Marlene:JOE- As far as I understand evolution is a progression of small steps and no giant ones. - 5:07:43 on 1 Dec 99 GMT

Marlene:CARL- Well... your poetry is much more positive than the Hollow Man! - 5:08:45 on 1 Dec 99 GMT

Marlene:DOUG- Have you read this book? It sounds interesting. Our Chapters here sometimes leaves a sour taste in my mouth. I went to buy a Stenger book the other day when I was looking for Skeptic and they didn't have anything written by him in so I had to order it. The book you've suggested has just been put on my list but I bet they don't have that either. What really got me was when I asked the girl working in the mag section when she expects Skeptic to be in. She was looking through her sheet and found it listed under "Fantasy". Imagine the guy buying a $9 Skeptic expecting a good alien abduction story and discovering it's just good ole boring articles on reality. - 5:16:24 on 1 Dec 99 GMT

Marlene:GRANT- You'd think an intelligent designer would have the intelligence to design something that lasts. Many species don't of course. - 5:20:41 on 1 Dec 99 GMT

Grant:Marlene-- Did you order _The Unconcious Quantum_? If so, I don't think you'll be disappointed. You'll especially appreciate it it you've read any of the popular quantum physics books, of which I could list about two pages of complaints. It's factual, down-to-earth, devoid of any personal philosophy or idealistic ideology. I really was/are planning to send it to you when I finish it. I'm splitting my reading time between it and the mass media books recommended by jaywilson, which are also excellent, and another very good book on advertising, _Fables of Abundance: A Cultural History of Advertising in America_ by Jackson Lears. -- In the magazine department, the December issue of _Scientific American_ has a great article by Frans de Waal, who you are familiar with, and _How the Brain Creates the Mind_ by Antonio Damasio, which has me putting books on conciousness on my mythmas list. - 13:59:22 on 1 Dec 99 GMT

Doug:Marlene: Yes I've read the book and highly recommend that anyone who wants to debunk ID (Behe and Johnson type) read it.Pennock tears Behe and Johnson apart.The ID movement is a greater danger to science education than the fundy creationists could ever be, short of a fundy coup.I agree with there about "Skeptic" and books on freethought not being in stock.Most libraries don't have these publications either, in fact I challenge anybody to find atheist books like "losing faith in faith" on a continental library basis. Some universities might have copies, but not public libraries. - 14:02:24 on 1 Dec 99 GMT

Carl:OPEN: So who here is near Seattle, or who here understands the issues, the cause of the fracas there? What I saw that was being spoken of looked like some kind o'movie about the terror and might of a police state. But anyways, maybe the protest linked to the economic well being o'those living in Seattle? What are their fears? Gads! I dare not think they want a religion setup and allowed somewhere. - 16:20:33 on 1 Dec 99 GMT

Carl:MARLENE: nearly finished reading the book, most interesting for this site as it turns out, is the religious trail that that book seems to reveal. What drove me into pages of this book was another book I was reading titled "The Ruling Race of Prehistoric Times" by JF Hewitt. The author banked many of his points on an Aryan thing and religion. I was annoyed at his continual use of the conjunction therein, "and". The regular reference to that point of view just didn't set right so, I started to look for a view that balanced the author's views. What Hewitt wrote, o'noteworth, almost coincides with the authoress of "When God was a Woman" who also referred to an aryan thing she wrote was, from out of the north. It looks very much like the jews and a lot of if not all of egypt, their storys have clear and very definite links to ancient india and china. Both o'these peoples were old when egypt was new and there was no such thing as a hebrew/jew. This goes along w/another account I read of the pyramids o'which a TLC program says was basically built by a regular work force of people, no slaves. Of another point o'view, when a person refers to the 'western civilsation' does this essentially cut out any relevant link to matters of human wealth from India and China? Furthermore, does not this effectively "keep" someone like a religious-xian from looking beyond the western civilisation's so-said epistomology of the Judeo/Roman/Greeks, for if they do look, they may find how or where their "religious-faith" first began? They'd see that no godthing was ever involved. - 18:33:54 on 1 Dec 99 GMT

Marlene:CARL- Yes it is interesting too how the "god" believers don't seem to make a connection with their myths and the myths of older religions. On the restlessness in Seattle, the protest involves everyone in the US and even many here in Canada. Big business loves to set up their plants in areas like Mexico and hire everyone at $1.50 an hour. There are definately +++ to capitalism but there are also lots of ----. I doubt though that the protest will result in nothing but media coverage. - 0:02:58 on 2 Dec 99 GMT

Marlene:GRANT- Yes it was the Unconscious Quantum. I wonder though how long it will be for them to order it in. I called today after reading your post but it's still not in. Yikes! Grant, not too much consciousness stuff, might start calling you Josh! - 0:08:08 on 2 Dec 99 GMT

Marlene:DOUG- I'll have to check the public library in Winnipeg downtown and see if they do have any skeptic type material. I have to trudge downtown later this month and need to waste some time so you've just given me an idea of what I can do. - 0:10:47 on 2 Dec 99 GMT

Marlene:HEY! I GOT A QUESTION????- Can anyone recommend an NON- religious organization that one can sponser a child through. My partner and I have decided to do this but I prefer an organization that is more interested in the child than promoting their religion. World Vision is a christian organization so unless we have to, we don't want to go through them. - 0:43:42 on 2 Dec 99 GMT

Doug:Marlene: If you have inter-library loan in Canada(I,m sure you do)You can request a book from any particapating library and it's good for one whole month.Just look up the titles on the web in Canadian libraries(maybe USA too, but don't know if they will honor request),to show your librarian where to find it.The librarian can also look it up it's their job, but you might sometimes get a pious one who tries to control what other people read.In the "big city" you shouldn't have that type of problem.Follow the link to some Canadian University libraries, it even has Winnipeg public library on it. 1. Smith, George H. 211.8 SMI Atheism : the case against God / 2. Kung, Hans, 1928- 200.1 KUN Freud and the problem of God / 3. MacIntyre, Alasdair C. 211.80904 MacI The religious significance of atheism / 4. Marty, Martin E., 1928- 211 MAR Varieties of unbelief. -- 5. Nielsen, Kai, 1926- 211.8 NIE Philosophy & atheism : in defense of ath 6. Gay, Peter, 1923- 150.1952 GAY A Godless Jew : Freud, atheism, and the 7. Ellis, Albert. 211.8 ELL The case against religion : a psychother 8. Bakunin, Mikhail Aleksandrovich, 1814-1876 335.83 BAK God and the state / 9. Kung, Hans, 1928- 200.19 KUN Freud and the problem of God / 10. Miceli, Vincent P., 1915- 211.8 MIC The gods of atheism / 11. Lacroix, Jean, 1900- 211.8 LAC The meaning of modern atheism / 12. Nielsen, Kai, 1926- 146 NIE Naturalism without foundations / 13. Angeles, Peter Adam, 1931- 211 CRI Critiques of God : making the case again ****** and a whole lot more! - 3:12:34 on 2 Dec 99 GMT

Marlene:YIKES! DOUG! (LOL)- librarians in Canada may find that a little challenging! BTW thanks for all the titles and authors and I think I will take your advice and see if I can join a Winnipeg library. Many won't let non-residents join but I could likely use a relative's address. Do you know of any non-religious organizations that have a program like World Vision does, minus the religion of course???? - 5:03:48 on 2 Dec 99 GMT

Doug:Marlene: How about UNICEF, it's secular to the point of being blind.And they really do give needed care to chilren world wide.That's who I donate to.I'm not sure if this is what World Vision does, never heard of it. - 6:12:30 on 2 Dec 99 GMT

Doug:Marlene: don't you have a local library where you live? And there is such a thing as interlibrary loan in the states. All you have to do is fill out a form, usually there is not fee.Here is a site for the National Library of Canada. So you do have it in Canada, now you need a local library.You know from reading this site, All libraries in the USA will honor your requests for interlibrary loan. You must have a library fill out and send the requests! - 6:20:36 on 2 Dec 99 GMT

Marlene:DOUG- No, I don't have a library where I live. Actually it's about 50 miles away. There is a library in the small town that I live near but it's that mennonite town I've mentioned and they have nothing in that one. But I am going to check out the library in Winnipeg and likely I'll give my daughter's address. Thanks for all the help! It would be so much less expensive to join it than buy all the books. My list is a mile long! - 15:14:26 on 2 Dec 99 GMT

Carl:MARLENE: As I've mentioned before of the xian gospels o'jc, only one is overloaded with regular references to the word/idea that an individual had to-"believe"-in. Of that gospel, I noted as o'interest, are linked the claims of such being interpolations in certain parts of the bible as- coincidently, these support that gospel. Anyhow, once one puts themselves in that state of mind, that they believe-in, then any and all xian interests become much simpler, easier to promote. Especially, I must assert, researching to see if whatever the xian leaders say is or are true! In this regard, perhaps the Piso site may be on to something. - 18:14:52 on 2 Dec 99 GMT

Doug:Marlene: Any library will do interlibrary loan even the small one near you.They all particapate in the interloan system, even if it isn't freethought you should go through your local library.Not that you're doing anything wrong in trying to get a Winnipeg library card.Remember that with interlibrary loan you get the books for 1 whole month.Oh don't go out and buy them until you have read them first. - 0:16:11 on 3 Dec 99 GMT

Marlene:YIKES DOUG- Since I'm not partial to complete shunning, I'm going to stick with the Winnipeg library, lol! I think I found an organization that is non-religious called "Save the Children". It's rather hard to get info on these outfits to see what their goal actually is. - 4:11:06 on 3 Dec 99 GMT

ant:reverse map - 6:52:20 on 3 Dec 99 GMT

I have eternity to know your flesh: lets type Carl says burn witch burn - 8:04:29 on 3 Dec 99 GMT

the monkey labels a metal tree:--(-)the monkey says i like math too (squares) -test Skippy Skip what a rush charles graham writes like a queen of this page i win everytime russ t pipes seal clubbing steven i read raptor 3 times lenn~~~fun fun fun think about fleetwood mac rumur rokkman blood sugar sex magick shutup you dumbfuck the monkey says did you study the monkey like a good lemming jaywilson rickey i love you papasam speak to me in many voices - 8:37:47 on 3 Dec 99 GMT

magical square equations and their applications:(k) we are many we are noone bob hummmmmm!!! - 8:53:34 on 3 Dec 99 GMT

The night is black Without a moon The air is thick, and still The vigilantes gather on The lonely torchlit hill Features distorted in the flickering light The faces are twisted and grotesque Silent and stern in the sweltering night The mob moves like demons possessed Quiet in conscience, calm in their right --- Confident their ways are best The righteous rise With burning eyes Of hatred and ill-will Madmen fed on fear and lies To beat, and burn, and kill They say there are strangers, who threaten us In our immigrants and infidels They say there is strangeness, too dangerous In our theatres and bookstore shelves That those who know what's best for us --- Must rise and save us from ourselves Quick to judge Quick to anger Slow to understand Ignorance and prejudice And fear Walk hand in hand - 9:08:34 on 3 Dec 99 GMT

fudge stick of fudge whale/shit:Type your comment in the box below Mrs. Schwann. Would you like so more ice cream Doc. All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy. - 9:20:16 on 3 Dec 99 GMT

Joette to rob don't go:zwei - 9:36:21 on 3 Dec 99 GMT

jaywilson to the beastmaster The SURFING LAWYER Men's Issues No i do not like Legend but i do like spy movies 007 familiars ants used in witchcraft - 10:02:32 on 3 Dec 99 GMT

jaywilson:OPEN: hypocritical piss-ant relies more on a machine than its mind? - 10:10:17 on 3 Dec 99 GMT

The Tony:to the shine poster nice cat names but anyway- Quantum Quackery is the field of quantum mechanics reviving the ancient mystic principle that human consciousness is in control of reality. Read why this is wrong http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/8724/stengera.h... - 10:21:44 on 3 Dec 99 GMT

Peter:Quake: you are and will always be an ??? snake is that you the duke's got em. Let us pretend I wrote this:''Timequake,'' is, as Vonnegut describes it, a ''stew.'' He has taken the best pickings from a novel that wasn't working and interspersed them with a running commentary on his own life and the state of the universe. The mix is thick and rich: a political novel that's not a novel, a memoir that is not inclined to reveal the most private details of the writer's life. type the little piss-ant has faults in logic oops - 10:33:20 on 3 Dec 99 GMT

Marlene such nonsense:goodnight atheists PADOJO - 10:41:01 on 3 Dec 99 GMT

passing thru and type lithium used with ants hi nervous*t rex - 10:51:33 on 3 Dec 99 GMT

Rob of the roses every algol has his day:Homology theories I suppose sit boo boo sit. Let this war of the roses come to its logical conclusion! - 11:03:58 on 3 Dec 99 GMT

Rosey again:immoral amoral stevenson emotive feelings directed towards the Tony - 11:13:00 on 3 Dec 99 GMT

dana and the druid child zwei:Hi Grant! - 11:22:17 on 3 Dec 99 GMT

ADAM@@@:NO I am not a lawyer or I am not a lawyer. It doesn't really matter right Rosey. It's all good right Lenn~~~. Hey my man nervous have any mp3's of zepplen . I especially like a particular song on Houses of the Holy. Oh yes I have an eternity my phren like tadpoles in a (jar)! - 11:32:04 on 3 Dec 99 GMT

