Discussion page archives

man is man-made.

Discussion Page Archives

Month of March '99

Anselm:GRANT, MARLENE AND PAPASAM: To determine whether any hypothesis is probable, scientists must compare the hypothesis with other hypotheses that are competing with it. Within all of these hypotheses there are statements of initial condition and auxillary hypotheses all of which must be assumed to be true before the scientific investigation can take place[For example, while investigating the orbit of Uranus, it was found that Uranus was not at position P2 at time T2. The prediction turned out false, but did they throw out the theory? No. After further investigation they determined that their auxilliary assumption(that there was not another planet further out that was having a gravitational effect on Uranus.) was false]. The theory was not thrown out in spite of it being falsified? Why? Because there were not any well established theories with which to replace it. The layperson usually has no idea what these statements of initial condition and auxilliary hypotheses are and so they must trust the scientific community to determine what will be presupposed in order to test a hypotheses. Due to such contingencies, as philosopher of science Peter Kosso states, "No scientific hypotheses is conclusively verified nor falsified by observation." Due to the tendency of those in this forum to leap to wild conclusions, let me affirm that I'm not saying that science is therefore useless. I'm simply attempting to understand it for what it is. The fact of the matter is that it is a method of investigation with an amalgamation of differing interpretations( Realism vs. instumentalism vs. empiricism.) and differing views with regard to what kind of knowledge science yields. Do changing theories simply represent paradigm shifts, for example. With so many schools of thought, how can one possibly maintain that science is totally objective. Are we really so gullible as to think that a hypothesis will never be tainted with a scientist's presuppositions? I would implore all of you to engage in a bit of critical thinking. - 4:36:25 on 1 Mar 99 GMT

Marlene:ANSELEM- Since the druid have reinvaded you will likely have to carry on this discussion on MIMM2. Of course scientists are subjective, they're human. That is why observation is done by more than one scientist. - 5:08:54 on 1 Mar 99 GMT

Anselm:GRANT: High degrees of probability do not entail certainty. Science is inductive and induction is built upon probability. Science, therefore is built upon probability. This is not sloppy thinking, Grant. It is a deductive argument that describes the nature of the scientific method. How can science possibly be completely objective and yield absolute certainties when so many different schools of thought exist within the scientific community? Moreover, Which science yields the most certainty? Physics? Geology? Economics? Furthermore, I never asserted that the scientific method is without merit because it does not supply us with absolute certainty. We're certainly justified in believing numerous things that cannot be known with absolute certainty. Also, can you give me an argument that reveals a self contradiction in maintaining that the future will not be like the past. Who said anything about disregarding probability? When did I assert that it's not logical to predict future events because we can only do this with probability? I'm asserting that it's illogical to affirm certainty within a method that by its very nature can only yield probabilities. If you want to dispute this, then LOGICALLY prove my argument to be fallacious. Finally, I never claimed the branch of metaphysics to be more valuable than science or vice versa. I think I made it clear that both serve a purpose. You ask if I measure the physical world with a metaphysical ruler? In other words do I measure the empirical with the invisible? Well, of course. Just as all scientists measure the world by turning pure mathematics into applied mathematics. I'm simply being mathematical, you see. - 5:15:01 on 1 Mar 99 GMT

Anselm:MARLENE: That is exactly my point. This doesn't mean it's not valuable. Let's just be straight about what it is. - 5:16:41 on 1 Mar 99 GMT

Anselm:PAPASAM: Mathematics is a science? No. Mathematics is a tool which is used by scientists. Mathematics begins within the mind of a mathematician and is only later(sometimes centuries later) applied to the real world. 2+2 will always equal 4. However, this is a truth of logic, not science. Science deals with observables. Tangibles. When is the last time you bumped into the number 5? (not the group, but the number.) As far as the affirmations of chemistry and astronomy are concerned, I would say that we're quite justified in believing them. But don't tell me you know these things with absolute certainty. If you do, I'll need to know how you define certainty. - 5:25:16 on 1 Mar 99 GMT

Doug:PapaSam: "sinners have much more fun because, only the good die young" - 5:25:32 on 1 Mar 99 GMT

sister broomhandle is very busy today, go play on the computer. - 5:29:21 on 1 Mar 99 GMT

Grant: Re the GRANT, MARLENE AND PAPASAM post:ANSELM—You seem to be attracted to extremes. I can’t speak for anyone else but I never thought (1) you were saying that science was useless (2) that science is totally objective, or (3) that a hypothesis will never be tainted with a scientist’s presuppositions. -- (1) I think that in your attempts to reconcile your religious beliefs with science, you are far more willing to discount science than to discount your religious beliefs when the two are in conflict, and that this is not an objective process for you despite possible intent. --(2) The human nature at play in religion is the same human nature at play in science. Science attempts to operate in such a way as to minimize errors in human thinking. That is its greatest strength. Religion generally doesn’t trouble itself with such things and is in fact quite happy with errors in thinking if they are beneficial to its ends, IMO. –(3) I would say that a hypothesis will nearly always be tainted with a scientist’s presuppositions. This is anticipated in the methods. - 6:52:40 on 1 Mar 99 GMT

Grant: Re the GRANT post:ANSELM—Of course science is built on probability. Who said otherwise? It seems one would have to nail your foot to the floor to talk to you. This is not what the sloppy thinking comment referred to, as you know. I did not imply nor do I believe that science is completely objective nor that it can yield absolute certainties. Why do you insist that it should?-- You say "Furthermore, I never asserted that the scientific method is without merit because it does not supply us with absolute certainty." No, you said "I simply cannot have such faith in the scientific method. Science, by its very nature can never yield certainties, only probabilities." So you’re saying it has merit but you don’t have faith in it? Sure is a roundabout way of saying it. You certainly have a hang-up about certainties. –I think I remember why I stopped talking to you last time. I think I’ll borrow JayWilson’s dagger. - 6:54:29 on 1 Mar 99 GMT

Anselm:GRANT: I have faith in science in so far as it can give us general information about the universe. Its rigor and method of investigation gives us answers that are indeed invaluable. However(and this has been my point from the very beginning), since science uses a method that yields only varying degrees of probability, I cannot have faith that it will supply us with the answers to everything concerning our origins, our meaning, our morality and our destiny. I think that it is not the job of science to provide answers to such matters of ultimates. These are philosophical, not scientific matters. So, have I made it clear where the merit begins and where it ends? There should be no conflict between science and religion so long as it is understood what purpose each is to serve. Religion is not science, and science is not religion. Both are different in their purposes. I, unlike you, am not prejudiced toward either one. Rather, I place each in its proper perspective. - 16:58:14 on 1 Mar 99 GMT

Carl:GRANT: It is quite difficult to communicate with a mind that opens and avails itself of absolutes[?] as, there is god/heaven/holy ghosts/virgin births/sons o'god/a heavenly abode/a three headed god/devils/incubi/secubi/resurrection/salvation and hells,[he ends to catch his breath]! Now tho'bred on and born of the N.Am.continent I enjoy seekin'out thinker\writers wherever else on this gas enshrouded orb. One o'the things I almost commonly see of folks, is that for their chosen "platform" they will accept only that which supports their chosen platform. ANSLEM's choice includes all those things and probably more- as some know, as stuff supportive of his choice. As you know, according to pollsters 95% of the USA go along with all or some those things. What the number might be for the scientific points of view, dare we hold that the number who accept and know science, it is low? As far as I can tell ANSELM knows the negative aspect of dialectics but doesn't go the distance veering off instead to probably rhetoric. If we yield our minds to his position I'm sure we'd all get a good dose of his gospels propaganda. I bet he could lay out a good spin on and about his religious stuff. So, if it turns out that ANSLEM continues on his present course and we or you discontinue further commmunicatio w/him, I dare say, its 'cuz he figgers he's gonna be lika'godthing in the extended life that his chosen platform has concocted for its adherents. - 17:34:22 on 1 Mar 99 GMT

