Ricky :Good to here from you, Marlene. Thought you were lost. - 3:05:17 on 1 Jun 99 GMT

Carl :GRANT: I too have encountered an unexpected 'place' when I click on this site. This site is on my favorites so its not as if I'm doing a search for this place, as you understand. Then, sometime later I check again and lo', this site is back! As for this past weekend I've been out n'bout. - 14:20:06 on 1 Jun 99 GMT

Grant (out the door...) :CARL-- Something still seems to be goofy. The hosting service thinks it has to do with somebody else's caches or something. I wish they had not moved us. -- I'll be gone 'til Thur PM. - 14:27:36 on 1 Jun 99 GMT

Carl :OPEN: O'er the weekend for the first time I saw most of the movie,"Inherit the Wind", w\Jack Lemon and G.C.Scott. As ukno, it was based on the Scopes trial in Tennessee. O'this two things, I breesed o'er an article on the Drudge about a tennessee guy who holds that he has found noahs ark, for reals this time! Does this strike you as an honest- in all its parts, newsstory? I tend to think no. Its probably religiously related somewhere at a key point in the process of getting the tale in print to go before the public. The Tennessee connection, well that was probably instilled just because of the scopes thing back when. These religious types are soft minded and numerous so this story probably has more than its fair share of interested readers. After all, while the USA xtian may say that their adopted Jewish god is a loving god, but I just ran into a thing, my next point, that reads thusly,"Like Me as it is written,"god is a Man of War(hashem Ish milchama)"[Shmos 15:3] O'course this does not mean what these words so read, it means something else{and hulkamaniacs go beserk as the goldberg contingent scream in exstasy!} Its just entertainment, for the softer minds you understand. - 15:43:32 on 1 Jun 99 GMT

easy and legal :MAKE MONEY FAST AND EASY!! How to turn $6 into $50,000! READING THIS COULD CHANGE YOUR LIFE! I found this on a bulletin board and decided to try it. A little while back, I was browsing through newsgroups, just like you are now, and came across an article similar to this that said you could make thousands of dollars within weeks with only an initial investment of $6.00! So I thought, "Yeah right, this must be a scam", but like most of us, I was curious, so I kept reading. Anyway, it said that you send $1.00 to each of the 6 names and address stated in the article. You then place your own name and address in the bottom of the list at #6, and post the article in at least 200 newsgroups. (There are thousands) No catch, that was it. So after thinking it over, and talking to a few people first, I thought about trying it. I figured: "what have I got to lose except 6 stamps and $6.00, right?" Then I invested the measly $6.00. Well GUESS WHAT!!... within 7 days, I started getting money in the mail! I was shocked! I figured it would end soon, but the money just kept coming in. In my first week, I made about $25.00. By the end of the second week I had made a total of over $1,000.00! In the third week I had over $10,000.00 and it's still growing. This is now my fourth week and I have made a total of just over $42,000.00 and it's still coming in rapidly. It's certainly worth $6.00, and 6 stamps, I have spent more than that on the lottery!! Let me tell you how this works and most importantly, why it works....Also, make sure you print a copy of this article NOW, so you can get the information off of it as you need it. I promise you that if you follow the directions exactly, that you will start making more money than you thought possible by doing something so easy! Suggestion: Read this entire message carefully! (print it out or download it.) Follow the simple directions and watch the money come in! It's easy. It's legal. And, your investment is only $6.00 (Plus postage) IMPORTANT: This is not a rip-off; it is not indecent; it is not illegal; and it is virtually no risk - it really works!!!! If all of the following instructions are adhered to, you will receive extraordinary dividends. PLEASE NOTE: Please follow these directions EXACTLY, and $50,000 or more can be yours in 20 to 60 days. This program remains successful because of the honesty and integrity of the participants. Please continue its success by carefully adhering to the instructions. You will now become part of the Mail Order business. In this business your product is not solid and tangible, it's a service. You are in the business of developing Mailing Lists. Many large corporations are happy to pay big bucks for quality lists. However, the money made from the mailing lists is secondary to the income which is made from people like you and me asking to be included in that list. Here are the 4 easy steps to success: STEP 1: Get 6 separate pieces of paper and write the following on each piece of paper "PLEASE PUT ME ON YOUR MAILING LIST." Now get 6 US $1.00 bills and place ONE inside EACH of the 6 pieces of paper so the bill will not be seen through the envelope (to prevent thievery). Next, place one paper in each of the 6 envelopes and seal them. You should now have 6 sealed envelopes, each with a piece of paper stating the above phrase, your name and address, and a $1.00 bill. What you are doing is creating a service. THIS IS ABSOLUTELY LEGAL! You are requesting a legitimate service and you are paying for it! Like most of us I was a little skeptical and a little worried about the legal aspects of it all. So I checked it out with the U.S. Post Office (1-800-725-2161) and they confirmed that it is indeed legal! Mail the 6 envelopes to the following addresses: #1) L. Brandenburg 105 SE 94th Portland Ore. 97216 #2) K. Blondin 320 Ave. B Snohomish, WA 98290 #3) B. Levitch 2504 Huntwick Dr #807 Austin, TX 78741 #4) G. Hart 533 Ramonford Ct. Westerville, OH 43081 #5) A. Chalaganyan 6464 Mary Ellen Ave. Van Nuys, CA 91401 #6) J. J. Baker 5400 Heatherford Ct. Fairfax, VA 22030 STEP 2: Now take the #1 name off the list that you see above, move the other names up (6 becomes 5, 5 becomes 4, etc...) and add YOUR Name as number 6 on the list. STEP 3: Change anything you need to, but try to keep this article as close to original as possible. Now, post your amended article to at least 200 newsgroups. (I think there are close to 24,000 groups) All you need is 200, but remember, the more you post, the more money you make! This is perfectly legal! If you have any doubts, refer to Title 18 Sec. 1302 & 1341 of the Postal lottery laws. Keep a copy of these steps for yourself and, whenever you need money, you can use it again, and again. PLEASE REMEMBER that this program remains successful because of the honesty and integrity of the participants and by their carefully adhering to the directions. Look at it this way. If you are of integrity, the program will continue and the money that so many others have received will come your way. NOTE: You may want to retain every name and address sent to you, either on a computer or hard copy and keep the notes people send you. This VERIFIES that you are truly providing a service. (Also, it might be a good idea to wrap the $1 bill in dark paper to reduce the risk of mail theft.) So, as each post is downloaded and the directions carefully followed, six members will be reimbursed for their participation as a List Developer with one dollar each. Your name will move up the list geometrically so that when your name reaches the #1 position you will be receiving thousands of dollars in CASH!!! What an opportunity for only $6.00 ($1.00 for each of the first six people listed above) Send it now, add your own name to the list and you're in business! ---DIRECTIONS ----- FOR HOW TO POST TO NEWSGROUPS------------ Step 1) You do not need to re-type this entire letter to do your own posting. Simply put your cursor at the beginning of this letter and drag your cursor to the bottom of this document, and select 'copy' from the edit menu. This will copy the entire letter into the computer's memory. Step 2) Open a blank 'notepad' file and place your cursor at the top of the blank page. From the 'edit' menu select 'paste'. This will paste a copy of the letter into notepad so that you can add your name to the list. Step 3) Save your new notepad file as a .txt file. If you want to do your postings in different settings, you'll always have this file to go back to. Step 4) Use Netscape or Internet explorer and try searching for various newsgroups (on-line forums, message boards, chat sites, discussions.) Step 5) Visit these message boards and post this article as a new message by highlighting the text of this letter and selecting paste from the edit menu. Fill in the Subject, this will be the header that everyone sees as they scroll through the list of postings in a particular group, click the post message button. You're done with your first one! Congratulations...THAT'S IT! All you have to do is jump to different newsgroups and post away, after you get the hang of it, it will take about 30 seconds for each newsgroup! **REMEMBER, THE MORE NEWSGROUPS YOU POST IN, THE MORE MONEY YOU WILL MAKE!! BUT YOU HAVE TO POST A MINIMUM OF 200** That's it! You will begin receiving money from around the world within days! You may eventually want to rent a P.O.Box due to the large amount of mail you will receive. If you wish to stay anonymous, you can invent a name to use, as long as the postman will deliver it. **JUST MAKE SURE ALL THE ADDRESSES ARE CORRECT.** Now the WHY part: Out of 200 postings, say I receive only 5 replies (a very low example). So then I made $5.00 with my name at #6 on the letter. Now, each of the 5 persons who just sent me $1.00 make the MINIMUM 200 postings, each with my name at #5 and only 5 persons respond to each of the original 5, that is another $25.00 for me, now those 25 each make 200 MINIMUM posts with my name at #4 and only 5 replies each, I will bring in an additional $125.00! Now, those 125 persons turn around and post the MINIMUM 200 with my name at #3 and only receive 5 replies each, I will make an additional $626.00! OK, now here is the fun part, each of those 625 persons post a MINIMUM 200 letters with my name at #2 and they each only receive 5 replies, that just made me $3,125.00!!! Those 3,125 persons will all deliver this message to 200 newsgroups with my name at #1 and if still 5 persons per 200 newsgroups react I will receive $15,625,00! With an original investment of only $6.00! AMAZING! When your name is no longer on the list, you just take the latest posting in the newsgroups, and send out another $6.00 to names on the list, putting your name at number 6 again. And start posting again. The thing to remember is: do you realize that thousands of people all over the world are joining the internet and reading these articles everyday?, JUST LIKE YOU are now!! So, can you afford $6.00 and see if it really works?? I think so... People have said, "what if the plan is played out and no one sends you the money? So what! What are the chances of that happening when there are tons of new honest users and new honest people who are joining the internet and newsgroups everyday and are willing to give it a try? Estimates are at 20,000 to 50,000 new users, every day, with thousands of those joining the actual internet. Remember, play FAIRLY and HONESTLY and this will really work. - 16:46:16 on 1 Jun 99 GMT

Joette (two enthusiastic thumbs up) :CARL - too bad you didn't see the Spencer Tracey/Frederic March version of Inherit the Wind. An absolute classic. - 19:24:58 on 1 Jun 99 GMT

Carl :JOETTE: I'll look for it, and view it as soon as I find the particular film. Who is the huckster bringing his tales of instant wealth and riches? - 20:45:38 on 1 Jun 99 GMT

Doug :carl; and you can get rich just start a scam like his and the suckers, oops I meant clients with come out of the woodwork looking to throw away there money. - 21:09:51 on 1 Jun 99 GMT

Ricky :It seems that the first thing a non-believer will tel you is that "if God is so living, why does He allow all the killings and terible things to go on in peoples lives." What I find is , God is a loving God. He is also a God of rafe when it comes to sin. God hates sin. Since man sined against God, sin has brought death and destruction on man. Kinda, get what you asked for. But God still loved the world that He gave His son, Jesus to die so that we might be forgiven. I'm not living a Christian life because I'm scared of what God might do to me, I live that life because I love God and what He has done for me. - 2:16:49 on 2 Jun 99 GMT

Marlene :HEY! I'm back too! Maybe all Grant's and my whining to servers did some good! This is great! HI RICKY! - 4:09:59 on 2 Jun 99 GMT

Marlene :RICKY- No, I won't argue with you (I leave that for the RTL types). Where I would like our discussions to go is some place where you really can understand how and why I do not think there is a god but at the same time remain friends. Unlike some of the xtians who come to this discussion, you at least seem to have some opinions of your own and don't act like you've been programed with the Living Bible and no longer have any ability to think for yourself. There was another poster like yourself here about five years ago who came here like you. His name was James. He hasn't actually changed his position entirely but he has changed his description of what he thinks from "faith" to "hope". He is at a place now that I can understand. Maybe sooner or later we can understand each other too. - 4:32:26 on 2 Jun 99 GMT

Marlene :DR. DENNIS- Hummm...evil creator eh? Would it not make more sense to just say that we humans don't like what we see as the destructive side of nature. Humans seem to see things as either "good" or "bad". That's our perspective. In reality, as Janice would say, "it's all the same damn thing". - 4:36:32 on 2 Jun 99 GMT

Marlene :JOETTE, PETER, CARL ANYONE??? Have you heard anything about the ancient sphere that has now been found out to be a clock. It was tested by computer or something and it has been discovered that in ancient times that the belief was that the earth was round. I heard something about it on the radio briefly before I went to work today. Has anyone got any more info on it? - 4:40:50 on 2 Jun 99 GMT

Marlene :TO THE PYRAMID POSTER- Hey that kind of scam is illegal in our parts of the world. Kill someone and you get a $500 fine but start that shit and it's life! - 4:42:47 on 2 Jun 99 GMT

Marlene..beware of US vacation packages :DOUG- Or we Canucks/suckers could visit the US for a weekend and throw half our money away,lol! - 4:45:21 on 2 Jun 99 GMT

Steven :MARLENE <<>> another good book i have found "Gates of Fire" by Steven Pressfield. Excellent book of acient times in Greece. "The Battle of Thermopylae" is what the book is centered around, it is a great read and one I think you would find enjoyable. RICKY <<>> Once you have children you will realize that NO ONE would give their son for anyone. If god is all powerfull then why would he need to sacrafice anything for his wishes to come true? - 12:48:59 on 2 Jun 99 GMT

doug :marlene; no but I'd be interested to know from what part of the world was it found.Do you have the source for this globe? - 13:42:53 on 2 Jun 99 GMT

Marlene :STEVEN- Thanks! Another on my book list. - 14:27:07 on 2 Jun 99 GMT

Marlene :DOUG- That's what I'm trying to find out. I've checked CNN today but I see nothing. There's got to be some info on it somewhere. - 14:41:35 on 2 Jun 99 GMT

