James--->Marlene...:I agree, if they want casinos, let them have them. Just be sure and tax the revenues! - 22:51:28 on 31 Jan 98 GMT

Prove:ANSELM Here is something I found in FUNK & WAGNALLS STANDARD REFERENCE ENCYCLOPEDIA(vol 2)under 'atheism'- ""...Atheism is not necessarily irreligious. During the French revolution an attempt was made by the revolutionist Maximilien Robespierre and others to institute a state "religion of reason" which denied God. A few decades later the philosopher Auguste Comte proposed that his atheistic philosophy of positivism (q.v.) be made the basis of an organized religion. After the Russian revolution the communist part of the Soviet Union announced (December,1917) a state policy of "militant atheism" based on the materialistic doctrines of the political philosopher Karl Marx. Church activities were restricted, and government propagenda encouraged the popular acceptance of atheism. After the German attack on the Soviet Union in World War II, and especially after the death of the Russian dictator Joseph Stalin, government policy in the Soviet Union and its satellites restricted the militants of the atheists and allowed increased freedom to organized religions."" - 1:27:03 on 1 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->JAMES...I have been re-reading your history. Phew! You have had a terrible time of it, and I applaud you for making the best of a bad start. - 1:32:59 on 1 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene:Can't beat those ole Funk and Wagnalls when your reading them while browsing a used book store. There in the 2 for .05 bin. - 2:00:13 on 1 Feb 98 GMT

PETER:--JAMES--Sometimes I have to concede that God actually DOES exist as in " God, you're an asshole, James" - 2:56:29 on 1 Feb 98 GMT

PETER:JAMES--And now you guys and your dictionary definitions. I am outlining the necessary criteria involved that causes one to be what they are, and then you come back with a dictionary definition....as a counter argument!!.....I know what the the FUCKING definition is. It would be like you telling me one becomes a father after he has sex with a woman and she bears a child as a result of his sperm mating with her egg, resulting in her becoming pregnant and bearing a child--and then me coming back and saying no, no, no, no, no. The Websters dictionary says a father is a "male parent". Again, mindboggling. - 3:11:42 on 1 Feb 98 GMT

James--->Peter...:Like I said, 100% - 3:12:09 on 1 Feb 98 GMT

PapaSam:PROVE (Actually, Proves Nothing) In your inability to defend your belief in your nebulous god, you continually search dictionaries, encyclopedias and books to find some little item which you hope will discredit your opponents disbelief. You fail miserably, but you keep trying. Your latest quote from F & W is an example. "Atheism is not ncessarily irreligious" A purely subjective conclusion which happens to be an oxymoron. When we speak of "religious" we mean a belief in a so called god or deity, usually accompanied by an organized system of worship. If "not necessarily irreligious", than it must sometimes be religious. It means to believe and not believe at the same time. An obvious oxymoron. Because Robespierre or anyone else wants to pin a label on it does not change the basic definition. I. as an atheist, do not accept ypur concept of a supernatural 'god' or deity. That's what atheism is all about. You can talk about militant atheism or pacific atheism, but the adjectives have no effect on the basic meaning. I have stated what it means to be an atheist. I ought to know. I have been one all my life. Your attempts to twist the definition are futile. They serve only to feed your self-satisfaction (un-earned) to think you have found a "chink in the armor".Forget it. Your efforts are hopeless, and so are you. I suggest you and Anselm get into a huddle with your fifth grade sunday school class and try again. We need the laughs. - 3:54:47 on 1 Feb 98 GMT

PapaSam:JAMES I found your autobiography very interesting. Have you ever thought of writing as a career? I am not a literary critic but I do feel you have a talent for expressing yourself. Perhaps you could send in a short story to one of the magazines. I think it's worth a thought. You seem to have overcome the bitterness you harbored for a long time. Perhaps writing is a form of catharsis for you. In any case, you have my best wishes. To change the subject, I am neutral in your battle with our fellow posters. I save my personal venom for such as Prove, Anselm, and the liar QS. - 6:27:31 on 1 Feb 98 GMT

James--->PapaSam...:Thank you for the very generous compliment. I've considered trying to write formally, but alas so many projects, so little time. Wouldn't it be nice to live forever? - 7:16:26 on 1 Feb 98 GMT

James--->Joette...:It was no big deal...thank you though! - 7:17:41 on 1 Feb 98 GMT

QS:THE IDIOT PAPASAM: The person I talked to was Dr. S. Summers, and the time was about 15 minutes before my post. Now, I think you owe me several apologies for calling me a liar...you should be glad I talked to him because he said that even though he has never seen god, he could confirm that the same "invisible flying purple elephants" that visit you have also visited him...and to think I was about to call you a liar for saying that...shame on me! - 9:15:55 on 1 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->QS..did you then ask Dr. Summers if he has been dipping into the pharmaceuticals he precribes? - 12:23:19 on 1 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- The morphine will do it every time! Maybe QS should ask the good doctor for a little thorazine. JAMES- Thank you for the site. I think maybe some kids that I know that have been labelled with ADD could be victims of this disease. More than likely, since the test is so expensive, the medical system here would pretend that there is no such affliction. I can only imagine what your mom went through in those catholic schools. My best friend went to a school run by nuns. She has so many fears as a result. - 13:47:00 on 1 Feb 98 GMT

Bill..:JAMES, You have overcome a lot. I know similar situations myself. You should applaud yourself for taking personal responsibility for your life and making something out of it. While I don't always agree with you, anyone can be a nihilist; anyone can be the apotheosis of "self-pity." Good luck! - 15:21:41 on 1 Feb 98 GMT

Bill..:PAPASAM, Thanks for your response. Of course it's all apart of our thinking process; it's just a matter of how much "freewill" we actually have. It seems to me that when humans are stressed sufficiently, their higher mind level thinking (conscience, philosophy, religions, etc.) are overcome by their lower instinctive mind level determinant----Survival! So do people kill for ideology sake or survival sake? I think survival rules. - 15:22:06 on 1 Feb 98 GMT

Bill..:ADAM, I just have to ask, since my wife received an email from Montana with the "Word of Suess" story: Did you write that originally? It sure seems like an Adam Original! - 15:22:33 on 1 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->BILL..in case Adam doesn't have a chance to respond, I had asked the same question. It was a writer named Tom Tomorrow who wrote the Seuss piece. (although Adam is just as clever) - 18:02:37 on 1 Feb 98 GMT

PapaSam:JAMES. I find it odd when someone tells me he is bored and doesn't know what to do with his time. I wish I could borrow it. I rarely complete all the things I would like to do before the end of my day. BILL. I agre with you - survival is the bottom line. It leads to the lust for power and then the thought process creates an ideology to justify it. Isn't it amazing that between the two of us in just a few short postings we have cut to the quick and resolved the issue? Just think of all the 'PhD's created and all the volumes written and yet to be written on the subject and we have boiled it down to a few statements. And they won't even have the courtesy to quote us. Sic Transit Gloria Mundi. - 18:56:37 on 1 Feb 98 GMT

PapaSam:QS> The bullshit artist. Where does this doctor live? Lower Slobovia? Cheer up QS. It won't be long before you will see my invisible purple flying elephants frolicking with your invisible god and playing ring-around a Rosie with your mythical doctor. And if and when you give the address of your so-called doctor I will check the directory to see whether such a doctor in fact exists, I will contact him and if the facts so warrant, I will humbly apologize. Until then, I repeat my statements: You are a liar and a bullshit artist, and not too good a one at that. - 19:10:55 on 1 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene:SO! ADAM- Suess has an organized religion! - 19:52:32 on 1 Feb 98 GMT

Love4him:Looking for Christ? Try following this link. - 21:34:46 on 1 Feb 98 GMT

Love4him:Looking for Christ? Try following this link. - 21:35:01 on 1 Feb 98 GMT

Bill..:JOETTE, My wife just took a break from the computer, so I have a moment to read responses and make a few quick comments. I agree Adam is one of the cleverest writers here and I remember now that he did leave a credit at the end of this piece. This piece of writing was so much like him that I really didn't think he was serious about the credit. - 21:45:31 on 1 Feb 98 GMT

Bill..:PAPASAM, We agree and I can now die in peace! Now that we're problem solvers of the world, what do we solve next? How about ad(un)dressing Bill Clinton's sexual addictive behavior? Nawwww…..Not even God could figure that one out! - 21:46:43 on 1 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->LUV4HEEM...I think you are in the wrong place. There are only one or two at this site looking for Christ. The rest of us are looking for world peace. - 21:51:49 on 1 Feb 98 GMT

Love4him:Joette: In which case you might like to look here. - 21:57:45 on 1 Feb 98 GMT

Bill...:JAMES, After rereading my post to you, I meant to say, "While I don't always agree with you, I do respect you. Anyone can be a nihilist….." I personally, while growing up in a poor family (no plumbing, etc.), at least had food and a sober and loving mother. She was my "rock." My dad was also very fundie, religious, etc. He was physically and mentally abusive, but nothing that I couldn't cope with. What doesn't kill you makes you stronger, I suppose! I too forgave him, and let it all go, and even had a social relationship as an adult until he died. I can't really identify with your childhood experiences exactly, but can relate to the painfulness of such experiences. Pain is pain, and anyone who survives these life's experiences is usually more mature and, in many ways, a better person for having gone through them. I think it's important to acknowledge the past, with no regrets---and learn from it---and then GO ON! I know some people that are STUCK in some "stupid" past painful reality that they are, in the present, mentally dead. My most painful experiences of course came as an adult with one of my sons, but I won't go over this again as most here have already heard enough of it. It seems ironic, but I don't think I would change a thing, as I would not want to change the person that I am today. Forgiveness is not just a christian thing; it too, is tied to survival IMCO (in my current opinion). - 22:26:26 on 1 Feb 98 GMT

Bill...:PAPASAM, I meant to say, in my post to you about Clinton's sexual behavior's, "Not even your 'purple flying elephants' could figure that one out." - 22:43:59 on 1 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->LOVE4HIM...I took your challenge and looked at that site. I applaud any digs that can be made towards those groups, but I find it unfortunate that it is done by hiding behind "Christ". Why not just do it yourself, by yourself? Another danger by showing the URL is that you are giving publicity to those nefarious gangs. They should be ignored entirely. But I congratulate the effort. - 22:53:09 on 1 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->BILL..some people are "stuck" in their pain because they don't have the means or the support to get "unstuck". Abuse, negligence etc., are not things that just go away. People may be able to suppress them, but at some point in their lives, it comes back to bite them on the ass. I would prefer to see a world where we are made stronger by good leadership, as opposed to living under terrible conditions. I think people should have to pass a test before they are allowed to procreate. - 22:57:24 on 1 Feb 98 GMT

Bill...:JOETTE, I'm not totally insensitive and realize that, like any disease, the mind can also be afflicted with chemical imbalances, etc. Expecting the mind to function normally may, at times, be similar to telling your broken right arm to pick up 100 lbs. One can't always rely on his mind to heal itself. My son had a depression problem practically from birth and I understand that a lot of his problem was physical in nature and finally the right medications and time prevailed and he managed to survive. I was, in my previous post, referring to those that are able to overcome and won't put forth the necessary effort to get "unstuck." Point well taken! - 1:04:23 on 2 Feb 98 GMT

PapaSam:LOVE4HIM. I have a suggestion for you and your florist friends. There is a tribe of natives living on the Amazon river in South America. They are cannibals. Why don't you and your friends pick up jesus and go down to visit them. Maybe you could persuade them to become vegetarians. - 4:24:17 on 2 Feb 98 GMT

PapaSam:BILL. I have no idea if Bill has been getting it on - or getting it off - with all those women. If he has he has great stamina, which is what we need in a president. If what is being said about him were true I would send one of my invisible purple flying elephants down there to service him. Can you imagine him getting a blow job from an elephant's trunk? Oops! I can't believe I said that! - 4:36:07 on 2 Feb 98 GMT

PapaSam:JOETTE. Tom Tomorrow and Adam may both be great chroniclers of Dr. Seuss, but remember, I AM SAM, SAM I AM. It says so on my T Shirt. - 4:41:43 on 2 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene..everyone waiting for Willy tomorrow..hummmmm? :I wonder why Love4Heem asked atheists if they want to find christ. Just like we want to go searching the net for elves or fairies. Those white supremeists..them mothas are hoes! - 5:33:24 on 2 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->TO ALL WHO LIVE IN NORTHERN CLIMATES: Happy Groundhog Day! (they should declare it a holiday) - 11:49:14 on 2 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->GRANT (where are you BTW?)...thanks for those sites. Nothing there that we haven't heard here, is there? - 12:09:32 on 2 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->By a fluke of nature, Bill Clinton and Pope John Paul II died on the same day. St. Peter had his files mixed up, and Bill Clinton went to Heaven, while the Pope went to Hell. When God noticed the mistake, he had it corrected. On the way up, the Pope passed Bill Clinton on the way down. He said to Clinton "Thank goodness! I finally get to meet the Virgin Mary!" Bill Clinton replied "Sorry, too late." - 14:44:34 on 2 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene:Well, it's six more weeks of winter for those in the southern part of the northern climates! - 14:54:02 on 2 Feb 98 GMT

Steven:JOETTE<<>> from what I understand we will be getting 6 extra weeks of winter! Stupid groundhog! - 15:07:18 on 2 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:--->MARLENE/STEVEN..whether a rodent sees his shadow or not, we would be getting the 6 weeks of winter anyway. This legend is as silly as the resurrection! (STEVEN..you missed an exciting weekend!) - 16:31:59 on 2 Feb 98 GMT

Steven:JOETTE<<>> I know, it appears that JAMES continues to make enemy's regardless of his apparent conversion. It is easy to understand his life story. I think that many atheists began their disbelief from paying attention to what christianity does to loved ones. His views on the USA and Native Americans hopefully will change along with his attitude toward christianity. He needs to realize that the propaganda that christians spew is not that different from the propaganda the US spews. He needs to remember that history is written by the victor, at least in the past that was the case. He is only reading the history provided FOR him by news and school books. These historical accounts are always one sided. I do not believe he understands the price the natives of this country had to pay so that the founding fathers and their ilk would have a place to hang their hats. If you take his viewpoint then no country or person is responsible for past deeds, this is obvioulsy wrong. A good example of past wrongs not being righted is Ireland. Or, should we just let Charles Manson out of prison, I mean what happened in the past doesn't matter, right JAMES. - 16:52:55 on 2 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:ANY: Well, finished vol.I, comment; if any interest needs forgiveness a foremost candidate is xtianity. Through its first 415 pages it refers to one incident involving "atheists" that with others destroyed some "savants". Contrary to the QS position that atheists hold preconcieved notions of mystics, well, what I read of religious-belief eliminates any need for any atheist or anyone else for that matter, to preconcieve anything at all. I still wonder, how these religious-believers could want to think that they are in any way a xtian. It- a god thing, could be discussed if these, as they are now really lame, creator believers could say something better for their or that god-thing, that something better would serve them very well. These xtian types today do not accept, or so it seems, that their BS has been and is yet merely the perpetuation of antiquated myths and superstition. These xtian types do not accept, or so it seems, their terrible history as it was inflicted upon humanity. These xtian types really need an idea of what might be a god. - 16:57:05 on 2 Feb 98 GMT

PapaSam:CARL. I think the xtians should all be given my poem to read "An Atheist's Prayer" tells what a number one god would be like. - 17:59:25 on 2 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:STEVEN: I've seen written that M.Ghandi once said, "nature can provide for the needs of humanity but nature can not provide for the greed of humanity." I thought that would qualify as a profound thought. - 19:08:16 on 2 Feb 98 GMT

Steven:CARL<<>> that was profound, are you sure Jacy Handy didn't have something to do with it, LOL! - 19:26:00 on 2 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:STEVEN: Do you mean jc the mythical jew? - 19:38:17 on 2 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:ANY: In a bit, I'll go pickup vol.II of A.D.White and see where he'll go next with the war. The only publication I have read that speak of xtianity with any favor are those kid like bible versions that tell storys of gullible wonder and call for credulous acceptance of its telling. - 19:52:55 on 2 Feb 98 GMT

Steven:CARL<<>> I meant to say Jack Handy, the saturday night live spoof. Carl, do you know of any historical accouts, or reasons why time was recounted about 2000 years ago. What I mean is why the A.D./B.C.. I wonder when these were added in, and whom started it? - 20:00:01 on 2 Feb 98 GMT

RON...--->Joette...: Good joke, I laughed. - 20:05:41 on 2 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->STEVEN..you seem to be terrible mellow today... RON..are you talking about the joke herein, or the e-mail tongue in cheek comment? - 20:30:07 on 2 Feb 98 GMT

Eric Cartman:-->ADAM..I found the perfect "cool shit" for you today! I won't be mailing it until the end of the week, but you will probably receive it before I get mine... - 20:32:03 on 2 Feb 98 GMT

Steven:RON<<>> what happend to jesus on the way to Mt. Olive? - 20:32:12 on 2 Feb 98 GMT

Joette (wasting my workday away):-->CARL..re Ghandi's profound thought...would it not be nature that makes mankind greedy? Therefore, I do not find that quote profound. Instead, inane. Now, see if this gets Steven fighting! LOL! - 20:34:15 on 2 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:JOETTE: As in the spirit o'greed? I am of the opinion that human's collectively or individually do all, without "other" aid or assistance. - 20:47:18 on 2 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->CARL..I'm not quite sure what you mean. Could you elaborate? Thanks. - 20:54:24 on 2 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:ANY: On the tube last eve, a 60 min.snippet about some religeous believers seems they take the bible literally true, their kids were dying dispite their most fervently loaded prayers. Looks like "other" help never showed up. Even the interviewed offspring held the opinion of the parents, it was strange, the people- family, were strange, that must have been the worship of an even stranger god. - 20:56:16 on 2 Feb 98 GMT

Steven:CARL<<>>> I need to thank you for the pointer to the book written by Andrew White, it is very good. I just scratched the first chp. and I am continually shocked be how stupid or mislead someone must be to believe in the bible. - 21:02:17 on 2 Feb 98 GMT

Steven:QUITESUN<<>> this is interesting stuff, how can you know this and still believe it. Here is but one example of a shining contradiction: In the first of the biblical accounts light is created and the distinction betwee n. day and night thereby made on the first day, while the sun and moon are not created until the fourth day. Masses of profound theological and pseudo-scientific reasoning have been developed to a ccount for this -- masses so great that for ages they have obscured the simple fact that the ori ginal text is a precious revelation to us of one of the most ancient of recorded beliefs -- the belief that light and darkness are entities independent of the heavenly bodies, and that the sun, moon , and stars exist not merely to increase light but to "divide the day from the night, to be for signs and for seasons, and for days and for years," and "to rule the day and the night."on: - 21:06:33 on 2 Feb 98 GMT

carl:JOETTE: the spirit reference was to tease you, only. As for the other it goes alonf with the statement said "man is the measure of things", I think this is close to the thing actually said. Nothing profound by me mind you. - 21:32:22 on 2 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:--->CARL..in the province where I live (Ontario), parents who rely on a god to heal their sick offspring are charged with either manslaughter or negligence when the child dies. We take our medical care more seriously than our religion I'm happy to report. - 22:48:56 on 2 Feb 98 GMT

goddammit, you killed Kenny! REDUX:-->ADAM...I got the shirt! Thanks! - 22:54:11 on 2 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:STEVEN: As I read that A.White book and got a look at other stuff in addition to what I'd already seen, it went to the idea that these people- religious believers, are not really theists. They are mystics and nothing more. About all the visitors, of this site, can do is seek to insult or want us non-mystics to doubt an already considered view of a non-thing. They have nothing to say to is of the godthing. From what I have seen the godthing is just manmade, beyond that the evidence is nil. - 23:37:46 on 2 Feb 98 GMT

PETER:---STEVEN---I have often confronted christians with the apparent "light" problem, and without skipping a beat, and in chorus they sayeth ( again with their omnipresent circularity ): " ....GOD is the LIGHT!!!" end of argument. - 23:38:03 on 2 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:JOETTE: The killer xtian parents were convicted they were out yet as their case was on some appeal or other. I think they killed one tot and one teen. They were ok with that deed tho', after all the "bible" says thats how things are done. They were no different in remorse than the female Texan killer, they all say it is a matter o'god. - 23:45:10 on 2 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->PAPASAMIAM..I've been giving your "An Atheist Prayer" a lot of thought, and I wonder if it is appropriate to have the word "atheist" in the title? As an atheist myself (not speaking for anyone else), I do not pray, nor do I believe in a god, whether he/she be benevolent or malevolent, therefore having the word atheist and prayer in the same line is, IMHO, an oxymoron. Have you considered calling it "A Disillusioned Christian's Prayer" instead? - 0:18:15 on 3 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->CARL..looks like old Nellie is going to fry tomorrow afterall, even after the huge xtian outcry. Race, creed, religion etc should have no part in the carriage of justice. - 0:20:21 on 3 Feb 98 GMT

What's the difference between Bill Clinton and the Titannic? Only 350 women went down on the Titannic. - 2:24:55 on 3 Feb 98 GMT

James--->Steven...:Well Steven, It appears as though you missed a few things in my post. We all make enemies precisely because of our point of views. It depends on how seriously you consider them as an enemy that makes any difference. You think it's easy to understand my life story based on a few paragraphs I've written here? That would be like me saying I understand what it is to be an Indian from reading a newspaper article. Try not to be so quick with conclusions. It's an flaw inherent to youth that I stumble into frequently my self. I think it is the fatal flaw to atheism as well. Your hope that my beliefs will change regarding Native Americans, the USA, and Christianity is derived from an incomplete understanding of the basis' of my positions and life experiences. The only one that I think is relevant to the discussion on this page is that of Christianity. You see, an important detail you over looked was the fact that the chance I spoke off, the people who picked me up off the street, were Christians. This comment is again directed at the typically atheist point of view that beliefs like Christianity are a detriment to society and to your comment specifically. These people gave me work, food, clothing, shelter and support when they could have gone the other way. That will have a ripple effect as I to will work to be the difference in someone's life in a similar fashion..and so on. Without regard to your idea of their fantasy, they made the difference in my life and I am the empirical evidence. Secondly, I mentioned that I began to feel more than man. (poor choice of words) What I meant to say was that impressionable time in our lives, certain beliefs of the Christian faith and others give you reason to feel bigger than physical life. For me this helped rebuild my sense of self worth, false as you may beleive it to be.This is a KEY ingredient to overcoming any obstacle in life. Like it or not, it was the mechanism of change for me and likely has been for many many others. Netting an OVERALL advantage in the fight and struggle for human survival. So, don't expect me to become someone looking to slam every Christian who tries to say something about what they believe because you say I've made some conversion. I simply relealized that I have an infinite amount of hope and zero faith. What you need to realize is that you have lost your sense of objectivity. Propaganda is a big word everyone likes to throw around. How different is their propaganda from your own? Actually, my study of that time period comes from first hand documentation including diaries, journals, and official instruments of the time published in book form as well as the text book you mention, though I would not describe them quite the way you have. The study of Early American literature augmented by a thorough examination of recorded history during the time is an adequate basis for forming opinions and ideas about what happened and why. I apologize for not being as well versed as your self. Where did you say you got your information? I have no problem admitting to you that what happened to "your" people was wrong. I'm sorry. Can we and the rest of the people of this country move on now! OK, you say if you agree with me than we are saying "viewpoint then no country or person is responsible for past deeds, this is obviously wrong. A good example of past wrongs not being righted is Ireland." Alright, does it stop at Ireland? NO, what about Israel, we'll just give that back, and Bosnia…that too…and Eastern Europe..ok, done…Lets see, where else…Far East…sure…lets just give them all back. Everyone in the world will cooperate. If they don't…Steven will just call up the United States Army…WHERE DO WE DRAW THE LINE? Uhhh…Mason is still alive right….NO, lets fry the scum. Then, to make Steven happy we'll dig up the bones of our forefathers and fry them too. - 2:39:38 on 3 Feb 98 GMT

PapaSam:JOETTE. I am not a disillusioned christian. I have been an atheist since the age of twelve. I gave a lot of thought to the title. You are quite right. It is an oxymoron. You know it and I know it , but the audience for which it was intended, namely any religionist, of whatever faith, would not necessarily feel that way. It would arouse some curiosity and possibly cause them to think. The two believer critics came up with the standard "free will" defense. "God gave us free will to do good or evil" To which I reply that a kind and loving god would not give a license to rape and murder. Of course they always come up with some kind of excuse or rationale, but I know you've heard them before. - 4:03:46 on 3 Feb 98 GMT

John Scopes:Hello Everybody!!! Well, I have a big problem with the bible, and with people who seem to live by it word for word...or so they think. If you have ever read it, you will know that it is cryptic and eerie. An example is Genesis 9:20-38. Noah gets drunk and naked, as he passes out into his tent. Then, his son ham stumbles in. Ham talls his brothers, and they cover up their father. Noah awakens and curses Ham and his decendents to be slaves indefinently. "Curse the to canaan..." Another weird pard is about a group of CHILDREN who are making fun of a leper. God sends a bear to devour them all. I think that that sort of propoganda is terrible. "If people are good only because they fear punishment and hope for reward,then we are a sorry lot indeed." Albert Einstein - 5:27:42 on 3 Feb 98 GMT

urWormFood:Hello from Maryland USA...glad to see more happy normal humans who have not been infected by this god-thing...--grin--- - 8:01:59 on 3 Feb 98 GMT

[Virgin Net Free Trial] [Image][Down] [Image] [Image] February 2 1998 EUROPE [Subscribe tothe paper] [Line] [ContactUs] Pope calls in to see Roman family [Image] FROM RICHARD OWEN IN ROME Next page: 'Disneyland' fears for THE Pope made his first pastoral visit to historic Rome an ordinary Roman family yesterday. He is concerned about poor church attendance in Rome. Despite its proximity to the Vatican, the city has a strong secular tradition. Most baptisms, weddings and funerals are Roman Catholic, but less than a quarter of Rome's residents say they attend Mass regularly and fewer go to confession. The Pope, 77, arguing that "indifference is worse than militant atheism", has ordered a Vatican programme of evangelisation under which volunteer teams of church members will deliver a copy of the Gospels to every Rome household by the millennium. Yesterday the Pope spent half an hour with Giuseppe Manago, 67, a retired shopkeeper, and his extended family at their flat near the Vatican and handed out copies of the Acts of the Apostles. Although the papal visit had been well prepared, Signor Manago appeared overwhelmed. He said he was a regular churchgoer, but subject to doubts and had no idea why he had been chosen. Don Roberto Zambolin, the parish priest, said it was because the Managos were "an archetypally Italian family". Next page: 'Disneyland' fears for historic Rome Arts (Mon - Fri) | Books (Sat) (Thu) | British News | Business | Court page | Features (Mon - Fri) | Go (Sat) | Metro (Sat) | Obituaries | Opinion | Sport | Travel (Sat) (Thu) | Vision (Sat) | Weather | Weekend (Sat) | Weekend Money (Sat) | World News [Line] Copyright 1998 The Times Newspapers Limited. To inquire about rights to reproduce material from The Times, please visit the Syndication website [Image][Up] [Image] - 9:49:46 on 3 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->speaking of the Pope, he too has tried to intercede with the execution in today. This babe sure knows how to play her cards right! - 11:13:14 on 3 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->Papasam...then you are making a generalization. Not all religionists are stupid or fundemantalists. - 11:15:25 on 3 Feb 98 GMT

RON...--->Steven...: What did happend to jesus on the way to Mt. Olive? Oh, please I must know. - 13:56:22 on 3 Feb 98 GMT

Steven:RON<<>> he got his ass kicked by Popeye! - 14:01:28 on 3 Feb 98 GMT

RON...--->ALL...on the ARMY of GOD...: Have you heard of the group, _The Army of God_? It seems this group has taken credit for bombing two women's clinics and another related building resulting in the death of a police officer and injury to half-dozen other humans. How fucking proud they must feel blowing up young women, husbands and police officials. Which is worse, the xtian pick-axe bitch or this group of spineless bastards? Tonight I'll drink a toast to Texas, we haven't stayed an execution in 5 years. - 14:03:05 on 3 Feb 98 GMT

People today have made a god out of freedom.For them,freedom is of paramount importance in everything- whether it is the freedom to abort a baby or simply to ride a motorcycle without a helmet. Some freedoms are good, while others produce nothing but harm.For instance, society's rejection of traditional standards of morality has led to numerous social problems, including rampant teen pregnancy, broken marriages, and high crime rates. The apostle Paul knew well that freedom is a mixed bag. He knew that each choice we make has consequences-either good or bad.And he knew that there is only one freedom that has no drawbacks-the freedom we gain through becoming the slaves of Jesus Christ (Rom.6:16-18). Slavery to Christ frees us from the burden of trying to earn salvation through good works(v.23). It frees us from our former slavery to sin and puts us on the path that leads to heaven. We now are slaves to something that works in us to produce holiness(v.22). You have the freedom to choose. It's a choice between two masters. You can appreciate true freedom only when choose Christ as your master. What freedom lies with all who choose To live for God each day! But chains of bondage shackle those Who choose some other way. - 14:03:58 on 3 Feb 98 GMT

RON...--->Steven...: Oh shit, LOL at my desk!!! - 14:04:07 on 3 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->NAMELESS...you know not what you speak of. Now go away and read your bible. - 14:38:09 on 3 Feb 98 GMT

Steven:Why is it the christian cultists can not leave a name so we can respond. - 14:39:49 on 3 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:--->NAMELESS...I've always enjoyed chains of bondage, but that's for another website! - 14:40:33 on 3 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene:JOHN- The damn thing is in such fine print you may have misread. It was a bald man that those poor unfortunate kids laughed at. - 14:46:32 on 3 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:STEVEN: As you proceed through that "History of the Warfare..." book, the numerous examples of the '...beliefs like xtianity are a detriment to society, etc.' will become not just a humble opinion. Right now you may still be in the area of vol.I, the "detrimental" examples of that thing which JAMES seems to see favor in, is a terrible thing and it is, and JAMES includes himself in that thing, it is why I find myself saying of such BS, it is their choice "for" preferred ignorance. I'm in vol.II where the war is about miracles and medicine. Xtians need forgiveness for their preferences of ignorance. - 15:42:30 on 3 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:STEVEN: An afterthought, JAMES mentions to you "...feel more than a man, etc." that part of his line reminded me of younger times. During these times I was an athlete and was involved in some pugilism. I was in such utter good shape, I could look into an opponents eyes and see know whatever, his next move before he did it. I could see the flow of his muscle tensions and so on, I think now that at those times I may have said a line like that. Another time as young man I enjoyed hunting and the kill. One time I was far out on the lava beds, the brush was everywhere thick and high. It was early in the morn and I sat atop a ridge watching and listening to what seemed like, everything. Down off to a side I heard the hoof on lava rock sound finally seeing a very beautiful four point buck walk into an open spot. As I think back to why I did not shoot, I think now that at that moment I saw the beauty of life. I have yet to hunt again, but my point here, I did not think in terms of god,jc,holy spirits, saints, immacculate conceptions, resurrections, priests, holy scripture, etc.etc., when "...feel more than a man, etc." could have been my exclamation at these moments. - 16:14:52 on 3 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->CARL..nice story! I get feelings such as you decribed when I am sitting on a rock near really rough water. - 16:33:36 on 3 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:JOETTE: To be next to rough water is awesome, I enjoy the ocean rocky shoreline contest, like what happens now outside SF. But still, as I watch and listen and the moment exceeds me no god ever stepped forward and said "Yo! 'sup?" - 16:41:45 on 3 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene:RON- Yes, I mentioned the Army of God about a month ago. It is believed to have been involved in the shooting of a Winnipeg doctor. Here is some of their crap. - 16:41:59 on 3 Feb 98 GMT

Steven:CARL<<>> I agree with you too no end. I live in the middle of a large city and I can still go outside, sit in my back yard, look up at the sky and enjoy watching the birds. This is life to me. I can gain simple pleasures by watching ants do their thing, or watching the cats in my neighborhood interact with a social life. I so wish that I could move from this forsaken city to somewhere where nature is still in abundance. When I was a child I lived outside of Austin, Tx in Marble Falls. If you have never been in the hillcountry in Tx it is absolutly beautifull. Anyway, the white tail dear are everywhere in that part of Texas. So you could eat your breakfast outside, and 9 times out 10 mornings there would be a 5-10 whitetail deer in our backyard, completly oblivous to that fact that we were there. Thank you CARL that post made my day. - 16:50:52 on 3 Feb 98 GMT

Steven:uhhhh, dear should be deer. - 16:52:13 on 3 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->STEVEN..could it not also be dear deer? LOL! (you'd think I have nothing better to do with my time...) - 17:37:38 on 3 Feb 98 GMT

PETER:--STEVEN--I am rather shocked at your rather tame reaction to James and all his stuff. I would have thought you would be writing out a contract on him over the weekend! - 18:08:56 on 3 Feb 98 GMT

PapaSam:JOETTE. My work was not written for stupid people or fundies, although if they do read it it's alright with me.If you re-read my post you sill see that I said "--not necessarily feel that way." I realize that an individual can be highly intelligent and still be a true believer due to indoctrination as a child or even brainwashing as an adult. Only 4% of Mensa members claim to be atheists. A large percentage profess various religious beliefs. i do not have the arrogance to label people who disagree with me as stupid. While I consider myself to be highly intelligent I realize full well that I can be wrong - if not often. As you can see, modesty is not one of my virtues. I think my poem is an excellent piece of work. I hope I have cleared up your objctions to the title. Aside from that, what do you think of the content? - 19:09:55 on 3 Feb 98 GMT

PapaSam:NAMELESS SLAVE. I prefer freedom. You can stay on your knees and kiss the mythical ass of your mythical jesus, and, if you wish, you can stay on your knees in the real world. You might even go to visit Bill Clinton. If what his critics say of him is true, he could find some use for you while you are on your knees. - 19:21:44 on 3 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:P'SAM: IQ, degree's, affiliations of intellect, all these are nice, but when one reads about some of the things the religious-believer has done and if it goes that the idea- any part makes a whole, then the religious believer, e.g., xtians, these people must be stupid. For example St.Ambrose declared that,"the precepts of medicine are contrary to celestial science, watching and prayer." How can it be thought that a non-stupid person would make such a declaration? That is part of the religious-believers sum total, true? Xtians must be forgiven as just a people. - 19:23:08 on 3 Feb 98 GMT

Peter Kinane:Re a causal explanation, what is behind the design of nature, etc. : These issues are loaded with Categoricalist premises. I see no necessary evidence of Categoricalism, and have produced a Categoricalism free system, published at www.philosophypeterkinane.com - 19:30:00 on 3 Feb 98 GMT

Steven:PETER<<>> well, I thought about blasting James again but it hasn't done any good. All it seems to do is make me angry. I, when I was in my teens, felt and acted exactly as James does. God, family, country etc... gag. I do not understand his aggressive feelings toward the Natives of this continent. He sometimes does sound like a red-neck racist. There are alot of negatives in Texas when it comes to race relations. The Mexicans hate the blacks, the blacks hate the whites, and the whites hate everyone. This of course is an exageration. I am talking about the average person in this state. If you drive into rural towns in Texas, you have the whites on one side of town, and everyone else on the other. There is a little town called Vider, Tx, where a black person to this day are not allowed to live. I say not allowed, what I mean is, if any person of color moves into this town they are driven out physically. Anyway James it appears, is very fond of his little country, he does not care how it was won, and who had to suffer to get it. I loved his little response to Native American Casino's. My personal hope is that these casino's are just the begining. It is my personal wish that they make billions of dollars off of these casinos. It is my opionion that they should NEVER have to pay tax's on these operations. They shouldn't even have to worry about wether they are legal or not. The native populations should be immune to the laws in which the US forces on its citizens. This may be a pipe dream, but I wish the natives were allowed to rule themselves, with their own gov., with their own laws. My wife and I had a long discussion and I came to realize that spewing curses and threatening people is not the way to make them see what you are attempting to help them see. So I am going to try a different approach with James etc... I wouldn't hold my breath though. As soon as James, Quack etc.. says something absolutly stupid I will probably explode and make an ass of myself again, such is life. I have been reading "shambala; the way of the warrior" and there are many things which it speaks about that hit home. This is not religous bs, but a guide for ancient warriors on honor, intelligence, and when to use force (and when not to). These are also lessons which I teach to my martial arts students. I need to practice what I preach so to speak. I haved learned that uneeded anger is a waste of energy. This makes sense to me like never before. There is a place for anger, but when dealing with an enemy I should remain calm. Also, "place your enemy even closer than you place your allies". - 19:58:13 on 3 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene..taking a break..JOETTE- Yup, I'm busy again, later!:Hummmm, PAPASAM- Intelligence is measured by different standards. IMO, sometimes those with lower IQ's are more aware than those with higher IQs. For instance, as one person observed, "life is like a box of chocolates". STEVEN- Hey, whether you fly off the handle or mealy mouth a point it all boils down to the same damn thing. Someone who refuses to see a point will continue to deny it. I rather like your "in the face" approach, I think there is too much "beating around the bush" tactics these days. ANYONE have time to check out this Kinane's site yet? CARL- I live where deer, moose, bears etc. etc. live right next door to me. I live right on the edge of a Provincial Forestry. It is beautiful and peaceful. I doubt I'd survive in a city. I did live in a city for a few years, not out of choice but out of neccessity. I remember going out for a walk and smelling barbaques(sp). I think I cried for a half hour after I got home and didn't bother to go for another walk until I moved back to the country. - 20:34:01 on 3 Feb 98 GMT

jaywilson-san--a man among Men-sans (major domo arigato?):MARLENE: I must agree; intelligence isn't what we think it is, and what we think of it may not be its true value. Hitler was an intelligent man, and, if he really lived, so was Christ. That said, I concur as well with PAPASAM who correctly points out that very few Mensans admit to being atheists. Intelligence is a minor factor in one's subscribing to a system of belief. Personally, I like to think of atheism as evidence of common sense, not necessarily of intelligence. To be intelligent as well as possessed of common sense is rare and valuable. - 21:50:11 on 3 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->PAPASAM..re the content of your literary work. I think it is pleasant, to be honest, I can't get past the god thing. I think John Lennon's "Imagine" conveys the same message, without any reference to a deity. - 21:55:33 on 3 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->jaywilson...there is "common sense" and there is logic. What may be of common sense to one person, may not be so for another. For example, here where I live, we are quite civilized, but I have actually been asked if there are Catholic churches in Canada (by an American, no less). Common sense is common to denizens of an area, so I don't like that term. (not that it matters, right?) - 21:59:32 on 3 Feb 98 GMT

papaSam:CARL. I am not familiar with the ramblings of the so called saints. It is a waste of time reading them. I believe you underestimate the power of indoctrination. The old saw "give me the child and I will give you the man" usually holds true. It is extremely difficult to give up a belief sucked in with the mother's milk. There is nothing so ridiculous that it cannot be rationalized by the religionist with by the simple expedient of passing the buck to "God". God can do any thing he wants to. William Jennings Bryan, the lawyer who lost the battle to Clarence Darrow in the Scopes trial is reported to have said "If the bible said that Jonah swllowed the whale I would believe it." I prefer to think their belief is a form of mental blindness, not stupidity. Occasionally, one such individual will find a pair of glasses. "I can't imagine how blind I was not to see it before." - 22:07:50 on 3 Feb 98 GMT

jaywilson--a common sensei--:JOETTE: Pardon me if I split hairs, but I would define intelligence as a predilection towards logic, whereas common sense is a less rigid, yet more widespread (not more provincial, as you imply) --and, therefore, _common_ attitude. The insularity you ascribe to "common sense" may be more aptly communicated by the term "street-wise." Country folk are not street-wise, but, like their urban brethren (and sistren), often possessed of the same common sense that prompts both to open an umbrella when it rains--or save for that rainy day. - 22:14:19 on 3 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- Checking in again..I agree, Lennon's "Imagine" is one of the most beautiful songs I've ever heard. In fact, I've made it clear to my kids, if they insist on having a little get together or whatever on my death, this is the one song I want played and no others. JAYWILSON- I'm one of them thar cuntry folk, you sayin' as I'm not streetwise? I'll be havin ya know when it go to the big ciry that I don't be walkin out in traffic and I wear my shoes. - 22:22:13 on 3 Feb 98 GMT

jaywilson--out-standing in his field--:MARLENE: No, you be road-wise. - 22:23:51 on 3 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene..gotta go russle up some supper:JAYWILSON- Wiser than them thar skunks and porkyapines, that's assure! - 22:31:10 on 3 Feb 98 GMT

jaywilson--ah wuz country when country wuzent cool--:MARLENE: Save me a seat at the billi-ard table; ah'll join y'all fuh some possum pie and take a dee-up in the ce-ment pond! - 22:37:52 on 3 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:P'SAM: Well, that was a new slant for me, on religious belief and while it was not a full fledged position yet, as I continue to read of their terribleness, I thought the deeds I read of could use a wind-cock, you kno? No matter the direction no matter its intensity the 'wind' moves it nonetheless. ANY, common sense has some misgivings and it is not all its made out to be, u'kno? - 22:39:19 on 3 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->jaywilson...sorry, but I don't agree with you. If atheism is a sign of common sense, as opposed to logic, then you would have to admit that those with common sense are in the minority, therefore it would not be common. - 22:40:12 on 3 Feb 98 GMT

jaywilson--two degrees above zero--:CARL: Well, ain't you smart. No one ever became no Ph.D with common sense, now, did they? - 22:42:28 on 3 Feb 98 GMT

jaywilson--figures don't lie, but liars can figure--:JOETTE: You are a shrewd thinker; nonetheless, logic exists when material proof fails--take, for example, higher mathematics or physics. Therefore, atheism is common sense. I would hazard a bet that more people don't believe in a god than do. Any takers? - 22:48:27 on 3 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:JAYWILSON: are you new? goota run gonna pay tio sam. - 22:54:53 on 3 Feb 98 GMT

Joette..wagering for Pascal:-->jaywilson..this time I agree with you! My common sense tells me that most people "say" they believe in a god, but inside, they don't. - 22:57:23 on 3 Feb 98 GMT

jaywilson--for those who think Jung--:JOETTE: And I agree with you; religion is the system which shrewdly uses the logic of psychology to blunt the common sense of its believers. - 23:04:34 on 3 Feb 98 GMT

jaywilson--let's not say goodbye; let's just say-onara--:CARL and ALL: Not new, just renewed. Gotta run myself. Later. - 23:08:44 on 3 Feb 98 GMT

Joette...I'm afreud I have to go now...:-->jaywilson..not only religion, but governments too. Another example of common sense, versus intellect, happened today, and maybe you heard about it. In Italy, 20 people died when the cable car they were on for the purpose of skiing crashed to the ground. It would seem that an American military plane flew too low, and that is how the cable was cut. Now, would it be common sense or logic that should have told that pilot not to be flying too close to that mountain? - 23:12:01 on 3 Feb 98 GMT

great minds do think alike! - 23:14:04 on 3 Feb 98 GMT

jaywilson--like falling off a log-ic--:JOETTE: Military flight often involves NOE, or "Nap Of [the]Earth" (meaning tree-top level) execution--perhaps the unintended yet operative pun here. Intelligence says that the mission must be logically followed in order to complete its intent; common sense says that Murphy's Law is never out of jurisdiction--especially if the logical pilot flies over terrain he hasn't the common sense to examine pre-flight. Ergo sum, the crash. By the way, nice pun on Sigmund. Bye. - 23:30:53 on 3 Feb 98 GMT

James--->Steven...:Steven, you have no idea what I feel and to say you acted as a teen exactly as I do now is barely laughable. You mock the generalized list of priorities that have been combinations of success for many people. Then you proceed with some foolish attempt to prioritize my life, like you would know. For the record, my list starts with FAMILY and God does not even enter the picture. If he exist, it won't be until I die that it will even matter. I can't be expected to believe in something I cannot even perceive; isn't this atheism 101? Neither can you. Furthermore, until each and everyone of us has had the experience of dying we do not have the benefit of experience to know either way. For the record, I have no AGGRESSIVE feelings toward Native Americans. Their plight is a sad and tragic one. Again, though it is past tense…way past tense. I am hard on anyone that looks for special privileges at the cost of others and I am sick of the whole victim thing too. Hell we are all victims. Welcome aboard. Sit down, shut up, and hang on. As for your description of race relations in Texas, I think what you have actually described is your own view of how these relations should exist. To say on one hand that you are exaggerating a bit, then to follow with the idea that the average Texan is a racist ..what is that saying Peter uses? MINDBOGGLING! The truth is Texas has it's racist, no more and no less than any other spot on the globe. I have lived in San Antonio, Dallas, Kerrville, Bandera, Marble Falls, New Braunfels, Fredricksburg, Houston and a few other places along the way. Never have I seen the prolific attitude of racism you are describing. So I must simply call bullshit on that. Now, Vidor on the other hand, is the KKK capital of the US. To use it to portray the rest of small town Texas is an injustice. Again, I must ask why you inflict so much misery on yourself. Why not leave if it is so bad. Who would continue to live in a place where every other person you looked at was a racist? After all aren't we talking about averages (50%?). What kind of person would raise children in that kind of environment especially when you have an entire world of choices better suited? I don't understand you fellow! I am happy that you are grasping virtues such as patience and self control. These are generally considered positive moral traits and are also apart of many religion oriented belief systems. It would be nice if they were apart of everyone's belief system. Take care. - 1:10:09 on 4 Feb 98 GMT

James--->Ron...:I can't wait until they start putting these executions on pay perview! - 1:11:39 on 4 Feb 98 GMT

PapaSam:JOETTE. If you want to catch fish you have to use the right bait. Who's this Lennon guy? (Aside: watch the feedback on this!) ALL. Common sense is the use of such intelligence we have in a logical manner. People having the combination of intelligence and common sense are rare indeed, as jaywilson said. Isn't it sad that there are so few of us, all concentrated on this web site? - 1:30:44 on 4 Feb 98 GMT

PETER:--PAPASAM---He's the guy that said he and his three buddy co-worker/musician/teen idols were more popular than Jesus back around the mid-sixties. - 3:13:32 on 4 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->JAMES...and that's not a red-neck comment? - 11:17:17 on 4 Feb 98 GMT

James--->Joette...:NO, that's a cry for justice. Really, just a saying you hear alot these days....What is your beleif of mercy? Is mercy good or bad? - 12:51:02 on 4 Feb 98 GMT

Steven:JAMES<<>> If you can not live with FACTS then shut the fuck up. You sit in your expensive house with all your little trucks and continue to live in your WASP fantasy world. Oh the poor white people, everyone wants to take advantage of us. Fucking please, there were no racist on this continent until about 350 years ago, get it asshole. For that matter, if we stick to your point, the woman who was just executed should have been let go. Hell, what is past is past right James. I mean who cares if she pick axed someone to death, that was in the past. Who cares how many people the US slaughtered in the conquest of this nation, it was in the past. James, your poor little me complex is getting tired. I'm not the only one calling you a red neck asshole. Go polish that 12 gauge in your gun rack asshole. - 13:33:39 on 4 Feb 98 GMT

Steven:JAMES<<>> I will never leave this country jerk. If you don't like something you change it, not leave it. That is the cowards way out, since it is your sugestion, who is the coward? I will not act as you would. - 13:36:08 on 4 Feb 98 GMT

PETER:--Now THERE'S the Steve we all know and love. However,I must disagree with you on one point. Since Indian tribes did fight amongst each other,( They certainly did in Canada ) I have a difficult time believing there wasn't any prejudice amongst themselves. Maybe not rascism per se,--how about "tribeism". I cannot think of any civilization in history that has been free of this short-sightedness. Many say rascism has to be LEARNED--I say that's a big load of crap. I think it's instinctive. On must learn NOT TO have prejudicial tendencies. - 14:41:00 on 4 Feb 98 GMT

Steven:PETER<<>> point taken. - 14:48:29 on 4 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene:JAMES- I certainly hope that if an execution is ever broadcasted on TV that it will be on pay-per-view and not a free freak show! I can't fathom how one with good morals and especially so-called "good christian morals" can find an execution morally entertaining. It's another xtian "I want it both ways". Steven really has a point, does he not? If punishment for murder is death by xtian standards then is it not murder to kill those who are at a disadvantage. For instance, the Europeans had guns and the Aboriginal people of North America did not? Another point is that, again, morals are relative to a society. In this day, murder is not considered morally proper but yet it is still very much murder when one is forced to die by lethal injection, hanging, firing squad or whatever other weapon the so-called moral law allows. Again, they want it both ways. - 14:53:23 on 4 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene:PETER and STEVEN- I think maybe the origin of prejudice begins with our basic instinct of territorial rights, no? Anything different that threatens our survival is fought against and destroyed? No matter how illogical it may seem to a reasoning person, of course. - 14:57:05 on 4 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:STEVEN: As grissly as her crime was I was still somehow, surprised that the texan female was executed. I found myself wondering if she had a good defender? I also sometimes wonder if it is a big jump from the simple execution of these individuals to experimentation? Was it a big jump from witch possesed insane heretic burnings to science and medicine? the experimentation wouldn't be just mengele stuff. - 15:40:06 on 4 Feb 98 GMT

RON...(HA HA HA)...--->James...: They'll never put Texas executions on pay-per-view. The prison officials don't want the prisoner's family seeing the victim's families urinating on the lifeless body of the criminal after the witnesses have left the building. HA HA HA....Texas allows such fun. Imagine, charging say, $50/execution...people/clubs/sports bars would all buy in. We could raise school funding!!! We could repair our highways!!! "America, America, God gave his grace for thee..." (God's grace, just for us Americans) - 15:42:02 on 4 Feb 98 GMT