Marlene...listen to yourself here!!!:ANSELM- You are not prejudice over either one? HUH? You say you have "faith", stong word here, that philosophy will answer human origin. I don't think so! Faith is again a subjective thing which I do not have in anything. - 22:10:04 on 1 Mar 99 GMT

PapaSam:Anselm. Religion is a sop for the simple minded. - 2:03:55 on 2 Mar 99 GMT

Doug:burn the bibles and pass the pencillion.Faith; horse stuff. Reason now that's the way to go. - 3:07:11 on 2 Mar 99 GMT

Grant:ANSELM-- You make the mistake of assuming that because I don't agree with you I don't understand you. I can't seem to make you understand that I am challenging your premises at their roots. - 4:24:46 on 2 Mar 99 GMT

jaywilson--celestial navigation S Us--:ANSELM: You're obviously spoiling for a fight, but you don't know why, do you? With reference to your earlier post, why don't you study the orbit of Uranus? - 12:33:02 on 2 Mar 99 GMT

Grant:CARL—It’s difficult for me to communicate with those with the common attitude that stark reality is just not sufficient for their needs and that this itself is justification for taking aboard religious type beliefs without regard to verifiability or probabilities, and that no further justification is necessary. - 14:24:53 on 2 Mar 99 GMT

Carl:GRANT: ay'matey, I guess one could just say that critters like ANSELM, figger its "their" ship, and well, they can say whatever. - 15:45:12 on 2 Mar 99 GMT

Carl:ANY: I've at times wondered, that perhaps the religously inclined assume that knowing they're alive, they've taken it to be, for the wrong end? I recall that one of my favorite lines out o'the OT, is that one of Moses askin'what the godthing was called, it says, "I am that I am". What a simple and ancient way for herdsmen to say what that other fella later said, "I think therefore I am". O'course I've always been warmed by Tarzan's line, "Me Tarzan you Jane". Anyways these prise winning lines- thoughts, have me wondering if perhaps the word "consciousness" is actually jist gettin'in the way of things? - 16:27:08 on 2 Mar 99 GMT

doug:my favorite is that god has to kill everyone in a city for the crimes of a few. Has anybody seen the movie the day the earth stood still, the alien has the power to stop all electricity but make exceptions for hospitals, flying planes,etc. Hollywood writers had much more imagination and also write better moralist storys than goat herders. - 18:34:08 on 2 Mar 99 GMT

Carl:DOUG: that flick,"The Day the Earth Stood Still" one o'my favorites, thot it was a good movie. - 18:59:46 on 2 Mar 99 GMT

Carl:DOUG, dija'know that nuclear thing, or was it some other kinda'thermo-nuclear device, that when it goes off, it would completly dusrupt all natural electrical fields and render useless all electrical gadgets? Does this mean that at least some earth things can be brought to a standstill? - 19:36:07 on 2 Mar 99 GMT

Doug:yep, A place I used to work for bought out a place that made shielding for just that. The computers and cars,tv's,washingmachines would be alright. But we would all be dead of radiation poisoning. If you set off a N bomb about 50miles up in the atmosphere it will fry anything with a electrical charge.Of course we will die of radiational poisoning. In the movie it just doesn't say what it was. - 23:02:07 on 2 Mar 99 GMT

Grant: Someone will say "ship of fools", watch:CARL-- Well they can't say whatever, at least not with impunity, not here on this ship. Look at the extreme amount of justification of science required by the Anselms of the world as compared with the paltry amount of justification they require for their supernatural beliefs if they require any at all. Just the fact that they figure science can determine nothing for certain while they can hold their religious beliefs with complete certainty is enough for me to write them off as irrational wishful thinkers and toss 'em overboard. - 15:00:41 on 3 Mar 99 GMT

Carl:DOUG: That electrical prospect appears to be an easy thing to write about, but its so farout that it is unimaginable by someone of the likes of ANSELM and others like him w/six toes. You know what I mean. As soon as one becomes available I must check out a book of Nikola Tesla to see what used to be on his mind. I have seen it written that much of his stuff, patents and such, were sucked up by the military types way back when. I bet that reading Tesla stuff must call for the use of some still, for me, unused brain connections. - 15:46:23 on 3 Mar 99 GMT

Carl:GRANT: that heave ho'action, it would of course be done for their own good. - 15:54:32 on 3 Mar 99 GMT

to Carl---don't worry Mrs. Ritter Bubba plays the hiding game - 17:33:13 on 3 Mar 99 GMT

Well I see this place has gone to --(-)whale/ shit again - 17:34:20 on 3 Mar 99 GMT

Grant Re the WIZARD post:In this animated futuristic fantasy that depicts a battle between magic and technology, a kind-hearted old sorcerer named Avatar embarks on a perilous quest into darkness to save the world from his evil brother Scortch's black magic. Created by the talented animator, Ralph Bakshi, who brought to the screen "Fritz the Cat" and "Heavy Traffic." Learn to forget - 17:38:57 on 3 Mar 99 GMT

http://www.sitepowerup.com/mb/view.asp?BoardID=100048:Bubba didn't do it. - 17:48:50 on 3 Mar 99 GMT

Smoke ~~~penis:I skullfuck you again last full moon~~~lucid dreaming - 17:50:48 on 3 Mar 99 GMT

don't thank Keith Joette:Microsoft OLE DB Provider for ODBC Drivers error '80040e14' [Microsoft][ODBC SQL Server Driver][SQL Server]Incorrect syntax near the keyword 'AND'. /user/login.asp, line 43 OH YEAH --(-)EllA I LOGIN IN YOUR SKULL. - 18:06:49 on 3 Mar 99 GMT

Carl:PAM...that heave ho'action, it would of course be done for their own good. The adherents of magickal significance of course I 'see' pehaps the better for the changeling. - 18:11:48 on 3 Mar 99 GMT

RON:TO Carl... I had a vote, myself only included, to change this website and add a password to it. Now would you like me to get rid of this website,well very lucid indeed to a logical arrogant mind. What do you mean by changeling??? As Joette I am curious. - 18:18:46 on 3 Mar 99 GMT

rOB---TO RON YOU mock of the naked. Yesss they were and perched in trees. Just curious, did you leave an egg as an offering. Learn to forget. - 18:30:34 on 3 Mar 99 GMT

Tu ere una bella frecata. Odmience. sister broomhandle is very busy today, go play on the computer. - 18:33:54 on 3 Mar 99 GMT