Carl :RICKY,RICKY,RICKY; of your "what I find, god is loving" and that part, "..what he has done for me." this looks like you merely exercising the free expression of your opinion, or just you spittin'into the wind. Of your words,"..what he has done for me." were you doing nothing for yourself, not thinking not acknowledging any of your body's sensory input, and this godthing gave you something that until then you had no prior knowledge or awareness of? All you were at that very moment when the godthing did that whatever for you, all you are, was inert unthinking unseeing dumb to all about you save only that, here I guess, of breathing, is this what you mean for us here to accept that you were when you got that whatever? Do you know or can you say that it waved its godly hand or blinked its godly eyes or speak to your mind bypassing any brain activity and thought {I won't write that you heard voices because that is what the insane assert of themselves}, so how did you know that anything has done anything for you? This brings me to your first assertion of,"what I find,etc," where did you know that the what and where of what you are ended and the godthing was responsible for the whatever? This sounds like you must be a minor-godthing o'some sort yourself in order to recognise and acknowledge something as fantastic as that godthing. Kinda like if you were on a desert isle and found a watch you'd know another human made it. Or too, this could be only your wishful thinking or your misguided misunderstood sense of hope, "a word" that means to encapsulate "a quality"[also words] innate to the genes and enzyme's activity of a regular living human organism. - 15:27:15 on 2 Jun 99 GMT

Carl, May I ask, "What have you done for God? - 16:54:34 on 2 Jun 99 GMT

Done? it would not be any less than that done for any child in my 'care'. - 17:09:22 on 2 Jun 99 GMT

Marlene ..if I'm going to something it has to be for something :Who asked Carl what he has done for god? Let me answer that question. Would you do something for Tinkerbell? And if so, just what could you possibly do for a non-entity? - 18:32:40 on 2 Jun 99 GMT

like all childcare, the god needs care or it too will pass away from neglect or via uncare, and like the gods of yore simply passed away so will anything else so fickle - 22:02:54 on 2 Jun 99 GMT

Marlene :RICKY- Where are you? Steven has a point, have you any children? Even if you don't, if god was real and decided to appear to you and ask that you sacrifice a child to him, would you? And don't think the god of the bible wouldn't let you go through with it as he did with Abraham, remember he wiped out millions of children himself, he set a she bear on a bunch of little kids who teased Elisha because he was bald so he'd be prepared to loose another kid for even lesser reasons. - 1:23:11 on 3 Jun 99 GMT

Ricky :If God did ask me to do such an act, I would know, or believe He would have a purpose in mind. I would do as He said and hope by faith that my actions would bring glory to Him and satisfaction to me. I would have to obey God to my best ability. - 3:52:26 on 3 Jun 99 GMT

HOW TO TURN $6 INTO $6,000!!!!!! READING THIS COULD CHANGE YOUR LIFE! I found this on a bulletin board and decided to try it. A little while back, I was browsing through newsgroups, just like you are now, and came across an article similar to this that said you could make thousands of dollars within weeks with only an initial investment of $6.00! So I thought, Yeah right, this must be a scam, but like most of us, I was curious, so I kept reading. Anyway, it said that you send $1.00 to each of the 6 names and address stated in the article. You then place your own name and address in the bottom of the list at #6, and post the article in at least 200 newsgroups. (There are thousands) No catch, that was it. So after thinking it over, and talking to a few people first, I thought about trying it. I figured: what have I got to lose except 6 stamps and $6.00, right? Then I invested the measly $6.00. Well GUESS WHAT!!... within 7 days, I started getting money in the mail! I was shocked! I figured it would end soon, but the money just kept coming in. In my first week, I made about $25.00. By the end of the second week I had made a total of over $1,000.00! In the third week I had over $10,000.00 and it's still growing. This is now my fourth week and I have made a total of just over $42,000.00 and it's still coming in rapidly. It's certainly worth $6.00, and 6 stamps, I have spent more than that on the lottery!! Let me tell you how this works and most importantly, why it works....Also, make sure you print a copy of this article NOW, so you can get the information off of it as you need it. I promise you that if you follow the directions exactly, that you will start making more money than you thought possible by doing something so easy! Suggestion: Read this entire message carefully! (print it out or download it.) Follow the simple directions and watch the money come in! It's easy. It's legal. And, your investment is only $6.00 (Plus postage) IMPORTANT: This is not a rip-off; it is not indecent; it is not illegal; and it is virtually no risk - it really works!!!! If all of the following instructions are adhered to, you will receive extraordinary dividends. PLEASE NOTE: Please follow these directions EXACTLY, and $50,000 or more can be yours in 20 to 60 days and it will be legal! This program remains successful because of the honesty and integrity of the participants. Please continue its success by carefully adhering to the instructions. You will now become part of the Mail Order business. In this business your product is not solid and tangible, it's a service. You are in the business of developing Mailing Lists. Many large corporations are happy to pay big bucks for quality lists. However, the money made from the mailing lists is secondary to the income which is made from people like you and me asking to be included in that list. Here are the 4 easy steps to success: STEP 1: Get 6 separate pieces of paper and write the following on each piece of paper;PLEASE PUT ME ON YOUR MAILING LIST. Now get 6 US $1.00 bills and place ONE inside EACH of the 6 pieces of paper so the bill will not be seen through the envelope (to prevent thievery). Next, place one paper in each of the 6 envelopes and seal them. You should now have 6 sealed envelopes, each with a piece of paper stating the above phrase, your name and address, and a $1.00 bill. What you are doing is creating a service. If you follow the directions Correctly, IT'S ABSOLUTELY LEGAL! You are requesting a legitimate service and you are paying for it! Like most of us I was a little skeptical and a little worried about the legal aspects of it all. so I checked it out with the U.S. Post Office (1-800-725-2161) and they confirmed that it is indeed legal! Mail the 6 envelopes to the following addresses: #1) Paul Bae, 9131 Gracious End Ct. Suite 301 Columbia MD 21046 #2) Hoan Tran, 1809 Lakebend Dr. Sugar Land, TX 77478 #3) Jim Lenning, 1223 Runciman Cr. N,Regina,SK, Can., S4X 2Z3 #4) Aaron Salley, 2014 N. Cherry St. Winston-Salem,N.C. 27105 #5) Casey Spalding, 21614 Liberty St. apt.218A Lexington Park MD 20653 #6) Ali Ilhan, Badem 16 Villa: G-5/3 Bahcesehir, Istanbul, TURKEY Step 2: Now take the #1 name off the list that you see above, move the other names up (6 becomes 5, 5 becomes 4, etc...) and add YOUR Name as number 6 on the list. STEP 3: Change anything you need to, but try to keep this article as close to original as possible. Now, post your amended article to at least 200 newsgroups. (I think there are close to 24,000 groups) All you need is 200, but remember, the more you post,the more money you make! This is perfectly legal! If you have any doubts, refer to Title 18 Sec. 1302 & 1341 of the Postal lottery laws. Keep a copy of these steps for yourself and, whenever you need money, you can use it again, and again. PLEASE REMEMBER that this program remains successful because of the honesty and integrity of the participants and by their carefully adhering to the directions. Look at it this way. If you are of integrity, the program will continue and the money that so many others have received will come your way. NOTE: You may want to retain every name and address sent to you, either on a computer or hard copy and keep the notes people send you. This VERIFIES that you are truly providing a service. (Also, it might be a good idea to wrap the $1 bill in dark paper to reduce the risk of mail theft.) So, as each post is downloaded and the directions carefully followed, six members will be reimbursed for their participation as a List Developer with one dollar each. Your name will move up the list geometrically so that when your name reaches the #1 position you will be receiving thousands of dollars in CASH!!! What an opportunity for only $6.00 ($1.00 for each of the first six people listed above) Send it now, add your own name to the list and you're in business! ---DIRECTIONS ----- FOR HOW TO POST TO NEWSGROUPS------------ Step 1) You do not need to re-type this entire letter to do your own posting. Simply put your cursor at the beginning of this letter and drag your cursor to the bottom of this document, and select 'copy' from the edit menu. This will copy the entire letter into the computer's memory. Step 2) Open a blank 'notepad' file and place your cursor at the top of the blank page. From the 'edit' menu select 'paste'. This will paste a copy of the letter into notepad so that you can add your name to the list. Step 3) Save your new notepad file as a .txt file. If you want to do your postings in different settings, you'll always have this file to go back to. Step 4) Use Netscape or Internet explorer and try searching for various newsgroups (on-line forums, message boards, chat sites, discussions.) Step 5) Visit these message boards and post this article as a new message by highlighting the text of this letter and selecting paste from the edit menu. Fill in the Subject, this will be the header that everyone sees as they scroll through the list of postings in a particular group, click the post message button. You're done with your first one! Congratulations...THAT'S IT! All you have to do is jump to different newsgroups and post away, after you get the hang of it, it will take about 30 seconds for each newsgroup! **REMEMBER, THE MORE NEWSGROUPS YOU POST IN, THE MORE MONEY YOU WILL MAKE!! BUT YOU HAVE TO POST A MINIMUM OF 200** That's it! You will begin receiving money from around the world within days! You may eventually want to rent a P.O.Box due to the large amount of mail you will receive. If you wish to stay anonymous, you can invent a name to use, as long as the postman will deliver it. **JUST MAKE SURE ALL THE ADDRESSES ARE CORRECT.** Now the WHY part: Out of 200 postings, say I receive only 5 replies (a very low example). So then I made $5.00 with my name at #6 on the letter. Now, each of the 5 persons who just sent me $1.00 make the MINIMUM 200 postings, each with my name at #5 and only 5 persons respond to each of the original 5, that is another $25.00 for me, now those 25 each make 200 MINIMUM posts with my name at #4 and only 5 replies each, I will bring in an additional $125.00! Now, those 125 persons turn around and post the MINIMUM 200 with my name at #3 and only receive 5 replies each, I will make an additional $626.00! OK, now here is the fun part, each of those 625 persons post a MINIMUM 200 letters with my name at #2 and they each only receive 5 replies, that just made me $3,125.00!!! Those 3,125 persons will all deliver this message to 200 newsgroups with my name at #1 and if still 5 persons per 200 newsgroups react I will receive $15,625,00! With an original investment of only $6.00! AMAZING! When your name is no longer on the list, you just take the latest posting in the newsgroups, and send out another $6.00 to names on the list, putting your name at number 6 again. And start posting again. The thing to remember is: do you realize that thousands of people all over the world are joining the internet and reading these articles everyday?, JUST LIKE YOU are now!! So, can you afford $6.00 and see if it really works?? I think so... People have said, "e;what if the plan is played out and no one sends you the money? So what! What are the chances of that happening when there are tons of new honest users and new honest people who are joining the internet and newsgroups everyday and are willing to give it a try? Estimates are at 20,000 to 50,000 new users, every day, with thousands of those joining the actual internet. Remember: do it FAIRLY and HONESTLY and this will really work for anyone who's following the directions exactly as listed. WARNING!:Being GREEDY will bring negative result! - 6:42:03 on 3 Jun 99 GMT

Marlene :I suppose Grant will have to get rid of Mr. Advertisement too! - 12:58:18 on 3 Jun 99 GMT

Marlene :RICKY- You know what...I don't think you would. I can say right now that I love my kids more than anything (like you love your god) and I could say that I would do anything for my kids but...when push comes to shove, would I go to limits of killing someone...I don't think so. I don't think you would either. Really search within yourself and see if I'm not right. - 13:02:18 on 3 Jun 99 GMT

Carl :JOKE: What does a divorce in Alabama, a tornado in Kansas and a hurricane in Florida have in common? Somebody's fixen to lose them a trailerhouse. - 14:43:05 on 3 Jun 99 GMT

Carl :OPEN: At readin'the book,"Gospel Fictions"it appears we few nonreligious types, the myth and fable thing we see of holy scripture stuff can be understood as manmade. Now at seeing the book,"Inventing the Western Civilization", and with a quick glimpse it appears that K.MARX was on target when he said that religion is the opiate of the masses. Upon the completion I wonder what I may inscribe of such notions? I guess that having come from a family group that is historically of uncivilised individuals, not religious, well, what can I say of those who accept myth and fable? I will have to see. - 15:12:03 on 3 Jun 99 GMT

Carl :OPEN01: Just lissenin'to some gals here discuss the healing of distorted bodys and such and how home remedys and'faith' in god work together. Their conversation brought to mind the question I've been asking RICKY, when and how does one know when the godthing becomes responsible and one's own efforts are at an end? If its when one can't really account for the results then that looks like one who simply does not know. Is that really all these folks- like the gals here and RICKY wherever he's at is, is that all they mean to say by using the word g-o-d, that they don't know? Have these religious folks made ignorance of facts a god, and that is all it is? - 15:57:46 on 3 Jun 99 GMT

doug :carl; You know that in some states the HMO's will allow faith healing as an optional medical treatment.Quackery has made considerable inroads into the medical field now that the accountants are running the show.The next step is to allow MD's to prescribe quackery and the patient is left scrambling to find real medicine at his/her own expense. How much cost does a chant have; they do have a rate.It doesn't matter if you believe only if the MD says it is the best treatment.We can't let this happen. - 17:11:37 on 3 Jun 99 GMT

