest schtick is playing "candle in the Wind" while telling off-colour Princess Di jokes. - 13:34:32 on 5 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:PETER- Do you wear the rose colored glasses too? - 14:31:44 on 5 Dec 97 GMT

Steven:MARLENE<<>> Marilyn Manson has written a few mythmas songs that are quit interesting. - 15:29:32 on 5 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene..loves anything that riles the YICs:STEVEN- You mean I have a competitor, yikes! I haven't heard any of his stuff but when he came to Winnipeg to do a concert all hell broke loose with the xtians. They wanted him banned etc. etc.. Is there a site on the net with the lyrics to his mythmas songs? - 15:37:10 on 5 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:--->MARLENE..you have to give him a listen! If there is anything anti-religious, it's him! - 15:44:49 on 5 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:-->speaking of anti-religious...I am spending the weekend in the hell hole of Canada (Marlene, FYI, Sudbury..were you ever there?) - 15:46:49 on 5 Dec 97 GMT

Steven:TO WHOMEVER MADE THE ADOLF POST<<>> Sure Adolf was a nut, and sure some Jews probably help him out, but so what. If you look at any genocide this always happens. For example, the during the attempted genocide of Native Americans other Native Americans always were in the US army war party. It is a fact. If they were going out to slaughter a village they always had native guides and warriors with them. Once again I say it is strange, but so what. - 16:22:21 on 5 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:STEVEN- Good comparison! - 16:41:09 on 5 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- Yup! I've been there. The most memorable time was after the tornado. But as far as hell-holes go, it is only second to Wynyard, Sask. - 16:43:38 on 5 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:STEVEN- And the turncoats are still at it today, as Canadian government officials. - 16:45:24 on 5 Dec 97 GMT

Rob:From Jesus to Nazi-ruthlessness, I'm afraid if you choose to live in a way that is not grounded in reason, you can expect to die that way too. ALL: Have a nice whatver it is, and I'll be back in the New Year to remedy those theological blues... - 16:53:07 on 5 Dec 97 GMT

Meghan:I tried to post this last night, but I had to leave, so forgive me if I'm a little behind the thread of conversation. In answer to what is my religion, I am a pagan and I don't go for organized religion, but I don't make the mistake of assuming that other people are stupid because they do. I have noticed that when people make assumptions about people they don't know they often end up looking foolish. In addition, my personal experience has shown me that it's not the case. I personally believe (if you aren't interested in this part, skip it, but I was asked) that my religion must define my every action, that none of my decisions can be considered "exempt" from my system of beliefs, and that my decisions must be carefully considered in the context of the greater good, no matter how insignificant they seem. My religion is syncratic, and there is no doctrine in the true sense of the word. So, no, not another Mormon. I insist that I have no way of knowing whether the Mormons are right, though. I don't really know that they're wrong, although I've noticed that reading the Book of Mormon is like looking at the world through a fun house mirror. There are arrogant Christian fools. There are also arrogant fools who are New Age Pagans, Hindus, bus drivers, and Wal-Mart clerks. It's not necessarily inherent to the religion or the occupation. To assume that you are right and everyone else is wrong is arrogance no matter who you are-- even if you're an atheist. To tell me that I am wasting my time believing in Santa is the same arrogance displayed by the bible thumpers who stand outside the grocery store and ask if they can save my soul. You are not better than me because I am different from you. It's a ridiculous assumption, usually ascribed to Christians, but obviously not unique to them. I've missed a lot here-- but my point remains the same. I've noticed on this and the other atheism pages that I've been reading the past few days that there is a lot of emphasis on using sophist logic to confound theists, Christians, whatever, by trying to get them to "prove" their beliefs. And a feeling of triumph when they can't. Of course they can't. I can't *prove* that I love my husband-- but I know I do. I also know that there's a god. You know there isn't a god. I can accept that, and it doesn't make me or you stupid. It is concievable that we're *all* right. Atheists, pagan fundamentalists, Mormons, and all. - 19:16:01 on 5 Dec 97 GMT

Meghan:PAPASAM .. no- the arrogance of man is NOT that they can't comprehend-- obviously we can. The arrogance I am speaking of is when one person decides that what she comprehends, understands, or knows to be true is the ONLY truth, and that anyone who believes differently is stupid, wrong, and a "jerk-off idiot." Just because I know that there is a goddess doesn't mean that Christians are necessarily wrong. Nor does it mean that they are stupid because they refuse to believe there's a goddess. You follow? - 19:22:57 on 5 Dec 97 GMT

Meghan:The word "religious" means devout, pious, or conscientiously exact, or of or concerning religion. Nothing about supreme authority. My religious beliefs have never included the idea of supreme authority, nor do I believe that I practice the one true religion. Unlike most people, who start as a member of a religion and move to an absence of religion, I was raised without religion, and came to my own faith from a position of atheism. Sorry about my disjointed messages-- but somehow I keep missing things and then catching them the next time through. - 19:40:16 on 5 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene..oops, not mormon but "a follower of the goddess" :MEG- Since you've mentioned you believe that there is a goddess, have you read _The Chalice and the Blade_? As long as the laws of my country and the lessons taught to children in public schools are not based on a mythical god, goddess or whatever then people can believe in all the imaginary characters they want to. If you choose to do so this fine but IMO this belief in a goddess is absolutely no different than a belief in "god", "elves", "fairies" and the list can go on and on as far as the "imagination" take it. As far as "proving" love. I would imagine your husband will measure the love you have for him by your actions or lack of them. We're talking "physical" beings here, not imaginary ones. - 20:39:16 on 5 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:MEG- BTW, religious implies "of religion" or "connected to religion" "devoted to worship of god or gods" . It sounds like your description of your beliefs best fits the latter. - 20:45:37 on 5 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:MEG- Another author that you may be familiar with is Marija Gimbutas..? - 20:47:56 on 5 Dec 97 GMT

Meghan:My actions DEMONSTRATE my love for my husband-- you can't prove the existence of love. It's not a tangible thing. He has to take it on faith that I love him. You are forgetting that to me, the goddess, elves, fairies, ghosts, etc, are no less imaginary than you, me, and my husband. The minute you PROVE to me that they don't exist, I will accept that they are imaginary. In the meantime, you need to realize that people don't fit into neat little boxes with labels and that YOUR definition of a thing isn't necessarily the same as the thing. No, I have not read _The Chalice and the Blade._ I have discovered that most books written about new age religions don't apply to me. You are trying to dismiss me and my opinions by labeling me-- and it doesn't wash. The best label for my beliefs is pagan fundamentalist, but it's as irrelevant as "follower of the goddess." Because *what* I believe in isn't important. The point is that believing is not synonymous with stupidity. You can attack organized and individual religion all you want- but the minute you start trying to take the position that what you know is absolute and what I know is imagination, you are just taking the same position you claim to abhor. Gross generalizations are entertaining, but nearly always untrue. The world is mutable. Distinctions between real and unreal are ridiculous. Get used to it. - 21:06:53 on 5 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:MEG- If you want to defend your belief here then what you believe IS relevant. COME ON NOW Meg, an elf is as "real" as me. I exsist. I have proof of my exsistence. An elf doesn't. Love is an emotion and emotions exsist. I believe what is evident. There is no evidence of your god or goddess. You'd think that in order to be a "pagan" you would have read something on your belief. Your belief in these imaginary characters are common to a mental illness where one disassociates him/her self from reality. If you are here to defend your belief then I suggest you have more evidence for it that what you feel. - 21:17:06 on 5 Dec 97 GMT

Meghan:Nope, don't know Gimbujas either. But then, I'm terrible on remembering author's names. Try me on King Arthur or Santa Claus. :) - 21:17:45 on 5 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene..and BTW:MEG- Believing, without evidence is synonymous with stupidity. - 21:19:37 on 5 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene...:MEG- Did King Arthur or Santa Claus write any essays or books? - 21:21:34 on 5 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene...:Well MEG, gotta go, I'll be back in half an hour. Hopefully you'll post some evidence for your belief in the supernatural...until then.. - 21:24:54 on 5 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:MEG- BTW, the two authors I've mentioned try their damndest to prove the original god is actually a goddess. What DO you read? - 21:27:27 on 5 Dec 97 GMT

Meghan:Try studying Anthropology for a few semesters. Maybe you'll understand what I'm talking about. To me, what I believe IS real. Prove to me that YOU are real. I've never seen you. I can't touch you. And no, I'm not schizophrenic, nor do I have a personality disorder. Prove to me that the sun is a big hot ball and not a glowing disk in the sky. Prove to me that the number 2 means 2. Prove to me that the schizophrenic who says she's seen Jesus hasn't seen Jesus. If we try to exist only on what we can prove, either we have to fail to understand the nature of proof or we have to accept that we know NOTHING. God is evident to me-- not in ways that you accept as evident. So what. I don't need to "defend what I believe"-- because I am not arguing for MY BELIEFS, but for the ACT OF BELIEVING. You have decided that you KNOW there is not a god, and that everyone who thinks to the contrary is a fool. And I, because I haven't read the only two authors you can think of, am ignorant and don't know what I'm talking about. Those two authors are no more relevant than the 1,000 I have read. The point is that what you believe and what I believe are DIFFERENT. That doesn't make either of us WRONG. I refuse to argue theology. It's pointless, because what is true for me ISN'T true for you. It's nothing but pure hypocrisy to say any different. And trying to get me to "defend my beliefs" is just avoiding the issue. YOU defend YOUR beliefs. Prove to me that there's no god. Prove to me that I'm wrong. Prove to me that YOU are the disciple of the one true theory and that I, who believes we are BOTH right, am wrong. AND MY NAME IS MEGHAN. It's only three letters longer. Give it a try. - 21:33:16 on 5 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene..what ARE you saying???:MEG- Actually I'm really surprized, you being an "Anthropology" student and you haven't read these two authors! We'd had many anthropology students here and these are two of the most quoted authors. You arguments that I don't exsist are absolutely ridiculous and you arguments that a god..oops..goddess exsists are even more ridiculous. If your not here to argue theology, what ARE you here for? - 22:14:23 on 5 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:MEG- Your implying quite a extraordinary thing, the belief in a god or goddess. If I were to make the same statement saying that there is a winged pig beside me then I'm sure I'd have to give some type of physical evidence to support that claim. There is no evidence of a god therefor my position is that, there is no god. The lack of evidence supports my claim. - 22:20:15 on 5 Dec 97 GMT

Meghan:I didn't say you DON'T exist-- I said you can't prove to me that you DO. AH, yes. I see. If you can just get me off this dangerous topic of the nature of truth, proof, and reality (about which you apparently have nothing to say) you can use your sophist logic on me and prove to yourself how smart you are! You claim that you base your beliefs in logic and on evidence, yet you are incapable of taking a proactive line of reasoning. You are incapable of conversing if you can't react. How very sad. You are also incapable of carrying on a conversation that travels outside your own, narrow frame of knowlege. How ignorant I am not to have read what YOU think I should have. Three thousand books isn't enough, because I haven't read those two. I find it highly ironic that yo call ME ridiculous. Unfortunately, I have to leave. I do so love to argue. It's a pity you don't know how. - 22:29:48 on 5 Dec 97 GMT

PapaSam:MARLENE. No name calling, please. Meghan is far from stupid, nor is she mad. She expresses herself very clearly, and while I disagree with her conclusions I can at least respect the fact that they are her own, and not the predigested pap of organized religions. MEGHAN. You are, of course, free to create a goddess in your own image, just as the judaeo-christian followers created a male god in their own image, although they claim the reverse is true. But the burden of proof rests on the individual making a claim. If I claim to own a Rolls Royce I should be able to produce the car and a registration with my name on it. It's a little difficult to prove the existance of invisible gods or goddesses but that's not my problem. You make a claim, you prove it. - 22:37:19 on 5 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:Hold on there PAPASAM- Did I call Meg stupid? I don't think so! - 22:42:19 on 5 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene..:MEG- I'm sure that I can prove to you that I do exsist, I could meet you in person or I could write you a letter, sign my name and have authorities garantee it is my signature. No, Meg it's you that doesn't seem to argue effectively. I did not call you ridiculous or stupid, I did call your claims ridiculous and stupid. If you choose to victimize yourself rather than support your claims, it isn't my problem. - 22:48:37 on 5 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:PAPASAM- Do you truly feel that someone who converses with, sees, has a relationship with a non-exsistent being, is mentally stable? Remember, scarifices of one's own child were done because of these types of relationships. I will post on Martin Gardner, who he is, and what he claims, after supper. - 23:25:17 on 5 Dec 97 GMT

clif:It is not an act of stupidity to claim that there is a god. There is no evidence to prove there is a god and there is no evidence to disprove it either. There may be a god. There my be an invisibly pink unicorn(check out the IPU website) The idea that there is a god is a stab in the dark, it has no scientific evidence. The human mind needs answers to things it doesnt know so it satisfies itself with the idea of god. - 23:25:54 on 5 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:CLIF- The lack of evidence shows that it's 99.99% certain that there is no god. If someone said that there is no such thing as a camel would you consider that an intelligent statement? - 23:42:03 on 5 Dec 97 GMT

jaywilson:CLIF: While there is no god--if there were one, we would all agree that it existed--I do like to imagine an entity which is the sum total of all I cannot know or understand. Knowing I cannot know all is a control of sorts on my ego, yet not enough to keep me from reading, speaking, writing, and listening, in hopes of knowing as much as possible.. The limit of my ability to know all keeps me humble. Humble but hungry: that is how I imagine mankind to be at its best, and I hope my children get closer to knowing what I cannot. A tall order, but I make that order daily. - 23:55:35 on 5 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:PAPASAM- Alrighty then, Martin Gardner. Is 83 years old, a member of CSICOP, has written numerous essays and books, one being _Fads and Fallacies in the Name of Science_. He wrote a column in _Scientific American_ for 25 years. Another one of his books was _Great Cult Mystery_. I've quite admired him as he normally does a good job of bovining sacred cows. _Skeptic_ did an interview with him and this is what he had to say. "" Skeptic: Inevitably skepticism lead to asking the God question. You call yourself a fideist. Gardner: I call myself a philosophical theist, or sometimes a fideist, who believes something on the basis of emotional reasons rather than intellectual reasons. Skeptic: This will surely strike readers as something of a paradox for a man who is skeptical about so many things. Gardner: People think that if you don't believe Uri Geller can bend spoons then you must be an atheist. But I think these are two different things. I call myself a philosophical theist in the tradition of Kant, Charles Pierce, William James, and especially Miguel Unamuno, one of my favorite philosophers. As a fideist I don't think there are any arguments that prove the exsistence of God or the immortality of the soul. Even more than that, I agree with Unamuno, that the atheists have the better arguments. So it is a case of quixotic emotional belief that is really against the evidence and the odds. The classic essay in defence of fideism is William James' _The Will to Believe_. James' argument, in essence, is that if you have strong emotional reasons for a metaphysical belief, and it is not stronly contradicted by science or logical reasons, then you have a right to take a leap of faith if it provides sufficient satisfaction. Skeptic: Couldn't someone make this same argument for the belief in New Age hokum? Couldn't they quote you in support of their beliefs? Gardner: They could use that argument, except New Agers also have a whole series of beliefs that can be empirically refuted. Like reincarnation- the evidence against that is overwhelming............. - 0:43:00 on 6 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:PAPASAM- My argument with Gardner is this. The same method he has used to show that reincarnation is not a possibility would be used to prove that his "immortal soul" and "God" does not exsist. What do you think? - 0:45:50 on 6 Dec 97 GMT

Adam CLIF NOTES:Slippery Slope: Clif, don't get into the turf---covered here many a time---on which proof of existence and of nonexistence of god are on equal footing. The atheist makes no affirmative assertion, but rather a negative one based on the lack of evidence (that is, "in the absence of evidence of god, I refuse to accept that god exists'). This is a far cry from making an affirmative assertion of existence, which necessarily cries out for proof in the mind of rational individuals. If your point merely is that not all believers in mythologies, including religion, are top-to-bottom stupid, you will find few if any denizens of this page to disagree with you. Indeed, I often point out, to my own dismay, that Einstein himself implied that the magnificance of universal structure he so aptly studied and explained led him to conclude that there was a plan behind that structure. To be sure, he was not, in general, a stupid man. However, it is not off-base to assert---as I do repeatedly---that all religion is ignorance, for whatever is presumed without a reasonable explanation based in fact (and this does not mean that observation or proof is required to meet the thresshold), is per se ignorant. Although I dare say that none of the Atheists on the page would actually assert that all theists are ignorant in all aspects of their lives, it may at times appear to be the case, because the narrow band of ignorance known as religion has bred such a disproportionate degree of harm and death throughout history that atheists are quite reasonably prone to convey a commensurate degree of resentment toward belief, if not the believers. Hey, can anyone tell me what the f*** I'm talking about? - 1:04:20 on 6 Dec 97 GMT

Adam PLAN B from OUTER SPACE:At any rate, everyone soon will find out that the true gospel is contained in the works of the Seuss and his many disciples. The wrath of the Cat at the parade in New York is only the first such "enlightenment" of the sinners. - 1:07:50 on 6 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene...agreed..:ADAM- I'm impressed! Corny couldn't have said it any better. Your post, almost the first truly serious one you've made, is very clear! Seuss sucks! - 2:14:01 on 6 Dec 97 GMT

James--->Ladies...:Geez, what does it tell you folks that I would give a link to the page. I realized that I was in error and stated so. I also provided a link so that you folk's could read for yourselves. Initially, I was speaking from news reports I heard on the radio. After I did a little searching I came across the link that I posted here. Anyway, the point remains the same; you can't make sweeping judgements about people who align themselves with certain beliefs. What is so incredibly difficult to understand about that? I liken it to the sweeping judgements still made today on this page about people of theist and specifically Christian ideology. Moreover, the lung donation and general jest of the story reminded me of an old poster named Richard. Based on his and other's line of reasoning, because this boy is said to be a self professed atheist, (doesn't matter if he is capable of making those decisions) I should think the worst of every atheist that ever lived. But, unlike many of you folks, I don't. I am smart enough to realize that one lunatic or even 100 lunatics within the atheist sect does not mean all atheist are murdering scum. Sorry I got anyone's feathers ruffled, the last thing I want is cause you folks to feel like you have to be mean to me. What is the point with that? Being nice or respectful to someone's thoughts or sensitivities should not hinge on whether you agree or disagree with their point of view. It is one of those common moral values most people share, atheists and Christians alike. If we were to sit and compare what we believe to be good moral values we all might be surprised to learn how many we share. That common thread is in itself our religion. So for the sake of common good moral sense, "can't we all just get along". - 2:19:00 on 6 Dec 97 GMT

James--->Marlene...:You can prove you exist, but can you prove you love your children, husband, parents and etc.? How? Is love real or myth? - 2:25:30 on 6 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:JAMES- What IS love, first and foremost? It's a strong emotion of attachment to someone or something. If we are normally functioning human beings this "strong emotional attachment" or "love" is shown by our willingness to give of ourselves to that someone or something else. I definately give of myself to my children and my partner, the parents are dead. To witness the things I've done gives some evidence of my strong emotional ties to them. Is it real? Emotions are real, without them we wouldn't be a normal functioning human. This example does nothing to prove the exsistence of your god, James. BTW, I have never said all xtians are murdering scum although the ones who shoot doctors are. The problem being is that they say they murder in the name of their god. They give a bad image of the theist who is against abortion. How's school? Are you finished? Have you embarked on a new career? - 2:53:42 on 6 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:All- Up until I read Gardner's interview I hadn't realized how many "eists" there are , we have theist, diest, fideist and atheist. How many more are there? - 4:02:35 on 6 Dec 97 GMT

PapaSam:MARLENE. Do I feel that someone who converses, etc. with a non-existant being is mentally stable? In this particular instance relating to the existence of a god, yes I do. Harboring erroneous beliefs is not in itself a sign of mental instability, whether about so called spiritual or physical things. People usd to believe the earth was flat. They were misinformed, not crazy. It all boils down to what Gardner freely admits. "The atheists have the better arguments so it is a matter of quixotic emotional belief that is really against the evidence and the odds." Personally I don't care to quote anyone but in this instance it is made by the opposition and backs my point of view. I believe that in the battle between reason and emotion reason doesn't stand a very good chance of winning. I too am a member of CSICOP but I speak only for myself, as he does for himself. Aside from our disagreement in this area I offer him the respect due my seniors - I'm ony a kid of 82. MARLENE. You lft a chink in your armor. What do you mean 99.99%? I opt for 100. - 4:17:43 on 6 Dec 97 GMT

PapaSam:MARLENE. Your earlier posting to Meghan stating "Believing without evidence is synonomous with stupidity leaves the impression - probably unintentional - that you did imply she was stupid. Such is the heat of battle! Your mention of child sacriice opens up the area of morality. The Incan who offered up his child for sacrifice thought he was doing the moral thing, assuring his child a place in whatever heaven they believed in and bringing great honor upon his family. They probably vied for the privilege. The gods work in mysterious ways their wonders to behold. - 4:37:02 on 6 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene..I see no difference:PAPASAM- It's a bit of a contradition for personal relationships with a imaginary god to be "normal" when Sam schizo down the street (and I really do have a Sam schizo down the stree) believes the elf under his bed created him and the universe and is his guardian elf. I see no difference. On the 99.99 thing, I am open to this god or goddess or elf IF evidence can be presented it exsists. One has to leave a little room for new evidence. If my life depended on it, I would go with "no god..or goddess..or elf..or fairy..or - 4:49:54 on 6 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene..all means the same damn thing:PAPASAM- If it pleases the board, I can change my wording. To believe in something with no support evidence is senseless. Better? - 4:57:30 on 6 Dec 97 GMT

PapaSam:MARLENE. The key word here is 'imaginary'. You and I may believe "there ain't no such animal", but our lack of belief does not make it less real to her. - 6:56:32 on 6 Dec 97 GMT

PapaSam:MARLENE. Re the term 'senseless'. I would prefer the term "unreasonable". It gets the thought across but is less likely to give offense.. It's purely a question of semantics and i'm something of a nitpicker in that area. - 7:04:43 on 6 Dec 97 GMT

RICHARD:HOPE YOU DID NOT THINK I HAD GONE, JUST SPENT THE LAST 8 DAYS FIGHTING BUSHFIRES AND I THANK GOD FOR THE PROTECTION HE GAVE TO ME AND OTHERS DURING THIS TIME ! YES, GOD IS INDEED A REALITY AND ABLE TO DELIVER FROM THE MOST DEATHLY CIRCUMSTANCES, AMEN. HE HAS DELIVERED ALL THOSE WHO HAVE BELIeVED ON HIS SON THE LORD JESUS, DELIVERED THEM FROM ETERNAL DEATH AND WE WHO BELIEVE LIVE BY THE LIFE THAT JESUS HAS, FOR HE IS ALIVE FROM THE DEAD AND ABLE TO SUCCOUR ALL THAT COME UNTO HIM. SO THAT THEY WHO BELIVE HAVE PASSED FROM DEATH UNTO LIFE ETERNAL, AND HAVE IN US A HOPE OF GLORY TO COME AND A VICTORY IN LIFE'S CIRCUMSTANCES, NO MATTER HOW HARD THOSE CIRCUMSTANCES MAY BE, FOR WE HAVE A SAVIOUR GREAT AND HOLY. EVEN CHRIST JESUS WHO CAN TAKE FROM US ALL OUR BURDENS AND GIVES US REST UNTO OUR SOULS. IT'S TRUE JESUS DID THAT FOR ME AND CONTINUES TO DO SO PRAISE HIS NAME. SO COME ALL YOU WHO ARE HEAVY LADEN AND JESUS WILL GIVE YOU REST. - 7:45:31 on 6 Dec 97 GMT

Grant:RICHARD-- Yes, you have been succoured all right. There's another succour born every minute. Why do fire fighters bother with all the safety precautions? Aren't you afraid Jesus will think you don't trust him? - 8:15:30 on 6 Dec 97 GMT

Grant:JAMES-- Of course it's easy to get along with anyone if you do everything their way, but it's sometimes hard to get along with people who say that you have no morals, are a follower of their evil deity whether you know it or not, etc. I agree with you and with Adam that over-generalization is evident here at times, but some generalization is necessary and reasonable IMO, for example, theists are willing to believe things without proof. Theists wish to impose their beliefs on others. Theists tend to act as though the end justifies the means in religious matters, etc. BTW, you're not one of those who believe that atheism is a religion are you? I only ask because of your "within the atheist sect." - 9:44:04 on 6 Dec 97 GMT

Grant:MEGHAN-- It is not concievable that "we're *all* right. Atheists, pagan fundamentalists, Mormons, and all." A thing exists or it doesn't. You can't have it both ways unless you have some really unusual views on reality. - 10:07:11 on 6 Dec 97 GMT

Grant:OPEN-- Speaking of Mormons, have you considered this? Mormons believe that in the afterlife you don't have to sit around moon-eyed praising God, but that you can eventually become a god and do the whole Garden of Eden, Ten Commandments, burning bush thing yourself. Of couse this begs the question- Then is our god one of thousands or millions of similar gods, each with a planet of their own? No. It turns out, against all odds, from an eternity perspective, that our current god is THE God, the first one, eventually the granddaddy of all gods. He will always be the prime one. The multiple world- multiple god thing is yet ahead of us. - 10:33:23 on 6 Dec 97 GMT

Grant:MARLENE-- I'm with Joette. Say what you think. Everyone has the right of rebuttal. - 10:38:43 on 6 Dec 97 GMT

Alex:Hi. God is an idea. Even the atheist has an idea of God which he professes not to believe. The map is not the territory. Of course, neither does it prove the territory exists. Check out http://www.chaffee.net/~oneeye. - 14:12:45 on 6 Dec 97 GMT

James--->Marlene...:You have used the word emotion to describe a definition of love. However, I am having a hard time proving to myself that emotions are real. How do I know they are any more than a passing thought. Are thoughts real? Can you prove to me you are thinking? Can you prove to me you are feeling? Many would say that they have been witnesses to miracles but alas the proof is not evident. The sacrifices you've made for your loved ones may have been interpreted by them and yourself as love, but it does nothing to prove to me that love is real or the you really love anyone. It is not a provable concept and therefore the recipient of these emotions must rely on faith to accept the love you say you have for them and vice versa. Normal is a RELATIVE description of your perception of functioning human beings. The example was not intended to prove the existence of god, but rather to point out that whether we like it or not there are many things in this world unknown to us and accepting peoples belief in the unknown, like I accept that you love your children, is not an indication of some kind of mental disorder or a belief in pink unicorns. My point is only to open your mind to other possibilities and don't be so narrow in your perception of reality. Christians and anyone else who murders in the name of god are indeed scum and to a certain extent in my mind worse than just the typical murderer. School was put on hold this winter semester. I have been at a new job that has required a lot of my attention. I supervise a computer help desk that supports 6000 users worldwide using a wide variety of hardware, WAN and LAN connects as well as software and logistical problems. Additionally I am the Network Administrator for one of our plants here in Houston. We just moved our offices to the other side of town and everything has been chaos for a while. Anyway, I will back in full swing when the spring semester starts. I completed 34 hours in a winter, spring and summer semester going on nights and weekends and maintained a 4.0 GPA. I am looking forward to concentrating my efforts on school once again in the very near future. Meanwhile, I have been doing quite a bit of self -study to obtain an MSCE (Microsoft Certified Engineer). All my car projects except my wife's bug are on hold and I have barely had time to mow my grass. But, that's the way I like it; never a dull moment. Thanks for inquiring. How are things with you? - 14:35:03 on 6 Dec 97 GMT

James--->Grant...:I would agree. It is difficult to get along with people who look to persecute you based solely on your beliefs. Additionally I would also agree that a certain amount of generalization is statistically correct and required. For example statistically one should understand that the third ward in the City of Houston is a very high crime area and is best avoided. I could follow that by saying people who live in this area are criminals. A generally true observation but dangerously incorrect to the innocent. Grant, theists and atheist alike must believe things without proof, just as Marlene must believe her children love her and I believe she loves her children. Even atheists must believe that the sun will rise tomorrow without considering it may not and until it does it has not. Some theists wish to impose their beliefs on others, not all. IMO and experience in life, that is not a reasonable generalization and the same is true of your belief without proof that theist as a whole believe the end justifies the means in religious matters. Which sounds like more of a governmental point of view rather than a religious one. No, I do not believe that atheism is a religion. I struggled with it for a while but have convinced myself that many atheists manifest their religion into simple common sense, common moral values and the struggle to maintain them Along with the idea of free thought these elements represent the concept of religion within the atheist belief system. In general terms they are not unlike many organized religious doctrines. - 14:36:13 on 6 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:GRANT- Good to see you back, where HAVE you been. I've been here a long time but in the last two days we've had theists who claim that god is an "idea", three acually. I've never heard this before although I do agree that their god is just that, an idea. Some ideas are good ideas, some bad, some smart, some dumb. I would say the god one is one of the dumb ones. Yes, I've read quite a bit on mormons since we've had quite a few visit here tying to save our souls. One of their beliefs that are totally different than regular run of the mill YICs is that one can still be saved in the afterlife. It's not a must while one is a living breathing human. I liked your post to the YIC downunder. You'd think if he prayed hard enough that his jesus would cause it to rain to put out the fires. - 14:57:45 on 6 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:PAPASAM- I really don't care if someone takes offense to me stating a fact. If so, then how confident are they in their belief. I'm not running for president so I'm not here to impress others with politically correct statements. One of the laws of our land is that it is against the law to steal. EVERYONE knows this is a fact whether they feel it is right or wrong. If a judge sentences an offender to jail time, should he worry if he offends the person? Fact is fact. - 15:04:52 on 6 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:JAMES- I'm glad your doing well. It must be a pain that you have had time to work on your (as my partner calls his cars) jewels. Now to emotions. Does anger exsist? Does jealousy exsist? Does sadness exsist? Do any human emotions exsist? I say that from interacting with people that all emotions exsist. If we're short even one of them then were not a fully fuctioning human. Emotions are a mystery. Still has nothing to do with your god unless the "idea" of god was created out of man's emotion of fear. - 15:12:14 on 6 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:JAMES- Sheesh, I forgot all the negatives. It should have read "haven't had time" and "emotions aren't a mystery" - 15:14:20 on 6 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:ALEX the ZENJEW- Is this for real or is it a joke? How much money do you intend to make after this? Is the air that thin in Colorado? - 15:20:13 on 6 Dec 97 GMT

Bill..:Hi everyone! It's been a few weeks since I have posted here, but I am still alive and kicking. I've been busy with vacation, work, and family. I do lurk once in awhile to see who's kicking whose ass, ha! I agree with Papasam that the universe is a paradox. When energy is converted to matter, in the lab, we get an equal amount of "matter" and "anti-matter." In the very early universe this converting from energy into matter and subsequent random collisions and annihilations of matter/anti-matter pairs back to an energy state is, from the very beginning, a paradox. With the expansion of the universe these collisions were minimized and organization occurred. And why does matter even exist as we know it? Either there exists an equal amount of anti-matter in certain regions of the universe (that organized), or there must have been a minute amount more matter than there was anti-matter. The universe, as we know it, might be that minute amount. So does this seem logical, if you were a human like creator, to even start off the universe in this manor? Why not just create matter, period? Secondly, why do we have two opposing deterministic/objective properties of the universe? On one hand, via the four major forces in the universe, we have the organization (via micro-evolution) of particles and elements to form that which we know as nature. On the other hand we have, opposing this organization, the universal property of Entropy (disorganization, decay, and death). Eventually, when all the heat is gone, and the universe has expanded to such a point in space/time there will be no more energy and no more organization. Eventually all energy will die….not to exclude potential spiritual realities. One day we are loving the beauty of nature (sunsets, etc) and the next we are being destroyed by it (hurricane)---not to mention the potential cosmic collision that would reduce all life forms back to the cockroach level, ha! Nothing can kill those buggers. So, why would a perfect God create a paradoxical (seemingly imperfect) universe? Are personal God's just human creations of higher intelligence's and ego minds? Their variety (according to culture/race) and quantity (worldwide) certainly suggest that man has created God's according to Man's own image. Why does man do this? Doesn't our deterministic nature (survival) promote this? Are we not programmed to survive---no matter what the form (spiritual/material)? If anything were god, would it not be the unconscious universe as a whole, from which we evolved? Are we not simply the eyes of this universal body? Lastly, our rationality (the evolved tool in which we utilize to survive) only exist within this "organizational" half of the universe. How can we impose our rationality upon the universe as a whole? Opps, I gotta go piss, goodbye! - 18:41:19 on 6 Dec 97 GMT

RON...--->ALL...:Life is a wonderful experience. Makes you wonder why we don't kill each other off with greater frequency. Today, to me, whether the universe was created, with or without, intelligents is not worth burning a gray cell over. Right now...I want to put myself back in a creative environment and have much more access to my son. Work is great, I'm working out, women are creatures, sex is a nearly forgotten past time, I'm writing a journal - recording my feelings and thoughts from day to day, and making sure I'm surrounded by good people. My prayers come less and less to me...I'm slowly coming back into balance with Nature. Sure, the loss of my family haunts me from time to time but, I'm better off now, emotionally. FOG never appeared to me in a dream or vision. - 21:04:07 on 6 Dec 97 GMT

PapaSam:RICHARD.Glad to know god can deliver you from most deathly circumstances. What I would like to know is why he put you there in the first place? To make you jump? Now tell me about this guy jesus. You say he's god's son and I hear his mother Mary was a virgin. So how did god impregnate her? Was it by in vitro or was it actually some form of parthogenesis? And where does the holy ghost fit in? I don't really like to discuss sex in public but this is the only way I can reach you. I would really like to know. A few other questions. Did your god give free will to everybody so that they could choose whether they would be good or bad? Does everybody have free will. Does a baby get its free will when it's born? Is one person's free wil better or stronger than another's? I hope I'm not putting too much pressure with these questions. With your closeness to god you should have no trouble finding out. The reason I'm asking these questions is this. A little girl was raped, sodomized and killed. If you could have prevented this from happening would you have done so? I think you would have tried. But your god, invoking his principal of free will allowed it to happen because he thought it would not be nice to take away the rapist's free will.The appalling thing about it is that you worship such a god. Think about it. Another thing. A steeple fell into a church some time ago killing a few of the parishioners. Were they in the wrong shurch? A builder built a wall in a shopping center and the wall collapsed killing a man. The builder was taken to court and charged with negligence. He was called a lousy mechanic. Your god presumably created the earth. We have earthquakes, floods, tornadoes and typhoons killing thousands*. Would you call your god a good mechanic? I'm looking forward with great anticipation for your most enlightening answers. *From my work "An Atheist's Prayer" available by email at PapaSam@webtv.net - 22:06:35 on 6 Dec 97 GMT

Bill..:HI RON, Glad to hear your making it OK. I agree that some things are more important than trying to figure out the universe (ie family). I mostly talk about physics, god, and universal things here; not in my everyday life. I did write a xmas letter this year for family and friends. If you and others want a copy, I will email it to you if you request (Send2Bill@Aol.com). I promise that it is only to inform and entertain, and there are no controversial writings. Oh, I plagiarized your "cow staring at a passing train" statement. I hope you don't mind! - 22:57:55 on 6 Dec 97 GMT

PapaSam:JAMES. Your metaphysical meanderings on emotion and whether thoughts exist are the same old regurgitated garbage that self proclaimed philosophers have been spouting for years. If the old Greeks had torn themselves away from their peripatetic wanderings and 'lived a life' they wouldn't have tried to analyze emotions. I am reminded of the tale of one them, who, upon being told of his wife's death, remarked, "I always knew she was mortal." When I held the woman I loved in my arms I didn't have to go to the dictionary to find out what love was, and I didn't have to to look up the word sad or sorrowful when she died. You ask, "Are thoughts real?" The fact that you ask that question, in itself, proves that they are, although I must say, in my opinion, you're not doing too well in your own thinking process. You may be tangled in your own sophistries, but you are thinking nevertheless. Hopefully, if you luck out, you may find the right woman and you will finally discover what love is. Good luck. - 1:27:24 on 7 Dec 97 GMT

RICHARD:Grant; At least I've got the guts to go out and face the bushfires - 1:28:02 on 7 Dec 97 GMT

RICHARD:PapaSam; Why should I cast pearls before you ? you want to know how Miriam got pregnant ? it was a work of God by the holy spirit, a miracle, but you do NOT belive in such do you. You will NOT find it under the microscope in the laboratory I can tell you that. - 1:31:42 on 7 Dec 97 GMT

PapaSam:ALEX. You made me do it. I usually refrain from using vulgar language but on rare occasions it is the most expressive form of criticism. Therfore, feeling I have no other recourse I will say it. There is bullshit, there is horseshit, and there is ACIM. - 1:39:54 on 7 Dec 97 GMT

RON...--->BILL...:It's so good to hear from you. I've missed you wit and support. Joette actually missed you too. Go ahead and use the cow line, it's a.o.k. Speaking of, I have your Christmas letter, thank you. Very amusing and kind. I like it. Well, another day of working has come and gone...thinking of Nature and FOG today...wondering why I'm walking in these boots and not the shoes of a happy man. I miss those fat days of comfort and defiance before christ. Never thought looking from the outside-in could be so painful and clear at the same time. Looking forward to some free time after the rush is over and Christmas is but a stomach ache to the general public. Christmas will be a different experience for me this year. I'm trying to find a scenic place to journey to and just watch Nature travel across the sky and give up a few secrets. I'll practise my patience, and maybe pray a little for peace of mind. I struggle everyday to see the *wisdom* in mankind. I look for a reason for being in everyday, my observations are alarming . I miss the world, I miss the sunshine on my face. If you ask me if there is a God, I'd invite you to see what I cannot. There is no God for me. I've asked for his wisdom, he clouded my mind with anger. I asked for his strength, he made me weak before my peers. I asked for his courage, he filled my heart with loneliness and grief. The beast fills my heart with hormones of destruction. Rage is my soul. Can there be a God before man? Not until he reveals himself to me. No one shall pass into the kingdom of heaven except thru me...and so on. - 2:50:36 on 7 Dec 97 GMT

PapaSam:RICHARD. What you are trying to tell me is that you don't have the vaguest notion what you are talking about. What has Miriam got to do with anything? I thought Jesus' mother was supposed to be Mary. Of course I may be wrong. It's your religion, not mine. As for casting pearls before swine, any pearls you may have are probably the 'five and dime' variety. They're certainly not the pearls of wisdom which the phrase implies since you are sadly lacking in that commodity. - 3:37:55 on 7 Dec 97 GMT

Grant:JAMES-- I didn't wish to make issues of my examples of acceptable generalizations. In fact they were a poor choice of examples to a theist. There is too much information to make sense of without generalizing. While generalizations of a group to which I belong that are unflattering and don't apply to me are unpleasant to me, I still realize that generalizations are unavoidable, and that I must use them myself. Optimally we try to make them as accurate as possible and never forget that they are only generalizations. I doubt that we disagree on this. As to the examples: I wanted to say "believe things without evidence," but that wouldn't be true from a theist point of view, since they believe they have evidence. I thought about "without sufficient evidence," but this is no better. Sufficient to who? Too subjective. Obviously sufficient to them but not to me. I guess it's a matter of how alarmingly little evidence we require of something we want to believe. This is getting too long, but the other two examples are generally true, IMO. But, I do think that the ratio of good and bad traits is about the same throughout the population regardless of religion. Something else must account for this. - 5:04:01 on 7 Dec 97 GMT

Grant:MARLENE--I'm short on free time lately. It is surprising to me that people can say that god is only an idea, and then say that it still has merit. Meghan's remark that everyone could be right is astonishing to me. I wish I had thought to tell her how to look at older postings, though. I think she missed some posts that were directed at her. I really don't mind posters like her that will say what they believe. It's the ones like you know who that demand we accept their beliefs but won't discuss them that I could live without. - 5:22:18 on 7 Dec 97 GMT

Grant:RICHARD-- Yes, it's admirable that you fight fires. I've noticed that while there's really no rule or anything, most posters use lower case for their own name, and upper case for others, but you do the opposite. Is there a conscious reason for this? Though you have been told several times that posting in all caps is bad form and poor net etiquette, You still frequently do it. May I ask what your thinking is behind this? You sometimes use the word "amen" at the end of your sentences. This is incongruous to me. What are your thoughts on this? - 5:44:53 on 7 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:GRANT- He uses the capslock because he has "guts". He's the biggest hero on this page in his wittle mind. Actually I find that Meg is a little vague on what she believes, remember she doesn't want to be "labeled". The one thing that I did understand is that she is a "religious pagan" and she believe that there is a goddess. I will refrain from offering my opinion on that! - 7:24:26 on 7 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:PAPASAM- Maybe Richard was here before you started posting but he's not your run-of-the-mill YIC. He doesn't celebrate mythmas because he says it's not jesus's birthday so maybe Mary's name was not really Mary according to the gospel he drowns himself in. James and I have been arguing for two years now. The arguments you've presented has been presented to him a zillion times and he still doesn't get it. James is again not your run-of-the-mill YIC. He doesn't believe the bible is god's word but believes in xtian morals. - 7:30:49 on 7 Dec 97 GMT

RICHARD:PapaSam and Marlene; You both might know a lot according to this course of the world but you are not aware of the names of those of the Bible. MIRAIM is the JEWISH name of Jesus' mother, MARY is the english form. JESUS is english, his Hebrew name is YESHUA ie JOSHUA in english. JESUS comes from the Greek IESOUS. - 8:52:30 on 7 Dec 97 GMT