When I'm feeling tired She pushed food through the door And I crawl towards the crack of light Sometimes I can't find my way Newspapers spread around Soaking all that they can A cleaning is due again --a good hosing down The lady whom I feel maternal love for Cannot look me in the eyes But I see hers and they are blue And they cock and twist and masturbate I said so Nirvana Black windows of paint I scratched with my nails I see others just like me Why do they not try to escape? They bring out the older ones They point in my way They come with a flash of light And take my family away And very later I have learned to Accept some friends of ridicule My whole existence is for your amusement And that is why I'm here with you! To take you with me You're right Nirvana Joette to Lith we heard that song before. You are a druid changeling child. - 18:43:39 on 3 Mar 99 GMT

PETER:I win every time. - 18:44:26 on 3 Mar 99 GMT

Shit! I see the druid has been into meds room at the institution and swallowed a combination of "legal" susbstances. I wonder, do chemists know what they can create? - 18:45:12 on 3 Mar 99 GMT

Charles Graham:I got chased off this board also Peter for being arrogant. - 18:46:21 on 3 Mar 99 GMT

blood on the scarecrow blood on the plow to Carl---don't worry Mrs. Ritter Bubba plays the hiding game - 18:47:53 on 3 Mar 99 GMT

doug:druid; not getting any, know what i mean.the druids hand is sore from the little piccolo. - 21:12:20 on 3 Mar 99 GMT

Steven :DOUG <<>> are you saying the spammer has hairy palms? rofl! Can you imagine spending hours a day for months spamming a site, lol. It is obvious this person has no life. It is of my opionion that this person is probably a christian, and is attempting to destroy an atheist web page. Any who wish to converse without spam please come to Man is Man Made II, the link follows. - 13:54:53 on 4 Mar 99 GMT

Anselm:GRANT: Can you please explain to me the roots of my premises and how you intend to dismantle them. CARL: May I assume, Carl, that you also have a chosen platform by which you guide your thinking? Sans materialism? Sans naturalism? Sans relativism? We all have platforms. The question is, do we attempt to justify them with cogent argumentation or do we simply veer away from rational argument by making dogmatic assertions like, "Religion is a sop for the simple minded"? We are discussing the philosophy of science. Theology really hasn't entered into the discussion. But I knew you would eventually have to mention something about religion. Fascinating how the theist comes in and is content to discuss the philosophy of science while the atheist has to make statements about a "godthing" and "gospels propaganda". Interesting. Very interesting. - 18:32:44 on 4 Mar 99 GMT

Anselm:MARLENE: When did I ever state that I have faith that philosophy will give us the answers to our ultimate origins? - 18:35:46 on 4 Mar 99 GMT

Carl:ANSELM: Well, an FYI, I was pointing out certain things to GRANT. As for you, your questions have the look, that whine of the usual run of the mill young earthers Hovind type, or the mental issue of some Gishlike stereotypical xian fundy. These two folks exemplify, very well, those who in the time of their existence on this gas enshrouded orb mean but to have "their" way. Does that kind of determination include you? If negative, good we could exchange ideas on how things the all may be connected, afterall, life is connected not by a supernatural design but by kinship. - 19:42:12 on 4 Mar 99 GMT

doug:you mean that god didn't make rocks with fossils to fool us, so that if we believe in evolution he'll fry our yarballs off.I'm Free,free, free at last. DING DONG the wicked god, the wicked god,ding dong the wicked god is dead. - 0:09:28 on 5 Mar 99 GMT

Marlene..Anselm so what do you mean by this???:"However(and this has been my point from the very beginning), since science uses a method that yields only varying degrees of probability, I cannot have faith that it will supply us with the answers to everything concerning our origins, our meaning, our morality and our destiny. I think that it is not the job of science to provide answers to such matters of ultimates. These are philosophical, not scientific matters. So, have I made it clear where the merit begins and where it ends? There should be no conflict between science and religion so long as it is understood what purpose each is to serve" - 4:19:36 on 5 Mar 99 GMT

Marlene:BTW, Anselm, Carl is right. You do come across as rather Gishy. - 4:24:56 on 5 Mar 99 GMT

Marlene:ANSELM- Maybe were not communicating here properly, what is your definition of philosophy? As you may well know many so-called philosophers are actually philosophists. - 4:39:53 on 5 Mar 99 GMT

Grant:ANSELM-- I've given up, but you know, challenge and dismantle are not synonyms. - 4:40:56 on 5 Mar 99 GMT

Grant:Well hello Marlene. - 4:42:11 on 5 Mar 99 GMT

Doug:Sociobiology is going to blow you out of the water. They are going to prove biologically that ethics came before religion. Also map the human brain biochemically and geneticaly so that every thought will be interpretative and predicted.Of course those who believe will always be dogmatic just like the flat earthers in the 19th century, and the creationists in the 20th century. - 4:50:45 on 5 Mar 99 GMT

Marlene:Hi Grant! Some of us are finally on line at the same time. Hi Doug! - 4:52:12 on 5 Mar 99 GMT

Marlene..this is interesting:DOUG- I've just read something on that by Kary Mullis. I wonder if this will prove to be fact, that our "free will" is limited by our genetics??? - 4:55:15 on 5 Mar 99 GMT

Grant:MARLENE-- I think there has been lots of evidence for a long time that our free will is limited by genetics but the idea is resisted for emotional reasons. - 5:06:09 on 5 Mar 99 GMT

Marlene..where are you:ANSELM at "philosophy of science" study? It is funny how the theist comes in on the premise of discussion the "philosophy of science" (whatever you mean by that). Now just where WILL all these lead? Let we atheists hazzard a guess! - 5:11:06 on 5 Mar 99 GMT

Marlene:GRANT- Can you imagine evidence that will hold up in a court of law though?? As Doug said, actual mapping. Speaking of court, strange how the law works. One swears on a bible to tell the truth yet if one says "god told me to steal that car" the law seldom believes it. In fact the guy is likely found to be unstable. It's okay to swear to god, but not be believed that god talks back. - 5:17:21 on 5 Mar 99 GMT

Marlene:Well GOODNIGHT atheists. Gotta go read the "philosophy of science" book _In Search of the Edge of Time_. It's all about blackholes, whiteholes, wormholes and even another kind of hole, the author talks about Tipler's theories. - 5:22:13 on 5 Mar 99 GMT

Grant:MARLENE-- IMO Anselm is onto something with the philosophy of science. Just as one can't use the bible to argue the truth of the bible, one can't really use science to argue the truth of science. The reasoning one uses to justify science falls in the area of philosophy. Unfortunately as we all are tempted to do, it appears Anselm is only looking for support for his current views. rather than increased understanding. - 5:29:59 on 5 Mar 99 GMT

Grant:We got a "goodnight atheists"! It's been a long time Marlene! - 5:34:26 on 5 Mar 99 GMT

don't thank Keith Joette:Microsoft OLE DB Provider for ODBC Drivers error '80040e14' [Microsoft][ODBC SQL Server Driver][SQL Server]Incorrect syntax near the keyword 'AND'. /user/login.asp, line 43 OH YEAH --(-)EllA I LOGIN IN YOUR SKULL. - 6:43:00 on 5 Mar 99 GMT

Steven:One of the girls from the group sits on a chair in the middle of a circle of players. Another player goes around to the other participants and collects all kinds of news and gossip. She then returns to the player in the chair and tells out loud all the news and rumors she has heard. The one gossiped about chooses the most imaginative and/or funny rumor and asks the girl who made it up to take her place. She then goes around collects news and rumors about her. The game continues until all the girls have experienced wild and imaginative rumors.<<>> - 6:52:56 on 5 Mar 99 GMT