Carl :DOUG: Could it be, the quack thing, the second coming o'the dark ages? There seems to be enough of the ignorant "and" those who prefer ignorance that the observation Santayana made is simply true. He once said, "religion to the commoner is held true, by the wise as foolish and by leaders as useful." Of the HMO and MD thing perhaps Lenin had it right when he opined that capitalism spells out and serves up its own demise. Here he must have been thinking of it as an upgrade of the the simpler notion of it- money, being only the medium of exchange, of course this calls for the "good faith" by all partys concerned. How long will the quack thing last? - 17:30:17 on 3 Jun 99 GMT

doug :carl; well mainstream society has been flirting with the right wing for 20 years now.It could be that the after taste is bitter, so maybe they won't eat there anymore.They all like the cost savings; but not in my backyard we're different attitude.I had a history teacher who used to say that Marx was Marx's worst enemy; meaninng if he kept his mouth shut it all would come to pass that capitalism would self distruct from it's own greed and corruption.His idea seems to have more meaning as I grow older and see more.Nationalized heath care is a must; the HMO's have failed us. - 20:38:10 on 3 Jun 99 GMT

Carl :DOUG: That capitalism point of view versus KM's view that emphasized the individual, has always struck me as the basis for religious needs. Someone waaaay back when, really pulled the wool over someone's eyes when they convinced the other individual that some bauble, some indicator was an ok substitute for the work that one does{work perhaps, is change of form of motion regarded in its quantitative aspects}. Do you mean to say that in place of the subservience of capitalism that the evolving process will lead the human organism to that of being wards of the state? As such a ward who would be left to be called civilised or learned, or free? - 21:35:12 on 3 Jun 99 GMT

doug :carl; no he meant to say only that capitalism would drown in it's own greed and corruption and something better would evolve.We talked about european socialism within a democratic framework as the most just and probable economic system.In scandinavian countries they still have the rich but have gone along way toward raising the minimum standards of living to a civilised level.One thing that americans never learnded to do is to take care of their own as in europe.The rich can't expect to have any sympathy and support from over half the US population now that they are have nots.It's a powder keg waiting to explode. - 22:52:19 on 3 Jun 99 GMT

Joette :Doug - be careful what you wish for, you just might get it. As a recipient of nationalized health care I can tell you that it tends to fail more often than succeed. Nobody gives a shit anymore. - 13:49:54 on 4 Jun 99 GMT

Carl :DOUG: of your fifth sentence(22:52:19) and the first sentence o'my post[21:35:12] are examples very similar to things I've read in guys as Lenin and and don't read in writings of those as A.Smith. The simple method I use as an image of what KM and AS said is the accounting "T account". KM put the'worker' atop measuring the debits and credits in relation to the worker. AS put'capital' atop measuring the same in relation to capital. Lenin seemed to theorize that of 'capitalism' there is evil to society of which KM refers to as class struggle. AS mentions very little of society in terms of such evil, there is for AS only capital growth the only evil is its non-growth. Here is the crux of my point, religion seeks to "fill-in" the anguish of the human whose very handiwork is taken- there are numerous o'other words for this taken action, and religion seeks to "fill-in" for those thoughtless uncaring purviewers of 'capitalism'. Now, to this consider the coalescing thoughts of ideas from "The Third Chimpanzee" wherein is stated that the bones and teeth of the precivilised human were held to be so routinely healthy that they bored the researchers. It wasn't until the increased use of the high protien content of the cereals that those structures finally showed signs of ill health. The ideas in the book,"Inventing Western Civilisation" had some interesting chapters that impressed me as looking like religious doorways[see Santayana quote]. The powder keg, unfortunately is only that religion and leader types must have death and destruction for which they can provide an answer. Better minds ought to prevail. - 15:03:17 on 4 Jun 99 GMT

Marlene :DOUG- I agree with Joette. It's not the end all of health care and be prepared to be taxed like we are too. Right now if one wants an MRI done, there is a year waiting list. - 18:14:58 on 4 Jun 99 GMT

Ricky :I guess you have to fill in the blanks with reasonable assumptions that carry weight for your beliefs. I havn't read the book, but sounds interesting. - 22:05:46 on 4 Jun 99 GMT

Ricky :This page has slowed down from what it was a week ago. What happened to the Dr. I guess Peter and Papa Sam has gone on vacation. Where has the action gone? - 1:11:21 on 5 Jun 99 GMT

Ricky :This page has slowed down from what it was a week ago. What happened to the Dr. I guess Peter and Papa Sam has gone on vacation. Where has the action gone? - 1:11:24 on 5 Jun 99 GMT

doug :Marlene+Joette; I see where your coming from but the private sector is righting off non-important people by giving them pills instead of MRI'S or like my experience the other day. My doctor had to regive me shots for mumps ,measles,rubella,etc because the records had been lost. I had most of the diseases when I was A CHILD.Ok, it was the simplest thing to do(going back to college at 43).So I told my MD(HMO) that I had terrible lower GI problems for the last week and thought it food poisoning before the shots.He didn't even write it down because the accountants said this appointment was for shots only.It makes me want to scream that what if I had a reaction to one of the shots and the lower GI thing did me in.I have to say that we are ther already, no body gives a sh-t about the heath of the patients anymore.As far as cost we pay about $500 a month for family HMO.So if it puts the profits off I don't care they have suckered us long enough.As someone in the USA ,where the hell is the peace dividend that the ending of the cold war was suppose to bring.All it did was let the hogs go on a feeding frenzy, because they didn't have to look good against the Russians(USSR). - 2:30:21 on 5 Jun 99 GMT

Like its allways been, the rich get richer and the poor get poorer! - 2:49:22 on 5 Jun 99 GMT

Marlene :DOUG- You may be right that many doctors don't give a shit. So many are in it for the money and not the profession but then again so are some teachers and other professionals that at one time didn't make such hefty wages but now live quite well. In this part of the country one can always recognize the place the doctor lives in. One doctor told my partner that after his operation he could go on a three week vacation to Banff. - 3:46:58 on 5 Jun 99 GMT

Marlene :RICKY- What did you mean by "fill in the blanks with reasonable assumptions"? BTW, I think Dr. Dennis was a fomer poster, posting under that silly name. - 3:51:10 on 5 Jun 99 GMT

Grant :Of course we are free to "fill in the blanks", but that is the point at which our beliefs become arbitrary and baseless. We will, in my opinion, tend to fill in the blanks with that which we desire or at least find palatable. I'd go so far as to say we sometimes intentionally leave the blanks big to accommodate that which we desire. If we had something reasonable and rational to fill them in with they wouldn't be blanks. - 16:56:24 on 5 Jun 99 GMT

Marlene :GRANT- Maybe that's the problem. Humanity will fill in the blanks with anything as long as the blanks are filled in. When we can't, we create something, anything... I remember a test I had in Grade Four. It was a geography test and the question was "what disease do mosquitoes spread in tropical countries?". I knew it sounded like hilarious (kind of) so just so I didn't leave a "blank", I wrote "hilaria". When I got the test back, the teacher wrote beside the big "X", "funny, but not worth a mark". - 2:47:48 on 6 Jun 99 GMT

Grant :MARLENE-- That's really funny. Too bad though that the things we "fill in the blanks" with aren't necessarily as close as you were. :-) --- This place is sure dead on weekends. Everyone must have better things to do than I do. - 16:18:59 on 6 Jun 99 GMT

Ricky :I was just meaning that we don't know every thing there is to know, leaving some things to wonder about. That gives us the oportunity to kinda fill in the blanks with logical explinations. - 22:13:51 on 6 Jun 99 GMT

Grant :RICKY-- Yes, my point exactly. Some people believe such "logical" explanations are always suspect and can be considered as provisional at best, and that human nature (emotions and desires) and societal factors always color such explanations. Do you see how this could be so? - 23:22:12 on 6 Jun 99 GMT

Ricky :Certainly, but the fact is that people that some matters to the extreme both ways. - 23:53:52 on 6 Jun 99 GMT

Grant :RICKY-- Your idea of extreme would probably seem pretty subjective to me. In my view, the point where a leap of faith is taken is the point where beliefs become arbitrary. I can't see how it could be otherwise. - 3:03:16 on 7 Jun 99 GMT

Steven :ANY <<>> GO STARS!!!!!! - 14:52:32 on 7 Jun 99 GMT

Carl :GRANT: at the moment I'm readin'stuff that makes me keen to the subjective notion, and what RICKY meekly mews for, is the notion of chaos. In his subjectiveness it is only from chaos- as this word has meaning to him, that a godthing can be meaningful. RICKY must mew for an open book, a clean slate, upon which he can then paint an evil and a good the latter being o'course his godthing and both the mere products of his subjective whim and fancy. - 15:27:18 on 7 Jun 99 GMT

Carl :OPEN: So RICKY understands extremes, would he consider the bursts of action by the religious types to change the USA constitution to in effect "legalise" a religion? I have noted that in certain areas of the USA some communities do things like conducting prayer at public functions, and do so in unison, jointly, as if its the newage version of a lynchin'mentality. I read how some who voice their opinion say things of those who object that can easily be characterised by the,"yea, there is the law, but this is my town." Is this living by the rule of law, or is it just some people who will rule by mob law? Legalise religion, in the USA that would probably be the xian point o'view. Well, if it comes to just that xian point o'view, thinking will certainly become an extremist behavior and an unimportant general human activity. - 15:15:45 on 8 Jun 99 GMT

doug :Carl; And the lights would start going out all over the world.All non-xians would be purged(murdered)and those that did convert would always be suspect.Serbia and chechnya are good examples of religion unbridaled.You would think that they (xians) wouldn't want us in their churches against our will.Just think of all the destruction we could do when they are all in one place and vulnerable.I would go for thermite bombs myself. - 18:58:02 on 8 Jun 99 GMT

Ricky :Carl, What I have observed is that our school systems are failing. Teens are turning to violence. When I was going to school, we opened the class each day with a scripture reading and a prayer. If someone did not want to participate, that was all well and good. Never, was there shootings, riotes, or other disorder by student bodies. Then the government came along and said, "no more prayer". Religion was banded completely. Then they removed discipline right along with it. Kids then come along, no morals, no "Christian charactor", no rules that "had" to be keep, and now they wonder what has happened to kids in school. Very simple. They done away with the "God thing" took away discipline, both in school and in the homes as well. I feel if someone wants to pray in school, let them. Give teachers back some authority by putting the board of education on the seat of relutance and we would see a change for the good. - 19:59:12 on 8 Jun 99 GMT

Doug :Ricky; how come they prayed to jesus in schools in nazi germany and still did all that horrible stuff.I can tell you that forced prayers started all sorts of religious bigotry when I was in grade school.It was mainline protestant prayer, no catholic or fundy heresy. That was the law of the land then in Massachusetts.So Ricky you would be put in jail if you disrupted class with your heresy.Besides the catholics would have beaten the crap out of you for being an agent of satan. - 2:14:52 on 9 Jun 99 GMT

Marlene :RICKY- There is absolutely no evidence that points to the lack of school prayer being the problem. I believe there are many countries that do not have prayer in the schools yet the young people there are less violent. The problem, to a degree has something to do with religion though. Many people, instead of take some action and try to fix a problem leave it "in the hands of god". - 3:58:21 on 9 Jun 99 GMT

Steven :MARLENE <<>> and when they leave it in the hands of gods, they have their sins forgiven so they can forget about any wrong that they have done. - 12:37:22 on 9 Jun 99 GMT

Steven :RICKY <<>> there hasnt been prayer in school in Texas in some time, and we havnt had any shootings. The interesting thing is that schools are FAR less tolerant today of kids doing anything wrong. There are no fights in the school because in Texas if a kid is caught fighting on school grouds, they are expelled. When I was in school there were fights every day. It appears that you are using another christian tactic. That is , to take any situation, and if something bad happens, push your agenda when everyone is weak. That is like saying: "See, I told you, if we had prayer in school then none of this would have happend", which is a load of shit and you know it. - 12:41:39 on 9 Jun 99 GMT

Carl :RICKY: so you observe that "teens turn to violence"? Some of them may, but some of this problem clearly connects to the contemporary social efforts of trying to make everyone equal and alike. While I inscribe that some may appear to fall into your description, of your view there are two repsonses; 1-those teens are a small number, 2-its a statement of overgeneralisation. Of number 2 you seek to invoke an argument of the impossible an equally impossible answer, a godthing, what is this? Of the first, it is an opine o'mine, that as STEVEN points out there used to be daily fights in school. Well, back in the day[as the ballplayers say it of things] those fights were how the kids, me and STEVEN, used to control those other kids who lacked certain kinds of understanding about themselves. During this time I as kid observed that some people can do things and others cannot do that same thing. When did this hit me, watching Bob Hayes run. I first saw him run on a tv sports program. Later I saw him run away down a guy on the Green Bay Packers who was a fast runner, but Hayes made him seem so ordinary. This same observation came into play in other areas of thought like who could do math and understand electricity and words and the logic of writing. Again, I could see that not all could do these things not even remotely, in or at equal levels of performance. Then, it seemed that somebody- probably in gov't, took it upon themselves to render everyone equal and alike. IMHO that has led to things like those 'kid shooters', they don't have anyone kickin'their butt to let them know that they got their limitations. Thats probably all it is, these kids the shooters are still very unequal to the challenge and have no response to it and probably hate themselves, why? Cuz no person tells them in ways that any organism knows what it can do and what it can't do. That is the nature of the beast, gods and prayers and blessin'and heavens, what in the fuck are these and what they gonna do for any here and now except delude them. - 15:53:26 on 9 Jun 99 GMT

Joette (the URL is for fun, and has nothing to do with this message) :RICKY - I found your assertion that violence in society is a result of taking prayer out of schools to be more than a little bit amusing. Are you, as a believer, in a position to demand that those that don't have the same faith be force fed your dogma? How do you know that what you believe is better than say, what a Hindu believes? Don't you think it would be a rather boring world if everyone had the same ideas and beliefs? - 16:37:48 on 9 Jun 99 GMT

Joette :STEVEN - sorry, but those of us in this neck of the woods are doing the Sabre dance these days. Guess you didn't like last night's outcome. - 16:39:00 on 9 Jun 99 GMT