Bill..:RON, Sometimes progress is slower than we want it to be. As you know I had serious problems with one of my sons for four years, and finally it all ended over night. I feel so good about the way he has matured and figured things out. Maybe there was a reason for it all, I don't know. I do know that not much can upset me now, and I even seem to have a natural predilection for---albeit not consciously desiring---stressful situations. I guess it's stimulating and exciting or something! Your posting on peace and nature reminds me of this news story on ABC last Friday where this acclaimed photographer, who had a death in his family and was experiencing extreme sadness, escaped to the Everglades. For years he has been alone in nature canoeing around the Everglades experiencing nature at its finest. He has become totally at peace with himself and the world, and some of the spots he wades in are so still that the beating of his heart causes the only ripples in the water surrounding him, as he shoots his film. He says even the snakes and alligator accept his presence. Everyone seeks peace and love in life and these emotions seem to be denizens of each other. There has been recent post here on proving love. These emotions are rooted in primary intelligent (id) mind levels, which are a part of our deterministic self. This objective and deterministic self (id) is tied to all of nature and seems to have authority over higher mind levels. We cannot really control emotions, to any degree, nor rationalize or prove them. Rationalization, subjectivity, and freewill are denizens of secondary (higher/human) intelligence (ego). When we indulge ourselves in, and interact with, the simplicity of nature (early life forms, plant, etc), we can experience and remember our basic early life nature, which brings us the experiences of peace and love. To me praying is a rationalization on a higher mind level. I would think that "direct experience with nature," without words, would be much more effective in our desire for peace and love in our lives. When engaging in sexual intercourse with someone that we have strong feelings for, the last thing anyone wants is to hear is trival conversation. ;~) - 14:35:36 on 7 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:RICHARD- I didn't know ya all downunder speak Hebrew. Your still incorrect as if your going to speak Hebrew then also write it. Otherwise I think it appropiate to stick to English names using this particular alphabet. - 15:32:07 on 7 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:BILL- I agree with part of your post that emotions are rooted in the primary level but I disagree with the can't control them or rationalize them. For instance say that someone very close to me died (a very strong emotional situation) and I was crying 90% of the time. Firstly instead of letting this emotion of sadness overwhelm me, it would be better to rationalize that I could cry until the cows come home but it wouldn't bring that person back. I could also rationalize that I have my own life to look after and I'd better stop crying and get back to work. Is there evidence of my emotions overwhelming me? I think so. Emotions are a fact of higher animal life. To rationalize them in order to keep them under control so they don't overwhelm a person is a human survival tech. - 15:57:52 on 7 Dec 97 GMT

James--->PapaSam...:Been married for 7 years now and I FEEL in my heart that I truely love my wife and I THINK she feels the same way. Proving it is an entirely different concept. Tangled or not, you have failed to answer the question. A question that has no answer that can be supported with proof. You beleive in something that cannot be proved just like the rest if us. Cheers. - 20:48:43 on 7 Dec 97 GMT

James--->Ron...:If you think accepting the existence of god and praying to god only in your time of need is going to cause some great revelation in your heart and mind, you are as confused as many of the people you have spent your life persecuting. - 20:51:38 on 7 Dec 97 GMT

James--->Marlene...:I understand the argument, I do not agree with the line of reasoning. - 20:56:26 on 7 Dec 97 GMT

James--->Grant...:I agree. - 20:57:08 on 7 Dec 97 GMT

James--->Bill...:Good to hear from you Bill. I am happy that things are going well for you. Best wishes, may the universe bless you and may the force be with you. Later. - 20:59:28 on 7 Dec 97 GMT

PapaSam:BILL. Now that you have clarified Freud's Id and Ego, how about explaining his concept of the Super Ego. JAMES. Your opening statement covers two different things. 1. You feel you love your wife. 2. You think she loves you. Each statement must be considered separately. If you feel you love your wife, then you do love her. No if's or maybe's. If you have doubts, that's another story. I don't believe you have doubts and I believe the question was a rhetorical one. As two the other part - You think your wife loves you. I would assume that if you have been married for seven years and she is continuing in the relationship that she does love you. However the only one who really knows is your wife. I hope you have many years of happiness together - 21:18:59 on 7 Dec 97 GMT

PapaSam:RICHARD. Mary, Miriam, Myrain, call her what you will. You still haven't answered a single question I've asked. Not one. And I've asked plenty. So, to get back to your cast of characters. How did Mary (or Miriam, if you prefer) get knocked up? You can use your own version of the names. Just tell me if it was in vitro, by parthenogenesis or just plain old fashioned screwing? If the last, who did it? god or the holy ghost? Well, well Richard. I have looked into your web site and I have read a great deal of it. It brings to mind that quote from Shakespeare. "It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury and signifying nothing." In my own words I would say it is the rambling of a sick imagination. But keep it up. Somewhere out there are people who will buy it. They buy angels of every kind and description. Charles Manson had his cult of followers who thought nothing of stabbing pregnant women. The Heavens Gate people got it off by castration and suicide to meet god in a flying saucer. I have many faults but one fault I do not have. I never underestimate the stupidity and gullibility of people. Now that I've said my piece, ANSWER MY DAMNED QUESTIONS!! - 21:44:03 on 7 Dec 97 GMT

Bill..:MARLENE, PAPASAM, Damn, I'm tired of shopping! I don't think that I really disagree with you Marlene. Any mature and rational person does control his actions and responses to emotions, to some degree. When I said that we can't control our emotions, I meant to convey that we can't control our initial emotional responses to life experiences. When we are insulted, we do feel our emotions. Emotions like Love and Hate are very real and very powerful. I see many very intelligent people, in my everyday life, that are prisoners to their emotions and can never seem to "get their ducks in a row" in order to enjoy life. Emotional maturity is a tough character trait to develop, as I have had to work hard to overcome some of my personal weaknesses. As I have discussed with Melissa here before, I only use Freudian terms like Id, ego, etc. in a general sense (macro level) for the purposes of discussing religious topics. Of course we only have one mind and there are no clear divisions between Id and ego. Remember the example of the "chair" being a closed system? The chair can be a chair, wood cells, or a vacuum (within the atom). Like "ego" it's useful to discuss the chair as if it were a closed system (macro level) when in fact it is not (micro level). The ego and Id are likewise not a closed or distinct entity (on a micro level) within the mind. Generally emotions, that are rooted in the lower levels of our minds, have more authority in that we cannot put aside our feelings, when someone insults us say. We do feel anger or negativity even though we can control our outward responses and actions to some degree. Each person's level of maturity or rationality determines how well they control their self. Of course, as I have posted here before, I believe that our mind has evolved according to the survival determinants in nature. Ego level evolving the creation of "time." The ego and superego levels evolving the concept of "God/God's" and "conscience." Superego (conscience) mind level is formed in early life by the internalizations of standards of parents or other role models. I am not a Freudian student, but do use his mind breakdown for discussion purposes. I hope this is clearer; it's been a long day. Hello JAMES, how are you? Long time no hear. - 0:16:59 on 8 Dec 97 GMT

PapaSam:RICHARD. I'm still waiting for my answers. God will punish you if you don't answer!! - 1:16:54 on 8 Dec 97 GMT

RICHARD:PapaSam; You are a fool mate; you keep asking the same question after I've answered; I told you Miriam became pregnant by the hol;y spirit, that's all. - 3:59:09 on 8 Dec 97 GMT

RICHARD:Marlene; You won't learn will you he, he, he... I told yopu that Jesus' mother's name was MIRIAM, from the HEBREW. you poor ole thingy ! - 4:01:44 on 8 Dec 97 GMT

Grant:RICHARD-- Shouldn't it be, for consistency, either "Yeshua's mother's name was Miriam" or "Jesus' mother's name was Mary" rather than some arbitrary combination. - 4:51:28 on 8 Dec 97 GMT

Grant:Why does the phrase "waste of skin" keep coming to mind? Apologies, Steven. - 4:57:49 on 8 Dec 97 GMT

PapaSam:RICHARD. I will quote your exact words as taken from your postings. 8:52:30 on 7 Dec 97 "MIRAIM is the JEWISH name of Jesus' mother." 4:01:44 on 8 Dec 97 "I told you that Jesus' mother's name was MIRIAM from the HEBREW". These, as I said, are your exact quotes which you can easily check. As you can see you are contradicting yourself. Just another proof that you don't know what you are talking about. Now to get back to the issue of the relationships betwen your cast of characters. You say that MIRIAM became pregnant by the holy spirit. Who or what is the holy spirit? Is it the same as your holy ghost? Did he create a sperm and did he have sexual intercourse with her? Your answer is a little hazy as is the rest of your reasoning. You have answered nothing. You don't answer my questions because are unable to do so. You have absolutely no idea of what it's all about so you parrot the words of your religious instructors who don't know what it's all about either. To use the phrase coined by the computer nerds: "Garbage in, garbage out." - 5:35:54 on 8 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:GRANT- Hey! I don't know but that same thought keeps popping into my mind too! It must have been planted there by the holy ghost! PAPASAM- Using the old broken record method of getting an answer from the YIC's seems to be the only way possible. - 6:34:17 on 8 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:RICHARD- BTW Mr.Smokey the Bear, Hebrew IS the language spoken by Jews. I can speak and write Arabic. The Jews are like the Arabs, they don't like English people taking the liberty of trying to put into English language an Hebrew word. It comes out sounding just as dumb as the person who's decided to convert it. Not too worldly are we Dicky? - 6:48:53 on 8 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:Speaking of Mary being impregnated by the holey spirit, did anyone ever watch that movie about a young nun supposedly impregnated by the holey spirit. Was it sister Agnus or something like that? Anyway if anyone has seen it, isn't it the bowels of xtianity? Speaking of bowels, I think our Joette is back from one the bowels of Canada, Sudbury. - 6:56:30 on 8 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:--->MEAGAN..I am interested in your goddess. What is her name, and what does the following of her religion entail? BTW, please try to keep the ad hominens to a minimum. - 11:39:14 on 8 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:-->RICHARD...your smugness knows no bounds. When you first informed us of your fire fighting duties, most of us commended you, and you treated it as an attack on yourself, proclaiming yourself to be mightier than we, as we were not out fighting fires. Well, as I said then, and as I say now, if we had fires to fight, we would all be doing our utmost to help. Instead, we have floods, blizzards and other acts of nature (not god) to contend with, so why aren't you helping us with them? I asked you before, instead of being reactive (as in fighiting fires), should you not be proactive (to avoid the fires), by praying harder to your god so as to avoid another visit of the lake of fire. What's the point of praising your lord once the damage is done? - 12:19:10 on 8 Dec 97 GMT

.:. - 12:57:40 on 8 Dec 97 GMT

TO BILL.:Are you the BILL with all the woman, marriage, son problems etc? Can you please back off with all this? Dear oh dear. - 13:02:40 on 8 Dec 97 GMT

Steven:Whomever posted the last post to BILL<<>> I am not sure, but I don't believe we elected any censor police, thought police or anything of that nature. Bill can post whatever the fudge he wants. Are you such a coward that will not even post your name. - 15:21:28 on 8 Dec 97 GMT

Steven:PAPA<<>> attempting to get an intelligent thought provoking answer from RICH-HARD is impossible. We have been asking these questions for months. He may post you back with some burning in eternal hellfire quotes, but he is pretty worthless for anything else. - 15:24:37 on 8 Dec 97 GMT

Carl:ANY: Watched an interesting segment on 60 min.about a female on death row in Texas, she says she's found god and her ensuing dialogue has been accepted by such belevers and now they ask that her execution not happen. Of such matters, in a local paper's letters to the editor, I saw one letter regarding the Au Pair gal that said, caucasian women apparently can not hurt anyone- or something inexactly so, but texans galore want her senyence changed so's to let her to live. What I saw was the believers of mystical things simply setting up a poster child. It looks like O.Roberts is also in on this deal, so the sale o'some snake oil is quite likely involved. - 15:32:07 on 8 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:CARL- This "get out of jail free because I found the lord" is a pile of bull! It happens here in our institutions all the time. In every jail. provincial or federal, there are pastors, ministers and a variety of religious heads. They take a quick course in psychology and then seem to have the ability to give testimony at parole hearing on how the inmate has changed due to him/her finding the lord. Although I don't believe in the death penalty, why should Sally who found the lord be freed and not Alice the atheist? - 15:53:42 on 8 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:STEVEN- I agree with you. There are no board police here and we don't need anyone appointing themselves. Sometimes things get a little off topic but we always swing back to our main interest. - 15:56:02 on 8 Dec 97 GMT

Steven:MARLENE, JOETTE<<>> Mabey you all can fly down here and teach Texans how to drive in bad weather. - 16:00:47 on 8 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene..in support:BILL- Although we don't agree on a lot of things, there is one thing we have in common, son's who decide to walk on the wild side for a period of time. I think this is a kind of "Billy the Kid syndrome" and after they find out the wild side has it's consequences they normally drop out of it. I rather have an adventurous kid that one that never wants to leave home and stays a perpetual child. It's a real tough time for a parent and I understand what you must have went through. - 16:03:45 on 8 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:STEVEN- While normally be have terrible driving conditions as well as -40 temps here (where Joette lives it's a little warmer), this year has been a real plus in Manitoba. For the last couple of weeks the coldest it gets is -10. It doesn't even seem like winter! We have only a couple of inches of snow also. I love this! It takes a little skill when it comes to diving in snow and ice. I would imagine those who aren't use to it would have some initial problems. - 16:08:17 on 8 Dec 97 GMT

Quake:Hello all. I am back does anyone want to ask any questions about Christianity, I would be gald to try to answer them? - 16:46:42 on 8 Dec 97 GMT

Josie-Anne:I'm just wondering-- what do atheists do on Christmas? - 16:57:50 on 8 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:JOSIE-ANNE- Like even "learned" xtians will tell you, Dec.25 is not your lord's birthday. Actually this winter soltice celebration was long in effect before the birth of the mythology of xtianity or jewism or islam. I don't call it "christmas" as you do but "mythmas". I have chosen to celebrate the holiday season as family time and goodwill toward man and the other animals on this earth. Xtians may think they invented this holiday but not so. BTW Merry Mythmas! - 17:39:02 on 8 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:-->Josie-Anne..well, some of us do just what xtians do...we exchange gifts, we cook and share a big turkey dinner, and we spend the day with friends and family. And we don't go to church, just like most xtians. BTW, jesus is NOT the reason for season; the winter solstice is! - 17:39:33 on 8 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:QUAKE- No further questions! - 17:40:27 on 8 Dec 97 GMT

Carl:MARLENE: It was quite a story, especially since that state loves to kill they nonetheless may make an exception in that case. The 'reason' is that that gov.has national politics in mind so he covets the bible belt Texas voters. These kinds of people don't do a lot of their own thinking, as we are keenly aware, and as the quack obviously exemplifies by his willingness to not allow thought on matters of his preferred mysticism. So the texan politico does mean to do other things and if that means yielding on this one count, well, why not toss them a bonz? - 17:41:43 on 8 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:-->MARLENE..you beat me to it by about half a second! LOL! (although my good will toward mankind extends 365 days a year, 366 days in a leap year) - 17:42:14 on 8 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- We must have been "reading each other's mind". If you have any ideas on how to get rich quick (legal, of course), send the thoughts over! - 17:42:35 on 8 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:-->QUAKE..truthfully, has anyone here ever asked you a question about xtianity? It doesn't ring any steeple bells for me. - 17:44:30 on 8 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:CARL- I was actually shocked to the extent of the bible belt in Texas. For some reason I always thought of bible belt regions to be in Utah, West Virgina, Alabama and other mid-west southern states. Only since posting here, I've come to realize the Texas bible belt. I think the show _King of the Hill_ gives as fairly vivid picture of Texan xtians. Sometimes I think Canada is far behind the US in a lot of things but when it comes to the death penalty and rights, we may be a little ahead. - 17:48:28 on 8 Dec 97 GMT

Josie-Anne:I know that Jesus wasn't really born on Christmas-- I always kind of thought they picked the winter solstice to celebrate his birthday because it was a traditional time to celebrate the return of light to the world, and Jesus' birth is seen as the metaphorical return of light. Also because when Jesus was really born (lambing season) was a time when there was too much work to do for a holiday. Why do you call it "Mythmas?" The "myth" part I kind of understand, since you don't believe in Jesus, but why drop Christ and keep the mass? Anyway, thanks for answering my question. - 18:11:06 on 8 Dec 97 GMT

Steven:MARLENE<<>> being born and raised a Texan I will clarify some things for you. If you are inside a metropolitan area such as Dallas, Houston, Austin, San Antonio you will find the normal range of culture/social groups that you might find in any city. However, the largest majority of Texas is rural. In some of the rural towns/villages you will find the largest majority of them are proponents of god, family, country, usually republican and quite illiterate. For Adams sake they all used to be democrat. This is the breeding pit of the ignorant. These people go to church three/four times a week and all their kids names are either biblical Michael, Peter, Paul etc.. or they are doulbe name, Billy Bob, Bobby Sue, Sherry Lou, Mrs Mary Lou Wrottencrotch etc.. Ninety percent of rural Texans drive a truck, wear a belt buckle, wear a ten gallon hat, dip snuff (male or female) and get involved in all kinds of cousin luvin. Usually the first sexual experience for the males is a coupling with a cow or horse (i am quite serious). So, in other words 'bible thumpin country bumbkins', or as my wife calls em hucklebillies. The point is that this is were christianity is the strongest. It is also were cults such as the Branch Davidians, The Rupublicans of Texas, Jim Jones etc.. spring from. This is where the snake dancing and strychnine swilling comes from. Now, you can go to Arkansas, Oklahoma, Alabama, Louisiana, Tennessee and find exactly the same thing. The problem is that Texas is as large as all those states put together, therefore more christian freaks. Christianity has always been the strongest among uneducated or the ignorant. Is it not true that vatican policy back in the day was to keep the peasents from reading so they would not be able to read the bible, because anyone who read it would know what crap was contained within the bible. - 18:28:47 on 8 Dec 97 GMT

Steven:JOSIE-ANN<<>> Do you have a copy of his birth certificate JOSIE? Where exactly in the bible does it say what day, month or even year that he was born? The facts simply stand that this mythological creature you call jesus NEVER even existed. In other words he is made up, as is christianity, the bible, god, saints, angels, lucifer, etc.... - 18:32:21 on 8 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene-Beth:JOSIE-ANN- I not sure why I kept the "mas" in mythmas but since the word "mass" has many definitions, I think I will keep the "mas" as a representation of the number of the people who believe in the "myth". - 18:36:16 on 8 Dec 97 GMT

Steven:ANY<<>> Someone send QUACK RICH-HARDS address so they can email each other and jerk each other off. Apparently somepeople are so thickheaded that they do not get it. Anyway mabey they can make each other happy. Isn't RICHARD single? - 18:39:03 on 8 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:STEVEN- It sounds so...so...creepy! I'll remember if I'm goin to Texas to not stop in one of them thar small towns. This is something we haven't discussed much here, the rc practice of not wanting people to read the bible. At least they had the respect for someone intelligence. If the people read it, then they would most certainly doubt. What gets me are these evangical types that "interpret" the bible. They like to pretend there are "hidden messages" in the bible and state that even if their god mass murdered a who city of people that, that particular story is a "parable". - 18:45:13 on 8 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:STEVEN- Quack should have Dicky's email address because almost everytime he posts he leaves his homepage URL. They likely can't agree on who's myth is the "true" one. - 18:48:43 on 8 Dec 97 GMT

Josie-Ann:Steven, is there something wrong with you? I'm not making fun of you people, I just wanted to know the answer to an honest question. And, no, it is NOT true that they wanted to keep the peasants from reading the bible because then they'd know it was crap. They wanted to keep it from being translated from Latin in order to keep the laity from challenging the Church's interpretation and thereby their authority. You forget that in the day of Martin Luther, it was unthinkable to question the existence of God. In fact, our founding fathers (here in the US) meant freedom of religion as long as you wanted to be a Calvinist, not what we commonly think of as freedom of religion. I'm assuming that yours was also an honest question. - 18:49:17 on 8 Dec 97 GMT

Josie-Anne:Marlene: I think that's pretty cool. What is Marlene-Beth? Is that your middle name? - 18:54:56 on 8 Dec 97 GMT

Carl:STEVEN: of the mystic's preferred ignorance because it follows that only the ignoramus types can be duped and this coincides with my view at least that theism requires a dosage of preferred ignorance in order for it to survive, here you may consider the Augsberg confession as it describes a god in which one must believe exists. What you read there clearly shows a god is manmade and, as you point out religious leaders of old required the ignorant peasant in order for the church to get started, it probably went along the same lines that associated USA slaves to masters and vice versa. For example Frederik Douglas's master once said "Learning would spoil the best nigger in the world. Now, if you teach that nigger how to read, there would be no keeping him. It would forever unfit him to be a slave. He would at once become unmanageable, and of no use to his master." So, what do these religious masters require nowadays, they require one to prefer ignorance over learning and all that it might include. - 19:12:31 on 8 Dec 97 GMT

Steven:JOSIE-ANN<<>> I have a bur in my saddle when talking about christianity JOSIE. I believe through extensive research that the Vatican did not want the 'peasants' to read the bible because they did not want them to doubt, becaue doubt is the strongest weapon against christianity. It is a lot easier to sell something if the person you are selling to has no idea what they are buying, and are already brainwashed to buy what they what is being sold. That was some crazy logic, but I think the point is clear. Yes JOSIE something is wrong with me. I am angered and upset with christians and christianity. I am angered by what christians are doing to the planet and/or world. I am angry because of the murder and death cause by the belief in a chrisian god. The bible is book of fables and myths that were plagerized and stolen from about 20 different religions. If you look at the contents of the bible, without faith that what occured within was ever real, then the book is laughable and not even well written. If you put your faith into the bible and believe that what occured within is fact, then you are a disturbed person that needs medical/mental help. - 19:21:29 on 8 Dec 97 GMT

PETER:--CARL--I saw that segment on 60 minutes complete with all the asumptions made that christianity=an exemplary code of ethics. Whether she was a born-again or not would not be the issue, if the penal system decided to release prisoners who convincely displayed behavior which would relfect a high moral standing--the standard should be set on that, and that alone. This particular person did seem to "turn herself around", but could you imagine if some prisoner declared himself fully versed on moral behavior because he discovered Allah, or Vishnu, or better yet some scientific or philosophical code of ethics ? No one would even give him a second look, and wouldn't even consider him worthy of release. - 19:24:59 on 8 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:STEVEN- For an educated person to believe that myth is anything but myth is an illness as far as I'm concerned as well. In the case of the peasants, ignorance was the problem. If ignorance is the problem, then all we need is more education....so we think. But then we look at the educated an see the same phobia. Maybe humans need maturity more than education. Hopefully that will come in time. - 19:30:56 on 8 Dec 97 GMT

PETER:--Josie Anne--To ask a question like " What do atheists do on Christmas?" is like asking what do people who don't believe in Santa Claus do, when they visit Santa's Village? Unless you ask each atheist individually what they do--the question is pointless. Just because someone is an Atheist does not infer a certain set of beliefs. Being an atheist is an ABSCENCE of a belief, so there is no such thing as " Atheist do ( blank )--anymore than saying people who do not believe in Santa do ( blank ) - 19:31:27 on 8 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:CARL- Good comparison! How does it go...you may be able to fool some of the people some of the time but not all of the people all of the time.... - 19:33:32 on 8 Dec 97 GMT

Josie-Anne:Steven, why are you so defensive? I'm not trying to pick a fight with you. Do you enjoy yourself when you're like this? It cain't be good for your blood pressure. And why are you makin fun of my name? My Momma named me, just like I assume yours did. Yes, the medeval vatican wanted to prevent the laity from doubting, but they wanted to prevent them from doubting the institution of the church, not the existence of God. You have to understand that our modern ideas about God the individual as separate from God didn't really exist until the Enlightenment. And everybody has to be held accountable for what happens on this planet every day-- not only Christians. Has it occured to you that it's *people* you don't like, and that Christians are just a handy target? The Bible isn't supposed to be fact, it's supposed to be a tool to illustrate a point. At least that's what our preacher says. Some of those people really did live, and they might even have done some of the things we think they did, but that isn't the point. You could use any text or collection of texts for the same purpose, but the Bible is traditional. And I think whether it is well written depends on what translation you are reading and how closely you expect it to conform with modern narrative standards. - 19:35:17 on 8 Dec 97 GMT

Josie-Anne:Well, then, Peter, think of it as a survey. What do YOU do on Christmas? And how about New Year's, while we're at it? I just love to know how people celebrate. - 19:37:27 on 8 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:PETER- As I mentioned I have friends from the Middle East. Salwa's brother has been in prison since he was 15 for defying the government. As with most Middle Eastern people he fully believes in allah and the ten commandments. His belief is allah doesn't get him a easier sentence though. I fail to see how the belief in jesus does either. IMO, if you do the crime, you do the time, no matter what in hell you believe or don't believe. - 19:38:33 on 8 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:JOSIE-ANN- My momma named me Marlene-Beth but I shorten it to Marlene. Like I pointed out in a previous post, evangical religions now pretend that none of the violent events in the bible happened. It's actually the violent events that have solid evidence behind them. Although "god" didn't kill off whole villages during the takeover by the nomadic war-tribe, israel. It was a fact that the jews did kill and pillage and plunder many of the more agricultural tribes of the time. - 19:48:09 on 8 Dec 97 GMT

Josie-Anne:About that woman who wants to get out of jail free because she's "found Jesus"-- I think that if anyone is to be considered as having turned themselves around to where they can be a contributing member of society, they have to be able to say "I accept the consequences and the responsibility for what I've done." You can't go around just letting people go because they say they've got religion or because they say their family was poor and they don't know better-- you have to accept responsibility for your actions and serve out your time like anybody else. Then you can rejoin the community and make an earnest attempt to live well among your peers. Or you accept the death penalty gracefully, since you profess to believe that since you've repented your sins you'll go to heaven. I have my doubts about the validity of jailhouse conversions, and I don't think there should be a get out of jail free card. I think the consequences should be the consequences, and if it's wrong to kill this murderer because he's "found Jesus" then it's wrong to kill any murderers at all, and you have to reevaluate the death penalty. - 19:51:50 on 8 Dec 97 GMT

Steven:JOSIE-ANN<<>> I do not recall makeing fun of your name. I may come across defensive but I assure that that was not the intention. JOSIE I was raised to be a good brainwashed never questioning christian. It may seem that I am attacking you because I am attacking the instituition or religion in which you put your faith. This is not the case. The majority of my family are christians and I love them, but they are still ignorant fools. The reason for my angst toward christianity stems from the fact that I am Cherokee, that I was raised for 18 years to believe in a lie. That the lie that I was forced to believe in was a large contributer to the genocide of my race, and many other races. You must understand that programming is my job, but history is my hobby. I KNOW the history of the christianity and the church. I KNOW how much hatred and death is and has been spawned by the introduction of christianity to human beings. You must go beyond what you are being conditioned to believing by your 'church' and study and research what you believe for yourself. I think that if you do research christianity, and the history of christianity, you will come to the same conclusions as thousands/millions have concerning the death cult of christianity. That is nothing more than a bloody mythology best left in the past. - 19:52:09 on 8 Dec 97 GMT

Carl:OPEN: The J-A pseudonym becomes more and more apologetic with every post. I think we have a slippery ol'eel here, enlightenment? So, what in particular must one close their eyes to, in order for something else to replace it? It sounds as tho'J-A yields the validity o'holy scriptures as null sets, hope J-A brought some good marbles, cat eyes are so boring that for them I play chasies only, but not a game o'keepers. - 19:53:38 on 8 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:JOSIE-ANN- In defence of Steven, like the war tribes of the past, the god-fearing Europeans violently took over North and South America. Maybe aboriginals were murdered and their culture completely wiped out by "god-fearing" europeans. Your pastor can't deny these events as this history is much more recent. How would you react to someone killing of your family and your culture? Steven is Native-American. - 19:53:46 on 8 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:JOSIE-ANN- That should have read "many" not "maybe". - 19:55:35 on 8 Dec 97 GMT

Josie-Anne:Marlene; I think I follow you but I think maybe I missed that other post. I never shortened my name because you say it "josanne" and I guess I'm used to it. My sister is Katie Marie, and she goes by just Katie. What do you mean by an evangelical religion? I know what an evangelical church is, but I'd like to know if we're thinking of the same thing. - 19:55:54 on 8 Dec 97 GMT

Josie-Anne:Steven, I thought you were making fun because you were shortening my name, and probably also because of your post about living in Texas and people with double names-- I'm being defensive. Sorry about that. I guess I understand why you feel that way, but it would be patronizing to say that I "know how you feel." Yes, Marlene and Steven, I have studied history and neither I nor my preacher EVER try to deny those events. I would never pretend to say that they are uppermost in my mind like they are for people on the other side of the issue, but I am aware of them. I think they are sad and horrible and that there must be an atonement, but I also believe that an honest interpretation of Christianity can help people of integrity to improve themselves. And, Carl, I know that you're talking about me, but I don't understand you. I don't think the Scriptures are "null-sets" (at least I don't think I do) just that they shouldn't necessarily be considered as literal truth. Does it surprise you that there are Chrisitians who don't think the Bible is the literal word of God? - 20:11:04 on 8 Dec 97 GMT

Carl:ANY: In your readings, have any read a site that refers the constitutional passage "freedom of religion, etc.c." in any way to calvinism? As I merely recall the list of those ol'founding father's religious affiliations I can't recall that religious type. I do recall that a good number of those ol'slave owners didn't think too kindly of the bible and christianity. I have mentioned before that their reason for adding that line concerned what most of the 13 colonies practiced as law in regards to chrisianity, such as death sentences for working on sundays. So if one of you would be so kind as to direct me and my curiosity to a book or site herein, that would be taken as an act in the combatance of ignorance, mine in particular. - 20:22:20 on 8 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:JOSIE-ANN- No, it doesn't surprise we atheists as many who post here don't think the bible is the word of god. I'm not sure if you understand my position as an atheist, I do not accept anything of the supernatural. All religions have supernatural qualities to them. It's not just xtianity that I don't believe in. Xtainity, though, is among the more violent and controlling religions. Xtianity is a "nicer" religion nowadays as it has conquered enough nations and now it can afford to be nice. Instead of force pagans into believing in this day, they use the "honey" of everlasting life. - 20:29:13 on 8 Dec 97 GMT

Carl:JOSIE-ANNE: I am Carl and I post here often and generally consider theist types very confused and unsane. I mentioned childhood marble games as your inscriptions appear slippery, nothing stciks to you. As for your religious thing it reads like you've just read some articles on apologetics. - 20:38:16 on 8 Dec 97 GMT

Steven:JOSIE-ANN<<>> I meant no offense with the shortening of your name, it's just easier to type. Anyway do you feel that you need to a "security blanket" for life to be meaningfull? Do you feel it is necessary to put faith into a being that so obviously does not exist? It is difficult for me to comprehend how an adult who studies their religion (not the bible) could put faith into it. It seems to me that anyone who puts thought into it will understand that man created gods to appease his fear of dying, or to explain off something they did not understand. In the past gods were equated with fire, water, sun, moon etc... Man could not explain these things so put a god figure in control of them. I guess for the some people it is easier to make like an ostrich and bury your head in the sand. This however becomes a problem when knowledge becomes introduced. "Ooops now that we know the earth is round, what do we do about all the people we condemned to hell and burnt at the stake." "That we were wrong?" - 20:38:50 on 8 Dec 97 GMT

Josie-Anne:Carl, the pilgrims who came here looking for freedom of religion were Calvinists. They were looking for freedom of their OWN religion. I generally think of the phrase "founding fathers" as referring to the folks who first decided it was a good idea to colonize this country. I have never run across a web site which talks about this-- I read about it in books and learned about it at school. It meant something different by the time of the revolutionary war, and it means something even more different now, but that doesn't change the fact that our current society is heavily influenced by the Calvinist forebears who settled New England. Unfortunately, it has been a long time since high school, and the book which most readily springs to mind is The Scarlet Letter, which isn't the best reference available. I would be happy to go to the library later and look some up for you, if you are really interested. The American Constitution has its roots in what went before it, and the phrase "freedom of religion" had been around long before it was written. Things like killing people for working on Sundays were what was meant by freedom of religion as used by Calvinists, since they hadn't been allowed to do it in Europe. And Calvinism is the name of the theory, not the denomination. There are actually a number of Calvinist denominations. Any group that believes that you are saved or not saved by divine judgement before you ever live your life are Calvinists. - 20:40:43 on 8 Dec 97 GMT

Steven:MARLENE, JOETTE<<>> hey if you guys want to catch an interesting movie that is vastly entertaining go see 'Starship Troopers'. You must be a sci-fi buff but even if your not you should like it. It is like Mars Attacks meats Full Metal Jacket. That is, if you guys even have movie theaters on the polar ice caps you live on. - 20:54:24 on 8 Dec 97 GMT

Josie-Anne:Carl, what are apologetics? And I think what you call "slippery" I call "turning the other cheek." ?? And I don't understand the reference to marbles, maybe because I never played. Steven, I think I follow you. As our understanding grows, yes, there is less need to explain things using the supernatural, and any religion which doesn't adapt will die. (I once heard someone refer to this as "religious Darwinism.") I am among those of the opinion that the universe works, ergo there is a God. I am also of the opinion that tolerance is needed to avoid heinous mistakes such as the ones made throughout history by religious and political institutions. I think those heinous mistakes are the reason why we who are Christians feel it was necessary for Jesus to die for our sins. More to the point, to suffer for our sins in order to redeem us as a race, because we're awful... It's also useful to remember that for some people life really doesn't make sense without some unifying theory, and that randomness isn't always comfortable as an explanation. And, I'll admit, sometimes it just feels good to say, "well, Ted Bundy was a mass murderer who tortured and killed more than thirty girls, and now he's burning in Hell." Maybe the essence of Ted Bundy really just faded away into nothingness when Florida executed him. But if he didn't, I'd like to know that there are some things so terrible even God can't forgive them. Marlene, I know you don't have trouble with the concept that there are people who don't interpret the Bible as the word of God, but something Carl said made me wonder if it had occured to him that there are Christians who don't. - 20:57:14 on 8 Dec 97 GMT

Carl:JOSIE-ANNE: We play marbles now, I picked out an Apologetic site of many for your perusal. I look forward to where you go next. - 21:10:21 on 8 Dec 97 GMT

Josie-Anne:Carl, I still don't get you, but I think I like you anyway. I'll check that site out later on, when I'm done with this one. - 21:18:26 on 8 Dec 97 GMT

Josie-Anne:Steven, why do you say that it's obvious that God doesn't exist? I realize that as far as you're concerned, it's stating the obvious, but it isn't obvious to me, and I'd really like to know. - 21:25:52 on 8 Dec 97 GMT

Carl:J'ANNE: I have seen data on those ol'boys the pilgrams, seems the number was 56 total and about 20 had some kind of religious affilation and their foremost concern was not religion but simple ol'entrepreneurism. As for USA history books, your views depend on which book you read and its preferences. In your edition did you ever read that A.Lincoln was a white supremacist? Or that C.Columbus was just an ol'slave trader, or that Cortez proceeded into Tenochitlan[sic?] walking on the bodies of aztecs that died of the plague, but not warfare. - 21:28:05 on 8 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene IMO:JOSIE-ANN- The fact that xtians believe that someone died in order to save them. The fact that life here is "lesser" than eternal life with jesus, the very same person that died for xtians makes xtianity a death cult. - 21:33:22 on 8 Dec 97 GMT

Josie-Anne:Carl, yes, I did actually know those things. I think the authors of my textbooks chose to leave them out, but my teachers and my extracurricular reading pointed them out. Since we all seem to be getting to know each other, is there a reason for your defensiveness you'd like to share? You're obviously very angry about something. - 21:34:42 on 8 Dec 97 GMT

Steven:JOSIE-ANN<<>> so your god, sent another god (jesus) to die and suffer so that people sins would be redeemed. I must say that this concept makes no sense. Exactly what sin did people commit that was so great that some god thought he needed to sacrafice his son (another god). How exactly is a god killed anyway? Here is a good one. Yaweh decided that only one family would be saved, that of Moses. He asked Moses to build an boat and put two of each creature in it. So, how did Moses travel the world and find a male and female for each species. How big was this ark that was supposed to house Moses's family and two of each creature. What about insects, birds etc.. If this fable were true, how can someone account for different races/species of human. So the belief in god was so low that yaweh decided to murder every living thing on the earths planet? This is a small example of how rediculous the bible is. How rediculous the beliefe in 'gods' is. For believe the christians believe in many gods, ie. angels, satan, jesus, god, saints, demons etc.... - 21:35:46 on 8 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:-->STEVEN..now, please leave the Canuck bashing to Adam! In fact, I am having fajitas for supper! (and I don't waste my money on fairy tales - Full Metal Jacket yes, Starship Troopers, no) - 21:37:34 on 8 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:CARL- It's the mind-set Carl. People who believe in the jewish/xtian/muslim god are of the mind-set that if one doesn't believe what they believe then wipe em. Anyone raised with xtianity has this "holier than thou" attitude toward non-believers. For instance how many xtians have visited this site telling us we won't be "saved". BTW calvinists belong to such nut-case churches as the baptist or pentacostal. Also, I know you spot worms very quickly, good reflexes!! - 21:42:17 on 8 Dec 97 GMT

Josie-Anne:Marlene- Okay, I think I see what you're saying. I guess I don't actually think of this life as "lesser" than that of eternal life, although there are a lot of people who do. I think there are also a lot of Christians who don't understand the concept of the passion of Christ. I read a comic book once that I thought expressed it rather well. (I was at a friend's house and don't remember the name of the book... sorry.) The comic is set during the second world war, and the artist cuts from the war to Heaven, where God is this old white guy sitting on a throne, and the angels are all around Him, and Jesus is standing behind Him and covering God's eyes with His own hands to keep him from seeing what's going on on the ground. And God says to him "I've been telling you for nearly two thousand years that it doesn't do any good to cover my eyes because your hands have HOLES in them." (I'm probably paraphrasing, but you get the idea.) People have sanitized Christianity and want to ignore the idea that Christ suffered unspeakable torment so that people could be saved, and that he's not just supposed to be some shiney, happy person with a rainbow over his head. So I think I follow you. I'm pretty sure I understand on an intellectual level your position as an atheist, but I think I fall a little short on the emotional level. But then, I think that might be mutual. - 21:45:48 on 8 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene..same old, same old:JOSIE-ANN- Why are YOU so defensive? Our opinion of xtianity shouldn't cause you to feel we are hostile in any way toward you. This is the "honey pot" tactic used by all the xtians that visit here. We piss you off, you wouldn't say shit if your mouth was full of it, so you project you anger on to us, using our opinion of your religion as a hostile offence. - 21:47:14 on 8 Dec 97 GMT

Steven:JOSIE-ANN<<>> every mythology, including christianity, can be proved to be man made. Without to much bs, every culture or group of people have invented their own gods and way to worship them. If there were one creator and one god then everyone would follow the dogma or religion of that one god. When the christian missionaries/murderers exploaded into South America, the natives had never even heard of christ, yaweh, angels or any of that garbage. ooops gotta go Ill continue from home!!!!!1 - 21:50:33 on 8 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:JOSIE-ANN- You again are talking about jesus as not a mythical person but someone who actually lived. How do you know he suffered or did not suffer? There is absolutely no proof that he lived so if he never lived, he never died. It's all a myth Josie. Your living a myth. - 21:53:16 on 8 Dec 97 GMT

Josie-Anne:Steven, the idea as I understand it is that Jesus decided, for the love of humans, to suffer for our sins. Some people believe that God sent him here to do that, some believe that God sent his Son to teach us and that Jesus, like all humans, had free will and made his own choice to do what He did. And Jesus wasn't a God, the point was that he was human like us. And I've never understood the Ark story either, but I'm pretty darn positive that it was Noah with the ark and Moses with the Red Sea, and that they weren't the same guy. I thought you said you grew up Christian; you should know this stuff. I hope you don't mind if I point out that you didn't answer my question? Marlene, don't forget Jehovah's Witnesses. And I don't think you have to be Christian to be saved. - 22:01:14 on 8 Dec 97 GMT

Carl:J'ANNE: no anger here just makin sure that you understand that if you want to really like me- beyond your merely thinking so, that I don't care for certain pretentions nor for certain imaginary only things. So far your inscriptions appear, still very apologetic. - 22:01:16 on 8 Dec 97 GMT

jaywilson (an a-stigmatic):J-A: Anyone who comprehends the Passion (it is, after all, a proper noun) by reading a comic book will in no way understand my atheism. - 22:05:56 on 8 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:-->JOSIE-ANNE..you are taking the word of the bible literally when you opine that jesus suffered and died because of his love for humans. In reality, the jesus figure was a political radical, probably with his own self-serving agenda. He was no different in those days as the Chicago 7 were back in the 60's. He was charged with treason because there are historic documents that show him to be a radical who encouraged others to break the law. The same happens every day in countries such as China. So he wasn't terribly unique. Someone just decided to romanticize his legacy, thus the start of xtianity. - 22:09:56 on 8 Dec 97 GMT

Josie-Anne:Marlene, well, it wouldn't be much of a religion if we didn't believe that Christ really lived. And, it is one thing to say "Jesus Christ is a mythical being" and another to say "your living a myth" or that I'm confused and unsane. Carl is virtually incomprehensible as far as I'm concerned. However, it seems clear that he doesn't like me (not just my religion) for some reason. If I'm going to know what that reason is, I'll have to address him about it directly, and the only way I know to do that is to ask. I feel pretty sure that you guys are all familiar with Christian doctrine, seeing as it pervades our society, but I don't really know any atheists. I know some Jewish people, I know some Moslems, and I know some New-Agers. I know lots of Unitarian Universalists, some Mormons, some Baptists, a couple Jehovah's Witnesses, and one Zen Buddhist, but no atheists. I've asked all of them the same kinds of questions I've posted here, and I've never gotten the kind of reaction I've seen from a couple people here, maybe because it's easier to make yourself understood in real life. Maybe after I've read up on the Apologetics I'll understand what the heck Carl is talking about, but if you guys want me to understand you (which I assume you do, or you'd just ignore me and not waste your time with me) you're going to have to give me a break every once in a while and clue me in. I have no interest in saving your souls, I'm just curious, and while it may kill me, I eagerly anticipate being brought back by satisfaction. Steven, thank you for the answer. What about the possibility of multiple Gods as an explanation for different religions? I have to check out for a while, but I want to say that I've learned a lot here today and that I really appreciate it. So long, and thanks for all the fish. - 22:18:43 on 8 Dec 97 GMT

Josie-Anne:jaywilson-- I know Passion is a proper noun, but capitals are a Payne in the Pittootie to type. And don't underestimate me-- it was a really good comic book. Really do gotta go. - 22:22:08 on 8 Dec 97 GMT

Adam:Joette, please send me an e-mail; I have accidentally deleted your last one, and do not have your address committed to memory. I have some baseball news with which I'd rather not clog the page. God Sux! - 22:24:45 on 8 Dec 97 GMT

Adam BEING an UNSIPID BASTARD:Josie-Anne: Unfortunately, there's a lot of that damned unsanity going around. Perhaps you could get unoculated or something---check with your unternist. - 22:29:09 on 8 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:I don't know about the rest of you but I really have no desire to be understood??? Anyhow, I hope Josie comes back. Sheesh! She hasn't met an atheist. Everyone else must act according to their relgious dogma and all using the honey pot manouver. What in hell are we atheists supposed to do without a honey pot manouver? Being truthful doesn't seem to earn us a good reputation, LOL! - 22:30:38 on 8 Dec 97 GMT

Carl:MARLENE: "Mind sets" dare I continue w/verbal exchanges with J-Anne? Do you recall how C.Drake began and cont'd to do so all the way to her final departure setup assorted means to react to any and all here? In my case I recall that she said she never knew what I was saying, no matter what or how I replied to her. It looks like the same could be happening here w/J-Anne. I will wait n'see where she goes and how she does it. Later. - 22:30:52 on 8 Dec 97 GMT