Doug:Oh, I missed you all. where do you all hide? If Anselm wants to be a philosopher I'll give him a link to all those atheists.Theists haven't come up with a new concept in philosophy in 100years.He'll just have to keep it up to date.The truth of science is mathamatics=logic at least most of the time. Remember, imagination is all in your head. - 7:01:46 on 5 Mar 99 GMT

zaum:with an actual disease of which a cure is not available but I think religion is just a symptom of that disease. For others, it may be a symptom of a disorder for which one can recover from if one so wishes. I went through clinical depression about five years ago. Once the depression started to lift, all my ailments went away. In had insomnia, chest pain, rashes etc.,even vitiligo (which I haven't recovered from) all pyschosymatic. The thing I had to change was how I dealt with stress. I think I've been succesful at that, I hope LOL! - 7:36:22 on 5 Mar 99 GMT

Joette Shit! I see the druid has been into meds room at the institution and swallowed a combination of "legal" susbstances. I wonder, do chemists know what they can create? :-->I'm so happy because today I've found my friends ... They're in my head I'm so ugly, but that's okay, cause so are you... We've broken our mirrors Sunday morning is everyday for all I care... And I'm not scared Light my candles in a daze... Cause I've found god - yeah, yeah, yeah I'm so lonely but that's okay I shaved my head... And I'm not sad And just maybe I'm to blame for all I've heard... But I'm not sure I'm so excited, I can't wait to meet you there... But I don't care I'm so horny but that's okay... My will is good - yeah, yeah, yeah I like it - I'm not gonna crack I miss you - I'm not gonna crack I love you - I'm not gonna crack I kill you - I'm not gonna crack - 7:41:37 on 5 Mar 99 GMT

Robert T Lee to Doug:http://www.sitepowerup.com/mb/view.asp?BoardID=100048Most writers will tell you the same thing: yes and no. Protagonists and other characters will reflect aspects of oneself, or ideal selves; but people are not so simple. Still, I do struggle for self-mastery, for redemption, for transcendence -- and for acceptance. There's a part of me that identifies with the criminals in the movie Heat, with Richard Stark's criminal hero Parker; there's a part of me that would like to be a cop! The object, for me, as a human being, is to develop a unified person, underlying fragmentary personality responses. Sometimes I satirize some elements of myself in some books, assuming other people have analogous absurdities in themselves. - 8:30:47 on 5 Mar 99 GMT

Grant:OdmienceWe got a "goodnight wizardsIn this animated futuristic fantasy that depicts a battle between magic and technology, a kind-hearted old sorcerer named Avatar embarks on a perilous quest into darkness to save the world from his evil brother Scortch's black magic. Created by the talented animator, Ralph Bakshi, who brought to the screen "Fritz the --(-)Cat" and "Heavy Traffic.""! It's been a long time Marlene! - 8:45:01 on 5 Mar 99 GMT

Marlene:Grant... wizard... It's been a long time. Goodnight atheists. - 8:48:09 on 5 Mar 99 GMT

rain on the scarecrow blood on the plow to Carl---don't worry Mrs. Ritter Bubba plays the hiding game - 8:49:30 on 5 Mar 99 GMT

PapaSam --get out of here and go play with the oak trees:SitePowerUP.com is dedicated to providing the best set of free tools for web sites anywhere in the world to provide interactivity for their users. All of our tools are completely automated, run 24/7, and require minimal setup on your part. Our tools are hosted on our own servers so you need no programming knowledge, no database experience, no networking expertise -- not even a grasp of HTML! Plus, our servers handle the load so your site continues to run at full speed, and you use up NO storage space or bandwidth either! Best of all, this service is free. There are no catches, no limited-time offers, no "free now, pay later" scheme -- its FREE! Not every web site qualifies to use our tools. We are only interested in appearing on sites of the highest quality so we don't accept sites with adult content, those that advocate computer piracy or "hacking", or sites that promote hatred of others based on race, religion, sexual orientation, national origin, etc. All sites that we do appear on also agree to follow and enforce an agreement we call the Rules of the Road to help ensure the content remains civil and informative. We're committed to providing the very best service and promotion for our customers. Our success is built upon the foundation of YOUR success. - 9:19:42 on 5 Mar 99 GMT

PapaSam: 9:19:42 on 5 Mar 99 GMT . That was not me but an imposter. - 9:27:58 on 5 Mar 99 GMT

Horace Pinker~~~"My thoughts exactly!" - 9:28:51 on 5 Mar 99 GMT

this --(-)monkey psi* - 9:31:13 on 5 Mar 99 GMT

this --(-)monkey psi* - 9:31:22 on 5 Mar 99 GMT

this --(-)monkey psi* :I skullfuck you and of wyobraznia - 9:39:39 on 5 Mar 99 GMT

Odmience:Oh, I missed you all. where do you all hide? If Anselm wants to be a philosopher I'll give him a link to all those atheists.Theists haven't come up with a new concept in philosophy in 100years.He'll just have to keep it up to date.The truth of science is mathamatics=logic at least most of the time. Remember, wyobraznia is all in your head. - 9:41:12 on 5 Mar 99 GMT