Carl :HUMOR: [right wall] for toilet tennis look left. [left wall] for toilet tennis tennis look right. - 17:05:35 on 9 Jun 99 GMT

Carl :HUMOR01: woman's bathroom insight, make love not war - hell do both, get married. - 17:24:18 on 9 Jun 99 GMT

Steven :JOETTE <<>> I do not believe you will be dancing long. Colorado and St Louis both one the first game of the series. The Stars came out and blasted them for 3 periods, grabbed the lead, then sat on there heals thinking they could protect it, like the normally do. Unfortunatly, the let the Sabres back in the game, and the Stars still should have won the game. I figure the series will go 6 games. Dallas will give one away, like they did last night, and Hasek (sp) will steal one. Other than that, IMHO, the Sabres dont have a chance. Dallas is older, more skilled, and deeper on the bench. Also, the margin between Belfore and Hasek is not that large. I think you will see a Dallas team that responds quite well in the next game. This may seem kind of homerish, but oh well. I have several friends that live in Canada that hate Buffalo. The say the city is a garbage dump filled with trashy people. This may be a stereotype, but I have been trying to debate hockey on the Sabre web site, and EVERY single person that I have spoken with are complete assholes. They do not want to talk about stats, or hockey, they wish to make themselves feel more secure by ridiculing Dallas/Texas, the culture etc. I told them that they fit their particular stereotype to the tee. Please dont give me this, *snif*, "but, but, hockey should not be played where it doesnt snow" *snif*. I say whatever, no player on the Stars organization is from Texas, and if they were, so frigging what. I burns me a bit. America invented Baseball, but you dont hear people whine that Canadians play the damn sport, or that the Blue Jays won the world series. It baffles me. I personally cant wait for Dallas to destroy the Sabres, which they will, mark my words. I sincerly hope that Hatcher floats across the ice and plants wooly 6 ft under the ice. All I saw from Buffalo was a desperate team willing to cheat and cheap shot their way through the game. For a second, I thought I saw Brian Marchment on their second line. Buffalo is going to find out real quick that they are from the Eastern conference, and they just cant compete with the Stars. It was painfully obvious who the best team was last night, and it wasnt the Sabres. - 19:03:44 on 9 Jun 99 GMT

sheesh, sorry for the typos, like one=won, grrr - 19:05:22 on 9 Jun 99 GMT

doug :The Bruins will be back next year to sweep the cup.No upstart teams will make the semi's next season. - 19:08:53 on 9 Jun 99 GMT

Marlene :WELL! Doesn't this piss a person off! Sven Robinson...naaa! I'll link you to a site that better explains this. I'm really pissed with the NDP (never did like them anyway) for demoting him. - 20:09:34 on 9 Jun 99 GMT

doug :Marlene; You Canadians should know about the US constitution having no references to god.I know you get blasted with US "culture"(yuk) so it's coming out of your ears.You didn't think they were going go without a fight.At least make them put in all beliefs and non-beliefs, so as to not give the xians an excuse to discriminate. - 22:57:02 on 9 Jun 99 GMT

Marlene :DOUG- I think the issue has been sweep under the carpet. A consitution without mentioning god, ludicrous! Only in Canada, you say? Shee-it! - 0:32:04 on 10 Jun 99 GMT

Carl, If I say I'm a German, that don't make me a German. Some people clame to be Christians, even use the name, but lack in the works of a christian. The Bible says that Satan is one of many disguises. That is how he uses some to make others stumble. - 3:34:50 on 10 Jun 99 GMT

Ricky :I didn't put my name to the last post but I figured you knew it was me. - 4:08:49 on 10 Jun 99 GMT

Steven :RICKY <<>> Satan is just another diety in your mythology. Tell me, if God is good, and he is omnipotent, and he is knows everything that is and everything that will be, wouldnt god also be evil because he created Satan? - 12:47:51 on 10 Jun 99 GMT

Carl :RICKY: Have you ever taken some time to think about the image of the expression,"wag-the-dog"? What does wag refer to, surely to its tail. So the tail wags the dog is what one means to say with that phrase, do you accept that? Now, lets take that image as a notion and affix it the human experience that is to include a historical perspective of their experience. That experience o'course is wide, so wide in fact that to clearly understand or grasp it would exceed the capabilities of the regular folks, like you and me. So in order to come to an understanding- in an objective way, that any and all can have of that great and wider experience the term 'knowledge' is used. This notion has taken on various paradigms that were and are still, relevant to a group of people. These groups o'course include such as those folk who first heard the myths and superstitions of your bible. They were ancient maybe even early homo-sapien types that still knew remembered well the experience of falling thru tree branches. Eventually those ancient fears took on new meaning when the large animals they hunted, well they killed them off- into extinction. Well to shorten this bit, the bible is only their ancient fears as recorded and carried over into today by a group of people. What do these people want, well if one considers what pope leo X said as an indicator of what that group wants he was recorded as saying,"what riches has not that fable of jesus not brought us." While that is a target for that particular group of humans, what you propose is more in line with the wag image. You mean to have others yield what is knowledge- as it currently stands which we accept as knowing, for things thought and said by goat and sheep herders. According to the bible which as a record of what they knew and understood of their human experience, the earth was the center of the universe and it was made for humans by a godthing. If these old accounts are history like and lets call these accounts of those ancient humans the tail, then what you mean to say, is that the tail "must wag the dog". - 15:00:17 on 10 Jun 99 GMT

doug :ricky; all theology aside; how do you think you would be different in a universe without gods(satan too).Can you answer that question honestly. - 15:16:57 on 10 Jun 99 GMT

Joette :STEVEN - hey, settle down! Nobody here said anything about hockey not being played where it doesn't snow! Heck, it rarely snows where I live anymore! And about the baseball thing, it was insufferable the way the reporting was done during the glory days of the Jays. Fucking idiots talked about how the players had to get their passports updated. Since when do Americans use passports to get into Canada. It was ridiculous. And the colour guard in Atlanta flying the Canadian flag upside down because they didn't know any better. Sheesh. It was great fun. BTW, they only thing I know about hockey, and I know this well, is that Belfour CHOKES in playoff situations, so be prepared. Just look at his record with the Blackhawks when they made it to the finals. - 15:30:02 on 10 Jun 99 GMT

Joette :MARLENE - I am gobsmacked at how the NDP have treated Sven Robinson. This guy has brought so many serious social issues to the forefront, and I consider him a hero of sorts. I am especially concerned about this in that I had something to do with this petition, if you will recall my stories of a couple of years ago where I was getting a lot of doors slammed in my face because I was presenting the desire to have the word god taken out of our constitution. I used the internet to further my cause, and it was those in B.C. that were willing to help. I am sick thinking how a simple private member's bill can destroy a man's career. Fucking narrow minded simps! - 15:37:23 on 10 Jun 99 GMT

Steven :JOETTE <<>> DOH! I hope he wins to rid himself of that title. Not upset, i was a little peaved when I posted the message because I just came off of the Sabre web site, lol. I am a huge hockey fan now, it is a very addictive sport. IMHO baseball if fun for me to watch live, play, and watch on TV. The majority of people I know do not feel that way. Most people like to watch it live, or play but do not like to watch it on TV. I guess when I put the game on the a.m. radio on a saturday afternoon while cleaning or working on something, it reminds me of being a kid. My father listened to every game on the radio, I guess I picked it up. I will put the game on on the TV, mute it, then tune my reciever into the radio announcers. - 17:51:26 on 10 Jun 99 GMT

Carl :RICKY01: or too, it could be as simple as you just saying that there is a god. And, just like you wave a shameful finger of denial at those who "just" say they are xtian, but ain't xtian at all, neither is there a godthing. Is that also true of you and you just saying that there is a god, it just ain't so? - 19:10:56 on 10 Jun 99 GMT

Dave :To the person who said that school violence is the result of taking prayer out of schools: Wisconsin took official prayers out of our schools in 1890. Yes, that's EIGHTEEN ninety, over one hundred years ago. And I'll match our schools against any state's that kept official school prayers until the Supremes ended the practice. Please ALSO note that prayer was never actually taken out of the schools - just official prayer. But you never see the religious right blaming the increase in school violence on the increase in school prayers! - 0:11:18 on 11 Jun 99 GMT

Dave :Oops - that last message should have read... -just official prayer. Private prayer is now and always has been legal and it seems to have increased greatly in recent decades. But you never see the religious right blaming the increase in school violence on the increase in school prayers! - 0:14:08 on 11 Jun 99 GMT

Doug :Dave; Well Massachusetts had forced prayer since the beginning of the country.So I would like to see if there is a difference between Wisconsin and Massachusetts from 1890- 1962.For some reason I think Wisconsin will have a more peaceful record.Do you know where to find this data? This would be valuable information debunking the myth of prayer. - 2:25:07 on 11 Jun 99 GMT

Rick :no, because He didn't create satan. Satan was an angel that fell, tried to over throw God, and was thrown out of heaven. Satan will have his day, but will loose the battle between good and evil. - 3:20:23 on 11 Jun 99 GMT

Marlene :RICKY- Did you know that "satan" isn't even mentioned in the old testament? As Steven has said, he is merely an invention of the christians. I would even go so far as to suggest that weirdo Paul made him up. - 3:23:16 on 11 Jun 99 GMT

Marlene :RICKY- Huh???I understand christians believe that god created everything! - 3:24:48 on 11 Jun 99 GMT

Marlene :RICKY- What is "good" and what is "evil"? The god of the bible has done many things I consider just horrible. I would equate these horrendous actions with evil. How can one fight it if he does it? - 3:29:45 on 11 Jun 99 GMT

Doug :Ricky"Isa. 45:7 "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create EVIL: I the Lord do all these things."***********Yo, Yo, Yo God=Satan God=Jesus GOD=Evil. I'd pick another religion if I were you. You worship the creator of Satan.Hmmm, that a rough road to hoe Ricky. - 3:32:04 on 11 Jun 99 GMT

Marlene :RICKY- I thought you were on line? I'll wait a few more minutes to see if you answer then I'll log off and go to bed. I ended up working a 12 hour shift today and I've got to go back for the morning shift. I'm wiped! If I don't catch you then "goodnight!". - 3:32:12 on 11 Jun 99 GMT

Marlene..I likely could write a good one too! :DOUG- That "lord" sound like a rather egotistical individual. Maybe Carly Simon could sing something just for him. - 3:36:00 on 11 Jun 99 GMT

Doug :Marlene: don't those xians ever read the bible.I know alot of atheists who became atheists because they did read it."I bet you think this book is about me, I'm such a pain"I'm sure Carly is a better song writter. - 3:51:42 on 11 Jun 99 GMT

Marlene :DOUG- Hey! that sounds good to me! I've been reading some posts (also added my two cents) on taking god out of the Canadian constitution on another messsage board. I'll leave the address if your interested. I had to laugh at the sexist comments these "good christians" resort to when they have nothing else for support. The conversation about religion is dated beginning May 9th I think. Goodnight! - 4:00:37 on 11 Jun 99 GMT

Joette :Ricky - actually Satan is a star player for the Buffalo Sabres. Does this mean that they will lose because the Stars are good little hockey players? - 14:30:05 on 11 Jun 99 GMT

Carl :MARLENE: I found that site to be a boost. I couldn't resist adding a comment to the dialogue-line of the "Queer by choice" player. Do you know if you northerners are watched on the I-net? - 14:54:50 on 11 Jun 99 GMT

Joette :Just to verify my last post - Satan is #81 - 17:51:06 on 11 Jun 99 GMT

Joette :MARLENE - that other site is great! You've pushed a few buttons already! LOL! - 19:50:04 on 11 Jun 99 GMT

Doug :Marlene;The Canadian debate over religion made page two in the Boston Press; that's pretty good.It had two strikes against it, one it's Canadian(they never report anything other that hockey scores) and religion it makes the xians loook bad.I think the torys opposition to freethought will come back to haunt them. - 20:20:28 on 11 Jun 99 GMT

Ricky :The devil is mentioned, the "serpent" is mentioned in Genesis, just like the many disguises he uses, there are several differant names he is given also. - 20:52:14 on 11 Jun 99 GMT

Doug :Ricky:did you know that Adam had a first wife named Lilith.Jewish scriptures tell all about her. - 0:28:38 on 12 Jun 99 GMT

doug :ricky: see your xian bible doesn't tell the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth,after all it is the jews story and why would the xians leave it out.I personally think that the early church thought no one would notice it gone. They left out much in scripture, that early catholic church. Lilith** Overview of Lilith** From Hebrew Myths by Robert Graves and Raphael Patai (annotated by Christeos Pir)** An essay by Jeffrey Smith (from babylon-l, collected by Renee Rosen).** A good introduction to the late medieval traditions, esp. in the Zohar from the first issue of Lilith magazine.** Alt.Mythology A well informed discussion esp. on the Gilgamesh fragment.** Ancient Sources for Lilitu/Lilit** Exerpt from a Prologue to Gilgamesh (may be a Lilith ref.)** Apotropaic magic from Arslan Tash (Syria) 7th. c. BC** In the Dead Sea Scrolls** In Incantation Bowls** Appearances in the Talmud** Her Role in Jewish Mysticism** Exerpt from Isaac b.Jacob ha-Kohen's Treatise on the Left Emanation: Kabbalistic demonology with a somewhat different take on Lilith** Origins from various Kabbalistic sources** The Seductress from various sources** In the pantheon of demons from various sources** And her husband, Samael from various sources** As God's consort** Her ultimate defeat from various sources** - 0:51:26 on 12 Jun 99 GMT