RON...--->My dear friend JAMES...: You picked up the "Bow of Understanding" pulled my arrow from the quiver of humans and missed the target by a mile. Please don't try to walk in my shoes...the pain is too great. - 22:49:35 on 8 Dec 97 GMT

RON...--->BILL...:I believe being with Nature to relieve our stress and fill our hearts with love and peace is a LOWER brain function...carried over from thousands of years of peaceful co-existance with Nature. Since we, as humans, have been away from this co-existance for many generations, we can no longer function as a society or as individuals. - 22:53:03 on 8 Dec 97 GMT

Adam FREAKIN' AJA:Marlene: You know, when Josie comes home, it's so good; she's the pride of the neighborhood. She's a raw flame, a live wire. She PRAYS like a Roman with her eyes on fire... - 23:02:09 on 8 Dec 97 GMT

Carl:ANY: Does any one of you here really really accept the position of borderline innocence and dittzy naivette of Josie-Anne? If that view is off-target then what is her game, hope she did not come in lookin for TLC, tender lovin care. - 23:18:09 on 8 Dec 97 GMT

Meghan:Just passin' through, but it's nice to see you guys haven't changed any since last Friday. Still the ultimate and final authority on what's true and what's not. What's a honey-pot maneuver? Carl, I don't understand you either. Maybe I missed something. So, what do you guys talk about when you go home at night? All those Christians who need their eyes opened to the REAL one and only truth? Sheesh. - 23:19:36 on 8 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:-->ADAM...you are showing your age, but Donald Fagen will be looking for his royalties now! BMW, did ya here that Lorena Bobbitt was back in court again? This time she beat her mother up; I wonder how she'll blame this one on someone else! Also, more legal stories just for you...I heard on the radio today that some babe in the States is suing some donut chain because she bought a box of "Munchkins" and when she opened the box at work, she thought the donuts resembled men's genitals. As Sakespeare so aptly put it..KILL ALL THE LAWYERS! - 23:32:26 on 8 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:-->MEAGHAN..you may not be aware of how to read posts that you have missed, and so I will give you instructions: after you have gone to the bottom of the page, hit "add" and the location bar at the top will read '..cgi?show=30..." Change the 30 to about 70, because at that point you will find a question I posed to you early this morning. - 23:35:38 on 8 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:ADAM-re freakin..is that the lyrics to a song? Sounds good though. CARL- Yup, it's for real! Right after you posted the question the post right after it answered the question. CDrake likely use to be an xtian. She liked the power but didn't like the myth. No matter, the control factor was there. MEG- I am home. YIC's are like wasps, pesky. I have no desire to change you belief system. I only visited a YIC site once( I was invited otherwise I wouldn't bother) and they weren't interested in any of my topics. You see MEG, xtians come here all the time telling about their lord. If we were into "conversion" as you people are, we'd be visiting xtian chats trying to talk you into some type of sense but we don't. I often wonder why you people even bother. Is it because by repeating the myth you try to convince yourselves that it's true? You'd feel if everyone believed as you believe then it must be true? I truly think that deep down you know the truth but your afraid. - 23:38:02 on 8 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene :RON- I how ole James does come bow hunting in my area!!! - 23:39:58 on 8 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:RON- Yikes, that should have read 'doesn't'. James sounds like he's doing alright for himself, now if he'd only give up that blanket.... - 23:41:54 on 8 Dec 97 GMT

Carl:MEGHAN: I refer to games, JOSIE-ANNE is playing a game here, perhaps- she might be just role playing. Whatever the case I'll continue with the tongue in cheek response. Truth! you see that here do you, obviously so, since you recognise it as a class and seemingly even give it a number, you are impressive. - 23:44:19 on 8 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene..with klumbsy keyboard habits:RON- Even worse, I see! That should have read "I hope". - 23:45:53 on 8 Dec 97 GMT

Josie-Anne:Carl, if by saying I sound like an apologetic you mean I make the supposition that there must be a God because there is a Universe, then yes, I suppose I see what you mean, but if you are talking about the defending your faith part and proving to atheists that your right, then no, I'm not one, because it doesn't matter to me if anyone agrees with me. And, Adam, I was quoting Carl who said he thinks that theist types in general are confused and unsane. (sic) Marlene, do you believe in hell, or is it just a figure of speech? Do you guys always wait until somebody leaves to say things that aren't nice, or do you sometimes do it while they're on, too? No, I don't expect TLC, just honesty and maybe a little basic human respect. If you guys really think that other people are so confused, shouldn't you welcome it when they ask questions? I mean, confused and ignorant people make life difficult, right? - 23:46:03 on 8 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- Thanks! Steely Dan. I knew it sounded familiar! - 23:50:27 on 8 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:JOSIE-ANN- Figure of speech. BTW you can check in here anytime you like. "Nice" hummmm... sounds like a honey pot word. I don't claim to be nice nor do I claim to be not nice. Truthful is likely the word. If the truth makes you happy fine, if it pisses you off, fine too. Makes no difference to me. I use "hell" as a figure of speech like I use "oz" as figure of speech. Both mythical places most everyone knows about. - 23:57:43 on 8 Dec 97 GMT

Meghan:MARLENE-- ah, yes, I see. We are operating on a somewhat fundamental misunderstanding. Pagans don't proseletyze. (sp?) It's against our religion. Actually, I should say MOST pagans don't proseletyze-- there's always exceptions. JOETTE: thanks for the tip. I myself am a pantheist, which means that I think that the divine is the animating force for all things. I acknowlege the triple goddess as a representation-- she personifies all aspects of life, from birth to decay to rebirth, but I don't actually think of her like I would a person, more as a multi-vocal symbol like Santa Claus or the scarecrow you see around Halloween. It's a useful way of thinking about something that might otherwise be unapproachable because it's unfamiliar. Lorena Bobbit beat up her MOTHER? I'm sure I'll hear more about that than I ever wanted to know. - 23:57:48 on 8 Dec 97 GMT

Carl:JOSIE-ANNE: No, for any to think departure means we can "talk behind your back" that is nonsense. The means for any to go back and read past posts is available to any and all. the scenario of "leaving etc." is hypersensitive and your imagination without content. I and many others here inscribe what lends to conversation and additional thought at all times. Respect? Here, I think you have to earn it - 23:58:20 on 8 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:JOSIE-ANN- It's not up to us to clarify your murky waters, it's your thing to do. Why is it important to you to "understand" what we think? - 0:02:46 on 9 Dec 97 GMT

MeghanI know:Guys, I'm sorry, I've been trying to figure it out. What's a YIC? I know what the C stands for, of course... - 0:03:09 on 9 Dec 97 GMT

Meghan:Home sick today, gotta go now. I'll stop back and find out what a YIC is tomorrow, I hope. Seeya. - 0:06:38 on 9 Dec 97 GMT

James--->Ron...:I couldn't begin to imagine what it must be like to walk in your shoes. Keep your head up old friend. - 0:12:25 on 9 Dec 97 GMT

James--->Meghan...:Actually, I am not certian but my best guess is Youth In Christ? - 0:14:47 on 9 Dec 97 GMT

Adam Spring Awaits!:Jo: I got Milwaukee, Atlanta, Tampa and the Yankees. Jays haven't posted. I imagine all this will happen over the next coupla weeks. - 0:31:51 on 9 Dec 97 GMT

RON...--->JAMES...:I could never have imagined it either. - 1:57:10 on 9 Dec 97 GMT

jaywilson:ADAM: Glad to see someone else saw Burroughs' dilles-d'eaux--angular banjoes sound good to me, too. The royal scam of theism is perpetuated by pretzel logic, but while the faithful countdown to millennial ecstasy, I'll be enjoying nothing but a thrill on the Argentine pampas, leaving my gaucho marks. - 2:15:09 on 9 Dec 97 GMT

RON...--->Josie-Anne...: I can remember when I had a better chance reading the stars than understanding Carl's posts. Hang in there...it takes a few reads to get it. I read your post and found it refreshing to read from a non-babbling crazy, save my soul, xtian, fundie type person. Most non-xtians here are quite burned out by the *drive-by* xtians who drop in for a few days only to terrorize us with vicious rantings from a bible. I'm neither full Athiest or full xtian, I believe in the findings of Zak Sitchin and the creation of humans by the Nephilim eons ago. I see religion as a handed down idea bent to control the masses. I've tried lately, to bring myself closer to where I fell from grace with prayer but, it hasn't worked out completely. I'm depressed, tired, cried out, burned out, unloved, and over worked. I was plucked from my life and thrown into hell. I know Nature (my God) has it's own way of ensuring "what goes around..." but, I can't imagine doing anything so cruel to anyone to deserve this hell. So explain please, if you would, why does your God allow such misery? - 2:18:37 on 9 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:MEG and JAMES- FYI, YIC stands for Yes I'm a Christian. RON- Are you still miserable? I thought things were going well? - 4:23:34 on 9 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene....yikes:JAMES- I hope you don't plan to come bar huntin with that compound out here! Ron says you can't shoot straight! - 4:25:16 on 9 Dec 97 GMT

Grant:PETER-- Have you seen this? (Sorry, nobody else may look.) - 4:47:40 on 9 Dec 97 GMT

PapaSam:JOETTE. Do not take the quote of our Bard in vain! You took the quote out of context. It's from a conversation by two unsavory characters who want to do some nasty things. Getting the lawyers out of the way would help. Let's not bash the lawyers. Some of my best lawyers are atheists. And let's not forget our patron non-saint, Clarence Darrow. Which reminds me of his opponent in the Scopes trial who once said "If the bible said that Jonah swallowed the whale I'd believe it." - 7:23:44 on 9 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:-->PAPASAM..I am well aware of where the line comes from. - 11:38:25 on 9 Dec 97 GMT

ANON...:...Gosh, I wish I believed in God. I'd live longer. Score better looking women. Be on first name terms with my bank manager. What a miserable life I lead. - 12:22:48 on 9 Dec 97 GMT

Steven:moses, noah whatever. I was to close to getting off work to worry about silly names. Sheeeeot! - 13:35:37 on 9 Dec 97 GMT

Steven:MEG<<>> you may not be an accursed christian, but you still are putting energy into worshiping something that does not exist. From what I remember from psych 101 the might be cause for concern on your part. By the way I have a 2 inch elf that lives under my bed that directs the four winds and can read the future in chicken guts. - 13:39:28 on 9 Dec 97 GMT

Grant:ANON-- Score better looking women? We're still operating on instinct, aren't we? - 14:01:09 on 9 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:PETER- Is that Ayn Rand's words? It's a very good answer as to why the yic's post here. When one reads this, one can't help but feel sorry for them. Of course then, they post and all empathy (in my mind) is destroyed. - 14:46:25 on 9 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:STEVEN- Your absolutely right. The majority of the time, yics visit and it's their religion we express our opinion on the most but an atheist is an atheist and any claim of supernatural requires concrete evidence. - 14:50:11 on 9 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene..:GRANT- God scored David the queen of Sheba, no? But they had to have been some kind of "dysfunctional" parents as Solomon seemed to have a hate on for women. Just goes to show the more one tries to control events for others the more screwed up life gets. - 14:54:12 on 9 Dec 97 GMT

Grant:MARLENE-- I have been reading Rand's 'Philosophy- Who Needs It.' I know that 'The Fountainhead' is the recommended read, but I have problems with the thought of novelized philosophy. Anyway, I strongly recommend it. I read Rand in my late teens and agreed with much of it but disliked her personally for some reason. I suspect that she had a strong influence on me whether I realized it or not. Gotta go. - 15:02:25 on 9 Dec 97 GMT

Carl:GRANT: I disobeyed, I snuk a peek, what a cold-morning jump start! "The choice between 'I know' and 'they say,' he chose the authority of others." That warmed me and put a smirk on me, probably for the day. Rand is clearly not recommended reading for any wanting a distinction of being well versed in the myths of any holy scripture. - 15:49:36 on 9 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:I was just reading an article a friend sent to me. There were a few interesting comments. We know that yics and yic congregations are compared to sheep. Even their bible compares them to sheep and god to the shepherd. Atheist have been compared to an animal as well, cats. Have you ever tried to control a cat or create a herd of cats? Some yics liken atheists as evil. Those yics stay, at least at arms length away from us. Many atheists prefer it that way. We can relate to that, can't we. - 16:18:25 on 9 Dec 97 GMT

Carl:MARLENE: Do you canadians have a police-like state in formation? In the USA National-news D.Rather ran a snipet on these police SWAT units that regularly bust into homes to arrest folks for anything from outstanding warrants to of course drug problems. The sheep types o'course say its "police protection". I make this reference in relation to your sheep message as I mean to infer that in or of such mentalitys, that some of us here may attribute to religion, also very easily becomes a stamp of approval for those desiring the likes of a police state. Of that report that was\is all I could ascertain. Religion of any kind is bad, be it personal or a collective at any level or range of interests. - 17:24:45 on 9 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:-->CARL..although the question is directed at Marlene, I shall stick my two pence worth in. To the best of my knowledge (and I watch the news 3 or 4 times a day, plus read 2 newspapers everyday), we do not have swarms of police officers regularily busting into people's homes. There have been two cases where the narcs bust into the WRONG house and scared the inhabitants shitless, but our police (RCMP and Regional) are probably less aggressive than those we can regularily watch on COPS on Saturday night. Dan must be trying to appease some sort of complex the U.S. is currently suffering from. - 18:17:14 on 9 Dec 97 GMT

PapaSam:CARL. Did you mean infer or imply/ - 18:25:34 on 9 Dec 97 GMT

Carl:JOETTE; D.Rather said it was but the first of a series so tonight other things will be brought to light. Of the cop program "Americas Most Wanted" the originator the host, someone of his was destroyed by someone the case is unsolved and some have said that he himself was and is still on some list of suspects. - 18:37:27 on 9 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:CARL- As Joette stated, I'm glad we don't have those types of "swat" outfits in our RCMP. Rarely, rarely do the authorites fire weapons at criminals or engage high speed car chases, or bust into homes. Again, very rarely do we have police brutality. A criminal in Canada is still a citizen and treated with that respect. The people who are shouting, give em the lash or we want the death penalty are not surprisingly the yics. - 18:48:01 on 9 Dec 97 GMT

Carl:P'SAM; Perhaps I could have inscribed that, I'd dig up some reports on Naziism, Stalinism or MacCarthism to show that "I mean to infer, etc." Perhaps the quickest example of these things is the Diary of Anne Frank. Of MacCarthism, here I think there was a movie recently put out that was about the hollywood 'blacklisting' of people, I don't recall that flick's name but that is where I was gonna eventually go. - 18:58:03 on 9 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene...:CARL- Is that right?! The host of America's most wanted, I think had a child abducted and I think that child was murdered. I didn't know that he, himself was on the list of suspects! I'm not really against a show like America's Most Wanted because for every unsolved crime there's a victim who needs to know that society really is there to protect the innocent. Many criminals have been captured due to this show. I think it's great. As far as Cops goes, I think it doesn't serve the public in any way. I was just watching a movie about a man convicted of kidnapping murder and extortion. The claims he was innocent right up to the time when he was electocuted in 1936. One of the horrific events of this execution, definately not excluding the barbaric execution itself, was the number of people who showed up to witness the execution! Unbelieveably barbaric! - 18:59:29 on 9 Dec 97 GMT

Carl:MARLENE: I have read similar accounts that coincide with your description, it has me wondering why you notherners would have a religious problem. But, on the other hand when I read through that site of the conference in Canada about racism and that you folks have vestiges of that problem too I was surprised. It is regrettable that this country has allowed these kinds of police units to form. It might be that softening thing referred to in that article\site that I brought to your attention a few days ago. - 19:13:11 on 9 Dec 97 GMT

Carl:MARLENE: That last line shoulda been,..It might be like that "mental" softening thing, etc. and here I was thinking about the article on- Nation of Cowards. - 19:56:15 on 9 Dec 97 GMT

Amie:So how are all my anthiest friends doing? Quite a while since I have had a minute to drop in. - 20:20:17 on 9 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene-->God did NOT "score David the queen of Sheba" acutally, the Queen of Sheba visited Solomon. And Solomon did not hate women, he actually had thousands of wives. - 20:21:31 on 9 Dec 97 GMT

Carl:MARLENE: For just awhile there, we were getting serious life and death, power and corruption, good thing friend AMIE showed up to bring us back to dealing with the unreal. - 20:43:12 on 9 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:The UNKNOWN YIC- Oops! Your right about it being Solomon and the Queen of Sheba. Your wrong about Solomons so-called love for women. Read the songs of Solomon lately? I know that there was some type of scandle involving David but I can't think of it right now. - 21:16:30 on 9 Dec 97 GMT

Steven:ANY<<>> the magical mystical Amie is back! - 21:25:53 on 9 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:-->AMIE..is antheist a cross between atheists (some of us here) and pantheist (Meghan, sometimes Bill, and sometimes Ron)? - 21:37:12 on 9 Dec 97 GMT

Steven:I would love to have thousands of wives. Can you imagine, thousands. A different one every day for five years. Of course I'd have to clear it with my wife first. - 21:37:16 on 9 Dec 97 GMT

Steven:By the way is the MEG chick a Wican? - 21:38:27 on 9 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:-->STEVEN..you probably don't have the parts! LOL! - 21:38:35 on 9 Dec 97 GMT

Steven:JOETTE<<>> hey do you know of any pitchers, the Rangers sure could use a couple. Can you believe they resigned Kevin stiken Elster. Jeez, WE NEED PITCHERS!!!!!!! - 21:39:42 on 9 Dec 97 GMT

Steven:JOETTE<<>> parts??? - 21:41:05 on 9 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:-->STEVEN..since my team has had the Cy Young winner two years in a row (nah nah nah) but no closer, there are no pitchers to spare up here, except they just signed Randy Meyers so the Jays are going to do it in 1998!!!! (again!) - 21:43:04 on 9 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:-->STEVEN..I was merely responding to your coveting thousands of wives. Do you really think you could keep that many women satisfied (intellectually speaking of course) - 21:45:23 on 9 Dec 97 GMT

Steven:They gotta beat the Rangers first!!!!!LOL<>LOL - 21:46:11 on 9 Dec 97 GMT

Carl:OPEN: Elsewhere, at a purported new Atheist site it reports assorted religious types were toying with connections of the kentucky shooter, atheism and jc again in the schoolroom. It looks as though they were unable to rally themselves into a joint effort, however, but that kind of development did not seem possible as I first viewed that event. There were others there to speak up on behalf of atheism, so it, that religious effort may now be ebbing. These people the religious are a skittery lying bunch who still, as some old pope once said, "by any means" will they have their way. - 21:49:50 on 9 Dec 97 GMT

PapaSam:Steven. There is an old saying that one rooster can satisfy a dozen hens, but six men can't satisfy one woman. A slight exageration of course, but you get the idea. If you're going to try it you had better find a friendly undertaker. If you wife doesn't kill you your undertaking will. (Pun intended). Which brings to mind the old macho joke - Is there a better way to die? - 22:51:16 on 9 Dec 97 GMT

Peter:--STEVEN--Any team who loses to the Leafs by a shutout should hide their heads in shame!! - 23:44:28 on 9 Dec 97 GMT

Carl:ANY: Heck! here I am waitin'for J-A, figgered she'd show for a series o'questions and questions, wonder what happened? - 23:45:12 on 9 Dec 97 GMT

Grant:PETER-- Getting back to this morning- don't you think there was a surprising lack of positive or even informed response to the Ayn Rand quote? I guess what surprises me is that even on the Infidels board Objectivism doesn't seem to be seperable from Ayn Rand, though proponents of no other philosophies that I know of are considered blind followers of anybody. Was it just me or did no one even speak directly to the quote? - 3:27:45 on 10 Dec 97 GMT

Len:So much for 'freedom of speech' on the Christian chats..... Got kicked off for pointing out Biblical errors! - 3:41:02 on 10 Dec 97 GMT

Len:I am learning to dispise Christians with a pathological hatred! - 3:42:14 on 10 Dec 97 GMT

I'm taking all my toys home!...... Screw the Christians......... Now, theres a thou - 3:46:12 on 10 Dec 97 GMT

Len:I'm taking all my toys home!...... Screw the Christians......... Now, theres a thought! - 3:46:16 on 10 Dec 97 GMT

PETER:--GRANT--Sorry, I didn't see that earlier post. That is part of Galt's 72 page speech in Atlas Shrugged. I've read it many times, but there always seems to be this chilling reality about it that I am positive will make so many people uncomfortable when they read it. She is talking about them, and they know it--and they try--and usually succeed deceiving themselves and find some way to deny it--but they know deep down she's right. However, its not how they want to exist in their lives. Blind followers, my foot. If one cannot recognize the cold reality of this quotation, I say they are following something else blindly--just like she says. - 5:05:46 on 10 Dec 97 GMT

PETER:--GRANT--Incidentally, the rest of Galt's speech pretty well hits the same note throughout. A landmark work. - 5:10:18 on 10 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:GRANT- I thought I responded? HI LEN- You won't escape them here either! PETER- Back to the speech. I thought those words were Rand's no? I haven't read Atlas Shrugged. I can't afford all these books! - 9:31:12 on 10 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:-->I still like The Fountainhead better! - 11:37:39 on 10 Dec 97 GMT

Grant:MARLENE-- I was speaking of the responses over on the Infidels board. I take your perceptiveness for granted. Not that I have anything against the posters there. They are much smarter than me. That's why I was surprised at this blind spot. - 13:10:18 on 10 Dec 97 GMT

Steven:PETER<<>> I would assume that you are talking about the Stars. Well yes they were just tired of kicking the crap out of everyone. The Leafs haven't beat them in 6 games so I guess they were due. Besides, our precious Madano is injured!!; pout pout. - 14:11:34 on 10 Dec 97 GMT

Steven:JOETTE, PAPA<<>> Just kidding about a thousand women. There is only one women for me, and that is all I can handle. - 14:12:52 on 10 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:STEVEN- That's because you haven't had the help of god!!! I bet Sol prayed for 1000 wives and this prayer his god answered (although I can't recall reading anywhere in the bible that he had thousands of wives). He suffered for it though as if you've read the songs of Solomon he sounds like Al Bundy giving a speech at one of his NO'MAM garage gatherings. - 15:41:19 on 10 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:GRANT- Maybe they didn't respond because some atheists see Rand as the head of a cult. I'm sure her intention wasn't for that to happen. Like Peter, I think she has some pretty wise comments on life but some people have decided to build a whole "type of religion" around her. As I posted yesterday or the day before that (can't remember), atheists are like cats and have a real aversion to herding. Maybe that is why. We had on this discussion about a year and a half ago two Ayn groupies and I must say they were akin to CDrake. - 15:47:21 on 10 Dec 97 GMT

Carl:GRANT: I asked a newage feminist type female here about Rand, she strikes me as well read but very well, weird, but for Berkeley thats just par. Now as far as I can tell of Rand, her ideas sound very convincing and in ways also very compelling. Which of her books would you recommend that I purchase first? LEN, the mystic xtians are exasperating especially if one trys to deal with them in terms of "their" choosing. - 16:14:14 on 10 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:-->CARL..it seems I always jump in when you ask a question of someone else, but hey, I've been Randie all my life! I am surprised that no many of you here have read her works, especially since many can site other philosophers, either ancient or modern, verbatim. I was introduced to Rand in my tender teenage years, and have always been akin to her philosophies, in that I find them to be great food for thought. While I know that Peter's favourite is Atlas Shrugged on the fiction half, mine is The Fountainhead, but if you have two hours to spare, you can quickly read through "Anthem" and it outlines her factual philosphies in an interesting manner. That particular little ditty brought chills to my spine. As far as her non-fiction works go, and there are many, the best to start with is "Objectivism - The Philosophy of Ayn Rand" or "Philosophy - Who Needs It?" (I think that is the one Grant is currently reading. The problem with reading Ayn Rand, has been stated, is that she had a couple of students who continue to carry on her legacy (Leonard Piekoff, Nathaniel Brandon) and so they are keeping her philosophy alive and kicking. There is an Ayn Rand Institute, but it is merely a profit making organization, not a recruitment centre. As I am on their mailing list, I know of what I speak. Boy, this has been long-winded! - 19:26:32 on 10 Dec 97 GMT

Amie:Marlene-->Song of Songs (somtimes referred to as Song of Solomon) does not have a scandal about David in it. Song of Songs is a poetic book about marriage, there is a small "scandal" but it is between the husband and wife not David. - 20:00:27 on 10 Dec 97 GMT

Amie:Joette--> There is no significance to "anthiest" just a misspelling. I do tend to have typos often. - 20:02:09 on 10 Dec 97 GMT

Amie:Actually Solomon's one downfall in life came becuause he had too many wives and tried to please them all. - 20:03:52 on 10 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene-->perhaps you mistaking "Song of Songs" for "Ecclesiastes"? - 20:05:11 on 10 Dec 97 GMT

Amie:I seem to be dropping in at a rather dead time. So what is the news today? - 20:07:58 on 10 Dec 97 GMT

Carl:JOETTE: I have heard of the Rand name always in passing only, until happening upon this site. But, when one is a fountain what else can you do if you have the answers to questions. There is a real good book store in North Berkeley where many rare and old books can be bought. I'll check there before these book sites on the net. If you ever get to bezerkely the store, if open yet, is called "Black Oak Books". Thanks - 20:08:10 on 10 Dec 97 GMT

Adam TALK ABOUT HOT AIR!:Nothing to do with evils of religion, folks, but has everyone caught this around-the-world balloon story? I think it's a freakin' riot! - 20:19:46 on 10 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:-->ADAM..on his next try, he'll probably make to the last mile, and then his balloon will blow up and kill him instantly. - 20:23:54 on 10 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:AMIE- I didn't say the scandal was in the Songs of Solomon but I do recall a scandal. David had an affair with someone's wife or something? The book is such a soap opera that I may be mixing him up with someone else. - 20:24:03 on 10 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:-->CARL...just curious...what is your profession, if you don't mind my asking? - 20:25:34 on 10 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:-->AMIE...lighten up! It was a joke! - 20:27:32 on 10 Dec 97 GMT

PETER:--AMIE-- are you an atheist yet? - 20:31:03 on 10 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- Thankyou for the advice. I want to purchase a Rand book. I have one but it's called the Romantic Manifesto (I think) and I just couldn't get into it. I'll start with the one you suggested. ADAM- Is that the guy who's balloon took off without him? News in Manitoba here:: A judge has ruled the "illegal use of pot" is unconstituional. The guy has epilepsy and uses pot as well as prescribed drugs to control siezures. He was busted with 71 plants and also with trafficking(sp). The trafficking charges were stayed and the judge ordered the cops to return the 71 pot plants to the guy. This bust happened in the summer of 1996. I hope those cops had time to water those plants!!! I neither drink or smoke pot but if alcohol is legal then I can't see why pot isn't. Maybe it will squash the damn stupid law. - 20:34:17 on 10 Dec 97 GMT

Athesits are full of them selves! They think no differant from organized religion. They are right and others are wrong! - 20:42:08 on 10 Dec 97 GMT

Steven:LEGALIZE MARIJUANA!!!!!!!! It is only illegal because the the christian fucks anyway. They have always felt that "If we don't do it you shouldn't either", then go out and drink a 1/5 of scotch and a pack of cig's. For that matter legalize them all and make the driving laws tougher. In Texas 92% of all inmates are drug offenders. The government will not legalize it because of all the jerk off DEA agents etc... The gov. makes to much money off drugs being illegal. Hell the US gov. has been traficing heroin and other drugs for years. - 20:42:50 on 10 Dec 97 GMT

Joe Blow da smoke...:-->MARLENE...I be movin' to Maneetoba so's ah don hafta go to da eye-lunds for my genja (sp?)! - 20:43:42 on 10 Dec 97 GMT

Steven:JOE<<>> it's GANJA!!! very good herb man. What be is what be. Ire man. - 20:45:56 on 10 Dec 97 GMT

Adam UP UP & AWAY...:Jo: I was a-hopin' that the unmanned balloon would make it around the globe, and no one would get credit for first successful manned circumnavigation... - 20:47:23 on 10 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:-->TO ALL..speaking of marijuana, there is an actual church in Guelph (about 20 from where I live) called "The Church of the Universe". They have only two commandments: 1. Don't hurt yourself and 2. Don't hurt anyone else. There sacrament is marijuana. The leaders are currently living in an old factory given to them by a citizen who did not want to pay millions to pay to clean up the toxins on the land. I know that they have a web-site, I will display the URL, as they are hilarious! They are in jail or court most of the time, but they get a lot of support from the community (comic relief!) - 20:47:55 on 10 Dec 97 GMT

Steven:And christians are cowards. Is there a reason you didn't post your name. - 20:53:01 on 10 Dec 97 GMT

Adam Smoke Gets in Your Eyes:Lighten up (Har!) Steven: Correct me if I'm wrong, but support for drug laws does not seem to be a particularly Christian thing. To anonymous analyst: You right and wrong. We do think differant. We are right and others wrong. Thank you for your input. Ladies and gentleman, that was Tarzan on the page. How 'bout big hand for great performer? - 20:59:20 on 10 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:STEVEN - I think it may be that trinity goddess??? Offer yourself too her and she may grant you those thousand wives. JOETTE- For real? I'd love to have the URL to that one! HEE JOE, MON- Da humidity's so low dat the deadlocks don even frizz. And is sunny here too, jus like de islonds! - 21:02:51 on 10 Dec 97 GMT

Carl:ADAM: The ballonist, according to himself that is, was said to be fairly wealthy so if he plans to try again, he must have that F-U kinda money. But who knows what they'd do if that kind of money was available. - 21:07:01 on 10 Dec 97 GMT

Steven:ADAM<<>> I simply stated WHY they were made illegal, not why they continue to be illegal. There are far to many sheep in this country that think that, "well drugs are illegal they must be bad." It is absolutely asinine for drugs to be illegal, and it is ludicrous that pot is illegal. I have never met ONE person who could tell me why marijuana is illegal. It is far less harmfull than cig's or alchol, the only bad side effects are hunger. To be truthfull, cig's kill 20 times more in a year then all the narcotics put together, mabey even 50 times. It is sad that so many in this country allow the gov. to legeslate morality. - 21:10:05 on 10 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:EH Joe- Speaking of da islonds. I got a Magogo today to give for a mythmas present. I don't know if I want to give it away now. I just love it! It's a little black gorilla that sings and dances to one of da islond songs. You clap and he does his thing and you clap to turn them off. It wasn't expensive either $9.99 at Saan store if you have dem dere in da eas. - 21:20:50 on 10 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:--->MARLENR..don have dem stores heay. But here be da Url for da Church of da Universe - 21:54:48 on 10 Dec 97 GMT

Carl:ANY: There is a long haired pacifist, possibly vegetarian, here who wants an unbiased unslanted "report" on or about what is marijuana. Might one of you herein know of such a site? - 22:20:42 on 10 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:-->BAD NEWS FOR ADAM and MARLENE...ADAM..the run away balloon has been captured in Algeria...MARLENE..it wasn't Manitoba, it was here in Ontario. So now I get to smoke pot AND go topless! - 22:38:17 on 10 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene...only in Ontario, you say!:JOETTE- Yup! I just realized that! I was listening you that YIC on the talk show this afternoon and he was talking like it had happened here and that the world has come to an end as well. I was just listening to the news and got the actual info. Nevertheless it may get rid of a law that is so terribly ridiculous for the rest of the country too. Now I'll check out dat site! - 22:43:35 on 10 Dec 97 GMT

PapaSam:STEVEN. Smart thinking. It's good to know when to retreat, especially when your wife is looking over your shoulder. Just hope she hasn't read "Lysistrata" by Aristophanes. ANONYMOUS. Atheists are different from organized religions. We refute their their dogmas and beliefs. The fact that we each believe we are right has nothing to do with the subject at hand. No matter what you argue about the disputants wil each believe he is the right. MARLENE. Don't pick on the Song of Solomon. It is filled with some beautiful and lyrical passages having nothing to do with religion It does not impress me as being anti-woman. Here are some quotes: "O thou fairest among women" "Thou art all fair, my love. There is no spot in thee" "Thy neck is as a tower of ivory" "How much better is thy love then wine" "Rise up, my love, and come away---" I read the Old Testament through cover to cover when I was twelve years old.(I cheated a little- I skipped through the begats) and that is what made me an atheist. I just could't believe the crap and no one could tell me where god came from so I had rached the age of reason. I had never heard of Robert Ingersoll, and Thomas Paine was just another patriot during the American Revolution. - 22:48:11 on 10 Dec 97 GMT

Adam PROSCIPTIONS:Steven: As a libertarian/conservative, I think all drugs should be legal, but irrespective of the harm arguments. I happen to believe that pot is quite harmful and habit-forming, and is an isolating rather than social drug, unlike alcohol. Libertarians, however, do not see why people should be protected from harming themselves. Along with legalization, there m ust be protection offered to potential innocent victims of drug users. I think the best way to handle that is to impute the state of mind in TAKING the drug to all crimes committed while under the influence thereof. That is to say, if it can be shown that a perpetrator willingly took a drug, he or she cannot later claim a lack of intent ("I was too high", etc.) to commit any crime committed while under the influence. The only defense would be to claim that one was drugged unwillingly. And now back to you, Mickey. - 22:49:01 on 10 Dec 97 GMT

PETER:--To Unidentified Poster--Yes, but they know how to spell words found in a fifth-grade spelling textbook.( I a presuming "Athesits" here is supposed to be "Atheists" ) - 22:49:02 on 10 Dec 97 GMT

Adam POLAR BURDENS TO BEAR:Peter: You know what they say: Athesits attract. - 22:52:24 on 10 Dec 97 GMT

Carl:MARLENE: I have meant to, but haven't yet, so, the cat thing versus the sheep thing, no such thing as a herd of cats. P'SAM, i always liked the Solomon stuff myself, JOETTE, i work for the world reknown institution of the Univ.of Calif.at Berkeley in its' Fin.Aid office wherein I'm the jack o'all trades and master o'none, this is only to imply its dynamic nature. - 22:58:05 on 10 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene...are we reading the same book:PAPASAM- That's beautiful? Does he address his daughters at all? I've read the damn thing too. How about this for instance "To keep thee from the evil woman, from the flattery of the tongue of a stange woman. Lust not after her beauty in thine heart, neither let her take thee with her eyelids. For by means of a whorish woman "a man is brought" to a piece of bread and the adultress will hunt for the precious life". I really don't see where you feel that no religion is involved. He basically confirms the reasons for the ten commandments. How about the nagging wife passages? I really don't think the board feels like hearing them all. Most atheists here have read the bible. - 23:08:33 on 10 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:CARL- What do you find inspiring about Solomon? - 23:10:46 on 10 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:ADAM- I tend to agree with you on the substance abuse issue but I wouldn't say that pot is not social. 95% of my neighbors here get together and smoke the stuff all the time. - 23:13:31 on 10 Dec 97 GMT

Carl:MARLENE: As you point out the ol' boy was relating himself to women as some men-told storys did back then, to me it was probably one of the few only accurate telling of things of those times in that book. While he didn't go to war for the likes o'Helen, the same kind of ancient value of females appear in it, its similarity is the tale of the trojan war. Inspiring, perhaps in a very primordial way, that may be so. - 23:21:30 on 10 Dec 97 GMT

--ADAM--Well said. The worse a pun is--the better it is. - 0:26:14 on 11 Dec 97 GMT

Adam HAVE YOU NO PRIDE? --->:Cat-tain Carl: What about Pride of lions? From there, I would dare make the jump to a leap of leopards. And, my mane man, I hate to break the mews to ya,' but the 1998 World Almanac insists that cats travel in clowders and clutters, and if I may take this paws and the end of that last claws, the kittens come in kendles and kindles. Formidable formations of felines, just fur you, hairball. I will resist the temptation to segue to the divine intervention by the Cat in the Hat in NY (a "ward" of head-injury victims?), and instead point out for page denizens' gratification my favorite, non-felonious collective nomenclature in the kingdom animale: A CRASH of RHINOCERI. Thank you "all." - 1:20:04 on 11 Dec 97 GMT

Adam ASHES ASHES:Marlene: That may be so, but I used to smoke all the time in high school (no pun) and college, and found that people are less conversational and interactive when they are stoned, even in groups. In addition, I have found that most people who continue to smoke dope into middle age do so more and more alone or in smaller groups. To be sure, much of this is observational, and others may disagree, but I have found not only that I stopped liking being stoned (apparently, I did used to like it), but I resent it when my otherwise intelligent friends smoke, because invariably they turn into passive pieces of plastic. Not that drinking is good for you, mind you, but most people are FUN FUN when they're tipsy! - 1:26:31 on 11 Dec 97 GMT

Adam AN ALCOHOLIC ADIEU:Now that you mentioned tipsy, I think this an oppotune time to shut down, pick up some nectar of the godless (6% hard cranberry-apple cider), and relax at home in front of the BEST TV SHOW THAT EXISTS...yes, the show that KICKSH ASSH...Goin' down to SOUTH PARK, gonna' have myself a time ("my uncle sesh that smokin' crack is pretty cooel").--------> |o) - 1:32:34 on 11 Dec 97 GMT

PapaSam:MARLENE. I said "some beautiful and lyrical passages" I still like my selections. Just because they come from the bible doesn't change my point of view. I separate the wheat from the chaff. I feel the same way about music. I love listening to "Ave Maria". It is a beautiful melody. I know it is a religious song but the words slip right by. I am listening to the music. It sounds like many of the operatic arias I also enjoy. and when I watch the ballet "Afternoon of a Faun" I know darn well there "ain't no such animal". I still love to watch the ballet dancers as they glide, seemingly effortless, over the stage. It reminds me of the time I took my own little girls, all dressed up in leotard and tutu for their own lessons. - 1:36:12 on 11 Dec 97 GMT

.PapaSam:MARLENE. I forgot to add - one of them is a grandmother now - 1:42:04 on 11 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:-->PAPASAM..you bring forth an interesting dilema. Much of the best seasonal music is religion based, but I love to listen to the Messiah, especially at this of year, and many other old tunes (Gregorian Chants), but I tend to tune out the message, and just enjoy the music. One can listen to "Rockin' Around the Xmas Tree" so many times.... - 2:04:35 on 11 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:PAPASAM and JOETTE- I really have to agree with both of you on this. I think it may be because the music stirs emotions. Like you Joette, I like the sound of chants etc. I also like new age music, which I listen to a lot. I have all of Kitaro's music. Like you, I shut out the words and just enjoy the music. I also use to attend dance school tutu and all! Kind of sounds archaic, huh? BTW PAPASAM- You've mentioned your children. I would imagine you've raised them to have their own minds (an evil habit we atheists have). Have they ever tried out religion and has any of them stuck with it? One more personal question and please tell be it's none of my business if I'm invading, how about your wife, is she also atheist? JOETTE- I absolutely hate that Rockin Around the Christmas tree! It reminds me of songs like Elvira or Wasn't That a Party. YUCK! - 3:44:03 on 11 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:ADAM- After being married to two alcoholics I wouldn't say that they were "fun". Maybe when they were drinking, they looked like they were having fun but really deep down, people with addictions are addicted to their self-prescribed medicine because they have some type of personal problems and I would imagine that would go with any drug. Yes, it's true. These neighbors (and quite a few are my age around the mid fourties) tend to gather in small groupings. I don't like being around anyone who is "spaced" out on depressant types of drugs. I don't know much about some of these new drugs. They increase a person's level of concentration, have you heard about them? Maybe I could stand to be around them?? I worked in a bar for years, it think I have a real intolerance for people who are only "half there" also a reason for my divorces. I'm sure though there is nothing wrong with the odd drink or the odd toke. My partner now, has a drink now and then and I see no personality change in him when he does so. I, personally hate the taste of alcohol and don't like the effect. The one other drug that I could get into but I won't is demerol. Had a few shots of that after surgery. I was telling the nurse that it was windy in the room because the door was swinging back and forth. Bet the nurses sometimes feel the same way I do about the drunks. - 4:00:07 on 11 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:ADAM- BTW the cat thing that Carl was talking about was because I posted that a friend had sent me an article on it. I was raised on a farm and we had at least a dozen barn cats. They are fairly solitary. - 4:04:35 on 11 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene..not to leap to conclusions..:ADAM- This in no way means that Suess has revealed any truths. - 4:06:37 on 11 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene..again only in Ontario, you say!:JOETTE- Thanks for that site! Yikes that's a strange one! I have gotten through all their material yet as I was waiting for a call from my son tonight and didn't want to tie up the phone lines but I'll finish it off tomorrow. I'll surely add it to my collection of "strange but true belief systems". - 4:09:32 on 11 Dec 97 GMT

Grant:MARLENE-- What happened to your "goodnight atheists?" Was just catching up on the day's posts. Was happy that Joette did some recommending to Carl, as I am not knowledgable enough in that area. - 4:16:20 on 11 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:--->MARLENE..the Church of the Universe has become a bit of joke in this area. We enjoy seeing them on the news, as they are often being dragged into court for some drug related infraction. Nudity is one of their main concerns as well, so when they go to court they only wear blankets (made from hemp of course) and they just look like a bunch of fried out hippies. However, the two main persons in the church come from very well-heeled families (one is the son a former Sasketchewan premier) and I think this is there way of tuning in, turning on and dropping out. Someone should tell them that Timothy Leary IS dead. They are going to be evicted from their factory because they haven't paid any taxes, but the citizens of the community do not want them to leave. They are harmless, and they do not welcome young impressionable minds into their congregation, as they want only people who have made up their own minds how to lead their lives. - 4:26:44 on 11 Dec 97 GMT

PapaSam:MARLENE. I hope you weren't married to both alcoholics at the same time! My wife was not an atheist. She was raised as a catholic. She knew I was an atheist. I spoke to her father who spoke to the priest who spoke to me. He told me he would ask his bishop about it but instead he went to my wife's father and said he shouldn't allow his daughter to marry me. I had just come back from the far east after three years and four months at war and I wasn't about to let shome shithead priest tell me what to do with my life so my fiancee and I went to a Justice of the Peace and were married. I told my wife that if she wanted to raise our children as catholics it was OK with me. It wasn't really important to me. I felt that if my kids had any brains they wouldn't believe that crap anyway. I actually helped them with their catechism and made sure they got their Hail Marys right. They all made their communions in the church. Today two are atheists, one an agnostic and one non-church going deist. When my wife was in the hospital I knew she wasn't going to survive so I asked her if she would like to have a religious ceremony, and when she said she would I called the priest over and had him do the job. As I read my posting I find it odd that I should be tellimg this to total strangers. I guess the anonymity makes it easier. I consider myself a fortunate man. I have four great kids, caring and loving and they all have great spouses. And when death comes knocking at my door I will know that my wife and I left them a legacy of love.I know of no better inheritance. - 5:18:02 on 11 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:-->PAPASAM..that is a lovely tribute to your family. And you will find that soon you won't consider us total strangers. - 12:23:14 on 11 Dec 97 GMT