QUAKE:What is your purpose? All of the universe and it’s laws have a creator behind them, otherwise, everything would be by random chance. If everything was by chance, then all your thinking, moral convictions, opinions, arguments and your whole life would be without any meaning or purpose. Yet the opposite is true, and there is a creator and absolute standard for all–that is God. We see design in the universe, so there is a designer; we see order and purpose, so there is a creator to give it order and purpose. For if you look at a constructed model of the solar system you know that it was made by someone, even though you did not see the creator. You know it did not come by chance, because it has design, order and purpose. This is the same in the universe and with all of us. It is that simple! The creator of all is God; and you were made for His purpose and according to His will. Part of that purpose is to know Him, love Him and serve in His kingdom. But, since the beginning, from Adam and Eve, men have fallen from this and seek to do their own will. Now all must come into God’s salvation to know their purpose, or be separated forever in hell. No wonder we see such evil in the world for people have lost their purpose, and don’t know where they are going. They rush about trying to fill the emptiness inside with money, sex, power, material possessions, drugs, man–made religion and many other false gods. You might ask, “Why doesn’t God get rid of all the evil and suffering?”. Well, then he would have to get rid of all of us right now, because we all have done evil. But he is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish. And when there is suffering, this should force us to realize that something is wrong in the world and look to God for help. You condemn yourself Consider this, have you ever lied, even the smallest lie? If so, that makes you a liar. Have you ever stolen something, even the smallest thing? If so then you are a thief. Have you ever coveted something, or loved something more than God? If so, you are a covetous, idolater! Already, you have shown, by doing such things, that you are a lying, thieving, covetous, idolater. How will you be saved and stand before a holy God? And how will you answer for doing these evil things? What excuses can you give? If I were to go on, you would be guilty of so many other sins, as are most; and as was I. Even many of your good works, would be found to be done with selfish and impure motives. By wilfully doing evil, this shows that you are evil, and headed for hell. The point is, that if you said yes I have lied or stolen etc. then you were judging what you have done by some absolute moral law or standard that you and everyone else seems to know about and this is God’s law. You know what you should do. but don't; and so condemn yourself. For example, have you ever said to someone, “go to hell”, for doing something evil to you? Or have you ever cursed someone or called them a fool for being mean and selfish to you? Then afterwards you also lied or took something that wasn't yours; or were mean and selfish to others? People make these moral judgements and do the same evil things all the time. But when you judge others for evil and do the same things, you condemn yourself. For you are no different than them and are being hypocritical. So by saying "go to hell" to someone, you first admit that there is such a place and that you should also go there by your own judgement. The Bible says that all those who have been selfish, drunken, lie, steal, covet, fornicate, hate,or do any evil will not enter heaven unless they repent and have faith towards God. For they have broken God’s law as seen in the ten commandments, and the work of the law is written in the hearts of all men. Even lusting after a man or woman in your heart is adultery and sin, because God looks at the motives of your heart. When we sin, the light of God’s truth shines in all and convicts us of guilt in our conscience (Ephesians 5:13, Rom 1:18,19, 2:15, John 3:19-20). The law then shows us sin, breaks us and leads us to God for help. THE GOOD NEWS Unless God helps mankind there is none that can keep his law, walk perfectly, or satisfy his love and justice on their own. For since Adam, all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. Without Him not one could satisfy Him, or justify themselves. Only God could do such a thing, yet only mankind must do so, or be justly condemned. This is the dilemma. However, if someone could represent us to God and satisfy His justice and love, perhaps through him, humanity could have a chance to be saved. But no sinner could help. Men could only hope in God and His righteousness to be saved and believe in the Light they had (John 1:9 Romans 1:19 KJV). Until one man did come, who is the righteousness of God revealed to us, and that man is Jesus Christ the Son of God; he is God revealed to us in the flesh and without sin , (1 Timothy 3:16). As a man he represented us to God and died for our sins. As God He was able to do this and demonstrate his love to us. He satisfied God, kept law and gave the perfect sacrifice by giving himself and shedding his life's blood. And this is the good news to all, that "Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures" (1 Cor 15:1-5), and he was seen after his resurrection by many. Now God sees that a human being can approach him and show the greatest sacrifice, as the representative for mankind and our substitute making atonement for our sins. But he was not just any man, he is the God-man Jesus Christ. So God, in the man Jesus Christ, satisfies himself and reconciles us to himself through Christ. What glorious, wisdom! For God alone is both the just one and justifier of those who believe in Jesus. So in the cross we see the great love of God and His judgement against sin declared. There is no other way we can approach a holy God. How to be saved? You might say, “That is ok for Jesus and at least one man could approach God; but what about the rest of us and all those who have committed sin?” Salvation is by the grace of God we can’t earn it. And Jesus said, "except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God" ( John 3:3). As a sinner, when you call unto God and repent of your sins towards Him, (which is a change of mind about the way you are going) and confess and forsake your sin against God from a true and humble heart putting faith in Jesus Christ as your saviour, you are forgiven and born again. Then the Spirit of Christ comes into you and gives you life and peace; for you are now trusting in God's righteousness, and have faith, as all have done since the beginning who are saved. We are then connected in spirit to Jesus, this new man in heaven, and made the righteousness of God in Christ. It is like he is the vine and we are the branches. The bible says that we are seated together with him in heavenly places in Christ"(Eph 2:6). Now God sees a glorious man in heaven representing all those who continually abide in him by faith and we can approach God in and through Jesus Christ. We also have eternal life if we remain in him, and hope after death. So flee from the wrath to come. Turn from your sin, letting Jesus Christ be Lord of your life. Be filled with the Holy Ghost, And Read the Bible. - 13:56:55 on 5 Mar 99 GMT

Bruce:To all, the argument about meaning and purpose by QUAKE is unanswerable. It is true that if there was no absolute moral standard or God , then all our thinking and arguments would be meaningless and have no basis in reality. - 15:18:43 on 5 Mar 99 GMT

Doug:a constipation of thought and a diarrhea of words. Call fundy router that's the name, and away go creationists who are a pain. - 16:01:43 on 5 Mar 99 GMT

Doug:They really shouldn't let the patients on the computers.You can always tell when it's near medication time. - 16:08:02 on 5 Mar 99 GMT

QUAKE:Doug..I expected no answer from any atiest except personal attack. because this article i wrote is unansweracle, and you know that there is nothing you can really say about some of these clear truths - 16:34:37 on 5 Mar 99 GMT

Doug:I really take death threats seriously.You and your little tin godjesus belong in the institute for the crimially insane. ****PS that's spelled A-T-H-E-I-S-T not atiest - 17:12:39 on 5 Mar 99 GMT

Doug:Take your tin godjesus and peddle your lunacy somewhere else. - 17:26:12 on 5 Mar 99 GMT

Anselm:CARL: Well, then, I suppose that the writings of philosophers of science such as Peter Kosso and Thomas Kuhn also have the ring of "young earth, fundie" ideology? Much of my information comes from their writings. Carl, I would have hoped that you would know that labeling individuals with pejoratives is not the road to rational discussion. Obviously, you like calling names more than discussing the issues at hand. Your Ad hominems that you engage in reveal a fantastic paranoia. I'm not a fundamentalist, but why do you have this obsession with them? For the same reason you have an obsession with God talk? It is so fascinating. I could make a wager that within any conversation between an atheist and a theist, the one who will bring up religion first is bound to be the atheist. Does this not reveal something to you about your worldview? - 18:31:45 on 5 Mar 99 GMT

Anselm:MARLENE: There are many differing views amongst philosophers concerning what Philosophy is and what Philosophers do. While some would maintain that they spend their time staring blank faced at the sky(jokingly, I would hope), others would say that philosophy is a type of "meta-study". It is a field which, through logic, one can investigate the foundations which lie at the roots of other disciplines in order to see just how reasonable their presuppositions are. Philosophers investigate and question many methods of study, the truths of which many may simply take as a given. Many people do not like philosophers for this very reason. Because many people(including philosophers)hold to beliefs that they do not want challenged. When the belief is challenged, many will get angry and say things like, "Well, you're just a stupid fundamentalist", or,"Well, you're just a commie". Tis an unfortunate thing. Certainly not a way to find the truth. - 18:49:58 on 5 Mar 99 GMT

19:56:07 on 5 Mar 99 GMT

" rel="nofollow">Doug

Doug:the philosophy link is above. the site has a problem again. - 19:58:45 on 5 Mar 99 GMT

Marlene:Here we go Doug, we got it now. - 20:50:37 on 5 Mar 99 GMT

PapaSam:QUAKE. Who created your creator? For the sake of argument, let us assume your god created the earth and everything on it according to your bible. First of all, he did as piss poor job. Let us look at the physical earth. Earthquakes, volcanoes, tidal waves, and other natural disasters. Any competent engineer could design a better earth. Therefore your god was incompetent. He created people with all the faults you mentioned. Since you are so critical of his creations, I would assume you could have done a better job. I know I could have. Here again he shows his incompetence. As for his love and justice, are you referring to the flood, when he drowned every living thing except for the drunk Noah, his family and some animals? He sure showed those sinning little bastards suckling at their mothers' breasts, and the lustful little toddlers holding on to their mothers' hands. Yes sir, he sure let everyone know whp's boss! So prate on about what a great god you have. Don't forget to tell what a kind and lovinng soull his boy jesus is. If you don't believe he ia a kind and loving soul, read Luke 19:27 "And those that woud not that I reign over them,bring thither and slay them before me." Isn't that kind and lovving? - 22:28:35 on 5 Mar 99 GMT