RON...--->Carl...: Texas has not stayed an execution since 1993, 37 men died by execution in Texas prisons last year, more than half the national total. The crummy part to this story is these bastards (and axe wielding bitches) still serve years on death row before we kill them. They should be hauled from the court room and shot, on sight, in front of the convicting jury. Gosh, am I ever in a pissy mood. - 15:48:56 on 4 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->CARL..I just finished reading a case study about a serial killer in Oregon. His defender used the argument that he would be better off alive in order to use his brain for medical studies. While that sounded like a good reason to keep him alive, the prosecutor argued that there is no guarantee that the criminal would take part in studies once he was given a life sentence, instead of the death penalty. As with Ms. Carla Faye Tucker, while she may have done some good if she were allowed to live, whose to say her conversion wasn't just some sort of facade to add to the longevity of her life? - 16:34:26 on 4 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene:RON- Pissy mood for sure! I'll write tonight. I've been really busy with home renovations so I haven't had much time but tonight I have free. On the prison thing, I don't agree with the death penalty but then again I don't agree with prisons being as comfy as they are either. I say put all these people on a chain gang. What ever money they earn should go to the victims family for as long as the prisoner shall live and work. They owe, they owe so to work they should go! BTW if they refuse to work then solitary may be an option. I think Joe Apioh(sp) may have the answer to prison conditions. - 16:35:02 on 4 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- This is what pissed me off completely. The appeal wasn't made merely to have the death sentence revolked but to also announce she was special because she found jesus. That pastor was just whinning about that this morning on an interview I heard. - 16:38:52 on 4 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:RON: I'll go along that TX is the lone star o'the union talk, but as for the execution thing at a site against that action it showed that one's income was pointedly a factor as who got onto death row and who did not go there. While killing is bad, right with that bad state is lack of fairness for all. Or, does the golden rule apply here? - 16:38:58 on 4 Feb 98 GMT

PETER:--MARLENE--Yes, I think territorial rights has something to do with it, however that is only one ingredient. When a group of people seem to unlike those one cohabitates with--it's easy to group them all together, and make a general moral judgement on the whole bunch based on the actions of a few. Rather than judge them as individuals ( as one would with his own neighbours )--they judge the whole group as "being all the same"--and this is where the trouble starts. Actually one encounters this on practically a daily basis. The example I like to use is when driving. If another person cuts you off, or something of that nature which would spark some "road rage"--and that person is one of "your kind"--you will grumble. "Oh that bleeping bleep--BUT only make that moral judgement on HIM alone. However, if one gets cut off by a chinese person ( or any other person unlike oneself--even the other sex )one day, he will say " Oh those bleeping Chinese don't know how to drive! TYPICAL !" Especially if months later one does it again--infact I believe people will actually HOPE it is another chinese person, just to re-affirm their initial judgement. - 16:45:44 on 4 Feb 98 GMT

HOWARD STERN ON CARLA RAYE"S EXECUTION--:: "They should dig her up, and kill the bitch again" - 16:50:23 on 4 Feb 98 GMT

Steven:ANY<<>> how is this idea. You take all serious offenders. Lets say for starters rapists, murderers, serial killers, child molesters etc... and put them on an island. Surround the island with heavy security (i.e. barbed wire, land mines, missle batteries in case someone attempts escape through the air via helicopters etc.... Put all these criminals on the island and let them fend for themselves. Stock the island with wild game and fish and let them feed themselves. They would be out of society and would harm no one. This would also take the burden of haveing the gov. punish or execute them. This may be a lame idea but I think it might work if done correctly. - 16:53:21 on 4 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene:CARL- I'm not sure if this is what your meant but to force someone into experimenation would also be inhumane as far as I'm concerned. Because they have committed a crime against society doesn't make them any less human. Working hard has proven to be good for one's physical and mental being. To force them to work would not be inhumane but to kill them against their will or to use them in any other way that was inhumane would be immoral, no? If they choose death then I would think that would be a different story, then by all means let them administer the lethal injection themselves. I know people who are in prison here. It costs us $40,000.00 to keep a prisoner in jail here a year. People on minimum wage (and there are lots of them) make a meager $12,000.00 per year and some of them have a family to feed. The prisoners here eat very very well, but a family living on $14,000.00 does not. The prisoners also have big-screen color TV, recreation facilities, etc, etc. but that minimum wage family can not afford these special conviences. Is the family not being treated more inhumanely than the prisoner? Prisoners don't need TV, sports facilites etc. etc. It wouldn't cost us near the amount if luxuries weren't provided for those who desrerve them in the least. - 16:53:54 on 4 Feb 98 GMT

RON...--->Marlene...: Looking forward to your email. I have to disagree. We are human, none are above the others, but when a human places himself above another human and takes a human life the state must rise above and condemn the offender to death. I like the death penalty because it costs too much to house and care for violent prisoners year after year. I would rather they be limited to one appeal to be applied 30 days after trial. When they loose this appeal, shoot them in the head...the cost is roughly $1 per prisoner. force their family to come after the body. The End. - 16:55:39 on 4 Feb 98 GMT

RON...--->Steven...: As long as I can stand off from the island and lob morters into it, I'll go along. Screw it, Steven, hang the bastards in a public square in the middle of town the way we used to. Let their rotting corpses dangle for a few days and let other would-be criminals gaze on their futures. They're violent criminals, for pete's sake. - 16:58:42 on 4 Feb 98 GMT

RON...--->Carl...: The amount of money you have is a direct influence on your NEED to be a criminal or not. Lotsa money, no crime, and visa-versa. I don't believe it has anything to do with who gets on\off death row. Do you think her lawyers were being paid by her family to mount all those appeals? NO, they wanted to be the first lawyer to stay a Texas execution in 6 years. Imagine how much they can charge after thet feat? - 17:02:14 on 4 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene:RON- At one time, I admit, I did agree with the death penalty for the very same reason you do. It was cheaper and the convict deserved it but in the last 20 years, I've been able to look at it from a different perspective and that's because of my kids. Firstly if one of my children killed someone I know I wouldn't say that he/she deserved to die also. Secondly if someone killed my kids, I know that I would not morally beable to administer that lethal injection. Thirdly, there have been at least two people I know of in Canada that have been found innocent of murder after them spending 10-20 years in jail after they were convicted of that same murder. I feel, if we kill one innocent person, it's one too many. - 17:05:19 on 4 Feb 98 GMT

Steven:RON<<>> I think that is probably what would happen if they were left on their own. - 17:31:08 on 4 Feb 98 GMT

Steven:MARLENE<<>> I'm sorry, but if someone kille my kid or raped my wife. Their is not a cop, prison, court on this planet that would stop me from blowing their head off. I believe in the death penalty to some extent. I don't believe you should be hanged for stealing a horse, but if you slam a pick axe into someone 28 times and have multiple orgasms while doing it, you deserve to die in the same manner. Once you decide to do this, you forfeit your opportunity to live your life. - 17:36:39 on 4 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:RON: At the site I mentioned, if can find it I'll set it up here, it showed that big money types get away with murder, a good example is a Kennedy relative that murder evidence say he is a killer, but the girls'mother says that because of the Kennedy name and "money" her daughter's killer is considered an unknown. It is a story many have heard, but the point of that site was that it is the "poor folks" that regularly are those that get the death penalty. The site referred to the TX scene because so many are executed there. So that is my point if the state kills others in my name- the people versus thing, then I want no exclusions for anyone. - 17:36:58 on 4 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->STEVEN..re your island idea...it's been done; it's called Australia. - 18:21:21 on 4 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:STEVEN: Did the killer xtian really say that? I just heard about the other night as something, or so I figgered, said by some other interested observer. - 18:28:04 on 4 Feb 98 GMT

RON...--->HA HA HA....Joette....: Don't forget Manhattan. - 18:30:41 on 4 Feb 98 GMT

RON...--->Carl...: It was reported to me that yesterday evening she apologized to the victim's families and pronounced her love to her family. One of the fathers said he couldn't forgive her, no matter how she's changed. - 18:32:55 on 4 Feb 98 GMT

RON...--->Marlene\Steven...: Marlene, I have to agree with Steven. If someone killed my child, they will die. I would be glad to list my wife's phone numbers and addresses if anyone is interested. Anyway, I would administer the lethal dose if my children were killed and the killer caught. - 18:49:00 on 4 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:MARLENE: Well a conviction of a capital crime that calls for a capital punishment I think these people yield their own humanity by the very nature of their crime. Their link to humanity would be in them replacing the monkeys and dogs and other rats now in the lab. If not a replacement these criminals would become like the creature there now, experimental fodder for the improvement of humanity. But not the joseph mengele sort of thing[s]. It would beat the heck outta keepin em alive thru appeals and so on. These appeals run into 1,000,000s, but a life sentence is @800,000. Either is an expense, lets balance the books. - 19:13:35 on 4 Feb 98 GMT

Steven:CARL<<>> This is what occured. Her and her boyfriend went to this persons house. The victem and his wife were asleep naked in bed. Karla Tucker was the womans name and her boyfriends name was Danny Garret. Anyway, the victems Mr. & Ms. Dean apparently owed Karla and Danny some money. Karla & Danny decided to go get the money. When they entered the door Danny went directly to the victems bedroom and proceeded to beat him in the head with a hammer. This apparently caused Mr. Dean some trauma so he proceeded to gurgle, presumably because he had blood in his throat. This gurgling apparently bothered Karla so she found a 3ft pick axe (which Mr. Dean used for work) and slammed it in his chest approximately 28 times. Danny upon noticing that Ms. Dean was screaming slammed her just 5 times and left the pick axe buried in her chest. Sounds like a great reason to kills someone, doesn't it? - 19:30:51 on 4 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:STEVEN: With friends like one does not need enemys, I guess some acquaintence was involved? So then, since all the prayers went unhheeded, ex-xtians must be burnin'crosses and bibles in heap after heap. Churchmen must can see now, that their unanswered heartfelt prayers, like they in TX and elsewhere were doin, went without response, so their energy would be better spent elsewhere doing other things? - 19:59:32 on 4 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->RON/STEVEN et al...what about someone like Ted Bundy, who was a classic sociopath. He didn't ask to be born with that mental illness, and it most cases, it is the nature of the person's upbringing that cause sociopathic tendencies. Should someone like that die, and if so, why, if they have no control over their impulses? This part of capital punishment is what really bothers me. - 20:11:44 on 4 Feb 98 GMT

Joette....speaking of Manhatten....:-->one-ADAM-12...come in, ADAM 12.. - 20:13:07 on 4 Feb 98 GMT

test - 20:37:38 on 4 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:JOETTE: On the Bundy thing, he had potential, experiment study learn and anticipate. - 20:57:02 on 4 Feb 98 GMT

Steven:JoEtTe<<>> mass murderers are cool, huh huh! I am not sure what to do with them. I would be willing to bet that the largest percentage of killers are not sociopaths. They kill for a variety of reasons. Anyway if they are found to be mentally unbalanced then put em in a hospital. - 21:03:08 on 4 Feb 98 GMT

Steven:PETER<<>> wouldn't you say that it is instinctual for man to kill? It is in every other species. - 21:04:30 on 4 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:--<StEvEn..Ted Bundy was a serial killer, not a mass murderer. There is a very big difference between the two, the most obvious being that most mass murderers also die at the time of their rampage (it is a favourite for those that want to commit suicide by cop). Mass murderers are usually doing what they are doing due to rage at a certain person, or segment of society. It is usually premeditated, while a serial killer is usually operating on a compulsion that cannot control. - 21:28:26 on 4 Feb 98 GMT

Steven:JOETTE<<>> ok, mass murderes smuderers. Anyway kill em all and let the worms sort 'em out. - 21:44:30 on 4 Feb 98 GMT

mark:joette:Do you think ted bundy knew what he was doing? - 21:48:02 on 4 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->STEVEN..so let me make this clear. You believe that people who kill due to a mental illness should also be executed? - 21:49:52 on 4 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->mark..Ted Bundy had the LEGAL capacity to know the difference between right and wrong. That is why he could not use an insanity defence, even though he would be a perfect candidate for it. He was acting on urges, that for him, were natural. They are not natural for those of us who are not sociopaths, but that does not mean that he could control his compulsion. - 21:52:54 on 4 Feb 98 GMT

Hi Rob! - 21:54:18 on 4 Feb 98 GMT

Joette...no way, Jose...:-->ADAM...the Jays signed Canseco today! - 22:36:54 on 4 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:JOETTE: You make it sound so very regrettable that Bundy burned without leaving any data behind for a future reference o'any kind. That was the real loss, nobody knows exactly his kinds logic or illogic, that depends on which side o'the fence you see. Charlie is still here, lets hook him up get some readouts. - 22:51:10 on 4 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->CARL..there are a lot of Charlie's around, but they are tossed into federal prison's where they do not have access to (in most instances) psychiatric help and/or assessment. Maybe if that part of the penal code was changed, and psychiatrist's were made available to these people, the studies could be done inadvertently. It would have been a good idea if they had removed Bundy's brain after he died, for actual physical studies. - 23:33:19 on 4 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:JOETTE: C.Manson could be a good study, although I am of the opinion he got railroaded by bugalosi[sic?] who ended up going nowhere politically. How these people DA and such can make a case of or about sanity before the peers of an accused means I sure that someone will be falsely accused and end up doing a real crime,i.e., locked without real evidence. That has been a thought I have been wondering about in these killer cases. tomorrow. - 23:56:17 on 4 Feb 98 GMT

PapaSam:JOETTE. I am in favor of the death penalty where warranted. Religiionists may say that only god can take a life. My vote is for the state. If some inividual were to rape your child would it make any difference to your child if he were a sociopath who was the victimm of abuse as a child? I believe he should get the death penalty. If you had your way would you send him to a mental institution? So they cure him in five years. What next? Send the rapist to a regular prison? If he was not "responsible" at the time of his crime does he suddenly assume responsibility when he is cured? Or do you feel he should be released into society? Maybe you could find a nice home for him down the street from you so he could become friends with your daughter. Sorry Joette, I think he deserves to die and i fo one would be happy to pull the plug on him. I would also be happy to do the same for any mass murderer who neglected to kill himself. MARLENE I realize that the administration of justice is such that it favors the man who can hire the best lawyers. I also know that innocent men have been wrongfully convicted. I am concerned only with those where there is no question of guilt. I don't care if the rapist is of sound mind or not. The crime warrants the penalty. Another example of the death penalty being justified. A life prisoner kills a guard. What would you do? Sentence him to another life sentence? Would you kill to prevent your child from bing raped? I would hope so. If the crime is such that you would kill to prevent it, why not the death penalty after the crime? Does the rapist's life gain value after the deed? I don't think so. - 0:59:43 on 5 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->PAPASAM..have you studied any books on sociopathy? Do you understand it? There is no cure for it, and yes, the person would serve humanity better by being hospitalized. There are those that do anything they can to lead a "normal" life, thus giving them over to science. Why is such progress being made with drugs for HIV carriers? Because people with that virus are willing to be used for experimentation. Why are heart transplants common nowadays? Because people with bad hearts are willing to try a new heart, even if it doesn't work. If a sociopath can be studied in a clinical setting (I am not talking about having electrodes tied to the head, penis, or whatever), but by their usual actions, would it not be possible that one day scientists can find the cause for that condition? As far as my child being raped, no, I don't consider that a capital crime. It would be a terrible thing to happen, but I do not think it should be punishable by death. And I can honestly say that my child would rather kill herself than have someone lose their life for a crime committed against her. Her majors at a tender age are psychology, law, and sociology, and so she has an understanding also of what makes a person tick. - 1:12:42 on 5 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->CARL (for tomorrow) - I don't think Manson was railroaded, and I have great respect for Vincent Belugosi. He writes great books about his cases! - 1:14:33 on 5 Feb 98 GMT

Adam I'LL TAKE MANHATTAN--->:Ron, as you might expect re: your New York comment, F**K YOU, MUTHAHF**KAH!!! - 2:51:58 on 5 Feb 98 GMT

Adam BLUE JOSÉ AWAY!!!--->:Speaking of potential murderers: Canseco. How are the handgun laws in Tronna', eh? BBQ, the Red Sox have "lost' my online order of nearly a month ago and placed a road trip of people from at least 3 states in jeopardy. My brother already has a fligt from Texas and a hotel in Kenmore square booked. The ticket manager asked my to write a letter detailing the events of the mishap. If they do not rectify the situation, the Sox immediately will cease being my team in the AL East. That leaves the door wide open to...you guessed it....the DEVIL RAYS. Speaking of the devil, the Jeses v. Dark One // cartman's birthday episode of SOUTH PARK is starting RIGHT NOW!!! Obviously, I won't make it home in time. Thank goodness for the 1:00 rebroadcast!! I'll ruin all the good parts for you'se Canucks what can't see it until Friday the 13th. Oh, the agony! - 3:03:23 on 5 Feb 98 GMT

Adam ERRATA--->:Apologies for several type-O negatives above, especially "Jeses" and not capitalizing Cartman, the most beloved charater on tele-vizzhen today. Sweet! - 3:07:07 on 5 Feb 98 GMT

Adam DEATH BECOMES THEM ALL---->:For the life of me, so to speak, I do not understand why the death penalty is not available for ALL INTENTIONAL VIOLENT FELONIES. Not that it would be imposed for all such crimes, but that it would be an option for prosecutors to pursue under appropriate circumstances. - 3:13:35 on 5 Feb 98 GMT

PapaSam:JOETTE. I stick to my opinion. You are entitled to your opinion but I do not respect it. You still haven't answered one question. Would you kill to prevent being raped or to prevent your daughter from being raped? I don't know3 how old she is, but if she were able to make a choice would she kill to prevent being raped? Would either of you kill to prevent a child from being raped? i hope you never have to make that choice. I have never studied any text books on sociopaths. I don't need any medical or psychological studies to guide my actions. I think rape is the most heinous of crimes and any rapist should be put to death. Calling him a sociopath does not lessen the crime or provide a psychological excuse for his actions. When a mad dog roams the streets all efforts are made to catch it and destroy it. A rapist is to me the human equivalent of a mad dog. - 5:04:07 on 5 Feb 98 GMT

PapaSam:JOETTE. Let me go off on a tangent for a while. Would you kill to prevent someone from taking your life, or that of your daughter? Would self defense be justification, in your mind, for killing someome? I am really looking forward to your answers to this and to the questions on my last post. - 5:16:01 on 5 Feb 98 GMT

PASSING THROUGH:PapaSam Hi. there are upwards of 1.7 million incaserated fellons in US jails. Every year the most unsavoury 10% should be executed. Who was it who said "Kill one, teach 1000"? - 10:14:38 on 5 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->PAPASAM...nor do I respect your opinion. Your saying that you haven't studied any books and such shows that you let your emotions guide you. That line sounded very similar to what theists have often said such as "I don't have to read books on evolution because I know God created man." No, I would not kill someone. I would defend myself or my daughter to the best of my ability, but that's it. Your comparing a person to a mad dog is offensive. - 11:16:59 on 5 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->ADAM..I agree. The death penalty should be AVAILABLE for all INTENTIONAL felonies. - 11:18:45 on 5 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->PASSING THROUGH..and it's been made abundantly clear that the death penalty is not a deterrant. - 11:25:45 on 5 Feb 98 GMT

Steven:JOETTE<<>> i believe that it is a human instinct to kill. In some it is stronger than others, and in some they cannot control it at all. I believe that if someone is sociopathic, then they need to be in a hospital. - 13:22:44 on 5 Feb 98 GMT

RON...--->Joette...: Oh please let me relieve you of this burden...a sociopath like Bundy? Shoot the bastard! If a person is found to have a mental problem that can\could harm the general public, lock them up. We don't allow Tigers to run loose in our streets do we? Why should we allow an equally violent animal to roam our neighborhoods? And I would like to add, if the Death Penalty were carried out years sooner, it would be a deterant. - 13:54:13 on 5 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->STEVEN..thanks, we're on the same page on this one. - 13:55:35 on 5 Feb 98 GMT

RON...--->Adam, sweetheart...: Don't pull any motherfucking punches with me. FUCK New York, it's full of urine and arrogant assholes. I wouldn't whipe my ass with New York. I wouldn't fuck a woman from New York wearing 2 condoms. Adam, have a nice day. :) - 13:57:35 on 5 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->RON..I agree. Lock them up, but put them somewhere that they can enhance medical knowledge. What good are they to anyone if they are rotting in a federal prison? Ron, please remember that I am talking about persons who do not have the capacity to control their violent tendencies. - 13:58:16 on 5 Feb 98 GMT

Grant:JOETTE-- I'm surprised to see the emotionalism here regarding the death penalty. We complain (rightfully so) when xtians try to impose their beliefs on us, but seem pretty eager to impose our beliefs on others by killing them. Maybe we're not so different after all, we just wear a different bow tie. In my view a criminal justice system's purpose should be to protect society from persons unwilling or unable to play by the rules. Whatever methods chosen should reflect this end. There is no place for revenge. For one thing, who gets to say what revenge is appropriate and on what basis? - 14:07:34 on 5 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->GRANT..there are those here that would think that the bow tie I wear is a very liberal red (that's the colour of our Liberal party here). I too think that the justice system's main goal is to serve and protect society at large. I just know that if I were on a jury I could not seek the death penalty. Sorry guys, but maybe I am a tad to humane for your liking. - 14:27:30 on 5 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->RON..yesterday Peter talked about how people of the same race also fight amongst themselves. Your post to Adam is a shining example of that. I can't believe how territorial you are! - 14:28:58 on 5 Feb 98 GMT

Steven:JOETTE<<>> May I ask you a question? If someone were to rape and kill Peter, your husband. Would you not seek that persons death, regardless of the means necessary? - 14:59:06 on 5 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:JOETTE: The C.Manson\Bugalosi[sic] affair has since its beginning struck me as a story out of the dark ages, just an account of a witch hunt. Back then, however, "they" too thought justice was mete; but accounts of those times report that they used to think the insane were satan inspired, and wrote some really neat tales, untrue inaccurate but fun reading. - 15:39:12 on 5 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->STEVEN...Peter is a seperate person from me, and if someone were to rape and kill him, I would be too busy trying to collect the insurance than to worry about what happens to the perpetrator (just joking of course). No, I am not a vengeful person. Shit happens, but two wrongs don't make a right. - 16:49:33 on 5 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->CARL..I think that what sets the Manson episode apart from others is that it was the first real case where everyone in the world could sink their teeth into. Because of who was murdered, how they were murdered, and Belugosi being a media slut, more people followed the trial. Although there had been other horrific criminals, such as Richard Speck, Charles Whitman and even the "In Cold Blood" guys (their names escape me), while they did get some attention, there wasn't nearly as much published about them until old Chuck came along. He and his "family" represented what "the establishment" at the time was opposed to - sex, drugs and rock 'n roll, and so naturally they were held up as an example of all that was wrong with the pepsi generation of the time. Sorry if this is too long. - 16:54:21 on 5 Feb 98 GMT

Steven:JOETTE<<>> That is not the answer that I expected. Is that act of killing itself wrong. I do not think it is. I think religion had labeled it so. I you have to kill to feed your family, is it wrong? If you kill to defend yourself, is it wrong? I can tell from the way PETER responded to JAMES that he feels differently about this than you do. I think that alot of people may feel the way you do, until something occurs which affects them personally. In other words, most people never think of self defense etc.. until they are the victem. - 16:56:47 on 5 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:JOETTE: Lately, I've been pondering things along the lines of what makes for what might get said. Until I began the "Warfare..." reading writers like Behe while impressive, it was also apparent that he, as an example of they, were waging a contest of which I had seen read various and assorted other descriptions. Behe and maybe the likes of Gish too, wage the war of "what we believe" for the what "is". That phraseology itself out of the past war for sacriptural philology, and that is what I play with now regarding the Manson/Bugalosi thing. Lets set up a free charlie movement. - 17:41:17 on 5 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->STEVEN..maybe I just don't value my life or anyone else's as much as others do. Being the fatalistic, pessimistic sort, I take my lumps, and retaliate only with venemous oral or written attacks. - 18:24:24 on 5 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->STEVEN..again, I would like to emphasize that Peter and I are two, distinct personalities. He may feel differently about this matter than I do, but I would expect that from someone other than myself. I would appreciate it very much if everyone on this page would please stop bringing up the fact that Peter and I are married, (Carl, were you aware of this?), not only because we think differently on many issues, but also that we post from separate places, and are no different than anyone else here. I do not mention anyone else's spouses opinions when conversing with someone, and I would expect the same courtesy from y'all. - 18:28:46 on 5 Feb 98 GMT

Steven:JOETTE<<>> it seems that the death penalty issue stirred up the anthill. - 18:29:27 on 5 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:JOETTE: I thot you were an ebony lesbian. - 18:34:24 on 5 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->CARL..maybe I am! - 18:35:30 on 5 Feb 98 GMT

Steven:JOETTE<<>> the only reason I brought up PETER at all was to make a point. It would be no different if I used CARL, or JAY, or whomever. The only difference is that I know PETER is your husband. If PETER didn't post on this chat zone I would have said "your husband" instead of PETER. It is no different from when i am debating something and I bring up my wife as an intrical part of the point. My wife and I think differently on many subjects, but if I am talking about something that hits home personally, like rape or murder, then I use my wife in the example to explain how I would feel if it was my wife that was raped or murdered. Should I, in the future, simply say; "JOETTE if it was your husband that was raped or killed would you feel the same?", would this help any? I did mean to infer anything. - 18:38:04 on 5 Feb 98 GMT

Steven:did NOT mean to infer anything. Jeez louis with cheese - 18:39:47 on 5 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:JOETTE: As Posted before I like the way your mind works, its still so. - 18:44:30 on 5 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->STEVEN...you are going to think I am an idiot, but I do not like the words husband or wife. I do not refer to Peter as my husband, and he does not refer to me as his wife, as those words connotate ownership. I would prefer not to have any mentioned in posts referred to me other than myself. Aren't I the bitch? - 18:45:25 on 5 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->CARL..but seriously folks, Charlie should not be freed (he belongs in a hospital), but it would be nice if the prison where he is housed stop putting him on display for local tourists. - 18:48:47 on 5 Feb 98 GMT

PapaSam:JOETTE. Before I get to my debate on the Death penalty going i woul like to point out your inconsistency in your post to Adam - that the death penalty should be available for all intentional felonies. First it seems to contradict your opinion on the death penalty, secondly, ALL felonies? Even for stealing a car or picking someone's pocket of a large sum of money? Did you really post that or was someone using your name? - 19:16:11 on 5 Feb 98 GMT

Steven:JOETTE<<>> as you will...... I will not bring up PETER in my posts to you. - 19:37:11 on 5 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:ANY: I'd not seen the phrase referring religious-belief statement of "what we believe" as something relevant to what "is", although that is the thing that I- for one, haven't been comfortable with, when it turns that is all a religious-believers means to say- of all matters. I found that phrase seemed to fit very well what creationist science types want to stop at in their desire to have the final word, the final say-so. It looks like we may have found an early version of the "Power of the Myth" book. A.White begins to say some very similar stuff. - 19:38:44 on 5 Feb 98 GMT

PapaSam:JOETTE. You say you would defend yourself to the best of your ability. If the only way to prevent your being raped was to kill, would you do so? You place a great deal of emphasis on books. and seem proud of your second hand knowledge accrued from self proclaimed experts. You equate me to a theist who doesn't need to read a book because he "knows" god exists. Most of your theists do read - albeit their "holy" book. Some may be theists because of their own reasoning. My atheist point of view is based on my own reasoning, not on any other person's. My opinion on the death penalty is based on logic, not emotion. We destrou mad dogs, we use antibiotics to kill harmful bacteria which invade our bodies, We excise malignant growths when we can. By the same token we should excise the cancers in our society. People who rape are such cancers and should be eliminated. I believe we should do this with the dath penalty. I have heard the argument that the death penalty is not a deterrent. The primary purpose of criminal justice is punishment. The idea that jail time is a better deterrent than the death penalty is an unprovable theory, unless you check the recidivism rates. I'm sure you will find the death penalty has a better result! - 19:49:29 on 5 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:JOETTE: Because children may be present, to your (query) the ans.is "no" and the rest o'my quick ans.was in jest. - 20:02:54 on 5 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:JOETTE: Because children may be present, to your (query) the ans.is "no" and the rest o'my quick ans.was in jest. I was gonna make it fun to read, but as you say- u mite b. - 20:03:50 on 5 Feb 98 GMT

PapaSam:JOETTE. You state that comparing a human with a dog is offensive to you. Now that is an opinion I would have expected from a holy roller. I am an animal. You are an animal. Your daughter is an animal. Period. Not vegetables or minerals, but animals. I will violate my rule about quotes by this verse from Kipling: "When the Himalayan peasant meets the he bear in his pride, He will shout to scare the monster, who will often turn aside, But the she bear thus accosted rends the peasant tooth and nail, For the female of the species is more deadly than the male." Is your physical integrity so worthless to you that you feel that you would submit to a rapist rather than kill him if you were able to do so? It seems that in doing so you are subconsciously buying the holy roller view. "Women are inferior, and are subject to the desires of men. I am only fit to be a vessel for the desires of men. That's the price of being a woman." You ought to be ashaamed of yourself for your masochistic point of view. - 20:07:46 on 5 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->CARL..I knew that! But you'll never know if my response was also in jest! - 20:09:51 on 5 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->PAPASAM...intentional felonies are different than those committed by sociopaths. If you knew anything about the subject, you know that. But hey, you think because you've lived a long time, and that your own garbled logic is the only true logic, I shall not discuss this issue with you. You state that my information is secondhand; well, would that not be the case with you as well, or do you just sit in a room and ponder life, and have you always done just that, with no outside influence to help you form your opinions, which we all know, are facts once you deem them to be. Sam, ad hominem on the way...ever since you have come here, you have been argumentative. I give you the subject of Metal Storm, which was the very first thing that you disagreed with. Although the rest of us had heard of it, that there was information on the net about it, that they were showing clips on TV etc., you still insisted that I shouldn't believe everything I read. I let that go, but have watched you more than talked with you, because I have noticed that you are always right, whether you are or not. There is one thing being skeptical, there is another being downright ornery. Why don't you read a few books instead of arguing all the time? - 20:15:56 on 5 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->PAPASAM..the only shame I feel is for someone as uneducated as you. You obviously missed the boat somewhere along the line. - 20:18:26 on 5 Feb 98 GMT

Steven:JOETTE<<>> I hope something bad didn't happen. You seem kind of on the edge today. - 20:41:59 on 5 Feb 98 GMT

Meghan:ALL-- thought you might like a good laugh. If I hadn't seen it with my own eyes, I wouldn't have believed it. I found this in the Jan/Feb 98 issue of Biblical Archaeology Review. If you've never heard of it (I hadn't until I found it in a waiting room) it's a magazine that writes about archaeological and historical finds which "shed light on the bible." The following is a letter to the editor, which the editor evidently felt worth printing, but not responding to: GOD WILL NOT BE MOCKED In the Strata story "The First Artists" (September/October 1997) you claim that a figurine is 250,000 years old. Dates like these are the figment of your imagination. Unbiased scientists have established that the world cannot be more than some 10,000 years old, which agrees reasonably well with the Bible. Evolutionists have no facts to support their ramblings. They claim to be scientific, but evolution is a religion. There is no science there. Stop reporting dreams as fact. On page 62 of the same issue, you state that "We might answer [wether God created the world in six days] 'no.'" You seem to be intent on trying to discredit the Bible. Shape up! God will not be mocked! Paul A Bennet St. Johns, Michigan -- still have trouble believing it's for real. - 21:02:33 on 5 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:--STEVEN...not at all; I just don't suffer fools gladly is all. And for anyone interested, I have had the auspicious pleasure of looking down the barrel of a shotgun a time or two, and am still here. - 21:03:56 on 5 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->MEGHAN..it was good for a laugh; especially the "unbiased scientists". - 21:06:32 on 5 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:MEGHAN: These individuals are in ear-shot of my office, they discuss jc as if that myth will appear as their 'heart' so desires. I had one such individual tell me that 'nobody knows anything about the skys' I'm pretty sure the word said could just as well have been firmament. This is 1998 for some, but for others others well... - 21:20:43 on 5 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->MARLENE/ADAM/RON/ROB/GRANT/STEVEN---I have forwarded an e-mail to you about a virus. I don't know if it is for real or not, but if you get a long letter tonight, it's only that. Carl, sorry, I don't know your address to send you such excitement. - 21:31:47 on 5 Feb 98 GMT

Meghan:I think the thing which most surprised me about it was not the BELIEFS of the individual writing the letter-- I know some people think creation is the real deal. (I don't, but hey, I could be wrong.) What surprised me was first that this person was reading this journal, and secondly that he thought they would take his comments seriously. While it's not exactly a scientific journal, since it's written for non-archaeologists, it is a cut above what you usually find in magazines. I thought it was pretty interesting-- but I got to that letter and read it like four times wondering if it was some kind of joke... my favorite is the part about evolution being a religion... :) and Carl, I know what you mean. I have no problem with what other people believe, but when I went into the ladies's room at 8 am Monday morning and there were two women in there talking fervently about the Devil, I wished I could hold it so I didn't have to hear it... Would have loved to hear their reaction if I'd been in there ranting about MY religious beliefs. - 21:31:58 on 5 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene:AH KARUMBA! Tees page is ot! JOETTE- Thankyou for the warning! Even if it isn't real it's better to be safe than sorry! Hoooold on their Babalouis, I never combine you and Peter as one and the same person. I'm sure that you didn't mean me anyway but just in case. Jim and I don't call each other husband or wife either (at least he doesn't in front of me lol). Partner is the word and proper description of our relationship. I fully agree with you on the death penalty issue. - 21:52:26 on 5 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene..ho-hum:MEGHAN- I've been in the same situation, then on top of it they tried to include me in their conversation. When I told them that their god and their devil were fairytales IMO, they looked at me as if I were Stan himself. Sometimes it's a lonely plight being atheist.... - 22:01:38 on 5 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene..has a lot of IMO's:GRANT- Your post was very well worded. I think you've got a humane grip on the issue at hand. Not only that but a responsible one, IMO. - 22:04:45 on 5 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->MARLENE..finally you are back. I was getting worried. Your house must be ready for the cover of House & Garden by now. - 22:11:32 on 5 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->MEGHAN..your anecdote about the washroom is yet another example of how certain beliefs are allowed to intrude on our everyday lives. There isn't a day go by that we are not inundated with religious messages, references to religion in conversation and the like. If I had my druthers, I would put theists outside with the smokers! - 22:14:38 on 5 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene:PAPASAM- While I'm handing out IMOs, I like to answer the question you asked Joette. I do not believe that the death penalty is humane, I do not believe that killing is humane and I do not believe in the old "eye for an eye" because it facilitates revenge. I love my life, if someone were to try to kill me and there were no other reasonable means of escape from the situation, I would kill them before they killed me. It would be the same if someone else were with me and the offender were trying to kill them. I'd do this to try to SAVE my life or another innocent party's life. If someone killed my daughter, son or partner, no matter how violent the murder, the damage is already done. To kill the offender at this point would have no purpose but revenge. As Joette mentioned, two wrongs don't make a right. Yes, my killing the offender when in a position of either kill or die, I still admit it isn't humane of me to do so but then again it's a whole other ball game than "after the fact". - 22:15:18 on 5 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:MARLENE: While readin'I ran into some exorcisms. The author said these were family friendly enough that he included them to illustrate his point. Anyway, with a rush of curiousity, I shared the passages with a god/jc type who sat listening very intently. I ask- what do you think, and this individual asks, "didn't you feel the force and power in the words as you read them?" I didn't add what I've come to know of simple phonetics as it pertains to spoken written words, I was too amazed. The person, I think, took them to be meaningful! - 22:17:52 on 5 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- Not really but it doesn't look like Select Auto Parts anymore, lol! Actually I've been out a lot lately. I must have cabin fever. It seems to hit me around this time each year. - 22:21:53 on 5 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene:CARL- Which side of the brain is it that involves imagination? Anyway, one wonder if these sorts have an enlargement of the imaginary gland. It seems that many can't accept the world we live on and the universe as it is. For some reason they need to apply "sentimental meanings" to physical matter. Now, you really don't think old Charlie should be freed do you? I often wonder when I see him talking on a show or read some of the things he says, is he really making fun of society as a whole? He's not a dummy but he is obviously sociopathic. He does seem to have this "charm" about him (another trait many sociopaths possess). - 22:35:04 on 5 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene..psy 101:Now a few words on sociopaths. Mental illness is a subject I am interested in and I have read a lot on it. I think many people believe that sociopaths are mentally ill in the sense they can be "cured" or their tendencies can be controlled with medications. The reality is, it's a disorder. It can't be cured and the only way it can be controlled is with rather harsh deterents. Sociopaths may have been helped along with their disorder at home but then again there are many sociopaths that are raised in loving and caring families. More and more evidence shows that the cause is likely physical just as homosexuality is showing more and more evidence that attraction to same sex has physical origin. Sociopaths lack empathy, period. The only way they can learn to control their unacceptable behavior in society is to be punished. They need to feel some kind of emotional and sometimes physical pain to themselves to deter further acts against society. Sometimes even this is not enough. They feel no guilt and are only able to take love but not give. They do know what society deems right or wrong but they lack the empathy to understand why. - 22:47:16 on 5 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->MARLENE..you be funny today, mon! Select Auto Parts..hahahaha. As far as Charlie goes, if he has charm, he must reserve it for snakes. I think he is mocking society. - 22:50:46 on 5 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene:STEVEN and RON- I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on the issue of the death penalty. BUT..think about this. Both of you are parents or soon to be parents. You can say, "my kid would never hurt anyone" but in reality you don't "know" this as as much as we'd like to think that our kids are extentions of ourselves, in reality they are their own individual self with individual thoughts. Now say the kid was at a party and someone was killed and your kid became the suspect. Say he was convicted of murder and sentenced to death. Whether he is truly guilty or not guilty isn't the issue really, the issue is that he'll die. Do you truly think your child deserves to die, even if he's guilty? - 22:57:19 on 5 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- Now just the back yard look like a hackshop. I must say, I'm fascinated by ole Charlie. I think you can compare my fascination to that of Jodie's (whatever her name is)to Hannibal the Cannibal in Silence of the Lambs. Like you say, it's like the fascination with snakes. Neat to look at but don't touch them! Kind of reminds me of that song about the woman bringing in that poor half-frozen snake. - 23:04:23 on 5 Feb 98 GMT

James--->Steven:It is you who cannot live with the facts and you who should shut the *#$% up. I live with the facts everyday. You are the one complaining about them. I only have one truck…must we go there again? My house isn't that expensive, but I did design and general contract its construction myself. I saved lots of money doing the things I've done all my life. I put a lot of hard work into the place and I am proud of my efforts. No racist….PLEASE…you do live in a fantasy world don't you. Did you get that from the same book of fantasy the theist often refer too? As for my point regarding thing being in the past. You are missing the point if you say my logic must apply to Charles Manson or the pick axe bitch. Manson and the bitch are still apart of the present. Hell, the bitch just got her due last night! Charlie SHOULD be put away immediately! Custard is dead, George Washington is dead, all of them are dead. Get it? My poor little me complex? You're the shit who can't stop whining about how bad "your" people had it! "I will never leave this country jerk. If you don't like something you change it, not leave it " Yea, that's pretty much what my forefathers said. Now look where we are. Keep the faith brother. - 1:12:34 on 6 Feb 98 GMT

Adam VIOLENCE is GOLDEN--->:Lethal In-Joette-shion: Before you agree with me, make sure you include the word VIOLENT; you wouldn't want to execute, say, all intentional imbezzlers, right? - 1:26:12 on 6 Feb 98 GMT

Adam CARTMAN LOVES NY-->:Ron Away, Ron Away!---> You're jes' jealoush, 'cuz New Yahk'sh sho buff! Ah'll bet New Yahk can keeck your shity's assch! - 1:31:15 on 6 Feb 98 GMT

Adam REVENGE is PREETY SHWEET!--->:Grant Clemency: I would like to distinguish revenge from retribution. I think that a society has every right to set minimum standard to assure its survival and that of its members. Your analogy to theists is flawed--when a criminal is punished, the society is not imposing a set of beliefs, but rather enforcing a code of minimally acceptable conduct. For this reason, any number of laws punishing thought, such as those preventing membership in the Klan, have been struck down on First Amendment grounds. In fact, if the hammerlock of political correctness could be shaken, we all would agree that "hate crime" statutes, which make the same offense carry greater punishment based on the motive of the perp, are unconstitutional. Deterrence notwithstanding, the mere act of retributive punishment for violating the laws society has deemed essential to its self-preservation, and which are the product of democratic systems--as opposed to "moral codes" that came about because some watery tart threw a sword at you--are eminently justifiable. - 1:43:44 on 6 Feb 98 GMT

Adam MARLENE in the THIRD DEGREE--->:Marlene: Your example to Steve-a-Ronny may be flawed. I assume that in the party scenario, you are talking about a fight breaking out, culminating in a homicide. At most this would be Murder 2, and more likely, manslaughter 1, depending on the facts and jurisdiction. Unfortunately, common-law jurisdictions never impose death for such crimes (I say "unfortunately" with regard to "never"). At any rate, you may very well not someone close to you put to death even if he or she committed a capital offense, and that is why the law must be a detached, emotionless arbiter of the fate of the perp, and any judge or prosecutor related in even the remotest way to parties in the case must opt for recusal. - 1:56:45 on 6 Feb 98 GMT

Adam BRULÉE? TOUCHÉ!!--->:James: How can you be sure Custard is dead? I guess the proof is in the pudding. Besides, would not a violent death be his just dessert? I understand that he wasn't such a good egg, and in the end, he got beat, whipped and only then cooled down. In fact, he got creamed! Somebody s-topping me! - 2:02:46 on 6 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->ADAM..given the tone of the page these days, I would think that there are those among us who would like to see embezzlers fry, especially if they were the victim of the embezzlement. Who told you I cheated on my taxes? I gladly lay down my life for Revenue Canada! - 2:04:55 on 6 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene :ADAM- Surely all that is needed to keep a offender from re-offending if he/she is not capable of living in the general society with out doing so would be to keep them away from society. Why would they need to be killed? The fact that some laws allow the death penalty doesn't make it a humane punishment. Your death penalty in the US is barbaric to some of us da nort. Maybe poor example but then again the kid could have right out shoot someone at the party for something to do. I'm sure that would be first degree, non? No matter, IMO, it's still barbaric. - 4:20:01 on 6 Feb 98 GMT

PapaSam:JOETTE. Temper, temper! I am argumentative. I enjoy it. Don't you? When I'm wrong I admit it. I don't refute facts. (Ref. Metal Storm) It doesn't happen too often. (See, I'm also an egotist!) What you and I have is a difference of opinion. I have stated some unpleasant facts which seem to have disturbed tou, such as comparing humans to dogs and saying you and I were animals. You did not however, refute my arguments. Would you let a mad dog roam the streets? Wouldn't you have a malignant growth removed? I am confident you are in agreement with me on the answers. When I say that the sociopath is as deserving of the death penalty as any other criminal, assuming the death penalty is justified for a particular crime, you disagree with me. That's your privilege> My sympathy is solely for the victim The fact that the sociopath, as Marlene rightly points out, may be such because of physiological problems does not matter to me. The victim is just as raped or dead. The punishment should be tailored to the crime. Some time ago I saw a TV special with some jailed pervert who had been convicted for murderIt showed him smirking in his cell with a fellow inmate waving a pair of pink panties. Do you feel that this is punishment? Color TV, three good meals a day and all the perverted sex he wants. Meanwhile hard working people at or below the poverty level cannot feed their families. Charlie Manson and his 'family' also occasionally show up on TV. The tattood wonders didn't look unhappy to me. The bodies of their victims, including a pregnant woman who were butchered by them have long since fed the worms, but those vile monsters are still around. It's revolting. Are they ordinary murders or sociopaths? What difference does it make? - 5:05:13 on 6 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene..:PAPASAM- Speaking of egotist, I was listening to a talk show tonight on the radio. The subject was Oprah Winfry(sp) and the mad cow disease thing. BTW, I can't stand the woman, to me she and Dr. Laura may as well run an evangalist show rather than talk shows, anyway, this guy called in and said "Oprah Windfield" and the host said to him "No sir, it's not Oprah Windfield it Oprah Winfrey" and the guy says " I did say Oprah Winfrey, it must be some type of interference with the radio station". I agree that jail is just too cushey for convicts but this doesn't mean one has to kill them, does it? I totally agree that jail should be without special privileges. I say, hard work and long hours of it, basic food and lots of victim awareness. Yes, it pisses me off to see people with no remorse and yes they belong away from the rest of society but we are talking another human here. Because he/she is a scum, they should die? What type of example is this to children? Killing is okay if one kills a bad guy? What empathy does this teach children? Some murders are sociopaths, in fact likely ,many of them. Their disorder doesn't excuse them of their crime as they know it is wrong to kill. No one is saying excuse them, all I'm saying is why kill them? And is killing them a humane and in today's standard morally right? I don't think so. - 5:39:18 on 6 Feb 98 GMT

PapaSam:JOETTE. Now that you have "ad hominem" d me to death and have renounced all further communication with me, I will tell you a few things. I have read a few books in my day, including "The Story of Philosophy" by Will and Ariel Durant, some Schopenhauer, Nietzche, Hegel, Spinoza and a few others. I found the Durants' work interesting some of the others mildly so and a good deal of it wordy and boring, and a great amount of it highly repetitive. How did you find them? I currently subscribe to the following: Science News Weekly, Smithsonian, Natural History, Civilization, National Geographic, Utne Reader, Mother Jones, Harpers, Skeptical Inquirer, Free Inquiry, Story and the Washingon Spectator. I also read my daily paper, Newsday, seven days a week. I realize that age does not bring wisdom. Neither does middle age. I'll bet my diploma, cum laude and all on that. So don't be ashamed for ME Joette. Go dig into one of your books to answer my questions. - 5:44:37 on 6 Feb 98 GMT

Grant:ADAM ON THE ALERT-- I agree with you that "when a criminal is punished, the society is not imposing a set of beliefs, but rather enforcing a code of minimally acceptable conduct" at least ideally. I think that society is justified in using retribution, even the death penalty when necessary to assure it's survival and that of it's members. I also agree that this is not the same as revenge. I think that most professionals involved in the U.S. criminal justice system probably understand this, but the public in general probably doesn't. My analogy is sloppy, but I was referring to posters here rather than the criminal justice system. For example, PapaSam, as I read it, says that all murderers and rapists should be put to death regardless of mental illness or other considerations. He is willing to impose this belief on others at least to the extent of "pulling the plug" (switch?) himself. --- Salute. - 7:14:40 on 6 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->PAPASA...I seem to be your new target now that the theists have left for parts unknown. Is this lofty new position due to the fact that I had the audacity to criticize your beloved prayer? Yesterday you mentioned that I seem to put a lot of importance on books. Please rethink that, as I myself have mentioned only one or two books the entire time I have been posting here. You must have me confused with someone else. You are using your tired "Now answer my questions" so yes, I have read most of the authors you listed, and many, many more. I usually don't quote anyone, bar Yogi Berra and Casey Stengle, and Woody Allen once or twice (oops, sorry, there was that Dorothy Parker quote as well). So, I don't know where your assertion that I spout second hand knowledge from "self-procaimed experts" comes from. Go back a few thousand posts and read what I have to say, and you will see that you are mistaken. Whether you like to argue is of no consequence. There is debate, and then there are personal attacks. I was on the receiving end of two yesterday, which is no problem for me, but I realized that you only look for things in posts to fight about, and it grows tired. It was you that stated that you don't need to read books to form you opinions, and I called you on it, because it is one of the silliest things I have yet to read on this page. You must be something special, getting all your knowledge through osmosis. - 11:39:16 on 6 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:--SAM...I noticed too that you had to somehow get another dig in, re your reference to middle age. Since I am well less than half your age, I have yet to reach middle age. And since you seem to believe that I am a silly woman, just designed as a vessel for a man, I will act as such, and tell you to keep any references to my age out of the discussion. - 11:46:14 on 6 Feb 98 GMT

Steven:JAMES<<>> no mas. Your posts have no substance. - 13:12:49 on 6 Feb 98 GMT

Steven:MARLENE<<>> if it was my son that was convicted of murder, what would I have to say? I have put a lot of thought into this and I believe that if he did indeed commit the crime then he should pay with his life. If a person takes it upon themselves to take an innocent life, then they deserve for their life to be taken. There are many professions in which a person that is inclined toward being a killer could spend his/her energy (i.e. military, CIA, DEA, FBI and lets don't forget your local police). All of these agencies are looking for competent killers/murderers. Anyway, on a more serious note, I believe that anyone that takes an innocent life should pay with their own. - 13:36:36 on 6 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:ANY: I have not seen reliable independently researched data that supports the claim that Saddam has any of those terrible weapons BC regularly refers to during his press reports. I am of the opinion BC just needs to kill someone. Nothing tells history any better who is in charge than to kill a few people. This thought hit me reading JAMES post referring to acts and 'words' of his forefathers. They were in charge all history shows what they did, German were in charge history shows what they did, religion was in charge history shows what they did, common to all they "Killed". BC is probably reveling in the sex related attention he's gettin- that means he gets that too, so now he has gotta kill some people, friends and history will make it ok, except for the dead. - 16:16:46 on 6 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene:CARL- Propaganda, propaganda, propaganda, I think there may be a bit of fact but a whole lot of bullshit. As I mentioned before on the discussion, I have friends from the Middle East. They became friends because I wanted to learn another language and choose Arabic. I couldn't find a damn course on Arabic so I had to hunt down someone who knew Arabic. I was fortunate in the fact that I found a lady who's husband was attending university here. She was from Syria but was working in Kwait prior to coming to Canada as English news editor for Kwaiti TV. It never ceases to amaze me that when Iraq and Iran were at war that the US supported Iraq and, Saddam for that matter, fully. But now that Saudi Arabia and other countries basically run by emires(sp) are making a deal on oil with the US, Saddam is now an asshole. It really doesn't seem to matter to the US what assholes the Saudis are, like when they stone a woman to death for removing her vail etc..Anyway, I think you remember the big story here about Saddam unplugging incubators in Kwaiti hospitals, well my friend was working there at the time and no such thing happened at all. In fact, IMO, how many babies died when the US, along with other UN peacekeepers sic, bombed Bagdad knocking out their power source? - 16:54:37 on 6 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:MARLENE: When a student, I used to run into arab folks in class and after elsewhere, they would say that their countrys are capable of harvesting the goods and getting it out, but that the oily arabs commonly knew the USA wanted it. They the US wanted its people in the arab lands working the oil. Arabs aid no, and as you tell above, nowadays the USA leans one way or the other among the arabs. Have you found and read "The Ugly American", if no you ought to put atop your list of things to do today. There is also an American Journal published quarterly that givesup some unflattering accounts of the ongoings of the US gov't. It is a fun book to read thru. - 17:14:42 on 6 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->CARL/MARLENE...I think the U.S. just wants to take out Saddam because he is a blow to a collective ego. He has done well dodging those who are wanting his head on a stake. Why have a war? It was suggested to me the other day by someone more intelligent than myself that a good course of action should be for the U.S. to go in and occupy Iraq, as opposed to blowing it to smithereens. That way, the innocents would be looked after more humanely than their own government sees fit, the oil would still be there, instead of being burned like it was in Kuwait, and so on. This way, Saddam would have to come out of his bunker, and would probably go into exile, which would be good for everyone in the world. And, then a real hunt for these "weapons of mass destruction" could be tracked down once and for all. - 18:03:04 on 6 Feb 98 GMT