Charles Graham just english today Chomsky would be melding with the trees anyway(s):PapaSam.This book is an amazingly real Grimoire and textbook on the "summoning" variety of Magick. It's easy to understand, but that doesn't make it for the beginner! Surely, only an experienced Magician can use this book effectively and without dangerous side effects. One word of caution to even the most advanced: BE CAREFUL! This book has well been known to summon things of it's own accord. If you keep a copy around, be sure to perform Banishings daily! the monkey labels a metal tree:--(-)the monkey says i like math too (squares) -test Skippy Skip what a rush charles graham writes like a queen of this page i win everytime russ t pipes seal clubbing steven i read raptor 3 times lenn~~~fun fun fun think about fleetwood mac rumur rokkman blood sugar sex magick shutup you dumbfuck the monkey says did you study the monkey like a good lemming jaywilson rickey i love you papasam speak to me in many voices - 8:37:47 on 3 Dec 99 GMT make a wish foundation speak to me in many voices make them all sound - 11:43:15 on 3 Dec 99 GMT

David as the correct atheist:I remember you id. - 11:52:22 on 3 Dec 99 GMT

Ron and agent It's rather hard to get info on these outfits to see what their goal actually is.Johnson :N J Berill That 1996 marks a century of both UFO reports and cinema seems uncannily appropriate for both exist on the borderlines of fantasy and reality, and both work on the human mind somewhere between the conscious and the unconscious. As a wise man once said, a UFO expert is "a person who knows everything there is to know about UFO's except what they are, who's in them and where they come from"69. Solving the mystery is going to require as much time spent looking inwards at the vast expanse of the human mind, as it is staring out into the great unknown of space. - 12:00:00 on 3 Dec 99 GMT

takes one to know one hershey monkey:type something like delete and rehash like a good --(-)monkey that tool song really hit home my AIM is what caught our our our ire you are right I am arrogant right Peter. Let's pretend about the fbi if your satisfied. Charles Graham I will be back in June. Shutup you dumbfuck. Machine a brain no contest the blair witch project keeps moving on our soul. But PapaSmurf no likey a soul. I don't believe anway(s) either my intention for eternity - 12:13:47 on 3 Dec 99 GMT

Grant (Sorry folks):I cleared the ban list a couple of days ago at the request of an AOL user unable to access us. Don't know if I should be surprised that the nuisance poster is still trying or that it took two days for him/her to notice. - 13:15:20 on 3 Dec 99 GMT

Joette:it's like deja vu all over again! - 13:15:28 on 3 Dec 99 GMT

Marlene:GRANT- Seems the guy is obsessed! NUTS! - 17:10:44 on 3 Dec 99 GMT

Carl:ANY: As goes atheism, from here lets say in particular the USA vista, if the Seattle meet goes forward how will the views and interests of atheism fair before the world? If anything the power-base and force of theism will be or may be greatly enhanced with the additional ignorances of the wider-world. Its a point to ponder here, that perhaps the European dark ages did not really end with europeans coming to the americas. What the religious mindset in the USA want today are certaintys of good and evil. A good example happened last eve when the republican candidate Bauer a specifically religious-backed candidate said he his staff would be composed of those whose mindset was as is his. For example, he said a federal judges appointment would be based on a religious-based litmus test. That is a dark ages view of the world. Now while the dark fella- A. Keyes, pointed out some USA constitutional concerns as such could involve the WTO composition and notions, he too had to drag in the xian thing. On this count if the USA does take steps towards a "global-economy" will it expand its epistomological base- the judeo-roman-greco, in order to accomodate a world or must All accomodate the USA? It ought to be obvious that in a anti-religious argument that it is immoral of the xian-god to be in one's mental existence, to a thoughtful person that would be recognised. I dare think that the pope's trip to India was made to begin a process of restructuring the ancients texts and thoughts there, to fit with xianity. My point, there are some very large looming questions for which atheism should prepare. - 19:58:14 on 3 Dec 99 GMT

Carl:ANY01: of that godthing being immoral, the other day at another chat-site a participant put forward in their post this, aMan + aWoman + aChild = aNuclear Family. Where in this formula is there, would there be room for a godthing? - 23:53:52 on 3 Dec 99 GMT

Marlene:Now well to do business men think they can have a say who will have a bright golden star in heaven. A young boy found $1500(American which BTW is almost $3000 Can.) outside a Winnipeg drive thru and was honest enough to turn it over to the police. The man who lost it claimed it but didn't even offer the kid a burger from the drive thru. He told the kid that there will be a bright golden star waiting for him in heaven. Wasn't he a nice generous christian? - 5:06:35 on 4 Dec 99 GMT

Ricky:Probable not! Marlene, I just thought you might like this! God is like Coca-Cola...........He's the real thing God is like PanAm...............He makes the going great God is like General Electric.....He lights your path God is like Bayer Aspirin.......He works wonders God is like Hallmark Cards......He cares enough to send the very best God is like Tide...............He gets the stains out that others leave behind God is like Dial Soap.........Aren't you glad you know Him God is like Sears.............He has everything God is like Alka-Seltzer......Try Him, you'll like Him God is like Scotch Tape.......you can't see Him but you know He's there! - 23:02:27 on 4 Dec 99 GMT

Marlene:RICKY- LOL! That's cute! Thought you left the country! We haven't heard from you in awhile. - 0:49:08 on 5 Dec 99 GMT

Joette:God is like Ted Bundy...kill, kill, kill! - 5:21:50 on 5 Dec 99 GMT

Grant (Can't sleep):Someone over on a philosophy discussion page lists these questions as "unanswerable." *** Is there an ultimate anything? Reality / good / evil? How do I know? *** Where do we come from and where are we going? *** What is the root of consciousness? *** Is "I" the byproduct of thought, or does thought come from "I"? *** How does my ("I"'s) existence relate to the world of externalities (time & space)? *** Is "I" centripetally impressed, or centrifugally impressing? *** Is there a pristine color white, or does all hold a shade of grey? *** Is the answer to the question always the most important, or is persistent questioning to seek the answer? Is atheism the lazy mind’s way of protecting itself from having to persist? *** --- Anyone care to comment on what’s wrong with this list? - 8:28:05 on 5 Dec 99 GMT

Doug:Grant:" Is atheism the lazy mind’s way of protecting itself from having to persist?"*****No, given the evidence of no evidence there is not one shred of hard evidence of it's existance.Cautious yes, better to not make a "misteake" and confuse it with imagination. All the information is finnally being done to prove just that; theism is only imagination. - 16:01:40 on 5 Dec 99 GMT

Grant:DOUG – Agreed. He is projecting workings of the brain on the universe without offering any justification. The universe doesn’t seem to concern itself with a desire for ultimate good or evil, or a pristine color white, or any other idealized state. The human mind does. The questions: *** "What is the root of consciousness? Is "I" the byproduct of thought, or does thought come from "I"? How does my ("I"'s) existence relate to the world of externalities (time & space)? Is "I" centripetally impressed, or centrifugally impressing?"*** would be valid in another context, but lose meaning in this context of presupposing a framework of purpose for such questions, as demonstrated by the question "Where do we come from and where are we going?" which presupposes things spiritual or supernatural, and the question "Is atheism the lazy mind’s way of protecting itself from having to persist?" which presupposes the existance of a god and implies atheism is the refuge of those unwilling to persist in the difficult search for it. Assbackward thinking, in my opinion. Theism is more likely the mind's way of protecting itself from hard truths. - 17:53:26 on 5 Dec 99 GMT

Doug:Grant: A real heavy one. try reading some of the papers on the link, here.And *****<http://ase.tufts.edu/cogstud/>***** here is D. Dennetts page at Tufts Uni. - 19:07:49 on 5 Dec 99 GMT

Doug:Grant:Try this link to Tufts Uni. instead. - 19:08:46 on 5 Dec 99 GMT

Marlene:GRANT and DOUG- I also agree. Here's a question ...If everyone was taught the golden rule and it's benefits, would we need religion at all? The golden rule being worded as such "Do toward others as you would have them do toward you." - 19:09:17 on 5 Dec 99 GMT

Doug:Grant and Marlene:Read Dennetts comments on "zombies" ******"Flanagan and Polger also fall in the very same trap, however. For instance, they say it is "highly unlikely--implausible to the extreme--that mentalistic vocabulary would evolve among Moody's zombies. But is it metaphysically, logically, or nomically impossible? No." Here getting it half right is getting it all wrong. It is not at all unlikely or implausible that mentalistic vocabulary would evolve among zombies. That must be conceded as part of the concession that zombies are "behavioral" twins of conscious beings; if it is likely that we conscious folks would develop mentalistic vocabulary, then it must be exactly as likely that zombies do. It is just such lapses as this one by Flanagan and Polger that feed the persistent mis-imagination of zombies and make them appear less preposterous than they are."***** Zombies are a theists trap door.The"soul' word isn't used but is hinted at. - 20:15:15 on 5 Dec 99 GMT

Doug:Grant and Marlene: Here are some definitions and assumptions of Consciousness of Self*******"Consciousness of Self [McC95] discusses the kinds of consciousness of its own mental processes a robot will require in order to behave intelligently. Here are a few of them. 1.Keeping a journal of physical and intellectual events so it can refer to its past beliefs, observations and actions. 2.Observing its goal structure and forming sentences about it. Notice that merely having a stack of subgoals doesn't achieve this unless the stack is observable and not merely obeyable. 3.The robot may intend to perform a certain action. It may later infer that certain possibilities are irrelevant in view of its intentions. This requires the ability to observe intentions. 4.Observing how it arrived at its current beliefs. Most of the important beliefs of the system will have been obtained by nonmonotonic reasoning, and therefore are usually uncertain. It will need to maintain a critical view of these beliefs, i.e. believe meta-sentences about them that will aid in revising them when new information warrants doing so. It will presumably be useful to maintain a pedigree for each belief of the system so that it can be revised if its logical ancestors are revised. Reason maintenance systems maintain the pedigrees but not in the form of sentences that can be used in reasoning. Neither do they have introspective subroutines that can observe the pedigrees and generate sentences about them. 5.Not only pedigrees of beliefs but other auxiliary information should either be represented as sentences or be observable in such a way as to give rise to sentences. Thus a system should be able to answer the questions: ``Why do I believe p?'' or alternatively ``Why don't I believe p?''. 6.Regarding its entire mental state up to the present as an object, i.e. a context. [McC93] discusses contexts as formal objects. The ability to transcend one's present context and think about it as an object is an important form of introspection, especially when we compare human and machine intelligence as Roger Penrose (1994) and other philosophical AI critics do. 7.Knowing what goals it can currently achieve and what its choices are for action. We claim that the ability to understand one's own choices constitutes free will. The subject is discussed in detail in [MH69]. Taken together these requirements for successful human-level goal achieving behavior amount to a substantial fraction of human consciousness. A human emotional structure is not required for robots."******These definitions don't presuppose consciousness but ask one if they can veiw one's self as an object. This is consciousness on a Human level, for with out this ability all our actions would be preprogramed. - 20:34:26 on 5 Dec 99 GMT

Grant: Full of, um... words:MARLENE – I don’t see a difference in morals or ethics between religious and non-religious persons, so don’t see religion as necessary in that sense to begin with. However, in evolutionary terms, in the same way one figures a creature has a particular color or markings because such thing was most successful, or in other words beneficial to the creature in the past, (for example, creatures who best blend with their surroundings are less likely to be invited to lunch by predators, and so produce more offspring.) shouldn’t one figure that humans have a particular behavior (religious) because it has been most successful , or beneficial to humans in the past? If this is so, just as an individual creature may be unable to change it’s color characteristics, might an individual human be unable to change its behavioral characteristics? No implication here that religious behavior accurately represents reality or is "good". Just considering that it may be that humans are hard-wired for religious behavior. - 3:46:40 on 6 Dec 99 GMT

Grant:DOUG — I’m enjoying the links. The information is directly relevant. - 3:47:30 on 6 Dec 99 GMT

Marlene:GRANT- I'm a little busy right now and will read Doug's material tomorrow morning. If we are hard wired for magical thinking then what's gone wrong with our wiring? - 4:05:11 on 6 Dec 99 GMT

Grant:MARLENE -- There is still variability in coloring and markings of creatures; random mutations. :-) - 4:10:19 on 6 Dec 99 GMT

Marlene:GRANT- Could be... I do have a problem with religion being benefical though. Is religion not one of the principles of war and over the years has been one of the main ones? Since religion causes so many deaths, would humans be considered lemming like? Anyhow, it's time to hit the hay, methinks. Goodnight atheists...and Ricky. - 5:07:27 on 6 Dec 99 GMT

Doug:Marlene:You have the hard wiring alright, you and I (other atheists too) just know what it is, imagination. - 6:55:05 on 6 Dec 99 GMT

Ricky:Joette: How or where do you arive with that idea? - 20:55:41 on 6 Dec 99 GMT

Marlene:RICKY- If you don't mind, I'll give you an answer to the question you asked Joette. In the old testament as well as descriptions in the new, god kills a whole bunch of people. Not only adults but innocent babies. I fail to see this god as a loving god. He was, as his believers witness. a vengeful god. - 22:30:32 on 6 Dec 99 GMT

Ricky:Marlene: I you built a robot and it did everything you commanded it to do, obeyed your instructions, and just pleased you by its preformance, you would be pleased. But if it did not follow its instructions, disobeyed your commands, just literaly screwed up, you would not be pleased. You would probable trash it or even "distroy" it and start over. God kind'a worked the same way. He gave man instructions to go by. Man disobeyed. He was then thrown out of the "garden". He was still given the chance to follow instructions and commands, and when he failed to do so, there was a price to pay. Pretty simple, if you ask me! When God's people chose to follow Him, OT tells how He watched over them, giving them the things they needed. Only the ones who refused to obey got "Zapped." - 23:47:59 on 6 Dec 99 GMT