Steven:ADAM<<>> from the research that I have done in school THC is not an addictive drun whatsoever. Everyone that I know, and I mean everyone, smokes marijuana regularly. Every friend that I have has their degrees, my best friend is a CPA, the majority of my friends are programmers, I have a good friend that is an attourny, and a good friend that has his Dr. in business. All of these people smoke pot. It has NOT been detrimental to them or anyone that I have ever heard of. How many people have car accidents because they are high, NONE. How many people go out and murder someone for pot money, or beg for pot money, etc..., NONE. Marijuana does not cause cancer. As a matter of fact it helps patients with lung cancer and bronchial problems. Marijuana is NOT the gateway to narcotics as reactionary conservatives like to believe. Marijuana does not destroy brain cells as was once believed. The seeds from hemp are one of the highest sources of protein. The fibers can be used for rope, clothes, etc... For pot to be illegal is as I have said not only ludicrous but stupid. On the other hand lets speak of alcohol. Don't get me wrong I love beer. Alcohol is the worst drug that man abuses. It is far more destructive than heroin will ever be. Thousands of people die every year from, drunk driving, alcohol induced rage, stomach cancer and ulcers etc... How many thousands of bar fights turn to death because of booze. Then we can talk of cigaretts. Cigaretts alone kill an avg. of 450000 people in the US alone every year. I will not even go into the death and health stats for cigs. My point is pot is relatively harmless, and if major narcotics such as nicotine and alcohol are legal, which they should be, pot and perhaps other drugs should be also. It makes me sick all the people that know absolutly nothing about drugs (from pot to ibuprofen) think because of gov. propaganda that pot and/or drugs are evil and/or bad. They are wrong. If a person wants to strap his arm, grab a needle, and shoot up heroin/coke/meth whatever in their own home, they should have that right. If a person wants to spark up a joint in the middle of a park and enjoy his day, he should have that right, PERIOD. No government should have the abilty or right to make the decision for so many people on what the can or cannot put in their body, PERIOD. Where did these silly laws come from. The vocal majority, the christian coalition etc... They lobbied for the laws 50 yrs ago because they thought that certain drugs were bad, so others shouldn't do them, with absolutly no proof. If you remember alcohol was once prohibited and look at how much death and misery was caused. THE SAME DAMN THING IS HAPPENING TODAY. There is no reason that someone should be incarcerated for haveing a bag of pot. That is bullshit. There is no reason that someone should go to jail for haveing coke. That is bullshit. These are plants that grow in nature and should not be regulated by the facist gov of the US of fucking A. LAND OF THE FREE, WHO EVER TOLD YOU THAT IS YOUR ENEMY. period. - 15:11:29 on 11 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:-->STEVEN...I agree with you that marijuana is not the gateway to harder drugs. In fact, that was a theme of a college thesis I did once, and it appears that pot leading to more potent highs is just another "slippery slope" urban myth. - 15:17:33 on 11 Dec 97 GMT

Carl:ANY: I finally got the Wheless book "Forgeries in Christianity" it was impressive- for me, when I first saw it on the net, it is certainly another point o'view of the xtian thing. To say that there is no god is one thing, but to see inscriptions of supposed 'holy scripture' in relation to things the xtian patriarchs said, well, the religious types should seriously consider heading back to the voting booth. Later I'll pickup the Wheless book "Is it God's word?" wherein he tracks the xtian god thing from assorted sources. The religious mystics, wow! and why? - 15:52:09 on 11 Dec 97 GMT

Steven:ADAM<<>> please do not take any of the angst that I reveal in my posts personally. They are not directed at you. I seem to get excited when discussing something that I believe. This on occasion makes me look foolish. So that being said I hope that some of what I said in my post comes accross with some valid points. - 16:54:31 on 11 Dec 97 GMT

Carl:CAPITALISM: Can you folks imagine why the USA would not want to okay a worldwide plan to cutback the production of dirty air? I am seriously at a loss here, what is wrong with doing something for the good of the all- this planet, on the news last night some politico at that conference said the US legislators "would not approve the plan" said it would cost the citisens jobs. Perhaps the jobs could become the future of doing things cleaner and a garbage industry? But, someone share or direct me to the place where resides that thought of denial. - 16:56:03 on 11 Dec 97 GMT

RON...--->Carl...: Just point yourself to any gas pump in America, there lies your answer. Americans are chilled to the bone if they're threatened with higher gasoline prices. The opposite side of this debate, here in the States, has threatened the public that if this environmental legislation passes our gas prices per gallon would raise $.50. Oh my gosh!! We would have to cut back on something!!! NO WAY, does that happen here. I'm convinced if you whiped the Earth of the good ole' USofA the world would be a happier, cleaner, less religious place. Just allow me to relocate first, please. - 18:37:18 on 11 Dec 97 GMT

Carl:RON: Well, perhaps ignorance, after all, is bliss? Or perhaps, god jc the h.ghost et.al., really will just bless this country and with a blink of their eyes everything will be made good and right again? - 19:03:46 on 11 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:--->CARL/RON..further to the pollution thing..the U.S. and other industrial countries can get around having to keep the pollution levels down (to 1990 standards) by buying "clean air credits" from other countries less industrialized. Therefore, if each country is allotted 5 credits, the U.S. can purchase credits from other countries who have little industry, and so the pollution rate will more than likely increase, instead of decrease. CARL..keep in mind, it isn't necessarily capitalism that is the culprit: for instance, Eastern Bloc countries are the most notoriously polluted and their mandate up until just recently has been communism, not capitalism. The true culprit is the individual who doesn't give a shit about the future of our planet. In a capitalist society, it is to a corporation's benefit to have environmental concerns as one of their main priorities. - 19:57:19 on 11 Dec 97 GMT

Amie:Peter-->of course im not an athiest yet, not any more than you are a Christian yet. - 20:01:29 on 11 Dec 97 GMT

Amie:The U.S already has the sticktest laws on pollution. According to the enironmental bill they wanted to pass at the U.N. summmit, countries such as India and Mexico would have been exempt from cutbacks, and they give off more pollution than the U.S becuase of their lack of regulations. The U.N. likes to make these laws and the U.S is the only suckers whoever obey them! - 20:07:54 on 11 Dec 97 GMT

Carl:JOETTE: That the problem swings both ways is a key factor of the fact that a clean planet is the objective. Prayer must be seen as either childish or too primative for public concern, then as for the communsim/capitalism matter they are both merely "T" accounts topped by either capital or labor. Neither really means to comply with the goal of a clean planet. - 20:18:40 on 11 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:-->AMIE..obviously you are not studying political science. Your flag waving isn't getting you any points from those of us not from your country. - 20:18:48 on 11 Dec 97 GMT

Steven:PETER<<>> notice that she said yet. Anyway pollution will be hard to overcome because the majority of people can not see it affect them. What I mean is the rate at which the planet is being destroyed is not fast enough for alot of people to see. They believe that the world is so vast that their actions will not change anything. I agree with JOETTE in that it is the individuals responsibility, even the corp. exec for Exxon. You noticed how concerned people were when the threat of nuclear war was upon them. This to the majority of people could see the immediate destructive values of a nuclear war. - 20:22:41 on 11 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:-->CARL...remember, the environment is a relatively new concern for corporations. It may not happen in this generation, but in the next, it will become a major priority. In fact, nowadays you can see such propaganda on television wherein lumber companies talk about reforestation projects, mining companies speak first and foremost about what they are doing to lessen the toxic emissions etc., so more and more people will start judging the ethics of these companies before partaking of their products. Suggested reading "Capitalism - The Unknown Ideal" by Ayn Rand, which outlines the philisophical implications of capitalism and addressed the misnomers of same. - 20:24:46 on 11 Dec 97 GMT

Carl:JOETTE: Thanks for the recommendation, where does her book fit in realtion to A.Smith or K.Marx? Having read both has me viewing either in terms of the "T" account thing I mention above. - 20:32:33 on 11 Dec 97 GMT

PETER:--CARL--I agree with Joette. The Eastern Bloc, by their thirst for attempting to show the world their system was superior--failed miserably, and polluted their environment to extremes that would be unthinkable in the free , capitalist world. In fact, the cleanest environments in the world are the ones with the freest capitalism. A freer ecomony means a better and stronger economy--which means a higher standard of living. When one enjoys a higher standard of living, they don't want to live in filth, and a higher awareness of clean surroundings--which we have started to see in the past 20 years or so.. In the end, I would say due to these factors--capitalism the best deterrent against pollution. - 20:39:40 on 11 Dec 97 GMT

Carl:PETER: Golly, I'm almost swelled-up w\pride but then I recalled the nearby shell/arco/chevron refineries that have destroyed all marine life near the refineries, or the regularly occuring times of strange odors in the entire north bay area or the buried wastes that sometimes break open and run into the bay. Rarely do these occurences make local news, except for reports available, per the freedom of info.act, but these are not known or made known to the public at large. I gotta withhold my yea, on this. - 21:02:41 on 11 Dec 97 GMT

Steven:PETER<<>> I am with CARL on this one. Capitalism is not any better than Communism when it comes to polution. All you have to do is go to a local river and see that no life exists in the rivers here. If life does exist it is usally three eyed fish, or crawfish with ten legs etc... Big business is only concerned with money not the enviroment. Capitalism is still all about greed. - 21:28:07 on 11 Dec 97 GMT

PETER:--CARL--It is unfortunate what that refinery did, and of course it would be embarassingly naive for me to assume these things do not happen. However, think what would happen if that would have occored under a non-capitalist nation? The public outcry would be there, but since such governments are not the "servant of the people" the cleaning up of that site would be done at the whim of the goverment/dictator--so the action taken would be at their mercy. However that nearby refinery was discovered polluting its environment, and if nothing has been done about it yet, I'm sure there will be something done about it soon. The citizens find it unacceptable, Chevron's reputation would be tarnished, if nothing is done--its in their best interest to do something about it--just from a profit standpoint. AND since the government is accountable to the community, it is also in their best interest to take the necessary action. Incidents such as these will be seen less and less in a free capitalist society, and the non-capitalist nations such as China, Cuba will lag years and years behind. ( Althought here in now a city in China "moving a mountain" to allow breezes to flow through a very heavily air-polluted city!) - 21:28:41 on 11 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:-->STEVEN..au contraire mon ami. Take a look at Russia nowadays, and you will think you live somewhere over the rainbow. Yes, industrial waste has been a problem, but it is becoming less of a problem because corporations are being held accountable now. Not many years ago, they weren't. Don't be such a naysayer. Things are getting better, and they will continue to get better. As I stated, it is up to the individual, but again, that could mean a corporation or a consumer. If you know of a company that is dedicated to destroying the earth for sake of a healthy bottom line, then don't use their products. And then you tell two friends, and they'll tell two friends, and so on and so on and so on. - 21:41:39 on 11 Dec 97 GMT

Carl:PETER: Don't forget now, I love you through and through, but gov't and accountable, that kind of relation, well, Uncle Sam has these outdoor open air levied lakes wherein radioactive water is contained in the southwest. Awhile back the levees broke, emptied out over the desert and finally drained into the colorado river. Nothing was done to warn or study or anything, one repot attributed that lack of action to the maybe that it took place mainly on the Navajo Indian reservation. We may wonder how different that was from the Soviet thing a few years ago, - 21:48:06 on 11 Dec 97 GMT

PETER:--CARL--the same has happened in one of our provinces, but the government is cleaning it up. If you ever have the chance to see Canadian news, there is often stories about protests against clear cutting old forests, etc., so maybe as a nation we keep our government more accountable than what the U.S. is currently experiencing. - 22:49:30 on 11 Dec 97 GMT

Carl:OPEN: Perhaps one may be able to make out that like any religion is any gov't, it too is just manmade. And, as JOETTE ponted out to AMIE, flag wavin'wins over few, but once things as religion- which is but only a handy excuse, are properly viewed as only an excuse then good things can happen; IMHO. - 22:56:46 on 11 Dec 97 GMT

James--->PapaSam...:Makes you wonder if these great kids might see things a bit differently if raised from the start with the same atheist ideology they have now? - 1:18:41 on 12 Dec 97 GMT

James--->Ron...:By all means, please vacate. The USA does not need citizens with your attitude. Your just trying to kiss up to all the Canadians....without realizing your loss of credibility. Your comments indicate a complete insensitivity and total ignorance of the price Americans have paid to give the word freedom value. Perhaps Calgary is a good place for you. - 2:11:14 on 12 Dec 97 GMT

James--->Carl...:Why are you so ignorant of the fact the the USA has lead the world in enviromental cleanup, both in dollars and results? - 2:14:37 on 12 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:--->JAMES..how the heck is Ron trying to kiss up to "the Canadians"? - 3:13:38 on 12 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:-->JAMES...you make me sick. The propaganda you just spewed is as believable as what you learn in your church. Get thee off your high horse. It is only Americans that think they are "god's" gift to the world. And yes, the U.S. has led the world in financial resources to clean up their country, because they have the biggest messes to clean up! You are a low life bigot! - 3:16:58 on 12 Dec 97 GMT

PETER:--JAMES--For the last few years, the U.N. has picked Canada as the best country to live in the whole wide world.( Or was this earth-shattering news downplayed in the U.S, because THEY weren't #1? ) Would it be so bad for someone who does not live in Canada--to want to live in Canada? - 3:53:42 on 12 Dec 97 GMT

Grant:JOETTE-- PETER-- Why don't we get any calm rational xtians to talk with? I was hoping James was one. BTW, if you like capitalism you should like the U.S. Are we not capitalistier than thou? :-) - 4:34:38 on 12 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:HI GRANT- I know, I've forgotten to say goodnight haven't I. Sorry! PAPASAM- Thankyou! I think many of us here know each other better than our own friends know each other. Only thoughts and conversation is shared here. No physical distractions. The atheists I have gotten to know here are the only true atheists I know. - 4:49:29 on 12 Dec 97 GMT

Grant:HELLO MARLENE-- I was considering taking up the goodnights in your stead, but it wouldn't be the same. I've met a few atheists but never really discussed beliefs in depth. I had some misconceptions about atheists before stumbling accross this board, mainly I didn't know they came in flavors. - 5:02:01 on 12 Dec 97 GMT

Grant:Oops- across. Pity the poor soul who can think of only one way to spell a word. - 5:05:13 on 12 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene...see it didn't take James long to make himself unwelcome again!:GRANT- James-zaa is a old poster. Not as old as me, mind you, but an old one. Also unbelieveably Ron keeps the guy as a personal friend! RON- Your welcome here in Canada anytime, just don't bring pip squeak James with you. JAMES- Do you think we'd want a YIC like you to kiss up to us? I THINK NOT! We might end up with something that is a pain in the ass like yicitis, eewu! GOODNIGHT ATHEISTS! - 5:09:50 on 12 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:GRANT- Since someone is around on the board I'll stay a little while. Yes, what is interesting about atheists is that they only have one main thing in common, they are earth based and like it. - 5:12:59 on 12 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene..where are the rest of the yic-yucks?:Hummm...we haven't heard from Dicky for awhile. Maybe he's out kick boxing with the kangaroos between flare-ups. What a hero! - 5:15:45 on 12 Dec 97 GMT

Grant:MARLENE-- Remember 'The Demonic Males?' I ran across an article about this that gives a couple of more book titles, 'Bonobo: The Forgotten Ape' and 'Good Natured: The Origins of Right and Wrong in Humans and Other Animals.' They sound good to me. Have you heard of them? - 5:23:04 on 12 Dec 97 GMT

PapaSam:ALL. Man is his own worst enemy. Whether the primitive farmer cutting down trees in the rain forest for farming land, which, after a few short years is no longer arable, or man with his fossil or nuclear fuels. JOETTE. It's quite a comfort to me and most flattering to know that the nations of the world are bargaining with each other to see which one is going to pollute the air I breathe.In the long run the only thing that drives the big shots to do anything about cleaning up the mess is self interest. It has finally dawned on them that their own children and grandchildren will have to live in it. Another thing we haven't brought up as yet is people pollution. We have almost six billion people on earth and still growing. But the holy rollers don't favor birth control. It's their belief that the kid should be born and then let him starve to death. JAMES. Do I feel that my kids would have turned out any differently had they been raised as atheists? No, I don't think so. If you're trying to imply that learning to repeat a religious mantra or catechism by rote has any importance in molding kids' characters you're way off base. My kids were all Air Force brats, born and raised while I was in the Air Force. We travelled extensively, both here and abroad. What we gave them was love and care and the knowledge that we were there for them at all times.There were times when I had to be away for extended periods of time and my wife had to be both mother and father. I think the example we set for them of mutual love and respect and trust is what helped mold their character. I am proud of each and every one of my four kids. And they're not even going to read this posting! - 6:26:59 on 12 Dec 97 GMT

James--->Joette,Marlene,Grant:The only reason I am unwelcome is that I say things that ring truth in your mind. Hearing and accepting the truth is a difficult concept for many people. This is illustrated by the lack of substantial arguementation toward my points while an increased level of personel attacks are displayed by those who are unable to hear the truth, much less deal with it. The comment Ron made about the world being a better place if the USA where wiped off of it makes me, and anybody else with half a brain, sick. Joette, you should take a pill. And, someday when you folks have real friends, you will learn that you can speak frankly, openly and honestly. Much the way Ron and I have for many years. Finally, Canada, where all of America's gutless flee, is at the bottom of my list of places I would want to live or even visit. One other point, the USA has lead the world in supplying other countries with funds and means to clean up their messes as well. Get real people. - 13:12:34 on 12 Dec 97 GMT

Grant:JAMES-- So theirs are "personal attacks" while yours are "points?" - 13:28:56 on 12 Dec 97 GMT

Steven:JOETTE<<>> the sky is falling the sky is falling!!!!!! - 13:48:39 on 12 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:--->JAMES...it may be truth in your mind, but not in mine. And thank you for your medical advice. The only truth I see in any of your posts is that you are a blind follower of a myth, that you are a bigot, and that you know very little of what transpires outside the borders of the United States. If you are only fed propaganda, you will only quote propaganda. While I take my jagged little pill, may I suggest a lobotomy for yourself? - 13:50:31 on 12 Dec 97 GMT

PETER:--JAMES--Just so I, and maybe some others here start taking these wild stabs in the dark, why don't you briefly list us all these "truths" for us once again. - 13:56:42 on 12 Dec 97 GMT

Steven:JAMES<<>> The US is simply another empire, it will eventually fall. There were many people in the past who extolled the greatness of Rome. It sure is funny that we supply other countries with anything with a national debt beyond counting, were is it now somewhere in the trillions. It seems other countries are sending us funds. Your wonderfull US is number 15 in the world in education. That is far behind Candada. The US gov. believes that it has to stick is nose in other countries business and therfore kills off a portion of our youth every 5 to 10 years. I mean come on the war against Iraq, or the Desert Joke, was a war all about money and greed. Lets make a list Panama, Grenada, Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Cuba etc.. just a list of wars were the US needed to drop some surplus bombs. Then you come to the mighty US deciding to drop 2 Nuclear weapons on Japan a country the size of Oklahoma. That was mighty and brave of the US don't you think JAMES. Let me see, lets kill half a million civilians after the Emperor had already decided to surrender, just for a test to see if the work. The US has destroyed 98% of all the natural forests and woodlands. The US is not a leader in anything but greed and stupidity. JAMES there is a reason that every country on the planet hates us or is scared of us. Because we meddle in their politics and if we don't like them we drop a bomb on 'em. Similar to a bully picking on the skinny kid for milk money. Oh well the diatribe is over, but you sound like a jerk, IMO. - 14:07:05 on 12 Dec 97 GMT

Steven:JAMES<<>> I guess you could compare quit easily the US to the christian faith. If you don't believe as we do then we will kill you. - 14:10:10 on 12 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:-->STEVEN...I guess you won't be running for political office soon???? I liked your analogy of the U.S. being like xtianity. May I quote you on that? And for fun today, let's talk about something that makes you happy, okay? - 14:29:34 on 12 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:-->GRANT..actually, I have been accused of being more socialist than capitalist, however, I have recently been forced to sit back and ponder where my true political leanings lie, and I have discovered that capitalism, in its pure form, is not a bad thing. If a person works hard, then they should reap the rewards of their labour. Now, I know I am going to get it from Ron, as we have had this argument before. - 14:33:41 on 12 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE and GRANT- Remember I was telling you about the show _King of the Hill_? James reminds of Dale. - 14:42:19 on 12 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:STEVEN- I personally don't hate the US as it is also full of people like the atheists on this discussion but your right, they do involve themselves in every other country's buisness like the gang leader of a bully gang. I also agree that many people in foreign countries do hate the US and are afraid. I didn't get to read the posts yesterday until late last night. Canada does have some of the strictest enviromental laws in the world and I'm happy to say that our children will be better off for it. One of the contributing peoples to the enviromental laws in Manitoba are our aboriginal people. Thanks to them, they've made sure that our lakes are recovering and reforestry is in place. - 14:48:54 on 12 Dec 97 GMT

Steven:JOETTE<<>> it's been a tough week for me, my son's one year birthday would have been on Sunday. If I seem overbearing I'm just letting off some stress. I am happy that the Univ. of Texas fired Macovic and hired a real coach. I am happy that the Dallas Stars are kicking the keee-rud out of everyone. I am less than happy that the Cowboy's bite the big one this year, good by Mr Swizter, this makes me happy. My wife finally graduates this semester and goes on to her inturnship for a year, praise the loooord. The Rangers are takeing the cheap way out and won't spend any money for a pitcher, jeeeez. My Ulitma Online character just reached master swordsman. I just got my $5 copy of Quake II. My wife picked up a bottle of Petrone and we are having friends over for a good drunk tonight. Bar-b-que, tequila and guiness stout Amen. IT IS SNOWING IN TEXAS. Can you believe it. The snow will not stick but it looks cool, and feels in season. I finally recieved my ISDN so much the better. I am finishing the 4th book in the gunslinger series by Mr King, good book by the way. hI just finished some code for work that will make our gui's respond a little better useing Tcl/Tk. I just ate a chocolate muffin that melted in my mouth with a strong cup of coffee. See I can be happy on occasion. - 14:49:03 on 12 Dec 97 GMT

Steven:JOETTE<<>> and more than anything a five day weekend makes me happy!!!{:o) - 14:55:31 on 12 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:GRANT- So right on the James subject. His personal attacks are pawned off as points while points are personal attacks to him. So! Instead of bother making points with him, I have more fun with the personal attacks. I know he's Ron's friend but with a friend like him, who in hell needs enemies! I haven't even read all of Demonic Males yet! I'm really behind on my reading. Yesterday, Jim and I were out mythmas shopping and he bought me two more books for mythmas. I have written down the books you reccomend, thanks. I don't know if anyone reads Stephen King here but if they do, did you know that the next book is out in his Dark Tower series? - 14:56:46 on 12 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:-->STEVEN..I was just pulling your leg...I enjoy it when you let off steam. It's good to see all sides of an issue, and you obviously know your history, which I like, because I feel not enough people take history seriously enough. The anniversary of your son must be difficult to deal with, and I extend my condolences to you and your wife. Sounds like you have a lot going on. And I envy you in that you can eat a chocolate muffin for breakfast and not have to worry about the calories you are ingesting! - 14:57:54 on 12 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:STEVEN- What a coincidence on the Steven King book! - 14:59:02 on 12 Dec 97 GMT

Grant:MARLENE-- I haven't read those books yet. I was hoping you had, as my book fund is not bottomless. How about if I buy one and you buy the other for starts? Gotta go. - 14:59:37 on 12 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:-->MARLENE..I still haven't read the third book in the series! I got if for xmas years ago, and it's still sitting on the shelf! Somehow I feel like I'm cheating if I read a work of fiction these days! I am going shopping right now, and am dreading it. I don't know about where all of you live, but here, the malls rent out almost every square inch in the aisles to seasonal vendors, and it makes it almost impossible to get around! Not only do people have to push and shove, but they also have to climb over top each other. And here, in Ontario, I believe we hold the world record for having the snarliest sales people, so shopping is not a treat. Talk to you later, when I have a footprint on my head! - 15:02:05 on 12 Dec 97 GMT

Steven:JOETTE<<>> for some reason I feel that I have to battle all the YICS (to borrow a term from Marlene) when I visit this site. If it was just us all loveing atheists I wouldn't feel that way I guess, LOL. Anyway my wife says I am opionionated!! LOL. Me opionionated hahahaha - 15:02:06 on 12 Dec 97 GMT

Steven:JOETTE<<>> you should try shopping in Mexico. They have the old world market system where you go in and barter for whatever you are buying. It is fun but it can become tiresome after awhile because every shop owner is hitting you up to come in the store. You win some but lose most. I guess that is why it is fun. - 15:06:28 on 12 Dec 97 GMT

Steven:MARLENE<<>> You will love the new book. It is well written. - 15:15:13 on 12 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:STEVEN- I haven't gotten the book yet. Like Grant, my book budget has a ceiling but next month I'm going to try to budget for it. I love King but then again I love all sci-fi and anything like that. Did you read Rose Madder? - 15:19:24 on 12 Dec 97 GMT

Steven:MARLENE<<>> I became a little burnt out on King after Needfull Things. I had read every book up to Needfull Things and then gave King a rest for a couple of years. Now that I have read this one I may go back and pick up the last couple of books he has read. I have been reading Robert Jordan, Gary Jennings, etc... I may reread Dhalgren by Zelzany for the fifth time. I read it again every other year or so. I just rearead Aztec, I had forgotten how sad that book is. - 15:27:14 on 12 Dec 97 GMT

that should be "last couple of books he has written" - 15:28:07 on 12 Dec 97 GMT

Steven:MARLENE, JOETTE<<>> have you read David Windgrove's 'Chung Kuo' series. It is excellent. If you liked the Dune series, or Asimovs's foundation series you will love these books. - 15:38:09 on 12 Dec 97 GMT

Carl:JAMES: I have read a few 'company reports' on how wonderful they are. It should go that matters of concern ought to address the intellect of people, be that as it may, and such things that I pointed out were never mentioned. As you may recall "heresy" is simply the mental act of making a choice between facts as they are presented. Going back to GRANT's URL that concerned the Rand points, my mind yields to nothing, but if it is good, I add it to me as fuel for my mind. So, any why are blacks so TALL? their knee-grows! - 15:48:09 on 12 Dec 97 GMT

Steven:CARL<<>> so what happened to Jesus when he went to Mt. Olive. He got his ass kicked by popeye - 15:57:16 on 12 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:STEVEN and CARL- I could use a little knee growth! Anyway I have to decorate the mythmus tree. I'll be back this afternoon with a chilling book report on the lastest non-fiction I've read. And it has everything to do with religion! - 16:23:15 on 12 Dec 97 GMT

Carl:ANY: I have been considering C.Sagan's purported 'last' book- Billions and Billions, in order to determine its' authenticity. Some capitalist may be involved and, well, they may be counting on feedin'off his blind followers. Some of us here know what other kinds of people do that blind thing, right? - 16:24:26 on 12 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:-->CARL...I stated that opinion about Billions and Billions awhile ago. It isn't worth the money. Try to borrow it from someone who has already bought it. - 18:21:02 on 12 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:-->gimme the lake o' fire anyday!!!!! Is it just me, or should I expect someone to say thank you when I spend hundreds of dollars in their store? Oh well, enough whining. STEVEN, I too grew weary of Stephen King after NeedLESS Things, but I keep getting his new books for gifts, so I have quite a collection of unread stuff. I was watching Nightline the other night, and it was about people's fascination with "the dark side" and Stephen King was on it. It is figured that we have such a fascination for writings like his because life is too good for us right now, and we need a little bit of a scare to appreciate the good things. Heck, all anyone has to do is read the bible, and that should scare them enough! - 18:26:26 on 12 Dec 97 GMT

RON...--->JAMES...: You're a weenie. You know as well as I do that the opposing side to this environmental issue are your republican buddies on corp. payrolls and their integrity has a price. Yeah, I agree that all the issues may seem unfair to Americans but, it's corporate America that killed off 99% of native Americans, enslaved an entire race for 150 years, irradiated it's own population for 50 years, profits from late night evangelists stealing from our elderly, and it's the same corporate America that has polluted this planet all in the name of progress under the flags of other, poorer countries. - 18:43:43 on 12 Dec 97 GMT

Carl:JOETTE: Ok, part o'the hesitancy here, the price rounded off to the near ten would have it at forty dead presidents. I of course wondered who was or might be involved. ANY, oft times prior, views o'NDE have been bantered about, well this morning the sunrise as the sun was still several minutes from cresting, that brilliant bright white that last but several minutes that as I saw it sure looked like that thing seen by those who describe their experience of an NDE. I was on my to the office it was quite a sight! - 18:55:14 on 12 Dec 97 GMT

RON...--->Joette...: Put yourself in the "lobotomy line" right behind James, "capitalism in it's purest form" is my ass on fire. If companies were up front about how much they screw us over....for instance, I've been noticing or new Compaq 6500 servers, that cost well over $37,000.00, are filled with components made in Mexico. We, as a global society, are moving closer to the "purest form" by now having free access to enslave the weakest segments of the world all for increasing profits. Do our servers come with discounts because they are made from labor unable to fight for better working conditions? Shit NO. Are there special labels on the packages stating that with this purchase you are helping to build a new school in the third world? Hell NO. Compaq, like the rest of corporate America, is taking advantage of poorer countries while slowly buying cities, like Houston. If you could see how much of north Houston Compaq now owns, you would gasp. A small business man cannot afford to lease retail space within 15 miles of the northern subs because Compaq has purchased it all up for office space. - 18:56:32 on 12 Dec 97 GMT

Carl:RON: There might be one good thing about poor countrys, they have people that must survive because, who else will work for those of us who must have? - 19:25:32 on 12 Dec 97 GMT

Carl:ANY: My post to RON is a joke of course. - 19:27:29 on 12 Dec 97 GMT

Steven:RON<<>> right on!!!!!! JAMES<<>> why don't you take a visit to Houston and see some real polution. Stop by Baycity and Texas City for a little while. JAMES your flag waveing is sickening. Just another brainwashed idiot! As if being a christian wasn't enough to brand you a dumbass. You don't know your ass from your elbow! - 19:30:36 on 12 Dec 97 GMT

Steven:RON<<>> oooops, you may upset ADAM's apple cart with the republican slam! - 19:33:22 on 12 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:-->RON..fuck off! LOL! - 19:43:28 on 12 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:-->RON..you are accusing Free Trade with enslavement. Look at what is happening with the Vietnamese and Chinese workers. They earn 10 cents an hour to make shoes for Nike, Reebok, etc. that have the nerve to sell them in North America for hundreds of dollars. What, if anything, do you know about free trade? - 19:46:32 on 12 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:-->RON..that should say "confusing" not "accusing". J'accuse! - 19:48:22 on 12 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:--->MERRY MYTHMAS TO YOU ALL...I am giving each and every one of you a gift: I will no longer be discussing politics on this page. I like you all too much to get pissed off and I don't want to make anymore political enemies than I already have. - 19:50:40 on 12 Dec 97 GMT

Steven:JOETTE<<>> thats part of the fun. Besides, religeon has to much to do with politics not to discuss them. - 19:57:37 on 12 Dec 97 GMT

Carl:ANY: In a book composed during the 30-40's by one of the better minds of those times predicted the end of communism and capitalism and that both would collapse for the same reason, economics. Where is the Soviet Union today? Who is next? - 20:02:24 on 12 Dec 97 GMT

PapaSam:JAMES. To get respect one must earn it. I can respect a person who has pondered the existence of a god and feels, based on his own reasoning, that such a thing exists. You, on the other hand, have swallowed a mythology hook, line, and sinker. No questions, no doubts. Mommy and Daddy and nice old Auntie Jane who gave you a bible for Xmas told you so, and as the old song goes about "The Old Time Religion" - "It was good enough for Daddy, it was good enough for Mommy ----And it's good enough for me." So take comfort on your religion. It keeps you from having to think. Now ALL, and in particular STEVEN and JOETTE. Joette because you love history, and Steven because you think yourself very knowledgeable in the field. As an American I do not always agree with my country's foreign policy. Most of the events you mention occurred in your lifetime and you read about them in the newspapers. Your conception of the events leading to the nuclear bombing of Japan is off track. completely off track. Let me set you and Joette and everyone else straight about it. I was there. I was a participant in the events and I will state them objectively. Have you ever heard of or read of Japan' "Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere?" I don't think so. It was the Japanese term for their imperialist attempt to conquer the rest of Asia. They had invaded China, Korea and other nations. The nation of Japan was dominated in every area by the military. The emperor. Hirohito, was considered a god and the ordinary citizen was not permitted to look upon. He lived secluded behind his palace walls. It is difficult for people to understand the mindset of the ordinary Japanes off that time. It was an honor to die for the emperor. I will be as brief as I can but everything I will tell you is the unvarnished truth. In 1941 I was in the US Army, stationed in the Phillipine Islands. I was based on Corregidor, an island in Manila Bay. On Dec 7th the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor without any declaration of war. We were involved in a dispute with Japan over oil rights and it was being discussed at the White House by Japanese diplomats and our president. There was no warning of any kind. The Japanese military ran the country and did as they pleased. One question. Do you think that if the Japanse military had an atomic bomb they would have used it? To make a long story short I was a prisoner of war of the Japanese for three years and four months. We were told at the timethe war was coming to an nd that all POW's would be killed. They weren't kidding. We were also told by the civilian 'hanchos' that they would defend an invasion of their homeland using bamboo spears if they had to, One of them even told me that they were teaching their children how to use them. And finally, they told me they would all commit 'hara kiri' ritual suicide before they would surrender. It reminded me of the speech made to us when my group arrived at Tanagawa, our first prison cammp in Japan. "You are prisoners of war. A Japanse soldier would rather die than surrender. YOu ARE LOWER THAN DOGS." And that's the way they treated us. The idea promulgated by the people who say that the Japanese were ready is an outright lie. It would have gone against evrything they believed in. They were informed by some neutral diplomats that we had a terrible weapon of destruction and completely disregarded it. After we bombed Hiroshima they still refused to surrender and it was not until three days later that we dropped the other bomb on Nagasaki. The nucclear bombs took a great toll on the Japanse people. Had we not dropped the bombs the toll would have been much worse. Far much worse. I would not be here giving you this history lesson. Many thousands of Prisoners of War - not just Amricans, but British, Dutch and others would havd been executed. The number of Japanese dying in defense of their homeland would have more than decimated their people. The estimates on the number of American casualties in a full scale invasion of Kyushu range as high as one million. One self proclaimed historian stated that "a maximum of 46,000 American lives would have been lost in a full scale invasion of Kyushu." He didn't mention the number of wounded. But let me ask, Mr Analyst, Would you have volunteered to be one of the "only 46,000?" Would you have wanted your father, or brother or son to be one of them? I don't think so. And between yourself and the other like minded apologists, simple minded as you are, I don't think you'ld find enough volunteers to fill a rowboat.. - 20:33:00 on 12 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:-->PAPASAM..it is commendable that you did your part for your country, but please do not think that just because I speak now of what has happened in my lifetime that I am ignorant of what has transpired througout the history of mankind. I do not just concentrate on what I read in the papers or see in the news reports. Members of my family fought in the Great Wars (my maternal grandfather fought in both, and lost his life in the second), I have uncles who were in the Korean War, friends in the Vietnam war, and friends in the Gulf. My husband is a direct descendant of Paul Kruger, therefore we have a close attachment to the Boer War. My in-laws lived in Indonesia during the revolution there (my sister-in-law was actually born during it). I have friends who are currently keeping the peace in Bosnia. This does not make me any higher on the ladder of knowledge than others, nor does it mean that nothing before mattered. I am well aware of what happened in Japan, and when I set out to learn about a subject, I will look at both sides on an issue, not just the side of the good guys. It is would make me very happy if all would study history, right back to the cave days, instead of believing legends. I would also like to point out to you that you forgot to mention Canadians in your list of people who were imprisoned. It is Canadians who are honoured in Holland on VE Day, not Americans, as your propaganda machine would have the rest of the world believe. - 21:01:58 on 12 Dec 97 GMT

Steven:PAPASAM<<>> Both of my Grandfathers fought in the Pacific during WWII. They have explained to me how the Japanese fought and how the treated conquered nations. I am not an apologist for Japan. I however do not fault the Japanese for their culture and/or pride in their culture. Yes many American lives were saved by useing the weapons to end the war. But, after the first weapon was droped all communications that the Japanese would have been able to use to communicate with each other or to communicate with the outside were severed. The Japanese and even the Americans did not really know if the damn things would work in the first place. Think about this from the Japanese side. The hear that America has a big bad bomb that will destroy anything, but up until that point a bomb of that nature did not even exist, so how could they know what it would do. I assure you that if they did they would have surrendered regardless of their hari kari and devotion to the emperor. Dropping a nuclear bomb on civilians is inexcusable regarless of the situation. There are facts which state that our own state dept. and Pres. knew that Japan was going to strike Pearl Harbor and let it happen so we would enter the war and Japan would seem the agressor. When if fact we were screwing Japan out of more than oil. The conflict between Japan and the US started way before Pearl Harbor. The Japanese by the end of the war had: No aircraft carriers, No battle ships, and little to no air force. Their natural resources such as oil, refineries, food etc... were null or nill. Yes they may have put up a fight if we sent the ground troops in right away. At that time we had the resources to bomb Japan via Air force and Navy back to the stone ages without haveing to murder hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians. PAPA my post on Japan may have hit a sore nerve with you, as I am quit sure it would with my grandfather. I simply stated that the use of a Nuclear device, certainly two, was inhuman and unecessary. The Japanese military did some horrible things during the war, Nanjing massacre etc..., but the civilian populace did not deserve to die anymore than ours would for supporting their government. This may be personal for you considering your POW experience but I am debateing from a historical perspective. I have not claimed any honors or accalades for loveing history. It is simply my hobbie, and simple minded i'm not, so take a valium let out your colostomy bag and relax! - 21:16:16 on 12 Dec 97 GMT

Carl:P'SAM: A WW2 p.o.w. of the pacific theatre! The next thing anyone ought to reasonably inquire of was there any value of that and as for people willing to die STEVE's sort died too by the hands of the USA, and so what value was there in that? Seems to appear that as long as it is "them" well, it is ok. - 21:16:47 on 12 Dec 97 GMT

Steven:PAPA<<>> by the way how many POW's did our fine fighting force slaughter in Vietnam? I assure you the numbers would stagger you! Or PAPA what about Iraq. Or even better how many civilians and POW's did the cowardly US army slaughter in the genocide of the Native Americans. That hits home a little for me. - 21:21:37 on 12 Dec 97 GMT

PETER:--PAPA SAM--Who is "Mr. Analyst'?--and why the insults? - 21:26:00 on 12 Dec 97 GMT

James--->Joette...:Ron is trying to kiss up to the Canadians by running his own country down to a predominantly Canadian group of Canadians who already have a dislike for the US. Are you really that stupid? P.S. I make it to church about 6 times a year lately. Unlike many people my faith is not strengthened by hanging out with a congregation or hearing someone read from the bible. My relationship with god as individual as my beliefs about what life is all about. - 21:26:58 on 12 Dec 97 GMT

James--->...Peter:I am sure Canada is a nice place to live and depending on what your looking for in a country may in fact be the best country to live in. I am not looking for a socialist government. I would not want to live in a country where the citizens must regularly cross the US border to buy the things that their country denies them via taxation. I would not want to live in a country where I have to go to another country to get excellent medical care, or wait weeks to get an appointment. Canada’s industrial base is the pits. They have no military to speak of and it would be up to American soldiers to defend it if need be. Every Canadian born ought to kiss the arse of every American soldier that ever lived. Canada produces nothing and depends on everyone. Nope, the USA provides for me the closest thing to real freedom and is #1 to me. - 21:27:35 on 12 Dec 97 GMT

James--->Grant...:If it seems as though I am not calm…good. People should understand that I am passionate about my beliefs and despite the decay in our American society, I would die for my country and I will raise my sons to feel the same passion. So when someone says the world would be better off if the USA where wiped of it, I have to say something and I have to say it loud. Shouldn’t be that hard to understand - 21:28:00 on 12 Dec 97 GMT

James--->Marlene...:Are you confused or what? What makes you think I would kiss up to you, Canadians, or anyone else for that matter? Your comment comes out of left field and has no relevance to anything I said. But then that does not surprise me at all. - 21:28:27 on 12 Dec 97 GMT

James--->PapaSam...:Have you stopped driving your automobile? Have any of you so concerned with the Earth’s environment stopped driving your vehicles? Why do you need a government to get you started? What is stopping you from doing your part? You cannot expect to be taken seriously about this until you stop portraying yourself as hypocrites. Anyway, I don’t know how your kids would have turned out if raised as atheist. I am implying no such thing. I simply pondered the question. Mainly because I hear so often about how most atheist start out theists and church goers but end up atheist. Also, the religious mantra you describe is not my idea of what it is to have faith or to accept the ideas of Christian morality. - 21:28:55 on 12 Dec 97 GMT

James--->Grant...:Point out a personnel attack that predates this assult on the USA and consequently my heritage and I will discuss it with you. - 21:29:26 on 12 Dec 97 GMT

James--->Joette...:Since your mind is so unique, tell me what myth I follow. Illustrate for me what it is I’ve said that you use as a basis to label me a bigot. The only bigotry I see here is perpetrated by you and some of the other atheist on this page. What insight do you have, what crystal ball are you rubbing that enables you to know what I do or don’t know about the world. How intelligent you must be to be able to deduce that based solely on my defense of the country I love and would die for. - 21:29:57 on 12 Dec 97 GMT

James--->Peter...:Sorry you missed out on the spark that started this brush fire. Ron said the world would be a better place if the USA was wiped of it. Others than followed by spewing the typical brainwashed environmental propaganda and how the USA is the main cause of environmental harm. Being they are Canadians, I am guessing this is because of Prince William Sound which is once again a thriving ecological system. The truths were as follows. The USA has dedicated more dollars and has made more progress than any other country in the world regarding pollution clean-up. Secondly, the USA has dedicated more dollars and resources toward helping other countries clean-up their own messes than any other country. One other truth. Because the media has such a prevalent presence in American television and television and movies around the world, it is only natural that so many people around the world would believe this of the US. - 21:30:23 on 12 Dec 97 GMT