"Confirmed" bachelor :Hey page denizens! Adam with ya' for the first time from HOME iMAC! Zowie! I didn't expect to return to a discussion of my freakin' wife! Suffice to say that we were WAY young back in the biblical day, and I didn't realize the "roaming desire" that would hit me at around age 24. Now, don't get me wrong, Eve is ONE FINE BITCH & all, but you know, a man got to do what a man go to DO (an' sit!). Man, dat garden o Eden stopped bein' sweet back in Genesis, know what I'm sayin'? - 4:57:05 on 12 Jun 99 GMT

Marlene :RICKY- As you can see, no one is arguing with you here. All we ask of you is that before you say to others that god created everything, research the scripture you believe in. Doug has pointed out some good arguments with the bible. Please at least read them. I'm sure you wouldn't buy a car on faith alone. - 10:47:53 on 12 Jun 99 GMT

Marlene :DOUG, JOETTE and CARL- I thought that site was interesting too. Now I'll have to go back and see what you've posted, lol! - 10:50:46 on 12 Jun 99 GMT

Marlene :ADAM- Don't you be blamin' Lilly for your pad hoppin'. Lil was a woman before her time unlike that dizzy Eve you fell for. Not only was Eve silly enough to start cooking apples and sewing fig leaves but she was stupid enough to listen to the lies of a serpent. Now Lil, she would have made a mean apple cider then bumped off the snake to make a needed pair of shoes. - 11:18:45 on 12 Jun 99 GMT

Grant :ADAM-- I'd be returning that iMac thing if it doesn't have martini glass capabilities! - 15:37:17 on 12 Jun 99 GMT

ADAM Martiniweenyyellowpolkadotbikini :Zowee! Land Grant: I did spill a beer on my fist keyboard, thereby frying it. Does that count? Marlene: I have been planning an "original sin" tatoo for my left calf. Ain't that ironic? You know, Adam -- original sin? And hey, I've got an Apple raght heah! I WONDER WHAT JOETTE WILL BUY ME NEXT?? She am such the shoppa! - 14:43:25 on 13 Jun 99 GMT

Marlene :ADAM-Sounds interesting, just "original sin" or the apple tree, the voluptuous Eve and the snake with legs as well? - 16:14:56 on 13 Jun 99 GMT

Joette mets chinoise :ADAM - dat cider goin' down good mon???? I gotcha sumpin neat! - 18:08:50 on 14 Jun 99 GMT

Carl :RICKY: so in the bible the devil "is given" names? Who was it or what was it that gave the devil the names? Now, you bein'a modern day critter, you kno'that there ain't nothing evil about snakes. Right? - 18:39:40 on 14 Jun 99 GMT

Marlene :CARL- You know, you bring up an interesting point there. Most people here in the west hate snakes, yet in some countries they are actually thought of quite positively. I wonder does the bible and it's long history about the "evil serpent" have anything to do with our attitude toward snakes? - 3:07:54 on 15 Jun 99 GMT

Doug :Marlene; Serpants are mostly poisonous in the middle east,so I can see why the hate of snakes is so prevalant.Also for sheep and goat herders snakes must be a big problem.Where I live there aren't any poisonous snakes, yet people from the Mediterranean kill them outright not caring if the snake is a good pest controller.It really gets me mad, to see ignorant people destroy animals for no good reason. - 5:10:38 on 15 Jun 99 GMT

Marlene :DOUG- Never mind people from the Mediterranean area, my neighbors love to kill them too. We actually even had a big argument about it. This year was a bad year for the gater snakes here. I think the winter killed many of them. Now I haven't seen one this year thanks to the winter and the assholes next door. Some cultures see the snake as powerful therefore revere it. Poisonous snakes I would stay away from but the gater snakes here are welcome in my yard any time. - 17:51:36 on 15 Jun 99 GMT

Marlene :DOUG- Not gater, garter. Sheesh I'm poor at spelling! - 17:53:12 on 15 Jun 99 GMT

Carl :OPEN: Not counting RICKY who's a forgivin'xian, who here actually forgives? Ever wonder what that's supposed to mean or do? It seems like its an act of one's mind that occurs as when one opts to dull a moment or event of intense or excited sensory input. Is this supposed to be good? If yes, then who or what good does it serve? Was it, maybe to sever the connection to revenge, for an age when existence was composed of simpler needs and satisfactions? Is that word the proverbial rug for what we now know can be but not always just some psychosomatic state o'mind? What if it that event or deed, is actually just a keen instructive electrochemical moment of logic that in simpler times when little was known seemed like it was but fuel for the tyranny of the senses? Perhaps forgiveness was a word those ancient herdsmen once thunk up as the way to understand the helplessness and comforts of being those early animal experiments of when they themselves displaced and became the cow or sheep herds'leader. - 17:53:21 on 15 Jun 99 GMT

Joette :CARL - I was watching a newsmagazine show last night, and it was a story about a murder, and the father of the murder victim was asked if he's ready to forgive the murderer...he stated "to forgive is to really say "I don't care anymore", and so I am not at that stage yet". That line really made me think. I know that I have been accused of "holding grudges" but heck, if someone does something that hurts, why shouldn't I let them know it? - 19:47:46 on 15 Jun 99 GMT

Ricky :You get better results from someone when you forgive rather than hold a grudge. I'll give you an example: I had a fellow that done me wrong, "in a big way". We wound up going to court. After that, he showed his "A" again, so I took a law suit against him. That calmed him down, knowing I had the goods on him, and I was going to win the court battle again. The courts was going to award me with twenty grand. This guy, like me, had to work hard for his money. His wife also worked. But instead of taking the award, I went to him and told him I rather have a hand shake, and both of us act like men instead of kids. As a resultof this "kind" jester on my part, this guy's whole life has changed. Now, he even goes to church. I guess he saw the "Christian Action" I played and caused him to make some changes in his life. That's what it's all about. - 20:42:28 on 15 Jun 99 GMT

Doug :Carl+Marlene+Joette: forgive maybe, but they still have to serve out their sentence for the crime. ****And there should be a law to protect garter snakes from deliberate killings.The neighbors kid killed our backyard garder, and that really pissed me off.He enjoyed doing it and his mother said" it's only a snake".He also is a litter bug and bully.Last year I found a milk snake in the backyard so I brought it down to the pond where the neighbors kid won't kill it.If he really pisses me off I swear I'll drive down to the blue hills and get a copperhead, so it will bite the sob and teach him a lesson. - 21:32:46 on 15 Jun 99 GMT

Carl :DOUG; must dissuade you from taking that drive, you may be found and eventually sentenced for the crime o'murder. Are the snakes really that important? There may be other timely courses o'action one may invoke to affect that kids' unmindful ways. If not perhaps what you have there is the clay of a future born-again xian type. These types ain't exactly potential brain surgeons you kno'. - 22:34:23 on 15 Jun 99 GMT

Doug :Carl: not really, this kid is in trouble with the law and soon will be "up the river in da big house"I honestly believe this kid is sociopath.When he was youger he would swear at his mother while climbing all over there new car. Then his mother threw out his shoes at him from the front door swearing back at him like a trooper.Not to be out done he threw a couple of bricks at the front door swearing back at his mother.His mother I found out used to swear at and berate my kids, that is until I caught her in the act. Well she always has covered for this kid no matter what he has done; you know he didn't mean it or he wasn't here but at a friends house.Now after years of my kids being tormented by this disfunctional family, the police are getting wise to him and his mother.She can't wisk him out of public school to catholic school anymore.The catholic school won't take him due to his being a trouble maker. This is the type of kid who has to win and be head of his team, but he always wants to exclude one of the kids from play.He will counter a plastic whiffle ball bat with an aluminium bat; which almost fractured my sons head.He ran over my two year old girls foot with his bike (12year old) playing chicken(more like terrorizing a baby.His mother said he wasn't there and coached him as to what to say.I was home and saw him riding away.All the other neighbor hood kids saw him too.But a bald face lie from his mother saved him.My daughter had to go to the hospital a be x-rayed ,while we were there 2 dectectives came in and asked the desk about it but never came over for our story.So you see this kid really enjoys hurting other people, I mean he isn't a goof, he is dead seriously mean. A true sociopath if there was one. - 2:44:40 on 16 Jun 99 GMT

Ricky :Pray for him, sounds like he could use one. The devil's got a holt on him! Now that you had your laugh, take the boy fishing or something. He seems to be crying out for attention. Some do this in a negitive way. Give him some! I would bet his father don't live with him and his mom, and surely don't give him very much attention. - 3:20:47 on 16 Jun 99 GMT

doug :ricky:no way he'd kill the fish.His father does live with them.No the kid doesn't have feelings for others pain.He is a sociopath like ted bundy.Pray you've got to be kidding he needs heavy physciatric drugs so others won't be hurt anymore. - 4:06:57 on 16 Jun 99 GMT

Marlene :DOUG- I was watching a show on TV this week (I can't remember the name of it for the life of me), anyway it was about people who kill and kill over and over again. This one guy was sentenced to 20-50 years for killing two girls, one fourteen (a former girlfriend) and one 26 (someone he randomly picked), he was also suspect in other murders but was caught when he attempted to kill another girl but her brother was home and one of them was able to contact the police. This guy was now up for release but the doctor who evaluated him felt the guy would just kill again. They trumpted up a charge against the guy saying a shoelace he had in jail was actually going to be used as a weapon. I jury found him guilty so he has to stay in jail. Good thing! The doctor though believes (as I do) that sociopathic behavior like this guy's can not be cured because it isn't a disease but a personality disorder. And this is where I really agree with him, that it is a genetic disorder. His parents were interviewed and although I found them overly religious, they were good parents. SO RICKY- Stop painting all parents of anti-social individuals black. - 13:58:52 on 16 Jun 99 GMT

Joette :RICKY - the word is "gesture", not "jester", although in this case your use of the word is apt. - 16:22:48 on 16 Jun 99 GMT

doug :marlene:that really interesting that sociopaths can't be treated. Do you know of any sociopaths who function normally in society without being law breakers.I really don't know.This kid in my neighborhood is in trouble with the law all the time now, he,s 15 years old.It wouldn't take much for me to believe that he is guilty of some crime. - 22:07:13 on 16 Jun 99 GMT

Marlene :DOUG- While sociopaths have no feelings of remorse or empathy, many don't like the consequences of breaking the law or how they feel when they are rejected or when people don't want anything to do with them. They do need other people around even if it's for their own benefit. This is about the only thing that will keep them from anti-social acts against others. They do know the difference between what's the right thing to do and what's the wrong thing to do, they just don't "feel" the difference like most people do. If the 15 year-old is actually one of these types of people then a hard line and consequences will be the only thing that will help him control himself when he decides he wants your things or he finds it fun to hurt something. But I think Ricky may have a bit of a point when he says that someone has to teach him empathy. Many kids these days are so self-centered and that's because we have (for some reason) given them the idea that the universe revolves around them. The "old-fashioned" idea that one is just a small part of the whole is the only way to teach empathy, methinks. - 0:16:41 on 17 Jun 99 GMT

Doug :Marlene:Thanks for the info!This kid then really needs help from proffesionals.I or any neighbors can't communicate and haven't been able to in many years to this kid. - 1:41:37 on 17 Jun 99 GMT

Carl :DOUG: You shouldn't be so hurried in what you say about that kid, he could be a future USA President! The kid ain't afeared to lie, like someone known to do (don't forget its ok to lie "we" all do it) its also ok for a prez to kill (remember the drug place in the mideast), a lot of what you seem to think distasteful look very presidential to me. - 14:30:22 on 17 Jun 99 GMT

Carl :OPEN: We here seem to have stumbled into matters of what is important to human organism, the physical or the psychical? So far presentations seem to favor the physical as it is an expression of the psychical. Good ol'RICKY wanta to hang in the picture by mentioning the thing o'prayer. Hands together and eyes closed, well what does that do? There is a highly recommended book available titled,"Planetary Dreams", recommeded it is by those nontheistic types, mostly. Also there is this site, a nonwesternman site that some may like. - 16:37:35 on 17 Jun 99 GMT

Carl :OPEN: We here seem to have stumbled into matters of what is important to the human organism, the physical or the psychical? So far presentations seem to favor the physical as it is an expression of the psychical. Good ol'RICKY wantsta to hangin'the picture by mentioning the thing o'prayer. Hands together and eyes closed, well, what does that do? There is a highly recommended book available titled,"Planetary Dreams", recommeded it is by those nontheistic types, mostly. Also there is this site, a nonwesternman site that some may like. - 16:39:18 on 17 Jun 99 GMT

Carl :CURSES!!! a double entry, it was supposed to be after and only the slight amendment - 16:41:31 on 17 Jun 99 GMT

Marlene :CARL- I understand that your government has now passed a law making it legal for schools to post the ten commandments (won't RTL be thrilled). They figure this may stop the violence. Yup! every kid out there will stop and read those commandments and then stand in awe. That will stop the violence for a few moments I suppose. - 20:52:49 on 17 Jun 99 GMT

Carl :MARLENE: It has cleared one of the legislative bodys. What can one say, I just figgered that something like this was going to happen first back when with R.Regan, then the likes of G.Bush came along, then o'course WJC and his deeds. WJC opened that prospect when folks were sayin'how all lie and so on. The body politic does not exist. That notion concerns learned and thinking people, naw, there ain't no such thing down here. There's just the herd those folks that still 'follow' the leader. Sad and regrettable, the only question now, who goes first who will suffer pain, imprisonment and death for the lack of a responsible mindset? - 21:21:28 on 17 Jun 99 GMT

doug :marlene+carl: I would doubt that it is constitutionaly leagal. It is clearly an endorsement of one religion over others.Also the ten comandments run counter to some of our laws. - 21:32:13 on 17 Jun 99 GMT