Marlene:DOUG- Good topic! But either I'm really dense or I just don't get the feel of the subject at hand. Are you saying that we have free will? What I understand is this, that if we were to create a conscious being, emotions would have nothing to do with it's intelligence. If this is the topic then I think there would be two ways to look at that. Firstly, yes, I think we humans would be more intelligent if our emotions didn't play such a big part in our moment to moment existence. Secondly though, without our emotions, what would drive us? - 23:54:19 on 6 Dec 99 GMT

Marlene:RICKY- Say I built the robot myself, and since I'm all-knowing, to prevent disobedience, I don't give it free-will. And since I know everything and am perfect, how could I possibily built something imperfect anyway. Why would god choose as his chosen ones such a warring tribe as the israelites (sp?)? All they did was pillage and rape, kill all the boy children, men and women and keep the virgin girls for their own pleasure. I sure would chose these types over more peaceful tribes which were in that region. - 0:03:12 on 7 Dec 99 GMT

Marlene:RICKY- That last sentence should read "I sure wouldn't choose". Anyhow, I have to go out for a few hours. I check in about 10:00 PM CST. - 0:05:19 on 7 Dec 99 GMT

Joe: Ricky, the idea of omniscience is a paradox in and of itself (one of many in Christianity). If God had really wanted to avoid disobediance, he could have. Since he has not, we can only conclude that he wants us to disobey so he can punish us for being imperfect as he created us. Sounds like a fairly sadistic god to be pledging your life to ;) - 2:05:27 on 7 Dec 99 GMT

Joe: The idea of an infinitely loving god (as he is described in the bible) is also shot down by the bible's own description of hell - a place of ETERNAL and ULTIMATE torture. How could an infinitely loving god bring himself to torture his creations, obeying or otherwise, for all eternity? - 2:08:05 on 7 Dec 99 GMT

Doug:Marlene:Emotions are what makes us human. Being able to classify ourselves makes us have consciousness in part. I don't believe in the "zombies", there is no way to tell the difference. - 2:53:49 on 7 Dec 99 GMT

Marlene:Okay DOUG- I know I must seem REALLY dense. What the arguement is...zombies are lacking "souls" and the "soul" is what makes us human???? It must be the meds I'm taking, lol! - 5:02:57 on 7 Dec 99 GMT

Marlene:JOE- Yes, you bring up a good point. If a father were to father a child just to have him crucified at the prime of his life, we would lock the guy up and throw away the key. In fact, many xtians would be calling for the death penalty for the father. Yet the very same scenerio happens in the NT and they think it's just wonderful, in fact they worship a father that has done just that. - 5:07:50 on 7 Dec 99 GMT

Steven :MARLENE <<>> yes it is disgusting, and it is that very same point that I feel I must explain to the door to door xtians. - 16:22:30 on 7 Dec 99 GMT

Steven:ALL <<>> i guess the ridiculous spammer has never gotten a life. - 16:24:01 on 7 Dec 99 GMT

Marlene:STEVEN- How are you??? The spammer must be a real wacko, IMO. - 19:21:14 on 7 Dec 99 GMT

Carl:STEVEN: hello again! So, does the dark republican presidential candidate have a chance? In two pc-polls he's handily bested your TX son, G.W.Bush jr. Will the will and values of the people really win out, or will it be just the power of the dollar that wins? - 19:44:10 on 7 Dec 99 GMT

Marlene:CARL- What do you think of this "zombie" subject? - 20:10:55 on 7 Dec 99 GMT

Doug:Marlene: While the scientists aren't saying that I think it is a throwback to say the one can have consciousness and not have consciousness and you can't tell the difference. Yes, it boils down to the "soul" pseudoscience game. - 21:48:18 on 7 Dec 99 GMT

Marlene:DOUG- Now I'm understanding where your coming from. The soul or in Josh's language collective consciousness. - 4:33:11 on 8 Dec 99 GMT

Joe: Go McCain. His politics may suck, except for that soft money thing, but at least he seems to be a straight shooter (but then again most of them try to seem that way during the campaign. But then again again McCain has a history of being a straight shooter in the senate. But then again again again it's easy to be a straight shooter when you know that nobody is going to listen to you anyway) *sigh* decisions decisions. - 8:02:23 on 8 Dec 99 GMT

Carl:OPEN: read today that the dali lama told his religious-cohorts that they oughta'discontinue prayer and meditation stuff, if they want a better world. Seems he may be of the mind that such behavior just ain't gonna do the trick. This brings to mind the phrase 'an alcoholic moment of mental clarity' these moments, I hear tell, are when an alcoholic understands. Dependency- of anykind, it must be a terrible state of existence for anyone. - 23:29:52 on 8 Dec 99 GMT

Grant: "Canada has lost its collective mind" :Pat Robertson lets another stinker. - 3:39:10 on 9 Dec 99 GMT

Doug:Grant: The good news is Canada is free of him and so is Scotland; if only he would leave the USA.I heard Serbia was to his liking. - 4:39:41 on 9 Dec 99 GMT

Grant:DOUG -- Robertson would have made a good Moslim. You know, one of the type who wishes to quash all heretics, in other words, just about everybody. Did you catch the story last month about George W. Bush favoring the teaching of creationism in schools? “I have absolutely no problem with children learning different forms of how the world was formed,” he said. He calls creationism "morality-based science". - 5:11:22 on 9 Dec 99 GMT

Marlene:GRANT- What a coincidence! I'm also on a mailing list and this is a topic everyone has been discussing although it is really "off topic" from what the mailing list topic is supposed to be. Out of the subscribers, nearly 50% agree with Robertson on the condemnation of Canadian courts for fining the stationary company who refused to produce the letterheard for the gay rights organization. I happen to be in favor of the ruling but many Americans feel that a company has the right to refuse whatever customer they wish to refuse and on any grounds. Wherever it comes to gays there seems to be a problem with even people who usually don't discrimate with any one else. What do people here feel about this ruling? - 5:14:53 on 9 Dec 99 GMT

Marlene:DOUG- Unfortunately we aren't rid of him here as there are too many of his groupies living in Canada. One of his groupies, of course, just found himself with a fine to pay. But I doubt the guy will ever have to cough up the money out of his own pocket. The "church of living waters" only needs to empty half of one days income it receives from it's members "10% of their income" alms fee and the fine's paid. - 5:20:23 on 9 Dec 99 GMT

Grant:MARLENE -- It doesn't make sense to me to support business' freedom to practice discrimination. The government may not discriminate but the corner grocer may? With what justification? Do certain types of humans only deserve limited human rights? How is this different from the crackers refusing service to blacks at lunch counters and such in the U.S. South in the 1960's? Why are so many religious persons unwilling to be responsible members of a society larger than their little group? Are they too selfish or insecure to support the same rights and priveleges for others that they demand for themselves? It's not even internally consistant with xtian beliefs. - 5:48:29 on 9 Dec 99 GMT

Marlene:GRANT- I know! I'm sure if the printer had been asked to print up stationary for a "the right to life" organization, he would have gladly done so (maybe even at a discount). Some of the people on the mailing list (who btw are mostly atheist) feel this is just another Canadian communistic trait against capitalism. While I don't agree with ALL the social programs we have and our very socialist way of running the country, the area of fines for discrimination or hate literature are something I'm very much in favor of. I'm actually proud that our judge saw the discrimination and fined the company and didn't let his beliefs stand in the way of justice. Maybe this is the good thing about appointed rather than elected judges?! - 15:31:55 on 9 Dec 99 GMT

Marlene:Speaking of justice and judges. I'm also happy that the judge in Cal. who threw out Dr. Laura's slander suit was of sound mind and conscious. For those who haven't been following this...Dr. Laura accused a surfboard mag for having pronography in one of their mags. While talking with Dr. Laura on air (as if one could a word in edge-wise with that witch), he called her a liar. Well the world almost came to an end for the all-knowing Dr. Laura. She sued the guy for slander. The judge threw the case out saying the guy had freedom of speech. We could use Grant's words for this one "Are they too selfish or insecure to support the same rights and priveleges for others that they demand for themselves? ". As though Dr. Laura has never called anyone a liar! - 15:42:02 on 9 Dec 99 GMT

Carl:OPEN: So, emotions make humans human? Where then would some "truth" be determined? If it feels good it must be true, in such instances immediate gratification is an ok kinda deal? So, maybe a comment attributed to a xian type who said that they didn't trust their mind, they trusted only things that come form the "heart", what that comment was directed at or meant to convey was that emotions make one human? How does one come to "feel" about what is a number? - 19:40:43 on 9 Dec 99 GMT

Marlene:CARL- Emotions also make other animals who they are too. I have two dogs, each with their very own individual emotional makeup. I don't think emotions are limited to humans. I think the ability to control them is a human quality that most other animals lack. Although some very well trained domestic animals seem to beable to do so to an extent. - 23:30:10 on 9 Dec 99 GMT

Carl:MARLENE: Yes, I was pondering DOUG's post above. Emotion is an important piece to a learning theory o'which a stimulus is the other part. Both, it seems, were part of a larger or more detailed idea. - 23:49:25 on 9 Dec 99 GMT

Marlene:I KNOW- everyone must be out mythmas shopping! - 4:42:04 on 10 Dec 99 GMT

Joe: Ouch that's cruel! I may not believe in "god" or christ but Christmas is still the best time of the year. - 5:39:53 on 10 Dec 99 GMT

Marlene..who celebrates in her own way:JOE- I agree, I love mythmas! I just wish it was more about giving to each other than some xtian myth in which a child is born only in order to be a sacrificial lamb. I think Santa is cool though and maybe even the celebration of birth period. - 5:50:50 on 10 Dec 99 GMT

Doug:Marlene: If "mythmass" (I like that term) was all there was to xianity, I'd have very little problem with it.But of course "t'aint" so.Santa is a much better role model that christ: let's face it christ is a sicko who trashed a temple and paid the price(many other got worse for doing less) for his intolerance and stupidity.Now if he stole food to feed the poor (we already have Robin Hood) ,that's a role model. - 13:30:34 on 10 Dec 99 GMT

Carl:JO: Furthermore, in the USA its a secular event anyhows. It is certainly not religious, it is tho'a key economic event, in and for the economic well being o'the US o'A. Why do you think it is that USA politicians regularly refer to the blessings of the US o'A? That is my question to you. - 15:34:40 on 10 Dec 99 GMT

Amelia:As an existential humanist i am often asked why i feel god is in the way of world peace. My answer to this is look at the wars in our world today and throughout history, people have fought over religion for centuries and nothing constructive has come out of it yet. One day i hope to write a piece of work that will make people sit up and smell the coffee. War is destructive and not needed in a civilised world. When are theists going to evolve into rational intelligent beings - 20:13:16 on 10 Dec 99 GMT

Carl:AMELIA: U're input is appreciated. The key to problem is in the contrary of your post. Rational does not mean civilised nor does civilised mean intelligent. However, rational and intelligence as an output input relationship could work for a sounder evolution. Civilisation, well that was a word coined for those- back when, who wage wars. They were few- back when, as today where in the USA 1.??% have and possess the financial wealth, and for the masses there was-back when, just as today, there is religion. Ever wonder why the political types who mean to rule and control matters always or regularly mention religion and god? Perhaps, they are just being civilised? - 21:59:54 on 10 Dec 99 GMT

Marlene:AMELIA- WELCOME! I agree, humanity should have grown up enough by now to quit bickering over resources and pool them. Also to quit bickering over myths because I truly think, deep in eveyone's brain, they KNOW there is nothing supernatural. The death penalty is another barbaric(sp, no time!) tradition. - 22:32:12 on 10 Dec 99 GMT

Marlene:DOUG and GRANT- I just got the newest issue of _Skeptic_ which I think was available to you at least two weeks ago. Did you read the book review on _Plucked in Space_? Imagine the author placing the Dr. Danton Falopian in Manitoba! I'm insulted! Why not in PEI or Ontario? Ricky will be thrilled to hear that JC will be making a come back in September of next year. - 1:46:18 on 11 Dec 99 GMT

Doug:Marlene:Well we have the fundies so it's only fair that you accept some kooks too.The book sounds like a good laugh. - 3:17:00 on 11 Dec 99 GMT

Marlene:DOUG- It does, doesn't it! Actually though we do have our fair share of kooks too so maybe we'll have to dispatch Mr.Falopian to say..Wynyard, Sask. It's kind of like the bowels of Canada. It's in east-central Sask., in the absolute middle of nowhere, not a tree in site, can't drink the water...almost like a colder Roswell. Jaywilson has passed by it on his way through Canada this summer. - 5:08:16 on 11 Dec 99 GMT

what is Christmas all about? It's the birthday of a King. Been celebrated for about two thousand years now! It was proph. his coming the first time and He said He would come again! Sure would hate to be in Doug's shoes! - 6:11:16 on 11 Dec 99 GMT

Doug:Ticks: You sure would, there's deer ticks all over them, so I sprayed them with mitacide.Darn things are suppose to go away after the first killing frost.They're indestructable, those deer ticks.Are you threatening me with gutless god/jesus the greatest bully. - 6:48:33 on 11 Dec 99 GMT