Sympathetic Magick:because we've raised then to not believe everything they hear but to believe that which has evidence to back it up. It's a tough road out there to be an atheist since we are in the minority in North America. My husband is kind of like JayWilson, his atheism is like a dog's atheism. He doesn't discuss it much. His bible is the Hemmings Motor News, lol! Quake to Peter@@@"You are and continue to bE an Odmience!" - 23:00:07 on 5 Mar 99 GMT

modhu:Doug..I expected no answer from ab an atheist except personal attack. because this article i wrote is unansweracle, and you know that there is nothing you can really say about some of these clear truths --(-)the facts of m.valdemar - 23:13:41 on 5 Mar 99 GMT

PETER:Anselm wants to understand what he believes, and what follows is less an attempt at a proof than an attempt to spell out in conceptual terms what he believes about the god of whom his heart is full and to whom he speaks. Anselm's words are so changed with emotion, the mood of the whole passage taken in context is so poetic, and the key term of his so-called proof is so utterly vague that it seems somehow besides the point to single out his version for criticism. - 23:27:55 on 5 Mar 99 GMT

Doug:modhu; yes recovery from a lobotomy does affect your IQ just ask the the druid.He's had two ice pick lobotomys. - 23:38:20 on 5 Mar 99 GMT

PapaSam:ANSELM. Why is it necessary for you to quote others? If, as you say, you accept the conclusions of others, and they are now your own. then state them as your own. Saying "Joe Blow says in his book--" does not reinforce your argument. It only shows you are both of the same mind. When I argue with you I do so on my own. I don't look for any backing. Right or wrong, the discussion is between us - Anselm and PapaSam. Let's keep it that way. - 4:43:55 on 6 Mar 99 GMT

Marlene:ANSELM- This is my understanding of what actual philosophy is:: the study of the truth or principles of all real knowledge; study of the most general causes and principles of the universe. .....This is the philosophy that I can agree with, the key words here being "real knowledge". - 4:51:11 on 6 Mar 99 GMT

Marlene:Hi PAPASAM- What's the weather like there in New Yoike? - 4:53:29 on 6 Mar 99 GMT

PapaSam:modhu. No matter how thin you slice it, it's still boloney. Wishing won't make it so. If it gives you satisfaction to suckle on the imaginary nipple of an imaginary god, go to it. You can go arm in arm with Anselm and Quake to look for the kingdom of heaven. Just don't expect to make any converts here. - 5:06:43 on 6 Mar 99 GMT

dana:Marlene...GEREIMON = - 5:15:20 on 6 Mar 99 GMT

Larry Drake:PapaSam: Hi, climb my back anytime. rumpots - 5:18:29 on 6 Mar 99 GMT

Ricky:Papa...Chord manipulation is the real secret to getting real good on the piano! You can play a thousand scales, exercises, little songs, etc. without ever making any progress toward REAL piano playing -- the kind that satisfies you and your listeners.Odmience But there are a TON of things you can do with just one chord. And by the time you add a color tone or passing tone to it, you've got great sounds already. Add 2 or 3 more chords, and you're really cooking! Then crunch it, straddle it, 3-1 it, voice it with two hands in block chord style or locked-hands style or flowing-river-of-sound style, and you've got people sitting up and taking notice! - 5:22:12 on 6 Mar 99 GMT

Russ T Pipes modhu; yes recovery from a lobotomy does affect your IQ just ask the the druid.He's had two ice pick lobotomys:MIMM2: Atheist Message Board ---test by Russ T Pipes posted 3/5/99 2:58:49 AM Over the years, the Virtual Pet Cemetery has grown to become the world's best known and most cherished online burial ground. Thousands of visitors from all over the world come to the cemetery every day to read and share the epitaphs. All of us, at one time or another, have had a pet we loved and lost. If you wish to immortalize your beloved pet in the tombs of cyber-space for eternity, now is your chance. - 6:25:07 on 6 Mar 99 GMT

Keith~~~Simple a word I used before= but It is so fascinating. I could make a wager that within any conversation between an atheist and a theist, the one who will bring up religion first is bound to be the atheist. Does this not reveal something to you about your worldview? But Carl tells me I'm into spirits bound = what danna??? - 6:30:06 on 6 Mar 99 GMT

Piccolo: " Lost your scouter, lost your capsule, lost your King, lost your rank, lost your mission...Gee, you ain’t got much now, eh? " Smoke~~~penis next full moon I skullfuck you again --(-)EllA - 6:39:43 on 6 Mar 99 GMT

bokors:I really take death threats seriously. - 6:45:57 on 6 Mar 99 GMT

eat me:Russ penis T Pipes modhu shares lobotomy and low IQ lobotomy does affect your IQ panio playing penis druid Thousands of skullfuck bible Isn't that kind and lovving? - 6:53:42 on 6 Mar 99 GMT

Grimwood:The Druids emerged from the ancient Celtic tribes, at a time when the people had to live close to nature to survive. By the light of the storyteller's fire, and with the play of the harp, the Druids dreamed magic for their people. In the deep woods they would gather, bringing together their mysticism and philosophy, their insight and learning. Their spirit emerged from the the tides of the sea, the light of the sun, the wind in the Oak, the cry of the deer. In this way, they created an institution that inspired, frightened, and uplifted their world. The moon still dances for us now as she did then, and so the wonder of Nature remains as awesome as in those lost days. The Druids may be gone, but their magic is not. It may yet emerge from the earth again, if we remember her and love her again. - 6:59:06 on 6 Mar 99 GMT

this monkey psi*:Mangia me - 7:02:05 on 6 Mar 99 GMT

Odmience! - 7:04:21 on 6 Mar 99 GMT

lucid dreaming - 7:10:08 on 6 Mar 99 GMT

Robert T Lee:PETER.What Is an Angstrom? - 7:25:25 on 6 Mar 99 GMT

yams - 7:26:43 on 6 Mar 99 GMT

Puggles:Algol the Demon Star - 7:37:35 on 6 Mar 99 GMT

Mr.Wormly~~~ghul. Sounds Arabic. - 7:41:47 on 6 Mar 99 GMT

bokors:I really take death threats seriously. - 7:43:14 on 6 Mar 99 GMT

eat me:Russ penis T Pipes modhu shares lobotomy and low IQ lobotomy does affect your IQ panio playing penis druid Thousands of skullfuck bible Isn't that kind and tranquil?:Spank Thru This song is for lovers out there (This song I once felt) And the little light in the trees And the flowers have gingivitus And the birds fly happily We'll be together once again my love I'll get ya back, oh baby baby I can't explain just why we lost it from the start Cause living without you girl you'll only break my heart I can feel it, I can hold it Mend it (bend it), shape it, mold it I can cut it, I can taste it (paste it), spank it, beat it, masturbate it I've been looking for days now (day-glow?) Always hearing the same old City boy won't you spank thru? (city girl, be faithful) I can make it do things you wouldn't think it ever could - 8:06:47 on 6 Mar 99 GMT

the NABLA Druids spammer dreamed magic penis, I can taste it like god gingivitus boloney - 20:06:09 on 6 Mar 99 GMT

Why don't you just take that fucking magic penis of yours, wave it a few times, stick it up your ass then blow your fucking brains out! - 23:31:51 on 6 Mar 99 GMT