James--->Steven...:Yes the US is just another empire like so many before it. Whether your prediction turns to reality remains to be seen, but it does indicate a ray of hope for you in that it illustrates something you believe without evidence. Anyway, I’ll accept your number for education. I am convinced we have country full of morons. Look who they put in office as the President. Iraq was fought to 1. Undo a horrible act of aggression and return a country back to it’s people. 2. Protect the US’s interest and the World’s interest in the petroleum of the region. Petroleum facilitates the entire world, not just the US. And, if I am not mistaken there was quite a coalition of other countries involved. Panama…Being run by a major drug lord who supplied moronic Americans with illegal drugs. The country is in much better shape now. Grenada…Prevent the coup of a democratically elected president by a communist dictator. Korea and Vietnam….Obligated by treaty and the threat of communist expansion….Cuba..invaded by American trained Cuban nationalist. Japan…we knew the thing worked when we exploded it in the desert. The Emperor of Japan had already stated that Japan would fight until the last man was dead. An invasion of Japan would of cost hundreds of thousands of lives and would have prolonged the war another 2 or more years causing even more death. Unlike Pearl Harbor, Japan was warned of the impending doom and failed to evacuate its people from the area. Stupid move on their part. The Us has not destroyed 98% of all the natural forest. When is the last time you flew across the US? Every country on the planet does not hate the US. It seems that way because the one who do get a lot of attention. Your statement that if we don’t like their politics we drop a bomb is not of the typically rational line of thinking you normally have and makes it sound like your the one trying to be the jerk. IMO anyway. - 21:31:05 on 12 Dec 97 GMT

James--->Steven...:You make no sense.. "I guess you could compare quit easily the US to the christian faith."(Steven) Even If I knew what your were saying, it is obvious that you have closed your mind to reality. Tell me the Christian organization or church that kills people who disagree with them? What is your latest example? - 21:31:48 on 12 Dec 97 GMT

James--->Ron...:Why do we have to cover this time and time again. Environmental pollution didn’t start in 94 when the Republicans took over the House and Senate. Prior to that the Demoncrats ran the show(40 years), created the agencies, appointed the people, etc, etc….I agree, corporate America has had a major impact on all the items you listed above…But none of it compares to the centuries of European abuse. - 21:32:13 on 12 Dec 97 GMT

James--->Steven...:I live in Houston and it pales in comparison to the pollution of Moscow, Mexico City, Frankfurt, the list goes on and on. I would hardly call making one defensive post about America sickening flag waving. I hope other s judge me a Christian as well. It is a badge of honor. I decided a while back to stop calling myself a Christian. I believe now that, that is a judgment only other people can make of you. Thank you for seeing Christian morality in me. Sadly it is not deserving though because I have this intense need to tell you to kiss my ass, not my elbow and to tell you to pull your head out of your ass. Good luck. - 21:33:26 on 12 Dec 97 GMT

Steven:JAMES<<>> you must have lots of friends, you should call up RICHARD and QUAKE and you guy's can sit around all day and delude yourselves. god, country and family right James. As far as I am concerned your heritage was born through murder, rape and pillage. If it was up to me the US of frigging A would be nothing but a scary memory. If a large weapons were placed in the white house, pentagon, senate and house chambers and all of them went off at once I would throw a party. Do you have any white supremist ties, KKK ties or what. This country will die and I will do everything in my power to help it's downfall. You and the people like you mean nothing to me, nothing. One day it will all fall down around your ear's and when it does I hope I see you so I can spit in your face, jerk. - 21:42:31 on 12 Dec 97 GMT

PETER:--James--If you want to stay in the US, fine. Canada socialist? It may be slightly redder than the US, but I kind of like not having to deplete my bank account if a family member or myself, needs hospitilization. It may be administered awkwardly at times, but these occaisions are hardly worth getting concerned about. No military? So what? Who the hell is going to invade Canada? The prospect of this is almost laughable. - 22:05:20 on 12 Dec 97 GMT

Carl:JAMES: That is nice that you choose to see nice things, only. You should, however, relinquish your mystical inclinations admit the no-god way so as to enable you to jump into this fray and freely become one with honest concern. Leave that other nonsense out of your thoughts, you almost sound, sound concerned now, until you excuse any or all with a mind yielding diatribe of diesm or patriotism. Neither serves humanity at large, or just a select few, is that good enough for you? - 22:26:03 on 12 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:-->JAMES..just by what you write on this page is enough evidence of the tunnel visioned world you inhabit. Canada needs the U.S. to defend it? See, you don't know your history. What year did Canada enter World War II? What year did the U.S. enter that same war? Did the Germans have U-boats in the Gulf of St. Lawrence? Where the U.S. defending us then? And, who won the war of 1812?????? Was it the U.S., or was it Canada? Open a few history books to find out. It is not I that is stupid, it is you. - 22:37:03 on 12 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:-->JAMES..now that you have had your say, did you run away you yellow-bellied sapsucker. When you want some more education, I will challenge your stupid comment about the medical care in this country. Being a consumer of same, I think I have more of an insight than you, you fucking asshole. - 22:40:15 on 12 Dec 97 GMT

Steven:JOETTE<<>> YOU GO GIRL!!! - 22:47:32 on 12 Dec 97 GMT

PETER:--Boy we all love each other today don't we? - 22:50:53 on 12 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:--->STEVEN..there's really no point, is there? If one is spoon fed baloney and accepts it without question, then it just keeps being perpetuated. Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to run out and defend the borders of this pitiful country against the invasions that we have to worry about so incessantly. - 22:54:33 on 12 Dec 97 GMT

Carl:JOETTE: On the medical point, JAMES has snookered himself there with that issue, the HMO phenomena now prevalent in the USA is not good for those at large. My own health agency has recently moved into that same sort of coverage and it is not a patient friendly palce. - 22:59:31 on 12 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:-->CARL..I am familiar with HMO. We Canadians fear nothing more than a U.S. style health care system. - 23:11:38 on 12 Dec 97 GMT

Carl:JOETTE: Who won the war o'1812? Now, keep in view a kid- moi, was told the struggling USA did, one paid it no mind as many other things were also said during those times past. - 23:45:26 on 12 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:YIKES! You guys! Didn't I warn you that James was a dingus and that Dale may be created from someone just like him!!! PAPASAM- My stepfather was a prisoner of war in Japan. He was with that Canadian troop that got themselves stuck on a hill (or something like that??). Anyway as he would have said, war is war and people are people. It's the governments that start the wars and it's the propaganda they feed to the people who get suckered into dying for them. He had respect for his captors and learned much from them. When he returned to Canada he continued to eat sparcely, exercise(by walking EVERYWHERE) and enjoying life to it's fullest. Up until the day he died he abhored the propaganda machine run by governments all over the world. - 0:15:53 on 13 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:-->CARL....well, sorry to burst your educator's bubble, but it wasn't the U.S., and if you ever have the chance to visit Niagara Falls, take a peek at the huge amount of history pertaining that war which surrounds the area. - 1:11:41 on 13 Dec 97 GMT

James--->Joette the bitch:So, you get your history lessons from historical markers...how enlightening....tell me what you think you know of the War of 1812 and why I should take your word over the the three semesters with PHD history professors? - 2:11:35 on 13 Dec 97 GMT

James--->Steven the punk:So Steven you sound to me to be about 13 years old. I hope you are standing on the other side of the line when the fighting begins. I'll be the first to reach down your throught, rip out your heart and spit in your face as you die. You are a punk kid who knows nothing. - 2:13:33 on 13 Dec 97 GMT

James--->Marlene....:sticks and stones darling. - 2:23:38 on 13 Dec 97 GMT

James--->Peter...:Its not the visits to the hospital that break my bank, its TAXES. Besides that I have been part of an HMO for 8 years now. I had two premature difficult births, or rather my wife did, that cost me a total of 60 US dollars. Why does the world use the American dollar to measure its currency value against?...anyway we had private rooms for both births, otherwise the cost would have been 25 US dollars. My wife remained in the hospital for 4 days after both births. Our HMO contracts with some of the best hospitals in Houston and specifically with a hospital that caters to women's needs. I pay 97.50 US dollars a month for 100% full medical coverage for my family w/a 5-dollar co-pay for doctors visits and 10 dollars for emergency care. I pay 14 dollars a month for full family dental coverage. (DMO) There is not a person in this country who would be refused medical attention with or without insurance coverage. And Medicaid is how we take care of people who cannot afford insurance. I am a satisfied that I get the best medical coverage at the best price than any where else in the world. Which would explain why so many people come here for medical treatment. - 2:36:07 on 13 Dec 97 GMT

James--->The Bitch...:James-ŕBitch…I don't know what year Canada entered World War II which proves just how insignificant an event it was. I can't remember even the smallest mention of it in any of my text books or lecture notes. Let me ask you one question. Who would have won the war if the US did not get involved? And my dear, it was American Naval vessels that lead the war against U-boats and the raids they were making on the shipping lanes even before we the Lusitania(sp?) was sunk. In regards to the war of 1812, do you even know where it was fought?…tell me more about what you know of the war of 1812. Why was it fought for example and who were the main players? Yes, Joette, this message was for you…you guessed right. Cheers! - 2:45:15 on 13 Dec 97 GMT

James--->Carl...:Keep working at it Carl, I am not that far from you. Sadly though it appears that unless I agree with everyone about everything, I am the one who is confused. It is strange how when I agree, I am coming around and when I disagree, I am a lost cause. Which of course means I will never be one of you. I will not simply agree for the sake of becoming part of the fray. - 2:50:26 on 13 Dec 97 GMT

James--->Joette, you ignorant slut...:Remember that on Saturday Night Live. I always laughed my ass off when he would say that...I know, it was Jane...Jane... Joette...same difference. You go girl....what stupid dork...Anyway, I did not run away. I captured the text from the posting and worked on my responses when I could over the course of the day. I then posted them one after the other and finished doing what I am paid to do...I guess you really are that stupid. - 2:55:23 on 13 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:-->JAMES..you are nothing but low life scum. I think your god will be delighted to have you sitting at his/her right hand, doling out the benevolence he/she is so famous for. Am I a bitch because I made you look stupid, which you are, without a doubt. Now, crack open the history books you uneducated dork, before you try to have even a semblance of an intellectual conversation with me. BTW, since Canada is a separate country from yours, how do your PHD persons claim that you won that war, when it was the land in Canada the Americans were after? Look at a map creep, our country is still a lot larger than yours. Now off to church with you, or are you trying desperately to get one of our medical cards so that you don't have to pay a cent for health care? BTW, my daughter suffers from a disease that if she were in the U.S. would have died about 10 years ago, due to the antiquated methods they use for treatment, and thanks to our medical capabilites here, she will be with us for a long time still. - 2:57:57 on 13 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:-->JAMES...how's it feel looking up from the bottom of the barrel. If you are a xtain, I would hate to see what the rest of the people in your congregation are like. - 3:02:49 on 13 Dec 97 GMT

James--->Peter...:Invading Canada is a pretty ridiculous example, but what better way to illustrate absurdity than with absurdity. I guess you're all right. Who the hell would want to invade Canada anyway. But, IF they did, who would defend it? - 3:05:21 on 13 Dec 97 GMT

James--->Joette...:No, your a bitch for calling me an asshole. simple as that. - 3:08:04 on 13 Dec 97 GMT

James--->Joette...:Intellectual conversation with you...I think I am going to bust a gut.....ROFL - 3:09:30 on 13 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene FYI:JOETTE- James doesn't even get along at church obviously. As I told you, he is a yic who doesn't need the bible or a church. As he has said he has a personal relationship with a non-exsistent character by the name of god. His conduct and values come from his relationship with the "nothingness" and he hold's the "nothingness" in high esteem. Really! How fulfilling is a empty dish? Told you he's a dingus! - 3:11:36 on 13 Dec 97 GMT

James--->Joette...:I asked the questions first you answer them, then I will answer your questions - 3:11:44 on 13 Dec 97 GMT

James--->Marlene...:Is space empty? Does the universe contain nothing...no, that's just the echo in your skull? - 3:13:21 on 13 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene..gotta go watch homocide, I'll be back. I argued with him for over a year, it's your turn,LOL:JOETTE- Who would want to invade Canada? Sheesh! I guess we don't have anything of value here?!?! Isn't he just typical! - 3:15:54 on 13 Dec 97 GMT

James--->Marlene...:I get along with just about anyone and am welcome any time at the church I choose to visit from time to time. My reaction to the insults thrown my way and the attacks on my country are natural. You expect me to sit back and take it? Really Marlene, who is the dingus now? - 3:17:49 on 13 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:-->JAMES...I asked you questions that you didn't answer, so it is still your call. Try opening a history book. Or better, ask your personal friend "god". Since you have such a close, personal relationship with him/her you should get the answers via osmosis. And yes, I too am laughing at the prospect of ever having an intellectual conversation with you. - 3:18:17 on 13 Dec 97 GMT

James--->Steven...:Tell me Steven, in your scary memory, where the 250 million people that live in the US reduced to ashes also? - 3:21:44 on 13 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene..from da suth wes:JAMES- Gee, duh, James, space is empty cause some shit for brains yics claims it is and isn't. Maybe it's relative? I thinks all the yics end up cutting their own throughts, that's what I think, uh-huh! - 3:22:24 on 13 Dec 97 GMT

PapaSam:JOETTE. After reading the facts do you still feel that it was wrong to use the bombs? Incidentally, I have a very high opinion of Canada and its people, but don't let that affect yor answer. STEVEN. What makes you think all communication was severed when we dropped the first bomb? And what magic did the second bomb have that suddenly opened the communications again. You are making an assumption about what you think they would have done based on YOUR premise. Bottom Line. They did NOT surrender. I don't see any logic or even compassion when you state that we could have bombed them into the stone age using conventional bombs. Am I to assume that would have been OK? You go on to state that we knew it was going to happen and let it take place so that the Japanese would be made to look like the aggressor. Now how could anyone ever get that impression? Just because they invaded China, Korea and Burma and a few other smaller countries shouldn't give you that impression. They were very nice to their troops, despite the fact that they used corporal punishment in the military If you think it means that a corporal had the authority to stand a private at attention and slap the shit out of him you're right. And it worked all the way up the ranks. But I digress. The military was very considerate of their men. They even issued them cigarettes and "fuck chits" to take care of their physical needs. Not only that, they even went to the trouble of abducting 40,000 Korean women to serve them. Wasn't that thoughtful? They also encouraged medical research in North China where they had a lab and practiced experiments on a few thousand Chinese. Well, they were just doing their job.To get back to their willingness to surrender at given points in time, the bottom line is still this. They did NOT until we dropped th second nuclear bomb. Your "ifs" remind me of a popular saying we had as kids. "If my aunt had nuts she'd be my uncle." But she doesn't and she is still an aunt. And if you are wondering what I mean I'll put it simply. No matter what you assume or presume the facts speak for themselves. ALL. A question in ethics. You have twenty men under your command. You have the firepower to defend them against all possible attacks. An enemy approaches and is about to kill them. You blow him away. Ten men come to do the job. You take care of them. Then twenty, followed by fifty, a hundred, two hundred and so on. Is there a point when you would think that killing so many to save just 20 men was morally wrong? Or would you feel that the lives of your men was worth more than any number of the enemy? As to war itself, it is a cruel thing. There is noo such thing as a pleasant war, and there is as yet no nice way to slaughter people. War is murder in an organized way. Yet when a nation is attacked it must defend itself. Such is the way of man,christian or not. Man is an animal. He has the same traits as the others in the animal kingdom. He eats , drinks, and procreates as do all animals. And he evolves (sorry, christians, but he does) amd creates cultures and so called civilizations. Whether for good or bad, as Popeye would say - "I yam what I yam and that's all I yam." STEVEN. As to your recommendation, I don't take drugs, not even aspirin. And I don't have a colostomy bag. (Again, another assumption) If you would like proof I'll be glad to send you a stool specimen. While we're on the subject of matters physical, be careful you don't choke on your own bile. To get back to the genocide of the native Americans. I have said before and I repeat - It was inexcusable. But please don't blame me or my ancestors. They came here after it was done. - 3:51:06 on 13 Dec 97 GMT

PETER:--JAMES--Who would defend Canada? Canada would, and whoever would want to help defend them. Isn't this how it works now? Look what happened when Iraq decided to invade Kuwait. Practically every other country in the world showed their disdain for this action, and a bunch of them booted their ass out of there. Right now Canada has lots of friends, and they would more than likely do the same--ESPECIALLY, if the U.S. were the invaders. But one can never really predict what the world situation would be like in the future. Maybe somewhere down the line every country in the world will hate us, and collectively wipe us all out. But to automatically assume the US will "protect us" just ain't necessarily so. Right now, we got more friends than you do. Also, if I were you, I'd be a little more concerned about your own country--and your own life. This is because if you call my wife a slut again, I will track you down like a wild animal and wipe you off the face of the earth. And I will. - 4:01:31 on 13 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:PETER- YEE HAH! I think some of those Americans to the south (and I'm not saying all Americans, just shitheads like James) haven't the faintest I idea just how rich Canada really is. - 4:15:24 on 13 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:PAPASAM- Shouldn't we have evolved beyond war or if not, isn't it time we did? - 4:19:31 on 13 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- Don't let the pip squeak bother you. NC and Richard did as they left the discussion because of such treatment. As he knows, nothing he calls me, bothers me. Don'r let him bother you! Just look at from where the comments are coming from. - 4:22:46 on 13 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:-->PAPASAM..believe it or not, the saying "all's fair in love and war" means something to me. However, it is my opinion that mankind should do whatever possible to avoid war. The bombings at Hiroshima and Nagasaki were terrible tragedies, but we can not forget that that type of bomb was in its infancy, and no one could foresee the extent of the short term and long term affects. Not only to the Japanese, but to your own military that were used as guinea pigs in the desert. - 4:27:23 on 13 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:--->PAPASAM..I must clarify my post. I do not think genocide is fair, however, genocide is normally the cause for a war, not the effect of a war. - 4:30:12 on 13 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:-->MARLENE..don't worry, James isn't getting to me. If he had an ounce of intelligence it might concern me, but I just consider the sources. Also, I am glad you are watching Homicide now. I have watched it ever since it started, and I still think it is the best show that has ever been on television. - 4:32:53 on 13 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- I confess! I was only watching Homicide because PSI Factor was a repeat but I agree that Homicide is a great show. My favorite (non-sci-fi) show of the season is The Practice. They deal with such controversial issues! It comes on tomorrw night. Have you seen it? - 4:40:55 on 13 Dec 97 GMT

PapaSam:PETER. Mr. Analyst is my pseudonym for an an individual who was quoted in the New York Times at the time of the dispute over the intended display in the Smithsonian museum showing the effects of the bomb dropped on Hiroshima without giving the background and the reasons for its use. I wasvery pissed off that an individual, presumably an American, would state that if we had not used the nucclear devices "only" 46,000 American casualties would have resulted if we had invaded the island of Kyushu. The fact that military estimates placed the number from 500,000 to a million is irrelevant. What pissed me off is his willingness to sacrifice "only" 46,000 American lives to avoid its use. I repeat what I have said before. Would he have voluntered to be one of the "only 46,000?" Would he or any of the other like minded apologists have volunteered the lives of their fathers, brothers, or sons? I don't think so. I don't think they would have supplied enough volunteers to fill a rowboat. - 4:46:09 on 13 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:-->MARLENE..nope, haven't watched The Practice. I am rather afraid to, given the quality of Law and Order. I fear anything would pale in comparison in the law area of television. - 4:49:51 on 13 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:-->Well, I have to watch South Park now so I'll talk to y'all tomorrow. - 4:57:06 on 13 Dec 97 GMT

PapaSam:JAMES. You've asked everyone else, now I'd like to ask you. I would assume from your holier than thou attitude that you have given up your car. Is this true? When you get off your pedestal to buy your groceries do you back pack them home. I would appreciate some helpful hints on doing without driving. Do you work from your home or do you travel to work? If you travel, how do you get there? Do you have a guardian angel fly you there? That's really a pollution free way to go. Or, god forbid, are you one of those guys who says "Don't do as I do, do as I say." In the name of clean air and a pollution free environment I eagerly await your answer. - 5:00:15 on 13 Dec 97 GMT

James--->Peter...:I apologize for calling your wife a slut, but it really wasn't meant in that context. Its just something that struck me from an old memory about Saturday Night Live, the TV show. I thought it was funny. Anyway, I admire your chivalry and have dueling pistols available should you decide to come for a visit. You are welcome anytime. As for your wife and her foul mouth, do you think she appreciates your not thinking she can take care of her self? Does she need you to defend her? She started all this name calling when she called me an asshole. Obviously I don't know your wife well enough to call her a slut nor more than she knows me well enough to judge my character. I have done well in the past months to refrain from argument here because it typically turns out this way. I comment to an individual, in this case Ron, and then I get pummeled by 3, 4 or 5 of you guys. Inevitably someone comes from the bottom of the scum pile, in this case your wife, and starts the name calling. A bigger person, a Christian person, would simply walk away. But alas, I can not. I can not label myself Christian, and I bow my head in shame for once again I have failed to live up to the standards of a god. I 'd like to think we can stay on good terms Peter but I will understand if you must remain apart of the flock. Best wishes to you and your wife. - 14:21:51 on 13 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene..same old..same old..:JAMES- You really are an asshole! No one here agrees with you or your tunnel vision. You just don't get it, do you? If you think your going to destroy this discussion because Ron has made such a sucess of it, your dreaming. Unlike Richard and NC, we all here are much more stubborn. I thought you were setting up a yic chat? Your a sheep among the lions here. - 14:43:40 on 13 Dec 97 GMT

James--->Marlene...:Beyond having a large portion of the greatest natural and virgin forestry still in existence as well as having some very pristine rivers and lakes. I know very little about the wealth of Canada. It is rich with wild life and many natural resources. I believe it is still one of the largest suppliers of lumber and holds many untouched oil reserves. I'm sure there is more that I am missing, but when I think of Canada, these are the things that enter my mind, along with the fact that it was a popular hiding place during the Vietnam war. - 14:50:45 on 13 Dec 97 GMT

PETER:--JAMES--Kind of funny you know, why is it that so many here start trading insults with you almost immediately upon every one of your blessed "returns" to this page. Could it maybe perhaps not necessarily be the actual contents of your posts, but rather how you react to certain criticism and disagreement which focus in on the character of your adversaries--even if they deliver the first blow. Yes, a bigger person, not necessarily a Christian one, does rise above these situations, and for you to at least recognize this transpiration, is at least a start. You erroneously equate high morals with christian morals, which by your very own actions demonstrates that this is false. Although christianity takes a vested interest in moral behaviour, its inadequacies are obvious. As for my wife being upset for me "defending" her, she wasn't at all. I let her read the message before I posted it, and thought it was funny, and said she "really didn't care" if I posted it with a chuckle in her voice. Yes, she is more than capable of defending herself verbally. - 14:51:14 on 13 Dec 97 GMT

James--->PapaSam...:You have got it all wrong. It is not I who has the holier than thou attitude, it is those complaining about how the US is the main reason environmental pollution exists. They say these things while at the same time committing the violations they condemn. In answer to your question though, No, I own 4 cars, a boat, and a car trailer…It is my estimation that we are a long way off from any man-made environmental Armageddon an I enjoy all my internal combustion toys. On the up-side though, I do my best to keep all my vehicles properly tuned to burn efficiently which produces less CO, better gas mileage and MORE POWER. - 14:52:32 on 13 Dec 97 GMT

James--->Marlene...:How little we know....perhaps I am an asshole, I know I have been from time to time, but maybe your right I just an asshole plain and simple, always have been, always will be. Now with that settled, I am not a lamb, I am an Awdad, and ram that goes about 600 pounds and takes no shit from anyone, lions included. I don't know what you call them where your from. As for destroying this discussion base, you tried that one before. I am a key factor in why this page did not fold when Simon could no longer carry it. Ron came to me for the How to's and thusly you still have your page. SO, that one doesn't fly. No time to set-up a chat page and If I did, it would not be a YIC chat line. - 14:59:44 on 13 Dec 97 GMT

James--->Peter...:Alright Peter, I'll give you that, perhaps it is a knee jerk reaction of mine that spurs this line of dialog. Surely though you would tell someone to leave a country they are not happy in? Surely you would defend your country and what it offers you much like you would hunt me down and kill me for calling your wife a slut. BTW, don't waste anytime with a hunt, just ask me for my address. I do not erroneously equate high morals with Christianity. I recognize that Christianity, practiced in a purer form inherently contains that which makes for high moral standards. I do not claim they have a monopoly on it, or are the creators of it. Secondly, I make no claim to be Christian and therefore no one can use me as an example of what Christians are like or what they believe. To be judged Christian is a compliment and must come from others…no one can call themselves a Christian by nature of their beliefs and my transgressions are by no means representative of Christian morality. - 15:10:56 on 13 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:-->JAMES..I shouldn't have called you an asshole. I shouldn't have wasted so many keystrokes. Instead, I shall bestow upon you a title which I learned from our friend Rob in England, and which I have been just itching to use: You are a fuckwit! - 15:20:37 on 13 Dec 97 GMT

PETER:--JAMES--OK, all this blabber about insults, hunting down, defending borders, leaving counties aside--a totally disagree with you about christianity making for higher morals. However, before one can discuss this any further, they must identitfy what the term "morals" actually refers to to. What ARE morals, and how do they relate to human existence? As I have stated before, christian morals range from inadequte, to mistaken, to disastrous. Sure, they prevent people from killing each other, and stealing, and they want people to be "nice" to each other, but this is far from being adequate. This is totally due to the fact that they are based on mysticism--not reality. And this is where ALL the troubles start. - 15:31:23 on 13 Dec 97 GMT

RON...--->JAMES, you slut...: Why do you keep avoiding the arguement here? Corporate America didn't begin with Newt ala '94. It began with the English attitude, "no holds barred", when they invaded North America. HA HA HA...I just read Joette's post, 2 above mine, "fuckwit". HA HA HA....Hey, where are you anyway, I'm a work waiting on you to get here. - 15:42:31 on 13 Dec 97 GMT

RON..."can't we all just get along?"...:Ok, ok, enough of the name calling. Let's throw out some topics and get down to the debate. BTW, close friends, I had a wonderful time last night. Met up with a woman I've been chasing for a few weeks, our faces were stuck together for hours and I like her. We kinda *click* together and she enjoys my company also. She's mature, out spoken, sexy, and bossy. I'm wondering if she likes neck ties or handcuffs... Life is looking up. - 15:46:57 on 13 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:-->RON..now, you no better than that. If we all got along, this would be a boring place to visit. Glad you had such a good time last night. Why were your faces stuck together? Was it cold and your tongues got frozen? LOL! - 15:53:42 on 13 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:-->RON..how's this for a topic to debate: Why in hell would someone need 4 cars???? Is it true when they say "The only thing that seperates the men from the boys is the size of their toys!"? - 15:56:33 on 13 Dec 97 GMT

Bill..:OPEN,I just love this time of the year…Two parties completed the last two nights and one more to attend tonight. Concerning recent postings, the my country, my race, or my ego---is better than yours---discussions here are only natural and apart of the paradoxical objectivity of nature, IMO. Nature dictates that we organize, procreate, and survive; this process unfortunately involves overcoming and destroying that which may prevent us from fulfilling this determinant of nature. This objectivity is true on a cellular (micro) level and on an ego (macro) mind level. To stand still is to be eroded away and die by the determinate in nature that we call "entropy." It's survival of the fittest my friends whether we like it or not! If we are to remain here (alive), we have no choice but to compete, organize, and overcome our environments. Reality is relative to the observer, and this subjectivity of higher intelligence justifies our relative positions in this competitive process. There is no "right" or "wrong," just survival, IMO. The innocences in nature always suffers whether it's animal, plant, or human (women, children, and weaker races). Do I feel bad about what my ancestors potentially may have done to the Indians, Blacks, or ….? Absolutely not! I personally am not responsible for what another person chose to do, whether it's my own sons or some distant relatives. A black friend at work told me once that I have personally benefited from my ancestors' actions and therefore I am responsible for correcting this wrong (i.e. slavery). My response was, did you have indoor plumbing in your house growing up? How much cotton did you pick growing up? I grew up very poor and lived in my late grandfathers' old farmhouse with no insulation or heat (except an old fireplace) and he had a more comfortable childhood than I did. Also I pointed out that his own ancestors participated in slavery and even sold their own race. Anyone who's present thinking is a prisoner of reliving past wrongs, is IMO destined for an unhappy and frustrating life. I think it's unfair to hold anyone responsible in the present---that may be a christian say---for what past christians may have done. I try to only live in the present and judge the present actions of people on a case-by-case basis. People did what they did in the past to survive and nature set-us-up! - 16:16:49 on 13 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:-->BILL..well said. But we must be able to relate to the history to ensure that it does not repeat itself. - 16:34:31 on 13 Dec 97 GMT

Bill..:RON, You should have seen the two intoxicated young girls sitting next to me last night. They were stuck in everybody's face and singing and dancing. I was waiting for them to strip. You would have loved it as I did! I like extroverted women. - 16:38:25 on 13 Dec 97 GMT

Bill..:JOETTE, I agree as long as history is used as a tool to improve our lives and not a stick to beat everyone up with. Have you gone to any good parties lately? - 16:40:54 on 13 Dec 97 GMT

James--->Joette:I have four automobiles because I like to restore and customize classics. It is a test of skill, mechanical ingenuity, patience and a source of general pride in my own skills and craftsmanship. Additionally, I believe these are good values and skills to have. I believe that sharing this experience with my sons as they grow older will help to develop a stronger relationship between us as well as help them develop an appreciation and value for hard work. - 17:01:28 on 13 Dec 97 GMT

RON...--->Joette...: I have to side with James on the four cars. Oh, two of which actually function. There are too many male humans today that don't understand the operations of the modern automobile. I believe all children (male and female) should learn the mechanical skills required to maintain their own car. James and his wife are very capable people in this respect and I know James' wife can rebuild most anything in a modern car. You can only respect people that have the courage and time to undertake such a pastime. I wish I had more time to spend kepping my truck in perfect working order. Keeping your vehicles longer keeps or landfills less full, require less mining for ore, and good maintenance keeps them from poluting the environment. Unlike some Americans, restoring older cars is a respectable enterprise, unlike stealing money from our elders for the hope of everlasting life, doing drugs as a pastime, or building a new chemical plant in urban Pakistan. - 17:19:42 on 13 Dec 97 GMT

RON...--->BILL...: I'm looking for a long lasting relationship with a quality woman. I do enjoy fast flirting and the thrill of the chase but, a glorious fuck with a drunken girl is not where I'm heading. What would Allah think? Nature is against sex for pleasure too. I would rather spend a few hours reading to my son than spending that time chasing a woman that only wants to borrow my penis. - 17:23:41 on 13 Dec 97 GMT

Bill..:RON, You're right, I suppose. I have, and have had, a long lasting (27 years) relationship with a good woman which I plan on keeping, as long as she will have me. I guess it just brought back old memories. For me it's just a change from the norm and still just light-hearted fun. Of course I was a little jealous when my wife sat on Santa's lap. He's such a dirty old man! Or is it just me? - 18:00:19 on 13 Dec 97 GMT

RON...--->BILL...:Unfortunately, she's going steading with some Goober I call, "Herb". His real name is something else but, he looks like a "Herb" to me. She's torn now, and I'm too old to play from the outside, so I guess I should've chased the younger redhead from Austin last night. I like Sandra, I just dislike games even more. Yeah, Santa is a dirty old man, notice he surrounds himself with waist high workers with flatheads with the ability to transform into outer objects, like uh, pizza. I'll find my soulmate, hopefully before all our souls are dead. - 18:40:45 on 13 Dec 97 GMT

RON...--->ALL...topic?:Here's a good one...has the religious practise of marriage actually lead to the decline of morals? Should religion step back up to the plate and make marriage a more lasting institution? Do we need "one-world" religion or set of values to bring back the family and marriage? - 18:44:15 on 13 Dec 97 GMT

RON...--->Joette...: The distinction between Men and Boys lies only in the behavior of each during a crisis. The size of your toy has no bearing on manhood. At the base of most men's toy cravings is a deep rooted insecurity. Women are similar with shopping. Although I enjoy shopping too. James could have a worse hobby, like shooting deer with high powered rifles. - 18:49:13 on 13 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene..since the mens are talkin mens talk:JOETTE- Where do you go shopping? I just love Eatons! I now have four blowdryers, four curling irons and four Easy-Do manicure sets! I've restored two of the older sets, aren't you just so jealous! I could be worse, I could have bought makeup that was tested on animals, but I didn't! While out mythmas shopping the other day, there were two guys in front of me with tight buns and around 22 years old. Of course they were even too young for my daughter! Oh well, I have a relationship with my partner of 16 years, if he'll still have me, ha ha! - 19:31:01 on 13 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene..damn split personalities!:JOETTE- Now my primary self says to my ego self "Girl, you don't need all those Easy-Do's!" then my ego self says to my primary self "I does too! How am I going to teach my daughter beauty lessons and the values of shopping if I don't have all these Easy-Do's"! What ever happened to one mind! - 19:37:45 on 13 Dec 97 GMT

Bill..:RON, A Goober you call Herb…huh! Be careful, Herbs---like St. John's Wort---have a way of seeding and transforming into Her-mans (Dicks)! And the size of my toy always had a bearing on my emerging manhood. Therein lies the source of man's insecurity---short rooted though it may be. Short flat heads are convenient for setting Santa's beer on, right? Concerning your topic, I think morals are simply evolved man-made laws that society in general has adopted to prevent the destruction of each individual. My morals are not tied to religion, but rather what I interpret as "self-preservation." Some of the do's and don'ts of religion can make it intriguing and exciting to do just the opposite. Bring back the family would first involve bring back ones' self-esteem. It would be impossible to respect family unless, and until, we first overcome our own insecurities and learn to respect ourselves. - 19:38:59 on 13 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene...on da mens and da boys:JOETTE- Nows the difference that I have noticed between the mens and the boys is the tight buns and abbs of the boys and the beer bellies and the fat sagging buns of the mens. How many blowdryers do you have? - 19:43:45 on 13 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene..30+ and balding..:JOETTE- There is also the hair or the lack of it...How many curling irons do you have? - 19:47:24 on 13 Dec 97 GMT

PETER:--BILL--Although you state it rather off-handedly, you are correct in that religious "morals" are not condusive to self preservation. I would say, since most people look upon religion as a moral base, throughout history the results have been devestating. You hit the nail on the head when you referred to self-esteem as a prerequisite for family relationships( or ANY relationship for that matter ) - 19:49:06 on 13 Dec 97 GMT

Bill..:MARLENE, Concerning 'one mind' and 'split personality' (in men), it's a matter of blood quantity. Man was shorted by nature in his total blood quantity. Man's mind shifts during sexual arousal as the limit quantity of blood exits the brain for other vital areas of body. I assume conscience follows as well! - 19:51:41 on 13 Dec 97 GMT

RON...--->Marlene...:You're must be the funniest bon-bon eater in all of Canada. So what if we want to talk a little man-to-man stuff? BILL...How many testicle scratchers do you have? - 19:57:14 on 13 Dec 97 GMT

Bill..:PETER, I agree. I am kinda bothered by the idea of, "one-world" religion or set of values to bring back the family and marriage. - 20:00:24 on 13 Dec 97 GMT

RON...--->BILL/PETER...: How do we elevate self-esteem in the masses? Religion teaches us that we are lower than pond scum and we can't even touch our gods with our imaginations. How can we overcome that first step? Is the media to blame? Is constantly being bombarded with beautiful images the core to our problems? So, just maybe, throwing out the TV after the honeymoon is a good place to start? Hmmm...therefore religion really has nothing to do with whether a marriage lasts or not? - 20:03:37 on 13 Dec 97 GMT

Bill..:RON, You make me feel like a boy again….i don't have any :~( - 20:03:38 on 13 Dec 97 GMT

RON...--->BILL...: I hear RONCO makes a wonderful Testicle Scratcher!! Battery powered, self cleaning, made of solid unobtainium, vasectomy attachment included, and it comes with a remote! Just in time for Christmas. - 20:08:26 on 13 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene...it's the season for bon bons..:Did you mens know you all start out females? BILL- That's your excuse? Not enough oxygen for all organs? - 20:09:07 on 13 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:-->MARLENE..thanks for the laugh after my less than pleasant foray into the land of the deceased and departed today. I hate to tell you that I only have one blowdryer, and I don't use a curling iron, as my hair is naturally curly. Mind you, I often use ozone unfriendly hairspray, but what the heck, the disintegration of the ozone layer won't completely happen until after my lifetime so it doesn't matter. BTW guys, the "toys" isn't an implication of the size of your penis (or your brain, the two are interchangeable). It is toys, nothing more, nothing less. - 20:12:21 on 13 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene..still stuck in dual:PETER- I think self-esteem is major even to one's relationship with the primary self and the ego self. What do you think? - 20:12:59 on 13 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- You haven't given me an answer on the Easy-Do? - 20:15:02 on 13 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:-->TO ALL.. a question of morals: it is socially acceptable for mid-life crisis males to take on younger women. Now, why is not so socially acceptable for women to do the same thing with young men. Afterall, do the studies not suggest that women reach their sexual peak around the age of 40, while men reach their's at around 20, so being the animals we are, shouldn't Marlene and I be sleeping with someone who can keep up with us? - 20:15:56 on 13 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene..on fluid fluctuations:JOETTE- Medical science should be able to come up with a better valve system for some unfortunate men(most men I know don't have the problem previously stated here, both organs seem to get enough of everything). I'm not convinced it's a lack of fluid are you? - 20:21:36 on 13 Dec 97 GMT

Bill..:RON, I don't think it's our responsibility to elevate self-esteem in the masses…. only ourselves. I don't think religion necessarily determines the lasting "quality" of a marriage. It may keep some married for the wrong reasons (fear). Religion does teach us that we are on a lower level from god, and is used by other men---who assume this god position---to control the masses to some extent. Personally I don't blame anyone or anything, although I have a lot of events in my past that would make it convenient to do so, for my present happiness or self-esteem. Like Marlene says in so many words, self-esteem is probably your personal relationship with your primary (nature connected) self. Self-discipline of the ego minds destructive tendencies. We gotta get back to nature boy! Lets all take it off and run wild in the woods. - 20:26:04 on 13 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- You know, that's a good point! Maybe chasing butterflies (younger women) has more to do with the ego self (mor-al) than the primary self (burnt out at 30+). - 20:28:03 on 13 Dec 97 GMT

PapaSam:JAMES. I'm delighted that you keep your four cars tuned up. Every little bit helps. I'm sure that the peasant pulling his plow and his counterpart sowing his rice are equally thrilled. Mind you, I am not setting myself up as a model or a standard of virtue. I enjoy the good things in life and partake of them as much as I can. But I do know that the problem exists. Let me present a little scenario. There ten men and ten trees living in a symbiotic relationship. Man breathes in oxygen and exhales carbon dioxide. The trees use the carbon dioxide and give off oxygen. Nice balance. Then a man cuts down a tree to build a house or light a fire to keep himself warm. Then he cuts down another. and another. Is it my imagination or is it getting a little difficult to breathe? But in real life the rain forests are shrinking little by little. The temperate zone forests are diminishing, despite the talk of reforestration. And the population keeps growing. The icing on the cake of course is industrial pollution. Don't look to me for a solution. I don't have one. - 20:30:16 on 13 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:PAPASAM- One of the big problems with population growth is religion. Be fruitful and multiply is still a mindset in many third world countries due to the rc's. - 20:35:02 on 13 Dec 97 GMT

RON...--->Marlene/Joette...: Whoa...whoa, whoa. I said I wanted a mature woman over 30, BILL was just using his imagination, and you two horny snowbabes jump in with sexual urges with boy scouts!! How can we possible get over this crap? I was trying to get responses to "what effect does society have on destroying marriage" and you gals chime in with "my ass sags, therefore I get to chase young guys"? And right after several self-esteem posts. Interesting. So, are we to believe that when a married woman catches a glimps of her sagging ass and lumpy thighs in the mirror, the marriage is off and she has to chase boy scouts. Hmmm....I do remember Susan remarking a question as why I didn't tell her her thighs had a few lumps in them. - 20:44:54 on 13 Dec 97 GMT

PapaSam:JAMES. After reading your posting to Marlene I wanted to tell you how exceedingly grateful I am to you for saving our site from oblivion. Frankly, you remind me of something from "Alice in Wonderland". I see you as the talking toilet bowl saying "You need me! You can't get along without me! If I weren't here where would you shit?" Well James, I have news for you. Billions of people don't have running water toilets. They use slit trenches. So you see, you're not indispensable. But don't go away. We need our laughs. By the way, wpuld you please explain what you meant when you said "No one can call themselves a christian by nature of their beliefs." So how do you define a christian? - 20:45:21 on 13 Dec 97 GMT

PETER:--RON--Well, the best place I can think of is in the schools. Teach 'em when they're young, and then some of that will eventually trickle into the adult community as well--where it alsocan be taught, much like environment issues, and computer skills are being taught nowadays. The kids seem to know one helluva lot more about stuff like this than the grown-ups do.BILL-Yeah, how often do we here this platitude about family and marriage "values". They are never specifically identified, and defined, and they never will be when attempted to do so in a religious or mystical realm. One religion? It will never happen. One rational code of ethics? Posssibly, but not for a long, long time. When this occurs, man will be civilized. - 20:54:46 on 13 Dec 97 GMT

PapaSam:ALL. What is all his talk of low self esteem, family values and insecurity? I was married for 46 years, my wife and I raised four children, and I have six gandchildren and a six year old great granddaughter. I have yet to hear a single word about low self esteem, not even from the six year old. I had a good marriage, my four children are all happily married. It is my opinion that if you enter a marriage based on mutual love, respect and trust all else falls in place, including family values. - 21:11:14 on 13 Dec 97 GMT