Marlene:Again, another message from someone with no name! If jc is so loving why would someone who didn't believe in him have to be afraid? Sounds like he's the godfather of a xtian crime organization. - 15:57:22 on 11 Dec 99 GMT

Doug:Marlene: But,,,,, nobody expects the Spanish inquisition "our chief weapons are fear,suprise, and ruthless effiency, and a almost fantical devotion to the Pope. That about sums up their loving ways. - 17:43:22 on 11 Dec 99 GMT

Doug:No name xian: so did General Douglas MacArthur, he did have a better track record for telling the truth than xian mythology."I shall return" - 18:39:13 on 11 Dec 99 GMT

Marlene :So now I think I know why no one is here. The rapture has happened and you all were forgiven. - 6:14:10 on 13 Dec 99 GMT

Grant:Except for me. I hadn't done anything wrong. - 13:42:29 on 13 Dec 99 GMT

Marlene:GRANT- I guess that is my problem too. No sins to forgive so jesus doesn't want me and no sins committed so stan doesn't want me. I guess we're just earthbound with all the other animals. How peaceful! - 20:42:19 on 13 Dec 99 GMT

Carl:MARLENE; so do you mean in other words, that you will just live and let live? - 21:43:42 on 13 Dec 99 GMT

Marlene:CARL! You've been rejected too! At least we know there are three of us who are true atheists, lol! As far as live, I've been doing that so far and unlike xtians, I don't feel I should be trying to control others so it is, let live. - 21:59:34 on 13 Dec 99 GMT

Carl:MARLENE; of that book, if more people would seek truths and seek to understand, or really and truly know that humans do not live by bread alone then after reading things written by any and all human hands, they'd know no book character such as the biblical god would could ever exist. If you run into it grab it, borrowing or buying it. Over the past week-end I saw on tv a religious program that said science lies and fabricates its "facts". Its argument was a young-earth one. It was incredible to listen to such things that we kno of, being said before and to the public. To further fuel that issue I was given a book on Osama Bin Ladin, Clinton's fren. I started to read it and found myself shaking my head for the things it said against islamism for that same stuff seemed so like the xian fundamentalist here as they cry-out for things as prayer-in-school. The only good part of this matter, in the community here the religious interests are nowhere near as evident as the media might lead or allow one to think. Its still tho', a terrible thing to have to see and tolerate. - 22:58:46 on 13 Dec 99 GMT

Marlene:CARL- For those who believe the bible as the literal truth, the world really is coming to an end for them. Here as report on it's final end. - 23:36:42 on 13 Dec 99 GMT

Marlene:Oopps! Try this again - 23:37:35 on 13 Dec 99 GMT

Carl:MARLENE: What do the religious minded want? They should kno with a bit o'recollection that they had to be told what was to be "their" religion! Those things in that article have been known for a long time, but nevertheless, the religious minded disregard those early sources in the same way that they'll disregard even the current findings. Are they truly idiots? Are they really that bent that they need to rule and control others? Do they really and truly fear death that much? Thanks - 23:51:43 on 13 Dec 99 GMT

Doug:I had a vision; just kidding.On New Years Eve the ball will fall in Times Square and and ......the year 2000 CE will start the last year of the old millenium.So stock up and sell to those loony xians at top dollars before it comes. - 3:08:50 on 14 Dec 99 GMT

Marlene:DOUG- I'm curious to see if one of the nutty believer outfits will pull off something stupid on Dec.31. I really haven't heard too many fanatical groups predicting doom and destruction other than the ones who were just arrested who were originally from Denver. - 4:34:21 on 14 Dec 99 GMT

Doug:Marlene; I recall some others who were arrested in the states last summer who were planning to disrupt communications (blowing up power lines and all) so as to hasten jesus or some such lunacy.Most are going mad with stocking up and spending all their money; making a disaster happen (a personal one).I just reported a local nazi skinhead on the net, he claimed to be planning to blow up gas tanks around the Boston area.Then he was going to kill blacks in the diversion.That info was relayed to the Mass. State Police. because you never know, and I also hate nazis. - 5:02:04 on 14 Dec 99 GMT

Doug:Marlene: I forgot to add that this is(?) going to happen New Years Eve. - 5:03:30 on 14 Dec 99 GMT

IAMtheWAY:!!!! I wish you a :) Christmas! I wish you a :) Christmas! I wish you a :) :) Christmas! And a Merry Millennium Toooooooo!!! ...............It's that time of year again, my dear little atheists, for me to drop by and wish you all the best. I see some of the people on the page have left.....NC, Richard, Bill, Lucifer and the many other folks who seemed to reject our sweet Jesus. But ..just maybe...maybe... they have found the Lord and are now doing his Works by offering Amway to their friends and loved ones. This year Amway is featuring a special Millennium Makeover for those who reach out most to friends and family. You can be sure that while I harvest souls for Jesus I will be presenting them with all the wonderful things Amway has to offer. Guess who will be getting that makeover. Praise the Lord for Amway!!!! While some of the older posters here have gone on to more blessed things, I see we still have Grant, Carl and Marlene. When I look back a bit in the archives I see that Joette, Steve and Peter stop in and chat. I see a new member has ventured into this wasteland, Doug. He seems like a sweet young man. What ever happened to dear Ron? I hope you people didn't tease him about those aliens he so has faith in. What a waste. Think of the faith that poor boy has to offer Jesus. Well I have gone on, haven't I! Until next year ! - 5:12:23 on 14 Dec 99 GMT

Marlene:DOUG- Yikes! In Canada nazis promote hate literature so they can be arrested. Of the groups I dislike the most the skin-heads or nazis and the black panthers have to rate at the very top. Maybe in the next 400,000 years everyone will be basically the same skin color and the racist thing will to absolute bad history. I wouldn't blink an eye at reporting scummy people like them. Hopefully you've headed them off at the pass. I haven't heard of any nutty things happening with religious group as of yet. You'd think infidels org. would have a page dedicated to this. - 5:23:20 on 14 Dec 99 GMT

Doug:Marlene: I know all the police forces are going crazy investigating all these kook groups.Because if something does happen there will be hell to pay if nobody had done a investigation.I don't think skin colour will blend into one .Look at Indians from India they're Caucasians but very dark skined.Africans are white in the northern reaches of the continent; it is suppressed because untill very recently blacks were confined only to Africa.Orientals are dark and light skinned.Geographic location and time would lead to light skinned Africans in a northern climate. Also remember that only 6% of our genes are different because of race.In other words the racists are full of the brown stuff. - 21:28:12 on 14 Dec 99 GMT

Marlene:DOUG- But don't you think in time with people marrying other races and people travelling and even making their homes in places other than their country of origin that the races will blend. IMO, I think darker skin a much nicer colour anyway. I don't think I would mind my great-great-great (and so on) grandchildren's skin being darker than mine. I already have one grandchild who's ancestory is Aboriginal. That's a beginning. - 1:26:42 on 15 Dec 99 GMT

Doug:Marlene:I don't mind, but what I was saying is people who live nearer to the poles will as each generation goes evolve lighter coloured skin pigments regardless of race. - 2:31:52 on 15 Dec 99 GMT

Marlene:DOUG- Interestingly though, Inuit are darker skinned than say, the more southern Aboriginals. I've heard a few theories on why but I don't remember them right now. - 3:52:20 on 15 Dec 99 GMT

Doug:Marlene: It could be that they haven't been in the arctic for many generations."Temperature and altitude. The human response to the stress of a hot environment is sweat. Hair, especially coarse, tightly curled head hair, may provide some protection from direct sunlight. Armpit hair may retain the sweat where its evaporation will cool the body. Racial groups do not seem to vary in the number of sweat glands, but peoples of hot, dry climates, where sweating is especially important, tend to be tall and slim, a body build that exposes a maximum amount of skin to potential cooling by sweating. People of warmer regions also tend to have darker skin, a possible protection from damage from direct sun. Indeed, over many millennia, individuals with favorable adaptations to heat and perpendicular solar rays may have had a selective advantage for survival in tropical regions such as sub-Saharan Africa and South Asia. In Arctic regions, stocky body build and generally large body size are more common, and these traits apparently help in conserving body heat. Light-colored skin may be less susceptible than dark skin to frostbite. Narrow noses serve better than broad noses to warm frigid air before it enters the lungs. All these advantageous traits are more common in northern peoples such as the Inuit (Eskimo), Lapps, and Siberians. Nevertheless, basic physiological responses to cold (shivering, for instance) occur in the same way in all human groups, and the most significant human adaptations to climate-clothes, houses, and the use of fire-are cultural, not biological." - 11:01:35 on 15 Dec 99 GMT

MoreOfTheSamePleaseDOUG..:Thanks. Very interesting. - 11:55:49 on 15 Dec 99 GMT

DOuG- Sorry about the small "u" but my cat stepped on the keyboard today and now it won't capitalize the "u". I don't know if the poster above was being sincere or sacastic. If it's the ususal idiot that posts that this is a boring place then likely the latter. I did find your post interesting. Many of those theories I've heard before but I hadn't heard the one about the curly hair. It makes sense! Anyway, I'm wiped today because I was fairly busy and I'll be fairly busy tomorrow too but what I would like to do wh - 5:01:35 on 15 Dec 99 GMT

Grant:I don’t guess anyone else here follows the Catholics very closely, but I kind of like them. I don’t mean the rank and file Catholics. I’m talking about the theologian types. They are of that minority of religious believers who are willing to openly state their beliefs. Anyway, once upon a time, 1531 to be precise, in "Mexican Catholicism" land, a dark skinned aboriginal Virgin Mary appeared to a dark skinned aboriginal named Juan Diego over a four day period and left her image on the farm worker’s cloak. This would be the famous "Virgin of Guadaloupe". Quick to recognize a good thing, some folks in Vatican land about 468 years later decided to canonize Diego as a saint. This would mark the first saint for the Americas. The old world is thick with them. Everyone is happy: prayers pray, worshippers worship, and pilgims pilgrimage. But every good tale needs some conflict. A retired 83-year-old abbot of the basilica by the name of Guillermo Schuemburg and two other prelates sent a secret letter to the pope, which somehow became unsecret, suggesting that the saint thing be delayed until sufficient evidence that this Jaun Diego fellow actually existed could be found. Major uproar. The Vatican’s ambassador to Mexico, one Justo Mullor, joins the choir of angy voices who wish to do something unlike canonizing to Schuemburg. This is the part that interested me. Nobody tries to claim that Diego actually existed. They say things like "Whatever Schuemburg says, we are not going to stop believing. And not just Mexicans, but the whole Spanish-speaking world. There are millions of people who owe all we have to the Virgin of Guadalupe. Just one person cannot change this." and "Desecrating her is desecrating Mexico’s most sacred icon." You see, they are not concerned about truth or reality. It is not relevant to them. This is the mark of the religious believer. - 12:58:51 on 16 Dec 99 GMT

test - 14:08:34 on 16 Dec 99 GMT

test - 3:09:18 on 17 Dec 99 GMT

Marlene:Is this thing working now??? - 4:19:43 on 17 Dec 99 GMT

Marlene:Ah HA! So it is. DOuG- Btw that post to you above was from me. Not only was my keyboard not working but neither was the net. GRANT- People seem to be happy in fairyland. I too find it fun to be there. Every time I read a fiction, I'm there but I don't think it would be healthy for me to actually live there. I suppose it's an escape from the realities of life on this planet but is it healthy to continue to stay in that hiding place? We wouldn't advise alcoholics or any one else who uses a drug to escape to continue in that paradise. No, religion may not make one bodily sick but emotionally they are dependent. - 4:27:21 on 17 Dec 99 GMT

Grant: conspiracy theory:Marlene -- I checked in only to find your partial post, and this page inoperative. Checking my e-mail. I discovered I had no access to it. Odd. I wondered if someone was expressing disfavor by digital means. Turns out your post was interrupted mid-transmission, leaving the cgi-script unable to complete a subroutine. Just had to edit in a few closing tags and stuff. Called customer support about the e-mail. Microsoft had sent someone else on the same server my account is on 200,000 copies of an e-mail, which in turn generated thousands of error messages and crashed the system. I don't remember saying anything bad about Microsoft, and they're not renowned for subtlety, so it must all be coincidence, unless Bill Gates thinks he's God? - 14:20:33 on 17 Dec 99 GMT

Marlene:GRANT- I understand there is supposed be a whole bunch of wierd stuff in the last while on the net, including email that has some nasty stuff in it. I'm also on a mailing list so anything I don't recognize, I trash. - 22:23:15 on 17 Dec 99 GMT

Carl: Why do you think that being religious "Christian" makes one want to "rule over" - 22:25:33 on 17 Dec 99 GMT

Carl: Why do you think that being religious "Christian" makes one want to "rule over" others. I don't fear death and don't have any desire to rule over anyone. Seems to me, you're the idiot. - 22:28:47 on 17 Dec 99 GMT

Doug:Marlene: Oh was that you. I thought it was our mystery poster. Sorry about your keyboard it souds like the pits. Our mystery xian poster is ashamed to give its name.Very typical of the xians; lack of manners and integrity. - 3:34:07 on 18 Dec 99 GMT