City boy won't you spank my druid penis and stick it up your ass then blow me - 0:08:19 on 7 Mar 99 GMT

I'm not a male you fucking asshole. Give me a truck load of explosives and I'll blow you alright you snot nosed, sniveling idiot. - 0:46:55 on 7 Mar 99 GMT

PapaSam:Marlene. The weather here has been pretty crummy. Mostly rain, a little snow, and occasional sunshine. Oh well, another couple of weeks and spring will be here and the flowers will be in bloom. Right now, the spammers are in full bloom. They need no season. Like manure in a stable, they'e always around, the difference being that manure is useful. - 0:59:29 on 7 Mar 99 GMT

Marlene:HI PAPASAM- Weather here is seasonal. Cold but the sun is warm. Yup, there isn't a more useless piece of shit in the damn universe than the spammer, I'd wager. - 2:34:10 on 7 Mar 99 GMT

Doug:Snowing through the night maybe 6-8".It's that wet heavy snow.Looks like the spammers are fighting each other. What a pleasant thought. - 5:08:04 on 7 Mar 99 GMT

PapaSam:Marlene. Ijust read the following story sent to me by email. It's titled "The Old Lady". A man spent five thousand dollars on a face lift. He went to a restaurant and ordered dinner. He asked the waiter how old he thought he looked. The waiter said "about 39." H eold the waiter "No, I'm 47," and left him a nice tip. He then went to a drug store and bought an item there and asked the clerk the same question. "About 35." Pleased, he told the clerk "No I'm 47." He then went to the corner to the bus stop and turned to see an old lady behind her, and asked her the same question. She said, "If you let me put my hand down your pants I'll tell you." He looked around and there was no one there. "OK, he said." So she put her hand down the front of his pants for about two minutes and told him "47". Amazed, he asked her how she knew. "I stood behind you in the drug store." - 5:18:10 on 7 Mar 99 GMT

Marlene:Finally- I shouldn't let this tirade go without mentioning Familiars- spirits who are in your servies at all times, rather than only when Summoned formally. One way I've heard to obtain a Familiar is to Summon a lesser spirit and strike a deal with it. But, just like I said above, that's bad news in my opinion. You really can never tell what such a Spirit's agenda might actually be. Some people make their own Familiars- which is fine IF you know how to construct an artifical spirit. - 6:52:52 on 7 Mar 99 GMT

Marlene:If the "programmer" of the computer was also the spell caster woludn't just writing the program cause sufficient guidence of the mind to focus on the spell the caster was working on (strike the word just please)??? - 6:55:27 on 7 Mar 99 GMT

Marlene sensible (s)pamming:Fama Fraternitatis of the Meritorious Order of the Rosy Cross - 7:29:02 on 7 Mar 99 GMT

PapaSam:Worm "casts" or compost will help your plants thrive by adding nutrients and humus to the soil. Sprinkle a 1/4" to 1" layer at the base of indoor or outdoor plants or blend no more than 20% worm compost into potting mix or garden soil. Digging worm compost into garden beds is another great way to use worm compost, particularly if you're adding woody compost at the same time. --(-) - 7:33:14 on 7 Mar 99 GMT

jaywilson I'm not a male you fucking asshole. Give me a truck load of explosives and I'll blow you alright you snot nosed, sniveling idiot. :Girl in "Chock Full O'Nuts": You're a cop! S.D. "--(-)Snake" Plissken: I'm an asshole... - 8:01:39 on 7 Mar 99 GMT

Steven<><><> here is the link podaj dalej:All the children playing stand in a horizontal row. In front of them is a player with a large ball who hits the ball against the wall of a house or building and calls out the name of one of the players. If the player catches the ball, they become the thrower. If not, they are out. - 8:12:34 on 7 Mar 99 GMT

.:. - 13:03:47 on 7 Mar 99 GMT

City boy won't you spank my druid penis and stick it up your ass then blow me - 19:03:21 on 7 Mar 99 GMT

porcha by modhu posted 3/5/99 2:17:25 AM .:. homeomorphiusm nechistaia sila homeomorphism - 22:18:30 on 7 Mar 99 GMT

odhum rchapo eomorphiusmhom histaianec alis stick it up your ass then blow me - 22:21:45 on 7 Mar 99 GMT

Carl:OPEN. These druids know of something. Wierd! To the contrary, said Benchmaster Dalt. We are here precisely so that identities may be authenticated and unequivocal responses be made to question of fact. You, sir, what is your name? I have used many names, Benchmaster. Under the name Lens Larque I assumed ownership of the ship Ettilia Gargantyr. During my time of ownership, I have performed no acts under the influence of malice or vindictiveness. I am innocent of the conspiracy alleged by Cooney's Bank. Against these statements I lay my great oath. - 22:28:56 on 7 Mar 99 GMT

lucid dreaming - 22:30:58 on 7 Mar 99 GMT

.:. - 13:03:47 on 7 Mar 99 GMT:City boy won't you spank my druid penis and stick it up your ass then blow me - 19:03:21 on 7 Mar 99 GMT lapatu : - 23:42:07 on 7 Mar 99 GMT

lucid dreaming - 23:42:56 on 7 Mar 99 GMT

Grant:The real meaning of OOPS - The design and construction of a brain - Simulating emotions using simple programming structures - Emotional decision making - Emotional conditioning - Feedback to change emotions - Using the techniques of genetic algorithms for training and learning.Goodnight wizards ab an atheist. - 0:02:51 on 8 Mar 99 GMT

lucid dreaming - 0:03:26 on 8 Mar 99 GMT

Marlene:Bija - 0:35:31 on 8 Mar 99 GMT

Mr.Wormly~~~http://www.sitepowerup.com/mb/view.asp?BoardID=100048 Sounds polymorphous.lapatu : - 1:04:34 on 8 Mar 99 GMT

Keri Tate:"Michael(!)" - 1:05:59 on 8 Mar 99 GMT

rumpots - 1:06:26 on 8 Mar 99 GMT

Snake" Plissken: you're an asshole. - 1:43:29 on 8 Mar 99 GMT

Druid- Why don't you be a real idiot and email your friends(lol) here - 1:44:45 on 8 Mar 99 GMT

PapaSam:All. What prompted some one to use my name to post gardening hints is beyond me. Is that a way to use up space on our atheist site? - 2:05:15 on 8 Mar 99 GMT

Marlene..hope there's no computers in Siberia:PAPASAM- You gotta admit, at least it's a little more sensible than "snake plissken" whatever the hell that's supposed to mean??? Can you imagine the frustration his parents have gone through? I've heard through the motherboards that there just may be a remedy coming unless of course someone gets so frustrated with him in his real life that they ship him off to Siberia. - 5:30:09 on 8 Mar 99 GMT

doug:hi, well it feels like siberia here it's colddddd. count the days, I can't wait till spring, both kinds. - 13:50:33 on 8 Mar 99 GMT

QUAKE:To all....so does anyone ever consider that if there was no God or absolute moral standard, then all you thinking and moral convictions and every argument against God and the truth would al be meaningless and totally pointless even to discuss? this reasoning is so powerful and unanswerable that i know others here will just resort to name calling and attacks etc. But try to answer it honestly. If you ever say to someone that is right or wrong etc, you are appealing to some absolute moral law or standard that you and everyone else should know about, that Law is from God and you know it insdie that it convicts you and all of sin. - 14:24:06 on 8 Mar 99 GMT