Steven:JOETTE<<>> you can not possible be serious. Ever heard of Afghanistan, or Vietnam. Thats just what we need, more lives spent on bullshit like that. If the US would have left them alone in the first place they would not hate us like they do. But no, we have to secure our precious oil. Like I said before, it is all about business and money. Is it our business if sadam kills every civilian in his country? NO. Is it our business that North Korea wants to invade South Korea? NO. Why do Americans feel they must butt their fucking heads into everyones business. When the US was slaughtering Native Americans, did any other country step in? NO. Why is it that the US can do what it pleases, even in other countries back yards, and get away with it. But if another country gets in our business we get all offended. America is not the home of the brave, it is the home of the greedy. - 18:46:05 on 6 Feb 98 GMT

RON...--->Marlene...: If any of my children are ever convicted of a capital offense, they should die. - 18:47:07 on 6 Feb 98 GMT

RON...--->ADAM...:Oh, I forgot to add that New Yorkers can't spell worth shit and all the men there are gay. (smirk) - 18:52:20 on 6 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:OPEN: If there is one thing present amongst discussions of life and death and destruction, its usually the lack of experience of killing, the ending of somethings existence. BC the nearest thing he's been to that is dead is probably his meat dish at dinnertime. I have seen a steer shot in a pen by a .22, that was awesome. The most terrible death I've seen, the killing of a young pig. Three held it, one at each foreleg and a third held both hind legs. O'course the little Babe lookin'thing was squealin'and squealing. A fourth fella took a pistol put it to the back o'the pigs head and shot it. That thing that squealed and was trying to pull its legs free, was abosulutely nothing. It was that easy to kill, end the existence of a living thing. As you can tell, it too was an awesome thing for me to have seen. So, does BC really know what BC means to do? - 18:55:46 on 6 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene:CARL- I grew up on a farm and I can agree with you, killing isn't a pleasant thing. My uncle though was a humane person and killed with the least amount of pain as possible. I, being the oldest of the two children in the home had to help with all farm work as well as butchering. I know how it feels to kill and I find it very unpleasant. Your right, does BC know what it's like to kill another person? Unless, some of the posters here were in any of the wars, I would wager that none of them know what it feels like to kill a person either. I've been present while someone died of natural causes to. To see them alive one moment and totally gone the next isn't a good feeling either. JOETTE- The problem with occupation of Iraq would be the lack of support from the Iraqi people. Most hate the west and it's influence so as Steven pointed out, it would be another Vietnam. Most Iraqis support Saddam as the military government in that country is more desirable than an Emir run country where all monies goes to the Emir and the people end up with nothing. About the only people who resist Saddam's government are the Kurds (a people who Turkey also kills off BTW, not that I thnk it is right) and the muslims who are not sunni muslims. Otherwise he has great support and an occupation would be a disaster. STEVEN- I think you've nailed down the US motive, greed. STEVEN and RON- I can't believe that you would truly think that your children should die if convicted of murder..... - 19:20:01 on 6 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene:RON- I thought San Franciso and Houston were the gay capitals of the US of A, lol! - 19:25:33 on 6 Feb 98 GMT

Steven:MARLENE<<>> i think that Dallas is #2 as far as homosexual population. We have more rainbow coalition stickers here than anywhere. Anyway, my son I hope will be raised that to take someones life in any circumstance other than self defense (and a few other things) then he would be responsible for the consequences. If a person knows that by murdering an innocent he has the chance to lose his/her life, then that is a decision that they made knowing what can happen. - 19:43:08 on 6 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene:STEVEN- I believe almost all murderers are raised to believe it is wrong to kill. I think Joette raised the fact that the death penalty really isn't a deterent as some think it is. It may be interesting to note that countries who support the death penalty have more murders per capita than those countries which don't. - 20:01:01 on 6 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->STEVEN...it was just a suggestion (the occupation). I agree that your country interferes in all the problems of the world, and it is only for personal interest, not humanitarian. - 20:05:18 on 6 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:MARLENE: As I pondered the event, the utterly amasing thing was the alive one instant and then not alive the next. - 20:12:05 on 6 Feb 98 GMT

Steven:MARLENE<<>> don't be to quick. I think the lowest crime rate in the world is in Saudi. If you steal, and get got, off with the hand. If you commit adultry, death. If you commit murder, death. Hmmmmph. How about the crime rate in China? Are you sure about that statement, i.e. may be interesting to note that countries who support the death penalty have more murders per capita than those countries which don't. - 20:01:01 on 6 Feb 98 GMT I think the problem in America is that we teach our kids that life is cheap. They see 6 murders a day on T.V.. Our kids live in the most violent society that has ever existed. We basically condition them to have little value for life. I mean the majority of 'killers' in today's society are the young, 14-22. Kids that age do not have the knowledge to understand what life is actually worth. We have overpopulation and people wonder why the murder rate is up. We have a society which teaches that there is life after death, so who cares if you die. Beside, I don't think that the death penalty is meant as a deterent. I think it is a consequence of actions committed. - 20:16:35 on 6 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->STEVEN..your lost post came out skewed, as though two posts were put into one, so I don't know if I should be addressing you or some other person. I find the excuse that people commit crime because of what they see on TV, hear in music, or whatever is hogwash. Children have to be taught that what they see on television is "fantasy" (same as religion) and that it is not meant to be mixed up into real life. Anybody that uses this defence is a coward, whether they be adults or parents of kids committing crimes. For the latter, I place the blame squarely on the guardians. - 20:43:03 on 6 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:JOETTE: that is the spot, it is the guardians, natural or adoptive. - 21:03:46 on 6 Feb 98 GMT

Steven:JOETTE<<>> I am not blameing TV. What I am saying is that kids are conditioned to have a low regard for life. They play guns from age 2 up. They see thousands of murders every day, on adult tv programs and in cartoons. Is there a reason that so much violence and death are shown? Because humans flock to violence like fly's on shit. What happens when you are driving down the highway and there is a wreck, every fuckwit on the road has to slow to about 2 miles per hour and check out the carnage. And if there is a death, or any blood, they slow down to 1 mph. Tv is just one stimulus which causes this. Why are kids so facinated with guns, horror movies, gi joe, etc? You have a problem with the death penalty, but then on the other hand get upset when someone mentions TV etc... as mabey being one of the primary causes for so much violence. I am not sure I understand? - 21:10:40 on 6 Feb 98 GMT

Steven:JOETTE<<>> I am hopeing that you were not indicating that I am a coward. It has been nothing but enjoyable speaking with you in the past. - 21:21:04 on 6 Feb 98 GMT

Steven:JOETTE<<>> I would never agree to censoring anything. I can remember when my mother thought that I was worshiping the devil because I played AD&D. I remember when Ozzy Osborne was said to be responsible for teenage suicide, it is all bullshit. You cannot argue with the fact that our kids are brought these days with more knowledge by the age of 10 than we had by 20. These kids play video games in which they practice blowing away people. The kids of today will be much better at killing than our generation ever thought to be. Mixed in with christianity, are we creating monsters? - 21:25:19 on 6 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene:STEVEN- I do agree, TV does desensitise kids to death and violence. In fact there seems to be no difference between the bad guy and the good guy anymore. The good guy uses violence to conquer the bad guy. As you say, guns, martial arts, etc. etc. are romancitized(sp) also. I do agree that countries like Saudi Arabia and China do have really stiff penalties but then again, they are what you would call a democratic either. JOETTE- I disagree with "blaming" the parents. Most, maybe not all, but most parents do their best to teach their children the difference of right/wrong, fantasy/reality etc. I've had too many problems of my own with my two kids who have minds of their very own and decide to do things, absolutely opposite to what I tried to teach them to blame all parents. Yes, there are some parents that are very irresponsible and then blame should be placed, to an extent, with these parents but society as a whole has a big influence on how kids think. Society isn't a little village anymore but a big one with out the safety of small village morality. - 21:37:21 on 6 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:STEVE: In your posts of 20:16:35 an 21:10:40, what you inscribe should be recieved and clearly understood as it relates to the consequences that you have describe. Some at\now on this URL say humans are animals, so if what you inscribe of is the environment of these human pups/cubs/kittens/chicks/minnows or whatever they are, then as animals they as you seem to be saying, really have but the environment to relate to.***of course I know that is not what you mean, but if humans are animals that could be a tenable point. I must repeat, we humans are not animals. - 21:44:26 on 6 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene:STEVEN- I had to laugh about your example of a wreck and people's reaction to it. Your right on and it's also disgusting IMO. - 21:46:32 on 6 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene:CARL- I agree, we are a product of our enviroment just like any other domesticated animal. I still don't fully understand your position on "why we are not animals"? - 21:50:32 on 6 Feb 98 GMT

Steven:CARL<<>> everything that I have learned points to the fact that humans are mearly animals with an opposable thumb and an extra couple of layers of brain cells. This was something which I believe (I do not know) we evolved. I an ape an animal CARL? - 21:51:03 on 6 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:STEVE: In my carousing and study, as you may be concerned, I have encountered some people referred to as American Indians who say the names for their particular group meant "people" not some animal. So, on the other hand there are the xtians whose myths say humans have a mythological god-made connection. Then on the other hand are the zoologists that take the position humans are animals. Of the latter comes the harmful tenets of survival of the fittest, survival o'the strongest and so on. The god connection, it is simply false to facts, but actually both ideas are false to facts. True, bees and beavers make things ants and termites have society wolves and lions have organisation, but these things are the same as they were back to whenever. Choose any time. Humans can build have societies organisation and the human potentials allow a human or groups of humans to do or be many other ways. They are not static things as are the animals or gods. - 22:17:11 on 6 Feb 98 GMT

PapaSam:MARLENE. When we execute a killer or rapist we teach a child that these viscious crimes are are punishable by death and that the laws are there for their protection. The primary purpose of law is to punish, determent, while desirable is a secondary factor. It does not encourage a child to kill. As for teaching a child empathy, I hope the empathy will be directed to the victim, not the perpetrator. - 22:21:06 on 6 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene:CARL- There are somethings other than humans who can change to survive if the enviroment forces them to and those are viruses and bacteria. No brain, like ours but maybe stronger and more adaptable..? - 22:23:09 on 6 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene:PAPASAM- Just a question first about the death penalty in the US, are rapists also sentenced to death? Once again, does one need to kill a offender to protect society from them. By all means, I believe the laws should serve to protect society but why death of the offender? What purpose does it serve? If your grandchild asked you, "grandpa how come we kill someone who kills someone else but we don't kill someone who goes to war and kills someone else and if Joey down the street killed Rover who is something that I love and is one of my best friends, then is it okay for me to kill Joey because he killed one of my family members?" How would you answer him? - 22:30:10 on 6 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:MARLENE: Damn good! - 22:32:50 on 6 Feb 98 GMT

PapaSam:JOETTE. I thoought you liked my poem,except for my use of the words god and prayer. Let me state at the outset that I think that you are highly intelligent. I do not believe that women are designed to be vessels for me. " --Women would not be treated as unclean or second class citizens. They would walk hand in hand with men, different but equal, in a natural symbiosis." I will no longer mention age, though I would point out that you brought up the matter. - 22:39:18 on 6 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->STEVEN..you are probably gone for the weekend by now, but hopefully you will see this on Monday. Sure, children play video games nowadays (and so do some of us adults), they see violence on television, especially if they watch the news, but when I was a kid, we played cops and robbers, cowboys and Indians (sorry) and other outdoor games. In fact, the most popular trading cards were of the Civil War. The gorrier the more desirable. My first recollections of television were graphic pictures from Vietnam, and Bobby Kennedy being shot down. So, as long as there has been television, there has been an exposure to violence. Why then is it only recently that society has decided that violence on this medium is the result of a growing crime rate? I never once said you were a coward, but if you feel being exposed to television shows such as NYPD Blue, Homicide and the like is going to make you go out and kill someone, and you use that as your defence, then yes, it would be a cowardly thing to do. Speaking of cowardly, wasn't the Wizard of Oz about killing too? - 22:48:17 on 6 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->STEVEN..me again...you misunderstood my original post. I am not blaming television at all for causing violence. Quite the opposite. - 22:50:01 on 6 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:MARLENE: I think that on the other hand, however, that those mity mites survive and also that they will outlast humans as humans are today, do they do so intelligently, consciously? Elsewhere, I have seen in a Dawkins response that evolution is a scavenger, in either the consumption of or in the utilisation of some whatever, for the survival the continued existence of a conceptual life. Elsewhere, I seen various accounts that make conceptual seem to mean, choice. - 22:50:14 on 6 Feb 98 GMT

jaywilson--Corporal Punishment? Private Parts? Major Problem! (General Concern?)--:MARLENE: Rapists here are not routinely sentenced to death, but I support those who would like those sexually challenged persons rid of their damnable hormone-producing organs--in other words, neutered. Reproductive rights, my...As for killing Rover, your example is fraught with faulty innuendo (not to be confused with an Italian suppository)--is your local vet a serial killer? Next: Soldiers are--or should be-- prepared to die; if they live, good for them. And, we in the US do not kill murderers to protect society--just help rid it of its trash. - 22:53:27 on 6 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->PAPASAM..it was you that accused me of having the attitude of a woman who believes she is only a vessel for a man. While I enjoy romps in the hay, it is not my primary reason for being, as anyone who knows me would attest. Apology accepted. - 22:54:30 on 6 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->a Major Major observation...why is it that Marlene and I, both potential rape victims, seem to take that particular act less personally than you guys? (Marlene, I am not trying to speak for you. It is a nasty piece of work, but we both agree it shouldn't be punishable by death). A real Catch 22. - 22:57:31 on 6 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene..one two three...what are we fighting for..don't know and don't give a damn about the war in Vietnam:JAYWILSON- A study done on rapists (not skinners) showed that the rape is not done for sexual satisfaction but as an act of violence so neutering them whether it be chemical or an actual removal of the testicles would likely not prevent them from re-offending. In the case of skinners, I think that method amy have some benefit. As for Rover, no, actually the local vet is likened onto (like that biblical lingo?) Dr. Kavorkian(sp) but mean little Joey down the street pic-axed Rover to death. As for soldiers, good for the few soldiers that survived Vietnam but didn't change one damn thing! As for murderers, but people, no matter how immoral, aren't trash. - 23:09:24 on 6 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- Must be the teresterone (sp) LOL! - 23:13:16 on 6 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene..not vessel and not virgin either:JOETTE- I don't know, those romps may be one of the best things in life! - 23:17:31 on 6 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->MARLENE..what is a skinner????????? - 23:31:30 on 6 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->TO ALL OF THOSE GUN TOTING ROOTIN' TOOTIN' COWBOYS WHO THINK MAD DOGS (and possibly Englishmen?) SHOULD BE SHOT DOWN: good news for y'all. Run, don't walk, to your nearest travel agent, as I just saw a report that there are at least 200,000 (!) dogs running wild in the streets of Bucharest. As an added treat, Brigitte Bardot is there right now trying to get the local yokels to stop shooting them, but y'all know better, right! - 23:35:48 on 6 Feb 98 GMT

Joette...let the games begin!...:-->ADAM..our hockey team is going to kick your hockey team's assch! - 23:39:05 on 6 Feb 98 GMT

Joette...it figures..(you know, like in skating..):-->did anyone see Tonya Harding last night spouting her religious rhetoric. She knows that she is going to heaven, and that Jesus knows her. What an idiot! - 23:46:27 on 6 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- A skinner is someone who has committed a sexual crime against a child. Pedofile (sp) may not be the right word as some of them have not yet physically committed the crime. BTW, that's what they are known as in jails and since we are on the subject of to jail or to kill, I thought it appropriate. How's OZ? Don't you agree that it becomes more unnerving with each episode? That show really bothered me and caused me to be more aware of the dangers of liberalness inside the institutions. - 23:49:04 on 6 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- That's good that she's going to heaven, she can skate forever for jesus and be his sheep on ice. Someone likely told her that it was too hot for ice in Stan's abode. Oh how I'm sick, sick, sick of everyone becoming born-again and all the xtians welcoming them with open arms! Pukey! In the case of the pic-axe murderer, if she had converted to islam would she have had the sympathy of the xtian masses, I doubt it. - 23:55:17 on 6 Feb 98 GMT

James--->Steven:It is you who cannot live with the facts and you who should shut the *#$% up. I live with the facts everyday. You are the one complaining about them. I only have one truck…must we go there again? My house isn't that expensive, but I did design and general contract its construction myself. I saved lots of money doing the things I've done all my life. I put a lot of hard work into the place and I am proud of my efforts. No racist….PLEASE…you do live in a fantasy world don't you. Did you get that from the same book of fantasy the theist often refer too? As for my point regarding thing being in the past. You are missing the point if you say my logic must apply to Charles Manson or the pick axe bitch. Manson and the bitch are still apart of the present. Hell, the bitch just got her due last night! Charlie SHOULD be put away immediately! Custard is dead, George Washington is dead, all of them are dead. Get it? My poor little me complex? You're the shit who can't stop whining about how bad "your" people had it! "I will never leave this country jerk. If you don't like something you change it, not leave it " Yea, that's pretty much what my forefathers said. Now look where we are. Keep the faith brother. - 0:29:38 on 7 Feb 98 GMT

James--->Damn guys sorry about the double post:My browser flaked out its cache or something. - 0:44:26 on 7 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->MARLENE...re OZ..yes, it gets grittier every week. It is very disturbing, but I don't see much liberalness in it. I could never live in an environment like that! - 1:05:44 on 7 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- No, I don't mean that the prisoners themselves are liberal, I mean that letting the prisoners run their own show is liberal. Many of them in the OZ program belong away from other prisoners, not running the show in a self-contained unit such as OZ. - 1:21:56 on 7 Feb 98 GMT

Joette :-->MARLENE...I agree with that. I wonder if it is a realistic view of prison life? Anyone here every spent time in the pen? - 1:28:33 on 7 Feb 98 GMT

PapaSam:CARL. In a biological sense we are animals. We may be the the highest level in the animal kingdom, but we are animals nevertheless. Why do you find the term objectional? You say that survival ov the fittest is a 'tenet'. It is a fact. As Steven pointed out, our opposable thumbs and a little larger brain enabled us to adapt to our environment. We were the fittest in the animal kingdom. At one time the fittest were the strongest, now, depending on the circumstances, it could be the smartest or more cunning. The dolphin is supposed to have a larger brain than man, but considering its environment it hasn't done it much good. - 1:41:12 on 7 Feb 98 GMT

PapaSam:MARLENE, JOETTE. Well, since you are the potential victims, what do you think the penalty should be for rape? For raping a child? In the State of New Jersey, they passed a law known as Meghan's law. It requires that when a pedophile moves into a neighborhood the residents should be warned. The law was passed because a pedophile just released from prison raped and killed a child named Neghan. Many other states have passed similar laws. The problem in my mind is why he should have been let out at all. So tell me ladies, what should the penalty be for rape. - 1:55:54 on 7 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->SAM..we have the same law here too. As far as the penalty for rape, the courts have already decided it, so my opinion is moot. - 2:08:14 on 7 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->of no special interest...I don't know if any of you are watching the opening ceremonies of the Olympics, but these Japanese screamers are freaking out my cats! - 2:13:26 on 7 Feb 98 GMT

PapaSam:MARLENE, JOETTE. In times of war you cheer your soldiers on to kill the enemy. The individual soldiers in the enemy army may be composed of simple minded peasants or factory hands who have no idea what it is all about. They are just cannon fodder. Yet you cheer on our every victory, and rightfully so. Better them than your husbands or fathers or brothers or sons (and now daughters) Yet to take the life of a vicious criminal who has committed several murders bothers you. Why? - 2:16:00 on 7 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->SAM..I have never, and will never, cheer on any war victory, so I don't know where you get that idea from. The only military action I rejoice is when those that I know on peacekeeping missions make it home in one piece. - 3:01:47 on 7 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->SAM...one more thing. I do not cheer on your every victory. I hold your country's aggressive nature in low regard. And please don't come back with the "well, obviously you haven't been exposed to war" and all that, because my grandfather was killed in World War II, and so such action has had an impact on my life. - 3:07:43 on 7 Feb 98 GMT

Adam MALICE AFORETHOUGTLESS----->:Actually, Marlene, Murder 1 usually requires pre-meditation or, the largest class of death-penalty cases, "felony murders." This phrase does not mean a murder that's a felony---they ALL are---but rather a homicide, intentional or not, committed during the course of one of a list of planned felonies (you can imagine the list: rape, robbery, burglary, etc.). In those cases, the common law developed, and most if not all states have codified, "imputed intent." That is to say, if the perp INTENDED the listed felony, and someone dies as a forseeable consequence of that felony, the intent to commit the predicate felony is imputed to the homicide, making it the equivalent of a premeditated murder. The "someone"---rather than "victim"---is interesting, BBC, because felony murder has been upheld when charged against the unarmed driver of a getaway vehicle when a cop or bank guard is shot by one of his cohorts. There was even a case that is in all the law school texts, in which a perp was held on felony murder when a cop killed his fellow perp. It was argued that the law was not meant to cover the death of a perp, but the court ruled that as long as the death was a forseeable consequence of the felony---and it was---it fell within the wording of the felony murder statute. As for your comment about preventing repeat offenses by mere incarceration, I do not disagree, but you have hopped the tracks to go back to DETERRENCE, whereas I was advocating the death penalty on straight RETRIBUTION grounds. Quite frankly, Scarlett Pimpernel, I don't give a DAMN about whether the death penalty deters other potential perps (of course, it is the ultimate deterrant as to the perp in question). I believe that there is nothing wrong with killing someone who has been found guilty of committing an act that the collective will of society has determined falls beneath a minimum level of human behavior for its members. - 3:19:22 on 7 Feb 98 GMT

Ms. Maul-lene:ADAM-RETT- Why, whatever do you mean..? My train is not the American made Amtrack darlin'. What I'm saying he-ar is, the fact that I am trying to con-vey IS retri-bU-sion is based on revenge in the name of the vic-tim he-ah. Wether ya all down there luv revenge or not, frankly my dear it is barbaric. - 4:14:32 on 7 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene...Malanta or Maalox, that is the question...???:Hoo-ooo-old one thar PAPASAMMY- You'll not be hearing any cheering on of soldiers from me. As Joette, peace-keepers are fine in countries who insist on warring with on another but actual all out fighting is not something I find digestable. As far as a rapist goes, if he/she rapes a child, a woman or a man then they are obviously violent and should be kept away from society indefinately. Next question? - 4:20:42 on 7 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene GL300 daa..that stands for graduate of Law 300..:ADAM-LAWSMART- Sheesh! I know pre-meditation is a factor in convicting someone of first degree murder. Even up here in da nort we have taken Law 300 in school. - 4:25:18 on 7 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- I personally have never served time but I do know two people who are presently serving time. Neither for violent crime but crimes against society just the same. One is semtenced to under two years so as you know he is serving his time out in a provincial prison the other got four years and is serving his time in a federal facility. I won't comment on your question as to the reality of life in prison as opposed to life in OZ until after you finish watching the whole series because commenting on it now would give away the ending of the series and I don't want to spoil it for you. BUT I can say that both these guys have played the jesus game and one of them was actually released early. The "pastor" (I year of psychology under his collar) felt he had changed his life around. He was out two weeks and got arrested in the middle of the day robbing a woman's jewelery box while she was downstairs in the kitchen. He must have forgotten about jesus for a few hours. He's back serving out his time. I also know, but not really well, two other offenders but violent offenders. I know both their moms and dads better than them. But that's a whole other ball game. One is in for his third violent rape. I think he will now be kept there indefinately, I hope! If you want the story on that one and believe me, it's quite the story, I'll mail you on it. I forgot to ask in the last post. Are the OZ episodes uncut? On HBO they were not cut but I know some networks will cut scenes many times losing the impact of the story. - 5:17:13 on 7 Feb 98 GMT

Grant:OPEN-- Geez, I'm in the minority even here. Let's see if I understand: We should kill people who we think deserve to be killed? The government should kill people who it thinks deserve to be killed? And if society decides that blasphemers deserve to be killed? And if society decides that Jews or the mentally impaired should be killed? If some human lives are not important, how important are the others? I think that a convicted murderer who is a threat to the lives of others even in prison should be killed, but I don't think we should be slobbering over the prospect. Maybe those old Christians weren't so bad for killing heretics. They didn't meet society's minimum standards of behavior. - 5:25:07 on 7 Feb 98 GMT

PapaSam:MARLENE, JOETTE. I came on a litle strong and did not express my self as clearly as I should have. What I should have said is that in the final analysis, you had rather that one of the enemy died than one of your own. I'm sorry that your grandfather died in WW2, Joette, but as I've stated above, wouldn't you have preferred the alternative? I was lucky to survive, but I saw a great deal of death. I saw a lot of good men, decent people with families back home killed in the service of their country. Perhaps that's why I place so little value on the life of a violent criminal who commits the most heinous crimes. We know what sort of life the inmates of our prisons lead. Here in the US our prisoners enjoy most of the privileges they had outside. In addition they have the opportunity to study and earn college degrees at the expense of the taxpayer. Many go on to study law and file frivolous law suits one after the other, resulting in additional cost to the taxpayers. They also enjoy the pleasures of sex. Our constitution prohibits cruel and unusual punishment. We can't put people in solitary confinement except for short periods of time because of a blatant violation of the rules. So I favor the death penalty when I feel it is deserved. What do you do with a prisoner serving a life sentence who kills a guard? Give him another life sentence? Personally, I can see no alternative to the death penalty. How do you feel about it? - 5:32:38 on 7 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->GRANT...well, being the vocal person I am (and Marlene too!) at least we aren't the silent minority! - 5:48:00 on 7 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->SAM..I have already stated my views on the death penalty. - 5:50:39 on 7 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->MARLENE..Oz is uncut on the channel that is showing it so I see and hear all the nasty bits. I just watched the 5th episode, so have 3 more to go. I find it difficult to watch, and was almost contemplating taping it and watching at another time, but I look at it as a project I must complete. Good night folks! - 5:53:22 on 7 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene:GRANT- You go guy! Although I still think that if someone is a danger to other prisoners, keep him in solitary or at least under watch. There are floors of a prison that do this here. Seems like we are in the minority on a whole lot of things but I'm not comfortable over on the side of the majority so I'll stay right where I am. - 6:12:13 on 7 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene:PAPASAM- I think I've said before that I don't find it cruel and unusual to deny these people color TV, sex visits or any other privileges. IMO, they shouldn't partake in the privileges that society enjoys, they've chosen by an act of hostility against society not to be a part of it. For non-violent offenders, I think they should serve their time then slowly be reintigrated into society by first going to half-way houses. I also think all criminals should pay some retribution to their victims or the family of victims or even to a good cause if there is no one to benefit. Like I suggested, all convicts should have to physically work 10 hours a day. Work is a healthy thing to do for anyone, both physically and mentally. I don't see work as cruel or unusual as the majority of society is out there every day too, many working two jobs so 10 hours isn't asking much of a guy who doesn't have to worry about a roof over his head or food on the table. I don't agree either to a free education. IMO they can work for it after they are released like anyone else has to. Now on the war thing. Many of my family were in the war too and my step father was even a prisoner of war in Hong Kong but this still doesn't excuse war. One must remember that the man you killed on the other side of the conflict has a family too. War is a barbaric and archaic method on settleing disputes. I hope that some day we grow past it. - 6:25:25 on 7 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- I too found it hard to watch and found myself feeling more and more "empty?" after each episode but it definately has a message. - 6:29:21 on 7 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene..and I hope they don't hernia back!!:Goodnight atheists, have you noticed all the jesus freaks left. Maybe they got caught up in one of their ruptures. - 6:31:23 on 7 Feb 98 GMT

Joette...without prejudice...:-->ADAM..sometimes it is necessary to remind some of you that there is a border that seperates our countries, and so you post regarding your laws may not necessarily reflect the laws north of the border. One day soon, Marlene and I and the other Canucks will be asked to vote in a referendum on Capital Punishment, and I would be surprised if it would be voted back in. Our greater issue now is euthansia. Given the nature of our discussions over the past few days, the cultural difference between the countries is far greater than the geographical distance. - 16:49:39 on 7 Feb 98 GMT

Joette...if I only had a brain..:-->ADAM..before you mock me, I am well aware of the plethora of typos in that post. - 16:52:05 on 7 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- I find our country is really much more liberal on many issues. Sometimes I'm pissed with the amountof tax we pay but I feel "safer" living here. - 20:11:38 on 7 Feb 98 GMT

PapaSam:MARLENE. Isn't there something wrpng with the law? Letting him out once was bad enough, but twice? Inexcusable. - 20:59:47 on 7 Feb 98 GMT

PapaSam:GRANT. You seem to be contradicting yourself. "If some human lives are not important, how important are the rest?" You then go on to say "I think that a convicted murderer who is a threat to the lives of others even in prison should be killed." I agree. Those are the individuals we are talking about, not the disabled, etc. Apparenly we are in agreement and you are in favor of the death penalty where the nature of the crime warrants it. - 21:08:03 on 7 Feb 98 GMT

PapaSam:MARLENE. Your idea of what prisons should be like sounds good to me. I agree with you except that I still favor the death penalty where warranteed. Ubfortunately, in the real world they don't exist, at least not that I know of. I wrote "An Atheist's Prayer" to show what the ideal world would be with the right type of "god". Perhaps you should write a similar poem about jails. - 21:13:26 on 7 Feb 98 GMT

PapaSam:MARLENE. I agree with you that war is barbaric. I am not in favor of war. But what do you do when war is thrust upon you? The bombing of Pearl Harbor, or the invasion of Hong Kong? Should war criminals recive the death penalty? Your step- father was a POW in Hong Kong> I can empathize with him? I was a POW of the Japanese for 40 months. Have you ever heard of the Death March? I respect your humanity and regard for human life, but you have never seen an exhausted wounded soldier fall down and have a bayonet thrust through him because he was unable to get up. You have never seen a man so thirsty that he stops to drink water from a filthy roadside ditch only to be shot to death for breaking ranks. That's only the tip of the iceberg. What does your stepfather think of the death penalty, especially for war criminals? Maybe he has some stories to tell. And maybe, just maybe, you might make a few exceptions to your rule. - 22:03:31 on 7 Feb 98 GMT

Quake: Q. Who is the head of the church? A. "Christ is the head of the church" (Ephesians5:23). Q. If Christ is the head, then the church should only follow after him. But what if they don't/ A. Jesus said, "without me ye can do nothing" (John 15:5) , and Paul wrote for Christians to, " Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ...And ye are complete in him which is the head" (Colossians 2:8,9). People are often spoiled today by replacing Christ's headship for something else. This is a warning for the church to examine all things in the light. That includes the way that we gather, our worship, ministry, leadership, etc., and if it is not after christ then we should repent and reject it. Q. If believers don't fully allow Christ to be head, then how can they function properly as the body? A. They can't, and may end up having "a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof" (2 Timothy 3:5). Without Christ, people go into man-made organizations and programs led by a one man ministry. QAre there biblical warnings of not holding the head/ A. Yes there are. And many in the church continue to be spoiled for not doing so. We read that the Colossians were warned of "not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God" (Colossians 2;19). This is very important because without the head there is no true ministry, unity, or increase, although there may be many imitations and man-made forms. Q. This may be one of the reasons why there are so many different and divided bodies which may be under other heads rathers than Christ. But how else does Christ function as the head in his body? A. That the church "may grow up into him in all things which is the head, even Christ. from whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love" (Ephesians 4:15,16). This edifying can happen whenever the believers gather together and if this is not allowed to happen then they are just playing church. As sadly many are. MINISTRY AND EDIFYING Q. So it seems that Christ must be allowed to work as the head through his body as they minister and edify one another. But what does the word edify mean? A. It means, to build up, or construct as a house builder. Q. Are there more scriptures showing that God allows believers to edify and minister to one another when they gather together? A. :Wherefore comfor yourselves together, and edify one another, even as ye do" (1 Thess. 5;11). We also read in the book of Hebrews of "Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching" (Hebrews 10:25). This was allowed for all when they came together, unlike today where one man generally dominates, and a religious system quenches most from sharing by it's programs. Q. So, if some don't follow Christ in edifying then they might not be under His headship. But how else could people be affected if edifying is not permitted? A. "But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the decietfulness of sin" (hebrews 3:13). Paul also wrote that "if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all: And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest" (! Cor. 14:24,25). If these things are not allowed then the believers and unbelievers may not be fully warned or exhorted. Q. It seems clear that when evry ot suplies there is exhorting, edufying, comfort and warning of sin. But are there other specific things that can happen? A. "How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying...Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge. if anything be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace. For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted" (1 Cor. 14;26,29,30). Women may also prophesy (1 Cor11:5 & Acts 2:17,18). Although the Corinthians were having problems, paul still said, to "let all things be done unto edifying", which is unlike many in the church today who rarely allow this to happen, if ever. They will try to sometimes give lip sevice to this by saying "have your way Lord" but if he really did, there whole system may fall apart. Q. Butwho is to be the author of all this, and where these thingsjust for the past or for toady as well? A. Jesus Christ is "the author and finsiher of our faith" (hebrews 12;2) and these things are for today. "For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace as in all the churches of the saints" (1 Cor. 14:33). Therefore, the peace and order that god authorizes in 1 Corinthians 14 would be the same in all the other churches and for today as well. If this was not the case, then there would be confusion ( as there is in many churches today). We must also remember that "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, and today and forever" (Hebrews 13:8). Q. Was this freedom in the Spirit allowed whenever the church gathered together? A. Paul instrct the Corinthians to allow this " when ye come together" (1 Cor. 14:26) and "if therefore the whole church be come together into one place" (1 Cor.14;230, and not just in so-called cell groups or bible groups that are not fully scriptural themselves. Notice that unbelievers may also be present when this freedom is allowed (1 Cor. 14:23). Q. It seems that many churches were exhorted to use their gifts and ministries, but are there other examples? A. Paul encouraged the Romans to use their different gifts from God and to wait on him for prophecy, ministry, teaching, exhortation, giving, ruling and mercy (Romans 12:3-8). Paul's key words here were to let all this be done. These things may happen whenever the saints gather together as well as outside. Peter also exhorts Christians that "As every man hath received the gift, even so minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God;If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth" (1 Peter 4;10,11). Again, they were to let all this happen by God's grace and not to be lead by thier old man with his dead works, of which Adam was the head. Notice also that they were to wait, om God for all, unlike many today who rush into programs and preach by the time clock. Q. But can every believer have something from God? A. Paul wrote to the Corinthians that "the manifestation of the Spirit of God is given to every man to profit withal" (1 Cor. 12;7). Q. What about those who just sit in the pews in these religious systems and don't feel needed? A. It is written that "the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee" (1 Cor 12;21). But today the one-man pastor ministry and a few othrs are all that seem needed in the assembly. QBut what if some disorder happens? A. Then God is not the author of it and believers should pray. This is also where godly oversight comes in (but not as lords), who by sound doctrine exhort and convince the gainsayers (Titus 7-90 . Also Paul wrote "For there must also be heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you" (1 Cor.11;19). So we see that if freedom is allowed, the decievers will also be exposed and then you can pray for them and deal with them. Q. What if some, particularly leaders, do not want to acknowledge or allow the freedoms of ministry and edification in every gathering? A. in reference to these freedoms and God's order, Paul wrote that, "if any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the lord. But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant" (1 Corinthians 14;37,38). many things were commanded here, and Paul summed up these freedoms in vs 39 and 40. But if anyone doesn't allow these then they are ignorant and not to be recieved. GOD'S WAY OR A ONE-MAN SHOW Q. When you talk of the one-man pastor ministry, are you saying that pastors are unbiblical? A. No, there should be pastors, and often more than one. Yet there must also be some, "apostles, and some, prophets; and some, evangelist; and some, pastors and teachers" as paul wrote in Ephesians 4:11. But today the pastor is set up as the single head of a local church, and his postion is unbiblical. Though he may be a minister, in this he becomes very much like a pope. Because of the pastors supreme role, people are often hindered from using their gifts and ministries and no one is allowed to minister without his approval ( as some of their man-made constituions say, in these constituions, they even have a section that says Ministry, and they have one man under it, called the pastor, unlike the bible ministry). Q. Then all the ministries described above in Ephesians 4:11 should be allowed to function and not just a pastor. But what are these other ministries for? A. God gave them for "the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry,fteifigof the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ" (Ephesians 4;12, 13). Q. So all these functions are still needed today, and it seems obvious that one man cannot do all this. But are leaders still needed in the church? A.Paul told some in Ephesus that the Holy Ghost had made them overseers (Acts 20:28), he also told Titus to "ordain elders in every city" (Titus 1;5) and the Hebrews were told to "Obey them that have the rule over you" (Hebrews 13;17). Notice the plurality of leadership. If these men are under Christ's headship themselves then they will never stop believers from edifying one another. Q. But can women be in leadership and authority? A. Paul wrote, "But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man" (1 Timothy 2;12),. When Paul wrote this he said "I speak the truth in Christ" (1 Timothy 2:7), and he was not preaching the cultures of men. Again, he wrote of men, (not women), who rule well their own homes being able to take care of the church of God (1 Timothy 3;4,5). Q. Are there examples of someone dominating and hindering others from using their giftings? A. "I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes , who loveth to have the preeminance among them, receiveth us not...neither doth he himself recieive the brethren, and forbiddeth them that would, and casteth them out of the church" (3 John 9,10). Paul also warned the Ephesians of grievous wolves coming in and drawing away disciples after themselves (Acts 20:29,30). And in second Corinthians we read of those who exalted themselves and brought others into bondage (2 Cor.11:20). Q. But today the pastor is the main focus in the assembly. How did this come about historically? A. This corruption started to develope in the early church. As history progressed, a Roman emperor named Constantine set himself up as the head of the church (though he was still the high priest of paganism) Around this time, large buildings were constructed and, unbiblically called "churches" and so another church with a different head was set up having sacrifices, incense, altars, and a priest, etc. This priest became as a lord in his castle. A false pope system had developed, and with struggles over power and authority, the pope came to be set up as the head of the church (so called). On a smaller scale, each priest was like a "mini pope" in the place of Christ and became as the head of each assembly. They alone seemed holy enough to have access into God's presence, (or so the false image was projected0, and they came between men hearing directly from God. This caused the priesthood of all believers, spoken of in 1 Peter 2:5, to be even more obscured, (though God has always had those throughout history who followed Christ as the head and not man made systems). Eventually,protestants rose up and corrected various errors, but this system with it's priest was deep rooted. Only a few changes were made to the priest office and he came to be know as the" pastro" or :minister as we see them everyewhere today. Yet his position was still very much the same as the priestand the saints were not taught to wait on God or to use thier giftings and ministries. This is mostly what we see in assemblies today, though I hope that all would let crist be the head of his church, and stop quenching the Spirit in others. Stand up and speak the truth in christ name and done't be afraid, if you love God and your brethren we must speak. It seems that the devil would love to try to stop or hinder Christ as the head in the church, and I fear he has been trying and doing this in many assemblies, all he has to do isto get a one man pastor show to exalt itself and all the other body parts are quenched. Bweare!!!!! written by Quake ( that is my internat handle) - 0:01:30 on 8 Feb 98 GMT

Puggles:QUAKE: I found that really interesting, but my problem is that I don't seem to be able to contact god or jesus, and it is really making me worried. What do you suggest? - 0:17:41 on 8 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->QUAKE..I see you are still a man of few words. It's such a balmy clear night, so why aren't you out preaching to the pimps and hookers on the corner of Jane and Finch? - 0:30:30 on 8 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->MARLENE...happy news! I was at a store today that had all their spring stock out (including shorts!), so it looks like the retail industry has declared winter is over! - 0:32:37 on 8 Feb 98 GMT

PapaSam:QUAKE. I have a suggestion for you. Why don't you look up your friend jesus who gives head and after he's through giving you head you can shove your head up his ass and be part of his body. Then you could both go off to glory together and you wouldn't have to come here to spam the site. - 1:12:37 on 8 Feb 98 GMT

Joette..osh kosh, b'gosh..:-->QUAKE...we are well aware that is your "internat" site, but is "bweare" some new kind of bear wear fashion? - 1:23:09 on 8 Feb 98 GMT

YOU KNOW WHO:QUAKE. How dare you presume to speak for me, you piss ant!! Keep your mouth shut and your fingers off the keyboard you insignificant piece of protoplasm or I'll have you impaled on Satan's trifurcated penis!! - 3:01:02 on 8 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene..back from da rupture already!?!?:Speaking of head and penises, Real Sex is on HBO right now, ah kookarach-cha! Christ liked head, well this isn't the first time that I heard the guy was into more than missionary positions. Anyway, I don't want to miss out on my sex education class so I shall post tomorrow! - 4:01:10 on 8 Feb 98 GMT

PapaSam:MARLENE, JOETTE. There may be differences in our cultural outlooks but we sure have the same type of criminals. I just watched a show concerning about Bobby Oatway who not only raped his wife's little sisters - and I mean little -but his own infant son. He was sentenced to 10 years plus 5 years in a halfway house. He served his ten years in Mountain Institution in BC, then was sent to Toronto to Keel (I'm not sure of the spelling) House in Toroonto. The people in Toronto made such a stink over by picketing, holding meetings with community leaders and so on that after soome time - I think it took a couple of years - he finally went back to Mountain Institution, and when he is released he can live wherever he pleases, free to prey on some new victims. One of his victims, now an adult, is very bitter, and says that she and her sisters wish he were dead. So do I. I feel he is eminently qualified for the death penalty. - 6:41:28 on 8 Feb 98 GMT

PapaSam:QUAKE. You left out the best parts. We all know jesus and his apostles were women haters and that they regarded women as equal to turds. The only woman your boy jesus hung around with was the whore, Mary Magdalene. I guess he got it off with her while his apostles were banging each other. You forgot to mention that he was a self loving conceited bastard who demanded that everybody love him first, even if it meant pitting mother against daughter, father against sons, and so on. If it came to a choice between him and a baby sucking at her mother's breast, dump the kid! You also forgot to mention what a bloodthirsty sonofabitch he was as shown in Luke 19-27. I'll jog your memory by quoting it. "But those mine enemies which would not that I reign over them, bring thither and slay them before me." So now we know why Charles Manson held jesus up as his role model. A piece of ass and a few murders made his day. - 7:02:06 on 8 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->TO ANY...I just heard on BBC that tomorrow, the U.S. is sending a religious delegation to China to study the human rights fiasco in the country. This report has disturbed me greatly. Not only are they trying to connect church and state in another country, but why is it that those religionists believe that people who do not have a religion necessarily want a religion? How dare these people be allowed to insinuate their beliefs on others! China has a terrible human rights record which does need to be addressed, but by bringing religion into it, they are just adding fuel to the fire. - 14:20:07 on 8 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene..sheesh with the lenght of this you'd think it was a quake post:PAPASAM- Jc was certainly liked to be the center of attention according to those who have written accounts of his exsistence and workings. Then again each of those authors also were into power struggles with the powers that be of those times. Who's to say that jc was in reality only main character of a political fantasy story, somewhat like "the man from interpol". Now on my step-father. First it may be easier for me to call him George as I always have, when I was little Uncle George. As I have mentioned before, I was raised by a great aunt and great uncle and "Uncle George" was a close friend of my uncle's and his family and our family were close. When my uncle died when I was 15, my aunt who never wanted me there as just only a few years after taking me in became pregnant with her own child, booted me out. George knew this was unfair and made sure that some of the money of my "education fund" that my uncle saved for me went to me. He bought a little house with some of the money my aunt gave to him and then signed the house over to me. I was forced to quit school and go to work but it wasn't a hardship as I had worked very long hours on the farm. Actually I found it rather great as I now got paid for my work LOL! My uncle believed that "if you eat here, you work here", no allowance in those days. In a short while, Uncle George ended up marrying my aunt and helped her to raise her "spoiled brat" daughter. My uncle had left the farm, a fairly heafty insurance policy, and other lands in his will to my aunt but her and her daughter blew it on trips to Florida, new "cars" for her daughter etc. In a year and a half they were out of money so George married her. Poor guy, if he didn't suffer enough with an alcoholic wife who died of liver disease and his imprisonment in Japan. Anyway the daughter moved away from home, my aunt became senile and George was stuck looking after her. Since her daughter wouldn't help George, I did. Not out of love for my aunt but out of a sense of responsibility. During these times of driving them around and cleaning the house, I talked to George a lot. NOW to answer some of your questions. He came from the war a better person. He hated killing because as you have mentioned, he seen many of his friends die. He told me one story when, planes were flying over the tent that the prisoners were housed in. Some of the guys hoping that they would be seen ran out of the tent and waved at the planes. They were shot as soon as they went out of the tent. He saw people die of disentry(sp) and other diseases caused by malnutrition. There were many stories he told me, not out of self-pity, malice or bragging but out of empathy for humans period as he also told me about the mistreatment of Japanese soldiers. He didn't believe in the death penalty or in starving someone to death. He didn't believe in war when he came back as he did before he went over seas. As he said, all the fighting of soldiers didn't end the war, the bomb did. He believed as I do that criminals should be kept away from society and have no special privileges but he went further in his belief that there is good in everyone and that they should be given a second chance. On this point I disageed with him though as I believe sociopaths are beyond rehab. - 14:52:07 on 8 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- This certainly points to the rejoining of church and state in the US! The damn mennonites here plant themselves in other countries too, such as India. I'm not sure but I bet some of the sponsering is coming from our government. These aren't just evangical missionaries either. They are doctors, nurses, teachers etc. They all go there spouting "goodwill" and so they might be doing some goodwill but jc is attached to the goodwill too. I don't know as if China would not adopt religion. As we see in the west, the majority of people are sheep, China may be no different. They caused a belief in the people of Russia, maybe China is the next communist country the US wants to infiltrate. What better way to do it but throught the guise of "goodwill". - 15:02:38 on 8 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene:PAPASAM - The story of Bobby Oatway is just horrible! I don't mean to sound prejudice here but was he an Aboriginal? For some reason sexual abuse is rampant on the reserves. The cause, I don't know? It was not likely common when tribes lived here before the white man came as some studies on it have shown. The cause just may be IMO, from the foster homes and residences these, now elders, were forced into as children. A cause that psychologists put forth (they won't touch the rc residence and foster home issue) is the abuse of substances such as alcohol and sniffing gasoline and solvents. The latter would certainly kill brain cells faster than the alcohol. Sadly the highest rate to teen suicide happens among young Aboriginal kids on the reserves. In the sexual abuse thing, it's been going on for years and IMO is a learned behavior that is passed from generation to generation. It will be hard to curb but hopefully some of the younger people who have escaped this horror and opted for higher education will change this for their people. In fact some of this is coming about now. I know a reserve family in which two boys ages 13 and 17 have had to have veneral warts removed as a result of their grandfather sexually abusing them. Not a pretty story! - 15:16:01 on 8 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->MARLENE..with no facetiousness intended, may I call you Marlene of Green Gables? I was not aware of your upbringing, but it must have been tough. Lucky for you that George was there for you. Is he still alive? - 15:20:21 on 8 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene-grasshopper:Now about my sex eduation class last night. Get this, these babes ain't no southern baptists to be sure! During a Miss Black Nude contest in Jamaica all the girls were saying a prayer before the contest began. So now I know that god is even in the hearts of exhibitionists. I have learned master. - 15:20:37 on 8 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- Actually, no it wasn't tough, at least IMO. No, poor George died about five years ago. I'm sure my wicked insane aunt drove him to the grave. Yes, I have been lucky he was there for me. I dount there was any "love" between George and I but a whole lot of respect. BTW, I think a few challenging times made a better grasshopper out of me, lol! - 15:24:17 on 8 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->MARLENE...take my word for it, god isn't in the heart of all exhibitionists! LOL! - 15:27:12 on 8 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->MARLENE..re your comments regarding the Mennonite missionaries. I don't think there is any government spending, as the Mennonite Relief Committee is very agressive in its fundraising. If you have any "Self Help" shops in your area, they are actually owned and operated by said organization. As I have stated before, I was brought up in the Mennonite faith, and we were often reminded to give up worldy possessions and such to give to the Relief Committee. In fact, I remember one sermon so well where the minister went on at great length that if we only gave up having dessert, all that money we saved and then turned over to them, would feed many families. Now, is there anything more cruel and inhumane than keeping shoo fly pie away from a Mennonite? - 15:32:09 on 8 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene..in class till I'm 92:JOETTE- I didn't know you were raised mennonite! Yuck! Steinbach is one of the mennonite capitals of Manitoba. It is the closest largest town to me. I agree, they do give, give, give! In fact, the mennonites who are truer to their faith, don't keep any interest on their money, but actually donate it to feeding and clothing third world countries. Good people, but why do they need jesus to do this?!? BTW also hard working people, there are many millionares in that town, self-made millionares too! You mean everything that I learned on HBO isn't all there is to learn? Will, I ever graduate from sex education class? Naaaaaa, class is too much fun! - 16:14:33 on 8 Feb 98 GMT