Marlene:DOUG- As you can see I figured out the keyboard repair, lol! I don't think our mystery xtian is Ricky. So far he's communicated fairly and with honesty. It has to be one of those typical types. He did bring up a good point. The one that xtians would like to "rule over" the rest of the non-christian population. I find that many of them come on to me telling me all about jesus. With their pitch being presented, they expect a sudden conversion. If one doesn't accept jesus then they seem to think that forcing religion on someone will someday cause the conversion. So they proceed to make sure they get jesus into the schools, workplace and even to public washrooms. If a muslim approached a christian and told them their version of the god-myth, I doubt they would convert to islam at a drop of a hat. Nor would the christian like muslim dogma put into schools, workplaces and washrooms. - 4:10:17 on 18 Dec 99 GMT

ZIONIST:Shalom in the name of the one true God of Israel! I come to wish you all happy holidays! I also would like to say that Israel should not concede any land to the Arabs, now or ever. Long live Israel! - 7:08:17 on 18 Dec 99 GMT

Marlene:ZIONIST- I say, you've displaced enough people in the Middle East. I say Israel is big enough. I also say, Israel is typical of your war god, killing Arab children while they attend school is your typical cowardly ploy. - 14:47:02 on 18 Dec 99 GMT

Grant:A real ZIONIST? I don't suppose you'll stick around and attempt to justify your views? - 14:55:27 on 18 Dec 99 GMT

Doug:All: You know how those xians are always trying to push jeezus on the general population.Well I just have thought of the ultimate Proselytizing machine. It would reach everyone or nearly everyone with the word of the lord Jeezus h. christ one god of three.So pull down your pants or lift up your skirts ladies and gentlemen.Yes, it's the amazing jeezus johnny every time you sit, stand near, and flush, jeezus will sound off at you sinners with a quote from the good book.LOL! - 19:23:24 on 18 Dec 99 GMT

Zionist:GRANT: Sure. One question: would you give land to an enemy who once used that same land as a militaristic strategic point from which to bombard you and your citizens? If not, why expect Israel to do the same? - 23:32:43 on 18 Dec 99 GMT

Marlene:ZIONIST- I'm sure you meant to say "Would you give land back to an enemy who once used that same land as a militaristic strategic point from which to protect themselves and their land from you and others like you?" - 0:06:54 on 19 Dec 99 GMT

Marlene:DOUG- If it wouldn't plug the toilets, all that literature would make great asswipe! - 0:09:45 on 19 Dec 99 GMT

ZIONIST -- I'm happy you returned. That's a pretty shameless oversimplification, isn't it? If one is to consider past sins, shouldn't one also consider ones own? The justification I'm interested in is the justification for Israel's double-standards regarding its own rights and the rights of its Arab neighbors. Such justifications are religious in nature, aren't they, rather than being based on Arab behavior? - 0:20:29 on 19 Dec 99 GMT

Grant:Oops that was me. - 0:21:04 on 19 Dec 99 GMT

Marlene:GRANT- Israel does have double standards even for their own people. For instance there is a whole lot of racism in the jewish community of Israel. Jews from Tunasia or any other north African area are not given the opportunities or luxuries jews receive who hail from Europe. - 14:32:36 on 19 Dec 99 GMT

Grant:MARLENE-- ZIONIST-- I'm not anti-Israel or pro-Arab. Whatever benefits religious beliefs offer the believer, they don't offer society the benefits of any desire for tolerance or equity between groups. Discounting claims of promises or edicts from deities, it's difficult to rationally justify favoring rights for one group at the cost of another. An atheist discussion page is probably not a good choice of venue for furthering religious, or even nationalist idiologies, but I'd love to see the religious justifications spelled out and defended. - 21:51:43 on 19 Dec 99 GMT

Marlene:GRANT- If Zionist can justify his beliefs then I would love to hear it. - 22:33:01 on 19 Dec 99 GMT

Marlene:My computer is six years old so come 2000, I'm not sure if it's going to work or not. If I disappear from here for a couple of months, it will be because it doesn't. You can be sure that I'll be whinning enough that my partner will help me get a new one, lol! So..like it or not...I will "come again". - 14:56:54 on 20 Dec 99 GMT

Carl:ANY: Just carousing this a.m., didja'kno'that on the geocities server[?] this chat site now titled Man-made.net, is still under the Man-is-Manmade title? There, one finds an entirely different group of chatters? There, Joette's last post was last thursday. I didn't enage an old post research, but I just thot you here might find that sort of interesting. - 15:52:04 on 20 Dec 99 GMT

Carl:NoNAME: You may be right on the matter of my idiotness. The pathway of the readings I've done have given me many things to ponder, so a charge that the xian-religion means but to control would be based on all that that I've read. In that regard then I would appear idiotic, for what I am aware of and familiar with allows for me to have my own mental focus point. Lets say you are a religious-xian, in that scenario your mental focus point for the all is your godthing notion. The difference of such views, your mental focus point allows for you to say you do things for a godthing and that it does things for you. Thats nice. But, would you destroy life if you "heard" the godthing say you had to? A yes- in that context, then you escape being responsible for destroying a lifeform. In the mental focus which I understand I am responsible for everything no matter a godthing or no godthing. In short, there are no addendums which allow me to do anything during my existence which would call for or require of anyone or anything to forgive me for doing. What do I do good for, I do good for life as it is. - 17:07:47 on 20 Dec 99 GMT

Carl:NoNAME: Xian rulers, the response; if the worded statements of the xian-church patriarchs are given consideration then, that xians mean to "rule-all" is true. In a general view of religion the leader rulers in all ages have always duped those who are the have-nots into accepting that they- the leader/rulers, were consequently somehow connected to the godthingys. Recent example was G.Bush jr's so said favorite philosopher, jc. [I suspect he just didn't know the views of any real philosopher]. That is an example of a political aspirant shamelessly duping those he means to rule and control. I can go on with examples but they are so many and can be found anywhere, you really ought to take care of yourself. But, if you are a religious-xian, do you see that you are not responsible for that kind of on-going endeavor? - 18:27:57 on 20 Dec 99 GMT

Doug:ZIONIST: How about a little separation of church and state.That's the solution for the problems in the Middle East (let alone the rest of the world).Until all you people learn to live together side by side you're doomed to hate and kill each other for the love of you're gods.By USA standards you'd all be up on hate crimes.In fact if I were President of the USA, I'd tie in foreign loans and other aid into secular laws concerning government involvement in the religious realms.I really don't care what my neighbors are just as long as they don't try and push their wares on me. The Middle East sounds like most of the people should be put in insane asylums and lobotomized. - 20:17:18 on 20 Dec 99 GMT

Carl:DOUG: Do you actually mean to open the door to prospects of maybe taking back, or at least stopping any and all shipments of military goods to places like Israel? Where they put people in fenced caged places? Where they won't allow them freedom of movement, among other denied freedoms? Whew! You'd be a tough prez! - 21:49:22 on 20 Dec 99 GMT

Doug:Carl: The arabs would be given equal time.Give them a couple of years beating their heads in with stones and let them vote for incorporation into the USA.Yes, that's right modernize their minds and lack of social morals.Half of Israel is secular and I'd bet half of the arabs are too. Look at Kuwait, they were hoping for a democracy not the return of the Muslums kings.Same thing in Iran before the raghead revolution; they wanted human rights not the islamic rights of no rights.Growth in territory, the new Imperialism.I'm just sick of not being able to throw half( I hope it's fractional) these religious hatemongering kooks in the klink.I'd even be willing to give Canada it's share. - 22:57:00 on 20 Dec 99 GMT

Marlene:DOUG- I think your right when you state that many Israelis(sp) are secular but wrong when you suggest that Arabs are. I have friends from the Middle East, one is from Syria and the other Jordan. The newest thing over there is for the young people to embrace islam. They see power in education and religion that's why many of them are here in Canada and the US attending our universities. They don't learn the arts either, most of them are into electrical engineering and such. Yes they want the kings out and they want democracy (if that's what one would call it) like Iraq. - 5:06:01 on 21 Dec 99 GMT

Ricky:Carl: You're reading the wrong books concerning the ways in which one becomes a Christian. Read the Bible! Christians do not seek controll. God's in controll, always has been, always will be. Marlene: If I disappear in 2000, well, "some seem to think it might be a good time for th return" I won't be back! - 20:48:34 on 21 Dec 99 GMT

Carl:RICKY: If the godthing were truly the thing as your imagination has it being, it surely would not be in a book- the bible, composed by herders and cannibals who also thought the world to be flat and at the center of the all. try again - 21:26:46 on 21 Dec 99 GMT

Marlene:HI RICKY!- Oh yeah, you'll be ascending. I'll hang around, I wouldn't want to miss out on all the action, lol! What is the expected date, May 05, 2000? - 21:59:02 on 21 Dec 99 GMT

Marlene:CARL and RICKY- Carl has a very good point, if god truly did compile the bible then why is it so outdated and contradictory? Wouldn't he have foreseen this technological age? Another question is..why are some books in one version of the bible while in another version they are thrown out, why would xtians throw out the word of god? - 22:03:53 on 21 Dec 99 GMT

Marlene:ALL- Has anyone read the piece in _Skeptic_ on the _Celestine Prophesy_? It reminded me of Josh. Remember when Josh did this big thing with accusing all we unenlightened atheists of copying and pasteing? Well reading that little piece, I would bet my last dollar that Josh did a little of that himself from the _Celestine Prophesy_. I had the book a few years ago but when I discovered the content, I gave it away so I didn't realize the copying Josh did until I read the piece in _Skeptic_. - 22:09:32 on 21 Dec 99 GMT

Doug:Marlene:You really think that Josh c+p'd text from the Celestine Prophesy.I wouldn't doubt it, he didn't sound as though he really understood just what he was talking about. *******On the bible; it was "cannonized"(put together and voted on 568 to 563 in and around 347 CE )by the Catholic church and all other versions were surpressed violently by the church.The vast majority of the people who voted had travelling brothels and all other sorts of vices. Not what one would call heavenly inspired.They were and are to this day master politicians; the church. - 13:54:56 on 22 Dec 99 GMT

Carl:OPEN: A few years back, I mentioned the Piso issue at that time its flag was, The Origin of Christianity. I do not at this time recall who here it was that dismissed the site's point of issue, but the site is still there. It appears to have a wide variety o'participants. They there say it was the Piso group that managed to implement a xian entity. That sure is a fanstastic suggestion. Above DOUG tells of the violence that followed the approval of the bible as a needed action to insure that it existed only as "they" planned. Articles I've read compel a concurrence with DOUG's brief reference. At this time, due to recent USA political events[another topic], I can see how the Piso action seems quite possible. So what is my point, y'ask? While the Piso thing, as the example here, seems fantastic it is so only because o'lets call it a'Skinner-box'supposed thinking process. This was the fella who conducted experiments with boxed mice. Also for a boxed thinking process is, Occam's razor. In this book I'm readin'it says William of Occam, the great franciscan scholastic, etc., said, "Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter neccessitatem, i.e., Entities ought not to be multiplied except from necessity." My point, that kind of illlogic can serve quite well the religious minded who hold such concerns as there being but one "true-version" of say, divine-scripture. Is such thinking good for science whereof to me, "Life is connected not by supernatural design but by kinship." Occams razor is a religious idea. - 16:44:06 on 22 Dec 99 GMT

Grant:Have to disagree, CARL. "Occum's razor" is, in general usage, a suggestion to eliminate complexity needless for explaining a phenomena, or stated another way, when confronted by conflicting theories for an unexplained phenomena one should prefer the simpler explanation. One seldom see it used by the religious, for obvious reasons. :-) - 19:13:38 on 22 Dec 99 GMT

Marlene:CARL- If I rememeber correctly, the Piso family are supposed to be the creators of christianity. They did so to create a Roman based religion opposed to the jewish religion. While this makes sense as most of the nt is written by a Roman named Paul, I'm not sure there is much evidence to support it. Although, if this is truly the case, they've done a fantastic job with it. I have to agree with Grant on Occum's razor. Normally it is used to support atheism rather than theism. - 21:20:41 on 22 Dec 99 GMT

Carl:G&M: Yes I know for today that is the generally acceptanced meaning, but when I backtrack, as I do, I seem to regularly find or can see, a different meaning. Another such example is the word, agnosticism. That word was coined for the purposes o'science not as word about any ol'godthing. - 21:49:28 on 22 Dec 99 GMT

Carl:MARLENE: Thats them. The wide view of the suggestion that such an endeavor by any as the Piso group way back when is a possibility requires the question is/was it possible? If the matter is focused on what could have been controlled I can see at least one aspect o'humanity that's controlable. It is information. As we know before the first printing press was made information and knowledge as they were, were both priviledged commodities. The leaders and rulers got access to all such and after them, those who got to know were informed on a need to know basis. All others if involved had worth only as they did what they were told to do. In the suggestion of the Piso thing, I can see how it is this latter group that was the primary target-group. For those sort of helping the Piso's they knew on the need to know basis a rhetorical presentation to them would've sufficed, just as in todays world reports we read "spin-words" for that same 'rhetorical understanding.' - 23:16:33 on 22 Dec 99 GMT

Marlene:DOUG- There is one book or group of books that I'm trying to find but I can't remember the name of them, the so-called lost books of the bible. Have you heard of them? - 2:36:49 on 23 Dec 99 GMT

Grant: Offbeat xmas humor:: - 4:08:19 on 23 Dec 99 GMT

Doug:Marlene: Here's one site with alot of info."The index below contains links to numerous extra-canonical documents, including the much heralded Gospel of Thomas." **************This is what was surpressed and destroyed by the early Catholic Church. - 4:18:23 on 23 Dec 99 GMT