Marlene :DOUG- But I understand it's been passed! - 22:04:07 on 17 Jun 99 GMT

Carl :DOUG: "constitutional" that does not matter, people in this country were very recently ver supportive of a lying degenerate sodmizer, they don't care. They don't think they want to think, and probably never have. Shit! even here a gal goes wide eyed and thoughtless whenever I question her about her godthing. She has said before she packs knives. Do you think that she is a reasoning and thoughtful person? - 22:13:28 on 17 Jun 99 GMT

Carl :AMENDS: curses, that s/b They don't think they "don't" want to think etc. - 22:15:06 on 17 Jun 99 GMT

Carl :OPEN01: Then on the other hand, I can see also that this is another example of 'those' in control to reaffirm a basis for their apparatus that exerts control. Its about like the point i made some time back to a lawyer who posted that he was an atheist. It didn't make sense to me that he'd say such a thing when that is the basis for law in the USA. The legislative bodys are in the same predicament. That just so happens to be why 'they' now and then say that this land was founded by some devine plan, or whatever that was. While on the other hand its regularly said this is a land of man by man for man, secular is the word. 'They' somehow can still defer to a godthing, [that just so happens to be my example of the occam razor thing it is just a politico gimmick, an idea for them to call on, as its needed]. It is just a safety net they could invoke as its needed. - 22:50:14 on 17 Jun 99 GMT

doug :Marlene:It only passed the House of representatives(house of commons), next it has to go to the Senate(house of lords), and then the President can veto it, but the bill can be over ridden with a twothirds majority of both houses. Also the Supreme Court{judical) can rule it unconstitutional.So it still has a very long way to go to become a law. - 1:59:05 on 18 Jun 99 GMT

Doug :Carl; you must have loved R. Millhouse Nixon. Dick Nixon before he dicks you.Hey we could have had the pineapple for president or Pat the "Chipmunk" Robertson, or hell Pat "I never met a nazi I didn't like" Buchanan.One little flute will do ya is a much better alternative. - 2:05:38 on 18 Jun 99 GMT

Ricky :Marlene, don't get me wrong. I believe people should be punished for their crimes. Unfortunately, some people can't be helped. But some can. I just concluded about the boy Doug was talking about because he fitted someone I know that lived with a single parent and never got the attention he needed or deserved, causing him to do things to get attention. Through others taking time to spend with the bou, taking him fishing, to movies, and other activities, he completely turned around after he found out people cared and loved him. - 2:31:14 on 18 Jun 99 GMT

Marlene :RICKY- I'm sure there are kids like that and I'm glad your a caring enough person to help them. I personally was a Cub leader for five years so I know how satisfying it can be to help others. As you know, one doesn't have to believe in god to try to be a good member of society. BTW, I understand the Americans decided to execute another member of our species tonight. SAD! I hope your not one of those christians that push the death penalty? - 3:17:55 on 18 Jun 99 GMT

Marlene :DOUG- Well, now I'm relieved! Unbelieveable how people can even begin to think that the big ten will curb youth violence. - 3:20:37 on 18 Jun 99 GMT

Marlene :Has anyone ever seen the comedian, Eddie Izzey? You know the executive transvestite...???? The guy did a real number on religions on HBO, having a real good time with christianity and druidism. - 3:23:34 on 18 Jun 99 GMT

Marlene :Yikes, spelled his name wrong Eddie Izzard... - 3:35:36 on 18 Jun 99 GMT

How long has the boy been like this - 4:06:53 on 18 Jun 99 GMT

Marlene :Do you mean Eddie? Quite some time so I understand lol! Actually the guy is a whiz on history. His comedy shows contain a lot of history and the absurdity of how we make horrible people into heros, including the bible, koran etc. - 13:35:31 on 18 Jun 99 GMT

Carl :DOUG: during the time o'the Nixon junta my concerns were focused on other things. In retrospect, for the living he's safely dead. As for the decalogue thing, seeing how those now in charge are not all that different from the historical 'men-in-charge', that action serves what they mean to preserve, the way they and their kind can stay as the 'men-in-charge'. Their action their impression is supposed to be an expression of their concern and to pacify the masses. While the decalogue also vents the notions of misogynism, slavery, separatism and privilege its metaphors also serve to quell ones present desires. The words and ideas have a Rousseaulianism affect of, for times of yore. Some people just don't want to be responsible and that is an easy out for them. Unfortunately, I dare say, that number is large and all could be caught in this net. Resistance IS NOT futile. - 15:21:08 on 18 Jun 99 GMT

Doug :Carl:That's what they said about jesus.And look at all the trouble he's caused.Yes, this is a very selfish times.It has gone about as far as the freemarket will take it. The gap is getting larger and people will start to think if they are taken away from the "opiates".After years of celebratiy worship of all the sexual and other escapades of out media and entertainment people it was only a matter of time before politicans jumped in to reap the rewards of scandal and suave. - 5:49:06 on 19 Jun 99 GMT

Ricky :Thanks for the comment, Marlene. Buy the way, I do know a lot of people who practice great moral values that are not Christians. People who are great folks to be around. Never take me the wrong way by thinking that I believe only by being a beliver can one be good and kind. If it weren't for people loving other people, the world would be a horable place to live in. - 20:01:13 on 19 Jun 99 GMT

Ricky :So far as the "10" in school, well I think it should go a little futher than that. I think if a person wants to pray, let them. If a person wants to worship a "Buda" that is their right. If someone does not want to have anything to do with any of it, let them sit there and be quite, or even leave the class until it's over. Might not help, but can't hurt. - 20:04:52 on 19 Jun 99 GMT

Marlene :RICKY- Actually most atheists are caring people. Many are humanists and are opposed to religion because of some of it's inhumane practices. For instance Carl here, is a baseball coach. Although I 'm not a Cub leader anymore, I am active against capital punishment and other humane interests and I do give blood. My drivers' licence says that if I die accidently all body parts can be used (if they are any good) also if they can use my body in any scientific research, they are also welcome. I donate to organizations that help others but I do try to avoid some of the christian ones because they (IMO) do not give without trying to convert the ones they are helping. Some religions don't do this and these I will help. Most atheists are very good people, you will discover. You'll find most of the people who kill and hurt others believe in god. Religion IMO isn't a basis for morality. How about putting a prayer room in school? I'd be pissed if I had to leave the classroom because someone else wanted to pray which is in my opinion, ridiculous. Prayer can also happen 15 minutes before school starts and be led by volunteers of religious oganizations. It shouldn't be happening on school time. - 0:54:24 on 20 Jun 99 GMT

Doug :Marlene:In the states an individual can pray in schools; always could.The objection to praying is the governments particapating(teachers,and other government employees)in any forced,group,or mandatory prayers.Since public schools are government run,someone coming from the outside(priest, minister,rabbi,etc) to run prayers for all isn't leagal either.A captive audiance is in violation, because the students(teachers too!) have to be there.A separate room would be in violation as an accomidation of a particular religious group.This sort of thing our founding fathers wished to avoid(opening up the can of worms)dividing up time, money,classes, etc for each religous group.The infighting would be terrible as in other countries. So the secular government protects all religions from government and from other religions.In this way, the USA has religions that thrive in the freedom of religion and separation of church and state.Without this law only a few religions would be allowed to reap the benefits of government "dollars and support".The most dominate religions wold prevail, but at what level.Catholics in the northeast,fundys in the bible belt,etc.But on the Federal level each would try for total domination of the country as a whole.This in turn would create strife and unrest among the losers, and lead to violence and discrimination at a higher level. - 3:38:40 on 20 Jun 99 GMT

Joette :STEVEN - a hearty congratulations on the Stanley Cup now safely ensconced deep in the heart of Texas! You called it EXACTLY right, and I know now that I shall never make a wager with you :) - 15:31:40 on 20 Jun 99 GMT

Joette :RICKY - why should non-theists have to leave a room if they don't want to hear prayers? Again, the superiority complex comes through loud and clear. - 15:32:34 on 20 Jun 99 GMT

ADAM Wanna Bet? :But you'll still Jo-bette with me, right? Oh, by the way, godsux. - 16:54:33 on 20 Jun 99 GMT

ADAM Antiestablihmentarianism: :DOUG: I'm not so sure the founding fathers were particularly worried about dividing resources among religions or, for that matter, even sectarian strife. Those seem to me to be more modern --- and legitimate --- concerns for legislators and courts. Rather, as with so many clauses in the U.S. Consitution, particularly the Bill of Rights, the wording of the two religion clauses of the First Amendment were direct responses to existing or prior harmful practices in England. The first of these, the Establishment Clause --- which is at issue in the current 10-commandments debate --- is designed to prevent the founding of a particular state church, like the abusive Church of England, to the detriment of all others. Proponents of the 10 commandments postings argue that they are not promoting state sponsorship of any given religion, but merely the underlying values on which our society is based. It is true that the roots of the society are firmly planted in JudeoChristianity, but we all know the argument is hogwash. Regardless of the personal religious beliefs of the fathers, they deliberately chose to avoid state aid of any religious viewpoint, and their model of the evil to be avoided was a Christian church. This is not to mention that the 10 commandments clearly have nothing to do with a host of monotheistic sects, ALL multitheistic ones and, of course, the people whose rights are most routinely trampled with impunity by the delusional majority: the atheists. The 10Cs absolutely are JudeoXtian only, and perhaps Islamic. By the way, I would like to follow with some direct quotes from the 10Cs that might surprise many of you, especially JudeoXtians, but the post is already lengthy (albeit informative). Oh, the other clause is the Free Exercise Clause, the other side of the coin that bars the government from PREVENTING anyone from practicing their religions. - 17:15:10 on 20 Jun 99 GMT

Adam Erratam, Madam!em :That punny title was supposed to be "Antiestablishment..." with 2 "s"s. - 17:21:48 on 20 Jun 99 GMT

Ricky :I'm not saying they "have to leave", just unless they wish to. I'm saying if one wants to pray, don't jail they for doing it in school. - 20:08:12 on 20 Jun 99 GMT

Doug :Adam:Jefferson banned the 10 commandments from the University of Virginia, because of separation of church and state.And yes the founding fathers didn't want a state religion,but it went further than that.They wanted a country where anyone of any belief or non-belief could practice freely without government interference. - 20:25:23 on 20 Jun 99 GMT

Marlene :Thankyou DOUG and ADAMINSKI for the info on American law. But really, do you want the 10 posted in your government buildings? Here, that would go over like a lead balloon. If we posted the 10 then we'd have to post the "laws" of all other religions too. This is why having "god" in our constitution is unconstitutional. All other gods and goddesses then should be a part as well or...just not have any of them. - 3:40:10 on 21 Jun 99 GMT

Marlene :RICKY- No, I don't think praying should be disallowed but it shouldn't be carried on on school time either. Muslims, for instance, pray five times a day. They have their prayer matts and do their submission bowing facing east. If prayer is okay for christians then it should be for muslims too, no? If so, how many times will class be interrupted for prayer? Then there are other religions too with different rituals. I'm still saying, why would I have to leave a history or science class because someone wants to interrupt it by praying? - 3:48:25 on 21 Jun 99 GMT

PASSING THROUGH......... :> > Most Middle Eastern countries recognize the following Islamic law:"After having sexual relations with a lamb, it is a mortal sin to eat its flesh." (umm ok, I'm sure the lamb appreciates that one) > > > > In Lebanon, men are legally allowed to have sex with animals,but the animals must be female. Having sexual relations with a male animal is punishable by death. (OK, like THAT makes sense... ) > > > > In Bahrain, a male doctor may legally examine a woman's genitals, but is forbidden from looking directly at them during the examination. He may only see their reflection in a mirror. > > > > Muslims are banned from looking at the genitals of a corpse.This also applies to undertakers; the sex organs of the deceased must be covered with a brick or piece of wood at all times. (...a brick?????) > > > > The penalty for masturbation in Indonesia is decapitation. (wonder how they enforce that one??) > > > > There are men in Guam whose full-time job is to travel the countryside and deflower young virgins, who pay them for the privilege of having sex for the first time. Reason: Under Guam law, it is expressly forbidden for virgins to marry. (now lets just think for a minute...is there any job anywhere else in the world that even comes close to this?) > > > > In Hong Kong, a betrayed wife is legally allowed to kill her adulterous husband, but may only do so with her bare hands. (the husband's lover, on the other hand, may be killed in any manner desired.) > > > > Topless saleswomen are legal in Liverpool, England - but only in tropical fish stores. (of course!!) > > > > In Cali, Colombia, a woman may only have sex with her husband, and the first time this happens her mother must be in the room to witness the act. (I shudder at the thought) > > > > In Santa Cruz, Bolivia it is illegal for a man to have sex with a woman and her daughter at the same time. (...we have to presume this was a big enough problem that they had to pass this law...?) > > > > In Maryland, it is illegal to sell condoms from vending machines with one > >exception: prophylactics may be dispensed from a vending machine only in >places where alcoholic beverages are sold for consumption on the premises." >(Is this a great country or what?) - 12:17:02 on 21 Jun 99 GMT

DavidJK :Ricky, you appear to be more open-minded than others, considering the stink that the religious right has been making over wiccan chaplains in the US Army. - 14:01:45 on 21 Jun 99 GMT