PETER:PAPA SAM--Interesting you ,brought up that passage n Luke 19:27. The following is an excerpt from a book called "Christian Ethics" by Gloria Harkness, which is an interesting example of how a theist deals with that particular passage.........." there is a verse at the end of the parable of the pounds as it is given by Luke which is generally omitted when the story is read. ' But as for these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them before me.' Why do we omit it? Because it doesn't sound like Jesus! It simply does not seem like the words of one who could say on the cross, 'Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do' And even though the textual accuracy of Luke 19:27 is less disputed than of Luke 23:34, we still believe it is the latter in which the real Jesus speaks".........So this author decides what kind of person Jesus SHOULD be, and arbitrarily invalidates any passage which shows Jesus in a negative light, and validates any passage showing him a positive ligh!! Could you imagine if the scientific community gerrymanded information for the sole purpose of saving a theory? - 16:30:46 on 8 Feb 98 GMT

James--->Joette...:I've been looking for information regarding your post as of 14:20:07 on 8 Feb 98 GMT, but have not been able to come up with anything. Specifically, I am looking for anything that might point me to the US Government agency responsible for sponsoring this US religious delegation to China. Generally, I would expect any official US foreign relation mission to be handled by the State Department, But alas, I can find nothing. It is possible that a private group has asked the State Department to get aid in terms of helping with access to the country. You would not want to get over there and be accused of spying or causing civil unrest. Frankly, it seems common knowledge that the communist government in China has little regard for individual freedom and liberty and life in general. The question is what are we going to do about it. The answer should be nothing! It's up to the people of China to change the way their government works. The problem with that is that "he who has the guns has the power". In other words, since their government is so overbearing and prohibits the individual ownership of guns, they stifle the ability of the people to change the system. They have no vote, and they have no guns. They are powerless. Again, war is a horrible thing, but war is the human way to make something like this possible. Unless the rest of the world decides to intervene and "help the people" these people can do nothing as the incident in Tea-an-ni- ma(SP????) Square illustrated. Anyway, If you know anything else about what you heard on the BBC that might help me validate it, I would be interested in it. - 16:45:06 on 8 Feb 98 GMT

James--->Steven...:I thought I'd post something with your idea of substance. You are an asshole. Man, that was deep. - 16:46:58 on 8 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->JAMES..the only other information I can provide that it is the head archbishop, the chief rabbi, and the head of the Evangelical Congregations going, and I do not know either who is sponsoring it. You might try contacting the nearest parish or synagogue to get more information. As far as people in China trying to change anything, I would draw your attention to 1988 (or was it '89) in Tiennamen Square. Again, China has much to apologize for as far as human rights is concerned, but religion isn't the answer. The answer lies in sanctions, but unfortunately, most other countries are in bed with them now for economical reasons, and will not confront them directly on human rights issues. Canada has been rife with protests whenever a Chinese political delegation visits, but the protests have fallen on deaf ears. - 16:51:57 on 8 Feb 98 GMT

James--->Quake...:What is up with that!? How does this Q&A session supported by unsubstantiated dialog in a crummy book prove that god exist? The bible tells you so?????Come on man...use your own thoughts, ideas and words. If you know anything, you should understand that that is how you glorify your creator, make him proud....don't be some bible beaten tape recorder stuck on continuos play. Wake up! - 16:53:04 on 8 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->JAMES...and profane. - 16:54:03 on 8 Feb 98 GMT

bump - 17:22:49 on 8 Feb 98 GMT

bump - 17:24:11 on 8 Feb 98 GMT

bump - 17:25:36 on 8 Feb 98 GMT

bump - 17:25:41 on 8 Feb 98 GMT

hasta luego Quako - 17:27:02 on 8 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->MARLENE..speaking of sex education, I'm not sure if you followed that case where the female teacher had an affair with a 13 year old student, and had a child with him? Her original conviction was rescinded and she was put on probation, on condition that she stay away from her playmate and all other minors. I heard on the news that she and the same 13 year old were found together in a car again (windows were steamed up, so use your imagingation), so she is off to prison for 15 years now. Is this idiocy or what? This kid must really have something going for him! - 0:17:06 on 9 Feb 98 GMT

PapaSam:MARLENE. No, He was not an aboriginal. He had a speech defect and as a child in school was the butt of many remarks. That of course was no excuse for his actions. PETER. The name of the game is selective thinking. However, considering the source there's not to much thoughtin any of it. - 0:18:41 on 9 Feb 98 GMT

Quake:Hello - 0:50:54 on 9 Feb 98 GMT

Joette...has her suspicions:-->That's either a joke, or satan has Quake's tongue! - 1:35:31 on 9 Feb 98 GMT

PapaSam:QUAKE. Congratulations! That was your only intelligent post to date - you didn't say anything. - 5:45:52 on 9 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene:So! not too busy today. PAPASAM- Of course there is no excuse for the guy's actions. I agree, ten years is not likely enough time for rehab, if it's possible with this guy in the first place. JOETTE- Yes, I've been following that one. It turns out they have a nine month old baby together. I don't know about this one...it must be love. No matter what they've gone though with the court and everything and they are still together???? I wonder if he'll wait for her to get out of jail and I wonder who's minding the baby? When it comes to relationships like this, although he's terribly young, who's to say what's right and wrong? There is a couple down the road who got together when he was 15 and she was 36 and still married. Ten years later they are very happy. Most cases I doubt whether a relationship like that works but there are the exceptions. Yikes people have fits over sex! If she beat the kid with a rubber hose or something then I can understand the lenghty jail sentence. - 6:35:59 on 9 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene, Canadian News Update:JOETTE- I guess Bill called Jean (on the red phone, most likley lol) and asked Canada's assistence in search and rescue etc. in the event of a strick on Iraq. Can you imagine Jean, "I ask de ouse of commmens tomorrow what day tink, I'm so busy me wit de snow sculpters for de festival. Maybe bring de Mesis up for de festivities but make sure you keep your ans off my wife, cris! I will get back to you, eh! Au revoir! Ey Bill! dat means bye in Canadian, eh! - 6:50:14 on 9 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE-I hope the "strick" doesn't happen, lol. I'm finding it really difficult to type. I have my computer on the floor as I'm working in the computer room now. - 6:53:53 on 9 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->MARLENE..if you computer is on the floor, isn't Corny getting crushed? As far as Canada goes with the Iraq thing, Jean been saying what he says best "..uh, maybe. Can we use da pepper spray?" - 11:20:17 on 9 Feb 98 GMT

Geoff Robson:Just a couple of quick thoughts. Regarding the quote from Einstein on your main page: It's not a question of humans being good in the hope of reward or the fear of punishment. The point is that none of us are good - me, you, the local minister or priest, The Pope, nobody. We have all fallen short of the glory of God, and can never meet this standard. All any of us can do is admit we have sinned and ask for God's forgiveness, which we receive through the death of Jesus. Now, there is a book I'd like to recommend to everyone. It's called "More than a carpenter" by Josh McDowell. It takes a very analytical approach to looking at the life of Jesus, considering the various possibilities about his life. Anyone who is unsure or doubtful should check this book out, it's an outstanding source of confirmation about just who Jesus was and is. I would also challenge anyone who is confident and convinced of their non-belief to test your convictions, open yourself up and check this book.Hey, if you're right then there's no harm in confirming that by reading this book, right? - but the evidence in this book is most compelling and at the very least will be thought-provoking for anyone willing to read thoughtfully - 12:46:37 on 9 Feb 98 GMT

Puggles:Geoff Robson: 'Fraid I've already read that one (and Evidence That Demands a Verdict). Both were pretty poor- you might like to take a look at this address to see some reasons why (click on my name). - 12:59:40 on 9 Feb 98 GMT

Steven:JOETTE<<>> it doesn't appear that I missed much this weekend, other than another QUAKE spam. - 14:03:00 on 9 Feb 98 GMT

RON...--->Geoff Robson...: The "front end" of this web page suite is left over from the original owner and remains untouched, except for my image. I have no idea behind the meaning of the quotes. - 14:06:37 on 9 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene:GOEFF- I'm atheist, your post is nonsense to me. JOETTE- Corny is also a shape changer, didn't I mention that? That Jean, ees such a nice guy, eh? - 14:27:04 on 9 Feb 98 GMT

PETER:Geoff Robson--"Damnation is the start of your morality, destruction its purpose, means and end. Your code begins by damning man as evil, then demands he practice the good which it defines as impossible for him to practice. Ity demands, as his first proof of a virtue, that he accept his own depravity without proof. It demands that he start, not with a standard of a value, but with astandard of evil, which is himself, by means of which he is then to define the good: the good is that which he is not. It does not matter who then becomes the profiteer on his renounced glory and tormented soul, a mystic God with some incomprehensible design or any passerby whose rotting sores are held as some inexplicable claim upon him--it does not matter, the good is not for him to understand, his duty is to crawl through years of penance, atoning for the guilt of his existence to any stray collector of unintelligle debts, his only concept of value is a zero: the good is that which is NON MAN. The name of this monstrous absurdity is Original Sin"---Ayn Rand ( From the book "Atlas Shrugged") Geoff, this is what happens to postulations such as yours when they are examined closely and rationally. - 14:30:17 on 9 Feb 98 GMT

PETER:MARLENE--Nonsense? That is the understatement in the history of this chat room. It is as an abominable anti-human a doctrine imaginable. ( And I'm just getting started. ) - 14:34:37 on 9 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->TO ALL..if you watched 60 Minutes last night, yes, that is exactly the way it is in Quebec. The rest of us Canadians are sore embarrassed. - 14:38:26 on 9 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE and PETER -I just heard about that 60 Minutes show. Not only sore embarassed but pissed of that this issue costs us a damn fortune! But..but I heard on the local radio that the show felt it was a minor problem in a country with few problems..hummmm. How about the unemployment rate.. - 15:59:53 on 9 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:ANY: The reading of the "Warfare..." book is done. As I look back at this religious thing, it may be clearly and pointedly said of that, ignorance is its blessing, that means as long as someone as the quack exemplifies, is willing to go along with its nonsense, merci'MARLENE, religion will remain in a place. Who was that pseudonym that inscribed religion types said profound things, I did not read any such thing in the Warfare book, and whenever the religious type did something, they did so and were said to do so- to dispite god. The few times that did happen the counter action of pro-religion types sure appeared to be an act of stupidity, but profound- no. The other book I started "Does God Exist" it said at least three times already that neither it nor anything can say what god is, although the author states he will prove that the design\designor argument is the best possible way to lead the seeker to god[s]. The author made this attempt in 1946, so his ignorance seems almost medieval. Maybe the quack this time has his own insight and not some Chaldean-Babylonian myth and superstition from days o'yore to share here. - 16:31:32 on 9 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:P'SAM: Last week I used the word "tenet" here because that word seemed to be the order of thought held by most here, especially the religion types and their toughest of "all" gods talk, and like the god thought is manmade, so is the choice made for the proposed "tenet" that like any other manmade thing it can be changed. Animals and gods as I inscribed are static. For myself, I am not what my father was nor my g'father or anyone before. Neither are you. We change. - 16:45:07 on 9 Feb 98 GMT

PETER:CARL--I have seen that book " Does God Exist" --who is the author? - 16:47:23 on 9 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:PETER: It is a short book, about 172 pages, authored by an A.E.Taylor. - 17:03:44 on 9 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->PUGGLES...that's a good site! - 18:24:22 on 9 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:G'ROBSON: At this site it is safe to say most here have read that article in addition to the contrary article PUGGLES brings to your attention. One has got to have that kind of mindset in place in order for such jc favorable views to take hold- in ones'mind. Its only other mindset example are the children who accept in their minds tales o'S.Claus. Kids o'that "needed mindset", who with and even without chinmeys for the S.Claus, take-in that tale for as many reasons as there are such children. Mental growth allows children to leave such thinking, sometimes tho'these children have it in them still to substitute that S.Clause thing with a jc thing. Both jc and s.clause are mythical and loaded with ancient superstitions and require for any meaning to an individual the appropriate, what- emptiness of mind, fear o'death, want for something, preferences for ignorance whatever the reason might be, then jc is for you, but not me. - 18:25:04 on 9 Feb 98 GMT

PapaSam:GEOFF ROBSON. Speak for yourself. You may think of yourself as a worthless piece of shit fit only to grovel at the feet of an imaginary thing you call god. Don't try to label others. I think I'm a good person. "Forgiveness by the death of jesus" For what? for being alive? I have read your fairy tales about your invisible god having an invisible spirit impregnate a young visible virgin but they left out the sexy details. Does this book supply them? Hey, I have an open mind. I'll be glad to read it - but I sure won't spend two cents to buy some recycled drivel. Tell you what - you send me a copy and i'll invest my time. Fair enough? - 18:33:08 on 9 Feb 98 GMT

PETER---Carl--:--Ah yes, Mr. Taylor. Geoge H. Smith has a few references to him in his book "Atheism: The Cae Against God". Taylor apparently argues very inefectively from the argument of design. Good post to Geoff, by the way. - 18:38:10 on 9 Feb 98 GMT

PapaSam:CARL. No sweat. Words are only tools used to express ourselves. Tenet or belief - either one gets the idea across. Your use of the word is correct. I prefer to use it in a religious context. - 18:43:27 on 9 Feb 98 GMT

PETER:PAPASAM--Right on. As much as it the greatest perversion of morality imaginable, as the concept of original sin is the idea of Jesus 'dying for our sins'. Glad you mentioned it. - 18:44:29 on 9 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:OPEN: Went to the Main Library stacks found John W.Draper's "Conflict between Religion and Science" published 1879. While this may seem dated I find upon reading these older books, that they address the very issues the visiting mystics of this site, seem to hold as some sort of personal treasure. The visitors actually have nothing to say that religion types many many years before their times- of now, also tried but found useless while placing them then as now, in poor light. These religious mystics should try to read something contemporary over a span of a decade or two. - 21:05:58 on 9 Feb 98 GMT

KATHY --to all-- i'm sorry to say that all who say that they don't believe in God is going to hell and i'm sorry if the truth offends some people i must say that people who say that they are free as they call it they think that if they believe that God doesn't exist then they don't have to face up to him and they don't have to be good and they can do anything without consequences well let me tell you your still going to hell on judgement day if you denie God just because you don't believe in something doesn't mean it's not true to say that there is no God means you have knowledge of everything everywhere and i know you don't have that kind of knowledge you want proof that there is a God look in the mirror you stare at proof everyday and yet you still denie him i understand that it's a scary thought that if you don't obey God then your going to hell but to denie him is worse than disobeying him read the book God doesn't believe in atheists by Ray Comfort it will explain all in great detail i will pray that God has mercy on your foolish souls - 21:19:04 on 9 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:OPEN: Again on old books, the next time I'm in the stacks I must look for an old bible published maybe early or mid 1800's. As I read these other old scholarly books they regularly refer to things in the bible that do not appear now. These old scholarly books also refer to assorted meetings where a goal of 'proper interpretation' was the objective. This sure does not sound like a god's word or book to me. The visiting mystics must hold only their wish for a pot o'gold in mind when they read and decalre the bible to be devinely inspired. - 21:23:35 on 9 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->kathy..no need to apologize! We can't wait! - 21:28:02 on 9 Feb 98 GMT

Puggles (still blue from reading Kathy's post without inhaling):Kathy: Is the book by Ray Comfort an easy reader? - 21:30:10 on 9 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->KATHY..are you from the writing style school of James Joyce or Jack Kerouac? Here's a quote for you "Judge not, lest ye be judged." - 21:30:46 on 9 Feb 98 GMT

Joette (tongue firmly in cheek)..:-->CARL...you do so much "heavy" reading that your head must be ready to explode. I bet you're real fun at parties too! LOL! - 21:32:55 on 9 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:JOETTE: I'm no unibomber(who coulda'been just exercising his constitutional rights and not insane) such books have me shakin'my head in disbelief that there are even folks like KATHY, who may be insane. - 22:04:49 on 9 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->CARL...we you mean we won't be seeing your manifesto in the New York Times? - 22:39:38 on 9 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:JOETTE: I'm sort o'chucklin now. - 22:44:10 on 9 Feb 98 GMT

Joette ;):-->CARL..I'm picking on you today! How does one "sort of chuckle"? - 22:54:43 on 9 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:JOETTE: well, it is sparked by something humerous as this may be to one, it begins without restraint probably somewhere in the area of the diaphram. As it wells upward a slight smile turns the cornors of the mouth up, a straight line could be drawn from each point toward the ears, sometimes just one ear, I had a one earer. From the diaphram the beginning of an open mouth chuckle forms but restraint takes over and the uprushing air becomes a closed mouth quiet "sort o'chuckle". - 23:04:23 on 9 Feb 98 GMT

jaywilson--I sling the bawdy eclectic--:JOETTE: How dare you rank Kathy with even a hack _auteur_ like Kerouac, let alone a master like Joyce! She's "sorry", all right--and that moronic, vacuous, oxygen-depriving run-on narrative! Makes me want to howl at the moon like ADAM! Ahhhhooooooooooooo! - 23:06:31 on 9 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene:CARL- Don't ask for recent writers of biblical babble or you'll get Hal Linsey groupies and believe me, that's even worse! KATE- Why do you use the shift button to capitalize god but nothing else? And as Puggles so astutely pointed out, you also didn't write in sentences. Rather long winded really. No, dear, we won't be sorry because there is no heaven and there is no hell and there is no god. - 23:08:09 on 9 Feb 98 GMT

Joette (exclamation marks the spot..):-->jaywilson..only drawing attention to the lack of punctuation, period. - 23:09:36 on 9 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->jaywilson...did you hear how Kerouac died? He was writing On the Road. (pretty bad, eh?) - 23:11:28 on 9 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->CARL..your description of a sort o'chuckle was good for a hearty guffaw! - 23:12:57 on 9 Feb 98 GMT

jaywilson--pro-Joyce, although Jack can be Beat--:JOETTE: Good one! As for Kathy's punk-tuation, I hope she realizes the downside of missing a period or two--(pregnant pause)--her sentence may be longer than she thinks! - 23:30:37 on 9 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:ANY: I guess the KATHY departed? The regulars here could have been pictured as predators about some bewildered creature, none yet really decided to bite it hard as it continues to bleat. That was one of the sadder posts, had me thinkin'- so this is feelin'sorry? - 23:35:57 on 9 Feb 98 GMT

Joette (and I'm never going back to my old school):-->jaywilson..but then she'll have to be colon on her lord to banish this object from her lest it becomes a dangling participle (man this is bad!) - 23:53:33 on 9 Feb 98 GMT

jaywilson--read any Good Books lately?--:CARL: A good working definition of sentimentalism is "the oversimplification of emotion." That fits Kathy's-chism to a T. As for your search for a 19th century Bible, the King James (Protestant) version was published in 1611, and is the most widely recognized version to date; therefore, I suspect your dusty tomes may have made reference not to the Bible, but to the Apocrypha, in which case Protestant Bibles would not include them. - 23:57:42 on 9 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->CARL..do you think Kathy keeps her denie in a bottle? - 0:03:41 on 10 Feb 98 GMT

jaywilson--get thee to a punnery!--:JOETTE: Comma-on, now! We know her hyphen was not intact, and she refused to dash though she had her asterisk, so my parent-thesis stands. - 0:06:25 on 10 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->jaywilson...should we question Mark? He may be the subject of our intransitive verbage? - 0:14:11 on 10 Feb 98 GMT

PapaSam:KATHY. Don't bother praying for me. I've already sold my soul to Satan. He took me on a tour of hell. I liked it there, The weather was nice and warm and they had lots of sex there. Do angels have sex, or don't they have sexual organs. If your jc takes you for a visit maybe you can sneak a peak (in the ladies room of course, a woman with your high moral standards certainly wouldn't go into the mens room, besides, I don't think you would recognize a penis if you saw one). I can hardly wait to see your answer. Don't bother getting madd at me. I'm under Satan's protection and he's tougher than your jc. - 0:22:49 on 10 Feb 98 GMT

jaywilson--the incurable semantic--:JOETTE: His exclamations are point-less; although, as the direct object of her affections, he may have fantasized about her genitives, prepositioned her, and, seeing she was in a subjunctive mood, embedded his clauses, puckered his ellipsis, and subordinated her. - 0:30:06 on 10 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->jaywilson..sorry, I was visiting Crete there for a bit. I am not match for your parallel thinking, and I applaud you! - 0:59:34 on 10 Feb 98 GMT

jaywilson--pronoun-cing a subjective complement to :JOETTE: Shucks, ma'am; t'weren't nothin'. Truth be known, you're pretty good your own self. Got to put the babies to bed; see y'all. - 1:21:42 on 10 Feb 98 GMT

Wake up everbody! - 11:17:29 on 10 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:Major flag waving happening here! - 11:42:43 on 10 Feb 98 GMT

RON..."in God we Trust...: It was announced yesterday that, although Mr. President is accused of porking half the female population of D.C., he has an approval rating of 79%. Let's all sing together, "I'm proud to be an American where I know Mr. Bill is free, and I won't forget those that died that gave the same right to me. And I'll gladly stand up, and pork her too, for she means that much to me, and I'm proud to be an Americaaaaaannnnnnn...." (belch, where's the remote, maa?) - 13:25:02 on 10 Feb 98 GMT

RON...we suck...: Even the Czech Republic is kicking our ass in the medal race. - 13:28:17 on 10 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->Rob..was I right, or what? - 13:30:04 on 10 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->RON..we are going to kick assch! Especially in hockey! nahnahnahnah - 13:31:42 on 10 Feb 98 GMT

Richard White:Is man an accident of evolution? Does life have a purpose? Did man invent god to explain the unknown.Why do we grow old and die? We question our own existence. When I was a small boy in Catholic school a priest said in class pointing at a cross on the wall "he died for your sins and you put him on that cross" From then on I knew all religions were man made. How could Jesus die for my sins? I was only 13. And when I went in the military when I was in boot camp I was forced to attend religious services! Why the guilt trip in Christian dogma? Read Joseph Campbell he writes about the myths of religion. thanks for your page. Regards Dick - 13:59:46 on 10 Feb 98 GMT

Richard White:Is man an accident of evolution? Does life have a purpose? Did man invent god to explain the unknown.Why do we grow old and die? We question our own existence. When I was a small boy in Catholic school a priest said in class pointing at a cross on the wall "he died for your sins and you put him on that cross" From then on I knew all religions were man made. How could Jesus die for my sins? I was only 13. And when I went in the military when I was in boot camp I was forced to attend religious services! Why the guilt trip in Christian dogma? Read Joseph Campbell he writes about the myths of religion. thanks for your page. Regards Dick - 14:00:36 on 10 Feb 98 GMT

Steven:JOETTE<<>> I wouldn't be so quick. We get to use our pro's this time. I think our hockey team will give Canada fits. Just wait for baseball! (i know it is two years away) it is simply amazing that the Kathy person didn't use one period, not even at the end of her rant. - 14:14:58 on 10 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->STEVEN..yes, but we get to use our pros too! Need reminding that we have Gretsky? - 14:33:02 on 10 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:->RICHARD..thank you for your comments, and welcome to our humble page. - 14:34:21 on 10 Feb 98 GMT

Steven:JOETTE<<>> ouch! The only problem is he is a dinosaur on skates. I hope he doesn't get forechecked, he may break. - 14:53:43 on 10 Feb 98 GMT

PETER:--The hockey thing is up for grabs. Canada. US, and Sweden are practically indistinguishable. Never count out the Russkies either. A hot Hasek could also do it for the Czechs, and the Finns also have lotsa talent. In fact I think any of those teams could take the gold. However, if they all play their "A" game--gotta give a slight nod to Eric. Wayne, Patrick and the boys. When Roy gets hot they will never lose. - 15:28:20 on 10 Feb 98 GMT

Steven:PETER<<>> how true. Roy is a monster, but I partial to Belfour. - 15:33:33 on 10 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:OPEN: Old things while curios- in being unusual to now, now stuff has its interests - 16:20:17 on 10 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:ANY: No offense intended but once back when before I encountered MMMM, while flipping thru a loaded site as the one above, I ended up in some Egyptian place. In the site, I saw ancient inscriptions on some tomb that were said to tell about a 3 god in 1 myth, it also gave the names; none of which i recall. So, in the these two other old books I read that these people, the authors, also know of that and tell the particulars. The really confounding part, both authors claim to be xtians! They had the information that belies the xtian stuff- its sources of adopted/forged myth and superstition, but still these two high titled very well read learned individuals do not simply say, that with what they know, xtianity is false. Everything I have read so far says that to me. When these xtian nutz start duplicating jonestown or preparing for the next meteor, I'm arming myself. No way I'm jumpin'in too! - 16:43:19 on 10 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:ANY: Dismissing the religious aspects of mohammedism and xtianity, 'm' comes out far ahead of 'x' in terms that appear as, 'for' humanity. Still readin' - 18:59:00 on 10 Feb 98 GMT

RON...--->Joette...:But, our female hockey team RULES...!!! nanna-nanna-nah - 19:18:33 on 10 Feb 98 GMT

RON...--->Richard White....: I'll explain it to you someday. How history was twisted into religion. - 19:22:15 on 10 Feb 98 GMT

PETER:RON--If you recall last year, our girls beat your girls in the final game of the World Championship ( which coincidentally was in our fair city, and a game which my wife and myself attended as witnessed first hand-only three rows from the ice, right by the American net--our girls scoring in overtime to win). My wife was scared thrpoughout the game. Whenever she went to the washroom, she always wasn't sure if she was in the right one--if ya get my drift. The majority of the spectators were, shall we say, not a typical cross-section of society one would encounter normally. It still was fun--and they will win again. - 20:20:21 on 10 Feb 98 GMT

Steven:ALL<<>> I have a question that requires a vote. Who believes that a person named Jesus existed? - 20:27:18 on 10 Feb 98 GMT

PETER:STEVEN--But Eddie's also a Canadian. As a Blackhawk fan ( don't ask ) I too was an Eddie fan. I still like the guy. Did you know that Todd Harvey had his wedding reception at the hotel I worked at--and he and the Dallas players trashed the place. Their prime ribs weren't cooked properly. The Stars often stayed at our hotel when playing the Leafs. Many of them came from the Toronto area, and Bob Gainey wanted to stay a little farther from Toronto because some of the players would get distracted by ex-girlfriends and old drinking buddies. I was talking to him and this is exactly what he told me! Oh they are such pigs! - 20:28:49 on 10 Feb 98 GMT

STEVE:STEVEN--I have read some interesting stories on this, an the verdict is still out. One speculation I find interesting is that "Jesus" was actually several people, and the name Jesus was more of a symbolic name rather than of an actual person. One cannot use the bible as a reference concerning this matter, as it gives virtually no unbiased historical facts about him ( or "they ) One also has to keep in mind the motives of those in control of the church and that was to control the population. There were no guidelines set in place to control any degree of twisting the alleged words he (they)said. Deception, chicanery, exagerations, fabrication--you name it were carte blanche ( and they still seem to be ). The sympathisers of his accounts seem to conveniently ignore this reality--and when they say they can PROVE the validity of the resurrection--it is beyond laughable and absurd. In fact, I am still looking for the correct descriptive word that would apply in this situation. If I had a time machine, this would be the first time and place I would go! - 20:39:21 on 10 Feb 98 GMT

Steven:PETER<<>> that last post sounded like it was from you, was it? - 20:41:29 on 10 Feb 98 GMT

PETER:--Steve--Although I like your name, I really didn't change mine to be the same as yours. That last post was mine. - 20:41:37 on 10 Feb 98 GMT

StEvEn:Or is there another Steve out there? - 20:42:08 on 10 Feb 98 GMT

PETER:--Steve--Hey man, like, I got a SOUND, man? Far fucking out! - 20:44:04 on 10 Feb 98 GMT

Steven:PETER<<>> I have been reading a lot of material concerning the hisoricity of jesus. From what I have read so far, there is absolutely no historical evidence that the man lived at all. - 20:44:37 on 10 Feb 98 GMT

Steven:PETER<<>> From what I understand the majority of players in the NHL are from Canada. This makes sense considering it is where the game was invented. In Texas, the local populace lives, breathes and dies football. Is it the same for hockey in Canada? - 20:46:38 on 10 Feb 98 GMT

Steven:PETER<<>> sounded, geez, sometimes I wonder how many brain cell's I have left. sounded smounded. - 20:47:44 on 10 Feb 98 GMT

Sometimes I type before I think. LOL - 20:48:14 on 10 Feb 98 GMT

PETER:--STEVE--It is in some areas, and certainly was moreso a generation ago. In this area hockey, soccer, baseball are big in a minor-leaugue level. In high school its football and basketball. I'd say around Toronto at a major-league level it would be slightly more for the Leafs than the Jays ( although this depends how good the respective teams are ). The Raptors fan-wise are doing OK. However, in Quebec its hockey hockey hockey--out west its hockey, football, baseball--and in BC--you have in addition soccer, rugby and lacrosse. I have played them all, and my favourite one to play --by far--is hockey. And I'll bet if more Americans had the chance to do so, they would recognize that it is-- by far-- the best sport-- to play and watch!! Also-just wondering, do you have trouble seeing the puck on T.V? - 21:10:59 on 10 Feb 98 GMT

Grant:YA'LL-- Just returned from America's dairyland, where I attended the Lutheran funeral of probably the person I most respected in this world, my wife's mother. In September I had the honor of sitting up late talking with her of her life. I'll not bore you with that. Too bad though, that her memory had to be sullied by only mindless generic talk of how wonderful heaven is, blah blah blah. I almost wish I hadn't gone, but I guess funerals are for we the frightened living. - 21:42:43 on 10 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:OPEN: Now, this Draper guy says,"Thus our modern doctrines of evolution and development were taught in their schools." Draper was writing of a period of time around or before 1000AD as it was in the world of mohammedism. So what did darwin do, if this group of people already knew about such notions and even taught it to their young? So, what is going on? - 21:57:53 on 10 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:OPEN: Who was that xtian religion nutzo who wanted to assert "his" kind said and did profound things? What an outright example of ignorance and blind-faith, and blindness may not be accurate enough for such ignorance, that he is. Nothing more need be said of these xtian religious creatures. - 22:08:46 on 10 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->Welcome back Grant. Let's hope all the nasty bits can be put behind you for a while. - 22:09:22 on 10 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->STEVEN..it is my belief that Jesus existed, and that he was a self-absorbed radical. I can believe that he was hung on the cross for treason, because he didn't know when to keep his mouth shut. As far as being the son of a god, he was only a son of a bitch. - 22:11:59 on 10 Feb 98 GMT

RON...--->Peter....: This year our Lesbians will pummel your Lebians. I wish I was there.... - 22:27:06 on 10 Feb 98 GMT

Bob Costas:-->RON..so you like the occassional bitch fight I see. Actually, did you notice the shots on goal in the Canada vs. Japan game (66 to 3). - 22:57:01 on 10 Feb 98 GMT

RON...--->Steven...: I believe a person named Jesus walked the Earth during that time and was nailed to a cross. - 23:45:43 on 10 Feb 98 GMT

Jonobette:-->ADAM..in case you missed this this morning! - 1:25:57 on 11 Feb 98 GMT

Adam IN ABSENTIA (or DEMENTIA):---> Sorry, folks, I'm just back from Friday, and I only checked quick responses to my last post and what's currently on La Page Aux Folles. Sorry if I missed any replies directed ACME. MARLENE: I insist that the retribution theory I posited does not stem from revenge, and is not carried out in the name of the victim (at least not primarily so). I also would like to know on what basis you've unilaterally declared the death penalty "barbaric." Is all killing barbaric? - 1:50:28 on 11 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene ask a simple question...:ADAM- "Asinine Inquirer"--Mercy killing is an exception, otherwise, yes! - 3:10:30 on 11 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene:ADAM- What DOES it stem from then? huh? - 3:12:11 on 11 Feb 98 GMT

PapaSam:MARLENE. What do you mean by mercy killing? Do you mean assisted suicide, or taking it on yourself to decide that someone needs to die? I am in favor of my right to choose. I am opposed to euthanizing those who do not choose that option. If ever the time comes when I no longer can take care of my personal needs, when I have to be fed and diapered and can live only with tubes in every orifice of my body I would have no desire to live. If anyone reaches that stage and chooses to wallow in his own feces and wait for his festering bedsores to turn gangrenous, that is his privilege. I wish him long life. I have no right to interfere with his wishes and he has no right to interfere with mine. - 4:46:30 on 11 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene:PAPASAM- Yes, euthanasia is exactly what I mean. I also agree with you that it has to be the wish of the one wishing to be "killed". We, in Canada, may be somewhat closer to a euthanasia law being allowed. There is a case in Winnipeg now, that may make it to the higher court. Strange word we live in, it's alright to kill in war, or a death sentence but it's not alright to mercy kill. Imagine what another species from the universe would think of that. ANY- Has anyone seen Private Parts? GRANT- Ah, funerals...I've have requested that I not have one. I fail to understand this either. Why does everyone take the time to go to a funeral but fails to take the time to go and visit while the person is alive. Bet that species thinks that's rather backwards too. - 6:02:10 on 11 Feb 98 GMT

RON...--->Grant....: Welcome back! I remember my grandmother's (the person I respected most) funeral, it was thickly dipped in Baptist jargon, with pretty images of wings, harps, and how much better she would be without the Earth gripping her feet. I believe she would have loved to see all the relatives meeting for one last time. She had many hard stories to tell... - 13:11:29 on 11 Feb 98 GMT

RON...--->Joette...: Hey, I hear your athletes really know the meaning of, "roll your own". Too bad for the Maple Team. America, America, god shed "his" grace ONLY for thee.... - 13:16:01 on 11 Feb 98 GMT

Steven:PETER<<>> I agree with you about the sport best to watch, I will have to wait on the other because I have never played. It is far more fun to go watch the Stars than the Cowboys. Who was the athelete that had their gold medal taken away? Talk about fucking bullshit. I wish to know how smoking pot will affect your performance. It may have made him a little hungry, or the music a little better but it didn't affect how he skied. AAAAAHHHHHHHHHH when will this bs ever stop. Just one more thing to blame the fucking christians on. - 13:56:29 on 11 Feb 98 GMT

Grant:RON-- I guess I shouldn't be critical. How can we sum up a life in thirty minutes or so? Being unaccustomed to religious services, though, one impression I had was of a "don't trouble yourselves with this death stuff. Be happy. We'll handle all the unpleasant thinking and such" attitude. --- MARLENE-- I'm not sure I want a funeral either; all my loved ones having a good time while I burn in hell! :-) - 14:19:34 on 11 Feb 98 GMT

Grant:STEVEN-- We can't blame the xtians for everything. Their human nature and ours is the same. We aren't a different species. I could effectively argue that I , for example, am stupider than lots of xtians. - 14:23:27 on 11 Feb 98 GMT

Steven:GRANT<<>> I am not questioning a xtians intelligence, this time. I am pissed because xtian morality screws with everything. It was xtians that lobbied and pushed for marijuana to be illegal. It is absolutely ridiculous that marijuana is illegal. It is even more ridiculous that the Olympic com. would even consider takeing a gold medal away from an athelete for smokeing pot. I have never debated the legality of marijuana with someone and recieved a rational explaination to why it is illegal. This athelete busted his ass for how many years, to have it taken away. IMO drug testing at all is a violation of a person privacy. What is in your body is private. I can understand why the would test for steroids because they CAN affect your performance. - 14:37:44 on 11 Feb 98 GMT

Steven:GRANT<<>> it is the xtian metality to say, "well if I don't do it, you shouldn't either" along with, "If you don't believe then I will make you believe, or I will kill you". - 14:39:08 on 11 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:STEVEN: Here is an interesting site that appears concerned with drugs and stuff. - 15:56:50 on 11 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->To All..I am coming to the rescue of the Maple Leaf Team, as you are probably not getting the amount of coverage as we are pertaining to the gold medal being taken away. It was one of our snowboarders, who won the gold on Saturday. On Tuesday the IOC medical commission reported that he had "passive amounts" of THC in his urine sample and that they recommend his medal be stripped. To this end, the IOC has done so, but the Canadian Olympic Committee has appealed the decision. He had 2.8 more nanograms per 100 million parts of THC than allowed under the International Ski Federation which the boarders fall under for these games. He has denied using any marijuana in the last 10 months, but attended a party two days before his event where many people were enjoying a toke. Doctors and scientists have confirmed that it is possible that the amount that was found in his tests could be second hand smoke, and that it could stay in his system for up to one month. To me, it is a purely spiteful and political decision, in that the best snowboarder in the world (forget his name, but I think he is from the U.S.) has boycotted the games because he felt that by excluding the International Snowboarding Federation was unfair, and the boarders were forced to become part of the ski federation. He has publicly compared the IOC to organized crime, and to this end, I think it is a witch hunt. Hopefully they will be made to look foolish when this is all over, which will be sometime tonight. Mind you, if I had to stand on a small board and fly down a hill at 100 mph, I'd be toking my brains out before I started! - 15:59:45 on 11 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:STEVEN: Did somethin'in error, again? - 16:01:34 on 11 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:STEVEN: I am not one to reinvent the wheel, so I have read and these things sure seem to be on target when it portrays the ways that some kinds of religious-belief that stifflingly lay upon or over deeds and the thoughtful actions of people. The critical thinking proceses for the religious-belief types never get beyond rudimentary thoughtless wishes or desires. These kinds of believers either look- hope, to tomorrow, or they desire for times past, when events they think- believe, were better and good. These are as I think, so have I read others who also decribe these believers similarly, further compounded by people who want to control. These control types, do they exercise acts of life and death just to make those not in control to want to believe? - 16:36:42 on 11 Feb 98 GMT

PETER:--GRANT, STEVEN--As you may know, my biggest bone to pick with the Xtians is their pervading assumption that they have the moral market cornered--when in fact, their doctrine actually makes morality impossible. Yesterday I was on a Xtian chat page full of flaming "Quake-like" fundies. One of them said , and I quote " I din't trust the Japs--especially after what they did in Pearl Harbour" I told that person, and explained as concisely as I could, that that is a bigotted assertion. Well, guess what? EVERY FUNDIE ON THAT PAGE stuck up for him and accused me of being "too self-righteously politically correct" and "over-reacting" and thought I HAD NO RIGHT WHATSOEVER in making a "moral judgement". They called me "stupid" and acting like a "know-it-all". I called them on just sticking up for each other, and told them if an atheist said the same thing, I would call him a bigot as well. Of course they denied that, and called me a "liar" who would have to "answer to God" someday for all my lies. Then after I again re-iterated as to WHY I considered that person's statement as bigotted. and after some more exchanges, a few of the said-" Well I guess you are entitled to your own opinion" BUT REFUSED TO CONCEDE--JUST BECAUSE I WAS AN ATHEIST.....Now their behavior proves once again that christian "morality" is TOTALLY INEFFECTIVE in identifying, and correcting bigotted attitudes, as well as destroying any sense of objective evaluation. I feel I can responsibly make this conclusion, because if Xtianity was effective in this area, the argument would have never occured. And GRANT, I am sure many of them are intelligent, but they just haven't realized the blatant shortcomings of their moral code. - 16:48:12 on 11 Feb 98 GMT

Steven:PETER<<>> One of the reasons that i get so upset with James is because he cannot see what the gov. of this country does. Our government uses christian morality as the base to many of our laws and public and foreign policy. What the hell do we know about China that gives us the right to complain about their human rights. Christians think that if you are not christian then you have no morals, how completly wrong they are. It is the same thing with drugs, why the hell are the illegal, because christians feel that what I do not approve of, nobody should use. My personal view is fuck 'em all. PETER could you post a pointer to the fundie website, I wish to vent some frustration their way. - 17:07:17 on 11 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:STEVEN: Here's another site but this time agin'xitianity and god, in case you've not seen it, its loaded with some good immediate biblical references that pretty well illustrate the ludicrious position of the xtian religion. - 18:23:07 on 11 Feb 98 GMT

PETER---STEVE:--Alright, there you go. Give 'em what fer! Tell me what handle you use, so I can be in there with you! - 18:37:20 on 11 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:ANY: Proceeded into theology chat, I'm Aman, said as "A man" - 19:12:24 on 11 Feb 98 GMT

Steven:PETER<<>> I went to the site you pointed to and that site is screwed up. I can not tell when anyone posted anything, or when I posted anything. Weird! Mabey you can esplain it mon. - 19:14:10 on 11 Feb 98 GMT

Steven:PETER/CARL<<>> my handle is Bones. - 19:15:29 on 11 Feb 98 GMT

Steven:PETER<<>> man are there some really stupid people on that chat board. - 20:40:52 on 11 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:STEVEN: Your comment is a kind comment for the brainpower at that site. - 20:52:51 on 11 Feb 98 GMT

PapaSam:MARLENE. I don't care for the term 'killing'. To me, and I think to most people, it implies a wilfull murder and an unwilling victim. I feel 'assisted suicide' would give a clearer distinction of what we're talking about. - 21:50:20 on 11 Feb 98 GMT

PapaSam:STEVEN. I think we have a problem. If we don't test for drugs how will we know if they're using steroids? - 21:56:23 on 11 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->SAM..why not just call it what it is: euthanasia. - 21:58:28 on 11 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:J/P's; been at a new playpen, most o'the day, the religious types do they do all they can to appear flakelike on purpose, trying to outdo the other, are they having a doofus contest? - 22:51:37 on 11 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->CARL...I used to rabble rouse at xtian sites, but the amusement wore off very quickly when I realized how pathetic most of those on those pages are. BTW, my handle on Theochat is "twitsru" (you know, twits are you). - 23:31:18 on 11 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:JOETTE; So true, information and dialogue- statan stuff! Any thoughtful person gets bored very quickly - 23:36:48 on 11 Feb 98 GMT

PapaSam:JOETTE. Euthanasia also covers putting the subject to death without his concurrence. It would include the mentally ill, people in comas, and children. While I would not want to live 'brain dead' i don't feel I have the right to impose my belief on others. It boils down to a question of ethics, and a very tricky one. It is not my obligation to provide physical care to some stranger in a coma, but my tax money goes to the hospital to support the care. I have no objection to that. There have been court cases on 'pulling the plug'. In one case the family wanted to do so and when the hospital refused to do so, the family had to go to court for authorization. The hospital was afraid of some legal liability. I think we've just opened a whole new can of worms. - 0:21:20 on 12 Feb 98 GMT

Adam KISS MY ASININE--->:Mean Marlene���� I have no idea why you felt like turning abusive in response to my post. Anyway, I'll try to maintain the high road. So, say you, all non-mercy killing is barbaric? How about defensive killing? Would it be barbaric to assassinate Sadam Hussein, if reports of his chemical weapons abilities are accurate? Is the killing of armed forces, say, to repel an invasion, barbaric? Moving on to the revenge thing, I will acknowledge that many Joe Sixpacks want killers dead out of vengeance, which is why they often want to inflict pain or allow the victim's familt to exact revenge, but that is not within the standard arena of death penalty debate among intellectuals. I would offer an emotionless appeal to reason (is your position similarly untainted by emotion?) that a society can enumerate certain acts so foul, so cruel, that no man yet has fought with it and lived. Bones of a full 50 men lie strewn about its lair. So if you doubt you courage or your strength, come no further, 'cause death awaits ye all with big, pointy, nasty teeth. Ooops! A holy grail tangent there. I meant to say so foul, so cruel, that the perpetrator simply deserves death as the ultimate gesture of repulsion and disapproval of his or her acts. No revenge, no appeal to emotion. By the way, you must read the grail stuff with a heavy Scottish brogue. - 1:04:12 on 12 Feb 98 GMT

Adam NOT POT TO---> PISS IN:Smokin' Steve: I think this has come up before, but I still do not perceive prosciptions against using drugs as particularly religion-based. To be sure, some theists must oppose drugs as immoral---many oppose alcohol---but there is plenty of secular opposition to drugs. Your assertion simply does not bowl me over. Maybe we need to hash over this issue some more, bud. I'll reefer the right honorable gentleman to the reply I gave some moments ago. How, high are you? Well, I best spleef now. - 1:11:00 on 12 Feb 98 GMT

Adam ALL THE TEA THAT'S FIT TO PRINT--->:Hey, a former NY Times exec. has been named the new CEO of my company. His name is Pollack. Sounds fishy to me. STEVEN: I dare say that I know enough of Chinese Communist Party policy to criticize its human rights. It is true that the notion of individual rights was developed primarily in Western philosophy, but to dismiss it as an alien concept in the East or the Third World is to perpetuate human rights violations against people simply because they always have had such rights trampled upon. But that's no ordinary rabbit! Look at the bones! - 1:20:33 on 12 Feb 98 GMT

Jesuit:PETER: Are you only able to throw rocks at other cases. or do you have one of your own to present? In other words, when it comes to matters of ethics, what is your point of reference? How did you arrive at the conclusion that it is ethical to be ethical? - 2:30:11 on 12 Feb 98 GMT

Adam BLESS YOU--->:Jesuit: Gezundheit! - 2:58:36 on 12 Feb 98 GMT

PETER :Jesuit--Man's Life. - 3:05:29 on 12 Feb 98 GMT

PapaSam:JESUIT. Why does your church look upon women as garbage? Or don't your saints represent the church? Here are a few quotes by your saints. St. Chrysostum: "Woman is a necessary evil." St. Jerome: "A woman is the gate of the devil, the road to iniquity, the sting of the scorpion, in a word, a dangerous species." St. Gregory: "Woman had no comprehension of goodness." Did you know that the Council of Macon in the year of 581 debated whether woman had a soul or not - whether she was a beast or human being. Don't take my word for it. Look it up in your church history. And if you are a true Jeesuit you should consider having yourself castrated as some of your namesakes did as the final defense against the evil of temptation. - 6:23:10 on 12 Feb 98 GMT

PapaSam:STEVEN. I know our government is not perfect. I know many of our laws are foolish or unjust. But our system of government is still the best one around. The xtian far right is doing its best to take over and break down the wall of separation between church and state. It's up to us to fight them. But despite our problems you will find people from all over the world coming here as immigrants hoping to become citizens of our country. I know of only one person renouncing his US citizenship. He applied to England for citizenship. I don't rmember his name but he was very wealthy, I believe a billionaire. You may be pissed off, but I still think you prefer the US to any other country. - 6:37:33 on 12 Feb 98 GMT

PASSING THROUGH>..........: Jennifer Ringsley on www.jennicam.org has to be congratulated. A shoolgirl who sticks a camera in her bedroom and places the results on the net. Yesterday Matt Lauer of NBC stated that upwards of 600,000 hits a day are the norm. Her second site is for "Super access" led Last week to 5500 desperates paying $15US to retrieve shots of her coming out of the shower etc. 15 x 5500 is $80,000+...I like this capitalism. Nothing to do ith God, but she's fairly attractive. - 9:40:16 on 12 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->SAM..since our gold medal has been reinstated, I am waving my flag around. If your government system is "the best one around", why is it that Canada has been named the #1 country to live in four years in a row by the United Nations? Please, you guys, look past your own borders for a change! - 11:06:20 on 12 Feb 98 GMT

Steven:SAM<<>> I do not know what it is like liveing in other countries. I work with people from France, Spain and Canada. Each of these people believe that their country is the best to live in. I guess it is an opinion thing. I do know that this is the land which my family has lived on for more generations than I can count. The only solution for me is, if I do not like what is going on to change it, or die trying. - 14:40:08 on 12 Feb 98 GMT

Steven:ADAM<<>> there may be people that are against drugs per say. However, if they do not like them then don't do them. How difficult is that. The US was the first country in the world to attempt to make substances illegal, according to Freud. In reading Freud (i hope i spelled his name right, geez) he believes tht it is a doomed venture, and he is right. The war on drugs is a loseing venture, I would go as far as to say it is LOST. We spend millions of dollars fighting the WAR ON DRUGS and what has it gotten us. It has filled our prisons to capacity with non violent offenders. Useing drugs is a victemless crime. It is called supply and demand, people demand drugs and they will be supplied. There is nothing that the US gov. will ever do to stop people from takeing drugs. People have been takeing drugs for thousands of years. The prohibition on drugs is no different than the prohibition of alcohol, and the exact same thing is happening. Greedy people are takeing control of the selling of drugs and becomeing rich. These people make the drugs (crack, heroin, cocaine, methams etc..) with no thought to the safety of the user. I never ceases to amaze me that the same people that are for drugs being illegal, will go out, drink a fifth of scotch and smoke a pack of cigarettes. These are for more destructive drugs than the majority of narcotics. As a matter of fact 450000 people die a year in the US alone from cigarettes. Compare that to all the people that die from narcotics and it is laughable, 300 per year. Let us then move on to alcohol shall we. How many people die from alcohol related accidents or death directly form over doseing on alcohol. Anyway the point is ALL drugs should be legal. If a person wishes to tie up their arm, shove a needle in a vein, and shoot up heroin in their own fucking house then they should be allowed to, it is their own fucking body. If a person is out at a park and wished to light up a spleef, they why the fuck shouldn't they be able to. Are they going to rush out an murder someone in a THC induced rage, I hardly think so. I am not saying that any drug is GOOD for you, but godamnit a government should not be allowed to make the choice for you. Native Americans have been smokeing marijuana and useing peyote for thousands of years, and then a bunch of christian fucks come around and say "Gee, we don't approve of you doing this, you must stop", then they go out and make it fucking ILLEGAL to do. I am sorry ADAM but there is absolutely nothing that you can say to change FACTS. - 14:54:13 on 12 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->STEVEN..I agree with you wholeheartedly. It should be a matter of personal choice. (and yes, you did spell Freud correctly) - 14:57:01 on 12 Feb 98 GMT