Marlene:DOUG- Thanks! For that webpage! I will be reading it today for sure. I have tons of cooking to do today as tomorrow we're having our mythmas feast at my daughter's. In between making things, I'll have lots of time to read it. - 15:22:44 on 23 Dec 99 GMT

Marlene:GRANT- LOL! I suppose the guy was a true victim of magical thinking. - 15:27:22 on 23 Dec 99 GMT

Grant:Look at it this way, Marlene. His belief in Santa did save him from jumping off the building, although he had to.. um, never mind. - 18:25:08 on 23 Dec 99 GMT

Marlene:GRANT- True!?! - 21:09:59 on 23 Dec 99 GMT

you-no:Marlene: You'll just never get it! All of the writters in the Bible were inspired by god to write. The "sheep-herdsmen" as Carl calls them didn't write as the simple and common everyday man would have written, but as inspired writters from God. True, they all used their personal "touch" as to the style of their writtens, but still wrote the message intended by God Himself. Hard to understand and comprehend. But then a Creator that could put all this world together as we know it is far beyound our comprehension. Have you found the Book I sugested for you to read? It explaines lots of things that Ath. Don't get! - 6:39:31 on 24 Dec 99 GMT

Marlene:RICKY- No I haven't found that book because either you gave me the wrong title or the wrong author. If all these books were inspired by god, why aren't they all in the bible? Many are not. If you read the site that Doug left, you'd discover that ressurection(sp?) takes 7 days and not 3. That's just one point on where the bible is errant. - 14:39:51 on 24 Dec 99 GMT

Marlene:ALL- I hope you have a very happy mythmas eve and mythmas. I off shortly to start my festivites! - 14:41:30 on 24 Dec 99 GMT

Tony:Hi Guys, my name is Tony. I really feel sorry for people that make fun of or sport of Christianity or religion. Whether you choose to believe in GOD or not, one thing is for sure either you believe now and see HIM in peace, or refuse like most that have gone on and found out that there really is a GOD. I think deep down inside the most devout athiest believes in some higher power even though they won't admit it. Just look around, things around us declare and speak that there is a GOD. - 4:16:47 on 25 Dec 99 GMT

Marlene:TONY the teacher of telling lies for god? - 4:38:20 on 25 Dec 99 GMT

KIYA:I was just wondering where athiests think eveything and everyone came from. I know about the evolution theory, but who made the monkey? And I know about the big bang theory, but it that's true who started it. Who made the first atom that started it or where did it come from. How ever we got here who or what started it all? That's why I believe in God because I look at all of the things in the world like trees and water and even my own child say to myself "Something or someone more powerful than anything I can imagine has got to have someting to do with these amazing creations." Furthermore I would hate to think that Earth is all there is. Imaginge everything we do everyday, going to school all these years, working 8 hours a day, ect. is all there is and then we die. What happens next? If that's true, then what's the point of it all. That is very sad if you all belive that this all there is. If you do then there what is the point of you even existing? - 8:48:34 on 25 Dec 99 GMT

KIYA:HAPPY BIRTHDAY JESUS! AND THANK YOU FOR TAKING ALL OF MY SINS ON AS YOUR OWN AND TAKING MY PLACE IN HELL. THANKS TO YOU LORD JESUS, I DON'T HAVE TO GO TO HELL BECAUSE I HAVE ACCEPTED YOU AS MY SAVIOR. I PRAY LORD THAT ANYONE WHO HAS NOT ACCEPTED YOUR GIFT OF REDEMPTION DOES SO BEFORE THEY LEAVE THIS WORLD. ONLY A LOVING PARENT WOULD TAKE ON HIS CHILDREN'S PAIN SO THAT THEY MAY HAVE ETERNAL JOY. THANK YOU JESUS! - 8:59:22 on 25 Dec 99 GMT

KIYA:HAPPY BIRTHDAY JESUS! AND THANK YOU FOR TAKING ALL OF MY SINS ON AS YOUR OWN AND TAKING MY PLACE IN HELL. THANKS TO YOU LORD JESUS, I DON'T HAVE TO GO TO HELL BECAUSE I HAVE ACCEPTED YOU AS MY SAVIOR. I PRAY LORD THAT ANYONE WHO HAS NOT ACCEPTED YOUR GIFT OF REDEMPTION DOES SO BEFORE THEY LEAVE THIS WORLD. ONLY A LOVING PARENT WOULD TAKE ON HIS CHILDREN'S PAIN SO THAT THEY MAY HAVE ETERNAL JOY. THANK YOU JESUS! - 8:59:49 on 25 Dec 99 GMT

KIYA:HAPPY BIRTHDAY JESUS! AND THANK YOU FOR TAKING ALL OF MY SINS ON AS YOUR OWN AND TAKING MY PLACE IN HELL. THANKS TO YOU LORD JESUS, I DON'T HAVE TO GO TO HELL BECAUSE I HAVE ACCEPTED YOU AS MY SAVIOR. I PRAY LORD THAT ANYONE WHO HAS NOT ACCEPTED YOUR GIFT OF REDEMPTION DOES SO BEFORE THEY LEAVE THIS WORLD. ONLY A LOVING PARENT WOULD TAKE ON HIS CHILDREN'S PAIN SO THAT THEY MAY HAVE ETERNAL JOY. THANK YOU JESUS! - 9:00:14 on 25 Dec 99 GMT

KIYA:HAPPY BIRTHDAY JESUS! AND THANK YOU FOR TAKING ALL OF MY SINS ON AS YOUR OWN AND TAKING MY PLACE IN HELL. THANKS TO YOU LORD JESUS, I DON'T HAVE TO GO TO HELL BECAUSE I HAVE ACCEPTED YOU AS MY SAVIOR. I PRAY LORD THAT ANYONE WHO HAS NOT ACCEPTED YOUR GIFT OF REDEMPTION DOES SO BEFORE THEY LEAVE THIS WORLD. ONLY A LOVING PARENT WOULD TAKE ON HIS CHILDREN'S PAIN SO THAT THEY MAY HAVE ETERNAL JOY. THANK YOU JESUS! - 9:00:34 on 25 Dec 99 GMT

KIYA:HAPPY BIRTHDAY JESUS! AND THANK YOU FOR TAKING ALL OF MY SINS ON AS YOUR OWN AND TAKING MY PLACE IN HELL. THANKS TO YOU LORD JESUS, I DON'T HAVE TO GO TO HELL BECAUSE I HAVE ACCEPTED YOU AS MY SAVIOR. I PRAY LORD THAT ANYONE WHO HAS NOT ACCEPTED YOUR GIFT OF REDEMPTION DOES SO BEFORE THEY LEAVE THIS WORLD. ONLY A LOVING PARENT WOULD TAKE ON HIS CHILDREN'S PAIN SO THAT THEY MAY HAVE ETERNAL JOY. THANK YOU JESUS! - 9:01:20 on 25 Dec 99 GMT

Kiya:I was reading some of the old postings and I think so of you non believers are a bit confused on who Jesus was and why he came. Some one said that god created his son just to have him killed in the prime of his life and that was "disgusting". Well that is not the way it is and there is a story that may explain it better to some of you who don't understand the bible. STORY: There was a family,a man a wife and two children. The wife was a christian and was raising the children as christians. The father, on the other hand, could not understand the whole "God" "Jesus" thing. "Why", he asked, "Would God send his son to earth just to die? Anyhow, there is no way a virgin could have a baby. It's just not rational." He refused to go to church with the family and every Sunday morning he stayed home. Well one very icy morning the husband looked out the window and noticed some small birds outside in the snow. "Those birds will die if they don't get some food and shelter," he thought. The husband went outside to the birds to bring them bread and to put them in his warm barn, but every time he came near they ran a little farther. "Please," he pleaded, "if you don't listen to me you will die." But of coure the birds could not understand him and they still ran. "If only I could walk among them and speak to them in their language then I could save their lives." At that thought, he fell to his knees and cried, "Father, now I understand." (I suppose if the man could become a bird and tell them that they need shelter, some of them might believe him and get shelter. I'm certain that there will be still some birds who won't listen and still want to have their own way. "Who is he to tell us that we can't play in the snow? I can do what I wan't to do." Then years after the bird has long gone there will be some birds who say " There was one a bird who said said that if we don't get shelter when it snows that we will die, so I'm going to get shelter." And still other birds will say, "yeah right I don't believe that story is true, I don't believe that there was ever a bird that said all of that, I love the snow and I'm staying out here." And unfourtunately those birds will die when that didn't have to if only they had believed.") Jesus is God in the form of a man, he is called the son of God because god impregnated mary with a child so that he could have a body to walk the earth in. The Holy Spirit is how God communicates to us (his voice). But anyhow that is where the trinity comes from: The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit. This is God but it is basically a way God has made himself accessable to us. I guess you could say it's how I have my pager, my telephone, and my voicemail. I know it sounds complicated but there was a pastor who said something that touched my heart. "Explain the Trinity and you'll lose your mind, but deny the Trinity and you'll lose your soul." Think about it people, and God Bless - 10:12:41 on 25 Dec 99 GMT

Hi there Kiya...:6 posts! The stories about god must be true then? - 10:52:36 on 25 Dec 99 GMT

MUST BE TRUE TOO>:http://www.bkkpost.samart.co.th/news/BParchive/BP971229/291297_News18.html - 12:00:34 on 25 Dec 99 GMT

OK?:OK? - 12:27:20 on 25 Dec 99 GMT

Joette:Did anyone see the Pope deliver his message last night? I found it rather amusing, the poor old dear having to be held up. It's rather pathetic that the Catholics need a leader so bad that they just keep getting him out of bed to go through the motions. I can just see some of them whetting their appetities to see that black smoke poring from the chimney any day now. At least he managed to keep his lunch down this year, as last year he vomitted during the delivery of his Christmas blessings. In any other job, I think we would call this cruel and unusual punishment, and any other organization that forced an old man to work like this would be in the courts. Oh well. - 14:24:14 on 25 Dec 99 GMT

Joette:KIYA - I thought Jesus was in heaven? How can he be in hell in your stead? - 14:25:59 on 25 Dec 99 GMT

Marlene:OK- I guess the US doesn't have freedom of speech after all. - 15:41:39 on 25 Dec 99 GMT

Marlene:KIYA- How does the "bird story" relate to a demented man committing suicide for a mythical god? Now on your bird story. If we want to get technical, birds fly away and rarely "run" away. Birds that winter in the cold do so for their survial. Birds rarely starve, there is always an abundance of food for them nor do they need to keep warm but they do sometimes seek shelter. Deer on the other hand may starve if there is too much snow. So for your next "parable" maybe you should replace "deer" with "bird" and your story may have just a kernel of credibility. PS- you wouldn't even have to change "run". - 15:48:11 on 25 Dec 99 GMT

Grant:Season's greetings, all, including the new religionist visitors. TONY-- Since you feel free to challenge atheists for sincerity or even the fact that they really hold the beliefs that they claim, think about this: I don't think you really believe there is a god. I think deep down you realize it is wishful thinking. In your post you say "Whether you choose to believe in GOD or not..." as if we are free to choose our beliefs in regard to reality the same way we choose a new sweater. Anyone who "chooses" beliefs in such a manner, whether they admit it or not, knows "deep down inside" that such beliefs are likely unrelated to reality. KIYA-- The same could be said for you, I'm afraid. Your statement "Furthermore I would hate to think that Earth is all there is. Imaginge everything we do everyday, going to school all these years, working 8 hours a day, ect. is all there is and then we die. What happens next? If that's true, then what's the point of it all. That is very sad if you all belive that this all there is. If you do then there what is the point of you even existing?" only serves to demonstrate that you are willing to "choose" beliefs for style, rather than by observation or other non-emotional means. The fact that you do not like a particular belief falls short of evidence for anything. - 17:27:14 on 25 Dec 99 GMT

Doug:Kiya: you know?; from where did you find all this info out.The telephone,TV, radio, WWW, word of mouth, meeting god/s in person.****"Jesus is God in the form of a man"*** so god really didn't die in your myth.He cloned himself, big deal.So jesus/god did all those horrible things in the Old Testament to people ;like ripping fetuses from wombs and ordering rapes and murders.Jesus/god is one sick god, dude. I question your morality with beliefs like that.God/jesus is nothing more than a blood thirsty psychopath.Lucky for you that it's all mythology. - 17:57:16 on 25 Dec 99 GMT

jaywilson the pagan--sacrificing a chicken on the grill--:So. Thought I smelled fresh meat. Welcome, newbies! - 18:24:42 on 25 Dec 99 GMT

Grant: Always new recipes for sauce, but not much variation in the chickens.:Well, hey JAYWILSON. How the heck are ya? - 20:42:36 on 25 Dec 99 GMT

jaywilson--hollydazed--:GRANT: I and mine be fine; just enough snow to cover the ground, just enough time to unwind a bit from school, and more than enough goofiness in the world to keep this cynic amused. I'll e-mail you soon. - 23:24:20 on 25 Dec 99 GMT

PapaSam:KIYA. So who made your god and where did he/she/it come from? I don't have the faintest idea where the first bit of matter came from amy more than you do but I didn't create or buy into a mythology to cover my ignorance. I enjoy my life. I have a loving family and while life is not perfect I don't have to die and go to some imaginary heaven for happiness. When I die that will be the end of me and I will live on only in the memories of my loved ones. My body will feed the worms amd bugs. and whether or not you like the idea, so will yours. If it makes you feel good to think you have a soul or spirit which will outlive you and meet your father's spirit, and his father's and his father's, and so on ad infinitum, enjoy your hallucinations. How far back will they go? To the cavemen ancestors? Did cavemen have souls? If not, when did the human race develop souls and how? I'd like to have some answers to these questions and we will go on from there. - 3:24:12 on 26 Dec 99 GMT