PapaSam:JOETTE. You are absolutely right. I think it would be admirable on your part to initiate young male virgins into the ins and outs of sex, as well as the sexual numbers theories, all 69 of them. Just don't charge them a tuition fee. - 21:15:58 on 13 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:RON- You didn't read my posts correctly! Reread! I, of course, was making fun of you guys and your chauvanistic posts. I have fair self-esteem... hell I have excellent self-esteem! PETER- Our kids are learning the art of treating each other equally. That's a No.1 moral in itself. I can proudly say my kids view all people as people. This wasn't only my husbands and my influence, it's the influence of our education system. One nice thing about Canada is that racism isn't allowed in our school or is sexism. Another +++ for Canada! - 21:16:00 on 13 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene...:Has anyone ever noticed how the mormons advertise family values on TV, like they invented the damn things? - 21:19:30 on 13 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:-->MARLENE..didn't I predict Ron's reaction exactly? Maybe women he knows have sagging bums and thighs, but I find the snowshoes and skis I have to use to navigate here in the wilderness keeps me quite fit! - 21:51:23 on 13 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:-->MARLENE..have you seen the one that has them pushing a video on "Quality Time"? Are they that stupid that they need video instruction on how to spend time with their children? - 21:56:10 on 13 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:-->enough of the jocularity! I would like a serious answer to the question I posed regarding male/female relationships. Why does society accept May/December romances for older men and younger women, but not the opposite? Can anyone answer this? Or at least think about it? - 21:59:24 on 13 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- I wasn't ignoring the question, Jim and I got our snowshoes out and went out for supper. Truthfully, it's been so warm here that we have only a couple of inches of snow left. It's supposed to be +2 tomorrow! Now..I think a male dominated world created the impression that it's not acceptable for older women/younger men. It's a chauvanistic thing. Males in the west find youthful women attractive. Look how they go on about weight gain etc. This isn't true in all cultures though. In fact Mohammad( and I do capitalize his name because he did live) married a woman much older than him. I think it's a west/northern european thing with men. I have no problem with either/or. - 22:51:42 on 13 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- I forgot to add that for people who were so opininated a few hours ago, you haven't heard any opinions from the peanut gallery on the question you posed. Hummmm.....maybe they honestly don't know LOL. Yes that commercial is ridiculous! As soon as something like that comes on Jim and I go..Grooaannn! - 22:55:14 on 13 Dec 97 GMT

Bill..:JOETTE, I don't know about the exact numbers, but I think you're correct that women reach their sexual peak later in life, as compared to men. I think humans evolved from animal like creatures and females probably took on more than one male to insure impregnation and survival of the species. This might explain why men, the same age as females, seem to be over and done with sooner than the female. Women seem to be slower to arouse, but stay aroused longer, compared to same-aged men. Older men tend to reach climax later than younger men do, and thus can allow the woman the time needed to become fully satisfied. If you want someone to "keep up with you," as you say, you might consider an attractive older man in good health that attends to your personal desires and needs. However, I see no reason why society should dictate what age's men and women have to be, for a sexual relationship to be socially acceptable. I think you should have every right to go after anyone over 18 years old---male or female. - 23:02:38 on 13 Dec 97 GMT

Grant $.02:Well I don't think the May-December thing is good in either direction. I think it's a case of one person trying to gain advantage through another's lesser experience/knowledge/wisdom, or at least liking the advantage of it. Not to say that I would ban it. Is this terribly backward and non-PC of me? - 23:53:44 on 13 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:-->GRANT..that is an excellent point, and one that I have never heard before. But is it a control thing? Or is it just some old fogey (male or female) trying to get back their youth vicariously? - 0:07:10 on 14 Dec 97 GMT

Grant:JOETTE-- I don't know if it's always a control thing. Maybe it's only feeling more comfortable with being spotted a few points intellectually and emotionally. Anyway, I think it is taking the low road for the older party. Avoidance of having your partner on an equal footing. Personally I prize a 50/50 relationship. Getting their youth back vicariously? Maybe there is reassurance when one can still run with the kids.? - 0:25:07 on 14 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene...it's compatibility for these two coupled with love:JOETTE and GRANT- Although this may be the case in some instances. I do know two couples that are very happy. Both relationships, the woman is 20 and 15 years older than the man. Both couples have children and both couples have been together over 10 years. - 0:27:03 on 14 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:GRANT- Why wouldn't you think it would still be a 50/50 relationship??? I suppose I truly don't understand this age thing. Anyhow, I have the last batch of shortbread in the oven then I'm watching the two hour Pretender special (I like the bossman's daughter on this show. She's just sooo mean!) and then The Practice. Later! BTW Joette, if you need an old-fashioned english shortbread recipe, I still make the traditional one. - 0:36:28 on 14 Dec 97 GMT

Grant:MARLENE-- I'm 42. If my partner were 22-27 I think I would have advantage over her. Maybe she would desire this. Maybe I would desire this. It would still not be a healthy relationship in my view. She would probably accept much of my judgement on faith, and I would probably begin to feel like an authority figure. Every case is individual and I'm generalizing. Possibly the difference would not be as great if we were older. - 0:55:24 on 14 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:-->GRANT..I probably agree with you, but in most instances, it is an older man/younger woman scenario. I am glad that Marlene's friends have broken the barrier, because when it is reversed like that, most people look at the relationship as though it is a perversion of some sort. That is what I don't understand, why it is okay one way, but not the other way. - 1:05:30 on 14 Dec 97 GMT

PapaSam:ALL. As far as I am concerned the only no-no's in sexual activity is sex with children and sex by force. If both partners are willing to engage in sexual activity and there is no mental impairment, go to it. Age of either sex partner should be no barrier. Laws about sexual activity are set by those in power, usually the male elders in a society. And that brings up a new subject. POWER. It is achieved by superior strength or superior cunning. Temporal power almost always goes hand in hand with religious power. The tribal chief has his shaman. The king or emperor had his cardinals and the pope. The concept of the Divine Right of Kings was hatched jointly. In later societies such as our the presidents have their Pat Robertsons and Billy Grahams who exert power by politics. Sex, of course has always played its part, from Cleopatra and Madame Pompadour to our modern day counterparts. - 1:11:45 on 14 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:-->PAPASAM/GRANT/MARLENE/BILL...like religion, I believe that we are outside the parameters set by society given your opinions about my question. I agree with you all. Now PAPASAM..who would be a modern day counterpart to Cleopatra? I guess Eva Peron would have fit that bill depending on what you think her agenda was, but are there others currently using their feminine wiles to gain power? I ask this as I am interested in your opinion. (but for now I have to get my snowshoes out and go for a trudge in the beautiful snowfall we are having and I'll look at your answer later if you have a chance to respond) - 1:48:45 on 14 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:Just me checking in between Pretenders. PAPASAM- I would imagine sleeping one's way to the top happens whether one is man or woman and one's superiors is man or woman. I suppose when I was posting to the question Joette posed I was thinking personal relationships for the happiness between two people. Otherwise I totally agree with you! For instance if there were 40,000 middle aged male yics and one 24 year-old atheist(or at least a thinker) that I was attracted to and they to me, I'd pick the 24 year-old. I suppose what I'm trying to say here, it's the relationship and not the age, color, status etc. but personal respect for one another. GRANT- I still don't understand why you'd have an advantage over her just because of age?? Look at it this way, if the woman were taller than you, would you feel she had the advantage, or if your IQ tested higher than hers would you have the advantage, or....do you understand where I'm coming from? Back to the movies! - 2:01:48 on 14 Dec 97 GMT

PapaSam:MARLENE. What you say about the RC church and its opposition to birth control is true. There are many organizations joined in the uphill struggle to help the women in third world and undeveloped countries by setting up clinics to teach the women and supply them with the contraceptive devices they so sorely need. PLanned Parenthood and Physicians for Reproductive Choice and Health come to my mind but there are others. I have seen the pictures of childrn still in their puberty carrying infants and already pregnant with another child. This is not by choice. They are victims. The volunteers do their best and are effective in the local areas in which they operate but it is a very small drop in a very large bucket. - 2:24:46 on 14 Dec 97 GMT

PapaSam:JOETTE.Modern day women in the corridors of power? How about Thatcher, Marcos, Gandhi and the Pakistani leader, whose name escapes me for the moment. Actually I was referring to the "powers behind the throne" - the women who exerted their influence by virtue of their sexuality. There are also men powers behind the throne, such as Rasputin and whoever it was who used to go walking with Queen Victoria. (I don't know whether they were doing anything else but walking.) Not to mention Catherine the Great of Russia who had many powers behind the thrown. (That's why they had so many Grand Dukes in Russia, although omly Catherine would know just how grand they were.) - 2:43:44 on 14 Dec 97 GMT

RON...(stuck in a server room on a cold night somewhere in Houston)..--->Joette...: May/December romances...hmmm. I no longer believe society excepts one side over the other. I know of a 41 year old female I used to work with brought over a 19 year old male to our pool to "play" with. She confessed to me later thaey had done *the nasty* several times. She was happy, I was happy for her, big deal. Men have always been excepted for going after younger females because, hey, we own everything else. I agree with BILL about the age thing. I think those ridiculous figures were written by some female just dumped by her husband. I'm 35 and I'm as horny as ever. I've seen articles (with illustrations) depicting the male penis as loosing it's, uhm, "angle of attack" over the years, falling to parallel with the floor at 38 or so...hey, excuse me but my *love pole* stands straight up, points North, raises the flag, burps my belly button. Get my drift? Those articles are bullshit, written by women with nothing better to do than make up science in the name of vengence. IMHO. I think the whole May/December issue has been over blown by TV and the movies anyway. It's a sore subject and Hollywood loves sore subjects. Last night I saw a older couple (60's like you two gals) dancing their asses off, happy as new gold. They had the spark and they loved each other, twas clear. So, ... - 2:47:04 on 14 Dec 97 GMT

RON...--->PapaSam...:Write a damn book on how you managed to stay married for so long, raise wonderful children who are happily married with happy kids....and I'll buy the SOB. - 2:50:33 on 14 Dec 97 GMT

PapaSam:MARLENE,JOETTE. I yield to no one (outside of the Canadian people) in my admiration of Canada.So why do the people in Quebec want to secede? Is it basically a question of French identity or is there a religious factor lurking in the background? - 2:59:41 on 14 Dec 97 GMT

RON...--->Joette...:The bottom line to the end of my 2nd marriage? Insecurity. Sue thought when we were first married that she could not measure up to me because I was 9 years older...she felt she couldn't measure up to my 1st wife because she believed I held her up to some bullshit *standard*, and finally, she felt she wasn't good enough to keep me in our bed, she continually excused me of having affairs. All due to insecurity. How do you teach self-esteem and security in the person you love? I always believed when you said those words, "I love you", you are placing your absolute trust in that person. Am I wrong or just stupid? - 3:04:38 on 14 Dec 97 GMT

PapaSam:ALL. Well, it looks like the battle between testosterone and estrogen has ended. They need each other. Age is not really important. Arguing with each other is fine and even healthy, but remember the primary rule: Never go to bed angry with each other. Use the peacemaker. - 3:07:53 on 14 Dec 97 GMT

RON...--->GRANT...: You're 42 and if she were 24-27, you would run the risk of becoming her second father instead of her lover. Humans in that age bracket are immature and insecure. Do you want to share your world with a woman, or do you want to RAISE a wife? I'd rather have a partner who's age is near mine....who sees the world threw eyes with my vision. - 3:10:36 on 14 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:-->RON..so you are looking for a clone of yourself? I, for one, would rather have a partner with some diversity, otherwise the relationship would stagnate quickly IMO. And as far as being wrong or stupid as you mentioned, neither. It's just unfortunate situations that we find ourselves in from time to time. We live, love and learn, and then we die. - 3:34:19 on 14 Dec 97 GMT

RON...--->Joette...: no, no, and no...I don't want to clone myself. The world is not ready for two people like me. I meant I would like to partner with someone close to my age because I've been threw all the BS that went with having the *younger #2 wife*. It's not worth the pain, trust me. Having a loving partner is always important to all of us but, joining someone with possibly similar outlooks is a great starting point. People in my age bracket are more worried about saving enough for retirement. The 20's age group is more interested in buying that new sports car, or where they're going to find cocaine tonight. Savvy? I enjoy diversity as much as you, that was well defined in _Mars and Venus on a Date_. Diversity allows us to feel as if we've lived some of the experiences our mates have lived. Peeking into the life of another human is a fun and eye-opening experience, especially if you get to sleep with them. - 3:42:22 on 14 Dec 97 GMT

Joette (french by birth, english by thought):-->PAPASAM..I promised yesterday that I wouldn't discuss politics anymore (it being my particular area of interest so I may come across a little too pedantic from time to time), so I will give you only a brief historical view of why some of those is Quebec want to secede. The population as a whole in la belle province do not want to secede, as there have been two referendums held, and the majority wanted to remain in Canada. However, there are those that believe that Quebec is getting short shrift from our federal government, in that they believe they should be given distinct society status due to their heritage and french language. It is not a religious rebellion at all (that is happening in Newfoundland, but that is a different issue). Throughout the short history of our nation, there have been skirmishes between the anglophones and francophones, but it did not really come to the forefront of national concern until 1967, which was our centennial year. At that time, the world's fair was being held in Montreal, and there was an underground movement afoot that invited Charles DeGualle to visit from France. Well, his mantra at the time was "Vive la Quebec, Libre!" which excited the few soverignists at the time, and then began picking up momentum. It was a very embarrassing time for our country. The push was on and the door was open for the soveriegnists, and it has escalated ever since. When the Parti Quebecois was formed in the '70's, they had a very wise leader, Rene Leveques, who was as charismatic and intelligent as one would hope a leader to be, and they were elected into provincial parliament. There was a radical uprising by an organization called the FLQ, the like of which our country had never seen, and a politial kidnapping and assassination that threw the country under martial law. The rest of Canada was shocked and disgusted, and any sympathy for the sovereignists dissapated. However, the issue of seccession never disappeared, and as more anti-anglo laws were introduced in Quebec, the less the rest of the country wanted to hear about it. So, Quebec started feeling like nobody cared about them anymore, and several years later, after other ineffective parties held the legislature, stronger and more passionate soveriegnists came aboard. In 1992, a first ministers meeting was held and drafted what is known here as "The Meech Lake Accord", which would have all citizens vote on whether Quebec should be recognized as a distinct society, and be granted special favours by the federal government. The national referendum came up with a clear "No way, Jose!" and so two years ago there was another referendum held in Quebec, which the majority showed in favour as wanting to remain in Canada. But that has not convinced the sovereignists, who quickly accused immigrants of destroying a fair vote. That didn't win any popularity contests for them. Anyway, this is getting longer than you probably wanted, but Quebec pays less taxes that other provinces, their citizens receive more money in transfer payments per capita and they are allowed to discrimate in their language laws, but they still think they are getting the short end of the stick. The rest of Canada is tired of their whining, and unfortunately there are many who think the quicker they leave, the better. You see, with all this internal unrest, foreign investors aren't interested in doing business here, and in Quebec, most of the large corporations have moved out because they are tired of not knowing from day to day what might happen there, therefore the unemployment rate in Quebec is horrendous. The Parti Quebecois don't think it is their fault though, they figure it's just the rest of Canada discriminating against them. Also, with their secession threats, there is another concern. There are many aboriginal bands in Quebec who have stated that if the province does secede, they will want to remain a part of Quebec, therefore the province would have to be partioned, and the majority of the land would have to remain in Canada. Therefore Quebec would be completely surrounded by Canada, and would have not port of entry for shipping etc. I forgot to mention that their brilliant scheme of seceding would also include Quebecois to still be able to use Canadian passports, keep the same currency, and be entitled to federal transfer payments (now who in their right mind would ever consider those little favours for what is supposed to be a newly independant nation?) I hope this has helped you a little bit, and now I must give my fingers a break. - 3:57:30 on 14 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:-->PAPASAM..the above should state that the aboriginal want to stay in Canada, not Quebec.... - 4:02:47 on 14 Dec 97 GMT

RON.....:zzzzzzzzzzz why don't we just invade and cut the damn place into states....zzzzz - 4:05:18 on 14 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:PAPASAM- Joette has outlined the problem very well! Thanks Joette! The rest of Canada is sick sick sick of Quebec being the spoiled child! RON- Go to $^**! 6O's sheesh! I think you meant to say accused instead of excused, non? LOL! JOETTE- I agree, diversity is a big attraction and it does keep things interesting. The main things, though, I need to have in common, like strong personal beliefs or unbeliefs. Mainly as Ron pointed out, I need someone with maturity and self-esteem. Where I disagree with Ron is here, age has nothing to do with maturity or self-esteem. - 4:15:27 on 14 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:-->MARLENE..I think Ron is feeling threatened by us, and that is why he is taking every and any opportunity to insult us. Sorry Ron, but we are real snow babes. You see, this cold weather keeps us well preserved (and BTW, there is a mere one year difference in my age and yours, so if you think I am old, take a look in the mirror!) - 4:20:25 on 14 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:-->RON..do you find world history that boring? Aren't you happy that you can now have a conversation about something that doesn't involve cars and sex? - 4:22:32 on 14 Dec 97 GMT

RON...--->Joette...:Oh Joette, stop playing around. You want me, admit it. - 4:26:43 on 14 Dec 97 GMT

Jo Snow:-->oh alright Ron, I admit it. I'm so glad to get it off my chest and to let the whole world know. LOL! - 4:34:33 on 14 Dec 97 GMT

RON...(having my V8 dick implant new week)...--->Marlene...:Yeah, accused not excused. That would never happen. So, I need some good female advice...not advice from a *good* female, good advice from a mature female. Ok, here goes...the gal my face was stuck to last night is 32 y.o., redhead, mature, professional, sexy, and we are equally attracted to each other. The first day we met, we played eye tag all day on two floors of this new site I'm setting up for 240 employees. We caught each other spying around corners and such. We both have high titles in our company and our attraction is impossible to keep quiet. We are not officially *together* but people call her office looking for me, get it? Anyway...here's the needed advice part....before last night she was saying her and Herb were an item but this morning she admits she REALLY likes me. I like her too. Herb works for another division of our company and he's a long time friend of Sandra's. I played me cards this morning over the phone with Sandra and I would like to know from you if I did the correct move. What would you do in my shoes? A) Back off, B) Go for it, or C) Fill in the blank...??? - 4:35:52 on 14 Dec 97 GMT

RON...damn...neXT week I supercharge my loins...:Pardon the "me's" and "my's"....I get them confused. JOETTE...I'll have a new trimmed down photo of me on my webpage soon. You'll have to cold shower until then...LOL...(smirk) - 4:39:05 on 14 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:RON- Are you asking moi? If so, if she ain't committed to Herbie (which is a shitty name to be stuck with, poor guy) then she's likely looking for someone she can get into. Might be you, might not, you won't know unless you give it a try, will you? My motto is if you want it, them get it while you can (I lie, it's words to a son) but it's good advice, who knows what tomorrow will bring or not bring....Good night atheists! - 5:04:05 on 14 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene oops!:RON- corrections should be "then" instead of them and "song" instead of son. I must be tired! - 5:06:37 on 14 Dec 97 GMT

PapaSam:JOETTE. Thanks for your excellent picture of what the situation is in Quebec. You did a great job. - 5:09:15 on 14 Dec 97 GMT

PapaSam:RON. I hope you don't mind a litle criticism. (It doesn't matter if you do because you're getting it anyway.) You make too many assumptions. Here are a few. "people in my age bracket are most worried about" "The 20s are more interested in-" "Humans in that age bracket (24-27) are immature and insecure." These are all generalities which are based on your own feelings. Speak for yourself, Ron. Say "I think" or "I believe". Now on the critique of your 2nd marriage. "She thought she could not measure up to me." "She felt she couldn't measure up to my 1st wife" "She believed I held her up to some bullshit standard" "She felt she wasn't good enough to keep me in our bed" It's nice to see that you were a mind reader. She thought - She felt - She believed -. I am not a psychologist or psychiatrist but I get the feeling that you are the one who is insecure. The last item I mentioned - "She felt she wasn't good enoough to keep me in our bed" Did you ever stop to think that with all your horniness and your (self proclaimed) exceptional rigid digit that maybe you weren't good enough to keep her in your bed? I am not going to write a book, but I'll give you a few tips on how to start a happy marriage. You will both have to love, respect amd trust each other. If any of those ingredients are missing forget it. If all you want is sex you should go to some professional who will cater to your needs. Finally, and I don't intend to offend you, I suggest you seek counselling from some qualified therapist. - 5:56:00 on 14 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:-->PAPASAM..and I appreciate your interest in learning about Canada. Since we are neighbours, I think it is important. - 23:16:46 on 14 Dec 97 GMT

PapaSam:RON.As long as I'm in a critical mode I will point out a problem with your choice of words. When speaking the use of 'except' for 'accept', and 'excuse' for 'accuse' can slip by because of the similarity in sound. In writing the difference in meaning takes away from the sense of what you are trying to say. It's probably a regional thing. Some people I know have the habit of saying 'ax' instead of 'ask', such as in "I axed him a question." No offense meant. - 23:34:17 on 14 Dec 97 GMT

PapaSam:JOETTE,MARLENE. Every time I listen to the weather report lately, I keep hearing about a cold front coming down from Canada. Would you do me a favor and try to direct the cold front in a more easterly direction? Yhanks. Now JOETTE. As I said before, your posting on Quebec was top notch and I would really like to get the lowdown on Newfoundland. Please excuse my nitpicking, but I don't want Ron to think I'm playing favorites. I know what Francophobes and Anglophobes are, and I know know what Francophiles and Anglophiles are but what ar Francophones and Anglophones? Or was that a typo as I suspect it was? - 23:53:45 on 14 Dec 97 GMT

PapaSam:ALL. A riddle. I wouldn't make this posting if you weren't so absorbed with sex. I am normally a Clean old man. What do you call a small Eskimo with a hard-on? Are you ready for this? A frigid midget with a rigid digit. - 0:03:01 on 15 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:-->PAPASAM..twas no type. If, in Canada, your first language is anglais, your are an Anglophone. If your first language is francias, you are a francophone. You see, our education taxes are based on first language, as well as religion (you either support public education or Catholic schools). At least that is the way in my province, and so I will not speak for the way Marlene pays her education taxes. As far as what is happening in Newfoundland, up until a few months ago, the Roman Catholic Church had full control of all education in that province, therefore non-RC students were still getting religion based education. This has gone on since Newfoundland joined Canada in 1949. There has been the occassional concern raised about how the church was directing its education to its students, and in a referendum held in that province (we are very big on referendums in this country), the majority of residents of Newfoundland voted to have both public and separate school boards, so that non-RC students can have a regular, non-denominational type education. Naturally, this takes vast amounts of tax money out of the church coffers, and so the church is now challenging the constitutionality of the vote. You see, in our constitution, Catholics have special recognition, which goes back to the days when RC's were discriminated against before our confederation. Hope this helps. - 0:17:30 on 15 Dec 97 GMT

PapaSam:JOETTE. Well, you've killed two birds with one posting. I had never heard the terms used before beecause it appears to be unique to Canada. I found your information on Newfoundland quite enlightening. We have parochial schools, but we have managed to keep our public schools out of the hands of the reliigious right. They are doing their damndest to knock down the wall between church and state by whatever means they can, and we're doing our best to keep it there. So far we've been successful but we have to watch the sneaky bastards. Now some good news for our side. In the city of Madison, Wisconsin (just south of Ontario) an atheist group put up a "Winter Solstice" display complete with a message next to some holiday displays. Good idea. Maybe we'll see more of it next year if we just get over our inertia. - 3:57:31 on 15 Dec 97 GMT

5500+ complete books online. 100's more linked.:Grant: OPEN-- If ya'll knew about this, why the heck didn't you tell me? - 4:04:01 on 15 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:-->GRANT..I still prefer an actual book. There's something awkward about falling asleep with a computer on your face...:( - 11:52:13 on 15 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:--->Dare I say it out loud? Did we finally lose Richard? - 11:55:19 on 15 Dec 97 GMT

Grant:JOETTE-- I agree but my book fund just got relief, and I can test drive too. - 13:18:17 on 15 Dec 97 GMT

Grant:JOETTE-- Speaking of books, I finally broke down and blew $6 on a modern translation of the b book. No more absurdity of reading it in old English. - 13:29:40 on 15 Dec 97 GMT

Bill..:"Horny snowbabes" ??? hahaha! You crack me up! That's kinda "cool" though, don't you think? Sorry girls!!! Just a male xmas wish list here. Hey I am 52, so 35 to 50 year olds are young to me. At my age though, I can take it or leave it. I'm not as controlled by the constant desire or thought anymore (well, almost!). Most people guess that I am about ten years younger though. I'm not sure whether it's the low weight, full hair, or just immature thinking. Age is all in the mind I think! I think I would like to die on the "down stroke" though. Didn't you tell me once that you were of Italian descent? I heard once that the Italian male formula for a potential wife's age was half his age plus 7. Is this true? I'm not exactly sure why my wife and I have had a long marriage, but I think part of it is that we give each other a lot of freedom. I never stand in her way professionally or socially. She took an Alaskan vacation/cruse with her younger sister once and I never questioned it…after all it was her money. I have told her from the beginning that I would never participate in making her life unhappy, by staying in some sick relationship; if it ever came to that point, we should both part ways. According to the Meyers Briggs test, we are exact opposites in many ways. She is an extreme extrovert and me an extreme introvert…, although I participate in extroverted things (parties, speeches, etc). It's just that she has to have people around, and I am perfectly content to be alone. Sometimes I get tired of all the friends and family around. Ron, I couldn't get on here yesterday so am posting this morning. We went to some friends' house yesterday afternoon and then Ron (not you of course) and I went to see the Pensacola Ice Pilots play hockey last night. - 14:05:30 on 15 Dec 97 GMT

Bill..:RON, That last post was to you! - 14:06:24 on 15 Dec 97 GMT

Bill..:JOETTE, Very informative and honest information about Canada. It's true, we in the south, know very little about the north. I think people are people and generally there are good and bad where ever one goes. - 14:30:45 on 15 Dec 97 GMT

Steven:PAPASAM<<>> I have been stressing out for two days on my little quib about colostomy bags. I want to apologize for that, I crossed the line. Please accept my apologies. As far as the war in the Pacific etc.. I did not go through the things you went through and did not live during that time period. All my knowledge comes from books concerning the war and that is not always enough. There are some things we may not agree on but if we disagree in the future I will not resort to unecessary remarks. - 14:40:26 on 15 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:BILL- I don't think it's a question of good or bad people. It's culture. Unlike the US melting pot, Canada is a cultural mosaic. In the reat of Canada, for instance, one can put a sign on his/her business in any language. In Quebec, it's french only. It would be similiar for the US if Alabama wanted to separate but still wanted all the benefits it's recieving from the US. - 14:45:47 on 15 Dec 97 GMT

Steven:JAMES<<>> as far as your concerned, I would think that everyone would agree in the fact that you are a moron. JAMES leave that adress in Houston for I will be in the area. I wouldn't mind stopping by and takeing you up on that challenge. When I think of you I imagine a trailerpark, belt buckles, trucks, confederate flags, life supply of ketchup, Oral Robert reruns, Dukes of Hazard boxers, marlboro miles, and a bible. So let me know what trailpark in Texas City you live in so I can stop by and visit. :-} - 14:46:09 on 15 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene...goodmorning:STEVEN- Hey, guy, that's right on! And your right! The books don't always tell the actual story. I think we all know of a book that really screws everything up and GRANT paid $6 for it LOL (joking Grant!). - 14:49:59 on 15 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:ALL- No snowbabe here, I hate the snow but love the weather this year. Yesterday it was +6 and today the forecast high is +4. Not only that, I'm being nice to fellow canuks and sending the warm weather south-east to Joette and Peter. - 14:53:06 on 15 Dec 97 GMT

Steven:MARLENE<<>> for awhile here in Texas there was a group of people called 'The Republicans of Texas' who wanted seperation. Apparently when Texas joined the US there were some legal issues which did not bare out which made the joining of the union illegal, or something. I also understand that Texas is the only state in the US that has the legal right to withdraw from the US. Once again this is hearsay and speculation but I believe thems to be fact. - 14:55:56 on 15 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:STEVEN- I have heard something like that about Texas. Not only can I imagine James as a carbon copy of Dale on King of the Hill but I also imagine he's a showoff. I bet his cars are painted that red/orange with damn flames plastered over the front. Oh yeah, likely a "jesus saves" bumper sticker and a personalized licence plate too. - 15:18:22 on 15 Dec 97 GMT

Steven:MARLENE<<>> I like his approach to defending his heritage. What a joke. - 16:36:43 on 15 Dec 97 GMT

Carl:ANY: So, what are some other ideas that might replace a person's superstitious and mythical preferences? I always thought the opposite sex was the answer but you folks appear not so inclined? - 17:09:49 on 15 Dec 97 GMT

Carl:OPEN: One o'the local papers ran a story about cosmology, and apparently for the holiday season it made some references to BS in relation to the unknowns and tossed in the usual references folks hereabouts are familiar, aboriginal animisms, geo/heliocentisms, etc. But darn if it did not include the six days when god created this all. I was perplexed. May that lack of, be taken to mean that sober minds can be found in significant places of society? - 17:31:42 on 15 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:CARL- I'm not understanding your last post..?? Do you mean that the cosmology didn't include god? - 18:12:27 on 15 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:-->CARL..don't get your hopes up! I'm sure some good little xtian will notice the absence, and sue. - 18:12:38 on 15 Dec 97 GMT

George:Open....nice group. Wish I had time to get here more often. I hate xmas. It is ALL one big lie, money making scheme. Bah humbug! Religion is a widespread form of mental illness. And xmas brings it out at its fullest. - 18:39:50 on 15 Dec 97 GMT

RON...--->PapaSam...: No offense taken...btw, When I mentioned "She's feeling this or that, those were the words taken from her during counseling last year and from her mouth during arguments of our first year. I've spoken here on my insecurities before your arrival. Sorry you missed them, but I'm in no mood to rehash. - 18:55:13 on 15 Dec 97 GMT

Steven:GEORGE<<>> I heard a term from MARLENE that I use now, 'Mythmas'. Isn't it beautifull! - 19:05:18 on 15 Dec 97 GMT

Carl:GEORGE: Lets not forget that we as a society have chosen to emphasise the entrepreneural nature of humanity and that it is believed capitalism best serves that notion. God, et.al., these things are along for the ride, this is something about which religion confuses itself. MARLENE, i was disappointed the report did not include, since it inscribed of those other accounts of BS, the myth of creation as it appears in todays western society as another foible of thought by some of humanity. As I looked at my post again, I don't recall where i was headin'. - 19:09:27 on 15 Dec 97 GMT

Sandra:I am the one that Ron spoke of and would like to put my comments in, since I am being discussed. Ron is correct in saying that I am interested in him and we enjoy each others company very much. Herb (as Ron calls him - his name is Steve) is a very wonderful person too and I like him. The reason mine and Ron's faces were stuck together that night was due to a lot of alcohol on an empty stomach. I am a very conservative person and that night I kind of stepped out of my comfort zone. Bottom line what took place was wrong and I know that. But, doesn't change the fact that I am interested in Ron. But, (as Ron will tell you there's a lot of those in our discussions) I will not break up with someone for a possibility of something with someone else. It's not right, however is it wrong for us to maintain a plutonic friendship or is it even possible?.....sorry for the book, 1st time ever writing on the net. - 20:26:29 on 15 Dec 97 GMT

RON...--->Marlene...: ...did I mention she's sexy too? I argee...I don't have the time to waste saying, "should've, could've, would've, so I'm going for it. - 20:36:51 on 15 Dec 97 GMT

PETER:--GEORGE--What's wrong with making money? - 20:37:54 on 15 Dec 97 GMT

RON...--->STEVEN...: You'd be very dissappointed when you find James...he lives in a beautiful home of his design in a very swank northern area of Houston. No where near Texas City, or Channel View, or Vidor... - 20:41:29 on 15 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:STEVEN- See, didn't I tell you he's a show off! - 20:59:27 on 15 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:GEORGE- Nice to have you back. I guess I don't feel the same way as you do about mythmas. I love it! Of course, I have two kids and mythmas is the time we have a big meal together, laugh and joke together and basically enjoy the day. We buy for each other if we can afford to (of course I make sure I can) but the kids don't have a lot of cash but it isn't a finacial hardship. I don't celebrate the myth of jesus but the myth of santa because it's a positive myth. - 21:04:00 on 15 Dec 97 GMT

Carl:ANY: Just spent a few minutes reading some o'the R.Ingersol compositions. That ol'fella put together some rough on-religious-believer ideas. I got a kick outta the way he cuts up their holy scripture as much as when I first saw his writings and they still make me shake my head in disbelief. How and why are there christians still? - 21:04:57 on 15 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene..welcome..:SANDRA- I still feel sorry for poor Herb, stuck with a name like that! Are you posting because you want to express your beliefs or the lack of them or just to let us know that your not ready to sell the farm and marry Ron? Remember, real estate always holds it's value LOL! - 21:08:18 on 15 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene..:CARL- Is there a place on the net that we can read some of R. Ingersol? I haven't heard of him but I always love to hear someone's comments on xtianity. On the subject of your last post, I see the psychics are using god more and more in their TV advertisements. It may have something to do with competition from a xtian company promoting god's plan over psychic plans. - 21:12:56 on 15 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:GEORGE- I agree with you that belief that a mythical creature is real is a form of mental illness, very widespread, I might add. It's a form of coping with a phobia, I would suggest. - 21:15:40 on 15 Dec 97 GMT

Steven:RON<<>> thank you for narrowing the search. Where he lives does not change my opionion of him. Waste of skin is a waste of skin regardless of their financial income or place of dwelling. - 21:19:24 on 15 Dec 97 GMT

Carl:MARLENE: this is the table o'contents and R.Ingersol appears down on the list, enjoy. - 21:27:56 on 15 Dec 97 GMT

Sandra....Marlene:Thanks.....I guess I just wanted a chance to give my side or just ramble on for a little. Ron is a very sweet guy, but (here it is again) our timing wasn't very good. But, I hear what you are saying about realestate holding it's value...I have no doubt that a certain piece of property would be worth the investment. Again, it's a matter of timing..... I guess my real question that I am posing is, is it possible for a man and a woman to have a plutonic friendship without it going further at some point in time by one, the other or both? - 21:37:59 on 15 Dec 97 GMT

RON...--->STEVEN...:Now hold on, who's being a biggot now? James, even though he's very annoying and opinionated most times, is a honorable human. Just don't try to argue a point with him unless armed with a large mallet, or suitable influencer. - 21:40:17 on 15 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene...Dr. Marl:SANDRA- Just kidding on the real estate thing. From what I know of Ron over the past two years, he seems like a nice guy. I suppose the answer to your question would be, yes it's possible but platonic relationships normally involve "just friends". I have a few male friends that I wouldn't dream of sleeping with mainly because for one reason, I'm not sexually attracted to them and for another reason, I don't think Jim would be impressed. I don't know, if I were sexually attracted to someone and I was single, I'd say to hell with platonic relationships. CARL- Thanks, checkin it out right now--> - 21:50:35 on 15 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:One more thing...speaking of doctors, has anyone ever listened to that Dr. Laura?? - 21:51:50 on 15 Dec 97 GMT

Bill..:SANDRA, Welcome! It's difficult at best to make judgements on other people's relationships. I personally would look for some mutual benefit in any relationship that I might entertain whether it's business or personal. Those are the only relationships that are worthwhile, IMO. Opposites attract in many cases and maybe "conservative" and "Ron" just might be synergistic. As for platonic, Ron seems to need a woman he can talk to; however, "time" may be the limiting factor. For me, at some point, the woman would have to choose. - 21:57:01 on 15 Dec 97 GMT

Carl:MARLENE: I just stopped scanning to read everyones posts, and heck! I'm surer than anything you'll have lots o'fun reading the writings of Robert Green Ingersol. I just took for granted that most if not all non-mystics knew that name, that site has perhaps one of the most complete collections of Ingersol that I have seen. The writings are somewhat dated, but then so is the bible and christianity so all still fits like a glove. - 21:58:05 on 15 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:--MARLENE..I have listened to her a lot, and oft times agree with her advice, but every now and then she lets religion slip in, as well as the outdated "Well, if you aren't married, you shouldn't be living together..." She's a bit of hardnosed bitch, just like me, so I like her more than dislike her. - 21:58:17 on 15 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene..and you can read it for me too..:CARL- Under which title on that page?? - 22:00:15 on 15 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:-->RON/SANDRA..I'm getting sort of embarrassed wathching you too try to rationalize a relationship/non-relationship in public. Don't you think you two should work it out together in private, or are you looking for permission? - 22:00:28 on 15 Dec 97 GMT

PapaSam:ALL. An excellent source for the names of non-religionists is "2000 Years of Disbelief". The following quote by H.L.Mencken is typical and of general interest. "The effort to reconcile science and religion is almost always made, not by theologians, but by scientists unable to shake off altogether the piety absorbed with their mothers' milk." The book, by James A. Haught is available from Prometheus Books. - 22:00:31 on 15 Dec 97 GMT

Bill..:STEVEN, Your apology to PS speaks well of you! - 22:04:36 on 15 Dec 97 GMT

Bill..:Shopping, Shopping, Shopping. I am almost finished. One dress for the misses said "Fabrique au Canada" and "Fabricado en Canada." Now I know it's made in Canada, but what's the difference between these two quotes? I think she's going to love the outfits I got for her this year. - 22:05:02 on 15 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene..:JOETTE- I admit, she does have some good advice but I find she really throws in her religious beliefs. I hate her laugh!!! There use to be a show that I could pick up called America talks to Bruce. He was good. As George has pointed out, the belief in something that isn't real leads me to find someone that does, lacking somewhere. Should she, as a doctor, be giving people advice based on her belief in religion? - 22:05:52 on 15 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:BILL- Ha ha! Made in Canada? I use to work in a sewing factory and as a driver also use to deliver and pick up loads of material. Most everything is "made" somewhere other than Canada. All that happens is that Canadians(and most who work in sewing factories here are not Canadians) slap the garment together and stick a "made in Canada" tag on it. - 22:11:16 on 15 Dec 97 GMT

RON...--->Joette...: Oh, shut up. I'm becoming embarrassed myself. - 22:13:47 on 15 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene..marked the name of the book down, thanks:PAPASAM- Isn't it something how even scientists can't face the reality of no god! The last thing I'd want to see is the "marriage" of religion and science. It would be the most dysfunctional (a word I hate and use only when I have to) relationship going! - 22:14:50 on 15 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:BILL- One's french one's spanish. - 22:17:07 on 15 Dec 97 GMT

RON...yikes...:I pray Susan still finds man-made a place to avoid. Gulp! - 22:17:53 on 15 Dec 97 GMT

Bill..:Thanks Marlene; i'm just a dumb American that only speaks one language. - 22:26:49 on 15 Dec 97 GMT

Bill..:OPEN: Age, life, and relationship seem to be the topic this week for some reason. Old age is something we all must deal with and I admire people like Papasam and my mother, who is 84 BTW, that stay involved with life and have positive outlooks towards life despite their ages. My mother, despite her frailty and physical problems, has the most beautiful smile and looks forward to every family occasion as though it was for the very first time. She is usually the hit of most get-togethers and says some of the funniest things….a lot impart because she can't hear very well. She told me the other day that a total stranger told her how beautiful she was. I think attractiveness is subjective and mostly a mental thing that emanates from one's self-esteem. Age and life are things that humans have little control over. The objectivity of life reminds me of a fast moving train. We suddenly appear inside near the front looking out to what's ahead. Each year that passes we shift one car to the rear into a somewhat different set of circumstances with different people. Of course there's no getting off alive and you can't change the direction or speed at which you're moving. Your only freewill is to organize and rearrange within each car and try to enjoy the ride. At some point you realize that you're near the back of the train and looking back at where you've been, to some degree. I'm not sure what the point is I am trying to make here, but we're all on this train together---we should forgive and understand our helpless acquaintances for their mistakes and limited-nest---and I still have a lot I need to learn from my mother before she gets off. Well, gotta go make supper as my wife is bring her Secretary' kids home to free her (Sec.) to study for her finals…Bye! - 22:29:42 on 15 Dec 97 GMT

Carl:MARLENE: scroll down to "articals of interest" go to Robert Green ingersol. - 22:30:41 on 15 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:-->MARLENE...we have several shirt factories in this city and they make the shirts from the start (Arrow, William Klein, etc.) The material is all made in Hamilton which is only about 45 minutes from here, so there are still some things actually made in Canada besides really fine beer. - 22:32:06 on 15 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:CARL- Thanks! - 22:32:44 on 15 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:-->BILL..life is something we have little control over?????? I disagree. Also, I find that many elder persons are patronized just because they are old. They are treated deferentially just because of their age. Well, years of life does not always equal wisdom, as most would have us believe. And nowadays, I don't consider Papasam to be a terribly old person, so no need to patronize him because he remains active. He is a normal person, interested in living life to its fullest, therefore no special dispensation should be cast in his direction. - 22:36:13 on 15 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:CARL- Thanks again! It was staring me right in the face! I downloaded some to read. - 22:37:12 on 15 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:-->PAPASAM..I made the above post with you as an example only. If I am correct, I would think that you would want to be treated the same as everyone else with less years of living under their belt. I just find that the love affair some have with senior citizens is a little too warm and fuzzy, and many very intelligent older folks are treated like they are kindergarten children, and it makes me embarrassed for them. - 22:40:18 on 15 Dec 97 GMT

RON...--->BILL...: Great analogy. You forgot to mention each year, the train moves faster until, one day, the train is moving so fast, we can only die if we leap from it. I would love to be near my father in his golden years. I have much to learn from him as well. So much to learn, so little time. - 22:43:34 on 15 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- Your absolutely right. I do love to listen to my Gram's account of the past just as my daughter likes to listen to my account of the 60's. But I like to listen to my daughter's account of now. She sees things very differently from what I do so I learn from her. All ages can teach and learn from each other. The one thing super intoverted me is not learned on is street life and street language. For instance, my kids told me what "hoe" means. Then again, my Gram showed me how to make cheese. - 22:44:04 on 15 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:-->BILL..I'm in a pissy mood, so I thought I would point out a mistake you made in a previous post before the Wizard of Words catches it (where is Adam these days) here goes: you can't be a dumb American that speaks only one language, because if you are dumb you can't speak at all. Therefore, you are merely a stupid American LOL! - 22:44:28 on 15 Dec 97 GMT

RON...--->Joette...: Pissy indeed. Try chocolate? There's a new pill out for those mood swings, ya know? - 22:59:14 on 15 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:RON!!!- Don't you dare start on that one!!! - 23:06:17 on 15 Dec 97 GMT

James--->PapaSam:I have serious doubts that the peasant wouldn’t take a tractor over his ox if he/she had the opportunity. Are you saying they perform their work this way to save the environment? Are trees the only source of Oxygen? Do we not replant trees? Who spills more oil, Man or Nature? What pollutes more a factory, ten factories, or an active volcano? I don’t have all the answers either and I am equally interested in preserving the environment and less interested in pointing fingers. - 23:23:28 on 15 Dec 97 GMT

James--->Marlene...:The biggest problem with population growth is not religion or the wrong interpretation of "Be fruitful and Multiply". In my mind being fruitful does not mean have more kids than you can feed, cloth, nurture and educate. I think it has far more to do with cultures. Cultures that make it profitable to have children, peasants still pulling plows who need 12 children to harvest their crops and the like. - 23:24:08 on 15 Dec 97 GMT