Steven:Once again sorry for the massacre of the English language! - 14:57:15 on 12 Feb 98 GMT

PETER:--STEVEN--Alright, I'm going to tell you WHY hockey is not only the most exciting game to watch--it is by far the best one to play. I have played organized baseball, softball, football, basketball, volleyball, lacrosse, soccer, bowling, tennis and hockey. I feel i am somewhat qualified to make an objective comparison amongst these sports. Hockey offeres the most "sweet spots" of all of them. By "sweet spots" I mean that exact point where one hits a baseball just at the right point where a homerun is hit almost effortlessly. All the relevant mechanics of physics just all fall into place. You have sweet spots in skating skills, stickhandling skills, shooting skills, checking ( body and stick ) skills, passing skills, --not to mention the PERPETUAL mental challenges one faces--which is somewhat shared by soccer and basketball--but certainly not in football and baseball. Because it is so difficult to PLAY WELL , due to all the skills one must possess and be able to use, again on a perpetual basis--mastering them to some degree is something that cannot be equaled in any sport. Combined with all of these skills one really has to be in top condition, and be prepared to engage in some really physical demanding situations, where tempers can easily flare--at a higher level--its a really tough game to play--but the subleties can make it or break it for anyone. Getzky is a perfect example of one who has mastered the subtleties--Mario Lemieux too. This is certainly a game one must play for a very long time to master, but the personal rewards are unparralled. - 15:26:14 on 12 Feb 98 GMT

RON...--->Passing through...: If you'll notice this page has no advertisement, it's not a BBS, nor is this page a newsgroup. Please don't leave trailers for money making adventures. I'm not in "it" for the bucks. I'm just hoping for a better understanding between humans. - 16:16:12 on 12 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:JOETTE/PETER, either of you on the other site I figured it was osmeone here, and at first thot it was ADAM since he wanted to do a game at such a site. Maybe later, we should coordinate? I thought we had a fun lil roll goin, too bad. - 16:32:45 on 12 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:PETER: Do you suppose any o'those believers will make the teutonic connection of your name-specifc reference to Aman? - 16:54:17 on 12 Feb 98 GMT

PETER:--CARL--Nope. - 19:04:31 on 12 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:ANY: if you miss the quack, he's on that chat site. It ought to be interesting how he treats those names. That good part of that site is that the quack can't take up space. - 19:24:17 on 12 Feb 98 GMT

Steven:Man am I haveing fun on the fundie site!!!!! - 21:43:35 on 12 Feb 98 GMT

PapaSam:JOETTE. Your man deserved that gold medal. He won it fair and square. Back to the flag waving. On what basis did the UN make that statement? Did it have to do with earning a living, freedom of speech, cultural activities, less wars or what? - 21:55:36 on 12 Feb 98 GMT

PapaSam:STEVEN. As you said in your post, they are FROM France, Spain and Canada but they are here for some reason. As many gripes as you have YOU are not living in France, Spain or Canada. - 21:59:36 on 12 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:STEVEN: that was fun, it was also interesting how they can mealy mouth about things. It was amazing to me to sit here and watch them post about, nothing! - 22:24:14 on 12 Feb 98 GMT

Moderate Marlene:ADAM the ABUSED- Now, I didn't MEAN to come across that way. The answer is, yes, it's all barbaric and totally avoidable. Do you think humanity can not learn to be non-violent? I do. Why a war with Saddam in the first place? I'm sure there have been and will be opportunities to apprehend him and lock him up where he should be, away from society but this does not mean one needs to kill him either. The UN should be as committed to saving lives and making them more comfortable than making monetary arrangements between larger countries and third world leaders. Remember, a few short years ago, Saddam was just such "a nice guy" when it came to the war between Iraq and Iran, at least as far as the UN was concerned. I'm very disappointed that Canada has agreed to participate in this upcoming attack. Mind you, who knows when it comes to the HMS Toronto, the country will have likely changed leadership by the time it gets there. ALL- Sorry if I'm not responding quicker but I'm busy, busy, busy. There will be more time in a few days. - 22:31:20 on 12 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->SAM..the United Nations makes their declaration on all aspects of quality of living, including earnings, housing conditions, life span, education, medical care and the entire gammit of what it takes to be a living, breathing human being. The only place we fell short was, I am sad to say, is the obvious glass ceiling for women in the workforce. - 22:58:51 on 12 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->MARLENE..stop being so busy, busy, busy. I miss you. - 23:00:20 on 12 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:JOETTE: at that other site it seems like they there, would instill a means to limit the particpants or "legislate" for certain ends. It is too bad that it limits the post size. - 23:04:17 on 12 Feb 98 GMT

PapaSam:STEVEN. While I would agree with you in theory about the use of drugs being an individual choice I feel that it does affect others in many cases. Crack is so addictive that many violent crimes are caused by users desperate enough for money that they will rob and kill for it. In one documented case in New York City a woman allowed her two children, four and six years old to be raped and sodomized to raise money for crack. Many women turn to prostitution and their boy friends pimp for them to feed their habit. Personally I dpn't give a damn if someone dies from an overdose or picks up AIDS from needle sharing, but when they want to kill me for the money I want no part of it. Maybe giving free drugs to users is the answer but critics say it might encourage kids to try it. I don't pretend to know how to solve the problem except to take the profit out of it, but the profits are so great that there are always people ready to take the gamble. Have you read about the Opium Wars, where Great Britain invaded China and forced China to allow the importation of opium? That's also the time when Great Britain stole Hong Kong. Now the far east is getting back to us and all the other western powers who forced themselves on them. They're growing the stuff and selling it back to us. - 0:30:39 on 13 Feb 98 GMT

PapaSam:JOETTE. Well, at least we attained parity in one area. - 0:34:29 on 13 Feb 98 GMT

PapaSam:JESUIT. Nothing personal, but did you know that the Jesuit order was abolished by pope Clement XIV in 1773? I wonder what hanky panky they were up to that the pope couldn't stomach it? How come you never came back after I told you about how your saintly boys looked at women? Are you perchance a woman hiding behind that pseudonym? Or did your wife see the posting and tell you to take your saints and your church and your ass and get out of her life? Looking forward to your explanation. - 0:50:56 on 13 Feb 98 GMT

steven:PAPA<<>>if it drugs were legal then the east, as you say, would have no more profit in selling the drugs. The AIDS people you are concerned about would have SAFE clean needles. I wonder if the majority of Hookers, pimps etc.. would increase or decrease if drugs were legalized. It appears in my eyes/mind that there has always been lady's of the evening, most with managers and some without. Hasn't that been a constant part of humanity since we began recording time. What would the gangs be getting into without drugs to make them fortunes, and risking loseing their lives over a natural substance. Believe this PAPA, nicotine is 10x more addictive than crack or heroine. Nicotine kills alot of people, but it does it slowly. The magority of people have a difficult time with the concept of time. They see the need for immediate gratification of their needs. So the thought of dieing from the cigarettes they are smoking, lets say in 30 yrs, just doesn't fase them. Enough of the speal, the point is some of the drugs that are illegal are more harmfull than others, I'm not an idiot. However, a person should have personal rights. A government should not have the legal right to tell a human adult what to put in his/her body. One last thing. The US has spent billions, perhaps trillions, on the war on drugs. Not one damn thing has been accomplished to slow or control the amount of drugs that come into this country. There is nothing that any government on this planet can do to stop human beings from takeing chemicals for an escape, or a method of relaxing, or a way to have fun. I think if our children were educated about how drugs can affect them, rather then being fed alot of fear tactics, the situation would get better. Living a life with drugs is no way of living. It is not my place, or anyones to make that decision for the individual. IMO :>} - 2:47:23 on 13 Feb 98 GMT

PapaSam:STEVEN. It's true that prostitution has always been with us. That's why they call it the world's oldest profession. People have been using drugs for a long time as well, in one form or another.What do you think would happen if drugs were decriminalized? Do you really feel the world would become a better or safer place? I doubt it. Human nature being what it is some other problem would come up. I don't see the issue being resolved in the near future. - 3:50:01 on 13 Feb 98 GMT

Grant:STEVEN-- PETER-- Pardon the delayed response. The "stupider" thing was lame humor. (lamer than I thought) I think that there is nothing special about xtianity. It is just another creation myth, etc. like countless others. It is a manifestation of human behavior. If xtianity magically disappeared tonight some other mythology would replace it tomorrow morning rather than atheism. It warrants no special consideration or contempt. It's more reasonable in my view to complain of irrational and superstitious thinking in general than to single out any particular mythology. - 4:21:35 on 13 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene..goodnight atheists:MO on drugs is..it's another crutch, a physical solution rather than the mental one of religion. Both leave one in a state of disorientation and both are controlling and therefore a profitable commodity. That includes alcohol BTW. I have no idea how to stop or curb the use of drugs or other mind-dulling agents but I don't think that legalizing them would be the solution either. How many alcoholics stand at the door of a liquor (sp) store waiting for it to open? How many of the same such stores are held up for a lousy few bottles of liquor? Would it not be the same for drugs? As to the other methods of getting the drugs or getting the money for the drugs, most of the hookers in Winnipeg are addicted to cocaine (and this I know what I talk about), some to heroine as well. Most will work for the cocaine if not the money and for as little as $15 worth. Most of the hookers also have been infected with Hep.C and some with HIV. Not from customers but from sharing the needles. There is a needle exchange program that many of the older girls use but it's the 14 and 15 year-olds that fail to use these programs for fear of being turned over to CFS. Naaaa! I don't think drugs should be legalized. I've seen and continue to see many young lives ruined at at risk. - 5:40:46 on 13 Feb 98 GMT

PapaSam:GRANT. The main thing I dislike about the Judaeo/Christian religions and their bible is their degradation of women. It was the first thing that turned me to atheism. Just a simplle little thing. I was a voracious reader as a child and at twelve years of age I was reading the bible and it referred to women as unclean. I knew my mother was clean. she bathed regularly and kept a clean house and saw to it that I was clean. I had three sisters and they all looked pretty clean to me. I then went back to the beginning and when I looked at the story of Adam and Eve I realized how ridiculous the whole thing was. That's all it takes to open one's eyes. Just one little thing. In the book "Women without Superstition" which gives brief biographies of women suffragists and freethinkers all the subjects agree on one thing. Christianity was the chief weapon in the subjection of women. Yet women are the strongest supporters of the church - then and now. - 6:37:11 on 13 Feb 98 GMT

Grant:PAPASAM-- I agree with that, and most of the other negative things said here about xtianity. Thing is, I think it's human nature we are bitching about. The world wasn't some Shangri-la until xtianity came along and ruined it. We could complain about wolves. They seem to act in a rather selfish manner. They behave as if the lives of other animals have less value than their own. They typically kill the offspring of wolves in their own group other than the offspring of the dominant female, etc. Pretty self-centered, but it's their nature. I think there must be some evolutionary advantage to religion and superstition. Anthropologists say that all cultures and societies have religious beliefs and creation myths. They have found none without, and they all share the same characteristics. - 13:18:38 on 13 Feb 98 GMT

Bill...:GRANT, I saw a program on tv recently that said that religious people live longer lives. Perhaps our survival instincts and higher mind levels have, through evolution, created "teddy bear" comforters to allow us "peace of mind" and thus relieve us some from the "fear of death." Philosophies and religions are a denizen of higher mind levels and are probably quite natural. Personally, I would rather have understanding and wisdom, rather than comforters. I realize though, and accept, that not all are of the same mind. - 14:40:29 on 13 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->TO ANY..back to what we talked about last week. In a town not far from where I live, a 10 year old boy succumbed to injuries that he suffered as a result of being hung from a coat hook in his school's washroom last week. He was in a coma until they pulled the plug. Apparently other children were involved, but now the parents of these kids are blaming the incident on either the influence of the Home Alone movies, or a commercial they saw during the Superbowl. Tell me, shouldn't the parents of these children feel some responsibility about the death of this boy? I am very annoyed at the "well, my little Johnny could never do something like that" attitude. It's time people start taking responsiblity, damnit! - 14:44:05 on 13 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->SAM..prostitution is not the oldest profession - apple picking is. LOL! - 14:47:26 on 13 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- Yup! according to the yics, apple picking is woman's first "real" job! Notice how she did the work of picking it and all he did was reap the benefits. The samr horrible incident with the kids happened here a few years ago too. I don't wholly agree that these kids didn't get their ideas from movies as I as a kid when playing "cowboys and indians (again excuse` Steve)" took a whole bunch of my ideas from the shows. I think the big problem is that these kids aren't taught the dangers of these stunts. I dug this huge hole in the bush path as a trap for the cavalry and one of the kids fell down it and broke his arm. Shit did I get it! I never even thought of the consequences as a kid. - 14:58:36 on 13 Feb 98 GMT

0lly:hi there,please can some one help.what is the world percentage of muslims .i was told 90%, that cant be right surly.( scary if it is)waiting for answer thank you. - 15:33:27 on 13 Feb 98 GMT

olly:no reply, or looking i hope. - 15:38:47 on 13 Feb 98 GMT

PETER:--JOETTE-- I woulsd also like to add that that "hanging incident" occored in a CATHOLIC school. Why don't the parents look at the shortcomings of the morals taught by their religion being the responsible agent here, instead of these media influences? They just assume that their beliefs outline an infallible moral code, when in fact its inevitable prescence in the school and home life of these children was evidently toally ineffective in preventing the actions of these kids. - 15:57:01 on 13 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:GRANT: You mention shangri-la, for a coupla'days at the xtian site, it was very interesting to me to watch them exchange words, as I inscribed of it, it seemed, almost as if they said nothing. What came to mind was watching some nature program on elephants, the host says quietly,'their low rumbling noises are thought to be a way of communication' of course I'm wierd. BILL, man this book I'm readin'says that at the height of xtianity the dark ages, that outside the ecclesiastics no intellectual advancement existed. In fact, the general maxim o'the times for non-ecclesiastics was,"Ignorance is the mother of devotion." GRANT, that is the point a good point, it is only the human nature that we are, I am for certain, concerned with or about. - 15:59:30 on 13 Feb 98 GMT

Bill..:CARL, Survival of the fittest brings an early death to the less fit. Overall though death (entropy) will rule over us all in time and is quite natural, whether we like it or not. Death is a necessary part of the survival of the planet in general. If everyone could be saved to live on, the planet as a whole would die when nature's resources were overwhelmed by human pollution. Self-interest IS our Middle East policy (ie oil). If Saddam is bombed say or some murderer is executed, it is only a natural process for one animal/human to survive over another or one country/race to have dominance over another. Saddam himself kills to survive, as do the murderers. To exercise moral judgement over this survival determinant of nature is to be acting on a higher mind level, be it philosophical or religious. Can or should we really interfere, to any degree, with determinants in nature? - 17:11:04 on 13 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:OPEN: After observing the religious talk, it is interesting to me, because they seem to not want to improve. I'm in the dark as to what you here have read and how you understand certain mental operations- of course, but imagination is it as the relationship of the mind to the mind. Reality that is something outside our particular sack of cells? The religious types what do they mean to have by that kind of thinking about thought to thought and no outside reference? Here, I see things outside and many things of it come to mind, how do they do their god/jc/holy ghost/resurrection, etc., stuff? That is an interesting query to me, how do their minds work, what is the process for that that allows one to end as one to think that they are a religious believer? - 19:23:40 on 13 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:OPEN2: Of course I don't expect an answer as its very vastness- I think so anyway, is such multi-functional, operational unending possibility, that in an act of unsanity you'd go ahead and figure that there has to be something there, and not just its vastness. To say again, that had to be one of the most amazing things to sit before this monitor and watch them post their thoughts. I entered their world to see if one could say, how they knew a god-thing, but nothing. They seemed to like just comforting each other. - 19:39:09 on 13 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:OPEN3: You know that the religious ones in their elephant-like communication, and chimpanzee like hugging and flee pickin activity, this has me wondering, are you others right? Is the human really just an animal, or a featherless biped? - 19:43:38 on 13 Feb 98 GMT

PapaSam:JOETTE. I would agree with you, except for the fact that we both agree that as far as the apple picker goes, it was all a myth. I stick by my statement. It was a nice comeback though. By the way, what makes everyone say apple? I thought the fairy tale just said fruit. - 19:48:35 on 13 Feb 98 GMT

PapaSam:CARL. IMO Survival is the name of the game. Some Animals survive by eating plants and some by eating other animals and plants. No matter how high an intellectual level man reaches, he still must perform his physical bodily functions. In our minds we try to understand what to me is the non-understandable, the paradox of the universe, where it came from, where it is going and so on. The deist puts the 'blame' on his god, and he has no further need to think. The scientist goes as far as the "Big Bang" theory but in the final analysis cannot say where or how the primordial bit of matter came from which initiated it. As said, entropy will take over in the end, but will it be the end or merely a new beginning in a perpetual circle. - 20:07:01 on 13 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:P'SAM: That point, "blame", has a nice edge to it. So the religious types resist those as atheists or science because of the preferences or need of for relevant thought to reality? The latter point, is whatever it is, and it also represents a source for a logical-existence, instead of the mystical miracle world of the religious believer? Such facades- mystical miracle, are to blame- put the responsibility on, a god thing. But, do we not hate that, do we love them, or flag it with pity and regret, for such idiocy? - 20:48:36 on 13 Feb 98 GMT

PapaSam:CARL. Every individual is entitled to his or her belief, no matter how ridiculous I believe it to be. When they torture and kill to make others conform to their beliefs it is no longer a passive matter of entitlement. I don't feel it necessary to give a history lesson on the church, the inquisition, the treatment of women as creatures of sin, the killings of hundreds of thousands of women and girls as witches, and so on. Today in my country, the religious right is trying to break down the separation between church and state. They want to make this a christian country. That's what I have against christianity. Not the belief itself, but its followers. - 22:37:02 on 13 Feb 98 GMT

Bill..:PAPASAM, I think you are on the right track when saying essentially that everyone is entitled to his or her beliefs, no matter how far out these beliefs may be; but when they use these beliefs to convert or control others, then it becomes a problem. What is it about people's beliefs that cause them to feel like they have to cast their largess upon the world? Why can't people just have personal beliefs and use them for personal interest, without the need convert or diminish others? Is it because they really aren't convinced themselves, unless they convert others or does it take the "diminution of others" to make one "feel good?" Is it just a means to an end; Self-interest? - 23:19:35 on 13 Feb 98 GMT

PapaSam:OLLY. Look in any encyclopedia or the World Almanac. - 1:18:50 on 14 Feb 98 GMT

PapaSam:BILL. I don't have the answer. I think the underlying basis is fear of some kind. It probably varies with the individual. The fear of being 'overpowered' mentally may in some minds be akin to the fear of being overpowered physically, a psychological connction. Then it may be the old idea"If you're not with me you're the enemy". Behind it all may be the survival factor. Your guess is as good as mine. - 1:34:38 on 14 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->MARLENE..although you admit that you played rough games without realizing the consequences, did your aunt and uncle ever take the time to teach you the consequences of what your actions could be, or did they just wait until something happened, and then punish you for it? My point being, if guardians are doing their job in teaching their children the difference between safe and unsafe, the difference between real life and what they allow them to consume visually, a child will know the potential dangers of certain actions. What I take issue with in my post from this morning is that automatically the parents try to place the blame on anybody else but their children, and the part they may have played in the child's actions. In the meantime, there is a dead 10 year old boy. Even if the other children aren't involved, what message is being sent to these kids via their parents? They are now being shown that instead of taking responsibility for their part in the murder of a school chum, they are learning to come up with a convenient excuse. This, to me, is very wrong. - 2:46:03 on 14 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->MARLENE..further to the previous post, I must add that if I am positing a "holier than thou" attitude, it is unintentional. lord knows, I've got a kid with an attitude too, but I know that she would never place another human being in harm's way. - 2:48:26 on 14 Feb 98 GMT

PETER:--BILL--I think many, including the President of the United States, are very concerned about Saddam Hussein's beliefs. - 3:24:23 on 14 Feb 98 GMT

PapaSam:JOETTE. Every decent parent wants to protect his\her child. You do your best to teach them the difference between right and wrong. You also try to teach them not to take foolish risks and to behave in a responsible manner. But children are still children, even when they become young adults. They feel accidents only happen to other people. They are aware of the long range effects of smoking but ignore them. They know how harmful drugs are but they will experiment with them. Don't forget that peer pressure will be stronger than parental teaching in a large percentage of cases. We can only do the best we can and hope for the best. - 3:35:17 on 14 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE and PAPASAM- I have to agree with both of you! First, yes, my aunt and uncle told me think before I proceed to do something but to warn me of everything would have likely taken their whole day. I admit, I didn't think at the time and I was old enough to do so as well. As I became older, I was like Papasam has described, I took foolish risks even knowing the dangers. I think maturity (like over 25 LOL) helps to realize the risk factors. True some parents don't bother at all but I know I did as a parent. My son and his friend were wrestling fans and there was a wrestler that always had a 2 by 4, supposedly clobbering his opponents with it. I told my son, as well as his friend that he was just pretending to clobber someone with that board and that someone would be seriously injured if it were real. SO! what happens the next day, here I catch them hiding behind shed with boards in their hands trying to clobber each other with them! Point is, kids don't always listen. Many have to learn the hard way. Seems my kids picked up that habit from me. I agree, the parents shouldn't be "blaming" anyone. If the kids knew the risks and I bet some of them did but didn't truly believe the consequences, then they themselves are to blame if anyone is. I think it's good for kids to take responsibility even if it's a serious one such as this. Punishment, of course, shouldn't be as punitive as it is for someone more mature. Kids are kids, have been and always will be, taking risks even if told and shown the conseqences because as Papasam has said, "it won't happen to them". - 4:39:09 on 14 Feb 98 GMT

jaywilson--aka Phil O'Sofa (w/remote control):GRANT and CARL: Your earlier musings were a joy to read for the open-mindedness they display; yes, belief systems _are_ nit-picking, dung-throwing, nest-decorating, breast nuzzling, and all that, evolved to meet a more complex level of necessity. I've often wondered if belief creeps in where knowledge is no longer welcome; i.e. don't rock the boat. If so, then we have read in this forum from many persons with low thresholds of tolerance. Still, as Lyle Lovett notes so wryly, what would we be if we didn't try? Or, to borrow from Mr. Zimmerman's poetics if not his lexicon, "the answer, my friend, is growin' in the gene." - 12:15:42 on 14 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->jaywilson..positively not 4th street...you've got a lot of nerve (and so on)..it is not my opinion that a belief system is necessarily part of evolution or growing in the gene pool..rather, as Robert Z also implied..everybody must get stoned. - 14:05:02 on 14 Feb 98 GMT

Grant:JOETTE-- But is it the genes that decree that everybody must get stoned? - 14:16:48 on 14 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->GRANT...I don't think so. Do you need religion or other stimulant to keep you going? I don't. So, does this mean I have defective genes? (btw, I come from a long line of alcoholics, and I have made the conscience decision not to partake of the evil stuff, so that is why it is my opinion that it is how we use our brains that enables from remaining clear from crutches) - 14:44:36 on 14 Feb 98 GMT

Grant:JOETTE-- I heard on the news yesterday that the "peasant" villagers in the area where Che Guavara was killed are praying to him for rain. They call him "San Earnesto." The Catholics have long had the problem when spreading xtianity to other cultures of confining worship to only the "correct" deity(s). As you know, many Catholics wish to deify Mary . There are literally thousands of deities in human history, in all cultures. People are constantly searching for more shit to worship. There appears to be an inherent need in people for supernatural and religious beliefs, in my opinion. Not all people. It's not a question of defective genes. Not all people have brown eyes, but brown eyes are a human genetic trait none the less. I do agree that we can use our brains to see patterns in behavior, and to change them, as in controlling anger, etc. - 16:43:10 on 14 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->redux..in the previous post "conscience" should read "conscious" (tired from watching Canada haul in the medals overnight). However, my conscience would bother me if I hadn't made that conscious decision LOL! - 16:43:44 on 14 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->GRANT...but to me that represents "learned behaviour" as opposed to inherent behaviour. - 16:45:40 on 14 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->I should have continued. If we have evolved from animals (or plants as some think), where else would the need to believe in something come from? As far as I know, animals do not worship anything other than their next meal. (which I have done from time to time, especially if it involved a chocolate cheesecake) - 16:48:01 on 14 Feb 98 GMT

Grant:JOETTE-- The fish in my aquarium seem to worship me, particularly when I am holding fish food. They make me think of the bible; the worse I treat them (the less frequently I feed them) the more they appear to worship me. - 17:10:04 on 14 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene:GRANT and JOETTE- I think Dawkins has termed it a "meme". I'm with Joette that we are able to make conscious decisions but there are also inherited tendencies that determine our stress levels etc. In my family, depression is common. I'm highly emotional but the family I was raised with were not. My natural mom and grandmother are also. Lots of times, I felt like an alien in the family merely because of this difference. Neither natural mom, grandmother or I, self-medicated ourselves but I have cousins who are addicted to drugs and alcohol who have also inherited the tendency toward depression. So maybe it's a bit of both physical and psychological, the tendency toward needing a crutch. - 19:19:46 on 14 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->GRANT..I hope you don't have any pirranha. They might jump up and bite off your nose! - 21:10:30 on 14 Feb 98 GMT

PapaSam:ALL News item in today's paper (Feb 14th), a Valentine's day tribute? RUSHDIE'S DEATH DECREED Iran's chief prosecutor renewed the death sentence against British suthor Salman Rushdie saying "--the shedding of this man's blood is obligatory--any man who hears an insult to the prophet must kill the person who commits that insult." When the moslems sing their version of "Onward christian soldiers" they really mean business. - 21:16:22 on 14 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->SAM..Rushdie must be the greatest "hider" in history, as this has been going on for more years than I care to remember. Do the renew the death sentence as part of an annual celebration or something? I sure wouldn't want to receive a valentine like that. - 21:20:30 on 14 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE and PAPASAM- Have you read _Satanic Verses_? Aren't we lucky we have free speech? - 0:44:11 on 15 Feb 98 GMT

Bill..:PETER, While I could care less about Saddam's life or beliefs, I personally think it's probably a mistake to bomb him at this time. It's a different time now than it was back in 91'. To bomb him now would probably not kill him, and just garner sympathy amongst Muslims in the area. I think we should just be patient and keep him isolated for years if we have to. Let him make the first move. If and when he uses weapons of mass destruction again, then we would have more world support and we could nail him for good next time. Personally, I think our military just wants to field test our new and improved weapons. - 1:02:50 on 15 Feb 98 GMT

PapaSam:MARLENE. I for one have never read the book. The moslems are really carrying censorship to extremes!! They have certainly regressed since the time they were expelled from Spain in the late fifteenth century. - 1:29:34 on 15 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene:BIll- I agree with your field test theory. The point is, that all the other countries around Iraq hold weapons of this kind also, most especially Isreal(I always shit up on the spelling of that one) and Iran. I think the US fears Iran more than we think. They think that now they have the Saudi's on side that this will be their ally against Iran but..but..Arabs, no matter what their country will band together against the Persians. The Persians and Arabs dislike the west even more and there will be big time trouble if they ever join forces. Actually it is in the best interest of the west to keep the Middle Eastern countries bickering, egging one Arab country on against another. - 3:55:28 on 15 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene:PAPASAM- I read the book when it first came out and it is a satire on islam. I really need to read it again since having Arab friends and learning the language. So much culture is explained by the language. It's a much larger(?) language than English and more exact in word meanings. And an old language too. The Persians speak similiarly but not Arabic. Many words in Hindi are similiar to words in Arabic also. I suppose we would say regressed but to them they've become more "alah-ly". The Arabs were expelled from Spain but they are not the one's who have a hit out on Rushdie, it's the Persians. They are a little bit more fundie than the sunni. - 4:03:41 on 15 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:--->GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOD Morning Vietnam! Where is everybody? It's a bright but f*****g cold day here in southern Ontario! GRANT..have you bought a licence for your fish? - 14:37:42 on 15 Feb 98 GMT

PETER:--BILL--Why doesn't the US ( or the united nations forces ) first get their intelligence into gear, find this clown--and then implement the same kind of '"surgical attack" they puuled off with Noreiga. The people of Iraq do not support him, it would be like Dorothy, the Scarecrow, Tin Man and Lion, goimg into the witches castle and liquidating her. For the security of the Iraqi's and perhaps the citizens of the world, this has to be done--soon. WHo knows what the hell he's going to do next with all these toys he has. - 16:09:17 on 15 Feb 98 GMT

PETER:--BILL--Also, to nit-pick, like I enjoy to do occaisionally as you know, you are victim of the "implementation of a cliche which has evolved into a form which contradicts it's original meaning" . To say " I could care less" actually means you COULD CARELESS, so the object which you are addressing, does have comparable objects which you do hold in lower esteem. Originally, the expression was " I COULDN'T care less " which means there are no other objects you hold in lower esteem--you have pip-pointed specifically the lowest choice. However, this expression somehow evolved into " I could care less "--which actually means, or could mean, that there are, lets say, ten possible choices--you could care less than nine out of those ten choices--which actually then renders the expression " I could care less " being any any choice--including your BEST one--and NEVER your worst one. - 16:19:36 on 15 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene:PETER- I disagree to a point with the idea that the people of Iraq do not support Saddam. I think he has a majority support. But the idea of getting him out of there is a good one. I think the guy could get scary especially when cornered. - 20:43:28 on 15 Feb 98 GMT

PETER:--MARLENE--Oh, maybe the majority does but why would they? He doesn't give two hoots about them, other than using them as a means to his own ends. - 21:56:22 on 15 Feb 98 GMT

PapaSam:PETER. Someone once said "Never underestimate the gullibility or stupidity of people." The people of Iraq are no different than any others in that respect. I really see nothing to gain by attacking that country. I think every nation has biological and chemical weapons stashed away, including ours. I don't think Iraq will try any more invasions of its neighbors because it knows what the consequences will be. If such an event does take place we will then be justified in attacking them. - 0:35:52 on 16 Feb 98 GMT

PETER:--PAPASAM--Iraq had agreed to observe the resolutions after the Gulf War, and are not holding up there. End, they KNEW that if they refused to observe ANY of those resolutions--they were again subjected to these consequences. - 4:49:16 on 16 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene:ALL- Grant let me know that some "quotes" from our discussion is on that idiot's, Quietsun's damn religion page. I for one, left him a little message letting him know that he remains a f-in asshole. PETER- Yes, I agree that Saddam uses his "allahness" and his reptile like charm to keep his people close. If only they "knew" that there was no heaven to go to after their suffering. Everything they endure is in the name of allah who must have great love for their leader Saddam, for he still lives after the attacks of the infidels to the west. - 8:14:02 on 16 Feb 98 GMT

OLLY:i asked if anyone knew opprox, the persentage of muslims on our planet.wiating thankyou. - 10:20:36 on 16 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->OLLY..you missed the reply. It was suggested you look it up in a reference book. - 11:49:22 on 16 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->Suddam Hussein has no qualms about murdering his own relatives, so it is no wonder that the people of Iraq follow him. He rules by fear, and any one living there knows the consequences of speaking out against him. If he and his son were removed, I think there would be a change of heart by the majority of citizens of that country. I think they realize that it is because of him that people are already dying droves because of the sanctions imposed since the last conflict. - 11:54:50 on 16 Feb 98 GMT

Grant:OLLY-- Roughly 17% or one in six. - 12:49:35 on 16 Feb 98 GMT

Grant:CARL--CARL-- Your Friday posts made my day. As to your question "Is the human really just an animal..." I could argue that humans are much closer to chimpanzees in all respects than chimpanzees are to, say, houseflys, but how does one quantify the differences in brain function that allow humans to posit the existance of hidden beings to explain life's mysteries and to bandy about such concepts as ethics and beauty, not to mention the capacity to recognize similarities between the low rumbling sounds of elephants and theo-chat. In the end, it may just be a matter of semantics. However we choose to describe ourselves we remain unchanged. - 12:51:39 on 16 Feb 98 GMT

Grant:JOETTE-- A fishing license? Wouldn't be very sporting after all these years of chumming! - 12:52:42 on 16 Feb 98 GMT

olly:thanx grant. - 13:20:53 on 16 Feb 98 GMT

Joette (Happy President's Day to our southern neighbours...you guys get a lot of holidays!..:-->GRANT..I was only alluding to a skit from Monty Python, where John Cleese went to a registry office to buy a licence for his fish because he had one for his cat and dog ("It is an halibut") - 13:57:28 on 16 Feb 98 GMT

Bill..:PETER, Thanks for the lesson on my "careless" writing technicalities. I have improved over the last two years though, I think. Sorry I am late responding to your posts here, as I Got tied up at Valentines; uh… actually it was "with" Valentines, overtime at work, and a David Copperfield show last night. I tend to agree with Marlene & PS, concerning our policy with Saddam. Those Arabs overall, while they fight amongst themselves all the time, do not relate to us infidels in the west to any large degree. Only their economic and personal security self-interest encourages them to even deal with us. I mean, what kind of a human would eat such an unclean thing as a PIG anyway? Don't we know that their hooves are forked? How stupid of us in the west! If we act against any country over there, we should not have to "twist arms" of other allies, in the region or out of the region, in order to get them to come on board to stand up for humanity in general. It should be, as they say, "intuitively obvious to the most casual observer." - 14:00:43 on 16 Feb 98 GMT

Bill..:JOETTE, I'm not convinced that the sanctions are really hurting the people in Iraq. Saddam is hurting the people in Iraq! Parents should take personal responsibility for the welfare of their children, right? After all Saddam builds many new palaces each year. He now has about forty, I think, and wants to build a holy temple four times bigger than the one at the Meca, in Saudi Arabia. Saddam is just like any Mafia boss, who is motivated by power, greed, and personal security. - 14:15:12 on 16 Feb 98 GMT

James--->Bill...:It is my belief that the "twisting of arms" to get cooperation is a by-product of the lack of backbone, and character other world leaders see in our chump President. I watched an interesting political show last week that featured one of my all time favorite politicians James Baker. You probably remember him from the Bush Administration. It is his view that while publicly some of these nations come out against military action, privately they are for it. It is widely believed that we do not have it in us to see this through. We have a country full of Steven's who don't believe its our place to take up these causes. We've all heard his complaints and everyone else's' for that matter. Secondly, other world leaders look at Bill Clinton like he is a joke. Precisely because he his. Also, there is great concern that if we do anything, it will not be enough. Air Strikes are not going to cut it in the eye's of our allies. Problem is, that is all we are willing to commit. In my estimation that is plenty. We could level everyone of these "palaces" (In some cases several square miles containing hundreds of buildings easily capable of hiding chemical weapons manufacturing infrastructure and store houses. Additionally, we could completely destroy all communications, airports, trains, military complexes, etc. etc. This would hurt tremendously. The other thing we need to do more of is provide more support for groups within Iraq looking to topple Hussein. What is really really scary though is the recent talks between Iran and Iraq. Together they could cause the world a lot of grief in the name of their religion. So I guess the question that must be asked to people like Steven is, At what point is it considered justified to for the USA, the United Nations, and the entire world to strike? Would that be before or after the first Anthrax strike that kills 200,000+? - 14:38:28 on 16 Feb 98 GMT

James--->Joette....:I get 11 paid holidays throughout the year. This is the first time I have ever had Presidents Days off and frankly as an American, I am extremely embarrassed for my President and my country. The current office holder leaves me little to be proud of. Anyway, you are right. We have a lot of holidays. What is especially telling, since myself and most others don't get all these holidays off, is the massive decrease in traffic on the road during the "National Holidays". The roads go from 90% saturation to 40%. Why, because the people who do celebrate every one of these holidays are government employees and I am not talking about the military! Our government is the single largest employer in the world and all this has happened in the last 40 years. - 14:39:31 on 16 Feb 98 GMT

James--->Steven...:For substance sake...your still an asshole. - 14:41:11 on 16 Feb 98 GMT

James--->All...:How does an atheist reconcile with him/herself in regards to statements which state matter of factly that they know there is no heaven and they know there is no God. After all, this is not as simple as surveying the Earth to learn it is round? SO, how is it that you know what you have no real experience with? I understand that we prove things through the scientific method, but philosophy is not a "subject" that lends itself to physical science. Therefore it is not a provable position one way or the other. So how can you know without the benefit of personal experience. Again, Someone told you fire was hot, but until you got close enough to it to feel it warmth, hot meant nothing. So, now that we all agree that the existence can not be proven one way or the other, what if we could prove the existence of God? Never mind how, this is a what if. How real could a God be if we could prove he existed? Please hold off on the flames. I just want to ask some controversial questions to stir up a little conversation, not insight an atheist uprising. - 15:06:16 on 16 Feb 98 GMT

Steven:JAMES<<>>oh the loss of sleep, man it really beats me down that you think I'm an asshole, LOL LOL LOL. So who should bomb us for our chemical weapons, or nuclear weapons. Iraq takeing Kuwait was none of our business in the first place, oooops we had to make sure that we had our hands on all that oil, I forgot. The oil we have already wasn't enough I guess. These countries wouldn't call us the "Great Satan" for a reason would they. Mabey because just like christians, we have to kill anyone that doesn't agree with us. I sure wish I was in on Bakers 's little knowledge pool that allow him to know what other nations are thinking, LOL. Another question JAMES, if Mexico decided that they did not like the way OUR leader was conducting himself, would they look for ways to get him out of power. Why is it that the US needs to be the world police force? Why do we feel it is ok for us to have nuclear and chemical weapons, but the rest of the world is not qualified to have them. Are we the only ones who are responsible with them or what. Oh, i forgot, how many nuclear warheads have we dropped, and how many has Iraq dropped? Who is the terrorist nation JAMES? The US doesn't agree with Cuban politics, why don't we dispose of Castro and his pinky government? Ooooops, looks like we tried and failed. So we set an embargo against Cuba which doesn't affect the government, it affects the people. Then we help out Russia and its downfall, can't have the "Evil Empire" standing up against the righteous nation of the US of A. Now look how well Russia is doing with its capitalism and democracy. They are one of the poorest countries in the world, their Mafia is ruling in everything but name, the Russian populace is starving because a loaf of bread cost a million rubbles, with but a few filling their pockets and becomeing 'fat cats'. Ya JAMES the US is so good, LOL. It isn't very often that an idiot like you comes along, I am enjoying this. - 16:08:02 on 16 Feb 98 GMT

Bill..:JAMES, I am off on this holiday as well and, since the sun is shinning and it's in the 70's, I think I am going to go to the beach for awhile. We have had a lot of rain this winter, but only two light freezes back in early January. I too trusted James Baker's judgement. While I feel that Clinton doesn't have the credibility with the military as the two previous administrations, his problems with allied support seem to be more because Saddam hasn't invaded another country this time and he hasn't, since the last war in 91', actually used weapons of mass destruction. Unless he actually uses these weapons again or invades another country, then in the minds of some---IMO---, there probably isn't sufficient "just cause" for military action. - 16:24:55 on 16 Feb 98 GMT

Steven:JAMES<<>>How exactly do you think Mr. Hussein is going to deliver his Anthrax to the US, LOL. Regardless of what you believe, Sadam is not stupid. If he released anything of that nature on the US, we would probably turn his entire country into stained glass. That would be the typical US response, wouldn't it. Sadam and the Arabs do not hate the American people jerk, they hate the US gov., for good reasons. Because we didn't like Iraq's takeing of lands that have been disputed for hundreds of years, the US decides that we will intercede. So, we blow away their highways, their cities, their sanitation plants, their food storage warehouses, everything we can blow away we did. If you were an Iraq citizen would you care much for the US? It would be kind of like China jumping in on the side of Mexico, if we had another war with Mexico disputing the land rights to Texas. Pretty stupid huh. - 16:26:57 on 16 Feb 98 GMT

PapaSam:JAMES. Would you volunteer to be in the front lines? - 18:12:16 on 16 Feb 98 GMT

Steven:JAMES aka JERK<<>>This is reported in the LA times this morning: A decade before the current showdown over weapons of mass destruction, the US turned a blind ey e when Iraq used US intelligence for operations against Iran using chemical weapons, according to senior admin. and former intel. officials. The combination of Iraq's weapons of mass destruction and US intelligence eventually helped turn the tide of the 8 yr Iran-Iraq War in Baghdad's favor. ......."we knew they used chemicals in any major campaign," Although we publicly opposed the use of chemical weapons anywhere in the world, we knew the intelligence we gave the Iraquis would be used to develop their own operational plans for chemical weapons" Uhhhhhhhhh, JAMESYPOO, what does this make us asshole. This was during the Reagan admininstration. Also, only two other countries in the WORLD are willing to support us in any kind of military action, Canada and Great Britain. Not even the Saudi's will help us. Italy won't help, Russia won't help, Germany, France, etc. etc... will not help. So which countries are willing to help us jerkoff, none. IMO the US is all worried about Israel and a possible war between Israel and Iraq. IMO if the gov. of Israel was wiped off the face of the earth it would stableize the region. JAMES please dispute THESE facts, as you are so capable of doing. PAPA has a good question for you dick..oops I mean JAMES, do you want to fight on the front lines? - 18:23:52 on 16 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene:ALL- I agree with you Steven. Is the west any more causious when it came to bombing Japan. How many people suffered the radiation fallout? Come to think of it, at least some of Saddam's chemical weapons kill much more humanely than dying of radiation poisoning. Anyhow, does anyone realize that Saddam doesn't likely need high tech weapons to deliver chemical and biologial susbstances? He could have stores of them right here in the west to release as soon as the US declares all out war with him. I know I would find some way to defeat an enemy if my technology was limited and to store the weapons right inside the country one plans to fight against sounds like a good plan to me. There are lots of Arab sympathizers right here living in the west and they don't have to be Arabs from Iraq. I think James that the west has everything to fear if Iraq and Iran join forces. - 19:45:25 on 16 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->JAMES..re Baker's comment via you about other countries not having the backbone to support your country's aggressiveness, who it not be conceivable that other countries do not have the military resources available as the USA has? I know for a fact that some of the countries have asked the USA for proof of these "weapons of mass destruction" before committing themselves which your country has been unable to deliver. Therefore, before you and other aggressive Clinton supporters start firing your own verbal salvo, please study the facts a bit more thoroughly. - 21:28:48 on 16 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->BILL..au contraire mon ami. The sanctions are killing the citizens of Iraq. There is a cholera epidemic there, and they have no medical means to fight it. No UN supporting country is allowed to provide medical aid, and as a result, people are dying of various maladies associated with lack of fresh food, fresh water and the like. It is a humanitarian's nightmare there, but again, the citizens cannot speak lest they become the next person on the government's hit list. - 21:32:13 on 16 Feb 98 GMT

James--->Steven...:No Mas...No Substance...you don't warrant a second thought and your still a big stupid asshole that is incredibly predictable. - 22:33:03 on 16 Feb 98 GMT

James--->Peter...:You need to get a better picture at your website. I assume that is a picture of you? It's kinda of dark except for the shiney spot on top. LOL - 22:34:33 on 16 Feb 98 GMT

James--->PapaSam:What exactly are you asking? I think a sustained air strike with our capability would cripple Iraq and come close to eliminating its capacity to produce chemical and/or nuclear weapons. If you are asking, would I be in on the first sorties, if they would have me, I'd be there for my children's sake. I am not for an invasion and occupation therefore I would not be on the front lines of a ground war with these intentions. I hope that answers your question. - 22:35:23 on 16 Feb 98 GMT

James--->Marlene...:Steven amazingly mustered the intelligence to ask the same questions I asked when I first contemplated the USA's position on weapons of mass destruction. Who are we to say we can have them but you cannot not? I am not certain of all the facts, but it comes down to an agreement made at the UN between countries that already had the these weapons. There is an agreed upon criteria for the development of nuclear technology. These was recently discussed during the "North Korea Crisis". Basically, this means that developing countries seeking increased technology in this area must agree to certain usage and inspection rules. This checks and balances help keep things moving toward the positive aspects of technology development as opposed to the development for weapons and other such negatives. These are not American only inspectors and this is not an American only effort. As for chemical warfare, after WWI, The use of chemical weapons was seen as a war crime. This was later signed on by all the nations of the UN when it formed. The US has never used chemical or biological weapons. Agent orange was a defoliant in case someone wants to try to throw that out. As for the bombing of Japan. Again, this was the first and last usage of an atomic weapon. Hiroshima and Nagasaki are the only two places to ever take a nuclear strike. The cost was heavy, but would have been a lot worse had we invaded Japan. Having never died of radiation poisoning, I have no way to compare the two deaths. I have read accounts of mustard gas attacks and frankly it sounds very very painful. I think your right though, if he has the stuff, it's already here. Also, If Iran and Iraq put there differences aside (not likely despite the religious link), the entire world has something to worry about especially those Arabs who supported the Gulf War. East, West, North, South…no place will be safe. Another scary thing to consider is how ignorant the American public is of how or why a war gets started. Take ignoramus for example. It is his belief that the US stuck it's nose in where it did not belong in regards to the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait. That scares the hell out of me. Are people so ignorant that they don't understand simple matters of state? For example, do you think Saudi Arabia was excited about the invasion? Israel? Europe, etc? Do you think we are the only ones who said…"that cannot go unanswered"? Do you think it was a knee jerk reaction by the US to secure 10% of it's oil supply? Or look at his ridiculous estimation of what the US response would be to a chemical attack on the US. Granted it would be war, but an all out nuclear strike…..PLEASE!!!! Look how easily he accepts that the Arab nations of the world consider us the "Great Satan". I think I may have heard that from Louis Farrakhan once or twice and one other, but, in the oil business I work with these people often and the average joe Arab who is not trying to be the leader of a holy war and get air time, is just trying to make a buck and feed his family. They are grateful for our investments and our friendships. I'd say ignoramus, like many other Americans is conditioned by the media instead of his own independent thought and experience. Even in situations where we as individuals do not have access to the facts and have to rely on the information given from prominent statesman such as James Baker, ignorant Americans don't even understand that people like James Baker have first hand knowledge via face to face talks with nation leaders. We can't know it all and we must trust the judgement of our elected leaders and their appointees. In today's case where good judgement from Presidential leadership is in short supply, I can only trust my own judgement. My judgement tells me we (the world) better do something sooner rather than later. While Hussein has never used nuclear weapons, we know he has used chemical and biological weapons and the likelihood of a reoccurrence is high. I know I should not have to state the obvious, but we have a few slow learners in the group. Again, I know its obvious, but can we really expect a nation where all property and business was owned by the state for nearly a century to flip a switch and have instant free enterprise, capitalism and a McDonalds at every corner? NO, but apparently some people in America think it's possible and don't think twice about espousing it to the world. In a word, EMBARASSING! Do me a favor Steven, don't tell anyone your from Texas OK? On a final note, the LA Times and any other news organization is going to have to do better than "high officials said" " senior admin" said…what does that mean, there over 65? Who were these people who said these things? You see what I mean, the media says "Ranking Officials said…."and people like ignoramus lap it up like mothers milk. Actually, the story is plausible, but then so is god. Oh, and one last thing, Israel is a country capable of wiping Iraq out all by themselves, provided none of the others Arab nations get involved. Perhaps Steve has never heard of the 7 Day War in which Syria and Jordan got their respective asses stomped by little old Israel. - 22:37:04 on 16 Feb 98 GMT

James--->Joette...:I agree, no one has produced a chemical weapon from Iraq. Perhaps if he would adhere to the UN resolutions we would find one in these "palaces". Have you seen the satellite picture of the many square miles these "palaces" use? I'm sure James Bond is sneaking around at this very moment. How long should we go allowing Hussein to tell the rest of the world to kiss off. Also, it is highly probable that under current conditions publicly, leaders say one thing, privately they say another. Be that as it may, what they say publicly is what counts….What, no medical aid…Can you give me some information that might help validate that statement? Where did you here this? - 22:38:08 on 16 Feb 98 GMT

RICHARD:I pray you all did not think I was gone, believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved. For Jesus has risen rom the dead, and is able to set you free from the bondage of sin. You will be FREE INDEED - 23:08:47 on 16 Feb 98 GMT

James--->Joette...:I'm not saying these other countries don't have the backbone, I am saying they don't beleive we have the backbone to stick to the finish. - 23:12:03 on 16 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene...and it didn't flock off for long..:OH NO! The Boid is back! - 23:15:30 on 16 Feb 98 GMT

Bill..:SYEVEN, It's true that not many countries have signed on to a combat role, but this is not representative to the overall support. You left out New Zealand who agreed to a combat role. Saudi Arabia is still allowing planes on their soil for surveillance operations and other non-combat support. Others countries as well are involved in a non-combat role against Saddam. I agree that our policies are not so much of humanitarian conscience, but rather one of self-interest. We did support Saddam and looked the other way when it seemed like the fundie's of Iran, with it's holy war mentality, were about to defeat Iraq. Our self-interest, at the time, was to contain Iran and prevent them from overtaking and controlling the countries in the region and of course, "keep the oil flowing." Self-interest is according to nature's design and I see nothing wrong with this as long as it's mutual. These countries want the technology and money from the West to ameliorate their desert existence. It's a two way street and I see nothing wrong with kicking Saddam's ass if he invades Kuwait, say like he did in 91', as long as a majority of the countries in the region also support this operation. Israel is another story and we could write a book about them. In short we---our country---supports Israel because we have too many smart American Jews in high positions of wealth and influence in this country. Our country has been used over the years by the Jews to regain and help protect their homeland. After all Jesus was a Jew and many Americans think it's Gods will to protect Israel. This is a religious and political problem situation that I don't sign on to. Gotta run, bye! - 23:39:53 on 16 Feb 98 GMT

Bill..:JOETTE, Even with sanctions, Iraq is allowed to sell something like 2 billion dollars worth of oil for food, medicine, and other humanitarian supplies. Iraq is also selling additional oil, despite the blockade, by navigating in the coastal waters of it's neighbors like Iran. This blockade is by all means not total and Saddam could have had normal relations with the rest of the world long ago if he had allowed total access for inspectors. Besides, what else would you recommend doing? - 0:09:48 on 17 Feb 98 GMT