Grant:JOETTE-- Been looking for the Pope's Xmas message all over the place. It's not even on the Vatican News Service yet. Quite the picture you paint, though. I enjoy reading some of the pope's messages, but if the Xmas ones were food, they'd probably be cheese puffs or something. --- I'll be gone for a week. Ya'll don't break nuthin'. - 8:36:53 on 26 Dec 99 GMT

Marlene:GRANT- Have a good holiday! - 16:26:45 on 26 Dec 99 GMT

Joette:me thinks KIYA is one of those that makes his/her statements, believes there is no way they can be disputed, and disappears. Too bad, it might have been fun. - 15:02:12 on 27 Dec 99 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- Just another case of hit and run xtianism? - 15:40:38 on 27 Dec 99 GMT

RON...--->ALL...:Thank gawd the "joy of xmas" is over. Hi all! Pittsburgh is wonderful. - 0:26:35 on 28 Dec 99 GMT

Doug:All: The frenzy is rising and rising for the pseudomillenium .Or to put it another way jesuses big build up before the the big let down.I don't know about you people but as soon as it's Jan 1st they're going to realize it's 2001 not 2000 and we have to put up with another year with their BS and paranoia.AAAHHHHHH! - 3:03:21 on 28 Dec 99 GMT

jaywilson--dancing the apocalypso--:As Jim Morrison once put it, "The future's uncertain and the end is _always_ near." Fuck the math. - 17:03:26 on 28 Dec 99 GMT

Mo:I'm new to the internet and i happen to stumble along this web site. I personally think that everyone is entiltled to his or her opinion and I hope that you feel the same and will allow me to share my thoughts with you.... I have graduated from one of the most noted highschools in the country and I am studying to become a doctor. I have sat in lectures and have heard everything that "scientist" have had to say and how they try to explain why there could not possibly be a GOD..I have sat through the big bang theory and have been told that we are the result of apes that somehow became man..Please explain to me why the apes are no longer turning into humans? Do you think so little of yourselves to fall for such an insane story. When you get into an accident or are in such pain why is it that the first thing you say is "Oh GOD"? I often wonder why or how someone could love you so much that HE would give his life for a people so undeserving.. We just celebrated the birth of our LORD and SAVIOR and as I read this site someone said happy holidays (a non-believer) why is that? I'll tell you why, because even with all of your education you don't really believe that it was your alarm clock that woke you up this morning, nor your great driving abilities that enabled you to make it home tonight. You don't even believe that having an abundance of air is what enables you to breath. If it were not for a merciful GOD (who even loves the ones who hates HIM)you wouldn't even be here. I don't Love GOD because HE has the power to take my life I love HIM because HE gave me life and that more abundantly. Remember one thing, yes HE does love you but there will be a day that every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that HE IS LORD.. Thanks, MO - 2:25:13 on 29 Dec 99 GMT

Hello, it's me again, Tony. I'm not here to cast judgement on why you don't believe in GOD, I would just like to understand why. I've been a believer for 25 yrs and I would like to know were you tought that there was no GOD or did some event happen in your life to cause you to feel this way. The same way you don't understand me is the same way I don't understand you. I would like as many responses to this note as possible. - 2:31:16 on 29 Dec 99 GMT

Marlene:MO- You graduated from a "most noted highschool" and you don't understand evolution? I'm glad I graduated from a hick town highschool in 1969 and at least understood the theory as it was called at the time. But then again...are you from Kansas? If you choose to hang around here for awhile, I'll be happy to answer some of your questions on evolution but I won't waste my time if you've just dropped in to preach. And what will your big bad god do when I refuse to bow? That was a rather unfair question because you really don't know, do you MO? That is because there is no evidence that your god even exists. He's like the blue fairy. - 5:00:34 on 29 Dec 99 GMT

Marlene:TONY- Cast judgement if you would like to. It really doesn't offend me or please me. You ask why I don't believe in god. The main reason would be is that there is absolutely no evidence that he/she/it exists. Now if in the future, good hard evidence proves he/she/it's exsistence, then I would choose not to worship the god you do. After reading the bible is is supposed this pusedo-entity's word, I'm horrified with it's nature. Did something happen in my life to reject this god? Yes! I read the bible! Before I decided to read the book (or I should say books, I read three different versions and even now I'm on a mailing list discussing it's flaws), I wasn't really an atheist, maybe more an agnostic. I couldn't say I didn't believe (although I had strong doubts) because I hadn't read the supposed word of the supposed god. After reading the bible, I was horrified when I discovered the nature of this supposed god and even more horrified to think so many people worship it. I have also read other religious books about the same horrible god. This all made me think very carefully about religion and why people follow it. I have many opinions on why people decide to do so and why people create such a thing. If you decide to hang around I will expand on those but if you've just come to tell me about your god. Your too late, he/she/it is yesterday's news to me. - 5:17:29 on 29 Dec 99 GMT

Joette:I've heard of noted universities, but never a noted high school. What makes a high school "noted"? (aside from Columbine) - 12:16:56 on 29 Dec 99 GMT

Marlene:MO- Just reading your post again. This I've decided to answer even if you never post again. Your xtian christmas is not your jesus's actual birthday. I'm sure this can't be news to you if you've made any kind of informed choice on which religion you choose. Xtians have decided to make their celebration during a much more ancient celebration time. The holidays are a celebration of the winter solstice. A perfectly natural thing to celebrate seeing as the days just keep getting brighter from now until June. If I have said Merry Mythmas, it's because xtianity is a myth. Also the birth of a baby is one of the few good things about that religion that one can respect. - 16:45:04 on 29 Dec 99 GMT

Mo:Marlene, thank you for responding. Why is that non-believers are so defensive? I have read some of the other posts and most of the comments from you all are laced with a bitter under tone. It is sad to find someone so angry and defiant. I am surprised at some of the things that are said here and even more surprised that a seasoned adult would have these thoughts and feelings, some of the younger people yes but an intelligent adult no. Like the young lady who asked about a noted highschool.After all I said all she could do was come back with a not-so-good "slam". And for the record a noted highschool is one that is known for it's academic achievment. Like Tony, I just wanted to know what is so different between us that causes one person to belive in GOD and what makes one not believe in HIM. It couldn't be becasue of ones intelligence or because a teacher gave a good case for evolution. What ever the cause may be, it is obvious that we are not going to see eye to eye. I will however pray for you and the others who share your views and at the same time I will pray for myself that whatever happens in my life that I won't blame it on GOD. - 22:38:50 on 29 Dec 99 GMT

Marlene and the Gang, I read some of your reponses and I agree with Mo that your responses are laced with hate and if not hate, anger. You are entitled to your opinion. All I really wanted to know was how an individual gets to the point of not believing in GOD. Marlene, you said you read the BIBLE and it made you more non-believing. Before you read the BIBLE did you just wake up one day and decide that there was no GOD or did it start when you were a child? Was it taught by your parents? Are they athiests? Are you just dead set in concrete that there is no GOD or if there was a way to prove it would you be open minded to accept? If I can open up to receive your views would you at least do the same for me? - 22:52:15 on 29 Dec 99 GMT

Tony:The last post was from Tony - 22:53:09 on 29 Dec 99 GMT

Tony: Marlene and the Gang, I read some of your reponses and I agree with Mo that your responses are laced with hate and if not hate, anger. You are entitled to your opinion. All I really wanted to know was how an individual gets to the point of not believing in GOD. Marlene, you said you read the BIBLE and it made you more non-believing. Before you read the BIBLE did you just wake up one day and decide that there was no GOD or did it start when you were a child? Was it taught by your parents? Are they athiests? Are you just dead set in concrete that there is no GOD or if there was a way to prove it would you be open minded to accept? If I can open up to receive your views would you at least do the same for me? - 22:55:30 on 29 Dec 99 GMT

Marlene:TONY- Hate? Hate for who? One of the biggest problems with trying to communicate with some believers is their one big line they throw at atheists "responses are laced with hate and if not hate, anger". This is absolutely ridiculous! You quote me one line where anything I said was laced with hate or anger. We can begin there. Think for yourself and please don't use apologist dogma and then I think we can discuss. - 23:20:53 on 29 Dec 99 GMT

Marlene:PS..TONY- If you read my post, did I not say that I would consider the exsistence of a god if there were concrete objective evidence? - 23:23:00 on 29 Dec 99 GMT

Marlene:MO- I think I answered some of the doubts you seem to have in my post to Tony. There is an issue here that I would like to discuss with you. If your god's will is your god's will, nothing will change that. Why DO you pray? What good will it do you or anyone else? Say for instance the school rule is "no shirts with drug promoting words or pictures". Will praying, begging or pleading make the authorities that made the rule change their minds? - 23:29:11 on 29 Dec 99 GMT

Mo:Mo: Joette sweetie are you O.K.? Please tell me what you meant by your post and why you had to bring a national tragedy into this or was that GOD's fault too? If I recall correctly the two young people responsible for that senseless and cowardly act added disbelief in GOD to their profiles amongst many other traits such as racisim. What ever your views are lets discuss them without opening wounds that people are trying to heal. Unless you really want to go there. And I'm sure that even your athiest allies didn't condone senseless and cowardly acts of violence. - 23:30:49 on 29 Dec 99 GMT

Marlene:TO THE THEISTS- If you have something to discuss, do it. Why come here, do your little preachy thing, then run? It's typical of believers but I really don't understand why. If they truly believed in something, one would think they would defend their position instead of heading for the hills. From what I understand, this jesus guy of theirs didn't pull of hit and runs, why do his believers lack that intestinal fortitude? - 23:34:10 on 29 Dec 99 GMT

Marlene:MO- Hey, I need to correct you on that. The two young men who created all the heartaches at Columbine did believe in god and said in a video they made that they also expected to go to heaven. No I don't for a minute believe that it was god's fault that the young men did what they did. There is no evidence of any non-entity involved at all. The young men decided what to do and the fault lies with them. - 23:39:15 on 29 Dec 99 GMT

Marlene...Doesn't everyone now appreciate Ricky?:I miss Ricky, although a theist, he could easily communicate and he really did have the humbleness that theists attribute to the mythical jesus. He also recognised that non-believers could be "nice" people and didn't apologetically label atheists as "hateful" and "angry". Ricky will go down in my books as one of the most intelligent theists who ever visited here. I'm not even sure he attended a "noted highschool" either. - 0:04:24 on 30 Dec 99 GMT

Marlene:MO- Assuming seems to be your second nature, you label some of us "seasoned" and Joette a "young lady". Would it not be wise to just address each of us by our names here? Your debating skills need a little TLC. - 0:23:29 on 30 Dec 99 GMT

<Marlene><:For all the atheists here that would like to support evolution, I saw a really cute way to do it on the mailing list I subscribe to <evolve><. - 0:26:51 on 30 Dec 99 GMT

Joette..yeah, okay, I'm a sweetie (when I'm on the right medication):MO - what I really want to know is what a "noted" high school is. If it is "noted" for its high academic achievements, more billionaires per capita, or what? It is nice that you graduated from a "noted" high school, while many of us may have also graduated from "noted" universities. So, mine was a simple question, and you failed to answer it. As far as my mentioning Columbine, let's be honest and realize that even though it is "noted" for a tragedy, it is the only high school with a now international reputation. So, I implore you to tell me what makes a high school "noted". And for discussion purposes, why did you even mention that? - 1:11:10 on 30 Dec 99 GMT

Tony:TONY- Marlene I did not say YOU were angry or hateful your comments seemed as if you were here in person you would have a frown on your face and a wrinkle in your brow while talking to me. Im just looking for answers as to why people feel the way they do. So can we just get along and reason together? - 3:15:42 on 30 Dec 99 GMT

Marlene:TONY- Sure, and no frowns or wrinkled brow either. Now on to answer some of your questions. Like I had said, I didn't know for sure if there was a god or not before I read the bible. I was raised by two parents who believed in god as well as grandmothers and grandfathers. I went to church too. Most of my life though, I found the stories I was taught in church and by my parents to be stories that were more like fairytales than reality. Actually it was a born-again friend who urged me to read the bible because she was telling me all kinds of things were in the bible like ...the bible says your not supposed to smoke or drink and that the show I loved to watch on TV _Star Trek_ was from the devil. SO..I figured I read the darn book and discover for myself just what it said. - 3:30:43 on 30 Dec 99 GMT

Mo:Mo: O.K, O.K O.K. I am so glad that I was able to evoke everyone in this great conversation. 1) I didn't run nor do I ever run from anyone or anything espicially when it comes to defending my beliefs for the record I was at CHURCH. 2)I only mentioned that I went to a noted highschool because it was staunched in its belief of evolution. If you read carefully my first post, I attend Case Western Reserve University as a Pre-Med student and I am a Junior. No my education has nothing to do with this post, only that I would never allow anyone to tell me that I came from an ape. By the way, no one ever told me why apes no longer turn into men? 3)I pray because prayer does change things, there are many instances in the BIBLE where GOD was going to react in a certain way but the prayers of his people were heard by HIM and grace and mercy were extended. The BIBLE say that if my people which are called by my name would humble themselves and pray and turn from there ways, then will I hear them and heal their land. You are free to feel and believe the way you want to just as I am. I don't hate you infact I love you and I have never ever seen you. (Another trait that I inherited from my FATHER). I don't want to argue, I just want to try and understand, the same way I tried to understand my 9th grade science teacher who just got mad at me everytime I defended my beliefs. I will be on line for a little while longer,if you care to respond. And Marlene, I referred to you as being seasoned as a compliment. You seem very intelligent and I enjoy reading your post-and because you said you graduated in 69 so that makes you....SO can we do this peaceably and maybe learn to get to know and respect one another? - 3:46:55 on 30 Dec 99 GMT