James--->PapaSam...:I don’t really care what you think I remind you of, but your gratitude is a welcome change though I am leery of its sincerity. I came very close to having to take care of things myself and was more than pleased when Ron decided to take over. I only mention it now, and have never mentioned it before specifically because I am not one who pats himself on the back, needs recognition from others, or feels indispensable. None-the-less, the facts remain unchanged an my efforts to keep this forum alive directly contradict the claims that have been made, now and in the past, that I am here to destroy the discussion. I would not think of going away. My day needs a bright spot and the laughs you folks provide are invaluable to me. Best wishes. - 23:25:18 on 15 Dec 97 GMT

James--->Marlene...:Racism and sexism are illegal in the US also, or have you not been told? - 23:25:55 on 15 Dec 97 GMT

James--->Steven...:The offer I made was for Peter, but how like you to invite yourself. We have a name for people like you but I had better refrain from using it. I think it's great watching you and Marlene try to figure out who I am and what I am about. I am getting an ache in my side laughing every time you folks try. You prove yourself a horrible judge of character with every attempt. I can understand why the both of you have such a hard time with most every subject. The stereo typical "red neck" you describe could not be further from reality in regards to my life style. It does however do an excellent job of illustrating your bigotry once again. Unlike Peter, where a calm rational discussion and dialog is possible, you would not be welcome. If would like to find me while returning to your trailer park home in Texas City, please do. Just remember in Texas that we have the right to kill for protection of life or property. BTW, Yes Texas is the only state that could legally succeed and in fact was the only state to ever be recognized as an independent nation. - 23:28:30 on 15 Dec 97 GMT

James--->Marlene...:Your imagination could not be further from reality. The cars that I enjoy building are put back together like they came off the showroom floor. I make a few modifications where technology has improved so that handling and performance will not let me down, but otherwise they are stock. It’s my wife who is the show off. She is into flames, and what the wife wants, the wife gets. Neither of us are into bumper stickers and I would have a cow if someone put one on my car. I have one bumper sticker on my truck. It reads "Washington, it ain’t your money". I am thinking about a personalized plate "DA BOSS" for my 70 Boss 302. - 23:29:55 on 15 Dec 97 GMT

James--->Marlene...:How does Ron’s post about my dwelling indicate that I am a show off? Try this one instead. This moron holds a 4.0 GPA with a full time course load while working full time in a prominent position, raising two children, running a business out of my home, tinkering with automobile restoration, maintaining daily drivers, dealing with all the home making chores, etc, etc., etc. All this from a previously 15 year old high school drop out homeless criminal who found god. I make a salary that most college grads dream about. Now that’s bragging if I do say so myself. - 23:32:10 on 15 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene..who doesn't see the universe as cold without a god..:For some people, if not most, god is the ultimate parental figure. One that never leaves them, one that never dies. I have a friend that's a doctor. We've discussed my lack of "need" for god. I grew up with a great aunt and uncle and although they loved me very much, they had their own daughter and I felt like an outsider. Although I remember feeling sad about it as a child, I grew up to be a very independent person. I read a lot of fiction, Stephen King, John Saul and Dean Koontz. I just started reading one of Kootz's never novels called _Sole Survivor_. There is a opening from the _Book of Counted Sorrows_ introducing the storyline. I suppose I really don't understand the sadness one feels if they had to give up god to reality. I'll write the introduction......."The sky is deep, the sky is dark...The light of the stars is so damn stark..When I look up, I fill with fear..If all we have is what lies here...this lonely world, this troubled place..then cold dead stars and empty space..Well, I see no reason to persevere..no reason to laugh or shed a tear...no reason to sleep or ever to wake...no promises to keep and none to make..And so at night, I still raise my eyes..to study the clear but mysterious skies...that arch above us as cold as stone...Are you there God, Are we alone?.._The Book of Counted Sorrows_. Yikes! This guy seems really at a loss, no? - 23:33:56 on 15 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene..how can I be wrong when I'm right?!LOL:JAMES- SO! I'm right, is the car that orangy-red too? - 23:39:55 on 15 Dec 97 GMT

Carl:MARLENE: While pondering your post on science and religion joining, it was up in he air until JAMES says he laughs at folks here? It is one of those times when one has to look at someone and wonder what is funny? His kind believe in the outrageous because that is all that can be done for or about the imaginary things clung to by his kind, his kind are the dangerous deadly ones and he laughs. If the idiocy that he and others- who have made the same choice he made, which is to believe their own imaginations, is sad and a long way from being laughable. Unfortunately, the sheer number of such creatures makes them dangerous to even each other, the example is your choice be it Ireland, the jew/arab thing, etc. The event of your choice, is it funny? His kind would love to pervert science into a nonthinking affair. - 23:43:29 on 15 Dec 97 GMT

Joette the ignorant slut (well, maybe a slut, but certainly not an ignorant one):-->JAMES..you sound like such a wonderful person (choke) (and I bet I make more money that you do), but you are still a fuckwit. Is the IRS aware of this home based business you operate? - 23:47:26 on 15 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:CARL- I think you've even heard some Perversions of Science on this discussion. The only thing is that they don't have that sexy computer image. Your right though, imagine what the US would be like in the future if xtian were warring against muslim which could be a possibility if the religious right were to run the country. - 23:48:04 on 15 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- If they are he's likely report himself. - 23:49:34 on 15 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene..correction:JOETTE- So many mistakes, I think I'll just rewrite it. If the IRS doesn't know, I'm sure James would report himself because it's not xtian to do things against the law! - 23:51:44 on 15 Dec 97 GMT

Adam BIG THINGS COME IN SMALL POTATOES:Howzit hangin', O page denizens? I started to skim old posts, but it was putting me to sleep, so I just though I'd check in. I do want to watch the 49ers/Broncos tonight, though, so I shant be aboot too long. - 23:53:56 on 15 Dec 97 GMT

Carl:MARLENE: If JAMES writes true a Boss 302, some minds need the protection of one those retard bike helmets because they are so poorly put together. I saw his post and well, for cryn'out loud. Later - 23:54:57 on 15 Dec 97 GMT

Adam YOU DAMN RIGHT I WANT SOME CHEESHZY POOFS!!:Jo: Are you up for a new SP this Wednesday (do you also get it on Wednesday?). Kick Assch! - 23:55:38 on 15 Dec 97 GMT

da hoe from da nort..:JOETTE- Which corner you takin tonight girl? Don't pick up pip squeaks in restored orangy-red cars, sportin flames and personalize licence plates, they be jesusin' you to death! - 23:56:16 on 15 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:-->ADAM..how could all of James' wisdom from the weekend possibly put you to sleep? - 23:58:06 on 15 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:-->HOE..I be takin' the light standard down dere by the bah-b-q! ADAM....I watch SP on Fridays, and I sure hope I see a new one, 'cause I've seen them all two times now. I love that show, you gay homosexual! - 0:00:39 on 16 Dec 97 GMT

Jobette (luck comes in threes):--->ADAM..would you like to take advantage of me and make a small wager on the Superbowl? Or have I broken the bank? - 0:07:30 on 16 Dec 97 GMT

da ho(I be spellin it wrong las time) from da nort..:JOETTE- That be smokin girl, long as you not be walkin on ma groun! Goin out right now matta o fact! - 0:09:08 on 16 Dec 97 GMT

Adam I HAVEN'T SEEN AN ENGLISHMAN TAKE A BLOW LIKE THAT SINCE HUGH GRANT!!!:Jowager: I am up for a Super Bowl bet, bien sűr! It's a long way off, however. Meanwhile, in our joint-office pool, there's $328 riding on tonight's outcome. I like the Niners @ home, even giving the points. BMW, I have learned that my proposed road trip to see the Mets in Milwaukee & Chicago will have to be either Apr. 7-13 or July 22-26. Let's see, do I want to freeze or bake? You know, if it's hot in Chicago, people drop dead like fruitflies. - 0:31:36 on 16 Dec 97 GMT

Addendam:BMW, Jo, neither the Jays nor the Mets have posted yet. MLB said the teams are likely to post individually before MLB posts the final master schedule. What about the Grey Cup? Is that over already? I always liked the Blue Bombers, but what the f*&^% is a 110-yard field for? I mean, the 55-yard line? Plll-ease! - 0:41:01 on 16 Dec 97 GMT

Adam OUT of HEAR, HEAR! :--------> |o) zzzz - 0:50:46 on 16 Dec 97 GMT

PapaSam:JOETTE. I must have missed a few postings I have just read one where you appear to be coming to my defense from some comments made by BILL. I am very fortunate in that I have a loving and caring family However in general, treatment of the elderly is not as benign as you suppose. As a matter of fact, elder abuse is a very serious problem, particularly in nursing homes. Each one of us, regardless of age, is an individual with differing thoughts and emotions. Personally, my opinions on almost every subject are diametrically opposed to those of the religtous right. I do not believe that any group, religious or atheist, has the right to impose its will on others. I believe that it is noine of my business what an individual wants to do with his body, as long as he or she does not interfere with the rights of others. I am a member of the Hemlock Society. I feel that when the time comes when I can no longer take care of my own needs and no longer am able to enjoy life I want to be able to pull the plug without some bible thumper telling me I have to wait till his god wants me to die.I believe that any individual who is lying in a hospital bed waiting to die, with tubes in his every orifice, wallowing in his own feces, waiting for his bed- sores to turn gangrenous is entitled to live that way if he so desires. I have no right to interfere with his wishes. Nor does anyone have the right to interfere with mine. ALL. I find that many of your postings are replete with solecisms. I suggest you invest in a good dictionary and thesaurus. As I've said before, age does not always bring wisdom - sometimes it brings Alzheimer's. Now try talking down to the old man!! - 1:00:24 on 16 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:-->PAPASAM..do you know who to retrieve posts that you have missed? Let me know if you don't and I will explain. Otherwise, I won't waste your time...but I was addressing Bill's patronization of our elders. - 1:06:35 on 16 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:-->speaking of mood swings..RON..have you also tried those pills that you suggested for myself? - 1:08:27 on 16 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:-->PAPASAM..not all here have the luxury of sitting at a computer prepared to make long, well written posts. Many of us are actually at work, or doing work at home, and check the page every once in awhile just to stick our two cents in. There is scant room for political correctness, and not all are interested in making our postings flowery. - 1:11:31 on 16 Dec 97 GMT

PapaSam:JAMES. Re Population. What you say about culture's part is true, but the RC church is right there, No birth control, no contraceptive devices. Either breed or refrain from sex. Most catholics pay no heed to it but the basic principle is still there. As for destroying the discussion, have no fear. I am glad to hear that you are getting a laugh out of our postings. That's good. Laughter shouldn't be one sided. Please take care of that ache in your side. It may be appendicitis. Please keep on posting. We have lots of room. Are you sure that Texas has the right to SECEDE? (Not succeed. You really should get that dictionary) Check it out. It's nice that you like calm rational discussions but why do you bring up the right to kill. No one here has threatened your life or property, only your ideas. I envy you your mechanical ability. I was very surprised to read that you carry a full college course with a 4.0 GPA. That's great. How do you manage to keep a full time job and run a business from your home at the same time? How were you able to get into college without a high school diploma? Good Luck. You sound like a real success story. - 2:07:56 on 16 Dec 97 GMT

Bill..:PAPASAM, What is solecisms? I was not trying to "patronize" or "talk down" to you or anyone else here. Joette interpreted it that way. And I agree with your post about the right of an individual. I do not want to be kept alive needlessly when it's obvious to me the end has come. What did you do in the military? I was on nuclear submarines for four years. - 2:35:36 on 16 Dec 97 GMT

Bill..:JOETTE, As far as my comment about having little control over our lives goes, I thought you believed in determinism? I have heard many atheists argue against "freewill." Did we really choose to be born? We can't not breath, etc. What's the deal Jo? - 2:40:29 on 16 Dec 97 GMT

Bill..:JOETTE, I do agree that being old does not necessarily equate to wisdom. And my father before he died last year did have Alzheimer's, so I know what that's like. I didn't relate to my father like I do to my mother…. one too many beatings. I just have a close relationship to my mother as I credit her for much of my inner security that I enjoy today. Love will do that to you! - 2:47:43 on 16 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:-->BILL..we may have not had the right to choose to be born, but it is up to us to decide or to choose how we are going to live our lives. If I gave the impression that I believed in determinism I must have stated something incorrectly, or it was intrepreted that way. No one, nor anything, determines my life, as I have the control to change it is I choose to. And on that note, I am determining to go to bed to sleep off this foul mood I have not been enjoying today. Bon nuit! - 2:52:15 on 16 Dec 97 GMT

Bill..:Good night Jo Jo! Talk to ya later. - 2:59:30 on 16 Dec 97 GMT

PETER:--BILL--Were they yellow? - 3:39:44 on 16 Dec 97 GMT

PapaSam:BILL. I enlisted in the Army before WW 2 and was assigned to an Anti-aircraft artillery unit. When the war ended and I got back to civilization a friend of mine told me that the Air Corps was the gravy train of the army. So I reenlisted in the Army Air Force which got a divorce from the army in 1947 and became the United States Air Force. It was such a good deal that I stayed in till I retired. I've had friends who served aboard subs but I don't think I could hack it. It takes a special kind of guy and I mean it in the best sense. My son spent six years in the navy on a carrier but left when h decided to get married. As to free will, we don't say we don't have free will. At least I don't say it. The whole starts when you argue with some holy roller about why, if he's got such a wonderful god who is all powerful and kind and loving at the same time, does he allow evil to exist. Thir pat answer to that is that their god gives people free will so that they have the option to choose whether they want go do good or bad things. When I try to question them and ask if they think it's OK for a rapist to do his job because god has given him permission under the free will option they stick to their free will and freedom of choice. Then when I ask what happened to the victim's free will they go round and round. And that's what the free will thing is all about. As for what is a solecism - didn't you get that dictionary yet? It pertains to a minor blunder in speech, usually a grammatical error. To be truthful, I really didn't use the word in its proper sense. I should have used the word "malapropism" which specifically means the use of the wrong word. If I said I ate at a "surfboard" instead of a "smorgasbord" it would be a good example. So I made a mistake. Well, one mistake in 82 years ain't bad. - 4:40:41 on 16 Dec 97 GMT

PapaSam:JOETTE. I guess I do come on a little too strong. I really do tend to be something of a ballbreaker. I'm sorry. I will try to tone down in the future, unless, of course, I'm chewing out some bible thumper. - 4:50:41 on 16 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- I hope your feeling better tomorrow! PETER- Yellow, ha ha! I didn't get it at first. PAPASAM - First and foremost, I think Joette was trying to get the message across that just because your 80 something doesn't mean we have to treat you like you were incapable of being on equal ground. I think meant to say, who in hell cares what age you are, in this discussion your ageless. I agree with her. Although abuse of the elderly is a serious crime just as the abuse of anyone who is physically or mentally below average, it's not out there in every home or nursing home. Most people do not abuse others. For those that do, there really should be a much more punitive deterent and it should be recognized when it's done by anyone. For instance, people go to jail for over charging the elderly for a bad roofing job yet asshole TV evangelists can bilk the elderly out of thousands of dollars but it's legal. IMO, one gets more for their buck even with a bad roofing job. - 5:09:47 on 16 Dec 97 GMT

PapaSam:ALL. Anyone intersted in getting an email of my "An Atheist's Prayer" can get it by writing to me at: PapaSam@webtv.net It shows what a Number One god should really be like, and when the holy rollers read it, that's when they start screaming "Free will". And the price is right. - 5:14:38 on 16 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:I was watching The Practice the other night. A priest had someone have a heart attack while she was being exorcised. She was mentally ill so he did not have the permission from his "higher ups" to preform the exorcism. The church states that only mentally stable people should be exorcised. Really, is anyone mentally stable if they believe they are possessed by demons? - 5:15:50 on 16 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:PAPSAM- I have a copy of it. Peter and Joette sent it to me a while ago. I think some things are deterministic and not controlled by free will. Of course all of these things are physical in nature therefore genetic. Also there is the matter of what one is taught. For instance, in our part of the world it's not acceptable to walk around in the nude. This is something we're taught will we're very young. Even if the laws changed tomorrow and it became acceptable how many of us would do it. If we did do it would it cause us a great amount of stress? I think, for those of us raised that way, learned behavior would win out over free-will and we wouldn't be comfortable. - 5:23:25 on 16 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:PAPASAM- I agree, if James is laughing, he can be sure, so are we. Goodnight atheists! - 5:25:34 on 16 Dec 97 GMT

PapaSam:MARLENE. Legal or not I sure wouldn't walk around in the nude where you live - not at this time of the year. Now a question. When you mention the tempeature you say 2+ and 4+. Is that supposed to be 2 centigrade or 2 Fahrenheit, or does it have another reference point? Here in the US we use the Fahrenheit scale on which the freezing point is 32 degrees. - 6:52:37 on 16 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:-->PAPASAM..our temperature is measured in Celsius, although we most of us know the Fahrenheit scale as well. 0C=32F. It's a simple conversion. As far as the weather in Canada, Mexico has more snow than we have currently. In Alberta, they are battling forest fires due to the warm dry weather there, and in Ontario, it is +9. Almost warm enough for walking around topless, which is legal in this province. - 11:41:47 on 16 Dec 97 GMT

Grant:Favorate Rand quote, so far: There is no greater self-delusion than to imagine that one can render unto reason that which is reason's and unto faith that which is faith's. Faith cannot be circumscribed or delimited; to surrender one's consciousness by an inch, is to surrender one's consciousness in total. Either reason is an absolute to a mind or it is not- and if it is not, there is no place to draw the line, no principal by which to draw it, no barrier faith cannot cross, no part of one's life faith cannot invade: one remains rational until and unless one's feelings decree otherwise. Faith is a malignancy that no system can tolerate with impunity; and the man who succumbs to it will call on it in precisely those issues where he needs his reason most. When one turns from reason to faith, when one rejects the absolutism of reality, one undercuts the absolutism of one's consciousness- and one's mind becomes an organ one cannot trust any longer. It becomes what the mystics claim it to be: a tool of distortion. - 13:44:57 on 16 Dec 97 GMT

PETER:--GRANT--Yes, excellent quote, and the key segment I think is: "and the man who succumbs to it will call on it in precisely those issues where he needs his reason most." Therien lies the achilles heel of mankind. The easy way out. He has to learn that facing the facts will always be his ticket to a healthy, happy prosperous life. Putting one's mind into a for--as religious practices would have one do, is one of the most destructive actions a person could do. Here's another short, but profound quote from Rand, that sums it all up." There are only two means by which men can deal with each other: guns or logic" - 14:10:35 on 16 Dec 97 GMT

Grant:PETER-- An aquantance once told me that if he couldn't use the Bible to prove the truth of the Bible, then I couldn't use reason to prove the worth of reason. I think it must be a frightening world for this guy if there is no better way to differentiate between what is possible and what is not than feelings and faith. But of course he "knew" he was right. - 14:34:48 on 16 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:PETER and GRANT--When I read Grant's quote, the sentence Peter highlighted was the one that I felt was the key sentence also. Grant, from whick book is that quote? When mythmas shopping, I checked out the book store for some of Rand's material but all they had was _The Fountainhead_ and _Atlas Shrugged_. They said they would order a book for me though. This is my plan for January. - 15:00:33 on 16 Dec 97 GMT

Grant:MARLENE-- It was from 'The Virtue of Selfishness.' It's in chapter 2, 'Mental Health Versus Mysticism.' From what I can tell, any of her writings are worthwhile. - 15:04:36 on 16 Dec 97 GMT

Steven:ANY<<>> Has anyone read "the Mayan factor." There is some interesting stuff in that book and I have only read the first chapter. - 15:14:04 on 16 Dec 97 GMT

PETER:--GRANT--But does he not pre-suppose reason when "proving" the Bible's validity ? I have yet to see anyone ever prove anything unreasonably. The main problem here is that they do not really understand what reason is. If one wants tp prove anything, they can only do so with the implementation of reason. It is inescapable. Even if some osays: " Well reason doesn't prove anything"--they are USING reason to make that statement, therefore, if reason is invalid, so is that statement. I hear this time and time again, and it is meaningless. As a matter of fact it was Rand who finally recognized and defined this fallacy of logic: The Fallacy of the Stolen Concept: Whenen attempting to discredit a certain concept, was uses that concept in doing so. - 15:15:42 on 16 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:GRANT- Thankyou! I decided to make a list of books to get in a file on the computer. I had written them down on a paper beside the computer but my honey accidently chucked it out. Grant, I also need the names of those three books you suggested before. As you suggest, I'll buy one and you'll buy one then we can exchange them. - 15:32:10 on 16 Dec 97 GMT

Carl:GRANT: You mention "faith" and its whatever meaning, well, last night D.Rather ran a spot on faith healing prayer and such stuff, so now some Massachusets Med.school either plans to or it is being urged to scientifically study prayer faith and healing. Georgetown univ.already has something of this sort going on, but so what they're catholics and as I recall these people once said their creed would have its way by any means, this might be interesting. Interesting in that we can watch these contemporary religious types pervert science to suit their needs. As I watched that report the words I directed at these religious people via JAMES, well does this mean that down the road that is what may be expected? - 15:44:10 on 16 Dec 97 GMT

Carl:PETER: In regards to my post to GRANT of the Georgetown univ.reference, the Phd.Priest type was commenting on the "probable" validity of the 'prayer faith healing' thing because, "science has never proven that god does not exist". Are the people of this country the USA really that uneducated and unlearned so that the news institutions and priest types can boldly bluntly say such stuff for public consumption? - 15:51:58 on 16 Dec 97 GMT

Carl:OPEN: Science and religion can serve only those who want to control. The words of science can serve humanity. The words of religion, however, are contentless and can be affixed to nothing actual real. If the writers and thinkers of the assorted science and math books that I have read, inscribed true to their minds, then they simply said that words relevant to experience must also relate to something objective outside our own containers. Imagination concocts of course but if it is not relevant to something outside of us then it is probably just electrochemical activity of the brain,e.g., an IPU, et.c. - 17:42:19 on 16 Dec 97 GMT

Adam NATURAL CAUSES, BILLY:Joette: I just reviewed some retroposting. Before PapaSam does the hemlock thing, maybe he should see the Parent TV Protest/Grandpa episode of the Park. He could end up in limbo with Kenny. - 19:48:41 on 16 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:CARL- I think the so-called "faith healing" does have an effect. I think it has more to do with comforting someone rather than actual healing. It's similiar to mom stroking a child's forhead when he/she is ill. The effect makes us "feel" better. Also actual physical healing does speed up if one's frame of mind is settled. Maybe the "faith healing" should be better worded as "comforting". - 19:56:24 on 16 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:STEVEN- Is the _Mayan Factor_ a fiction or non-fiction? - 19:57:49 on 16 Dec 97 GMT

Adam O SOLECISM MIO:PapaSammer on the Grammer: Just thought I'd point out that "solecism" is not necessarily "error," although it can be. Any nonstandard usage or construction is a solecism and, among your more witty punsters (not unlike myself), solecisms are deliberate forms of wordplay. Also, although I've not heard it used in this fashion, American Heritage lists "violation of etiquette" as an alternate meaning of solecism. Finally, I would point out to those page denizens who are not versed in astronomy that there are nine known planets in our solecism. - 20:00:01 on 16 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:PAPASAM- I have heard of the Hemlock Society but I don't fully understand what is actually about. I do understand that one should beable to die with dignity but other than that does it provide any info on the so-called "assisted suicide" or laws concerning euthanasia?? - 20:01:16 on 16 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:ADAM- Do you think up these things on your own? Cute! - 20:03:14 on 16 Dec 97 GMT

Adam BOOK 'EM, DANO:Marlene: Regarding books, have you tried Amazon.com? They've been nothing but terrific with regard to selection, price and customer service in my experience. Most recent recipient of merchandise from Amazon was Joette, and the only problem was the damned Canadian Customs, which caused a delay of several days. - 20:05:57 on 16 Dec 97 GMT

Adam SUESS IS THE SORCE OF ALL WIT AND KNOWLEDGE:Marlene: It would appear that I come up with seemingly endless diddies on my own, but as we all know, no one is truly alone. My very consciousness is a function of Seuss, for he sayeth, "I am." - 20:12:00 on 16 Dec 97 GMT

Adam A SEUSSIAN SOLECISM:Sorry, O Great One, for misspelling thy name in the previous post. - 20:13:28 on 16 Dec 97 GMT

Joette being the literal translation of the American Heritage's definition of solecism..:-->ADAM..yeah, sure, blame customs...now where's the rest??????? hahahaha! - 20:41:18 on 16 Dec 97 GMT

Steven:MARLENE<<>> it is fact, or reported as fact. Alot of it is mathmatical theory with alot of astronomy. - 20:51:17 on 16 Dec 97 GMT

Adam NOBODY'SH GONNA LAY A HAND ON MA FLUFFY!:Joette: I just need to get out of work at a good hour one night to shop. I know exactly what I'm gonna get. AYM GONNA KEEK YEW IN THA NUTSH! - 21:09:29 on 16 Dec 97 GMT

Adam A TYPICAL MAIL: Joett-e-mail: Sorry to pepper you with forwarded messages and grail mail, but it's stuff I thought you'd want. The Jays response to my snotty e-mail was lightning quick, so it must be something they're concerned aboot. - 21:14:27 on 16 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:-->ADAM..you can pepper me with e-mail anytime you want, and yes, it was information I want. Now, if some guy hitsch me, I shay, get to the garage and fixch the car, you shtupid man! - 21:34:08 on 16 Dec 97 GMT

Joette (always in the mood for some wordplay):-->ADAM..it's a pity you weren't around to write for the Marx Brothers (not Karl and siblings). Your posts often remind me of something Chico would say. - 21:36:58 on 16 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:-->TO ALL..in case you don't know what Mr. Adam and I are talking about, we often refer to the television show South Park (does anybody else watch it?). If you can get it, it is worth a check, especially when they show segments of "Jesus and His Pals". - 21:39:44 on 16 Dec 97 GMT

Adam I'M NOT TOUCHING THAT ONE WITH A 40-FOOT POLE:Joette: He'sh not KEEKING heesh assh...He'sh definitley doin' SOMETHIN' to heesh assh, but heesh not KEEKING it! - 21:49:44 on 16 Dec 97 GMT

Adam FOOD FOR NAUGHT---> :Do you suppose there could be a brilliant English detective who investigates suicides named Hemlock Sherms? - 21:53:54 on 16 Dec 97 GMT

Adam MEN in BLACK:Joette: The NY Post today reported that the Mets, jumping on the merchandising bandwagon, will wear black hats with blue bills, and black jerseys, for certain games. - 21:56:31 on 16 Dec 97 GMT

Joette (thought MIB was a one joke bore):--ADAM..porquoi? - 22:26:54 on 16 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- Now you really are having me look forward to South Park! Jesus and his Pals, it sounds like a riot. Did anyone hear how "polite" Prince William is? I was hoping for an interesting afternoon of radio while making periske and all they could yap about was bonnie Prince William! - 23:24:06 on 16 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:PAPASAM- You'll be pleased to hear that your _Atheist's Prayer_ is making it rounds on the net. A friend just sent my a copy. - 23:26:02 on 16 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene...:Another uninteresting tidbit. Less antidepressants are being sold since Princess Dianners death. It turns out that those who were depressed cried over Princess Dianner and this relieved their depression. - 23:29:02 on 16 Dec 97 GMT

Adam FLY BALL NOIR:Joette: It's to sell jerseys and hats, why do you think? How about the Black Jays? Or the Ebon-jeezers? I'm shutting down; got another court date tomorrow AM, and then a birthday lunch for one of the legal eds. at work (Indian food, methinks). And for now....get me some of that nectar of the godless (5.5% hard cranberry cider!). Yee-ha! Along came a spider and chugged down some cider....Cider? I don't hardly KNOW her! Hey, whose cider ya' on, anyhow?-----> |o) glug glug glug - 23:33:01 on 16 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene..where is everyone tonight, mythmas shopping?:WARNING! WARNING! Don't play with any Chineese chickens! - 1:05:07 on 17 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:-->MARLENE..that's it! I'll kill the premier of this province, and then my depression will go away!!! What is periske? (I was out shopping, and everyplace is crazy. With this warm weather is doesn't seem much like mythmas..) - 1:32:27 on 17 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene..Almost time for Dellaventura..I love that show:JOETTE- Isn't that ridiculous! How could someone's "depression" be cured just like that! Maybe many of these people we misdiagnosed. Periske is a Ukranine food. I'm not Ukrainian myself but was raised in an area where the population consisted of many people of Ukrainian heritage. These and tiny buns filled with a mixture of sauerkraut, bacon and onion. Then brushed with garlic butter. I also make perogies and holopchi (cabbage rolls). Then I also make the traditional english things from my family. I'm not complaining about the weather here! This is such a treat! Come January, I'm sure it will be it's normal -40 (which is almost the same on the Fscale, Papasam). I'm glad I'm finished all my mythmas shopping! I hear that $8.50 Beanie Babies are going for a enormous amount in the US. The stores here are saying that they have people from the US buying them up like hotcakes. - 1:57:45 on 17 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:-->MARLENE..if I'd only known, I would have stocked up! They were selling them for $3.99 in Sudbury last weekend, so I bought a couple even though I don't have any kids to buy for...maybe I should advertise them on the net for $50 each? - 2:02:12 on 17 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- Never know! What was it last year? I know there was some kind of toy that the stores ran short of. I also understand the Borden company is rationing shipments of lasagne noodles because of a shortage. I understand Borden closed down some palnts earlier in the year. Maybe no one should buy noodles from Borden. The execs didn't seem to care if their former employees had a good mythmas. - 2:28:54 on 17 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:I thought Della was on at eight but I forgot about Michael Hayes. How can you tell I'm bored??? I have a "big" meeting tomorrow so I think I am having a bout of nervous energy. - 2:33:02 on 17 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:-->MARLENE..you opened the capitalist door again...if Borden is losing money, it is not up to them to ensure the employees have a good mythmus. They have a responsibility to their shareholders. Last year it was "Tickle Me, Elmo", remember? This year they are practically giving them away (but they are awfully cute!) - 3:32:07 on 17 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- That was it, Tickle Me Elmo! We have heard from Dicky for quite some time. Maybe there's just too many burning bushes for him to snuff out. Anyhow, time to hit the sack. Goodnight atheists! - 4:10:59 on 17 Dec 97 GMT

PapaSam:ADAM. There's no pun like an old pun, unless it' a new pun. Despite what GBS said, a good punster is worth his weight in pounds. (sterling). And please do not take the name of the lord thy Seuss in vein. The loss of blood could be serious.MARLENE. The HemlockSociety believes that when an individual reaches the point where an illness makes life unbearable to him he has the right to end his life. It is an individual choice, made by the individual hinself, free from outside pressures. We do not advocate forced euthanasia for anyone. The average person lying in a hospital bed who makes this decision is usually in no position to carry out his wishes. This is where he seeks the help of his doctor to give him the means to do so. Thus the term "assisted suicide." That's why people seek out Dr. Kevorkian. He does not go looking for people. - 4:55:15 on 17 Dec 97 GMT

PapaSam:ADAM. Watson a name? Your question struck close to Holmes. You mentioned "another court date" in one of your postings. Are you a legal beagle or a paralegaleagle? Do you prosecute the innocent or defend the guilty? Or are you just a victim of the system? MARLENE. I'm glad to see that my little magnum opus (that's for you, Adam) is getting around. Do you think I should send a copy to the Pope? or Pat Robertson? - 5:09:22 on 17 Dec 97 GMT

Grant:PETER-- Sorry for the slow response. Not only did he pre-suppose reason when "proving" the Bible's validity, but as I told him, he was using reason to decide that if he couldn't use the Bible to prove the bible's truth blah blah blah. His response was "No, that's common sense. You should check it out sometime." 'Twas a good time to walk away. Anyway, my thought was that this part of the Rand quote-"Either reason is an absolute to a mind or it is not- and if it is not, there is no place to draw the line, no principal by which to draw it, no barrier faith cannot cross, no part of one's life faith cannot invade" was demonstrated. He was free to draw the line between faith and reason wherever he wished at the moment, which is to disregard the presence of reality. - 5:52:22 on 17 Dec 97 GMT

Grant:MARLENE-- The book you recommended 'Demonic Males:Apes and the Origins of Human Violence' was extremely interesting. It offers more info on how much of our behavior is genetic, among other things. I read an article about this that mentions this book and two others. They are 'Bonobo: The Forgotten Ape' by Frans de Waal, University of California Press, and 'Good Natured: The Origins of Right and Wrong in Humans and Other Animals' also by de Waal, Harvard University Press. I am in favor of the exchange proposition. The other book that I recommended is Ayn Rand's 'Philosophy- Who Needs It," but we have people here whose Rand recommendations should be considered first. - 5:53:40 on 17 Dec 97 GMT

Grant:CARL-- Now that should be interesting- A "scientific" study of prayer faith and healing. If there were evidence of such things to study they wouldn't call it faith would they? I wonder what their approach would be. Sounds like a win-win deal though. They could do a double blind test with a control group. If there were positive results they win. If there weren't they say God doesn't perform on command. I guess the evidence we should be watching for is for God to smite them for insolence. --While visiting that old church in the French Quarter of New Orleans, I can't remember the name, our guide told us that when the church was built they ran out of money and didn't have a carpenter qualified to build a stairway to the balcony. Along came a stranger who proceeded to build an impressive wooden spiral staircase with no nails, only to disappear before any offers of payment could be made. Some believe, she informed us, that it was Jesus himself. Now if I understand correctly, this must have been a recreational outing for Jesus, because otherwise one would have to conclude that Jesus, while choosing not to interfere with plane crashes and such, will reward, in person, poor planning of a church. - 5:54:26 on 17 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:-->GRANT..he must have heard about the "Hurricanes" at O'Briens! Either that or he thought Preservation Hall was a place to get a face lift. - 11:53:07 on 17 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:GRANT- Thankyou! I added them to the list and I'll contact the book store to see which ones they can order then I'll get back to you. Speaking of "miracles". I was watching Dellaventura last night and in desperation a young man about to take his vows for the priesthood made up a self combusting candle to attract people to the "faith". Of course it wasn't suggested that the young man was a liar and duped a lot of sheep, instead he was admired in his attempt to try to win more to add to the flock. - 13:20:03 on 17 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:PAPASAM- It would be a great idea to send your prayer to the pope but I'd be registering it in case they might steal your idea of god and add it to all these locked up "secret scripts" they have in the Vatican. I agree fully with the Hemlock Society and believe me, I could not imagine "Doctor Death" seeking out patients. I think he's doing a courageous as well as a compassionate service. - 13:25:20 on 17 Dec 97 GMT

Carl:GRANT: If the boldness factor is used by these folks you can bet the farm, the religious leaders will concoct that "win-win" situation. That is the nature of the talk of those kinds o'people, the real world is meaningless to them. To them, there is only what they choose to believe and if they merely accept what the others of their ilk say, they've no problems. That carpenter story is a one meant for the simple mind action, in other words rigorous thinking is put aside turned off in fact. Religious types just need to hear the story, then for religion their brain activity is occupied, so they think "Oh how wonderful", so is this ignorance? - 15:29:29 on 17 Dec 97 GMT

Carl:OPEN: In the local news was the typical story for this time of the year about some apparition someone says is the v.mary. This one it was said could be just a fogged window, but that what it said to portray. Anyone out there have someone in their neck o'the woods who have another apparition story to add in here, it might be interesting to see how many different places this event occurs or it is reported. - 16:46:15 on 17 Dec 97 GMT

Carl:ANY: Don't in a rush, but you get the message, see error. - 16:47:54 on 17 Dec 97 GMT

weezer:I am a senior @ Brandon HS in MN and I am doing my senior project on different theories of the way the Earth was formed. If anyone has any info they would like to share please contact me at weezer.w@usa.net Thank You - 19:06:21 on 17 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:-->RON..you'll be wanting to give "weezer" your opinion, as your theory is a little more interesting than us boging him/her with the boring big bang theory. Weezer, god did not create the universe. - 20:46:49 on 17 Dec 97 GMT

PETER:--weezer---What subject is this project for? - 21:15:37 on 17 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:-->CARL...somebody at work spilled a cup of coffee in the staff lounge, and before she cleaned it up I tried to make the spill form into "the virgin". I thought I would sell tickets for $2 for a peek, but unfortunately the chin area ran to far. - 21:39:45 on 17 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:--->TO ALL..where is everybody these days???? Anyway, I heard on the news today that Dr. K. was busy last night, and assisted to persons in their demise. One of them was 89 years old, and I wonder what her story was...has anyone heard the details? - 21:41:57 on 17 Dec 97 GMT

-->I seem to have a problem with the words "too" and "two" TOday. - 21:44:02 on 17 Dec 97 GMT

Carl:ANY: As I peruse various net sites that relate to pro\anti deism, except for wistful thoughts I've yet to see a clear cut account in favor of a god thing. I have tried to hold onto a line of fairness but honest thought unbiased emotion do not show or even hint at such a thing. What I saw were words on paper or electronically formed words and upon looking up and around me I see that "Nature is the volumne from which all of our knowledge has been translated." Also, if god exists, what objections can he/she/it have to saying so? - 22:03:26 on 17 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:-->CARL...he/she/it would probably not object, but its followers would take exception to that fact, in that their "god" was the one that created nature for us to with what we will. If he/she/it created it, I'm sure there would have been some intercession before the Exxon Valdez ran aground in, don't you think? - 22:26:24 on 17 Dec 97 GMT

Carl:JOETTE: Why not a coffee spot? Have you ever checked out a site which might be a catholic site about the saints? It tells what these people saw and other stuff, it is an accounting of sheer unsanity. - 22:49:41 on 17 Dec 97 GMT

Carl:JOETTE: Have you, of late, visited the "Why Christians Suck" site? I did and its caretaker is slowly filling in the 'coming soon' slots. You Canadians also have a pretty good humanists site too, u-been there? - 22:55:37 on 17 Dec 97 GMT

PapaSam:CARL. I have seen pictures of of a potato and a cookie which were supposed to be a likeness of either jc or vm. To me the most amusing and idiotic thing about these visions is how they recognize them. There are no snapshots or drawings dating back to their alleged time perood. Was vm blond or brunette? Tall or short? fat or skinny? The same questions apply to jc. The earliest paintings date back to the Renaissance or thereabouts and sprang from the imagination of the painters and whatever models they had available. As for using logic with the believers it's as effective as trying to freeze water on a hot stove. When William Jennings Bryan, the patron saint of the fundamentalists said "If the bible said that Jonah swallowed the whale I'd believe it." he spoke for all of them. You just waste your breath talking to them. - 22:59:52 on 17 Dec 97 GMT

Adam ATTORNEY for the WORSE...:-----> PopSam (& Jetsam?)...I have a law degree and an inactive membership in the Connecticut bar, but I do not practice law for a living, preferring my wonderful job as editor of a lawyers' newspaper. The appearance to which I referred is in my pro se (Can You See?) defense in a civil action brought to collect on a private-source student loan. I am happy to say that after tying them up in state and federal court for 4.5 years, I have settled the matter on very favorable terms. It was my first and hopefully last experience with full-blown litigation, although I recently won a small-claims case against someone who owes me $$$, and may pursue another very soon. Were you privvy to my favorite lawyer joke, conveyed to Joette on this page a week or two ago, to wit (pun intended): "What happens to lawyers when they die?" - 23:51:21 on 17 Dec 97 GMT

Adam IF I HAD A HAMMURABI (speaking of laws):Grant's Toomuch: Perhaps the guy with the church staircase was using Lucifer's Press-On Nails™. - 23:56:06 on 17 Dec 97 GMT

Adam CHIN-CHILLER:----> Joette of the Yukon fool some of the people: Had you thought about claiming that the stain was Jay Leno (whose chin, incidentally, once killed Kenny----YOU BAStard!) - 0:00:16 on 18 Dec 97 GMT

Adam BLIND FAITH NO MORE:--> Papa Was a Rollin' Sam: Your Scopes quote reminds me of another great one attributed to the leader of the Islamic forces that captured Alexandria and razed the great libraries there. When asked how he could justify destoying all that accumulated knowledge of scrolls and texts, he replied (something like) "If they contain material that contradicts the Kor-aan, they are blasphemous; if they contain material that supports the Kor-aan, they are superfluous." - 0:14:12 on 18 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:ADAM- Corny says "Figures, a lawyer, even worse an editor for a lawyers rag!". Your proud of that stick on nails one, ain't ya. I have to admit, it's one the good ones! - 3:25:52 on 18 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:I just finished watching America Undercover: Men in Drag. It pisses me off how great these guys can look! And the clothes they wear and the makeup is much more than any woman could think of. I love it! Now thems the kinds of mens to go shopping with! - 5:20:09 on 18 Dec 97 GMT

PaapaSam:ADAM. Your lawyer joke/riddle. The smell goes away? Speaking of jokes - here's one about "The Ancient Mariner." "There was an ancient mariner and he stoppeth on of three. 'By thy long grey beard and glittering eye, now wherefore stoppeth thou me?' So the old man says "Can I interest you in a stuffed albatross?" - 5:27:39 on 18 Dec 97 GMT

Carl:ANY: Along the lines of ADAM's koran thing, it brings to mind how political leaders attach themselves to religion, it is the easiest means available for them to have their way, just tell the people what they want to hear. A few days back someone herein was bemoaning that scientist yield to those interests too, but they're probably practicing the 'to get along just go along' learned professionals seem to take on a patronising position, all such action is for the uneducated, unlearned and the money poor. P'SAM, I ask the religious kinds too, how does anyone know what or how jc or v.mary looked? In a few quick minutes they go silent on this discussion. - 15:35:09 on 18 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:-->CARL..along the political lines...just this morning I was watching an interview with a Member of Parliament who was "thanking God" vehemently that no one was killed in a plane crash that took place on Tuesday night (the plane ran of the runway in heavy fog and there were no air traffic controllers at the airport). When she thanked god, I thought to myself, why did god let it happen in the first place? I think people should stop bandying god's name about like that! She should be thanking the pilots for their quick action! - 15:44:37 on 18 Dec 97 GMT

mccoy:Steve...I was wondering...some time ago you posted a list of the top ten things the Christians borrowed from the pagans...do you remember where you found that? - 15:49:34 on 18 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:--->CARL..yesterday you mentioned the site "Why Christianity Sucks". I seem to have deleted it from my bookmarks, and am wondering if you could do the "URL" thing so I don't have to search for it??? Thanks! - 15:51:42 on 18 Dec 97 GMT

Steven:MCCOY, JOETTE<<>> the site that I recieved the info. from was: http://www.paranoia.com/~wcs/. The site is called "Why Christians Suck." - 16:21:14 on 18 Dec 97 GMT