Bill..:PETER, Do you mind posting your web sight, that James mentioned, again? I must have missed it. Thanks! - 0:20:55 on 17 Feb 98 GMT

James--->Bill...:http://www.philosophypeterkinane.com - 1:15:36 on 17 Feb 98 GMT

PETER:--JAMES/BILL..if I have a website, this is the first I have heard of it. - 2:25:17 on 17 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->RICHARD..guess what? You weren't missed! How's the old lake of fire doing these days? Oh, and I should tell you. You inspired me so much with all that talk about a gold ring in a swine's nose that I went out and got my nosed pierced too! - 2:27:56 on 17 Feb 98 GMT

James--->Peter/Bill...:I'm looking for the post were I got the URL. I apologize for assuming this was your site Peter. - 3:12:22 on 17 Feb 98 GMT

PETER:--JAMES--Well, if the guy sounds pretty smart, then I'll say its mine - 3:18:15 on 17 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->BILL..I have not been elected to make decisions about Iraq, so whatever I recommend is moot. However, I have elected officials on this side of the border who did not include military action in their platforms during campaigns, so I have done what all citizens should do when a decision is made that I don't agree with. I go to my elected official and voice my concern, and I write editorials for my local newspaper. I find much more comes out of my own positive action than merely bandying words about on a chat page. - 3:26:20 on 17 Feb 98 GMT

RICHARD:Joette; You should not call yourself a 'swine' - 7:25:47 on 17 Feb 98 GMT

RICHARD:Joette; As to your question regarding the lake of fire ? It awaits ALL who deny that jesus is the Son of God, it awaits all liars who deny the gospel of Christ; which is the WISDOM of GOD. It was GOOD that you remembered me ! - 7:28:49 on 17 Feb 98 GMT

RICHARD:Just how many CHEMICAL weapons does the United States have ? now that is a question worth getting the answer to !!! - 7:31:32 on 17 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->RICHARD..I don't recall calling myself a swine, but I can be a pig when the situations calls for it. Nothing like mud wrestling! Were you in the local looney bin? - 11:30:23 on 17 Feb 98 GMT

Steven:JAMES<<>> cool, you got your nose pierced. LOL - 13:22:00 on 17 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->STEVEN..that was me dummy! - 13:48:43 on 17 Feb 98 GMT

Steven:JOETTE<<>>woooooops! That was meant to go to you, doh. - 14:43:24 on 17 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->CARL/STEVEN..you guys are little too quiet today. Are you wasting your time on Theo garble, or are you actually doing some work today? LOL! - 16:08:33 on 17 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:OPEN: finished A.E.Taylor "Does God Exist" the attempt began and thru-out it was to be a scientific view, but as far can be said the effort was to discombobulate science and to leave the reader with a god-thing as that still standing. Taylor seemingly turned querys of religious faith and other emotional doings, back at science. What does religion do? I read nothing of or godlike in the book. The only idea I liked that I hadn't read before related to truth went, "truth of the highest practical moment, etc." What he did not do was anything that might join humanity, as far as one can tell only science does that, and that being the mind. - 16:11:50 on 17 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:JOETTE: No for me, I also finished the Draper "Warfare..." book, thru-out it seemed to maintain an even handed view, but man its conclusion was a surprise, all the myth and superstition stuff atheism knows of was the basis of his rejection of 'Italian Catholicism' here Draper wrote this in 1876. For myself, after the theochat viewing and exchange it was as I've said amazing, to me. I spent a few days reviewing various opinons on signs and symbols to try to see what those folks were trying to do. Taylor did his darndest to avoid such religious obscurantism. The religious believers do make the most of meaningless sounds. - 16:40:09 on 17 Feb 98 GMT

Steven:JOETTE<<>>I am trying to get some work done today, my postings may be sporatic this week. :>{ - 17:06:20 on 17 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:OPEN1: Religious belief as a thing cannot look back at history. If it did it would see that a pope separated Russia and religion, @1866. The pope had issued a letter to leaders of the world of then, informing them of his infallibility and also that the world was his, via jc god et.al., and except for Prussia most world leaders rejected the position claimed in the letter. The pope however did most of the churches biz w/Europe but not Russia, so the pope said, like the US did to Saddam, they can't play. It has been the same since, religious belief cannot look back. - 17:12:52 on 17 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:ANY: There is this pile of freshly deposited shit on the ground, two flys buzzing about see it and gleefully light upon it, to them nothing is better than a fresh meal so they begin to dine. One consumes her fill sooner than the other and begins to clean herself, inadvertantly she farts. The other says "do you mind, I'm eatin yet!" - 18:16:41 on 17 Feb 98 GMT

PETER:--CARL--That's agood one! Heres another fly/shit joke I actually saw asa cartoon in in Natinal Lampoon at least 25 years ago. It hd this giant fly sitting like a person in a really classy restaurant with a bib, knie and fork in each hand with plateful of shit in front of him. This very stuffy old waiter was standing beside him, wearing a coat and tails. Thge fly said to the waiter " Now could I have a tall glass of piss to go with this?" - 18:26:47 on 17 Feb 98 GMT

literal bathroom humour! - 18:31:31 on 17 Feb 98 GMT

--ya,and? - 18:36:33 on 17 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:JOETTE: I see you're flirtin' w/RICHARD again, lake o'fire stuff- on the theochat one o'its participants said he saw a dead person come back to life via prayer while it- the corpse, lay in his church and that is why he was a xtian. Those religious believers they spin quite a tale. Maybe the RICHARD has raised some dead hisself? - 19:15:59 on 17 Feb 98 GMT

Steven:CARL<<>>Ric-hard's delusion is far and beyond anyone's (beside QUACK) in the theo chat room. - 19:24:03 on 17 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:STEVEN: Your posts certainly had them flustered and abuzz. It had been several years since I'd been in such a site. They are a static bunch. In Taylor's book he seemed to be poking fun at the way science has to "change" its position on a regular basis. But, it seems to me that is the way o'the world. Those theochat folks, they sure could say a lot,e.g., bless you, pray for you, you have my prayers, etc. is that really a communication of anything? - 19:30:51 on 17 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->CARL..your post describing the resurrection is hilarious. Do you think anyone in the congregation died of a heart attack when it happened? I mean, it would be a shame to waste a perfectly good coffin and flowers, don't you think? - 21:45:31 on 17 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->PUDDIN'...just in case you missed this lately.. - 22:01:02 on 17 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:JOETTE: That individual was serious, sad to say. - 22:12:11 on 17 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->CARL..and probably stoned on LSD at the time of the resurrection! - 22:19:36 on 17 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->BILL..just being nosey..do you have a website? - 22:20:40 on 17 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:ANY; On the news I saw a report of some religious types against BC attackin'Saddam. I was surprised since xtians love dyin'and all so's to know their maker in a close encounter of the real stuff. That is why I'm surprised at them prayin'and carrin'on and whatn'all, if anything they ought to want to die, if that god thing is wunerful. - 22:31:26 on 17 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:ANY2; The document that got Russia placed on th outside looking in was said titled, "The Encyclical Letter and Syllabus" @1864. I haven't checked this out but that is according to Draper. The letter also promulgated a series of points against the then modern world, one point said the parents right to educate their children outside of the church was denied. The church declared the faithful must now sacrifice to the church property, life and and their intellectual convictions. Gregory XVI denounced freedom of concsience as an insane folly and freedomof the press a pestilent error. In 1854 the religious powers that be, declared the immaculate conception a dogma. What a fun bunch to have at a party. - 23:23:10 on 17 Feb 98 GMT

Bill..:JOETTE, I don't have a website, but will probably set one up some day. It's just not a priority right now. I would also like to set up video conferencing at some point when more people have them. - 1:36:14 on 18 Feb 98 GMT

PapaSam:RICHARD. Why does your church hate women? Have you ever read the nasty things said about them?It all started out with your Eve. You'd think your god would find some more dust to create her, but no, he broke off a lousy little piece of Adam's rib. That's what I call demeaning. Then he pulls off this bullshit with a talking snake and he hangs a label on her as the mother of original sin. This is passed on to make all women corrupt and seducers of men. Even YOUR mother is a sinner in the eyes of your church. Don't take my word for it. Read your bible. "Let your women keep silence in the churches." Did you know that your lover boy Jesus was a bloodthirsty bastard? Read Luke 19-27. "But those mine enemies which would not that I reign over them, bring them thither and slay them before me." Read what your saints said about women. Read St. John Chrysostom and St Jerome. Read about the Council of Macon which met in about 538AD which argue whether or not women had souls and whether they were beasts or humans. Read your own church history!! If you did you'd probably die of shock. In any case, stop trying to peddle your faith here. Go home and sell it to the women of your family. - 1:40:40 on 18 Feb 98 GMT

PapaSam:JOETTE. Re our talk the other day about Canada being Number One as the place to live - what's going on there. Secession talk. I hope it's settled peacefully. You sure don't need a civil war such as we had here. Apparently the French separatists are serious about it. It's not the first time the people of French descent wanted out. The last time it happened was a couple of hundred years ago when they left Acadia (Nova Scotia) and wound up in Louisiana. To this date the state of Louisiana is the only state to have parishes rather than counties. We love our Cajuns. - 1:53:55 on 18 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene:BILL- I haven't checked into your homepage lately. I must have the bookmark somewhere or if I don't NC will have likely put it somewhere where she could find it. I'm terribly disorganized! Or don't you have your homepage anymore?? - 2:28:33 on 18 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene:PAPASAM- I'm sure we all love some people of French descent here too but also English, Irish, Polish, etc. etc. etc. Their threats of separation are empty ones. It's rather like a spoiled child saying "If you don't let me have special privileges, I'll run away from home!". Sometimes the best thing is to let that child do just that to realize that the world does not revolve around them. Canada is a nice place to live, unless, of course, you want to buy a cafe in Quebec and put an English sign outside to advertise your daily special. - 2:41:07 on 18 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene:Anyone watch _Soul Man_? I don't think the Dan Akroyd(sp) belief and promotion of the belief in the supernatural is admirable but I must say the young "in-training" priest, Todd, is a scream. It's +3 and the snow has gone down at least a foot in the last few days. It's just beautiful for this time of year here. For those Americans who don't do the C-scale that's 38F. - 2:47:51 on 18 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene:PAPASAM- The Boid's mother likley wonders how she ever hatched such a Dodo. Now that could be an original sin if there were such an animal. - 2:52:14 on 18 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene:Since there's not much to discuss, here's a few abbreviations for email....(_!_) a regular ass (__!__) a fat ass (!) a tight ass (_._) a flat ass (_^^_) a bubble ass (_*_) a sore ass (_!__) a lop-sided ass {_!_} a swishy ass (_o_) an ass that's been around (_O_) an ass that's been around even more (_x_) kiss my ass (_X_) leave my ass alone (_zzz_) a tired ass (_o^^o_) a wise ass (_13_) an unlucky ass (_$_) Money coming out of his ass (_?_) Dumb Ass - 2:55:08 on 18 Feb 98 GMT

Al:Al:PapaSam...What a wonderful job obliterating Catholisism using their own bible as the implement. A JOB WELL DONE! - 3:05:35 on 18 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->PAPASAM..if you have somewhere heard that there might be a civil war is Canada, it is the first time I've heard about it. Since our military is a federal concern, Quebec would have no weaponry, except some brooms and shovels, so I don't think there would be much of a battle. I have explained the seccession thing to you previously, and I don't know where you would be getting the idea of a civil war. - 11:34:06 on 18 Feb 98 GMT

Bill....::JASON, MARLENE, JUST WONDERING, & OTHERS, While I mix regularly with christians at work and weddings--such as last weekend (what a wedding!, those Methodists really know how to give a reception. Open bar and all)--I am not bothered by their beliefs or judgements of me personally. Last week I took time to listen to a black co-worker christian who is very high strung and emotional when discussing religion. He even talks in tongues when he gets worked up in church. He of course listens to me with some amazement when I discuss some of my beliefs. To each his own!! I do think christianity, as Jason pointed out, will have to change and keep up with the times (ie diverse family situations, evolution, science etc). I am bothered by the 'Christian Coalition' trying to control everything in government or my personal life. I think people need to make their own beliefs--based on some scientific evidence--relevant to helping themselves to be a more positive and constructive individual. This attitude some christains have of 'we have to change the world to our belief system', is just a "feel good" thing that does little to ameliorate humanity in general. - 12:59:29 on 18 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:P'SAM: If there is one thing xtianity has done its been to skillfully adapt to prevailing circumstances. No god has been witnessed intervening or guiding or changing things "for" the jc\etc.believer types. Through the changes the watchers and caretakers always cleverly concoct doctrines to meet its particular ends. An example from the theochat site a self proclaimed elderly female inscribed that there was no conflict between evolution and the bible. Some of less wise disagreed with her post, but upon reading her post, its similitudes to those written for the error of geocentricity are pleasing to see, for me. They the religious belief types yield the only way the god thing continues is with ignorance, it is the mother of devotion.[a medievil maxim] - 15:40:41 on 18 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:ANY: of course it coulda'been the "father" - 15:57:08 on 18 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:ANY2: and it coulda'been the "significant other" - 16:02:40 on 18 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:ESTEBAN: The Canadians have a separatist action in the air, what is the tale in your neck o'the woods with the espanol speakin'types? I understand those types hold similar separatist notions, do you know if they want to be part of Mexico or just another country? It sounds like these kinds have the numbers, but do they have the intellect? The opinions of Spain, [such speakers?] that I read in history it has it that these kinds are not very intelligent. I don't talk to them unless they got long hair, legs and those beautiful moorish lookin'eyes. So compadre, can you tell more? - 16:59:28 on 18 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->CARL..it is the Quebecois that have separation in the air, not the Canadians. We are two different beasts. (Just trying to keep the record straight) - 18:40:55 on 18 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:JOETTE; Merci, are the 'Q' types really that different? - 18:48:40 on 18 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:JOETTE: Takin'a break, of the difference, for example the spanish types I kno'speak in favor of graffiti, they are very racial [almost kkk in interest] and they seem to lack a coherent identity, e.g., mexican spanish latino hispanic chicano et.al., - 19:09:12 on 18 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene..da da da ...da:Kind of feeling like I'm in the twilight zone here! CARL- Who's Estaban? BILL- That post sounds like it came from two years ago! Is it like those radio signals that show up years after they are sent? - 19:52:28 on 18 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:MARLENE: Thats espanol for STEVEN. - 19:53:36 on 18 Feb 98 GMT

Steven:CARL<<>>the Mexican communty here would never want to go back to Mexico, much less have Texas become a state of Mexico. They enjoy the work, and economy that Texas (US) has. There is a reason that thousands of illegal aliens cross the border from Mexico into Texas each day. Mexico is a poverty stricken country, there is no middle class. You are either a rich Mexican or a Poor Mexican, there is no inbetween. I would say that the hispanic community is not nearly as prejudiced as a black or white neighborhood. The Mexican family on average is a lot closer than that other races, other than Chinese. I live right next to the varrio in Dallas. When you drive down a largly hispanic neighborhood street on a weekend, you see all the kids outside playing together, all the family members are out on the front porch talking with neighbors drinking beer and haveing a good time. A hispanic neighborhood is very tight nit. All the neighbors know each other and watch out for each other. In contrast, if you are driving through yuppy N. Dallas or Plano, you may see some kids, but not many. The neighborhood when driving through a predominatly white area is reeeeaaaalllly quite, you rarely see any one outside, and if you do they are mowing the lawn, etc... Spainish speaking peoples conquered half the world less than four hundred years ago. I would never question their intelligence. Italy is a poor country, yet you don's say that Itallians are stupid. Also, do blacks lack identity, e.g.. niger, colored, blackie, african, afro american, negro..et.al. Or white people crackers, whites, caucasian, white bread, honky.. Or chinese chincs, asians, ... or native americans, redman, injuns, barbarians....Or Indians, dune coons, rag heads, etc... Or Jewish people, kikes, jews, hook noses, ... Or Irish, or English, or Russian, or Japanese (Japs, slants, etc..). I think that if of all the races in Amerika there is no races that are as prejudiced as whites and blacks (KKK and Black Panthers). - 20:05:17 on 18 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:STEVEN: That is what I meant with my query, and the kkk term was only for emphasis, the intellect thing was a concern because I wondered what the nature of that idea was all about. You brought up some points that I've heard and read of, so if one can generalise about that thing, my query, it is probably just some young folk lookin'for excitement and controversy? - 20:11:40 on 18 Feb 98 GMT

Steven:CARL<<>>the majority of mexican women are beautifull, until they hit 24. - 20:12:44 on 18 Feb 98 GMT

Steven:MARLENE<<>>Esteban is Steven in Spanish. - 20:14:24 on 18 Feb 98 GMT

Steven:CARL<<>>we have a border town called Mattemoris. This city literally means in Spanish, 'Kill the Moors'. - 20:15:55 on 18 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene:STEVEN and CARL- Thankyou! Now I know this is at least normal but that doesn't explain Bill's post from a couple of years ago. Anyway just for info sake Stephan is Steven in Fench. Get out of town Steven! When I visited southern Arizona, a little place called Nagoles (sp), there were lots of beautiful Mexican women over 24. - 20:27:31 on 18 Feb 98 GMT

Steven:MARLENE<<>>on average, it is just a local belief (the 24 thing). I have met many Hispanic women over 24 that are unbelievably beautifull. What is Fench? mon ami. - 20:40:39 on 18 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:STEVEN: This reasonably lovely spanish speakin'female was somewhat beside herself at knowing she about to pass into uglydom. - 21:36:21 on 18 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->STEVEN..Fench is what Quebecois speak with a lisp. - 21:56:06 on 18 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->Well you guys, all Spanish men are ugly, so I hope you are happy. - 21:57:19 on 18 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->MARLENE..funny, I had the same thought about Bill's post. I even went back a whole bunch to see where Jason had spoken, as I can't remember the last time he was here. It's like deja vu all over again. - 22:00:01 on 18 Feb 98 GMT

Joette (and last, but not least)..:-->SAM..I found your reference to loving your Cajuns fairly patronizing. Have you spent much time in Louisiana? I spent some time between LaFayette and Baton Rouge, and I found the Cajuns were treated fairly poorly by the other residents of the area. - 22:02:38 on 18 Feb 98 GMT

James--->Joette...:Have I ever mentioned that a large part of my father's family was from Southern Louisiana. My Aunt wrote a very good book called "They Came to Louisiana". It is a very interesting collection of letters and diary entries during the early settlement of the Louisiana. Just thought I'd mention it. - 23:56:27 on 18 Feb 98 GMT

Bill..:MARLENE, I have been at work all day and just now turned on my computer, so I did not post the one at 12:59. I did, however, write that post at least a year and a half ago. Of course, I can't say that I disagree with it all that much, ha! I've never had a homepage, but my son had one and put our family picture on it, which is the one you saw a couple of years ago. I liked your ass; uh, ass-abbreviations. I copied them to send to my kids. For some reason they were the first ones I thought of when reading them. They will be impressed, ha! Gotta run and watch the Ice Skaters in Japan, bye! - 1:23:30 on 19 Feb 98 GMT

PapaSam:JUETTE. I was not attempting to patronize the Cajuns. I knew several families and was quite friendly with them. - 2:09:49 on 19 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->SAM..you must have known my father too! I had a sister named Julie, and he use to confuse us, thus I have been called Juette often. - 2:26:34 on 19 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->JAMES..is that book in general publication, or was it more for a local audience? I would like to read it. (I love La., and if I could, I would live there) - 2:30:53 on 19 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->BILL..isn't it wierd seeing old posts pop up like that? It is a trick our old friend Grimwood does just to let us know he is still around. Maybe someone else is doing it, but I doubt it. - 2:33:10 on 19 Feb 98 GMT

PapaSam:JOETTE. I doubt that I knew your father, but I do have something in common with him. I will sometimes call my daughters by their sisters' names. It happens in most families. As to your statement about Quebecois and Canadians being two different beasts, you do share the same country. I have read that there is a strong separatist movement on the part of the Quebecois and that they are seeking a referendum. How do you personally feel about it? Would you object to the separation? MARLENE. How about you. What are your feelings in the matter? - 2:46:38 on 19 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->SAM..there have been two provincial referendums in the last 20 years, where the majority of Quebecers have opted to stay in Canada. There has been one national referendum where all citizens were allowed to decide if Quebec should be considered a distinct society, and it was soundly defeated, so that should give you an idea how we feel about it. This separation business has been around as long as I have been (19 years LOL!). It is an issue with a vocal minority only, and all it is managing to do is kill the value of our dollar and keep investment away big time. A separation would impact me directly, as I have family living in Quebec, and it would be sad if they had to pack and leave their life behind for the sake of Lucien Bouchard's ego being stroked. - 2:58:31 on 19 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene:BILL- Oh, sorry about that, I thought it was your page for some reason. Yup! Pretty darn wierd that post showed up here after all that time. I'm trying to remember all who were posting at the time that would even keep the post. I never do although sometimes I wish I did as when people leave like Richard and NC, they had so many interesting things to add. I notice you addressed "just wondering", maybe it's one of those xtians who hides behind such a name and collects posts in order to repost them as they themselves likely have nothing of substance to post. Quietsun does just that. He collects our posts and then posts them one his own boring little site to add a little excitement to it. Wierd..for sure. - 4:32:01 on 19 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene:PAPASAM- As Joette posted, we've had our little vote on how we feel about Quebec and their "special privileges". We all said "nope", your like the other 12 children in the Canadian family, no more special than the rest of us. Also as Joette points out, even the majority of the people of Quebec aren't interested in separating. IMO, they can leave if they want or they can stay if they want, but the rules are the same for all in the house of Canada. - 4:39:10 on 19 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene:PAPASAM- Canada isn't without it's excitement over the issue though. I suggest you read on the October Crisis. - 4:44:32 on 19 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene:JAMES- I'd be interested in that too! I love history, most especially when it's personalized. My family has gathered their history right back to the 15 century. I, personally, don't know any Cajun people but I love the food! - 4:48:11 on 19 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene:BILL- Those ass things were really cute. NC sent them to me, funny, my kids, especially one comes to mind too! - 5:22:36 on 19 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:ANY: seein's how you folks are lookin'at LA, I saw a news story o'some black woman who was gathering information on a language the old time slave blacks created. It was called the "Tut" language. The slaves o'then, were not allowed to read and learn [just what the catholic-religious types like] so what those ol'slaves did they practiced reading and speaking the read material, in that "tut" thing. That is a good example, to me, for the position that humans naturally want to learn, and religion is an act of them, he religious, choosing and preferring ignorance. - 15:29:30 on 19 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:ANY2: on the prior post, I checkin'about and around, as some folks do have schemes, e.g., any religion of choice. - 17:16:21 on 19 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->CARL..that is an interesting subject, the need for people to continue learning. Most of us here read and/or study so that our minds do not stagnate, but when I look around at the majority of people I know, they are happy to get whatever knew ideas they need from a Danielle Steele or Judith Krantz novel (or Stephen King and Robert Ludlum). I find that frightening! - 17:29:02 on 19 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:JOETTE: It is abominable especially for where I am at- Berkeley, where one could presume that reading would be par for the work force. It is not, that is a terrible fact, as I often mention within spittin'distance [just emphasis] sit three religious belief types- not readers, except for some little religious ditty they "comfort" each other with reading together. Hope you don't anything against Conan or Thor or Richie Rich or Hulk or Spiderman? - 17:42:30 on 19 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:ANY3: It is windy and rainy here, and not a blonde has been seen, yet. Do they- blondes, bring out the sun or does the sun bring out the blondes? - 18:11:06 on 19 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:ANY4: Still concerned with reading, here is a fun place to read about things. - 20:34:08 on 19 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:ANY4a: Still again try this, - 20:40:06 on 19 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:ANY4b: that works there click on "new" that will be the objective. - 20:41:23 on 19 Feb 98 GMT

Joette (currently sporting the Jacques Villeneuve look):-->CARL..actually, it's Miss Clairol that brings out the majority of blondes. - 21:21:56 on 19 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:JOETTE: I don't count the dark root stuff that I oft note in my observations of this phenomena, of course. - 21:41:14 on 19 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene:HEY CARL!- I've been busy working in the computer room so I've just re-hooked up my computer. I have it on the floor again so if the typing is any worse than usual, it's becuase of that. I feel like that little kid who plays the piano on _Charlie Brown's Mythmas_. Anyhow, I was listening to the local YIC radio show host this afternoon and he had a lawyer who is employed by the UofM as the sexual harrasment rep. If you were a staff member here, you'd be infront of a judge for your "blonde" comment. Sheesh! Pretty soon all one will have to do is open their mouth and spew a politically incorrect comment and we'll be in jail and the murderers will be out having our jobs! See ya in the hoose-cow! - 23:17:09 on 19 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene..in defense of St. Stephen:JOETTE! JOETTE! JOETTE!--I think King's ideas are pretty good! In fact I lurve Stephen King! I just finished reading _Regulators_ and am starting on _Desperation_. Who could match his insanity! - 23:21:43 on 19 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- In fact the descriptive adjective for new age loonies, fern-sniffers,was one of his originals! Anyway, here about poor Andy getting suspended? Just because he's shown up to work once or twice in the last fifteen years! It must have been our Sharon who pushed that one. He likely didn't like her becuase she wasn't blonde. He's still eligible for his 48G's per year though. That goes a long way in Mexico, I would imagine. - 23:26:11 on 19 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->MARLENE...our senate is a travesty. Can imagine the gall of the guy not to show up for this one meeting this year? He won't get paid while the house is sitting though. The senate should be abolished. They do nothing but hold things up; they are all dinosaurs that have done political favours in their day, and so our money is wasted on their hefty salaries and perqs. Pisses me off! - 23:38:51 on 19 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->MARLENE..it's too bad you haven't been helping me rub our southern neighbours noses in the fact that CANADA HAS MORE MEDALS THAN THE AMARIKANS DO! NAHNAHNAHNAHNAHNAH! (however, I am a good sport, and Michelle Kwan and Tara Lapinsky will win medals, and much deservedly) BUT WE WILL STILL HAVE MORE MEDALS. NAHNAHNAHNAHNAH - 23:41:27 on 19 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:MARLENE: Here in Calif a legislator has prepared a bill that essentially outlaws 'mini-shirts' as these lead to evil. I found an interesting site you might like it is one at the site I URL'd above. It concerns a Canadian coonstitution and freedom. I like to URL it too but the first time I made the attempt it did not work. It brought you Canadians to mind, - 23:42:02 on 19 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->CARL..that legislator should visit our town on Saturday. There is an "anniversary swim" scheduled to celebrate the one year mark of women being allowed to go topless in this province. A local idiot, Erika Kubassek, who has her pack of "Moral Support Movement" minions will be surrounding the pool to protest the lack of family and xtian values. She believes that toplessness leads automatically to fornication, forced or otherwise. It should be fun. - 23:59:38 on 19 Feb 98 GMT

Bill...:MARLENE, JOETTE, Actually it wasn't that long ago (less than a year) that I made that post. Since I am too lazy to erase old post from my computer, here is the response that Just Wondering made to my post. Note the date. ***Just Wondering:Bill: I was about to sign off due to the lateness of the hour, but I couldn't resist responding to your comment about the "christian" (is the lower case c deliberate?) attitude about changing the world to fit their belief system. This is not just a "feel good" thing, in fact, I think it is one of the most dangerous things about christianity in general. I believe this attitude stems directly from the New Testament verse "No one comes to the father but through me". Some christians think this literally means everyone else is going to hell without their help. I find this at the very least condescending, and, at the very worst, leads to violent racism/sexism and any other bad "ism" you can think of. By the way, are you the person who said atheists accept determinism? If so, what do you mean? I have to go now but will return tomorrow. - 2:34:34 on 1 May 97 GMT*** I still have NC and Richard's (the atheist) old posts. What is NC up to lately? Does she ever lurk here? She is one smart cookie, as is Richard. I have talked to Richard, in the past, but not in a few months. Out of sight, out of mind I suppose. One more day and I am off for a week. It's Mardi Gras party time next week here. Maybe I can post a little more frequently. Bye! - 0:58:18 on 20 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->BILL..it's like going down memory lane. "Just Wondering" turned about to be a girl named Chris, whose opinions I respected very much. I wish she would come back. - 1:49:45 on 20 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene:BILL and JOETTE- Right, now I remember! I doubt that Just Wondering/Chris would have inserted that old post though. NC is doing great but no, she doesn't lurk here at all. She's too busy with a mail discussion. I haven't heard from Richard for a long time but then again I suppose I haven't dropped him a line either. I agree, they both had lots to contribute. The Mardi Gras is something I plan to attend someday. It looks as though it would be loads of fun. Do you have something similiar in Florida? - 5:42:10 on 20 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene:Since there's not much discussion on the religion thing lately, I figured how about a joke on it....Two Arabs boarded a shuttle out of Washington for New York. >One sat in the window seat, the other in the middle seat. Just before >take-off a little Jewish guy got on and took the aisle seat next to the >Arabs. He kicked off his shoes, wiggled his toes and was settling in when >the Arab in the window seat said, "I think I'll go up and get a Coke." >"No problem," said the Jew. "I'll get it for you." >While he was gone the Arab picked up the Jew's shoe and spit in it. >When the Jew returned with the Coke, other Arab said, "That looks good. >Think I'll have one too." >Again, the Jew obligingly went to fetch it, and while he was gone the Arab >picked up the other shoe and spit in it. The Jew returned with the Coke, >and they all sat back and enjoyed the short flight. As the plane was >landing the Jew slipped his feet into his shoes and knew immediately what >had happened. "How long must this go on?" he asked. "This enmity between >our peoples.....this hatred ... this spitting in shoes and peeing in >Cokes?" > - 5:50:03 on 20 Feb 98 GMT

Sorry to go against the flow and not discuss your last comment but it seems difficult to do so. Your page is most interesting, especially the introduction. I have to ask which takes the most strength, to accept your weaknesses or to continue in your own strength? You also mention that Religious people seem to have an inflated , superior view of themselves (or words to that effect). This is undoubtedly true of some "religious" people. I can only speak for myself (as a Christian) and the people whom I know. From my perspective I am certainly not perfect, I am not righteous before my God, nor do i pretend to be. I do sin and sin every day, I battle against this but to live the sinless life is hugely demanding and i have never met anyone (other than Jesus!) who has succeeded. The only difference between myself and people who do not share the same beleifs is that I have accepted God's offer of forgiveness through the death of his son, Jesus Christ. Because of that when i come before God (ie pray) God forgives me. The very fact that Christians as you say put their faith in God and look to Him for strength supports and confirms that we are no 'special' kind of people. As even Paul said: "I am less than the least of all God's people" (Eph 3:8) Finally I would be interested to hear why God bothers you so much taht you have had to establish an "atheism" page? - 10:16:35 on 20 Feb 98 GMT

olly:can anybody recommend a book on bringing up children without religion. My five year old son asked me the other day, he had been told that god made us.my reply was that it was a good question, and I would find out for him. I as an atheist i dont want to bring him up with religion, but also dont want to put my strong atheistic veiws on him also.i just want him to be a happy child. my reason for enquiry is i dont want to make mistake in my answer.{ yours long winded and new to the web.} - 12:20:42 on 20 Feb 98 GMT

Hi olly......:Give the little shit a cuff over the ear. - 12:28:34 on 20 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->OLLY..I don't know of a book about bringing up a child without religion. I can only tell you my own experience with my daughter...when she was about your son's age, she started questioning why we didn't go to church and such, as her classmates all did, and I suggested that if she was interested, that she could go with a friend. She started going regularly to a fundamentalist church, and it lasted for a few years, until one day she came and declared that it "was too religious". She began looking at other religions, especially catholicism and judaism, but has so far found most religions too controlling. She is almost 18 now, and she is still exploring, but she is not ashamed of the fact that her parents are atheists. She has met a lot of resistance in classes where the subject is along religious lines, but she is always prepared to ask good questions and is able to hold her own in a debate. I have always let her make her own decisions in this matter, and I think it has made her a stronger person. - 12:32:24 on 20 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->NO NAME...I am always puzzled when an xtian claims that he/she must battle against sin everyday. I am an atheist, but I don't know about sinning. What exactly are these transgressions that you all beat yourselves over the head about? - 12:35:09 on 20 Feb 98 GMT

Steven:JOETTE<<>>The US has never been really strong in the winter games. I wonder who will win more medals in the summer competition. - 13:21:49 on 20 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->STEVEN..actually, your women skaters just one gold and silver, so you are only one behind us now. It is a dark day in Canada, with our dream team being beat last night. Now, given that you have 10 times a many people in your country than we do in ours, it should be that your country win more medals in the summer games, don't go think? - 13:37:00 on 20 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene:OLLY- I suggest you tell him the truth, you and his mom made him. I told my kids that god is like the tooth fairy and santa, once one grows up enough to realize they aren't real, one doesn't even question the myth as truth. - 14:05:40 on 20 Feb 98 GMT

Steven:STEVEN<<>>mabey this is from ignorance but here we go. Do you think tha mabey Canadians do better in the winter games because they live so far up north. In other words, because they see winter far more than the majority of Americans. Germany always does well in the Summer Olymipics and they are smaller than Canada. - 14:08:05 on 20 Feb 98 GMT

oooops that is adressed to JOETTE - 14:08:37 on 20 Feb 98 GMT

olly:thanx marlene,nice simple answer{but are they not always the best} thats what i will tell him - 14:56:46 on 20 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->STEVEN...your country has a larger population living in northern climes than ours does, so that would not be the case. Contrary to what many people think, our weather here is no different than what most of New York and the nothern Eastern Seaboard. The province in which I live comprises has 40% of the entire country's population, and parts of it are more southern than a good part of Michigan. It is a myth that we are the Great White North, unless you want to go thousands of miles north where not very many people live anyway. Germany is a smaller country, as is every other country in the world except Russia, but it is more densely populated, as are most other countries. Here ends the geopgraphy lesson of the day. - 15:05:34 on 20 Feb 98 GMT

Steven:JOETTE<<>>geopgraphy? - 15:17:03 on 20 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:JOETTE: I met a German female who said Germany was roughly half the size of the state of California. I was surprised at this mental image. - 15:26:15 on 20 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:NONAME: Just as JOETTE's puzzle, what is the sin? It surely cannot be a jc thing, in three o'the gospels only one uses the word "belief" 4 times and none refer that idea back to the jc figure, only paul[I think] goes nutz calling for the subservience of all, and was not paul the last gospel written? Therein it, many innovations appear, does this not cause some querulous ideas within an honest thinking individual? - 15:34:34 on 20 Feb 98 GMT

Steven:CARL<<>>can you post that theo chat url again. - 15:49:56 on 20 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:STEVEN: the site is here. - 15:53:48 on 20 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->STEVEN..it was a geopgraphy lesson, not a spelling lesson. :) - 16:20:25 on 20 Feb 98 GMT

Steven:JOETTE<<>>I am the last person on the planet to correct anyone's grammer. I was just haveing fun. :>() - 16:27:46 on 20 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->STEVEN..I know that you were just funning with moi, but BTW that should be "grammar" LOL! - 16:32:58 on 20 Feb 98 GMT

PapaSam:JOETTE. You may have a right to brag that your Canadians have won more medals than ours. but when you say that your politicians are worse than ours you're going too far. - 18:23:53 on 20 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->SAM..good joke! - 19:21:01 on 20 Feb 98 GMT

Adam SSSSMOKIN'---->:I hereby offer the Canadian Snowboarders' National Anthem: "Oh, Cannabis, our own non-native plant, True, awesome love in all thy dudes command. With glowing eyes we see thee rise, Your true smoke strong, not free! From far and wide, Oh Cannabis, We stand on board for thee. Dude, keep our plant gorgeous and free! Oh Cannabis, we stand on board for thee! Oh Cannabis, we stand on board for thee!" CREDIT: Elizabeth Cordeau, Law Society of BC, Vancouver, BC - 21:30:48 on 20 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:STEVEN: The theochat folks miss us now, some sex types are there raisng hell and wanting more. The religious types have been invaded they wave the crosses and slingin'their beads and whatever to keep themselves pure for their god thing. It is funny funny funny. - 21:46:09 on 20 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:OPEN: It is so humerous that the religious can't handle sex, mostly it looked like they are upset with females. The points I kicked out at them, concerned the very things they exhibited, threats and condemnation, they are an ignorant bunch, and most prefer it that way. That must be brought to an end, someday. - 22:04:02 on 20 Feb 98 GMT

jaywilson--with advice from a fellow dadaist for:OLLY: To quote Frank Zappa from his autobiography, "...the basic idea I try to keep in mind is that _a child is a person_. Just because they happen to be a little shorter than you does not mean they are dumber than you. ...we have the responsibility of providing them with all the basic data they're _never_ going to get in school. ... in the final analysis, we realize that they are 'organisms unto themselves.' Whatever they're going to do in life, _they're going to do_" (_The Real Frank Zappa Book_, Pg. 251-52) regardless of home instruction." - 22:35:06 on 20 Feb 98 GMT

Joette (nada):-->CARL..their reaction to the spamming was hilarious. I could just see them with their pointy little noses out of joint. You are incredibly patient there. - 23:18:37 on 20 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:JOETTE: Sometimes I like toplay last word. - 23:29:47 on 20 Feb 98 GMT

carl:JOETTE: It was an incredilble thing to see their posts when the nudey thing arrived. They were absolutely terrible about the matter and I didn't plan on spending any terminal time there 'til I read what they wanted to do. F--in' nazis, man next thing you kno'those pea braisn will be burnin'folks, again. they are a dumb lot. - 23:32:54 on 20 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE and CARL- How did you get them to even respond? When I tried, suggested good books, good movies, even good ideas which are much in need there, they acted like I was god, like I didn't exsist. - 0:24:41 on 21 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene:IN ADDITION- I bet I know what it was! I used my real name and used some original thoughts! I probably seemed like an alien. - 0:26:31 on 21 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene:ADAM- The tune never sounded better!! Impressive! JAYWILSON- Zappa spoke a real truth. People will be who they want to be and that includes little people. I have two kids that have their own minds for sure. Most of their ideas aren't even close to mine (no matter how much I nagged and tried to beat it into them, lol). - 0:30:12 on 21 Feb 98 GMT

Bill...:JOETTE, I liked Chris a lot; she was neat. MARLENE, We have Mardi Gras here but it is not very large. The more one heads west from here, the bigger the celebration gets. New Orleans has the biggest celebration; however, I am only going as far west as Mobile, Alabama. A vendor, I deal with at work, has invited me to attend their party on the street outside his wife's law offices. He promises plenty of food and drink while we watch the parade. I'm looking forward to it. I got to go watch the girls skate to Gold and Silver, bye! - 1:06:41 on 21 Feb 98 GMT

Bill..:OLLY, I'm somewhere between Joette and Marlene. I would tell my kid the truth, as I saw it, but would allow them to experiment all they wanted. Control is never a great approach in this area. - 1:10:01 on 21 Feb 98 GMT

RICHARD:Parents are to teach their children what is RIGHT and NOT allow them to experiment. Filthy homosexuals, SODOMITES will perish in time; and it is to be noted that God created Adam and Eve NOT Adam and Steve, God created Eve and Adam NOT Eve and Madam. But it is no surprise to me that those who deny God allow their children to become sodomites and even encourage them to do so, for they DO NOT LOVE THEIR CHILDREN, for they drive them to hell and the second death. They cast their children into the fire for lack of LOVE and righteousness. They give them the inheritance of AIDS also, what a gift to give your child !!! AIDS. - 6:16:23 on 21 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene:BILL- I agree with you. I didn't interfere in my kids' choices. In fact one even went to a private YIC school but for a very short time. His friends were going (because their parent's made them) so he wanted to go. Didn't last too long though, he was a little to opinionated when it came to the religion class LOL. - 6:17:15 on 21 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene....be you ever so humble-->:DICKY BOID- Outta fires down under? Actually I'm rather turned on by homosexuality. I've watched many XXXtasy flicks and none of the homosexuals looked filthy to me. Looks like they even washed their feet, rather jesus like don't you think? In fact, I've heard tell that the mythical jesus sported quite a few homosexual traits himself. Men's only club, other than Mary (who was a hooker BTW). Sheesh, sounds rather modern day, non? Are you from the Outback???? It's common knowledge that AIDS is just as common among so-called straight people as it is among homosexuals and even more common among IV drug users, which most BTW are straight. Actually I've heard that there is a new strain of the HIV virus now thought to to transmitted from dorking kangaroos. Better go get tested Dicky. - 6:29:26 on 21 Feb 98 GMT

PapaSam:MARLENE. You mean they switched from sheep to kangaroos? They must like the bumps and grinds. RICHARD. You are the result of fornication. Your mother and father had sex. I'm sure they used the missionary position in view of your religious feelings. Unfortunately, the best part of you (the brain) ran down your father's leg. Did you ever stop to think that your mother, being female, is according to YOUR bible, a creature of sin? Your mother, being a woman, is unclean and a thing of evil, according to your saints. Check out what St. John Chrystostom, St. Jerome and St. Augustine have to say about women, including of course, your mother. If any one made those remarks about your mother you'd punch him in the nose -at least I would hope you would - but you chose to ignore it in your 'holy' writings. Don't take my word for it. Do a little honest research - 7:17:34 on 21 Feb 98 GMT

RICHARDe:PapaSam; From your words you sem to be a person of rather limited intelligence; in regards to he Scriptures. - 8:09:15 on 21 Feb 98 GMT

RICHARD:Marlene; AS we say in AUstralia, YOU really are WANKER - 8:10:44 on 21 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->RICHARD..your own children are a product of a broken home, which is contrary to what yourbible preaches. Does this mean, and it must given what you have written, that they are also homosexuals? Will you also throw them to your lake of fire. (btw, the Adam and Steve is older than the hills) - 9:16:06 on 21 Feb 98 GMT

olly:jaywilson, its great being a dadaist - 12:46:26 on 21 Feb 98 GMT

Bill...:RICHARD, Have you had much experience with parenthood? If so, how old are your kids? - 14:00:09 on 21 Feb 98 GMT

Bill..:MARLENE, JOETTE, Tara and Michelle put on a great figure skating performance last night. Did you see our little Tinker Bell win the Gold? She just screamed when she realized that she was in first place. She is so cute and her spirit reminds me of my youngest son who always enjoyed life to the fullest. Sorry about Canada and the hockey as I know this sport is very big up there. At least you're still ahead of us in the metals count. We never seem to do that well in the Winter Olympics and are metals now I think are equal to our highest count ever. - 14:10:44 on 21 Feb 98 GMT

bill..:boy, i sure am making a lot of writing errors this morning! - 14:13:16 on 21 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->BILL..our hockey team losing is equal in this country to the death of Lady Di. It will be the only thing on the news for the next two days. Our country has also won more medals this time than they ever have in the Winters. - 14:32:48 on 21 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene:BILL and JOETTE- I'm not much into sports as you can tell but Canada is doing very well considering it only has a fraction of the US population to produce these athletes. My brother and step-father both played against Sweden for three years and each time they lost. I think those northern European countries are very skilled in ice sports. I understand that Canada is whopping them in both men's and women's figure skating though. - 15:40:18 on 21 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->MARLENE..actually, we didn't have any women at the Olympics, and the U.S. won the gold and silver in that event (they have always dominated that sport). Canada won a silver in the men's (Elvis Stojko who was so injured he shouldn't have been skating in the first place), but we have done very well in the speed skating. Maybe that is what you meant. We have finished all of the events that we were in contention for, so 15 medals is it for our little country. Your step-father and brother must be awesome hockey players if they played at an international level. Would you mind e-mailing their names, as my partner would probably know who they are...(he is currently crying and looking for mourning clothes to wear LOL!) - 16:20:27 on 21 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->Back to our converasation about Iraq and their biological weapons..has anyone been following the story about those white supremists that were found to have the anthrax in the trunk of their car? I read that the one had boasted last year that he had enough literally wipe out the majority of the population of New York City, and that somehow the Iraqis would get blamed for it. Scary stuff when oridinary citizens have this stuff in their possession. Anybody have more details? - 16:32:56 on 21 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- Yup! That's what I meant, speed skating,lol. Yup! I'll mail you the details of my "hockey star" family on my next break. As for the anthrax idiots, their lastest story was that they were trying to develop a vaccine. - 17:25:58 on 21 Feb 98 GMT

PapaSam:RICHARD.My intelligence on the scriptures may be limited, but what I said was true. You made no attempt to correct my statement because you could not refute my facts. Now tell me. You believe your god created the whole universe with its billions of galaxies and all the life on it. If your god wanted to he could make it disappear in the twinkliung of an eye. He could make the sun or moon vanish at will. He has the ability to control the minds of every living creature including me. If he wanted to he could make you an atheist and me a holy roller. Do you or do you not believe your god has these powers? Or do you think your god's powers are limited and if so to what extent. I look forward to your answers. Don't quibble or evade the issue. They are simple questions to answer. Let's see you do it. - 18:26:48 on 21 Feb 98 GMT

PapaSam:RICHARDD. I'm still waiting. Even god is getting impatient. He's pissed off because you seem to lack confidence in his abilities.. Better watch your ass. If you don't hurry up with your answers you'll be in deep shit with your big boss. - 21:28:17 on 21 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->SAM..Richard is from down under, so he usually doesn't post until late at night. - 21:54:44 on 21 Feb 98 GMT

GOD--omnipotent, omniscient, and very displeased with:RICHARD: What in hell's keeping you, monkey boy? Answer PapaSam's questions! By the way, I hope you're not using that Bible text; those hack writers don't speak for ME. - 1:59:10 on 22 Feb 98 GMT

Satan:Salutations! I am Satan, sometimes known as Beelzebub, but I prefer to be known as 'pussy cat'. Please let the questions about the faith begin! - 4:51:32 on 22 Feb 98 GMT

Grant:GOD-- SATAN-- You fellows aren't going to fight it out here on this humble atheist board, are you, (gulp) sirs? - 6:09:19 on 22 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->GRANT..good to see you back here again. It's been dead without you. Now if god and satan fight it out here, it will be just like last week's episode of South Park. Hurray, armageddon has finally arrived. Let the trumpets sound! - 6:17:56 on 22 Feb 98 GMT

Grant:JOETTE--Well. thank you. --- If they start fighting, I'm not sure I have the guts to tell them that I think they're both on the same team. - 6:27:06 on 22 Feb 98 GMT

Rigsby:SATAN a.k.a. Lucifer (not the former poster): if you were satan you'd know beelzebub is his right hand man, not lucifer himself. read Paradise Lost. - 6:31:02 on 22 Feb 98 GMT

Rigsby:This is what irks me. People irresponsibly and in ignorance alluding to religious figures or religions in general. For example, I was watching Jenny Jones one afternoon because her guests were kids who listen to and/or worship Marilyn Manson. Questions and responses were relatively predictable, ignorance (from both guests and audience) at its finest. What pissed me off, however, was when Jenny asked one of the Manson followers if she was atheist. She said yes. Jenny followed with the question, "You worship the devil, practice witchcraft?" (Quote may not be exact but you get the point). She said yes. No one corrected Jenny or her guest by pointing out that athiesm is the nonbelief in any supernatural being and that belief in the devil and practicing witchcraft disqualify the youngster from being an atheist. I'm sure many of you have had similar experiences with blatant misunderstandings of atheism, as well as the religions of the world. Just wanted to vent. Thanks. - 6:43:13 on 22 Feb 98 GMT

Grant:RIGBY-- I agree. It's irritating when someone can't see that Satan is part of their religion, rather than what you believe in if you dismiss their religion. I have been told that I follow Satan whether I admit it or not. This is extemely irritating. It's fortunate that all xtians do not think this way. - 7:00:01 on 22 Feb 98 GMT

Grant:Oops- typo. RIGSBY - 7:03:12 on 22 Feb 98 GMT

PETER:...and atheists are miserable, cynical, immoral, misguided soul--- capable of any imaginable evil ..." Questions like: "Well, what stops you from just killing people" ... (as if some sort of "celestial policeman" has to prevent mankind from doing so....another one I'm getting a lot lately " So don't you believe in ANYTHING? You have no beliefs? ( We're apparently now nihilists )...Or: "You must be a COMMUNIST then, huh?"...and of course "Where are YOU going when you die--up, or down" ( I have a great response to this one, which will make them look REAL stupid everytime ) - 8:44:09 on 22 Feb 98 GMT

.:. - 12:47:25 on 22 Feb 98 GMT

THAN to Round eyed pigs.......: ‘S*‘‚¨‚¢‚µ‚¢‚¨‚Ý‚â‚° *u–*•¨‚É‚¤‚Ü‚¢‚à‚Ì‚È‚µ*v‚Æ‚Í–{“–*H ‘S*‘‚É‚Í*A–*•¨‚Ì‚¨‚¢‚µ*`‚¢*H‚x•¨‚ª‚*‚–‚3‚ñ‚ ‚邶‚á‚ ‚è‚Ü‚1‚ñ‚©*B ‚Æ‚¢‚¤‚±‚Æ‚Å*A‚¢‚*‚*‚¢‚*‚±‚Æ‚Ì‚ ‚é*A–*•¨‚ð’n•û•Ê‚É‚Ü‚Æ‚ß‚Ü‚µ‚**B *Ê*^‚ª‚*‚–‚3‚ñ*W‚Ü‚Á‚*‚ç*A*}SÓ‚É‚µ‚Ä‚¢‚«‚*‚¢‚Æ‚¨‚à‚Á‚Ä‚Ü‚·*B —F’B‚ª“c*É‚ÉÐA‚é‚Æ‚«‚Í*A‚¨*Ñ£‚Ì*Q*l‚É‚È‚é‚©‚à*`*B –kSC“1 “Œ–k SÖ“Œ ’Ý•” SÖ** ’Ý*‘ *l*‘ Ðã*B *@go back - 12:50:50 on 22 Feb 98 GMT