Carl :OPEN00: If there is a feature topic among the things given by the passerthru, it seems to concern sex. Sex w/animals? Is it bad? According to that "Lilith" site an account there has it that prior to the fabrication o'Lilith the Adam character not only named the critters he also tested them in search of his sexual satisfaction. Could those ol'sheep and goat herders write or what? If we take pause here, for a moment of imaginative conjecture, is it safe to think those ol'herders got horny and copulated w\their critters? At times o'course some were caught and as a joke for them- the herders, and for others- the tribe or group, they- the herders, said that some protective and concerned spirit was 'present'. Their tribe or group's ensuing interactive dialogues of those so reported accounts of behavior and the spirits, did these reports tales lead eventually to the formation of stuff and things such as, for example, the decalogue? So, dare it be said the joke is, we today still approve of those ol'herders copulating w/their animals? As the saying goes, they must be rolling over in their graves, in laughter! - 15:28:10 on 21 Jun 99 GMT

Joette :Daivd! ((hug))...what's this about Wiccan priests in the military? Here in Canada we had a college professor take the administration of his school to court because he had asked to take his paid holidays at this time of year (solstice, or is that solstace?) instead of at another time because this is a big festival time for Wiccans. Our illustrious supreme court declared that all religious holidays, no matter what the denomination, are entitled to certain days off, not just Christianity (this is the same supreme court that recently ruled that gay and lesbian couples are as equal under the law as heterosexual couples). Sometimes my heart bursts with pride! - 16:03:40 on 21 Jun 99 GMT

Joette :fun - 19:30:38 on 21 Jun 99 GMT

Ricky :David: As there are people who claim to be sportsmen, some really give hunters a "bad name". There are those who will go on other people's land and abuse the fields, paths where farmers use to drive equipment on, and shoot high power rifles very careless. Coming from a farming community, I see this kind of thing often. This behavior has give deer hunters a bad name. But there are some that try to respect the farmers and hunt careful. This is how it is with "Christians" A lot of folks proclaim to be Christians, but fail to live like one. One who hides behind christianity just uses the name, making true Christians suffer. But thanks for your comment. I try to be open minded and treat all people as I want to be treated. - 21:57:30 on 21 Jun 99 GMT

DavidJK :Joette! ((Hug)) The US Army allows wiccans to serve as chaplains. Congressman Bob Barr of Georgia has tried to stop this. Here's a link. It speaks for itself. - 22:04:23 on 21 Jun 99 GMT

DavidJK :Let's try again. - 22:08:16 on 21 Jun 99 GMT

Carl :RICKY: perhaps that nice idea- DAVID's word appear, is just a joke? almost a mean one but, like the S.Clemens character that fed ant polly's hated big ol'red rooster a kernal o'corn. Remember how it went? As soon as the rooster picked it up and gulped it down the S.Clemens character would jerk it back out. That ol'rooster tho'kept comin back and it'd do it agin. Maybe, just maybe thats what we got here? - 22:08:24 on 21 Jun 99 GMT

Ricky :Having sex with anything besides your wife is moraly wrong I think. Even though some might find joy in pluging some dumb animal, I think it's sick - 0:13:36 on 22 Jun 99 GMT

Explain more about the military chaplain and what he was doing. - 1:32:46 on 22 Jun 99 GMT

Doug :All:If you piss off enough folks in the military over their beliefs, just who do they think will fight for them.I can see it now, xian services only.I wouldn't want to be in combat and have to watch my back with those wiccan folks if I was a xian.What dumb sh-ts those fundy xians are.Frag city. - 3:21:03 on 22 Jun 99 GMT

Adam LATER :I apologize, the reference work I have with the full & ridiculous 10 comandments must be at work. If I have a free moment, I'll post from there. I thought I had it here in the penthouse. Sorry. Oh, and Doug, what you said in reply to me (I guess) is the Free Exercise clause part, which I was not expounding upon. I still don't recall hearing about (that doesn't mean it wasn't so) the fathers' concerns about sectarianism. As I said, and you apparently agreed, the two concerns were (1) no single state or state-favored church, and (2) no prevention of individual free exercise. - 6:22:52 on 22 Jun 99 GMT

DavidJK :Well, the wiccan chaplains do whatever it is that chaplains do. There's nothing sinister about that. They have made compromises. Daggers are allowed in ceremonies (they may not be allowed to cut anything), jewelry must be kept to a minimum, candles are not allowed in the barracks, and (duh) ceremonies may not be performed in the nude. The only protest is from people who drag out the tired old myth that equates wicca with devil-worship. - 13:37:01 on 22 Jun 99 GMT

Grant :DAVIDJK-- That may not be the best example of open-mindedness or its lack. There is not a seperate chaplain for each religion or denomination in each unit. A chaplain's duty is to see to the "spiritual needs" of everyone in his or her unit regardless of religious beliefs. While I expect full rights as an atheist, I wouldn't consider it my right to officiate over religious rites and rituals for Catholics, Mormons, etc. While there is plenty of narrow-mindedness to go around, I don't see Christian opposition to Wiccan chaplains as necessarily such. - 14:10:16 on 22 Jun 99 GMT

Carl :OPEN00: as some o'you may kno'there is a female real estate agent seeking signatures- for the upcoming elections, that would make adultery a crime. But gosh! I've read that 30% o'those reproduced are the results of those 'wayward' moments. And for RICKY, where in your book o'myths, you say is the godgiven, does it say monogamy is preferred o'er polygamy? - 14:34:45 on 22 Jun 99 GMT

Joette :DAVID - thanks for that URL. I found the article rather disturbing. I can not understand the mentality that believes that because equality is extended to some, the mainstream think their rights are being violated. It makes no sense to me. As Michael Moore said "who put the word Mental in fundamental"? (he also said it would be better that they concentrate more on the "fun" in the word than the "mental"). - 17:56:40 on 22 Jun 99 GMT

Carl :OPEN01: Upon looking around at the action being taken "for the public good" that seems to be a two pronged assault. One is the gun thing and the other is the sex thing. In both cases the remedy is simplistically god via the bible or god via schools. The school approach is further covered, hidden, by its educational value for the public. If kids are taught, so the religious faction portrays it, that a godthings says "sex is ----", then the kids will be someday better citisens. The religious adherents will not say what the godthing says in the scriptures about the sciences- pick one, beyond that their religious scriptures have it one must give and pray, a lot. Nor do they say why "guns" something the bible writers did not know, are not good. Does this not make contemporary gun issue/religious stuff meaningless? The point in either concern, there is nothing in the religious realm domain of reference relevant to a godthing that negates sex or guns. What do the religious human organisms really want? - 18:16:46 on 22 Jun 99 GMT

Steven :ANY <<>> I just got back from Cancun, Mexico and had a blast. The wife and I took a day and went to Chichen-Itza, the ruins of an acient Mayan city. If was so impressive and awe inspiring it is hard to describe. These people were so advanced in Math and Astronomy it was incredible, thousands of years before the myth of christ. The guide that we were with for part of the day was Mayan, and he had a lot of interesting things to say. He, and the Mayan people, are not real happy about the Spanish, the conquerers of their lands. In the name of god, the Spainiards pillaged their ancient city's, destroying everything they could, all in the name of their mythic god. For example, there are 3 codex's of the Mayan language, but they are in a museum in France, Germany, and England. Mexico mearly has copies of these codex's. It is of my opionion, and those of the Mayan people, that these treasures belong to the Mayan peoples and should be kept in the country form which they were stolen. On the way to Chichen-Itza we were lucky enough to go through many native Mayan villages. The Mayans have lived the same way for thousands of years. They did not have houses with windows, or air condition, or tv's, or radios, or any of what we consider necessary, but are really just conforts. Their houses are wooden, with grass roofs, with their livestock, donkeys etc. within the family's accepted area of their household. What I did notice was that, yes the dwellings had dirt floors etc, but the people themselves and their dwellings were immaculate/clean. A large portion of them believe in the religion that was pushed on them by the Spainiards, but many are rejecting it. The Mayan that was our guide for a brief bit really harbored a tremendous amount of angst for christianity and the slavery that it represents. We got along quite well needless to say. if you ever have the opportunity, visiting Chichen-Itza is definitly worth the time. I understand that Telum is also nice to visit. - 19:23:47 on 22 Jun 99 GMT

doug :Carl:What do the religious human organisms really want? Complete control! - 1:39:07 on 23 Jun 99 GMT

Marlene :STEVEN- Wow! I'd love to go there! As you likely know I've read a great deal on the Mayan culture. I hope they do eventually abandon the catholic religion and get back to their roots but I hope not the sacrifices (lol!). Isn't the Mayans that believe their will be a big change in the world as we know it in 2011? Believe it or not, many of our Aboriginals in the north still live in tents in the summer and log cabins in the winter. Most don't have hydro or water . - 3:47:44 on 23 Jun 99 GMT

Ricky :Marlene, lets go take the trip to mexico this fall. - 5:01:46 on 23 Jun 99 GMT

HI STEVEN.. :What a ball-tearer. Keep going back. - 13:28:53 on 23 Jun 99 GMT

Steven :to unamed? Ball-tearer? wtf? - 14:47:46 on 23 Jun 99 GMT

Carl :STEVEN: Gee! I read in grade 4 or 5 that H.Cortez conquered the Aztex who had wiped out the few remaining Mayans when the Aztexans were decimating mexico. Were these mayan guides just believable? - 15:02:11 on 23 Jun 99 GMT

I think Rickey is in love.... - 15:27:09 on 23 Jun 99 GMT

innernet love, aah, its all good - 15:38:29 on 23 Jun 99 GMT

Steven :CARL <<>> we learn a lot of supposed facts in elementary school that are either false or completly wrong. Especially in the US. The Mayans were no more decimated than any other tribe in Mexico by that time. The Aztec were simply just another tribe that came into power about 300 yrs after the Mayan empire's downfall. The Aztec conquered the Toltecs, who had many moons before conquered part of the Mayan empire. Anyway, there are plenty of Aztecs, Mayans and Toltecs in Mexico. As a matter of fact, the rebellion in Chiaspas (sp), a state in Mexico (in the Yucatan), is by a Mayan tribe. Another case of natives being persecuted and the natives fighting back. - 17:55:50 on 23 Jun 99 GMT

Steven :MARLENE <<>> I believe you are speaking of 2012. This is the time in which the Mayan calender starts over. The current one is over 3000 years old, and is far more accurate than the Gregorian calender. There is a lot of special emphasis put on this date by the Maya, but I am not sure of all of the implications. - 17:59:11 on 23 Jun 99 GMT

Joette :This URL will make a critical thinker vomit. - 18:21:58 on 23 Jun 99 GMT

Steven :JOETTE <<>> yes, that is fairly sickening. Are you sure Robert E Lee doesnt run that site? Maybe Ricky is friends with the christians that run that web page. - 19:10:42 on 23 Jun 99 GMT

Carl :OPEN00: speakin o'R.Lee types any ever hear o'James Dobson? I hear the guy figures he has a hotline connection to some godthing and has many uncritical thinker types 'in his fold'. I hear tell also he's scarin'the political types into his way o'seeing a morality that is right for "all" inna'USA. It looks like his organisation buttressed or was a key lobbiest o'the recent prayer thing. DOUG could have a real thing exemplifying that control thingy with this Dobson person. - 19:43:34 on 23 Jun 99 GMT

Doug :Carl: Wasn't that Dobson one of the founders of the (IM)moral majority.He and Paul Weyrich,pat (the chipmonk)Robertson,(crazy)Jerry falwell,and all the sicko right wing freaks.All we need is for a xian to pull the trigger at school and their campaign is down the drain. - 1:45:43 on 24 Jun 99 GMT

Marlene :ALL- Dobson is the idiot to writes all the books on raising children with the christian way. He throws in a lot psychology etc. I've read a few of his books. - 3:38:20 on 24 Jun 99 GMT

Marlene :RICKY- If that was actually your post, I don't live a hop, skip and a jump away from Mexico or else I've have been there by now. I have been to Nogales though, lol! I hope to try to get away this winter and Steven has given me a good idea as to where. STEVEN- Did you go as a tour type of thing or did you fly or drive down and do everything on your own? - 3:41:12 on 24 Jun 99 GMT

Carl :DOUG: You kno'in the same intuitive way that I seem to know that the national news media wouldn't run an accurate report of such an incident. Like the well to do well connected don't do real criminal time for "drug abuse" but instead go to medical centers for a "cleanup", the media would treat a scenario- as you envision, as if it were some sort of"personal abuse". Isn't it almost amazing that a system of free enterprise as a phenomenon so easily makes one thing a bad-thing and another an acceptable thing? - 14:38:47 on 24 Jun 99 GMT

Joette :MARLENE - have you been following the Ludwig case out in Alberta? He used to be a minister, and had a parish in a town called Goderich (maybe you know that town), which isn't far from where I live. He actually lost his job there, and was banned from the Christian Reform Church, et al. From what I have read about him, his little compound out there is actually a cult. I feel sorry for his kids. - 19:10:02 on 24 Jun 99 GMT

Carl :OPEN00: well, for the first time ever I was booted from a religious chat roon! Usually I've been able to ask those folks a question or two and a discussion ensues. It was the "Theology Chat" site. There seems to have been a change of some kind there, all they want to do pray and bless each other. That saddens me how anyone could be so, is the word, stupid? - 20:09:35 on 24 Jun 99 GMT

Carl :OPEN01: now that I've had some time to reflect and contemplate on that booting action, at this time, the one striking aspect, its infantilism. Remember that child, back when, that was upset at you who'd cover their eyes so as not to see you? Remember too, how it used to be a genuine childhood concern? Now, as adults they do that booting thing and if reports are true, elsewhere on the world worse is done to others in that 'shutout' behavior. I guess all the religious adherents want is a continuous nonstop discussion of god jc and heaven the virgin mother angels grace and all that other stuff. - 21:10:16 on 24 Jun 99 GMT