PETER:--JOETTE--It's the same old "win-win" situation Christians like to ut themselves into when reassuring themselves of God's existence. If all of them had been killed, you would have heard the same old platitudes such as " Our prayers go out to their friends and families" and even more boldly " Occurences such as these are part of God's purpose( something which probably would be heard more likely in a church service.) In the end though one then asks. " How would things then differ if there was no God?" But never at one time have I ever heard this ever being said publicly. It would be considered "cruel" and "heartless", well yes, reality does that sometimes doesn't it? - 16:23:24 on 18 Dec 97 GMT

Carl:ANY: Viewed the flick "Contact" w/J.Foster based on C.Sagan's book, the blast and flash was a bit much, and the theism/atheism dialogue seemed tantalising but to far away from the borderlines to be significant. JOETTE, the political folks if they have taken the time to read at least the books I have read, it is my opinion they "choose" to lie to folk about that god thing, and for the majority of the body politic, folk, those books are but objects indicative of "leisure". If one reads they think if they think they will read. STEVEN posts that URL. - 16:58:30 on 18 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:CARL- I've read _Contact_ ages ago but I haven't seen the movie. For really good books like _Contact_, _1984_, and _The Handmaid's Tale_, Hollywood has a habit of screwing up the main theme of the story so I've given up watching the movie after I've read the book. Hollywood seems to like to end things with a "happily ever after", not always so in reality. - 17:34:20 on 18 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- That idiot yic radio talk show host is having a program on this afternoon on "what atheists do for xmas". I can just imagine his comments. It's too bad the damn radio station didn't have it online. I'm doing some more baking this afternoon so at least it will be a little more interesting than his last show I listened to "polite people". This yic is so politically correct he nauseates me! - 17:52:36 on 18 Dec 97 GMT

Carl:MARLENE: I read the book too back when, I will take some time to see what liberties H/wood exercised. The book I have also has C.Sagans signature in it, he signed it after a lecture he did that I attended. - 17:54:18 on 18 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:YIKES CARL- You have a keepsake! I haven't read Billions and Billions. Joette said that it really wasn't all that good. Did you buy it anyway? - 17:59:30 on 18 Dec 97 GMT

Carl:MARLENE: It is in the student general bookstore, so, over several lunchtimes now I've been going thru a chapter or so. - 18:25:32 on 18 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:-->MARLENE..I will be really interested to hear what the radio program tells us what we do at mythmus! Also, do you think Hollywood will change the ending of "The Titanic"? - 18:38:52 on 18 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:-->STEVEN..thanks for posting that URL! How come so quiet these days? - 18:39:57 on 18 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- I just heard that "what atheists do for xmas" will be on in the second hour of the yic-yuck's show. He's having a person on the The Freedom From Religion Foundation. The way he read the atheist's view on the myth of mythmas, I'm sure he'll have something stupid to say like "Where is your spirituality?" Let ya know anyway! - 19:04:50 on 18 Dec 97 GMT

Steven:JOETTE<<>> It has been a tough week for me and my wife. Plus, I have deadlines at work that are getting closer and I have been devoting the majority of my time for that. Once the mythmas holliday's are over things will be back to normal. My father and I had a HUGE discussion about christianity and my belief system. If you have forgotten my father is a deacon in the Church of Christ. I have never had the ability/courage to sit down and tell him how I feel in a rational manor because I love my father and did not know when I was crossing the line. He started the conversation letting me know that he wants to know my thoughts on religion and asked me not to pull any punches, so I did. He has never put any research into his faith other than researching the bible. I do not think I swayed his beliefs any, but I know now that he understands what my stance is on the hole thing. It bothered me that he could not supply any arguments or evidence to why he believes as he does, he simple says "it's is faith." I explained to him my belief that this was a waste of time. He did not agree of course. I guess it disturbes me because I consider, or would like to consider my father an intelligent human being. - 20:22:49 on 18 Dec 97 GMT

should be 'whole' not hole, and should be 'it is faith' not it's faith. - 20:25:39 on 18 Dec 97 GMT

Carl:STEVEN: Your point as of the eigth period is probably the key, probably for nearly all such "faithful", research. These folks don't push themselves into a second opinion or more thought about anything. Its far to easy to say that they believe, whatever! These folks probably don't even know what belief means to them in their own living experience. Here in this office a pretty long haired female always almost wants to say jc was or is real. She probably would if I wasn't always laughing at the mystics who visit this site and post of various things here. She herself finds what they inscribe outrageous. But, a day or so past I queried if such was ignorance or today, lets toss in, is it a practicing ignorance? I mean it is easiest to say yes and forego any hassle. - 20:49:33 on 18 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:ANYONE- Do you want to hear about the talk show? I don't want to type it all up if no one's interested. STEVE- You may be interested in this one. The spokesman for the Freedom form Religion Foundation WAS an ordained minister and more interesting yet is, a Native American. During this afternoon emotionally charged talk show, someone brought up that Hitler was a yic. Looney Larry the yic talk show host said "He really wasn't a christian" (Where have we heard that line before?). Anyway, Barker (the spokesman) related but "Yes he was really a christian" and extermined jews as xtianity suggests it. Anyhow ole Larry stated that there was absolutely no violence done by xtians in christs name. Then Barker hit him with the big one saying that christians came to his ancestors with a bible in one hand and a gun in the other. I've leaving the URL for the foundation if you'd be interested in contacting him. - 22:23:31 on 18 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:CARL- If she isn't preaching to you then I'd forgo the hassle. These people have to come to their senses on their own but alas, many never do. If she's preaching at work and you object you have every right to tell her to keep her silly beliefs to herself, at home and most definately not in the work place. If she insists, call the nun wagon, they are always looking for bimbos for jesus. - 22:40:34 on 18 Dec 97 GMT

mccoy:Steven...Thanks for the URL... - 22:58:06 on 18 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:--MARLENE...the url didn't work.... - 23:02:26 on 18 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- Try again, it works. - 23:43:12 on 18 Dec 97 GMT

Carl:MARLENE: It is too bad that radio host has not seen W.C.Suck account of Hitler the xtian. It has some very interesting references of adolph's purported words. If the article is accurate adolph was gonna be the next jc type. - 23:45:38 on 18 Dec 97 GMT

Adam ACE of BASE:Joette! Get thee to http://www.bluejays.ca !!!! The schedule is posted!!!! Also, they're raising the price of the good seats to $27.50 from $25 (other seats remain the same). - 23:54:58 on 18 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:-->MARLENE..sorry, but it keeps coming up as "bad request" (my server must be owned by an xtian). So, could you? in a nutshell? please, please, please.... - 23:55:53 on 18 Dec 97 GMT

Adam MORE DEAD LAWYERS:----> Sampopo: re joke: Nope. They lie still. - 0:00:23 on 19 Dec 97 GMT

Adam FFRF-for-all:If anyone can't get to the Freedom From Religion Foundation, this should do it. They were the most helpful when I was looking for "holiday equivalents." Many of you will recall the quest. - 0:12:35 on 19 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene..here goes again:JOETTE- I'll try again, other wise I'll just post the URL. This place isn't new to me but listening to the spokesman was. Here goes again! or http://www.infidels.org/org/ffrf - 0:16:53 on 19 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:Adam's works, does mine? I normally don't use this browser. Maybe that's the problem. I'll try my old one to see if it works from there. - 0:20:05 on 19 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- Let me know if the second one worked, okay. I want to make sure my browser is working properly. - 0:24:30 on 19 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:-->MARLENE..it didn't work for me. The message says my server doesn't understand the browser, but no matter, I used the address, not realizing it was the same information that Adam had supplied me with quite sometime ago. So, what do atheists do at xmas? - 0:43:11 on 19 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:-->ADAM...hokey Blue Jays...not only can you not order tickets on the net, but there is a really obvious typo under their "News" section (did you spot it?). Thanks for letting me know it was back up. - 0:55:23 on 19 Dec 97 GMT

Adam TYPOS SCHMYPOS:Joette: With all Blue respect, I care little to read BJ news. Maybe I can travel to Toronto for someone other than the Mets (Rangers are visiting on a weekend). Still, with San Francisco, Chicago & Atlanta likely (plus Mexico), I think I'll be running out of time to take trips. - 1:02:54 on 19 Dec 97 GMT

Bill..:What a killer week. PETER, They weren't "yellow." They were long, hard, and "black" and full of seaman, ha! - 1:05:55 on 19 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:-->ADAM...I challenge you to find the typo! - 2:08:55 on 19 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- I'm using a different browser this time. Let me know if it worked this time, okay. It bugs me that it's not working. This is the first time I've left a URL and didn't screw up the address, now the browser's not co-operating! - 4:22:50 on 19 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- I just got home so it's a bit late to type up the conversation from today's talk show but I'll do it tomorrow. I got booted out of typing class in school because I was laughing too much therefore never learned to type (with any speed and accuracy). Where IS everyone lately? Papasam? Grant? Steven? Peter? Ron? Bill? Even James? Dicky? and Quake? - 4:28:26 on 19 Dec 97 GMT

Michelle:hey - 4:34:12 on 19 Dec 97 GMT

Michelle:How can man make himself? Its impossible - 4:36:03 on 19 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene...your dad's got to be a smart man, he raised you!:STEVEN- Your father likely is an intelligent man but one that has had the fear of the lord instilled in him since he was young. I think it may really be fear that causes one to hold onto faith. I fear what I can see but fear not what I can't see. I fear a bear with a cub when I come across them while walking or berry picking (and believe me, it's happened) but I do not fear god as I believe he doesn't exsist. The reason I believe he doesn't exsist is likely because I don't have blind trust in anyone and never have. It doesn't matter that I leaned, as a child there was a god, I didn't trust that people were telling me the truth, even my parents. You dad likely had that blind trust, it doesn't mean he isn't a smart person. If he searched inside him self deep enough, he may have to admit that those he loved the most taught him a lie. For some people it may be easier to live the lie. He didn't give you the illusion that his truth was your truth as you didn't stay in the trap of religion. He must have suggested doubt somewhere... - 4:38:54 on 19 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:MICHELLE- I know, not a good title for the type of discussion this is. It should read "god is man-made". - 4:40:34 on 19 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:MICHELLE- On the other hand, cloning is possible. - 15:12:45 on 19 Dec 97 GMT

Carl:MICHELLE: Perhaps, you ought to consider those living things around you and ask where is its- whatever you espy, science? Or, if something has been made does that identify with the maker, beaver dam = beaver, some bird nest = some bird. Do you follow? - 15:18:00 on 19 Dec 97 GMT

Carl:REGULARS: I'd like to bring to anyone's attention this URL/site. If you've visited it then you fully apreciate that the others who haven't will see things perhaps still in mind, as said by others. This is a good site, lets see if I can type in the data correctly, enjoy. - 16:26:50 on 19 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:Firstly, Larry's (the yic radio talk show host) took issue with the sign posted by the mythmas tree and nativity scene which was located on American government property. The sign read something like this "There is no god, no heaven, no hell. Religion hardens hearts and enslaves minds". Dan Barker (spokesman for the FFRF) explained that anyone has the right to set up mythmas decorations on their own property but being an atheist he found that setting up religious paraphernalia on government property was against his constitutional right. The atheist sign has been burnt and defaced but the FFRF just replaces it. They printed a tongue-in-cheek message on it saying "thou shalt no steal". Mr, Barker explained that atheists celebrate the holiday season because of the event of the winter soltice. Long before xtianity, people gave each other gifts and celebrated this "natural" occurance. Larry said that xtianity gives a much deeper more profound message and Bob argued that it didn't. If fact Bob stated that jesus wasn't the lover of peace xtians try to make him out to be. Firstly he miserably failed to lead the jews from their religion second he didn't sound like the prince of peace when he said "Think not that I have come to send peace on earth, I came not to send peace but a sword. For I have come to set a man at variance against his father and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. And a man's foes shall they be of his own household. He that loveth mother or father more than me, is not worthy of me and he that loveth son and daughter more than me is not worthy of me". As Barker says, these aren't words of love and peace that xtianity claims their jesus represents. Larry said that Barker took this biblical babble wildly out of context. Barker states he hasn't, it's quite clear. Then Larry goes on to say that science is a religion of sorts and that there is more to humanity than matter. Barker said that there isn't more to humanity. Larry said humans have a soul which is "deeper" than matter. Barker said, there is no soul but only personality which is formed by our own physical interactions with the natural things of the world. Larry states that the soul seeks god. Barker says in China where millions of people do not believe in religion that they find nothing lacking and have no need to believe in a god. Then Larry really blundered saying that "people who believe in and god and raise their families in the love of god, are somewhat superior to those who do not believe in god". He felt there was less crimes committed by these families. When Barker started listing the crimes committed by xtians, Larry had to go for break. The break had to do with the breaking news of the fellow from Saturday Night live dying of a heart attack. Barker said he was from Madison originally. This paved the way for Barker to add one last comment before Larry had a chance to cut him off again. Barker said that contrary to rumors, Carl Sagan and his wife were both atheists. Carl said his last goodbye to his wife before he died, both of them knowing that the goodbye was forever. There was no last minute conversion and Carl and his wife were both comfortable with the natural world. I was really suprised that at least 75% of the callers were young and atheist. Maybe Manitoba is growing up! - 16:28:28 on 19 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:CARL- Thanks for the site! It looks interesting. I'm going back to explore it right away. BTW, I sent an email to Barker yesterday saying that I thought he did a wonderful job handling our yic talk show host and just as I was exploring the site you gave me, I got an e-mail back from him. He had given out the telephone number for the FFRF and some yic lady called going on and on about miracles and Romans. It was nice of him to get back to me. - 16:38:08 on 19 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:CORRECTION- That should have read "BOB" but "Dan". Getting my Barkers mixed up! - 16:40:15 on 19 Dec 97 GMT

Carl:MARLENE: A considerable amount of time has expired since I visited that site, and as my reference goes before I saw its contents many of its' ideas floated about in me. As I have heard these religious adherents from B.Graham, to the bible thumpers out on Sproul plaza here on campus, to the witnesses at the front door, none say anything of relevance. Whatever they say as it sounds that radio program also shows, a religious point of contention is meaningless, through and through. - 17:07:19 on 19 Dec 97 GMT

PapaSam:ALL. Some gremlin (probably a xtian) fouled up my phone line for over 24 hours. Like all religionists, atheists vary in the intensity of their beliefs. I for one, don't try to 'convert' any believer. However when they approach me or have the temerity to come to an atheist web site I feel free to attack and refute their illogical claims. Not everyone has what it takes to be an atheist. It takes a certain amount of courage to stand up against the powerhouse structure which can adversely affect your life and even your livelihood. i think there are a good many closet atheists out for that very reason. Aside from that it requires a particular type of mind. The desire to know, to question> I can't really pinpoint it, but it's the common thread. I still remember, as a child, the old woman sitting on the steps of my apartment building, holding her rosaary and telling her beads, her lips moving soundlessly. She had probably rceived them as a childhood. They had been her solace through illness and death. Let her have them. They embody her beliefs in what I know is a mythology but they are her comfort and her joy. Had she been raised as a moslem woman she would have walked gladly behind her husband wrapped from head to toe praising her allah. Had she been raised in the Inca civilization she would have been proud to be the young virgin sacrificed to her Incan god. That is what the socialization of a society and the brainwashing of religion will do. - 18:35:42 on 19 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:PAPASAM- YUP! I have yet to experience a poster here that was raised as an atheist in an atheist society. It would be interesting what they feel. - 19:23:22 on 19 Dec 97 GMT

LParsons:Promise Keepers proposes a decidedly Christian solution to the problem of males being unfaithful to their wedding vows. None of the men in PK expect folks from a secular mind set to understand or accept the solution or even agree with the definition of the problem. Christians view the roles of man and woman in the family as fixed. Their expressions of this role may vary but the roles are fixed. From a secular perspective this is nuts and anti womyn. Yet when balanced against what Christians believe, the idea that God became a part of His creation and died at the hands of the very beings He made in order to save them from death and Hell, the male leadership in the house stuff is light weight. Christian core beliefs and secular culture have somethings in common but diverg radically at other points. Womyns roles, Mens roles abortion, concepts of sexuality to name a few. PK calls Christian men back to their core beliefs and then says this is how those beliefs are expressed in particular places like the family. If you dont accept or acknowlege as credible the core belifs nothing else will make sense. and its place in modern culture am623@cleveland.freenet.edu - 19:57:33 on 19 Dec 97 GMT

Steven:LPARSONS<<>> We get enough dumbass christians on this site without haveing to deal with the PK cult freaks. Run off little man and enjoy your ignorance/mythology.. - 20:28:46 on 19 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:LPARSONS- Welcome, I think! IMO the pk's is the white xtian counterpart of the NOI. Both dangerously tunnel-visioned and archaic in method. As an atheist I not only find these groups offensive but as a woman, sexist. - 20:31:43 on 19 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:HI STEVE- Where HAVE you been! Did you read my post about the FFRF and the spokesman also being Native American??? - 20:33:18 on 19 Dec 97 GMT

LParsons: I do agree with the bible where seems to say to women do what you want as long as its not a sin while you are single, but once you are married you need to submit to male leadership. This puts the onus on the woman to check out the guy completely before she commits. I take the bible as literally true literarture. That means I intrepret it as a piece of literature.The key question is what did it mean to the people it was meant for. The next question how is that expressed in this culture . Where a passage uses an analogy I view it as an analogy. Where the writer issues a command or direction I assume the writer and the reader took it as such. I dont compare a person I'm dating to a bale of wheat like the writer in the SONG of Soloman. But I do try to rememnber the creator in the days of my youth as writer asks the reader to do in Eccelesiastes. - 20:39:21 on 19 Dec 97 GMT

Carl:LPARSONS: Perhaps those points you put forth as a solution since they been here and around a long time, maybe they are the problem. They are antiquated words of long ago, to want them to be relevant means these PK types want to go back in time and ways, dead. Maybe, the change ought to be progressive, something more thoughtful and not merely some emotional response? - 20:44:18 on 19 Dec 97 GMT

Carl:LPARSONS: Have you ever considered doubting those words and ideas of times gone? Have you honestly thought about alternatives to that stuff? Have you considered what the word "believe" means to yourself? I ask such questions because these things- points, you inscribe here are not new, no matter what the party uttering them may call itself, the really troubling point, they are not your thoughts. You parrot them, mindlessly, why not try something new, think of something new? - 21:05:51 on 19 Dec 97 GMT

Carl:ALL: I will return 0100598 at 0715AM, vacation and travel are next. Continue thinking and reading, til then. - 21:09:44 on 19 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:LPARSONS- You agree that women or womyns as you would have it, should "submit to male leadership"? Am I understanding you correctly? - 21:12:42 on 19 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene..we'll miss you..:CARL- Have a good vacation guy! - 21:13:56 on 19 Dec 97 GMT

Steven:MARLENE<<>> I could go back and look for it, but could you post it again! I am slammed at work. - 21:14:32 on 19 Dec 97 GMT

PapaSam:MARLENE. You can force atheism on people just as you can force religion on them, but religion fills an emotional need common to most people. Religion is like the little teddy bear a child takes to bed, a source of comfort. Look at the former Soviet Union where atheism was taught in the schools. When the kids got home from school the parents, unless themselves atheists, rubbed their religion off on them. Now, in the new Russia, you see an official state religion with people falling all over themselves to join. The same thing will happen in Cuba when they collapse, as they undoubtedly will. - 21:15:45 on 19 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:PAPASAM- I'm not in anyway suggesting atheism should be forced on anyone (although I think it should be pointed out as the most reasonable truth). What I said was, I have yet to hear from someone who was raised atheist from a true atheist society. - 21:39:16 on 19 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene..here's the copy..the guy even wrote me back:STEVE- You may be interested in this one. The spokesman for the Freedom form Religion Foundation WAS an ordained minister and more interesting yet is, a Native American. During this afternoon emotionally charged talk show, someone brought up that Hitler was a yic. Looney Larry the yic talk show host said "He really wasn't a christian" (Where have we heard that line before?). Anyway, Barker (the spokesman) related but "Yes he was really a christian" and extermined jews as xtianity suggests it. Anyhow ole Larry stated that there was absolutely no violence done by xtians in christs name. Then Barker hit him with the big one saying that christians came to his ancestors with a bible in one hand and a gun in the other. I've leaving the URL for the foundation if you'd be interested in contacting him. - 22:23:31 on 18 Dec 97 GM - 21:42:59 on 19 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene..missing the girlfriend:JOETTE- Where are you today?? Stay after work for a little mythmas champagne? - 21:45:43 on 19 Dec 97 GMT

PapaSam:PARSONS. You take the bible as true literature, then yoy interpret it, then you look for analogies, then you select parts in which you believe without reservation. You talk about the core of christianity. Let us examine the religion which you seem is so great. Let,s start with your god. He is a very jealous god. He is a murderous god encouraging warfare and slaughter. Since he is all powerful (or don't you think he is?) he gets all the credit and blame for everything. He plays all kinds of parlor tricks through his puppet humans. He destroys Sodom and Gomorrah because they were nasty except for Lot, his wife and daughters. His wife turned around for a last look and god turned her into a pillar of salt for peeking. After Lot and his daughters settled down for a rest Lot and his daughters committed incest. That didn't rate any penalty from god. I wonder why he brimstoned Sodom but apparently it wasn't incest. This god seems queer to me. He likes to talk through burning bushes among other things. He's really great at killing people. If you think brimstoning Sodom and Gomorrah waas a big deal wait till I tell you about the flood. Of course if you read the bible you know all about it but I don't think you put into the right perspective. Here again people din't listen to him and behave right so he really showed them. The only good people in the whole world were Noah and his family so he told them how to build this boat which they called an Ark. They brought on some of the animals of each species they knew about and after everybody was aboard ggd made it rain for 40 days and nights until the whole world was flooded even over the mountain tops. He drowned everbody and every animal and everything else. He drowned the babies suckling at their mothers' breasts, he drowned the toddlers. He really punished those little bastards. They'll know better next time. As for the little kittens and cute little puppies, well, they just happened to be in the wrong place at the right time. - 21:48:26 on 19 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:PAPASAM- And my favorite, I thinks it's Kings2, when god sent a she bear out of the woods to kill all these little children who laughed at a bald man. Sheesh, speak about harsh punishment! - 22:13:47 on 19 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:-->PAPASAM...I'm a little bit confused...do you condone the use of something mythological? I believe that in doing so you are allowing people to live in a fantasy land, detached from reality, which to me is dangerous and anti-life. - 23:05:59 on 19 Dec 97 GMT

PapaSam:JOETTEE. You hit the enemy where you find them. I wanted to show him that even in his so called area of knowledge in which he professes to be an expert, he doesn't know what he is talking about and is either ignorant of the basic facts or too stupid to rcognize them. More on his boy jesus will follow. - 23:49:30 on 19 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:--->MARLENE..no champagne at work today, but a really great Vietnamese lunch! Unfortunately those beans are keeping so busy these days that I actually have to do some work!!!!!! Thanks for the rundown on that talk show. Sounds like Mr. Barker stayed the course beautifully! And good for you to follow up with him! I wish I could have heard it myself. I've got the VCR all set to tape South Park for you tonight...got company coming for a bit, so I'll talk to you later. - 0:34:31 on 20 Dec 97 GMT

PapaSam:PARSONS. Now I'll talk about your god's son jesus. Again, correct me if I'm wrong. Your god got a young virgin girl pregnant. Did he use sperm and if so, whose? Was it in vitro fertilization or a case of parthenogenesis? Or did he have sexual intercourse with her without deflowering her? This your field and you have the expertise so give me a clear and simple explanation. Now as to this guy jesus. All you hear about him in your churches is his "love thy neighbor" and "Turn the other cheek".You never tell the parts where he tells a man to go against his father, a daughter to go against her mother, daughter-in-law against her mother-in=law, parents against their children rather than deny him. In other words, your family means nothing compared to me. I am first. He also wants his enemies to be brought before him and be slain in his presence. This is a far cry from the loving caring picture you like to present. As for your god's relationship with his supposed son. Here we have agod who is presumably omnipotent, all knowing, kind and loving. Let me know if I'm wrong and you do not believe it. If you do, explain the following. This all powerful god has his son crucified and killed. I won't go into the reasons. I just know that I wouldn't allow that to happen to my son. Yet here we have a presumably omnipotent god doing it. Being the all powerful being he is he should be able to get any results he wishes without having to resort to his son's murder or any parlor tricks. How you can possibly believe this nonsense and consider yourself a logical reasonable human being is beyond me. The answer is obvious. You drank it in with your mothers milk and your emotions block off your thinking process. - 4:02:08 on 20 Dec 97 GMT

PapaSam:PARSONS. Your quote. "God became a part of his creation and died at the hands of the very beings he made in order to save them from death and hell." Read that over a few times. Does it really make any sense to you? It sure doesn't to me. To quote from Macbeth: "It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury and signifying nothing." As for your PKs, they seem like a group of insecure individuals with a need to lord it over someone, so they picked women. They would like women to follow them like a dog on a leash. Any woman who buys into that philosophy deserves nothing better. As a man I did not consider my wife to be my inferior. I do not consider my daughters to be inferior. As for the PKs, if they feel the need to be 'top man on the totem pole' they coould play some of the old children's like 'king of the hill'. - 4:30:48 on 20 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:PAPASAM- Very good description of the pks! As a woman, what bothers me more are the insecure doormats who marry and stay married to these guys. This isn't a case of being raised to be a doormat. We have some pk culters in this areas. The mothers of these pk wives are upset that their daughters reverted to being "just wives". One of the moms, in fact, is a lawyer who in her spare time even volunteers at a woman's shelter. Although most pk's don't likely physically abuse their wives, I see treating woman as inferior to man as mental abuse. What a negative message for their children! - 15:33:11 on 20 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene..in the mythmas mood..this one's for Dicky:He came upon a midnight clear, this manic man of old..He saw angels bending near the earth, he was normal so were told. Piss on the earth, I'm more than man, said this demented king, Since then the world in turmoil cries, like a pig with a gold nose ring. - 15:54:54 on 20 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene..and this one's for Quake:Quake in the eastern streets abiding..his glistening eyes are bright..he greets you with his mornful tidings..just what you didn't want to see or hear that night...Quake in excelsis declamatio...Quake in excelsis declamatio..We all know it's a fable, but not he in his oblivious bliss..as long as he is strong and able, on the streets his strain is this..Quake in excelsis declamatio..Quake in excelsis declamatio - 16:19:54 on 20 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:-->MARLENE..two enthusiastic thumbs up for those lyrics. You are brilliant! - 16:48:13 on 20 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- Do you mean, like a star? I know they're fairly crude but hey, I never did do well in writing class. Unlike the typing one, at least I didn't get booted out. How about doing "tis the season" on the discussion this weekend? Everyone could add their mythmas stories or songs and dedicate them all to our yic contributors. Who says we atheists are heartless? - 16:54:41 on 20 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:-->MARLENE...don't sell yourself so short...you are very clever with your songs. As far as getting booted out of classes, geography and Spanish were my problem classes. As soon as I walked into the room, the teachers would automatically write out detention slips and off I'd go. It was okay, because my friends were all on another lunch period, so we would meet in the washroom to sneak a smoke before I went to the detention room...I was such a bad girl! (but what frustrated the teachers more was that I would still end up getting really high marks...). Anyway, "tis the season" sounds good. So far, we have been busy with lots of company, and having our visitor from England is a real treat! How about you? - 17:15:38 on 20 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- I haven't really been too busy. I only have a couple of things yet to make, I have my mythmas shopping done, did a major cleaning in the house yesterday (although you wouldn't know it, I have two dogs) and that's about it. I going to visit a family memeber tomorrow who won't beable to make it at mythmas, so that will be nice. How does your friend from jolly old.. like Canada? - 17:23:13 on 20 Dec 97 GMT

PETER:The Promise Keepers remind me of these other groups like the Family Coalition Party and the like. On the surface they have this squeaky clean, wholesome, upright moralistic facade; but scratch it slightly, and you have, repression, bigotry, inequality--ultimately resulting an assault on one's right to exist for his own sake, control, demagoguery, intolerance, narrow-mindedness, anti-intelligence,collectivism. In other words you have all the building blocks squarely put into place which have perpetuated EVERY social problem in the history of mankind - 17:34:05 on 20 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene..and this is for Peter:Twas' the night before mythmas and all through the land, everyone was reading a bit of Ayn Rand. Everyone choose the Santa Claus myth, instead of the jesus one with his wine and his fish, Santa is fun and mentally sound, he doesn't need a bunch of disciples around. Santa doesn't demand you love him more than dad, not like jesus who was so insecure he was sad. No wars have been fought over Santa to date, that's more than we can say of jesus of late. We keep in mind that Santa's not real but it the goodwill to others at mythmas we feel. While Santa brings the gifts of joy for the new season, we atheists hold with sense and reason. - 17:50:20 on 20 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene..this be for Joette:In da eas, snow is glisnin' by da fire we be shiverin', we be happy tonight, spring it be in site, freezin in da winter canuk lan'... da breeze it be chillin' the hearths we be fillin' We sorry came, we miss da sugar cane..freezin in da winter canuk lan.. - 18:03:37 on 20 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene..and for the boys in Texas:Don't rest ye merry Texas men, you've everything to dismay..for your congressmen have pushed the NAFTA, now no one knows if jobs are sound from day to day, sad tidings of the unemployed, sad tidings of the unemployed. - 18:47:29 on 20 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene this one's for Grant because of his locality:They came upon Mt. Ranier those UFO from space, flying in formation or'e the earth, they thought, what a nice place..with men in black and probes galore , Bud Hopkins' books sell more. John Mack is busy writing books, that's what psychiatrists are for. - 21:51:58 on 20 Dec 97 GMT

flexter:I don't know how anyone can believe in God....when there is not only no supporting evidence, but conflicting evidence. T - 0:26:40 on 21 Dec 97 GMT

PapaSam:MARLENE. Perhaps you can coin a name for the PK wives. Something similar to the "Uncle Tom" in use by African-Americans. Something like "Mrs. Asskis". Let your creative juices flow! - 1:12:45 on 21 Dec 97 GMT

PETER:--flexter--Amazing isn't it? And what is even more dumbfounding is that about 80-95% of the earth's inhabitants do believe in some sort of a deistic entity. - 1:36:31 on 21 Dec 97 GMT

PETER:--MARLENE--Hilarious and fitting lyrics! - 1:38:02 on 21 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:-->MARLENE...still pattering on about that radio station, you mentioned that the second hours was going to be about how atheists spend mythmus. Did anyone offer how they spend it? - 2:16:45 on 21 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:-->TO ALL..in the province where I live, tomorrow is officially "Lighten Up Day" because as you know tomorrow is the winter solstice and people are being encouraged to turn on as many lights in their house as they see fit in order to celebrate it. I find this rather amusing, given how xtians have always denied that this xmas tradition goes back to the days of the Celts that celebrated Yule on this day, and that is the reason for this particular season. Also, there is going to be a huge gathering of those that practice Wicca in a town not far from here that has extended and open invitation to anyone interested in attending. I for one think it might be interesting, and just might go and watch the ceremony. - 2:21:14 on 21 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- Actually, no, no one got a chance to say anything with Larry the yic going on about his insane belief. When ever someone called in he took there first few words and tried to twist them into something they were not. The callers did get a chance to tell that this is not what they said before he went to a break. The whole show turned out to be totally out of his control. It became an argument against atheism on his part. I really think he thought he'd have the support he did during Shermer's interview but it backfired on him. It was really humorous actually and Dan Baker, in his email to me, said he really enjoyed himself. No wonder, he had the upper hand all the way through! It made my day too! A bit more later, I can't miss The Practice! - 2:58:52 on 21 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:-->MARLENE...I wanted to mention that South Park their xmas show last night, and I can't wait to send it to you! It was so funny that I have to watch it again! - 3:08:59 on 21 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- I think it would be rather fun to attend a wican ceremony, if nothing else, to find out what it's about. Wicca like any other religion does include the supernatural but are a litle more into the natural things of this planet than any other I know of. I really look forward to this day. The days just keep getting brighter after today! - 4:08:28 on 21 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:PAPASAM- Mrs. Asskis sounds good to me! - 4:10:18 on 21 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE and PETER- I'm looking forward to this South Park! Well time to hit the sack. Goodnight atheists! - 4:11:58 on 21 Dec 97 GMT

PapaSam:ANY AND ALL. A few questions. The Wicca thing, is it a witches gathering? If so, what is the relationship between the sexes in the coven? Are the witches and the warlocks on an equal footing? One other unrelated question about the moslem religion. When a moslem male dies for his cause he goes to his heaven and he has four wives or houris or similar females to wait on him. What happens when a female moslem dies in the good fight? Does she get four husbands? - 4:54:30 on 21 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:PAPASAM- From what I understand of the world of white witchcraft, yes the witches and warlocks are on equal footing. In fact the female goddess of rebirth is the main one. Now for the muslims. I have friends who are fundamental Arab muslims. I haven't seen them or heard from them in over a year. The husband, Mousa, had went to university instead of serving out his time in his country's military and may have been in big trouble when he arrived home. The wife, Salwa, has a family member in jail for life (he was only 16 when he was incarserated) for disagreeing with his goverment so just how safe her family was, I'm not sure. Anyway I was learning Arabic from her for two years and also had the opportunity to learn much about their religion. These were sunni muslims so they only had one wife/one husband. Contrary to what most believe, the wife is boss within her home. Mousa smoked, for instance, but not allowed to smoke in their home. They both met at school in the Middle East so they marriage wasn't pre arranged (this is more a Persian than Arab thing although some Arabs still do this in the more fundamental countries such as Saudi Arabia). Anyway, heaven to a muslim is this, beauty. For the men, beautiful women, for the women, beautiful flowers, clothes and fragrances. In the Middle East fragrances are not only worn (like perfume) they are also baked into "halwa"(sweets). For instance rosewater along with almonds flavor cookies which are more almonds than flour like ours are. Interesting.. - 14:25:26 on 21 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:PAPASAM- To add, the wife was English news editor for Kwiati TV and had all kinds of degrees of her own, she was only 27 when I first met her. She had two children who went to daycare while she took a few courses at the university here just to keep her busy. In some countries in the Middle East women aren't as downtrodden as in others. She also had an aunt and uncle who were divorced. The uncle "had" to take the children of the marriage and raise them as the man is considered the provider. The aunt had a right to visit the children whenever she wanted and the uncle had to provide a room in his home for his ex-wife to carry out her visiting. Interesting also. The ex-wives are happy with this arrangement as there are very few deadbeat dad's in this arrangement. Salwa's father is a judge and of course the law of the land is the law of the koran. Salwa was part of a group (and likely still is) that formed to protest the death penalty in the Middle East. Her father was very set against the death penalty but had to sentence people as it was the law of the koran. The younger people such as Salwa and Mousa are much more fundamental muslims but are also trying to change some of the archaic laws of the koran. - 14:41:47 on 21 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:PAPASAM- Again something to add to the above. By fundamental I mean, they adhere to the dress etc. but the fundamentalism comes in with politics. They are much less concerned with they're dress for instance but more concerned with the democracy they claim the koran speaks of. They would like to have the kings and emirs removed from power and the governments run by the people. - 14:47:36 on 21 Dec 97 GMT

Linda (Papasam's daughter):MARLENE; As a mere observer here (I read any of the good stuff my Dad saves), I thought you'd be interested in knowing...My father was the first feminist I ever met. Only we didn't have a name for it way back then and I didn't know anyone had it any different. I count by blessings. (Oops, I mean luck of the draw.) - 22:10:20 on 21 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:YIKES- Where is everyone??? HI LINDA! I think your dad's kind of neat too! - 0:52:45 on 22 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:Ooooooo! It's jus so nice here in Manitobatown!It's -1C and the high expected for mythmas day, -4C. I love El Nino! I understood we were not supposed to see much of an effect but this weather is a wonderful surprise! This will make our winter much shorter! I had a really nice day visiting, gonna watch good ole Hank Hill and the XFiles. I shall return after that! Bet that girlfriend, Joette, is sampling the wine or something??? - 1:09:49 on 22 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:X-Files a repeat so I'm watching a movie with Patty Duke in it but King of the Hill was great tonight. Did anyone watch it? - 2:24:00 on 22 Dec 97 GMT

Mac:Am having a hard time dealing with this time of year and a 5 year old daughter who, of course, wants to believe in Saint Nick Have been an atheist since college. - 5:59:27 on 22 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:-->MAC..as long as you leave the christ out of christmas, and just enjoy the phony sense of peace and good will towards man that people try to exude at this time of year, then sit back and enjoy. Also, what's wrong with a 5 year old believing in the jolly old fella? She'll find out in a year or two that he isn't real, and she probably won't suffer any long term affects from it. On this page, we tend to celebrate Santa Claus as our myth, so what the hey! - 12:27:05 on 22 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:-->MARLENE..I've been trying to come up with a song dedicated to you, but I have writer's block. I think this weather sucks! I want snow! Yesterday it was so warm that we had a barbecue! - 12:30:38 on 22 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:MAC- I agree with Joette. Young children enjoy Santa but soon find out he's not real. I see nothing wrong with this myth. In fact I see nothing negative about the Santa myth at all which is more than I can say for the jesus myth. - 14:28:27 on 22 Dec 97 GMT

Steven:MARLENE<<>> I want a song! snif snif. - 14:50:33 on 22 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:STEVEN- The Texas one was for you but I'll see what I can do for something more personal. Are you getting things caught up? - 15:03:17 on 22 Dec 97 GMT

Steven:MARLENE<<>> yes, i am caught up. I needed to have some code done so we could qual it. Anyway, now I can play a little more at work. - 15:11:48 on 22 Dec 97 GMT

STEVEN- here's one:Hither yics and stand by me, if thou knowest it telling...your god is pure mythology, no matter what your yelling...biblical stories told to kids are sick, cold and cruel...All the bibles we should rid and use them for winter fuel. - 16:36:49 on 22 Dec 97 GMT

Steven:MARLENE<<>> that was beeutifel! - 16:51:50 on 22 Dec 97 GMT

Steven:ANY<<>> Thomas Paine is the man!!!!! - 18:45:05 on 22 Dec 97 GMT

RON...(Ho Ho Ho)...: I just want to get laid by Mythmas... - 18:50:58 on 22 Dec 97 GMT

Steven:ANY<<>> I was reading the Dallas Morning Propaganda this morning and guess what was in/on the front page. "The greatest rise in people believing in God in 10yrs". They put some made up statistics and such in there. I guess the figure that the majority of sheep haven't taken a stat class and know that you can make stats prove anything you want them to. Then, by this time completly disgusted, I read the editorials. There are two editorials, one espousing seeing god in everything and the other complaining about people the gov. in New Jersey removing all christian symbols off of public building. I thought that the press was SUPPOSED to report NEWS not print this biased religous dogma. I AM SO FUCKING FRUSTATED THAT THIS BS CONTINUES. Will it ever end? - 19:02:57 on 22 Dec 97 GMT

Steven:ANY<<>> has everyone taken off for mythmas? - 21:40:42 on 22 Dec 97 GMT

PapaSam:STEVEN. Calm down. Don't let yourself get worked up over the fact that people are stupid. It is not an easy thing to try to reason against something they lapped up with their mmother's milk and in their childhood. It's like kicking mommy and daddy on the behind and who would want to do that. Maybe you should take a new approach and get into the bible selling business and make a fortune out of their gullibility. Don't get mad - I was just kidding. I've got to sign off now.I'm going to check out the bible publishers. - 21:51:47 on 22 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene..back to normal in 2001:STEVEN- Hey, that removing of yic paraphernalia off government property is good news! They're still reporting news but adding their opinion to please the public. If the majority of the population were atheist, then they'd put an atheist spin on it. I think they may be reporting properly when they reported that there is an increase in god believers. I think there is always a increase in believers nearing a new millennia. Pretty stupid considering that it's likely the year four billion something rather than 2000. Like Papa says, people are stupid! - 22:02:55 on 22 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene..and the sun sets a little later too:JOETTE- Did you go and check out that wiccan thing? Still no snow here, sunny and -4C. This will be the first mythmas in my almost half century that will be a brown one if it continues to be nice. I can definately handle this! - 22:07:31 on 22 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene..sorry but..:Ron- Mythmas doesn't do Texans! - 22:09:17 on 22 Dec 97 GMT

Joette:-->RON..well do it right then. Find the closest manger and bang away. - 22:15:22 on 22 Dec 97 GMT

Joette :-->MARLENE..unfortunately something else came up and so I didn't have a chance to go. Maybe next year...unless Ron's aliens kill us all in May. - 22:16:58 on 22 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- That's right too, the EVENT happens this May. Speaking of murdering aliens, I watched Mars Attacks on Saturday night. The only thing that killed them.....yodeling (yikes it'd kill anything). It blew their brains out. So! Come May arm yourself with yodeling music and you'll be safe! - 23:02:22 on 22 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:Well, I have to go out now, visiting, yucth! I hate visiting, I'm such an intovert! I'd much rather play tetris or solataire. - 23:05:51 on 22 Dec 97 GMT

Adam AH KNOW A GOOD SONG!:Jo-Jo-Joette: How about "Kayh'sh Mother eesh a stewpid bitch" een D-Mahnor? - 23:06:38 on 22 Dec 97 GMT

PapaSam:ADAM. I don't give ADAM what people say. Keep your punning running. By the way, Ijust had a little crawling creature complaining that he was unfairly selected for fish bait and wants to sue. Could you be attorney for the wormy? - 1:52:41 on 23 Dec 97 GMT

jaywilson:MARLENE: Alas, it was not yodeling, the shepherds' radio, that felled the Martians; nay, it was the yippie-ti-yodel-ti-yay factory-whistle adenoidal stylings of Slim Whitman. Y'all have a happy. - 1:55:32 on 23 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene..gawd awful music!!:JAYWILSON- Merry mythmas to you too! Was it Slim Whitman singing that gawd awful noise? My parents had records of, I think it was Wilf Carter or Hank Snow that was almost as bad. What was really bed was when my aunt tried to sound just like them. - 4:44:00 on 23 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:What is this, everyone last minute shopping? Our paper reported yesterday that the three shootings in Canada of docotrs who preform abortions may be connected to a nutcase group in the US called the Army of God. Check out their site! - 15:32:26 on 23 Dec 97 GMT

Marlene:oops! I worded that last post wrongly, this is a pro-choice site that lists what the Army of God resorts to. - 15:34:38 on 23 Dec 97 GMT

Joette the really, really bad poette:-->t'was two days before mythmas, and all through the page, not a person was posting, not even Marlene the sage. The bibles are hung by the chimney with care, in hopes that the fireplace soon will flare. The atheists are nestled all snug in their beds, with visions of Quake going around in their heads. And I in my nudity, and my partner in his cap, have just settled in for a long winter's nap. Then out on the rooftop their rose such a clatter, I opened the sash to see what was the matter.