Bill the round eyed pig...:THAN….. EAT ME…..I go well with coffee and eggs in the morning, ha! Just teasing. What country are you from and what religion are you? - 14:39:41 on 22 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->BILL..you should be asking what hospital he/she was just released from. - 14:56:42 on 22 Feb 98 GMT

Bill...:JOETTE, There was a satire/cartoon the morning paper showing a picture of Mr. Clinton addressing the public saying: "He is, simply put, a MADMAN! His ability to inflict damage MUST BE NEUTRALIZED! Rest assured, I am doing all I can to rally public opinion against him!… …But enough about Kenneth Sarr…" Oh, Clinton and his problems… - 15:08:19 on 22 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->BILL...that's funny! We haven't heard too much about the sex scandal lately. The news about Iraq (and our hockey team) is taking up pretty much all of the news. - 16:09:18 on 22 Feb 98 GMT

Bill..:JOETTE, We have to be tolerant sometimes. Last week, at work, this Jehovah Witt-iness (fun-die guy!) was reading a Star Trek book and the person next to him commented to me that he was reading about his ancestral roots. I responded by saying that, "Be tolerant; It takes all kinds to make the 'universe' go round." I hated to see the Olympics end. I think Ice-skating, in all forms, made up my favorite events. Hockey use to be your, right? I don't really get that hung up emotionally on sports in general. It's just pure entertainment for me. - 16:20:40 on 22 Feb 98 GMT

Bill..:JOETTE: Clinton, other than his personal sexual addictions, has performed very well on the domestic front concerning our economy, race relations, children's issues, and creation of jobs. He has, however, been disappointing here lately on foreign affairs and each day he looses public support for his Iraqi position. Neither Iraq nor America has anything to gain by confrontation and I think they will come to some kind of agreement the first of the week. I am somewhat surprised by Clinton's dogmatic stance. Maybe he knows more than he is divulging to the public? - 16:38:31 on 22 Feb 98 GMT

Grant:PETER-- Come on- you can't do that! What is the great response? - 17:37:35 on 22 Feb 98 GMT

Grant:BILL__ I too have been wondering if there is more to the Iraq thing than we know. - 17:38:47 on 22 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->BILL..just 'cause I'm a Canuck doesn't make me a hockey fan. Actually, I live for baseball. And skating is a fave too, especially since my family is quite closely connected to the ISU. We have a vertiable wall of fame at home. (it's not what you know, it's who you know) - 17:39:34 on 22 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->BILL/GRANT..I've been hearing on the news all day that the Secretary-General of the UN (can't remember his name - it doesn't quite have the same affect as Boutrous-Boutrous Gali) is very close to a resolution with Saddam. I hope everything gets settled amicably, without either nation losing face. However, it concerns me that even Australia has deployed troops, because they haven't been involved in any sort of confrontation for 50 years. Maybe this is armegeddon? - 17:43:11 on 22 Feb 98 GMT

PETER:--GRANT--Well OK. Tell them to point where heaven is. They will point up. Then tell them to point to hell. They point down. Then casually mention to them that if someone living on the other side of the world would also point to up to heaven, however it would be in the opposite direction, and when he pointed to hell, it would be in the same direction as the person you are talking to pointed to heaven. Then of course accuse them of not really knowing where either of them are etc. etc. --and then watch them squirm and make all kinds of vague excuses. The "up" thing woud only work if the earth were flat, and we all lived on one side of it. - 19:24:32 on 22 Feb 98 GMT

PETER:--GRANT...and if the earth and heaven never moved ( as the biblical writers would have assumed ) - 19:27:57 on 22 Feb 98 GMT

Grant:PETER-- One thing I have noticed about human behavior is that things often don't have to make much sense for us to believe them. As Ayn Rand said, if we do not understand why we believe a thing it is a whimsical belief. - 19:39:41 on 22 Feb 98 GMT

--GRANT--That mind-set is the life-blood of the theist. Without it --their beliefs are doomed. - 23:19:54 on 22 Feb 98 GMT

PapaSam:All. Who was it that first said "All children are born atheists." ? It reminds me of the scene from 'South Pacific' where the character says "You've got to be taught to hate." It's so true. The mind of a child is like an empty field, and the racists and religious bigots sow it with the seeds of intolerance and hatred. It's an uphill battle but we must continue to do our best to bring reason and sanity to the world. Hopefully, we will succeed. - 23:51:15 on 22 Feb 98 GMT

RICHARD:Anyone who walks in SIN is the servant thereof, Jesus sets people FREE from the bondage to sin. One either serves GOD or Satan, you cannot serve two masters. You either serve GOD or Satan. Jesus makes us seperate from Satan and joint heirs with HIMSELF, he gives those who believe on him the power to become sons of God. Satan is the enemy of the righteous and a liar of the first order, he denied Jesus, he denies the resurrection, he denies the gospel etc. etc. and does this through ATHEISTS and others who though they call themselves 'christian' also, but these deny Christ by what they teach. These are Satan's dupes who appear as ministers of righteousness, but deny God and his Christ, these are the ones the ATHEISTS like, for they have itching ears and love to hear the denial of thr truth. - 2:03:52 on 23 Feb 98 GMT

RICHARD:FOR ANY ASTRONOMER; I am seeking to find out if there is any star called 'ABSYNTHE' could you please let me know if any star is calld by that name or if a star formerly called by that name exists.. my email is rchmrl@hotmail.com. THANKYOU. - 2:08:33 on 23 Feb 98 GMT

RICHARD:It's tue that the writers of scriptures do not APPEAL to many, for they have written the truth, but that is NOT wanted. It's easier for people to say there is NO God, for that way they keep their head buried in the sand. I suppose ATHEIST could be spelled OSTRICH ? - 2:13:05 on 23 Feb 98 GMT

RICHARD:My other question is, how many 'weapons of destruction, biological' does the United States have ? It seems to me that the US would get rid of all such wepons from others, whilst keeping their own ( SECRET OF COURSE ). I belive that there are many AMERICANS who DO NOT trust their own Govt. ? is that true. The US GOVT are hypocrites of course, one does NOT need a magnifying glass to se that !! - 2:16:51 on 23 Feb 98 GMT

RICHARD:It is to be noted also that ALL the major CULTS and religious NUTS have come from teh United States, there are some CHRISTIANS, praise God. As a nation they stinkl in God's NOSTRILS, but that is to be expected for nay nation with 'in God we trust' written on their currency and to deny God must be vomit in God's mouth, and so God will spew out AMERICA at the appointed time. and reward her 100 fold all the evil done to others. - 2:21:56 on 23 Feb 98 GMT

PETER:--RICHARD--Ok, sure, right--you're right....If you are speaking the truth, how can we argue? Just be nice to us, and please don't insult anyone here again. It's not the christian way. - 2:32:02 on 23 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->RICHARD..it would seem that are large number of religious nuts come from Australia too. Now, why do you hate those poor Americans so much. And would also explain all this sin stuff to me? You keep telling us we are sinners, but I myself lead a very sinfree and productive life. So, where is my sin? - 2:36:25 on 23 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->RICHARD..if you have any brains at all, you must know that atheism and satanism are two different things. Now, I asked you if your children were homosexuals, and you didn't answer me. Since they fit the criteria for that lifestyle because you couldn't make your marriage work, are they going to get AIDS too? Looking forward to your answer. - 2:39:51 on 23 Feb 98 GMT

Bill...:RICHARD, I disagree! - 2:57:47 on 23 Feb 98 GMT

PETER:--RICHARD---Don't you like Americans? - 3:02:01 on 23 Feb 98 GMT

Bill..:JOETTE, It looks like they might have an agreement from Iraq; the only rational course of action for sure. I can just see Iraq trying to hit Israel with some deadly gas and Israel responding by nuking them. Crazy, huh! - 3:03:40 on 23 Feb 98 GMT

Bill..:RICHARD, I am an American and I love you. Don't you love me? - 3:05:12 on 23 Feb 98 GMT

Bill..:RICHARD, What does the bible verse mean that says, "Judge not less you be so judged?" - 3:10:58 on 23 Feb 98 GMT

Bill...:What security doth it bring, to cause one to proselytize? - 3:19:59 on 23 Feb 98 GMT

Bill..:Is not personal security and self-esteem independent of others? - 3:29:55 on 23 Feb 98 GMT

Bill..:CULTS, NUTS, OSTRICHES…. Takes one to know one! - 3:41:52 on 23 Feb 98 GMT

Bill..:SIN…What is sin? That which makes one's mind feel bad, when all other body parts feel good! - 3:49:43 on 23 Feb 98 GMT

SATAN:Grant? What do you mean you don't follow me? I saw you at that Devil's Arts and Crafts fair in New Jersey just last week! And Richard, of course all the cults originate in America! That's where I live. I have a nice big mansion in Hollywood, with a swimming pool and sauna. My secretary, Sean, faxes out my new creations to weirdos who start up new religions! - 4:15:23 on 23 Feb 98 GMT

SATAN:Come now, Joette my child! Please don't deny me, your daddy! I know that you don't like going to my church very often because of the poor lighting (and the fact that it reeks of camel shit), but that's no reason to say my faith and yours are unrelated! Damn, I knew I should have listened to Edna and not included the 'unbelied in anything supernatural' clause in my atheist religion constitution! - 4:20:03 on 23 Feb 98 GMT

SATAN:Bill my son, I love you! Don't listen to the bad Ozzie Christian - he obviously wants to kill your family. - 4:21:30 on 23 Feb 98 GMT

Grant:SATAN-- Yes, but I didn't follow you there. I was hoping you wouldn't spot me; I wore that funny hat and glasses. - 4:24:13 on 23 Feb 98 GMT

PapaSam:RICHARD. You never answered my questions. Do you believe god created the universe with its billions of galaxies and all the life forms on it? Do you believe god can make it all vanish in an instant if he so desired? Do you believe god can control our minds so that he would make you an atheist and me a true believer? If so, where do you get the arrogance to pretend to speak for him? How dare you take it upon yourself to tell others what he thinks? What hubris to think that you, a piddling human, less than a piss ant in the great scheme of creation have the authority to speak for the great creator of the universe!! You have the unmitigated gall to criticize his works!! You hypocrite! If you truly believed in an all powerful god you would keep your mouth shut instead posing as his mouthpice. - 4:40:47 on 23 Feb 98 GMT

PETER:--PAPA SAM--Richard never answers questions. He is not here to engage in any thought provoking intellectual discussion--he comes here tp preach, chastize, insult, threaten. He did not arrive at his belief using logical induction, so one would never expect him to defend his beliefs logically. To Richard, logic has been abandoned, as is looked at with fear and contempt. It is his greatest foe. He knows logic has this annoying habit of lifting the fog, thus exposing all the glaring flaws in his beliefs, and how they fester his mind, with undigested slogans, repeated incantations and platitudes, undefined contradictions, unwarranted conclusions that have connection amongst themselves or reality. As long as he thinks they can somehow all be unified in a fog of uncertainty--he feels safe--until logic once again shows his ugly head. His purpose here is to sell the fog. It works for him--he feels it is his most crucial method for survival so why not promote it to others? He even gives his fog a name: Truth He doeswant to deal with those whose only purpose is to lift the fog. The fog is his life-blood. He feels he cannot survive without it. He is terrified of losing it. And only if he feels he can avoid logical inquiry--at all costs--does he feel unthreatened. - 5:08:24 on 23 Feb 98 GMT

PETER:...that is:...." NO connection amongst themselves and reality..." - 5:13:10 on 23 Feb 98 GMT

RICHARD:ALL unrighteousnes is sin; and it it Jsus alone who can free you from bondage to sin. When you are set free by Jesus you shall be free indeed !! It is to be noted that the love of God does NOT abide upon the sons of disobedience. You can serve God or Satan, but you cannot serve both ! Satan is going to the pit and all who serve him will go to the lake that burns with fire. Thre is NOT one person who has not sinned, except the Saviour Jesus, and all who trust in him are saved. His righteousness is imputed to those who believe, and God will justify the sinner SOLEY on the basis of Jesus' righteousness. - 7:25:48 on 23 Feb 98 GMT

RICHARD:PapaSam; God created ALL things, but he will NOT control your freewill, we are not created robots, but with reason and the freewill to choose the good over the evil. Jesus is the one who created all things for Jesus is God manifest in the flesh. God knowing opur weakness became flesh that he might partake of the same, and in that he partook of flesh he is able to succor those who come to him. We have not a Saviour who cannot be touched by our inrirmaties, for he too partook of the same temptations but without sin. We can have confidence in that coming unto him we have ONE who understands and is able to save to the uttermost those who COME. It is true though that God COMMANDS all men everywhere to repent and believe on Jesus, the resurrected one, by whom he will judge the world. It is also true that if God should turn away his face from us then all would be destroyed for God holds all things together. He has ordained that there should be 6000 years of world history ie: rule by man, followed by 1000 years of rest, ie( the 7 th chiliad,) or day. This will be followed by the 8th ETERNAL DAY, prefigured by the fact that Jesus rose on the 8th day. ie: eternal life is in him alone. Jesus rose 1 day after the SABBATH, telling us that the time is coming when after a SABBATH rest, the earth will be made new and that will be forever. Time as we understand it will BE NO MORE, for it shall pass away, and it will be even as before creation the time of NO counting, which another way of saying ETERNAL. As a Christian I partake of that eternal life now by faith, and faith which is the SUBSTANCE of things hoped for the EVIDENCE of things NOT seen is what I now walk by. To the unbeliever SEEING is believing, to the Christian BELIEVING is SEEING, therein is the difference between faith and unbelief. - 7:39:10 on 23 Feb 98 GMT

RICHARD.:Also I await any astronomer who might know of a star called ABSYNTHE, thankyou. - 7:41:46 on 23 Feb 98 GMT

RICHARD:Bill; You do err badly, for Jesus taught his disciples to JUDGE with right judgement, you should not quote 1 verse out of context, you should read the surrounding text as well, the whole discourse of Jesus about judging should be read. Herein do even some Christians err, for they learn different verses even as a PARROT learns, but they have not read the whole, and therefore many fall into gross error. - 7:44:29 on 23 Feb 98 GMT

RICHARD:Peter; It is LOGICAL to believe in a creator, much more so than to believe in anything else, for from a logical standpoint the creation speaks louder than words that a creator exists !!! Even the heavens speak, if you take time to hear. Unbelief is ill-ogical, for it has no sound foundation at all; those who do NOT believe suffer a grave illness, for they elan on theiir OWn understanding which will ever lead to the wrong conclusion concerning God. - 7:48:15 on 23 Feb 98 GMT

jaywilson--have pun, will travel--:RICHARD: Why, does ABSYNTHE make the heart grow fonder? - 11:00:07 on 23 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->RICHARD...you forgot me! I asked you a question that should be easy for you to answer. Are your children homosexuals? - 11:37:15 on 23 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->RICHARD...after being so obstinate, you expect us to do your research for you? Don't you have a library, university or observatory down under where you could get that information? Isn't Absynthe some sort of aphrodisiac? - 11:39:24 on 23 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->SATAN..alas, as much as I enjoy your dark side, I must deny that I am not of your loins. - 11:41:04 on 23 Feb 98 GMT

Grant:OPEN-- Never thought I would be quoting Richard...>>> RICHARD:Adam; You should be made aware that a heavenly body ( A STAR ) called 'WORMWOOD' ( GREEK = Absynthe ) is going to crash into the earth at some time in the future. This event is mentioned in the Apocalypse 8:10,11 I have NOT been able to find a star by that name, but that doeos NOT mean that it is NOT on some ancient chart. If you can help me I would be pleased. - 8:42:40 on 5 Nov 97 GMT<<< - 13:01:02 on 23 Feb 98 GMT

Steven:CARL<<>>I think RICHARD would scare the pants off most of the wuss's on the theo chat. - 14:32:35 on 23 Feb 98 GMT

RICHARD: Would an apocalypse by any other name smell as sweet? If only Jesus can set us free from the bondage of sin, does that mean we are not free now? If not, then how can you claim god has given us free will? - 14:58:17 on 23 Feb 98 GMT

Rob:Also, why has Bill erred by asking you the meaning of a biblical verse? I believe I rightly judge you as failing to help someone understand the Bible by responding to their questions with hostility. - 15:03:51 on 23 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene:STEVEN- I agree, the guy, if he lived next door would scare the shit out of me. He's NUTS, I say! JOETTE- Remember that all women are sinners and even if he has been married to one, they desreve to die a painful death of cancer or AIDS. I suppose all women have to be filthy lesbians too, lol. LORD SATAN- How's mother T? GRANT- You know that stupid fictional star must be the focus of all the culty, fundie Ozzie's. One used to post here under the name of Wormwood (a fitting name I must say). - 15:05:17 on 23 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene..:ROB- Hey, where HAVE you been? I know, that mothership has abducted you and picked your atheist mind. Was that ship from Absynthe? Are they going to take out Dicky since he's a shinning example of xtian savagery? - 15:10:01 on 23 Feb 98 GMT

Rob:MARLS: "I've been to London to see the Queen!" No, I was trying to give this up as it saps up my time, but I felt like posting again as the flightless Boid from Down Under really got my goat (Yes I know, Dicky -Satan usually gets most of my goats). As for the mothership, they wouldn't take Richard as they were offended that they didn't get a mention in his holy book. How are you? - 15:19:57 on 23 Feb 98 GMT

Steven:ROB<<>>long time no see, whats up? - 15:23:33 on 23 Feb 98 GMT

Bill..:ROB, Welcome back! Long time no hear. RICHARD, Where is your love for me? Do you love yourself? - 15:24:41 on 23 Feb 98 GMT

Rob:Steven: Oh, not a lot...read anything interesting lately? - 15:25:40 on 23 Feb 98 GMT

Rob:BILL: Long time no speak. Enough of this monkey business! - 15:29:58 on 23 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:STEVEN: That theochat site is loaded with folks filled with the innocuousness of ignorant devotion. - 15:35:10 on 23 Feb 98 GMT

Bill..:SATAN, Despite your love in the world, you are out numbered by the likes of the one from "down under." - 15:36:14 on 23 Feb 98 GMT

Bill..:ROB, All this love has just reminded me that I have got to go fix my truck muffler, for it and I are one! - 15:38:56 on 23 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:STEVEN: At that other site, where we last saw the quack, the quack what was it that quack wanted to know? I thought it was something to do with morals and ethics or something like that. Do you recollect what the quack sought to discuss? If it was either, then was or is the quack qualified to discuss such with any range and depth or would the quack spew forth the immorality of religion as the view point? - 15:48:21 on 23 Feb 98 GMT

Steven:CARL<<>>I think the QUACK asked me where my morals stemmed from. I don't think QUACK is qualified to read English, much less have an opionion. - 16:40:59 on 23 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:STEVEN: quite true of the quack who as a religious representative, the quack will have and hold to certain blind predispositions. That religious view or basis is simply immoral as it concerns human morality. - 16:51:22 on 23 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->A QUESTION FOR ALL (which will likely get your goat - unless Satan has taken them all by now) - a few times we have dicussed lawlessnes and mental illness. Some feel (myself included) that some mental ill people should be excluded from such things as capital punishment. In this (weather) vane, I look at Quake and Richard and see two raving lunatics, not just your regular run of the mill fundies. Therefore, I wonder is they should be treated with kid gloves as opposed to the hositility we normally reserve for "rational" theists (that may be an oxymoron). Opinions anyone? - 17:39:23 on 23 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->ROB..you have been missed. It is wonderful to see you back here among the sinners and satanists. - 17:41:35 on 23 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->speaking of missing compatriots, has anyone heard from RON lately? - 17:44:50 on 23 Feb 98 GMT

PETER:--CARL--Next time you talk to Dr. William Burger on the "other side", will you take it easy on him? LOL. C'est moi. - 18:05:09 on 23 Feb 98 GMT

PETER:--RICHARD--Oh, Richard, you walking definition of confirming the identical attributes which are given to you. Again, a steady flow of undigested slogans and platitudes, psychological intimidation, and unwarranted conclusions set adrift in a sea of logical fallacies: false alternatives, question begging, pre-supposed consequences and ad hominems. If you want to make a case for your beliefs--this is probably the least effective way I could think of. You will be seen as a raving, raging, out of control maniac, who has no regard for reality, his own mind, and the minds of others. There is no intelligibility, coherence or focus to any of the posts you make. You make references to things, entities and concepts that have no connections to themselves--or to reality. The substance to your posts are merely the blabberings of one who is committed to spouting gibberish. You may as well say nothing--the effect would be the same. - 18:21:41 on 23 Feb 98 GMT

PapaSam:All. Absinthe is a liquor flavored with wormwood. It is a dangerous drink which can damage the brain as can be seen by its effect on Richard. It causes delusions and occasionally violent behavior. Its victims rant and rave and on occasions have declared themselves to be spokespersons for their "god". It brings about a pre-occupation with "sin" and often results in impotency. When carried to extremes the victims are not content with mere impotency but have themselves castrated or, when unable to find a doctor to do the job, perform it on themselves. RICHARD. Are you a mental or a physical castrate? - 18:32:02 on 23 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene:PAPASAM- Is that for real? JOETTE- Nutcase or not, if the guy's an idiot he deserves to be told that. I think they are responsible and lock em up but still no death penalty. - 18:48:07 on 23 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:PETER: I din't realise that was c'est vous, that was too bad becuase we could have set up a good thologic discussion though us, it would have been much more intellectual that that inoffensive unstimulating talk of prayer and blesing that goes on there now. - 18:52:55 on 23 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:JOETTE: we others cannot do anything about what nature has dealt them, some, but not I, might be involved with them as they are in society and of course none of us are responsible for their internal or external deeds, IMO if they choose to be fools, they will let themselves come to their end. - 19:04:34 on 23 Feb 98 GMT

Rob:Joette: I appreciate your point, though from my outlook I am not passing any moral judgement on Richard, but merely reacting to what he says (as much as possible on an intellectual level). True, this may not be the best thing for him, but then again I don't profess to be here for altruistic reasons. On another note, if you do take up the "socially responsible" tack, there is the question of (i) Protecting others from their delusions (should they be deemed as such) and (ii) Distinguishing a "rational theist" from someone who is genuinely mentally ill. - 19:12:33 on 23 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->OKAY! I was just in one of my kinder moods (doesn't happen often; must be this fever I'm running). So it is agreed that all fuckwits are food for fodder then. - 19:25:14 on 23 Feb 98 GMT

PETER:--CARL--I had absolutely no idea who those two people were! However, I was on there Sat. nite and some fundie was asking me some questions I associated with someone in and around the ninth grade. I asked her how old she was, and how much education she had before I continued the conversation. At first she said it "wasn't important"--but after I insisted, she really got her back up, and said she was 40 and had a degree in psycology. After she didn't respond to me asking her if she knew who Nathaniel Branden is, I got suspicious--I asked her if she had ever read anything from Halley Kruger's 'Prow and perch syndrome' essay. She said she did read some of her work, heard of that paper but hadn't read it. She was longer to be seen when I told her my last name is Kruger, and Halley is the name of our cat. She makes this funny 'prow' sound when she runs up to people, before she perches on them waiting to be petted. A dirty trick I know, but one cannot always be who they want to be on the net--it may blow up in one's face! - 19:38:43 on 23 Feb 98 GMT

PETER: I had that same temptation before, to inquire of some pretentious thought source just to see who they are. As often as I can since this net is here and one should read some in order to communicate, hell, read at least what is here and available on this gadget. I treat this toy as a source for common reference while some of the older reading sources may not be here, they are usually available somewhere near most who want these books and whatever. I think I have been through enough stuff, I am not sure if I could have an original thought. Is this symbiosis or metamorphous or some kinda'..thetic,..orphous thing? - 19:57:13 on 23 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:PETER: The unmarked post was me and my haste - 20:11:14 on 23 Feb 98 GMT

who was that? - 20:11:37 on 23 Feb 98 GMT

Steven:PETER<<>>I cannot believe how the US hocky team acted after their disgrace. I love how they tried to play it off to the ice surface being greater. Give me a break, they thought they were at summer camp. - 20:14:47 on 23 Feb 98 GMT

Joette high schticking it...:-->STEVEN..are you referring to their sulking, or the trashing of the rooms in the Village? (we above the border are always amused by the sulking) - 21:15:26 on 23 Feb 98 GMT

Steven:JOETTE<<>>I am pissed because they acted like a bunch of ten year olds on summer vacation. They acted without dignity and showed no honor by trashing the rooms and by sulking. - 21:24:07 on 23 Feb 98 GMT

PETER:--STEVE--The Americans really scared me. Even though Canada beat them, there was about ten minutes when the Americans looked really dominant, and Roy kept them in the game. If the Americans had played 60 minutes like that every game--they would have won--easily. But the large ice surface actually does make a diifernce. They have an Olympic-sized rink in our city, and it's like skating on Lake Superior compared to a normal rink. Just when you think you got somebody nailed in the corner, they just turn around , and skate right out of it. All the angles are different too. In an NHL rink you can skate about five feet inside the blueline along the boards, and have a good shot at the net--however, on the wide ice--you're too far away. and at too sharp an angle, so either you have to skate toward the middle more or go in deeper, angling toward the face-off circle. It does call for different skills, and I am actually surprised how well the North Americans did. It IS almost a different game--and personaaly, I don't like it. - 21:34:52 on 23 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:STEVEN: Having read the DeLoria book, I could see how the Evad name on the other site was frustrating and pathetic to anyone with some sense of racial identity, as it seemed that you did, I finally had to turn my back too. That religion stuff I have seen it described as an egocentric predicament, the thought hit me that this meant about the same as the 'geocentric predicament' that xtians stuck to thru a good number of centuries. When I read that phrase that individuals posts came to mind. - 22:17:40 on 23 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:STEVEN: anyway, having read that and recalling that named individual, the view took form that religion is immoral due to its skillfully pre-packaged bundle o'goods that defy the human mind. Here, consider the mangod creation connection which means humans, xtians especially, are semi-gods. Can you see where this line of thinking can go? - 22:34:10 on 23 Feb 98 GMT

PapaSam:ALL. Arguing with a religionist is an exercise in futility. Using an intellectual approach is a waste of time because s/he doesn't respond to logic. In the mind of a 'true believer' faith is an impenetrable wall. The shadow of doubt must originate in his/her own mind. - 4:01:02 on 24 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene..tooth's achin', legs achin', back achin and ass achin, revenue Canada has come up with their "new" budget:PAPASAM- If you recall James who posted that he no longer can say that he has "faith" but hope, for years now had claimed that he had faith. After really thinking on it and talking with others who are either agnostic or atheist, James has realized the doubt. As you say, the doubt has to arise in the mind of the believer before there is any type of rationality to their discussion about god. James, I'll add, still has a very strong hope that there is a god and strong feelings against our claim that there is no god, but he has come to some type of doubt in the last short while. Brave step for James, others like Dicky still feel safe under their god cover. - 5:34:22 on 24 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene:CARL- That's just it, being a part of the (imagined) powerful god makes them feel powerful and without it/him/her the believers consider themselves weak and defenseless. It's the attitude that they take one when they "think" that they are empowered that cracks me up. It's like a little kid slaying the dragon with a pretend sword. - 5:39:13 on 24 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene..hailing the master:RAAAA-OOONNN! Where are you?????? - 5:40:32 on 24 Feb 98 GMT

RICHARD:PapaSam; I asked NOT for an IDIOT reply such as yours, I have asked if any Astronomer knows of a star called Absynthe, therefore I await a reply from a ASTRONOMER not an IDIOT. - 8:25:59 on 24 Feb 98 GMT

RICHARD:Joette; You called me 'lunatic' but it is you who are the one who is blinded in your mind to the truth of the glorious gospel of Christ. I am not one of those 'fundies' as you call them who condone sin nor do I refuse to live what I preach. Jesus is the way to God and if you do not believe then you perish, that's it. Your possition wopuld please the NAZIS, you are most likely a candicate for membership of the party ?? - 8:29:46 on 24 Feb 98 GMT

RICHARD:PETER; You had better be careful I hear the sound of the wagon coming to take you to the asylum, he, he, he... - 8:31:05 on 24 Feb 98 GMT

RICHARD:The preaching of the gospel is foolishness unto them who perish, you ALL fit that ! I'll be off now, I have those with a brain to talk to, those who are believers in the Lord Jesus Christ, those who have the wisdom of God. - 8:33:42 on 24 Feb 98 GMT

Rob:RICHARD: Why not pray for a revelation w.r.t "Absynthe" -wouldn't god tell you if he wanted you to know? Why have you avoided my question about your criticising Bill for asking for an explanation of scripture? Why is trying to help those who perish foolish? Surely they are the ones that need help most. Was there ever a time you did not believe Jesus was the way to god? I am really curious. Oh, and can I ask a personal question? What was the last sin you commited? - 9:49:14 on 24 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->RICHARD..me a nazi? You are the one goose stepping around every question you are asked. Are your children homosexuals? - 12:16:32 on 24 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->ROB..one sin that Richard had committed is pride. Afterall, he feels he is qualified to have conversation with people with "brains". Heil Hitler! - 12:18:58 on 24 Feb 98 GMT

PETER:--PAPA SAM--Do you EVER read any of my posts? - 12:23:39 on 24 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene:PETER- WAGON??? Maybe that's the mode of transportation over there in the outback....Strange little man he is!! - 14:55:23 on 24 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene...Hial Comradette:JOETTE- Aren't you sorry you had your little mellow mood over the Boid yesterday, lol. But I do understand where you were coming from. Playing with him is rather like running a stick over the bars on the outside of a ferret's cage. Good thing he lives in the outback. - 15:00:21 on 24 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene:ROB- Jesus has allowed the Boid to not only have a personal relationship with his imagination but one with the local kangaroo. He's excused the Boid from sin due to his mentality and location. - 15:04:52 on 24 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:OPEN: Well the RICHARD sure has had his say, anybody cowering or shuddering? He as other such religious believers have a fetish like thing in the jc term to toss or wave at things or folks they don't care for. But I wonder, does one as the RICHARD actually, really think that he refers to the bearer of that name or does he just mean the symbolism of that sound? - 15:32:36 on 24 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:STEVEN: A story in the news last nite out of Stanford Univ.a scientist keen to gene stuff said that, except for six of several hundred thousand gnomes there was nothing distinctive to one's racial thing. That scientist went on to say that, more such gene data was available for tall short things in people than just the six for ones racial makeup. The scientist said, contrarily to the RICHARD's view of a god-man connection, that simple environmental factors madeup the differences in humans. So I guess the racial thing is just a thing of and for one's metaphysical pleasure, to make the world go around? - 15:42:38 on 24 Feb 98 GMT

Steven:CARL:::are you saying that we are all the same? :) - 15:49:34 on 24 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:MARLENE: well, it looks like bill can't kill now. Bill being clinton. His position on matters of state sure lean with the winds. Seems that during the time of pre-election he was going full sail to the hot air of the religious type. Now with this saddam thing he follows a utiliatarian mode. I bring this up to go along with the uselessness of religious belief that you poke at, true it is. The religious types thrive and live on due to the preferences of a human for ignorance. - 15:51:42 on 24 Feb 98 GMT

Rob:MARLENE (tie me kangaroo down, sport?): I guess there's no smoke without fire! JO ROMELETTE: Will you be spending the shrove studying Hitler's Dairies? Or are you busy preparing for "Fash" Wednesday? CARL: Are these the Gnomes of Zurich you are alluding to? Could the be.... NO! The Super-Race!!! (Maybe Joette is "Miss Big"?) - 16:06:14 on 24 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:STEVEN: That appears to be the findings of that researcher. Wow, then there are some folks out and about, that really need some help if they're gonna be like us. - 16:08:11 on 24 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:ROB: That word is what it sounded like she used, when explaining her findings. But in any case, she did go on to say that there was more gene data that accounted for the differences between a tall and short man than between a black and white man. Maybe I'll look into doing a search of the Stanford site and see if I can find what she said about what she found. - 16:15:09 on 24 Feb 98 GMT

Joettler:-->ROB..that's MS. Big. - 16:19:16 on 24 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->CARL..forgive me for appearing somewhat blase about the report you have been mentioning. It has been noted for many years that environmental aspects of one's existence have much to do with man's evolution. For example, it has been noted that Oriental people are growing taller than previous generations, partly because of the introduction of western processed food. Another thing that I find most interesting is that it has been noted that the ear canal is changing, as humans do not require the acute hearing sense they once required for survival. The last two generations of children have had high incidences of ear problems, where they require small plastic tubes to allow for proper drainage, and that is because of the change in the ear. If you study medical reports (as I do), the most common thing amongst pediatricians is how to alleviate ear infections in children without the use of antibiotics. Medecine has to change with our evolution. - 16:24:38 on 24 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:JOETTE: That report was part of a Race in America series the local tv station has been running. If the racial thing is valid then it seems that it would become a dent in the assorted racial distinctions, as the naacp or any white supremecist group, as they might mean to want and have their way. But, JOETTE, darn the RICHARD has been saying his god/jc/h.ghost/devil/angels, et.al., have done made humans as best as it is gonna get. Is this funny? True it is the RICHARD is a lune. - 16:40:37 on 24 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->CARL..yes, that would be interesting if all of a sudden there were no distinction made between races at all. Or between languages and all that. I can almost hear John Lennon singing.... As for Richard the Insaneheart, if he thinks he is a prime example of as good as it gets, then we should be afraid, we should be VERY afraid. - 16:55:47 on 24 Feb 98 GMT

Curious:I'm lost, could someone please explain to me the exact reasons behind your beliefs! I'm very open to ideas. I am currently searching for the truth! Thanks :) - 18:33:54 on 24 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:Curio: '...behind your beliefs!' Is that a trick query? Do you refer to the substance? Is that substance historical? Is it futuristic? - 18:46:58 on 24 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->I am CURIOUS yellow...unless you have been lurking here for awhile, you don't know what our beliefs are. What are your beliefs? - 18:58:55 on 24 Feb 98 GMT

Rob:CARL: Sorry, I was being facetious. She will have been using the word "genome". Interesting point though. JOETTE: Apologies, Mein Fuhrer! CURIOUS: You might like to rephrase that one... - 19:10:11 on 24 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene:CURIOUS has been lurking here for years. More later, I just had a tooth out and the freezing always wipes me, sleep time. - 19:26:44 on 24 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:ROB: I was certain you that was funnin', but as i inscribed I think that is the word I heard, and perhaps if my spelling were better I would not cause myself such laughable concerns. - 19:37:13 on 24 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->MARLENE..oh no! You may have opened the door for Adam and his dental prowess... - 19:45:36 on 24 Feb 98 GMT

Steven:JOETTE<<>>speaking of ADAM, where the hell is he. I haven't seen anything from RON either. Are they on vacation? Spreken zie Deutch, Mein Fuhrer? - 19:55:55 on 24 Feb 98 GMT

RON...YIKES!!!...:Which "CURIOUS" is this? - 19:59:52 on 24 Feb 98 GMT

RON...-->Steven...:Hey!! I'm around. Great news. I was able to snow my wife and her lawyer with enough paperwork to get them to cancel their damn deposition. Saves me big bucks. - 20:02:37 on 24 Feb 98 GMT

PETER........>>>CURIOUS----:You will find the beliefs of the atheists here vary from one to another--sometimes rather drastically. This will also apply to all atheists. The only thing they have in common is NOT believing in a god. There is no such thing as "atheist beliefs" when referring to them as a group. You will find that one is atheist due to an application of a much broader set of beliefs. In my case, I do not believe in a god simply because there is no reason for me to do so. All the scientific and philosophical arguments I have heard that defend theism all arrive at a contradiction, and are supported with false logic. The "scientific" community is pretty well indifferent to this issue, simply because there never has been any evidence that would suggest such a thing exists. However, it would not be responsible for them to ignore such evidence if it were ever found. There are philosopical bodies who insist they have such proof, but to me it never rises any farther than it would be not impossible for such a being to exist. There is an old expression which goes" No one really doubted the existence of God, until the philosophers tried to prove there is one" Your best bet is to learn the art of critical thinking first, and then see how the evidence the theists presents holds up. For instance, an one find the Truth by having "faith"? What precisely is meant by having "faith". This is one question that demands an answer. If you want to be homnest with yourself, and are searching for the truth--of ANYTHING--this is the best way--and I believe the ONLY way. - 20:14:15 on 24 Feb 98 GMT

PapaSam:PETER. Yes. I have read your posts. Why do you ask? - 21:05:10 on 24 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->RON...that's good news! Does this mean you'll be keeping the page a little longer than you mentioned awhile ago? - 21:10:00 on 24 Feb 98 GMT

PETER:--PAPA SAM: I asked because sometimes people don't read everybody else's posts, and I wondered if you read mine because you often repeat what I have just said. - 22:44:30 on 24 Feb 98 GMT

RICHARD:Joette; You do well to be AFRAID, not of me but of God, for it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God, and you are falling very quickly indeed. You atheists just love to dish it out, but you do not like to receive. Joette, you will be giving account before God one day as to the rerason you reject Jesus, what will you say then ? what wisdom will you put forward, will you call upon the astrologers, the mediums, the soothsayers to help you. They will not be able to help themselves, let alone anyone else, for they too will PERISH. - 22:52:36 on 24 Feb 98 GMT

RICHARD:Carl; You and the others of your ILK would do well to heed the words of Jesus, at John 3:16 because you ALL need salvation in HIM. Also God commands that you ALL repent and believe on his Son, who is resurrected from the dead and by whom God shall judge the world. - 22:59:03 on 24 Feb 98 GMT

RICHARD:Carl; YOU do err once again, for it gets better for all who have believed on Jesus. Eternal life, a new body when Jesus comes again, no sickness, no tears, no pain, ah yes for those who have believed eternal life, which we have NOW !! For we who have believed have been buried and have been raised with our LORD JOSHUA. - 23:03:15 on 24 Feb 98 GMT

Rob:RICHARD: Before you run off without replying to my questions again, I shall repeat my questions from earlier: RICHARD: Why not pray for a revelation w.r.t "Absynthe" -wouldn't god tell you if he wanted you to know? Why have you avoided my question about your criticising Bill for asking for an explanation of scripture? Why is trying to help those who perish foolish? Surely they are the ones that need help most. Was there ever a time you did not believe Jesus was the way to god? I am really curious. Oh, and can I ask a personal question? What was the last sin you commited? - 9:49:14 on 24 Feb 98 GMT - 23:05:50 on 24 Feb 98 GMT

RICHARD:Marlene; You ought to know that we have electricity in Australia, but unlike the United Sates we DO NOT have weapons of mas destruction, like those biological weapons your Govt is developing !!! And why not, the US Govt let their own soldiers be exposed to radiation to see what would happen, and you accuse Saddam ? Why the United States is the greatest hypocritical lot of warmongers and whoremongers to ever walk the planet !! led by a President who lives by his groin ! - 23:08:20 on 24 Feb 98 GMT

Rob:RICHARD: Marlene is not American (I am off to bed soon, so maybe there will be some helpful answers from you by the morning?) - 23:10:43 on 24 Feb 98 GMT

RICHARD:Rob; I'm not that big a fool to allow others to score points off me; as to the scriptures, all scripture is GOD breathed. As to the star Absynthe I asked Astronomers for they know more than I regarding the names etc. of the heavenly bodies. - 23:12:14 on 24 Feb 98 GMT

Rob:RICHARD: Who's scoring points? You stil haven't told me why you reacted with hostility to someone asking you to explain a piece of scripture. As for Absynthe, wouldn't god know more than the astronomers as to the names etc. of the heavenly bodies? - 23:14:28 on 24 Feb 98 GMT

Rob:Oh well- guess I'll just have to hope the answers come to me in a dream. Goodnight Richard- may your day be a happy one. - 23:21:05 on 24 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->RICHARD...ARE YOUR CHILDREN HOMOSEXUALS?????? - 23:22:16 on 24 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->RICHARD...last time I checked, there were no astonomers here. Why don't you pray for a revelation as Rob suggested? - 23:24:17 on 24 Feb 98 GMT

Joezzzz:-->goodnight Rob! - 23:25:46 on 24 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->if the scriptures are god breathed, is the the original case of halitosis? - 23:28:02 on 24 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:RICHARD: Having never seen your god it is unknown, the jc myth is only for those who don't know the god thing. Nobody can say what might be godlike. If your words are any indication, then they still leave it open for any to ask what makes you so special, that you know that godthing? - 23:29:56 on 24 Feb 98 GMT

PapaSam:PETER. Anything I say on the web or anywhere else is the result of my own thoughts. Considering that we both voice the same opinions as do most of the posters here I fail to see why you imply that I am parroting your postings. I never quote from any books except from the bible to bring out a point in my criticisms. Don't flatter yourself, and if you have something to say, say it. You can be sure that someone has said it before. - 0:16:20 on 25 Feb 98 GMT

PapaSam:RICHARD. Isn't your boy jesus supposed to be a kind and loving guy? What's with all the threats of hell and damnation? That's no way to make friends. Actualy your boy being kind and loving is a fairytale even within your fairy tale. Takes after his father, the big time slaughterer - if you read your bible. Inciting wars, genocide and killing off whole populations - well, he did tell the troops to save the virgins. Women of course are sinful creatures fit only for breeding. That includes your mother. If you don't believe me check out jesus' buddy st.paul. How many women did your boy have in his twelve apostles? The only woman he hung out with was a whore. His apostles were all woman haters and probably got it off with each other. Some role models. Have you read st. jerome? "Woman is a gate to the devil." St. John Chrysostum. "Woman is the source of sin." So go home and tell your mother you want nothing to do with her as she is carrying Eve's sin gene and is a corrupting influence. - 0:37:56 on 25 Feb 98 GMT

PapaSam:RICHARD. The reason my government is "the greatest hypocritical bunch of warmongers and whoremongers and a president who lives by the groin" is easy to understand. It's because it's run by christians. As your "groin boy" Bill Clinton would say "Thank god----" I'm sure he'd love to join you in a prayer session. - 0:47:15 on 25 Feb 98 GMT

RON...--->Joette...:NO...this page will change hands soon. - 1:48:03 on 25 Feb 98 GMT

PETER:---PAPASAM----I wasn't going to make a big deal out of it, but since you seem to apparently love confrontation, laced with unnecessary insults mixed in with your weak arguments defending atheism that we hear over and over again. Also, you seem to think there is some intrisic weakness in learning the works of some scientists and philosophers, as if considering some of their assertions as vaid is somehow something to be ashamed of. Maybe if you would do some reading, you would be able to distinguish between a strong argument and a weak and tired one. In a nutshell Sam, you turned an honest question by me into a call for insult and belittlement. Instead of acknowledging the contents of a previous post to which you concur to some degree, you post another message as if nothing has been said. I see you do this repeatedly. It seems as if you are not willing to integrate thoughts with anyone here, including those who may even agree with you. Case and point: I made this post directly to you yesterday regarding the antics of Richard: PETER:--PAPA SAM--Richard never answers questions. He is not here to engage in any thought provoking intellectual discussion--he comes here tp preach, chastize, insult, threaten. He did not arrive at his belief using logical induction, so one would never expect him to defend his beliefs logically. To Richard, logic has been abandoned, as is looked at with fear and contempt. It is his greatest foe. He knows logic has this annoying habit of lifting the fog, thus exposing all the glaring flaws in his beliefs, and how they fester his mind, with undigested slogans, repeated incantations and platitudes, undefined contradictions, unwarranted conclusions that have connection amongst themselves or reality. As long as he thinks they can somehow all be unified in a fog of uncertainty--he feels safe--until logic once again shows his ugly head. His purpose here is to sell the fog. It works for him--he feels it is his most crucial method for survival so why not promote it to others? He even gives his fog a name: Truth He doeswant to deal with those whose only purpose is to lift the fog. The fog is his life-blood. He feels he cannot survive without it. He is terrified of losing it. And only if he feels he can avoid logical inquiry--at all costs--does he feel unthreatened. - 5:08:24 on 23 Feb 98 GMT......-And then, the very next day you said:---PapaSam:ALL. Arguing with a religionist is an exercise in futility. Using an intellectual approach is a waste of time because s/he doesn't respond to logic. In the mind of a 'true believer' faith is an impenetrable wall. The shadow of doubt must originate in his/her own mind. - 4:01:02 on 24 Fe---To me it appears you did not acknowledge my comments whatsoever on the previous day, and you pretty well said the same thing as I did. This is why I wondered if you read any of my posts. One could argue that you hadn't seen this post, but you did appear not too long after mine with another post. Sam, I have no problem with someone who wishes to debate, but it does make more sense if you show some respect to for those who you disagree AND agree with. - 2:02:11 on 25 Feb 98 GMT

Grant:PETER-- I was glad to see that last sentence, "...I have no problem with someone who wishes to debate, but it does make more sense if you show some respect to for those who you disagree AND agree with." In my opinion this board has become so hostile to xtians that it is impossible for any xtian to post here without being handed his head. I realize that I am not without fault in this area, but I think it would be better if this board was a place where ideas could be discussed calmly and rationally. Looking back at the time when Quietsun, Anselm, and Tony were here, I think we all looked bad, xtians and atheists alike. Being on the defensive seems to bring out the worst in everyone. Maybe I'm just in the wrong place. I think it's no surprise that only xtians who want to go for the throat post here more than once. - 5:31:40 on 25 Feb 98 GMT

PapaSam:PETER. Temper, temper! "I wasn't going to make a big deal of it, but since you love confrontation, laced with unnexessary insults mixed in with your" weak arguments defending atheism that we hear over and over again--" Do you know how much you sound like Richard?"Also you seem to think there is some intrinsic weakness in learning the works of some scientists and philosophers as if considering some of their assertions as valid -- is something to be ashamed of." I think learning is admirable. I have always been a great reader. I recommend as good reading "The Story of Philosophy" which I found to be much better than Schopenhauer, Hegel and Nietzche. Will and Ariel Durant give a clear picture of the subject from the ancients to the present day. I try to keep up with science by subscribing to "Science News Weekly", "Natural History", "Smithsonian", "Civilization" and the "National Geographic." I try to keep up with current events with my daily newspaper, "Utne Reader", "Mother Jones" and the "Washingon Spectator". "Instead of acknowledging the contents of a previous post to which you concur in some degree you post another message as if nothing had been said. I see you do this repeatedly." It's nice to know that you monitor my postings. Should i be flattered? And just what is there to acknowledge in your post? What new theory did you propound? What gem of wisdom? You have an extremely high opinion of yourself. Unfortunately it is not warranted. When I said "Arguing with a religionist is an exercise in futility" Personally I think it was a neatly turned phrase. Don't you? I closed my post with "The shadow of doubt must originate in his/her own mind." I suggest you spend some of the time you use for reading to enroll in a course on English composition. You took more than three times the space I used and did not express yourself one third as well. I am underwhelmed by your literary ability. - 5:36:12 on 25 Feb 98 GMT

Rob:GRANT: Hear Hear! I agree that going on the defensive, whilst maybe adding a little excitement to a person's otherwise insipid day, does not act to maximise the learning rewards from a discussion. I try to keep in mind that it is possible to learn something from anyone, whether or not they are correct in their beliefs, and that also I do not have a monopoly on the "truth". Of course, some may not be here for intellectual gain from discussion (and thus may prefer to remain defensive/even offensive), but if this does inhibit others' discussions, then perhaps you are right, in that you may be in the wrong place. - 9:49:55 on 25 Feb 98 GMT

Rob:GRANT: Though I might distinguish "going on the defensive" as a hostile attitude from attempting to defend a belief/theory rationally (the latter playing an important role in the learning process). RICHARD:I was a little disappointed in not hearing a response from you. Maybe you are busy, it's just I doubt you would want anyone to "score points off you" from your failure to respond. I will wait until tonight then... - 9:56:46 on 25 Feb 98 GMT

PETER:--PAPASAM---Yes, whether you think it is warranted or not, this whipper-snapper, despite his long and often redundant posts, does a high opinion of himself. Got a problem with that? GRANT--Yes we all do look bad at times--but the insults invariably begin with the theists. What ont ehen can do is pretty well abandon the argument, only after a quick retaliation of course! - 12:21:12 on 25 Feb 98 GMT

SATANANANANAN:So, has anyone here actually thought about what they've written, unlike me??? Curious, it really would be best for you to join the ranks of atheists... I can send you my adoption papers to sign. Richie boy, aren't you convinced by now that it is only by following me that you'll get anywhere in this world? My idealism is innocuos. I don't know what that means. I like to eat chocolate coated quadratic functions... right after I differentiate them. But of course, I would never use my Van de Graff generator to cause fluctuations in the electrical content of the present atmosphere. Otherwise, I think my belief system is entirely stable. I think that I also need some sleep. Can you please pass the salt? Jesus, my friend Jesus, said 'Salt is good...' did you know that? Anyway, as I was saying, I was walking down the street when Joe came up to me and he said to me he said "Bob, why don't you come down with me and bring Edna along and we can watch the race" so I said to Joe I said "look, Joe, I think that's real nice of you, you know, REAL NICE, but I think Edna mightn't like me to call off the Kaputnik thing... if you know what I mean". Then Joe says to me he says "Oh, OK Bob". So then my gravy went ENTIRELY cold and chunky, so I had to call the thought police over to cool off the paradigms, if you know what I mean!!! - 12:32:04 on 25 Feb 98 GMT

SATAN@collectiveminds.plausibilityscale.com:Grant, do you REALLY expect ANYONE to believe ANYTHING you say? I mean, for goodness sake, your name spelled backwards is Tnarg. Hardly desirable. No credibility at all. So, Joette, how's the wife? - 12:35:15 on 25 Feb 98 GMT