Tony:Tony: Hey everyone I had to go off line to look up the word apologist or apologetic. I didn't graduate from college so please keep the big words to a minimum Ha Ha Ha. However I will gladly defend my faith. The problem is i refer to teh BIBLE which you guys openly disrespect. So right off the bat my foundation that I will build on is being attacked and you still don't offer a text that I can refer to that defends your stand. I am still looking for an answer to my questions Marlene. If you can explain that part, that is where we'll begin. Are you guys avoiding these questions:1) Did you wake up one day and decide that there was no GOD 2)were your parents athiests? 3) Did tragedy push you to this? It had to be something besides just reading the BIBLE and deciding it was all a myth. - 3:58:30 on 30 Dec 99 GMT

Mo:Well, I waited as long as I could but I'm going to sign off now. Take care and have a good night. Don't forget to say your prayers (SMILE) - 4:17:39 on 30 Dec 99 GMT

Joette:MO - you will find that we don't sit here waiting for answers...it's kind of a casual, "drop in" kind of place, not a chatroom. I find it interesting that you are a pre-med student, and that you don't believe the evolution theory, especially since it has withstood scientific scrutiny. How do you rationalize basic biological evolution with your creationist leanings? - 4:49:01 on 30 Dec 99 GMT

Marlene:YIKES TONY- Didn't you read my post! I answered all those questions! No tragedy or anything of the sort. There are many things in the bible that could not have happened or is there any evidence that any of them could have happened or have happened or ever will happen. If the bible is the word of god, how would such a "perfect" god come up with so many inconsistencies? That is only the tip of the iceberg when it comes to my disbelief in the bible or the god it tells us about. - 4:57:19 on 30 Dec 99 GMT

Doug:"Little" Mo:What part of evolution don't you understand. Why the preaching, do you always have to cheapen you're religion by wearing it with flashing lights and sale signs. The bible is a book of rehashed Jewish myths. It contains about one quarter of their myths and not the most important ones either.Your bible (catholic proto-type) doesn't contain all the xian myths either.The catholic church decided what to toss out and what to accept by a vote of 568 to 563 in 347 CE.These are the same guys who had the traveling brothels to ease the daily urge.Yep, these "saints" voted on what's in your bible.But of course with all your education we know that you wouldn't let someone else decide what is xian scripture and what isn't. - 5:08:42 on 30 Dec 99 GMT

Joette:TONY - start with some George H. Smith if you want some reference to books atheists read.... - 5:09:48 on 30 Dec 99 GMT

Marlene:MO- If you understand evolution, you didn't come from an ape but evolved from the same line as the ape but we won't get into that right now because it's fairly involved and you've just started here. It's likely more important that we get on some good terms here. Thank you for clearing up what you meant by noted high school. I think it's terrific you're studying to become a doctor! I don't want to argue with you either but you will have to accept that many of our opinions will differ to a great degree. I've been on this discussion for five years now. Many things atheists and theists agree on but in turn, there are many things we don't agree on. I think many theists have left here (some are still here of course) with a better positive understanding of atheism. - 5:12:19 on 30 Dec 99 GMT

Joette:TONY - this should make it easy for you... - 5:14:58 on 30 Dec 99 GMT

Marlene:MO and TONY- Like Joette has mentioned, we post to this board then check back every now and then to see what's happening. What's nice about this type of discussion is that one can be post a long post if that's what's needed to get a point across. Also we can do some research in the meantime if that's what we need to do. I think you'll like this format once you get use to it. - 5:18:04 on 30 Dec 99 GMT

<Marlene><:HI DOUG and JOETTE- How are your holidays so far? You wouldn't believe it, it's raining here in Manitoba on Dec.29! - 5:21:03 on 30 Dec 99 GMT

Marlene..goodnight:Here's something from the mailing list I'm on ......(quoting Arthur Clarke's "Childhood's End") " And the evidence is confused with mysticism - perhaps the prime aberration of the human mind. Yet your mystics, though they were lost in their delusions, had seen part of the truth. There are powers of the mind, and powers beyond the mind, which your science could never have brought within its framework without shattering it entirely. All down the ages there have been countless reports of strange phenomena - poltergeists, telepathy, precognition - which you have named but never explained. At first science ignored them, even denied their existence, and, if it is to be complete, any theory of the universe must account for them." (From Childhood's End) "Profounder things had also past. It was a completely secular age. Of the faiths that had existed before only a form of purified Buddhism - perhaps the most austere of all religions - still survived. The creeds that had been based upon miracles and revelations had collapsed utterly. With the rise of education they had slowly dissolved..." On the world's great faiths (Childhood's End) "Most of them were noble and inspiring - but that was not enough. Within a few days all of mankind's multitudinous Messiahs had lost their divinity. Beneath the fierce and passionless light of truth, faiths that had sustained millions for twice a thousand years vanished like morning dew. Humanity had lost its ancient gods; now it was old enough to have no need for new ones" - 5:27:10 on 30 Dec 99 GMT

Joette:MARLENE - no holidays for me unfortunately...Jocey was in the hospital, so no celebrations for Peter and I. We are hoping to have a bit of holiday tomorrow night, as Jocey is home on IV now. I hope your own was great, and that you didn't exhaust yourself preparing all those wonderful goodies you are famous for! - 5:28:10 on 30 Dec 99 GMT

Doug:Marlene: Wow, we haven't had so much as one snow flake in Boston.The weathers been warm and dry but it's nice to have the extra days off this time of year.Let's quiz our little under graduate: see the links. - 5:30:53 on 30 Dec 99 GMT

Joette:well, it's snowing and blowing here in Ontario! Road conditions are bad, and the snowboarders are delighted! - 5:33:27 on 30 Dec 99 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- I'm sorry to hear that Jocey is so ill again. I sure hope that she feels better for the Y2K celebrations. Our dinner wasn't the best either as my daughter wasn't feeling too well either but we made the best of it. This year I didn't do as much baking as I normally do. The good thing is that I didn't even gain any weight this year! - 14:46:28 on 30 Dec 99 GMT

Holly Alisabeth:Hi I'm kinda new here so.. cut me some slack!!!! What is it we are suppose to be talking about? I really didn't understand if you had any topic from reading your other inputs. Joette:You live in ontario? You are lucky!!! I'm stuck in louisiana where we get no snow (which i do miss) and little but no ice!! peace out:) - 14:47:17 on 30 Dec 99 GMT

Marlene:DOUG- I looked up the university too, lol! I hope Tony and Mo hang around to discuss their god. - 14:47:57 on 30 Dec 99 GMT

Marlene:HOLLY- Hi, this board is a forum for discussions on religion. It's basically an atheist based discussion but anyone can discuss what their beliefs are or lack of beliefs. You may not find anyone on line when you post here but you can be sure that by the end of the day someone will have responded to your post. Also even if you post to someone in particular, you'll likely have everyone comment on it. I love it here. Hope you stay. - 14:52:14 on 30 Dec 99 GMT

Holly Alisabeth:Tony: let me answer your questions! 1)I didn't just wake up one day and say there was no GOD, I belive in more then 1 GOD. 2)My Mom is not atheist, My mom is baptist. I was baptist but i had question that could not be answered. 3) No personal tragedy ever lead me to belive in more then 1 GOD, only the fact that im very open minded and i do believe science (evolution). question for you 1) How do you know there is a god? 2) Is the bible really real? maybe someone made part of it up? Maybe the bible was a myth that people started taking seriously 3)does it matter what our religion is? I thought it was on the inside that counted? - 14:55:13 on 30 Dec 99 GMT

Marlene:HOLLY- You believe in more than one god? - 15:34:50 on 30 Dec 99 GMT

Mo:Marlene, I was glad to see that you responded to my post again. I tried to respond back last night but the lines were down. I wanted to tell you that I apologize for the statement that your friend made to you. I for one enjoy Star Trek and I even enjoy the X-Files (when it's not to scary). Sometimes as Christians, we tend to forget where we came from take on a "Holy" attitude which is the fastest way to turn a non-christian off. I appreciate the fact that you are open to discuss your opinions which is the reason I came to this site in the first place. I don't know if I will be returning to it because besides, you noone has taken the time to "talk" about anything or answer my questions without having a bad attitude. Maybe I'll drop in from time to time and see how you are doing. P.S. Jean Luc or Cpt. Kirk? (I'm a rather old Jr. in college so I hope that I can fit into the seasoned section too.)Take care Mo. - 18:02:58 on 30 Dec 99 GMT

Mo:Doug, I think that you have proven my point even more so than the others here on this site. I wanted to get upset by your attitude but instead I just lauged. As far as my education goes, yes I do take it very seriously. Some of us were not born into homes where things came easy. I was born on the Lower East Side of Manhattan and was raised in a project community. Ever heard of one of those? I am number 4 out of 5 children raised alone by my mother after my father died when I was 10. So yes, I do wear my education on my sleeve because GOD has given me a gift that I am proud of. A gift that has allowed me to go farther than my teachers expected. After my dad died my mom moved us to a tiny city in Ohio where there was no one that resembled me. My teachers thought I would never make it and at times I thought the same. But being raised in APOSTOLIC home gave the strength to make it. So you can drop the comments about how I feel about myself. Yes I am proud but I know that if it had not been for the LORD on myside, where would I be? After you spend a few hungry nights in the projects and then come back and share your thoughts with me, tell Joette I said hello and that I now have another name to add to my prayer list, yours. - 18:19:39 on 30 Dec 99 GMT

Marlene:MO- Ya all come back here! There are times here when things can be down right nasty but hey..that's no reason to not be here. No one's going to beat you with a rubber hose because your opinions are different than someone else's. I thought some of us answered your questions. Also, it takes a while for some of the others to answer these questions. In times past someone has asked questions and people have gone to the trouble to answer them just to find that the person who asked them, never returned. Also you need to tell us what you feel too. This is a two way street here. - 18:24:00 on 30 Dec 99 GMT

Marlene:MO- PS. It's Jean Luc for me, I couldn't stand Kirk. I also love the X-Files, too bad it's the last season. - 18:25:54 on 30 Dec 99 GMT

Marlene:MO- I just read your post to Doug. Tough times plague many of us but I think all those obstacles just make us stronger people. It sounds like your mom is one tough lady and she's done a great job, obviously, of teaching her children to ride out the rough times. I understand to attribute this to your faith in god but much has to do with confidence in yourselves. - 18:34:35 on 30 Dec 99 GMT

Doug:Mo: I've spent many nights hungry on the Appalachian trail. So don't give me that nonsense.I had food dreams and stomach pains everyday and only 5000 cals. .I weighed 97 lbs when I finnished and didn't blame my plight on poverty.Food wasn't there, but I walked 30 miles a day to the Big "K". Nor did I give my nongod a place on my shoulder like so many theists do. - 19:05:04 on 30 Dec 99 GMT

Holly Alisabeth:Marlene: yes I do belive in more then one god like Zeus, Hera, Aries, ETC..! At first i thought how could people think that just one person or 1 God could build such a place that we live in and then I started to doubt if all of the junk with the bible was real. So far i have had no one come along to sway my opinon. - 23:58:32 on 30 Dec 99 GMT

Marlene:HOLLY- Interesting! Although I have no beliefs in gods, goddess etc., I have slowly been reading Greek mythology. Interestingly I found that much of the christian myth seems to be borrowed from these mythologies. I don't think that anyone should sway your opinion. If your opinion does change, it should be totally thought out by you and only you. I get a little charged when religions go to desparate lengths to sway people though. - 3:33:12 on 31 Dec 99 GMT

Holly alisabeth:I know how you feel Marlene. I always have people trying to sway me opinon and it's not that I want them to try andsway my opinon it's just I like to keep an open mind about all religions and try to read up and keep up with most of them to see if anything they are say might be what Im thinking. One thing that ticks me off is T.V., They always have people like on the news to tell them what they are thinking and the people automatically think thats how all of us think because we are all suppose to belive in one god the holy man!!:)Like if they have a christain on t.v. with them the christain will blah blah and God does not want us to end up this way or maybe he has a big test for us planned. Well if GOD (if there is one) really loved us why would he let the people at columbine do what they did? The christains say God has control over you but if he did why are we (the world) so stupid? - 16:22:47 on 31 Dec 99 GMT

Marlene:Holly- That xtian/jewish/islamic god is one mean dude IMO. What kind of loving kree_A_tor would cause such pain to his kree_A_shons? If there is any kind of horrific event, the media is sure to mention prayers. For what! Nothing, IMO, fails like prayer. As I mentioned to Mo, in the xtian religion, gawd's mind is already made up. Gawd knows what's in store for you before your born, Xtians claim they have free will. According to their bible, they do not, so what's the good of prayer. - 21:34:30 on 31 Dec 99 GMT

Marlene:HAPPY NEW YEAR EVERYONE!!! I shall be back tomorrow if my computer doesn't go down...otherwise as soon as I can fix it! - 2:21:09 on 1 Jan 100 GMT