Doug :Carl:It must have good what ever you said, hell it made them thing.And you know that thinking is very dangerous for the flock.Baaaa Baaaaa!!They tend to follow a pattern of first outward preaching,and then when no one is converting they isolate themselves from the world. Now if stage three happens we all read about it in the papers(waco,jonestown,quebec/switzerland,hale bop,etc). - 2:18:43 on 25 Jun 99 GMT

Marlene :JOETTE- Yes, I have been following that case and I know the area that the farm is in. It turns out that the daughter may have been the person who shot the girl. I understand though that the truck load of kids were on Ludwig's property harrassing the girl and her friend who were sleeping in a tent. From what I can gather, the girl thought the truck that the kids were in was trying to run down the tent they were in so she shot. But nutcases they are indeed. I don't know if you know this but Ludwig himself stands accused of blowing up oil derricks in the area beacuse he claims that the oil companies are polluting the area. - 4:23:07 on 25 Jun 99 GMT

Marlene :JOETTE- I forgot to mention, yup I know where Goderich is too. BTW are you still online? I sent off an email to you and didn't get it returned so I was hoping you changed your mind. - 4:25:47 on 25 Jun 99 GMT

Marlene :CARL- Now you can join the crowd, ha ha! RTL won't even let me into his chat room and I haven't even done anything but ask him if he had nothing more interesting to put on his page than our conversations here. I think it must be FEAR OF THE TRUTH, that's what I believe! - 4:29:57 on 25 Jun 99 GMT

Marlene :DOUG- I tried communicating on one of those theology jobbers. I asked them if they had read _The Demon Haunted World_. They kept ignoring me and continued to chat among themselves about blessings etc. Nuts! A waste of grey matter! - 4:34:26 on 25 Jun 99 GMT

Marlene :Well goodnight atheists...and Ricky! - 4:35:07 on 25 Jun 99 GMT

Doug :Marlene"It's hot here in the Boston area,so I'm up late.Yes you couldn't be more correct in that the theists will ignore you.I went over to a xian site and they all asked me why I'm here.So I told them your always saying for atheists to give it a try, well here I am.All most of them want to do is jesus this or god that, and convert you.And there is always a xian going around posting those hate messages from the bible on atheist sites.Try posting a rebuttle on the xian boards; they'll go crazy and have you banned. - 6:09:38 on 25 Jun 99 GMT

Joette :MARLENE - I am not online at home anymore, and I had another friend tell me that she sent mail that wasn't returned. If you like, I have a yahoo mail account and the address is jobaby3998@yahoo.com Yes, I knew about Ludwig and his gas company woes. I have actually been following his plights since he was arrested back in the winter for sending threatening letters to an oil company. I wasn't surprised to hear what happened last weekend. He is using the whole incident as a soap box forum now. - 14:17:08 on 25 Jun 99 GMT

Carl :MARLENE/STEVEN: Last eve'I saw the E.Izzard show. I enjoyed it chuckling throughout its 90 minutes. Of the booting ever notice how when one looks up assorted political definitions to account for such actions- one interest against another, the words tend to revolve around the likes of fascism, dictator, constraints, etc.? Outside of the semantics which those chat sites like to project as an image of their minds they offer nothing of things like love and compassion and sincerity and so on. The nicer ideas\words are oddly not the kind I find myself generally looking for, after discussing and interacting w/the interests o'the religious adherents. Perhaps these religious groups ought to be taxed like regular groups of people? Religion if I understand it is supposedly something between that which one thoughtfully accepts as a creator and oneself. But, when one and another of like mind join and in so doing affect others, a system we know as 'law' must intervene for the interests of all[which is why liars are bad for the good of all]. Fascism is a word that seems to best fit the humans that compose the current religious thing that the "politicians" seem to be taking advantage of. STEVE, if the forementioned is true is the answer school vouchers? I think, that if that voucher notion goes through, religion will at first surge out to lead then it will diminsh and probably quickly, as special interests,e.g.,business, begin to establish schools that best serve "its" interests. There will be probably two ideas that will suffer, that which is the human organism and truth. Both will lose their mythical values and who can say what they will become? - 15:19:16 on 25 Jun 99 GMT

Marlene :CARL- Yup! I thought Izzard was great! I hope he does a few more specials. DOUG- It's rather cool here in Manitoba (only 16C). The good thing is that it looks like rain. We got our first rain in three weeks a few days ago but we could use more. Yellow lawns are rather unattractive. Those T-uns can sure dish out your run of the mill holy hash but seem to have a digestive problem with the healthy food for thought that we attempt to dish out. JOETTE- I'll mail you at that address! - 21:11:46 on 25 Jun 99 GMT

Ricky :not my post, never seen it, but you ath. are sure quick to jump me . Guess it's because I'm a Christian or something like that! - 23:11:34 on 25 Jun 99 GMT

Marlene :RICKY- Is this really you or an imposter. Lately the posts have been so short and defensive, they don't sound like you? If it is you, have you checked out RTL's page? I'm sure you'll agree the guy is full of hate but is using the big 10 to hide behind. - 0:55:06 on 26 Jun 99 GMT

Ricky :I'v seen some of the garbage you are talking about. It makes me sick when people use the Bible or Christianity to hide behind to defend their stupid trash. Like I'v said before, some will call themselves Christians, but have a hard time showing that they are Christians. Yea, I have been going through some dificulties lately, so excuse me if I sound a little on edge. (Thanks Marlene) - 1:12:50 on 26 Jun 99 GMT

Marlene.. :RICKY- My advice...try to see the positive in every negative situation. Every shit thing that has ever happened in my life seems to have been some kind of lesson and has made me a stronger person. What's crapping you out today maybe be the very thing you needed to go through to have a better tomorrow. Some days are diamonds, some are stone, lol! Yup! that RTL is a real piece of work! - 3:06:34 on 26 Jun 99 GMT

Doug :ALL CANADIANS:reposted:Rev. Phelps coming to Ottawa Wednesday, 23-Jun-1999 14:23:18 206.63.34.74 writes: I thought this was worth copying here... It appeared on the Godless Zone a couple days ago. Liland Rev Phelps is coming to town. My town. Monday, 21-Jun-1999 19:16:38 206.172.228.117 writes: Rev Fred Phelps, the notorious anti-gay activist, plans to visit Ottawa next week to protest a recent decision by the supreme court of Canada that struck down a law that denied spousal benefits to same-sex couples. He plans to burn a Canadian flag in front of the Supreme Court building. In a way, I'm kind of flattered that he considers Canada to be worth the trouble. He better not try it on Canada Day though. - 5:44:16 on 26 Jun 99 GMT

Marlene :DOUG- If the idiot wants to burn the Canadian flag then I suggest he does it here in Winnipeg. You'd think he would have made Winnipeg his target as we have a gay mayor here who is an activist to boot. I doubt he'd get away with it. He'd likely be driven back to the border and booted back into his own country. There was an anti-gay reverend speaking at the university here a few years ago. The students actually drove him out of town. Freedom of speech is fine but feedom to burn our flag in our country by a visitor should be a crime. He can go home, IMO or better yet, not bother coming at all. - 14:16:40 on 26 Jun 99 GMT

Doug :Marlene:Oh, I thought he'd be a guest of the Canadian government testing black flies in the arctic for blood holding capacity. - 17:10:41 on 26 Jun 99 GMT

Ricky :I think Phelps should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law if he burnes any country's flag. Acts like that is just one more way of giving Christians the wrong name and what they stand for. I'm sure there are other ways one can show their disagreement of such issues. According to the Bible, homosexuality is wrong. It could therefor can even be considered a "sin". But if it dosn't break the law, so be it. He's not the judge. We or no one else on this earth has been given athority to be that judge. So if the "rev." has a problem with this issue, let him talk, preach, hold meatings on the issue, but leave burning flags, beating up, or other criminal acts alone. - 22:10:26 on 26 Jun 99 GMT

Ricky :Marlene, thanks for the encouragement. What you said is right. We have to apply those things in our lives as lessons so that we "do" learn and become stronger by them. Just kinda feel like "my wood's wet". Got to get my fire burning again! - 22:45:00 on 26 Jun 99 GMT

Marlene :DOUG- He's invited to my neck of the woods to test our mosquitoes blood holding capacity. We have a unique species of mosquito here, we call them bull mosquitoes. Besides draining our blood they cause broken windshields, flat tires etc. - 1:55:34 on 27 Jun 99 GMT

Marlene :Winnipeg's radio talk show host, Peter Warren has flown the coop and started a nation-wide radio talk show. He interviewed the Mamie Lou Ludwig today on his show. When asked about any guns they may have had removed from their commume she refused to comment but she did have many supporters against our government and the oil companies. Scary! - 1:59:52 on 27 Jun 99 GMT

Ricky :Alright, Marlene; Never does two wrongs make a right. The "mosquito phelps" may be wrong, but give him time and his extractor will get broke! Suprises me to here you say that! - 18:24:36 on 27 Jun 99 GMT

Ricky :Alright, Marlene; Never does two wrongs make a right. The "mosquito phelps" may be wrong, but give him time and his extractor will get broke! Suprises me to here you say that! - 18:25:54 on 27 Jun 99 GMT

Doug :ricky: My reference to phelps testing black flies is a metaphor for prison.And Marlenes' statement is too I think. - 21:22:21 on 27 Jun 99 GMT

Ricky :OK, IF i TOOK YOU GUYS THE WRONG WAY, I'M SORRY. IT JUST SOUNDED A LITTLE VINDICTIVE, BROKEN WINDSHIELDS,FLAT TIRES, YOU KNOW, DON'T GET THAT IN PRISON - 22:07:08 on 27 Jun 99 GMT

Doug :ricky:In an outdoor work farm or prison logging operation the person would be plagued by insects(part of the punishment). - 23:10:43 on 27 Jun 99 GMT

Steven :DOUG/MARLENE/RICKY <<>> the mosquitoes may not be huge here, but they come in clouds. Our horse fly's are what are huge, flying baseballs i tell ya! - 12:57:31 on 28 Jun 99 GMT

Marlene :RICKY- Doug is right, the people who are in prison here do have opportunities to work on the outside in crews. This is a priviledge for them though as they aren't treated like the prison work crews in the US. In fact there are some prisoners working on the highway repairs around here right now. They are chained or there aren't guards with guns aimed at them. The only way you know that they are prisoners is by ther clothing and the prison bus. They earn about $5 per day. - 13:33:16 on 28 Jun 99 GMT

Marlene :RICKY- That should have read "aren't chained". Actually Phelps, IMO can just stay home and not bother coming to our country. I was just describing our insect live here. It sounds like Steven needs a bat in his part of the world, lol! What area are you from Ricky? - 15:09:12 on 28 Jun 99 GMT

Ricky :The great state of North Carolina USA, where a single yellow-fly can almost drag you down a lonely road for lunch if two more don't come by and drag you back. It's very nice here, good moderate temps, beautiful scenery, but we too, have big ole bugs. - 1:10:53 on 29 Jun 99 GMT

Ricky :Marlene, We have a little differant prison life for our "bad guys" They or should I say maby some, really have it made. They will get out and do some dumb crap to get right back in again. Color TV, air condition when its hot, heat when it's cool, ping pong, pool, basketball, and don't have to work on a road gang unless they desire to. Prison should be prison, a bad place to visit and a worse place to have to live. Then maybe, crime rate wouldn't be so high! - 1:23:05 on 29 Jun 99 GMT

Marlene :RICKY- I agree. There are people here that do have a better life and better living conditions in jail and do purposely break the law to get in, if only for the winter. It's sad though that people have better accomodations in jail as compared to the outside. The dumps the slum landlords rent out here are just awful. Then there are people who have too much. I was listening to a lady on the radio today who was all upset because there wasn't a limo to be had for her daughter's grad. Although, yes, this is a very special time...I would wager that some poor girl out there hasn't even got a grad dress. That limo would likely buy three dresses. People are so greedy and thoughtless sometimes. - 3:28:34 on 29 Jun 99 GMT

Ricky :Got that right. We don't know how thankful to be for what we do have until we see and experience with those who have not. I took a mission trip to Venezuela the first of the year. When I returned home, I realized I had been blessed. Didn't know just how much I took for granit Hot water, food, place to sleep at night, all the "little things" - 21:43:17 on 29 Jun 99 GMT

Grant (Just wondering) :MARLENE-- Hey, did Mr. jaywilson stop by on his way to Alaska? - 2:05:34 on 30 Jun 99 GMT

Marlene :GRANT- No! I don't think he's speaking to me since our little disagreement on "who's to blame" with the kids or was it something to do with intelligence???? Actually I don't know what he got so huffed over?!?! - 3:10:58 on 30 Jun 99 GMT

Marlene :RICKY- We are extemely fortunate to be born in non- third world countries. If it's not lack of money and food in some countries it's oppression of the people by religion. - 3:14:09 on 30 Jun 99 GMT

Joette :MARLENE - I was going to ask about jaywilson too. After his initial inquiry he never mentioned it again, and I was really hoping to actually meet a fellow MIMM'er in real life. I hope he is having a good time seeing our fair country. - 16:04:45 on 30 Jun 99 GMT

Joette :UPDATE - it seems Rev. Phelps chickened out with his plans to burn our flag on Parliament Hill. He cited "lack of firm security plans" as the reason. His daughter, who is also his lawyer, accused our illustrious RCMP of "shooting their mouths off" about something, which made me laugh. Now, if they knew anything about our culture, they would realize that we don't "shoot our mouths off" about anything, being the polite society we are, and that they must realize they weren't welcome anyway. Apparently 500 or so gay-right advocates had a rather fun rally instead. - 16:08:06 on 30 Jun 99 GMT

Ricky :Sounds like those problems are poping up all over the world. They don't seem to be in just one or two places. - 19:34:15 on 30 Jun 99 GMT