Bill...:Mardi Gras was great fun, but I'm all wore out! GRANT, I agree to a point with your post---concerning hostility and emotions towards those of differing opinions---and I try to treat everyone with respect here. I've never had a problem talking with Anselm, Tony, James, or anyone else here that was seriously attempting to express their views. I will say that most have responded in kind to me. However, people who come here to "flame" or attempt to create "fear," deserve whatever they get. Without mutual respect and reciprocity any conversation is a waste of time. I generally just discontinue a conversation unless there is reciprocity and for this reason I see no point in future attempts at conversation with people like Richard. He has a one-sided agenda and is here only on his terms, so he is not worthy of my love, ha! - 12:37:49 on 25 Feb 98 GMT

PETER:--BILL--I guess we'll all just have to follow your example now don't we, you pandering, self-righteous bore---oops, sorry--gotta be nice... - 13:22:03 on 25 Feb 98 GMT

jaywilson--watching Mister Rogers and singing along...:"It's a beautiful day in the neighborhood, a beautiful day to be neighbors/Would you be mine?/ Could you be mine?" - 13:37:12 on 25 Feb 98 GMT

Grant:JAYWILSON-- Fuck you - 14:00:29 on 25 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene:JAYWILSON- As usual, you've started my day off wrong. When I read your post, I started choking and spewed my coffee all over the computer screen, keyboard and my overalls. That was gooooood! Sorry Grant, lol! - 14:54:58 on 25 Feb 98 GMT

Mean Marlene with no apologies:While on the subject of Beaver Cleaver neighborhoods, let's just agree that they are as fictional as Snoffaloffagas (sp) is to everyone but Big Boid. I may not be nice but I am honest. When a religionist comes to this discussion spewing their dogma in an attempt to convert or as they say "save", how can one reason with something so unreasonable? From the start, they insult the atheists here by claiming they are special by being morally above all other due to their "personal" relationship with an imaginative entity. Just what can I learn from such a person? The causes and traits of mental illness? I'm not on the board to melt with religion but I do like to learn of the other newer and less heard of imaginary beliefs and then may learn something of those. Xtainity is old news and rather boring. I don't go to their sites and try to reason with them as it is pointless but if they come here in an attempt to save me then I'll, with prejudice, tell them exactly what I think. I have nothing to learn from these ding-bats other than if I do become desperate, how to intregate a kangaroo into the family. - 15:11:06 on 25 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene..:SATANANAN- Sounds kind of Middle Eastern but then again I suppose thems your roots. Who in your hell is Joe and Edna? - 15:14:18 on 25 Feb 98 GMT

PETER:jaywilson--.....we are all neighbo(u)rs in this big wonderful world we live in.......La la la la la la ......SUUUnny day........:-) :-) :-) la la la la!!! .......May I pin a "Happy Face" on YOUR lapel?? - 15:37:23 on 25 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:SATAN: saw your flick "The Devils Advocate" sort of cute, ina mary poppins kinds way. GRANT, I think an exchange with a thiest/diest type would be or could be an invigorating exchange of ideas if they could iscribe something that is of and about themselves. But as you have seen as well as have the others here, they just patch and paste or whatever that thing is that some of them have done. I for one would really like to see what is in their can of nuts and bolts. As I have admitted until I began using the resource that is this gadget, I was, as I have read elsewhere, a soft atheist- I just did not believe and don't bug me. Now, as you pointed out above, the numerous logical and reasonable ideas for and against a god thing, have in my judgement of these manmade things, I now say that there is no god, just myth and superstition these are continued by the grace[?]of ignorance and preferred ignorance- this I must add. But if one of the religious believer types, of this there are many beliefs religion is just an example of one belief, could drop their myth and superstition sources and simply give an account for their choice, it might be interesting. - 15:43:09 on 25 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene:CARL- _The Devil's Advocate_, does that where Joe and Edna come in? - 16:12:42 on 25 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:GRANT: What annoys me about theist/diest types most of all is their lack of sincerity as the religious thing concerns their subjective experience of the god thing. They spew forth stuff that offends me, and probably others too, as would a conversation with a zombie- humans with normal behavior but without subjective mental states [def.per D.J.Chalmers] MARLENE, maybe they are his favorite relatives, you kno'the kind that can't leave soon enough. - 16:30:27 on 25 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene..:CARL- I like the zombie comparison! Maybe, I have relatives like that. Because of my less than cordial disposition, they've never visited me. - 17:19:05 on 25 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:MARLENE: I read that zombie thing in an article on consciousness. As soon as I read it, its'application became nearly immediately apparent and obvious. - 17:46:54 on 25 Feb 98 GMT

Joette who would be arrested if she had a wife...:-->SATAN..not big on collective minds, but I love Collective Soul! - 18:11:55 on 25 Feb 98 GMT

jaywilson:MARLENE: Sorry about the coffee; just don't be eating or drinking when you check out this URL, OK? - 18:41:31 on 25 Feb 98 GMT

jaywilson:Let's try again. - 18:47:24 on 25 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene:JAYWILSON- But I be eatin and drinkin all da time. What else there be to do in da nort? JOETTE- Even the mention of the word "collective" either reminds me of the Borg (and we all know who they remind us of) or Paul Martin. - 18:47:42 on 25 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene..:JAYWILSON- Looks like Cookie has left the strip, only to be replaced by (yuck, puke, spit) Wayne Newton. - 18:51:05 on 25 Feb 98 GMT

jaywilson:Once more, with feeling--and a tad more skill? - 18:52:18 on 25 Feb 98 GMT

jaywilson:MARLENE: Forgive my all-thumbs approach here, but should this URL appear, click on Web Parody and then on the newest one; all should be made clear. - 19:00:45 on 25 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene..all is clear and I've decided to be more neighbOUrly..:JAYWILSON- I'll have to add Maggie to my own arsenal of my Howdy Dudy In Your Face Napalm Fueled Flame Thrower, Friendly Giant Scud Launcher and Do-Bee 52 Bomber. Then I'll join the neighbOUrhood watch to attack any RCMP vE-hickles that raid my neighbOUrs "hemp" crops. I lurved the Keith Richards tour! - 20:09:06 on 25 Feb 98 GMT

Steven:Steven<<>>man what a day!!!!RON<<>>I am glad you had some good news :-)!!!!1 - 20:37:38 on 25 Feb 98 GMT

PapaSam:MEAN MARLENE. Right on! I agree with you 100%. If a holy roller wants to put his empty head on the atheist chopping block he deserves everything he gets. - 21:03:00 on 25 Feb 98 GMT

Steven:MARLENEthespleen<<>>don't know why I said that. Anyway, to much coffee today, mon ami? - 21:50:54 on 25 Feb 98 GMT

Bill..:peter, Peter, PETER….Once again you're full of yourself! - 22:29:21 on 25 Feb 98 GMT

Bill..:RON, Where have you been and who are you going to give this board to? - 22:36:30 on 25 Feb 98 GMT

Bill..:The eleventh commandment at Mardi Gras yesterday was, "My rod and my shaft shall comfort me." - 22:39:52 on 25 Feb 98 GMT

Bill..:The twelfth commandment is, "Show me your tits." - 22:42:19 on 25 Feb 98 GMT

Joette...enjoying a little levity...:-->BILL...shouldn't your rod and shaft be comforting someone else? - 22:47:53 on 25 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:JOETTE: And, of course, not that there is anything wrong with self-gratification. - 22:49:43 on 25 Feb 98 GMT

me again:-->BILL..and your twelfth commandment at Mardi Gras is actually the first commandment at the Cincinnati 500. - 22:52:09 on 25 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:ANY: afterall, we are not xtians and neither are we for xtain-like denials here - 22:52:59 on 25 Feb 98 GMT

Joette speaking Seinfeldese..:-->CARL..does this mean your aren't master of your domain? - 22:53:24 on 25 Feb 98 GMT

Jodoughbrain:-->What is the number one question I won't be asking today? Would it be: "So, what are you guys giving up for Lent?" LOL! - 22:55:02 on 25 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:Lent?: give up? well for sure, nothing cruel and unusual and probably nothing that is rare and delightful, nor happy making, what would it be? - 23:18:20 on 25 Feb 98 GMT

Steven:Jodoughbrain<<>>I thought it was ash wensday. - 23:19:14 on 25 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->STEVEN..it is Ash Wednesday. Today is the first day of Lent. So maybe I'll give up lentles. - 23:30:51 on 25 Feb 98 GMT

Bill..:JOETTE, Well, to answer your question, actually no! I am a male, remember! Lol. How can you tell when your wife/girlfriend is about to reach her sexual mountain top???? Who cares…hahahahha! These two girls standing next to me yesterday had the strap-on boobs and buttocks hidden beneath their clothing. When the floats came by they let it all hang out…all for those cheap little beads---great fun! I liked the tassels hanging from the nipples of her inflated boobs. I had to throw her a couple of beads myself, ha! Gotta run and entertain the relatives, bye! - 1:41:01 on 26 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->BILL...I think it's time your spouse came home. - 4:22:29 on 26 Feb 98 GMT

PapaSam:ALL. Henny Youngman, a famous stand-up comic died the other day at the age of 91. He was known for his one-liners. The one I liked best is "I once wanted to be an atheist but I gave it up - they don't have any holidays." Sad but true. That's the cross we must bear for being atheists. - 5:06:33 on 26 Feb 98 GMT

RICHARD:PapaSam; But you like to take the advantage of CHRISTIAN ( holidays ) don't you ? and all you other atheists. All that special pay rates for working on Christian holidays. If you were true you all would say to your employers, " I'm not Christian, so do not give me any EXTRA, and I do not want time off either ! Yeah, deny Christ but TAKE any advantage you can, RIGHT ? - 8:41:09 on 26 Feb 98 GMT

Jessica:RICHARD: I'm sure if you were offered days off and special pay rates you'd take them whether you thought there was a reason for them or not. Of course people are going to take advantage of that sort of thing if it's there. PapaSam: The cross we must bear for being atheists is that we don't have any easy explanations for life and what happens to us. We take the harder route as far as I'm concerned: it's much easier to just believe in something and have it all explained for you than to face the possibility that there's nothing out there. - 9:56:10 on 26 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->RICHARD...there are still some questions asked of you that some of us are waiting to hear your anwers to. - 11:49:06 on 26 Feb 98 GMT

Rob:RICHARD: First, I will remind you that I am still waiting for a response. Next, aside from the fact that I suspect Papasam is retired (n'est-ce pas?), I refer to your homepage whereby you disassociate Christmas and Easter from true christian holidays, so I take it you work them too? Anyway, I am not employed (so your comments don't apply), and even if I were, the fact that the society I live in has chosen its holidays to coincide with pagan/christian/whatever festivals says nothing about my beliefs. Let me put it this way: it wouldn't bother me if our vacations were at any other time of the year, just so long as we still got them. - 12:04:23 on 26 Feb 98 GMT

Rob:For anyone wishing to see what Richard says about Christmas/Easter, this link should save you the trauma of ploughing through his website - 12:12:54 on 26 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->JESSICA..I agree with you to a certain extent about taking advantage of special pay rates and such, but in this country (Canada) it is not a matter of taking advantage of proclaimed xtian holidays. Our labour code is such that all employees, regardless of religious orientation are given those days, special pay rates etc., so it is not a matter of taking advantage. Very few employees have a say in what days they want off, due to the fact that our constitution recognizes the supremecy of god (puke). There have been several precedent setting legal cases though, were certain individuals with other than xtian beliefs have been allowed the same advantages of those that fall under the xtian belief, but not many of us have the resources to challenge our Supreme Court. This is getting lengthy so I shall shut up now. - 12:15:44 on 26 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->ROB..thanks for the shortcut. So now the scripture according to Richard is that Christmas is actually the day Satan is worshipped. Who will break this news to the pope? - 12:21:40 on 26 Feb 98 GMT

Rob:Joette: You forget, according to Richard, "Tthe name ANTIOCHUS means (withstander); the Latin VICARIUS is from the Greek ANTI, therefore the title of the Pope as VICARIUS CHRISTI means ANTI CHRIST !!", so I would guess he already knows? - 13:06:06 on 26 Feb 98 GMT

PETER:--RICHARD--Now what if you were transferred for whatever reason to another country which practiced Muslim let's say, and you were offered double time for working during one of their holidays. Do you honestly think, by the virtue of your conictions and integrity, refuse the extra pay, simply because you WEREN'T a Muslim? Also by your standard, should all those who live in my community who are NOT christian do the same? - 13:09:34 on 26 Feb 98 GMT

RON...--->BILL...: I've been busy trying to live a full life and keep out of the way of my raging wife. I managed to stop all the nonsense of depositions and have her focus on the final settlement. I cannot see my son due to the threats to my life, but, people can be the lowest of life forms. I promised not to mention who MIMM is to be passed on to. I will keep that promise. You will all be in good hands and I will continue to post here after my change. I will post undr a different title. Bill, how have you been? How's the family? Have you picked up Arthur C. Clark's latest book, _3001, the Final Odyssey_? One of the points he is trying to make in the book is how religion changes. In 3001, mentioning the word "God" has today's effect of calling another a "motherfucker". Very poor taste. In his novel, "Theist", believe there is more than one god and "Deist" believe there is not less than one god, and they both argue. There is no other concepts of god beyond those two in his book. Very interesting how he sees the future. I am please with the story so far to page 100 or so. Soon, I will be able to visit you, btw. I will be close, briefly. - 15:13:33 on 26 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:RICHARD: True action, you seem to say that such is consequential to an inner-world argument? You sound as if you mean to join a discussion of some jews that discuss the prospects of rebuilding their temple, "...as it will be upon the truth of the spoken word." RICHARD, obviously you have access to the nonsense of religious scripture, but still you mean to use a name of a thing you've never seen, outside of your inner-world, that in my view of you, you merely imagine that you speak with or hear that thing speak to you which I would argue is mystical of you and surely that you lack complete sanity. - 16:05:15 on 26 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene:RON- I know, I know, James??? Anyhow wouldn't he/she have to beable to be contacted? I'm glad to hear things are going a little better. Don't worry, unless whomever is threatening your life is a true nutcase, it's likely just a threat. To much time in the hoosecow for a simple act of revenge. I've had people threaten me too but all they did was shoot at my feet. They know that if anything happened to me that they'd be the NO.1 suspect. Lots of empty threats during a miserable divorce! - 16:07:28 on 26 Feb 98 GMT

Steven:MARLENE<<>>I have heard the term before, but I never figured out what it means. What the heck does hoosecow mean? Perhaps jail? - 16:33:51 on 26 Feb 98 GMT

jaywilson:RON: Picked up _3001_ myself this week, and just finished it. I do think Clarke's own convictions come through in his godly dichotomy, just as Einstein refused to acknowledge quantum theory; my problem with both men's stubbornness is that they are so cause-and-effect based in their thinking. Clarke may have been best off stopping the series after _2061_, all things considered; the ending of _3001_ is a bit sloppy. But hey, I'm not complaining; it was a good read for an afternoon. Sci-fi aside, I'd like to thank you for making it possible for me to meet the diverse range of folks on this forum; the experience has been--and, I hope, continue to be--an El Nino-ish tempest of exhilaration and frustration, bullshit and bullion. Good luck to you. - 16:46:42 on 26 Feb 98 GMT

Jerrod Spaugh:I think athiets will all burn in hell if they do not experience the love of Jesus Christ, I will pray for all of you And hope that one day you will meet the lord. And one more question, how can you not believe in the bible, without it we have no absolute standards!!!!!! - 16:52:00 on 26 Feb 98 GMT

Amy Risenhoover:Richard is the man, I want to have a relationship with him Are single - 16:54:12 on 26 Feb 98 GMT

Jerrod Spaugh:Athiets, Athiest can't you see, God is the way for you and me, Jesus Christ is his son, When we get to Heaven it's time for fun - 16:57:12 on 26 Feb 98 GMT

jaywilson--local vigilante--:JERROD: Get bent. AMY: You know not what you do. - 17:04:55 on 26 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:OPEN: Any non-theists/deists want to respond to the JERROD the mancub? - 17:11:55 on 26 Feb 98 GMT

Jerrod :Carl if you want some of me, come get it hoe - 17:15:13 on 26 Feb 98 GMT

jaywilson--gorillas in the midst?--:CARL: He's more a monkey boy than a mancub, as any anthropologist would affirm. I'll bet he has hair on his back; his writing confirms a tendency to drag his knuckles along the ground as he walks. - 17:30:04 on 26 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:JWILSON: Hoe? does that mean this JERROD psuedonym is a gardener? - 17:36:42 on 26 Feb 98 GMT

Jerrod :Jaywilson and Carl are yall athiests - 17:38:10 on 26 Feb 98 GMT

jaywilson--who calls a spade a spade--:CARL: Well, some kind of hoe-master, anyway. - 17:41:11 on 26 Feb 98 GMT

Steven Helm:I think that Jay and Carl are butt-buddies - 17:42:32 on 26 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:JERROD: I prefer to choose, so I prefer to think do these proposals lead to the conclusion of atheism? - 17:42:53 on 26 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene:CARL- Hoe aka whore. Must be some xtian school lambkin. STEVEN-yup! That's what it means alrighty. JARROD- Now that's not very xtian of you to be callin Carl a hoe. As for me buring in hell, don't think so! A creamatorium maybe but in your make-believe hell. AMY- I agree with JWILSON, Dicky Boid would be a very bad risk for any woman or man for that matter. I pity that poor kangaroo! - 17:44:33 on 26 Feb 98 GMT

Sara m.:I want to tell everyone not only am I an athiest, I also a gay female - 17:45:07 on 26 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:SHELM: Butt buddy, this is a strange term? Does it mean something general or specific? - 17:45:30 on 26 Feb 98 GMT

jaywilson--who knows a homo-phobic sap-iens when he reads one--:STEVEN: Obviously your Helm is un-manned. - 17:47:12 on 26 Feb 98 GMT

Jerrod Spaugh:Marlene hell is real and if you don't believe in Jesus as your Lord and Savior you will go there:also I did not call Carl a Hoe, someone else is using my name. Sorry for that carl - 17:48:40 on 26 Feb 98 GMT

jaywilson--que Sara, Sara?--:MS m: Congratulations! So? - 17:50:26 on 26 Feb 98 GMT

Jerrod Spaugh:I don't want to shove Chrisitanity down anyone's throat because I do this out of love, and hope that you will join me in Heaven when our time on earth is through, I'm sorry if I've upset anyone I make no apologies though. Jesus is the only way and it will always be that way - 17:51:36 on 26 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:SARAm: we all think we are special because of whatever reason, so how does or goes your thinking? - 17:53:18 on 26 Feb 98 GMT

Guess:I was the one impersonating Jerrod, because you guys suck Get off of me hoochies - 17:53:39 on 26 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:JERROD: At this site one must say 'something' first, so far you inscribe inanely, for example where is heaven? Ever been there? What did you see? Was it real or invisible? What is jesus? - 17:57:50 on 26 Feb 98 GMT

CodyBurris:Let me ask you .....Do you belive the bible is real?And if so do you belive that what it sais is true? - 18:06:49 on 26 Feb 98 GMT

Joette...is the MAD section of snappy answers to stupid questions?...:-->obviously someone has let a Grade 9 class loose in the computer room! SARA..is your lesbianism a result of your atheism, or is your atheism a result of your lesbianism? And why do you feel it necessary to pronounce your sexual proclivities? - 18:13:51 on 26 Feb 98 GMT

If you do not belive that the bible and Jesus Christ, you will burn in hell for eternity. Believing in Jesus is all about faith. People from the beggining of time have placed their faith in God and he has set them free and he is still setting people free. - 18:13:56 on 26 Feb 98 GMT

jaywilson--calling all:HATCHLINGS: Ferlinghetti was right; there really _is_ a Coney Island of the Mind. Can't stay for the cotton candy and hot dogs, though; beef is what's for lunch. - 18:14:48 on 26 Feb 98 GMT

Joette..hot dog!..:-->do we get to take weenies to the big barbecue in the sky? - 18:15:40 on 26 Feb 98 GMT

CodyBUrris:I will pray for you all, and God Bless YOU!!! - 18:16:07 on 26 Feb 98 GMT

Joette..and Gideon checked out, and left it no doubt to help with good Rocky's revival..:-->CODY..of course the bible is real. It is the most widely published, and most unread, book in the world. It contains as much truth and historical information as Mother Gooses's collection of nursery rhymes. - 18:19:19 on 26 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->CODY..please don't pray for me Argentina. Your "good" intentions are not required, not are they welcomed. Unless you want to pray for me to win the lottery this weekend. - 18:22:13 on 26 Feb 98 GMT

-->AMY..good news for you! Richard is definitely single. - 18:23:31 on 26 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:CODY: Tell you what there cowboy, when I watch the bullridin'event there is always a coupla' cody's-no offense meant, anyway as JOETTE points out yes it is made on wood products and in words comprehendible by assorted kinds and sorts of humanity. But what is the god thing you mention as blessin'whoever? I've seen a few weird and even strange things, but never a god? Where is it? - 18:26:16 on 26 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->CARL..do you think this new delusion of fundie has proof of a god's existence? Guess we don't have to think too hard on that one. - 18:30:39 on 26 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:JOETTE: The confusion that they voluntarily jump into, is invariably only that- just confusion. However, if one o'these individuals could think of something different, comeup with something different it could be interesting to see. It might be another alice in wonderland thing, that was fun readin stuff,"Off with their heads" - 18:40:42 on 26 Feb 98 GMT

PapaSam:STEVEN. That should be hoosegow woth a 'g' and it is a slang expression for jail which originated in the early 1900s. - 18:50:00 on 26 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:P'SAM: What thoughts and stuff do have to share about that School district in L.A. that approved a plan to arm with shotguns the outfit that "cares for" their children. A good bet, if they shoot one of the students it won't be one the leaders of the problem before that school district. - 19:09:02 on 26 Feb 98 GMT

Monthly Book Review ::--THE BIBLE: Occaisionally like Aesop's fables with a lot of mean people, and especially one really nasty god who likes killing people, just to show how tough he is. Later on some guy comes around, claiming to be the "son" of this god, and pretty well says " You gotta be nice, be poor--or else my daddy will zap ya." Entire book is chock full of tyrants and out of control egos. Often incoherent, repetive ( e.g. Ps 14 and 53 are virtually identical )and keeping in pace wih the tyrannical nature of the god--frequently self-contradictory throughout. Makes a lousy fairy tale, makes a lousy historical recount, attempts to intimidate and encourages one to practice evasion of knowledge apart from its contents. Far too many characters mentioned--with the majority having nothing to do with the events mentioned. EXTREMELY boring, and virtually incoherent. As a last resort; its potential to be "bathroom literature"? Doesn't come close to Reader's Digest, or even the backside of a toothpaste tube, or shampoo container. In the end one shudders to think that life was destroyed (trees ) to manufacture it. However, if one were really conscientious about the plant's environment, all copies should go directly into some recycling concern. - 19:13:28 on 26 Feb 98 GMT

Steven:MARLENE<<>>i agree with you. Who let the jr. high christian school kids onto the computers. I have yet to see such immaturity on this site. I can't believe a good christian parent would let their child on to the heathenous computers. They may learn something! heaven forbid. LOL - 19:26:50 on 26 Feb 98 GMT

Steven:MBR<<>>I agree, and it couldn't have been said better. - 19:28:00 on 26 Feb 98 GMT

PapaSam:JERROD. we would be much better off without the standards set by your bible. You so called "good book" encouraged wars and destruction. It called for the killing of all the inhabitants including the woman and children, including babies - well not all - they did say to save the young virgins. The god of your bible turns Lot's wife into a pillar of salt fot the terrible sin of turning around to look at the burning city of Sodom, but apparently it was no sin for Lot to commit incest with his daughters. Some role model. His ten commandments are a joike. We've already seen how he shrugged off his "Thou shalt not kill" The first four are all for his own aggrandizement. 'thou shall not have any other gods before me." That's really defending his turf - he can't stand any competition.He's a good father too. Has hs own son tortured and killed to save future generations yet unborn. This by an all powerful god who creates universes and all life therein. Looks to me that he's not too bright if he can't think of a better way. I have read your bible and I found two themes running through it. Threats of eternal damnation and the degradation of women. God made man from dust, but he couldn't waste any more dust to make a measly woman so he broke off a lousy little piece of Adam's rib to make a woman. Then he had a talking snake (neat trick) trick her into the original sin, and women have been carrying the sin gene ever since. Women are cursed and unclean. They are fit only for breeding purposes and to satisfy men. Your kind and loving god, according to your bible, caused the flood. Outside of Noah (the drunk) and his family and some specimen animals he drowned the whole evil world. He drowned all the men and women and children, the toddlers walking by their mothers side, the infants suckling at their mother;s breasts and even those sinning little fetuses in their mothers wombs. He really showed those little sinners who was boss. I'm curious about one thing. Do animals sin too? What did they do to deserve being crowned? Maybe you can tell me, Jerrod. Like father, like son. Jesus also wanted to be first in the hearts of his countrymen. Love me or you'll burn in hell. On the one hand you try to show your boy as a kind and loving soul. On the other hand you threaten, just as your lover boy did. Luke 19-27. "But these mine enemies that would not that I reign over them, bring them thither and slay them before me." These are the standards you want to impose on the world? You poor sick bastard. Too bad jesus isn't around now. What a great job of brown-nosing you could do. And just think. You could be hanging around with him , his whore, and his twelve women hating buddies. - 19:28:33 on 26 Feb 98 GMT

Kevin.....:Papa Sam--Are you drinking today? - 19:38:28 on 26 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:KEVIN: That is a very telling observation that you share, anyone who attempts any association with that book or those who adhere to its nonsense, will have the appearance of drunkeness or insanity. Only the truth of its nonsense will free the world of its unhappiness and meaninglessness. - 19:58:16 on 26 Feb 98 GMT

RON...--->jaywilson....:I, have not picked up _2061_ but, I will look for it. I find the book interesting at least, but I hate sloppy endings. You're welcome. I am not the creator of this page by no means. This wonderful forum was passed onto me from Simon, my British friend. (He has a real job now, btw) - 19:59:35 on 26 Feb 98 GMT

RON...--->Marlene...you never miss a thing....: I hope the new owner of MIMM allows contact from it's main users. I have never had a problem from any of you. - 20:04:02 on 26 Feb 98 GMT

PETER-->>:--Man o' man!!---some real well-deserved "Bible Bashing" today!! - 20:08:02 on 26 Feb 98 GMT

PETER:--PapaSam--Yes, too bad about ole' Henny. My favourite: DOCTOR ( Jewish of course ) Im sorry to inform you sir, you have only six months to live...now that will be 200 dollars. PATIENT: But doctor, I don't HAVE 200 dollars! DOCTOR--OK fine, I'll give you another six months! - 20:12:19 on 26 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene..you better hang around for the May Event:RON- Nope, he won't have any problems from me. The threat to run over his hot orange car with my truck was in the past, anyhow, I wouldn't run the US right now, to expensive lol! James knows that I'm just joking. Give him my e-mail address if he wants it. - 20:24:55 on 26 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene:PAPASAM- Hoosecow is Kanadian for hoosegow. BTW, how did that name originate, do you know? - 20:27:02 on 26 Feb 98 GMT

RON...--->Marlene...: Did I foget to tell you about my mother-n-law pulling a gun on me in front of Susan and Ian? I almost feel sorry for these people sometimes, but then I regain my senses and just say, "screw'em, I no longer care". Looks like the teeny-bopper section kicked in with a few "I'll pray for you posts". Marlene, on your way to hell please don't forget to write, and please pass the jelly. - 20:27:18 on 26 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene:STEVEN- The members of the Xtian/Borg schools are rightly called Lambkins. The one that called Carl a hoe is least likely to succeed to graduate from that morbid institution. Probably pissed cause his parents made him attend. - 20:30:29 on 26 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene:RON- That's right crude! We don't call it jelly here in this civilized country, we call it E.D. Smith! Now that's the attitude, screw em'! Nothing your going to do will change them. - 20:38:24 on 26 Feb 98 GMT

RON...--->Marlene...: I will reconnect to MIMM after I've made another home for myself. I won't miss May 31, 1998 for anything. Notice that our President is getting into hotter and hotter waters as we close on the end of May, 1998. Can you say, "assasination"? - 20:39:58 on 26 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene:Yup! I'm not only an atheist but I'm also an axe-murderer (inherited the axe-murdering meme from cousin Lizzie). I'm not only an atheist but I'm a satanist, inherited that meme from by cousin Anton. I'm not only atheist but I'm bewildered why theists always associate what they feel is "deviant" behavior with a lack of belief in the supernatural. - 20:44:22 on 26 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene:CODY- Ya all bronk ride for jee-zus? Don't waste your time prayin for me little buddy, in fact don't waste your time prayin. - 20:48:20 on 26 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene:RON- Naaaaaa! An assination, haven't Americans grown out of that yet? - 20:49:45 on 26 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->RON..May 31st? Can't the aliens postpone it for a week or two? My birthday is the day after, and shucks, now I'll miss the presents. - 21:07:53 on 26 Feb 98 GMT

RON...--->Joette...:How are you? I've missed our enchanting emails and your inspiring wit. I have discovered the information we spoke of and find it fasinating. I'm excited and thrilled to have the chance to write my own small piece of history. I'm beginning to see the light again. Soon, I'll take my sword from it's dark prison and shine it to the edges. As I walk threw the valley of the shadow of death, I fear no evil, cause my heart has healed and I'm hard as a rock and ready to roll. A head-cutting mood is where I'm at. Let loose the dogs of war and I'll fuck them all ! I've whiped my ass with better stuff than God. I feel much better, thank you. - 21:23:05 on 26 Feb 98 GMT

PETER:--MARLENE--Great post about "deviant behavior". Scratch the surface of a theist and we have the seeding--ground of a drooling bigot. - 21:26:25 on 26 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->RON..I am glad you are doing better, too. If you missed our e-mails, you know where I am... - 22:36:13 on 26 Feb 98 GMT

test - 23:00:48 on 26 Feb 98 GMT

James--->Marlene...:Are you playing with crystal balls again...lol...seriously, what makes you think I am going to be the new owner of the page? - 23:05:13 on 26 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->JAMES..just in case Marlene doesn't come back till late tonight, may I mention that either you or Ron stated it in a posting not long ago. He either said "When James takes over the page.." or you said "I may take over this page.." - 23:11:38 on 26 Feb 98 GMT

PapaSam:KEVIN. I don't drink,but your bible almost drove me to drink. I notice you didn't deny any of the things I said about your favorite father and son combination or your religion's opinion about women -including your mother. Do you accept that women are sinful and corrupt by nature? I don't. I'd love to hear your answer. - 23:51:10 on 26 Feb 98 GMT

RICHARD:Jesus is Lord ! a confession alien to you atheists, but nonetheless TRUE, for so Jesus is. A fool says that there is NO God, and indeed I laugh at them, I laugh them to scorn even as God laughs them to scorn. Atheist is also spelt 'FOOL' - 0:55:04 on 27 Feb 98 GMT

RON...--->RICHARD...:Jesus says, "give me a break". Do you click your heels together over and over when you speak such nonsense? This God of yours sounds a lot like Darth Vader. - 1:47:33 on 27 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->RICHARD..are your children homosexuals? - 2:16:11 on 27 Feb 98 GMT

PETER:--RICHARD---Since your are determined to argue at this school-yard level mentality, has it occured to you that I being an atheist, could just as easily call YOU a fool because you DO believe in God. And we could go back and forth for ever at this level--and nothing would be resolved. So now how do we determine who is correct? Either there is a God--or there isn't one? I don't see the exchange of barbs and unsupported bold statements accomplishing anything here. - 3:41:20 on 27 Feb 98 GMT

SATAN:Joette... thanks again for the great night we had on Wednesday - we'll have to do it again sometime. Just remember not to strangle my wangle. Anyways, I saw Joe again yesterday and he said to me he said "Bob, whatcha doin' on Saturdee?" and I says to him I says, "Joe, I can't tell ya... you know, the freemasonry secrets thing?" so then we went to the mega multiplex mini dolbyplus googogolplex with surround sound on fifth and saints, and we watched 'The Devil's Advocate'. It may surprise all of you, but I actually did NOT write it. It was based on some of my major accomplishments, but they got it all wrong! Like when Princess Leia tells Luke that she's his sister... THAT NEVER BL**DY WELL HAPPENED!!! Oh well... I guess you can't always expect hollywood to get it right! - 4:14:24 on 27 Feb 98 GMT

SATAN:Peter, in all fairness, I think that we must conclude that we are ALL fools! I certainly believe in myself, and I did that long before Des said "I think, therefore I am", and I know that you believe in yourself and Richie Rich believes in the God whom he submits to, which unfortunately is not me, but he has his point in that the 'fool hath said in his heart there is no god' and you are tight in saying that he is a fool for believing without ANY reason or logic whatsoever that his God exists, even though of course I know He exists, I gotta fill out those damn 'Possession request' forms and get HIS approval everytime I make one of my dealings with man, and I know I'm a fool because I like to rant and rave all sorts of claptrap and pass it as a good argument!!! - 4:20:05 on 27 Feb 98 GMT

SATAN (Poo Pusher):Joette, my children are homosexuals, can they play with yours? - 4:21:11 on 27 Feb 98 GMT

STAN (I mean SATAN):Now that I've made that rather brash and off hand comment, I would like to reveal to you petty earthlings my long term plan of destruction. I plan to make sure that homosexuality becomes so prevalent in society that no one can have babies anymore, and then the human race will die out. Of course, I'll have to do something about those artificial insemination factories, but that shouldn't prove difficult. Anyway, as Joe always says 'If you can't beat 'em, join 'em'. So of course, I blasted him away with my new phaser. - 4:24:45 on 27 Feb 98 GMT

SATAN:Oh, and Richard, remember FOOL spelled backwards is LOOF!!! I like that one... Loof! So, remember, the over-simplification of diametrical post-modern idiosyncracies could lead to a schism in dipolar philosophical boundaries. - 4:26:53 on 27 Feb 98 GMT

PETER---:--SATAN--Of course! - 5:02:55 on 27 Feb 98 GMT

PapaSam:RICHARD. I just had a conversation with god and boy, is he pissed off at you! You should have heard him> "Where the hell does that piss ant Richard get the nerve to claim to speak for me? I created the whole f -#*&$@*-g universe and all the millions of life forms on it and that piddling nothing in my scheme of things has the balls to appoint himself my spokesman! I have more respect for an atheist than I do for those phonies who go around claiming to represent me. Those money grubbing bastards with their greedy hands held out for "the widow's mite', their 'tithing' , and their hundreds of radio and TV stations begging for money aren't working for me. I think I'll quit my job and join the "Freedom from Religion Foundation." - 5:03:24 on 27 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene:JAMES- Truthfully I don't remember reading the post that Joette read but I guessed that since you like this page too that you would be interested. - 5:18:48 on 27 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene:STAN aka SATAN- Can't be the same Stan that I know. He would have thought of cloning. Now what ya gonna do about that? BTW, I asked before and you haven't gotten back to me, how's Mother T? Driving you crazy? I know it's you that place people like Dicky Boid on the earth to spew the god drivel! You KNOW how that can irriate people. - 5:22:50 on 27 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene:DICKY BOID- Laughter is healthy. I'm happy to hear that you find us as humorous as we find you. How's the Mrs., oops..kangaroo? - 5:26:40 on 27 Feb 98 GMT

RICHARD:JESUS is LORD and NONE of you atheists will ever change that. JESUS IS GOD and none of you atheists will ever change that either. JESUS is SAVIOUR and none of you atheists will ever change that. ALL OF YOU will one day bow your knee to JESUS, YOPU ALL will confess that Jesus is Lord to the glory of God the Father; and I'll be there to see and hear you. Eevn if it takes a foot upon your necks before God's throne, you WILL ALL confess. - 9:34:20 on 27 Feb 98 GMT

Papa Sam - So you really DO believe in god then, if you spoke with him? - 11:05:40 on 27 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->SATAN..so that wasn't a dream? - 11:45:51 on 27 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->MARLENE..are you in the middle of the blizzard? It's been on the news and it looks mighty cold and white out there. - 11:47:44 on 27 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->RICHARD..you've disappointed me. You with all the answers, hiding behind the cloak of your saviour, could not answer one simple question. Last week you came here, screaming about homosexuals, and blaming the lack of family and religious values on that. With a broad sweep, you maintained that anyone not living the life of a righteous person (regardless if they have control over their situation or not) would end up being some sort of deviant. Since you have put your children through the fate of a broken home, if your theory is correct, that automatically gives them membership to "the alternative lifestyle" club. So I asked you to confirm, and you completely ignored me. Is that because you know that what you say isn't true??? Or are you and yours a special case, granted immunity from the wrath of god and satan? - 12:13:20 on 27 Feb 98 GMT

Joette (again and again and again):-->and one more foot down that slippery slope....it is now legal to grow hemp in Canada! Oh, we are an ungodly bunch of heathens, aren't we? - 12:15:23 on 27 Feb 98 GMT

jaywilson:JOETTE: The universe is undoubtedly unfolding as it should. - 12:39:09 on 27 Feb 98 GMT

...and if you believe that, I'll tell you another. - 12:40:22 on 27 Feb 98 GMT

RON...change of plans!...: I'm moving to Canada. My own hemp! - 13:00:39 on 27 Feb 98 GMT

Bill..:RON, Wow, the child fundie's have arrived. Sorry this is late; I've been busy with relatives, touring around and all. If you come this way, be sure to email me in advance, as I stay pretty well planned out. Why don't you pick up James and Steven when you come? It will give them a chance to bond on the drive over. No, I haven't read 3001…to busy. Sounds interesting though. Wife wants the computer. Gotta go, bye! - 13:02:20 on 27 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->RON..you realize of course that you will have to take up snowboarding if you want to grow your own grass. - 13:55:56 on 27 Feb 98 GMT

Steven:RON, JOETTE<<>>right on, grow some hemp for me! Now if we can wake all the sheep up in this country they will legalize it here. - 14:14:07 on 27 Feb 98 GMT

Carl:OPEN: Any here seen "Braveheart" if yea, then you recall the scene where the 'man' asked him to confess and kiss the emblem, so now we humble folk got RICHARD, instead of a braveheart kind of actor, who inscribes "All of you will one day bow your knee to jesus" is this right out of that flick or what? RICHARD's imagination does not serve his better interests. - 16:09:16 on 27 Feb 98 GMT

PETER:--RICHARD--Was my plea for civilized discussion too much for you? Why do you insist continuing with this preaching when it is so obvious that no one is buying it--nor will they ever if it is presented in this fashion. Just because you got sucked into it at a vulnerable moment, does not mean someone else will. All these admonismements and insults and curses, to say the least--look ridiculous. All it say to me is that you are incapable of defending your theistic beliefs in a rational manner, and that apparently it is impossible for one to do so. - 17:27:54 on 27 Feb 98 GMT

PapaSam:RICHARD. Jesus is god and jesus' father is god. That's a neat trick. It reminds me of the old hillbilly song - "I'm my own grampa". Tell me how you support yourself Richard. Do you get any money from your own web site? Do you sell items or ask for contributions? This is not a difficult question to answer. I think it's a legitimate question designed to see whether you are a hard working man who puts money from the fruits of his labors into his beliefs or makes money from them. - 18:31:39 on 27 Feb 98 GMT

RON...hmmm....:Drive to Georgia, stoned, with Steven and James killing each other in the back seat while I'm dreaming of snowboarding, stoned, and drive off the road and kill myself. Gosh! I love being an Atheist, stoned. - 18:52:12 on 27 Feb 98 GMT

PapaSam:ALL. I have sometimes been at odds with fellow atheists on their use of quotes. This was based on my feeling that they were not useful tools in arguing with a religionist. I still don't feel the pope would change his mind and give up his job because I quoted Robert Ingersoll to him. This does not imply disrespect on my part for the many fine writers I have enjoyed from the Greek philosophers to Ayn Rand. In the final analysis an argument must stand on its own merits. I don't know who first said that all children are born atheists. Unfortunately most of them are victims of indoctrination so intense and coming from the ultimate authorities - parents and other role models - that they cannot overcome it in later years. I don't believe that many atheists have been converted to disbelief. I think that almost all of us have reached our conclusions on our own. I have just finished reading the book "Women Without Superstition" 'No Gods, No Masters'. edited by Annie Laurie Gaylor. There was one which touched me very deeply and brought a tear to my eye and I am not one to get emotional. I think it should be required reading for every pro-lifer, especially women. They might just change their minds. The article "How I earned my feminist credentials" is by Sherry Matulis. - 19:12:29 on 27 Feb 98 GMT

ALL:PapaSam: Your name dropping and kudos-seeking feminism is a little nauseous, Sam. - 22:08:21 on 27 Feb 98 GMT

KEVIN:ALL: I think he hates women and is trying to score some points for something he did in the past - 22:14:25 on 27 Feb 98 GMT

PapaSam:KEVIN & SNEAKY (aka ALL) I am a staunch feminist and an atheist. The two facts are connected. As a child I read that women were unclean. I don't know how you feel about your mothers, but I knew my mother and sisters were all clean. Do you say your prayer every morning "Blessed art thou, o Lord God of Israel, that thou hast not made mea woman?" Do you lament with Job "How can he be clean that is born of women?" Do you prefer the saints such as St. Clement of Alexaandria "Every woman should be overwhelmed by shame at the thought she is a woman." How about St John Chrystostom "Among all savage beasts none is found so harmful as women." Maybe you prefer Martin Luther God created Adam lord of all living creatures but Eve spoiled it all." Well, I don't think my mother or my sisters or my daughters and granddaughters are the epitome of sin, but hey, I can't talk for your mothers. If you feel that way you must have a reason. - 22:57:21 on 27 Feb 98 GMT

jaywilson:KEVIN: What's it to you, monkey boy? For that matter, what's it to the rest of us? And since you cast the first stone, Junior Freud, may I suggest that _you_ have an unresolved problem with women? THE ANONYMOUS ALL (Kevin?):I for one prefer people dropped names (if not quotations) of folks _who actually lived_ instead of this jee-zus/gawd-you-gotta-believe-it-first-to-know-it's there crap. Sounds like you're envious of people who read and empathize. - 23:00:26 on 27 Feb 98 GMT

KEVIN:tough guys huh? I don't have any unresolved issues with women because I am a woman trapped in a man's body. So call me mommy-boy, not monkey boy. I don't think the women of the world need Papasam crying out for them. I am not also All. That person was there before I got here. Where in my posts does it say I am not an atheist? - 23:29:25 on 27 Feb 98 GMT

ALL:PapaSam: Nice "strawperson" argument there. Jaywilson: Sorry- 'twould appear we have crossed wires. This doesn't concern jee-zus, nor good reading. Just a case of sincerity being brought into question, due to the apparent zealousness with which "empathy" is expressed. - 0:08:00 on 28 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->jaywilson..I've been having computer problems today, and was only able to see a portion of the site you gave the URL for today. I have bookmarked, but is it facetious or serious reading? If it is the latter, I look forward to reading it, but if it is the former, I won't bother. - 0:17:31 on 28 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->PAPASAM..I don't know if ALL/KEVIN are serious, but as a woman, I am getting bored with your defense of my gender. It is the main theme of your arguments with every theist that posts here, and we all know what the bible says. It is almost the year 2,000, and I think the issue should be fought by us Gloria Steinems of the world. - 0:21:11 on 28 Feb 98 GMT

PapaSam:JOETTE. I will leave the defense to you and Gloria in the future. KEVIN or "mommy boy" if you prefer. You ask where did you say you were not an atheist. Well, that problem can be put to rest very simply. Are you an atheist? Now you can set the record straight. - 1:31:17 on 28 Feb 98 GMT

"PSEUDO" Steven<<<>>>>:----RICHARD---You know I'm really getting tired of you, asshole. Why the fuck don't you take your evil, stinking bible and get the fuck outof here--If I never saw a nother post from you it would be too soon. Did you know that it was CHRISTIANS who went around killing millions of people throughout history, in the name of your good book. It's guys like you that just make me want to puke. Now get the fuck out of here and leave us peaceful and intelligent atheists alone--you fucking jerk. - 2:08:16 on 28 Feb 98 GMT

"PSEUDO" Carl::I think the simplest way to correct erring dysfunctional correlational 'neo-nymphs' is to view the former with the latter in mind, knowing full well that you can't exhibit any rationality with the contextual differences of anti-semantic logics under the auspices of the 'yes-men' articularities. But no, there cannot be any mistake that over-enthusiastic zealots who put their cream on the frim-fram are nothing more than idle jam throwers when my logic is clear. - 4:21:20 on 28 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene:OOOOOOO! Da PSEUDO POSTER is back! Damn is this place dead tonight! What's with all these people announcing their sexual preferences? "A woman trapped in a man's body", sheesh! Although it could be the best of both worlds lol! Anyhow, did anyone watch ole Bill Clinton and his lamenting "faith" drivel? PAPASAM- I've never felt unequal although I admit I've met idiots that do think they are more equal that others, especially women. I think much of my self-esteem came from growing up on a farm and being the oldest of two girls. I could do anything that the neighborhood farm guys could do as well as bake etc. This equality thing goes a long way back in my family. My grandfather came from a family of four girls and five boys. All the girls and boys knew how to knit as well as shovel shit. I've never bought into the victimizing thing. - 6:40:40 on 28 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- Just reading another King novel and learned another good adjective for Dicky Boid, Pray Boy or actually it's Fucking Pray Boy, which ever Dicky may deserve at the time. Notice Quietsun hasn't visited, at least not visibly for awhile? He should be back anytime to gather some more material for his homepage. Pretty f-in sad when he has absolutely nothing to say of his own... - 6:46:11 on 28 Feb 98 GMT

RICHARD:PSEUDO; You are a FOOL like the rest who deny God and HIS CHRIST, YOU do NOT worry me, and your words are nonsense, do you think swearing means anything to me except to show your BUFOONERY ? - 7:48:03 on 28 Feb 98 GMT

VW:RICHARD... Yawn... - 8:22:40 on 28 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->RICHARD..if you are going to shout, at least try to spell correctly. - 11:46:43 on 28 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene:OOOOO! Pray Boy's got a new word! - 13:16:19 on 28 Feb 98 GMT

Some Guy Out There:Richie boy, I think you'll find that 'PSUEDO' was simply TAKING OFF, ie PARODYING Steven and his maliciousness. I think all of you may also be interested to know that psuedo stevey and psuedo carlos are not one and the same persons. I am the latter, and know not the former. - 13:17:42 on 28 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- You asked about the weather the other day. I'm lucky enough to live on the east side of the Peg but the west is snowed under. The highways are closed again today in that area but hopefully will be opened later on this morning. My honey is sitting somewhere in Sask. waiting for them to open to make it home. I can only imagine the mood he must be in lol! - 13:19:24 on 28 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene:SGOT- Before stating YOUR opinion on another poster's manner, your manner is in question IMO. Got something to say? put a name on it rather than parroting someone else. Remember your description of Steve as "malicious" is only YOUR opinion and not necessarily those of the others on this page. - 13:26:44 on 28 Feb 98 GMT

Grant:SGOT-- Yes, It's interesting that there are two "psuedos" out there, but I once heard someone say it's the crow that mocks the eagle; never the other way around. (Not a precise analogy, but you get the drift) - 17:04:31 on 28 Feb 98 GMT

Marlene:GRANT- HA HA! I like that one! I've never heard it but how true! - 17:54:42 on 28 Feb 98 GMT

PapaSam:JOETTE. If you're bored, turn the page. Every new theist on the page is a new pupil to be taught. I attack religion in every way I can. I think that's the purpose of this site. If I can make one woman realize what the church thinks of women I will have accomplished something. If I can use a man's emotions about "motherhood and apple pie" as we say here in the US, and equate his mother with what his religion says of all women, and induce a tiny spark of resentment, I will have accomplished something. If you have another way to promote atheism I'd be glad to hear it. You seem to me to be a little annoyed at the idea that someone is invading your turf. "Thou shalt not have any other atheist before me." I am not trying to compete with you. - 21:16:50 on 28 Feb 98 GMT

PapaSam:MARLENE. You are right about self esteem and victimization. I'm sure you have met many women who believe that "woman's place is in the home" and probably think of you as that "immoral atheist." - 21:21:26 on 28 Feb 98 GMT

PapaSam:RICHARD So tell me, how much are you making off your site down under? Maybe you could open a branch here in the USA. Hey, if the price is right I might even manage it for you. For a million bucks, what's a little personal integrity? Just visualize the headlines "PapaSam sees the light" "Well known atheist to head million dollar ministry." So tell me, how much are you raking in? I won't tell anyone. - 21:31:53 on 28 Feb 98 GMT

PapaSam:ALL Will RICHARD reveal how much money he makes from his religious website? Or will RICHARD have jesus or god strike Me dead? Will he swallow my bullshit? Or have we heard the last of him? - 21:37:56 on 28 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->SAM..and if you're boring, find a new page for christ's sake. Anything to get in a dig in, right? Well, if you have made one iota of a change in the theist's thinking that comes along here, then congratulations. It has been my experience that drive by shooters we see here are not here to have someone change their opinion, but rather quite the opposite. Or haven't you noticed that your questions go unanswered 99.999999% of the time? Maybe the ones who don't argue about the woman thing don't look down on women, because I have seen a lot of reaction to the violence mentioned in the bible, but I have yet to see anyone (except Richard who hates women because his wife fooled around on him) tell you that they consider women inferior. Now, if you were to ask me, I consider men inferior. I woman can do very nicely for an entire life without a man, but there are few men who can go their whole life without a woman. And I am completely serious. - 23:07:00 on 28 Feb 98 GMT

Joette:-->SAM..I wrote the previous post in haste while I was at work, and did not have time to address all of it. I could give two hoots who posts here. This is not my turf and if you don't want to compete with anyone, then that's great. If you want to make a difference in women's issues, why not get a McJob and see exactly what goes on in the real world, not just in the bible. It's all well and good that you sit there with your feminist halo shining, but exactly what have you done to help break the glass ceiling, helped women with health issues (yes, there are many more than men's health issues), and so on? Do you vote for women for congress, or the senate? What have you done???? - 0:03:27 on 1 Mar 98 GMT