Marlene:Strike ONE, druid, lol! - 15:48:57 on 8 Mar 99 GMT

Carl:ANSELM, have and exercise some care, maybe whenever, attributing posts to me as my doing. There is another player herein posting things w/the pseudonym 'Carl'. As for the name calling, perhaps you were just experiencing a typical hypersensitive xtian moment, of that one post I directed "to your attention," it was not meant as a heaping of things unto you. I haven't read a lot of things done by those names you mentioned, but in time perhaps I will. Also, in time perhaps GRANTs opinon that what you seek of science is not truth for the sake of truth, but a truth that is merely supportive of your point of view, will be validated. By the way, your point of view is simply that there "is" a godthing. Where is that godthing now, as you read this? - 16:11:45 on 8 Mar 99 GMT

Carl:QUAKE, you are just a natural human organism of which for what you are, following urination you too have to shake loose the final drops. And, cuz what you promote is of such redundancy, its thoughtless, I've seen it written of the very thing of which you inscribe is actually the melding of psychological and ethical theorys. This confusion has been called a "naturalistic fallacy". Briefly its a confusion between what we in fact desire and what we should desire. Hume's injunction holds of this issue that one can never, "derive an ought from an is". Does this idea not fit, not affix itself to you in your cry "for" a godthing? - 16:40:46 on 8 Mar 99 GMT

Rob (The Patronising Saint of Cutlery):COOL DUDE QUAKEY: Ever considered using these as part of your Toronto street corner act? - 17:40:47 on 8 Mar 99 GMT

Rob (The Patronising Saint of Cutlery):COOL DUDE QUAKEY: Ever considered using these as part of your Toronto street corner act? - 17:40:53 on 8 Mar 99 GMT

Baba yaga~~~Rob Sounds tranquil. Found Nirvana yet??? - 18:06:20 on 8 Mar 99 GMT

test - 18:07:17 on 8 Mar 99 GMT

Quake:Sending spacecraft objects on a mission to another planet - Multiple instances - Putting several objects on stage - Communication between objects - Setting up a message control object - Remote control of objects - Feedback from objects and feedback control - 18:08:18 on 8 Mar 99 GMT

Steven<><><> here is the link podaj dalej:All the children playing stand in a horizontal row. In front of them is a player with a large ball who hits the ball against the wall of a house or building and calls out the name of one of the players. If the player catches the ball, they become the thrower. If not, they are out. - 18:08:50 on 8 Mar 99 GMT

Rob (The Patronising Saint of Cutlery)::The next thing we need to do is to alter Joe's emotional decision making mechanism so that it uses the conditioning 'emotions in' Joe's brain to arrive at a decision. This involves quite tricky manipulations of property lists which can drive you mad unless you get properly organized and build up the property retrieval expressions a section at a time with a test handler. Such a test handler (testing) lapatu : - 18:14:27 on 8 Mar 99 GMT

Carl:OPEN.Paradigm has thus been adopted to encapsulate the concept of the forms or patterns which can exist in an object oriented environment where objects not only have flexible boundaries, but, can also be combined in many different ways to form into any number of different virtual objects. "Morphing" or "polymorphing" is a contemporary verb which comes from the words polymorphic or polymorphous which denote that something can exist in several forms. Clearly, the terms polymorphic and paradigm have many conceptual similarities as they both refer to multiform entities. In the world of coded objects, where real existence is in the form of binary states, everything is about metaphors and paradigms. The essential difference between the two is that metaphors usually refer to fixed models or forms whereas paradigms refer to quasi states or changeable forms. Seeing objects from different paradigms, or moving between different possible patterns of objects is known as "morphing the paradigms". - 18:18:25 on 8 Mar 99 GMT

fairy gold - 18:18:51 on 8 Mar 99 GMT

Rob of the Roses metaphors :Bija - 18:19:58 on 8 Mar 99 GMT

Lith~~~You know you're gonna have another accident??? - 18:21:06 on 8 Mar 99 GMT

Robert T Lee:Object- oriented programming can also get your multimedia product to do quite sophisticated tasks and operations because the objects can be equipped with various forms of built in intelligence. For example, conversational interactions between user and computer can be tracked, analyzed, parsed and monitored to facilitate dynamically responsive behavior according to how the user responds. They borrow! I skullfuck you --(-)EllA next full moon. - 18:25:44 on 8 Mar 99 GMT

Puggles~~~As I said, its WIERD stuff, but, it has many possible applications, especially if these "brain" mechanisms are attached to databases. - 18:30:46 on 8 Mar 99 GMT

Tony~~~ Here is my email shine. Would you like some ice cream Doc. Given OOPS - 18:32:46 on 8 Mar 99 GMT

link - 18:34:25 on 8 Mar 99 GMT

pwca---lucid dreaming~~~climb my back anytime - 18:36:29 on 8 Mar 99 GMT

QUAKE:TO ALL I AM THE REAL QUAKE THE OTHER IS AN IMPOSTER i wil always glorufi God and not speak things that are not helpful here if iI can - 19:54:46 on 8 Mar 99 GMT

Marlene:QUAKE- No one knows anymore who is the imposter. Try MIMM2. - 20:48:43 on 8 Mar 99 GMT

Doug:What goes, did school let out and the cat walked over the keyboard. Let's hope the spammer has a site that WE can visit.He has to live somewhere. - 22:59:57 on 8 Mar 99 GMT

Marlene:DOUG- Ooooooo! I'd mail him everyday! I'd sign his guestbook a million times! When we eventually track him down, do you think the school will make him stand in the corner? - 23:46:59 on 8 Mar 99 GMT

Marlene..just a fancy:Anyone ever watch _The Pretender_. Maybe the poor druid is held captive at the Center and has become a victim of Reigns's shock therapy. - 23:52:04 on 8 Mar 99 GMT

Joette:MARLENE...if the spammer is who I believe it to be, maybe if we say his name constantly, and I give out his home address and telephone number, he will get paranoid and run away. Just a thought. What do you think HAMISH? - 2:02:26 on 9 Mar 99 GMT

Marlene ...HAMISH HAMISH HAMISH (has he gone yet?):JOETTE- Ahhhh! HAMISH. I had his email address at one time! I likely deleted it though. I was also thinking along the line of Farnes, remember him? Mind you he'd be really hitting me as I was on his case a lot. Grimwood still rings a few bells I think. - 4:35:32 on 9 Mar 99 GMT

trefoil - 7:39:35 on 9 Mar 99 GMT

payment - 7:39:59 on 9 Mar 99 GMT

Bill-->playing in the sandbox Entropy Gradient Reversals :The catch is that you must be very careful HOW you make you wish - 8:19:11 on 9 Mar 99 GMT

Grant:MARLENE-- JOETTE-- It'd be funny if it turned out to be someone totally unsuspected, like C. Drake. - 13:18:20 on 9 Mar 99 GMT

Marlene:GRANT- I admit, CDrake is rather wierd in his/her own way but a druid on top of it, I don't know?? - 15:03:34 on 9 Mar 99 GMT

Anselm:PETER: Thank you for the kind words. They have the appearance of a passage taken right out of the latest new age psychology manual. I'm greatly impressed with one who has such an uncanny ablity to interpret my subjective wants. Have you been reading Maslowe and Rogers? This is not a substantive way to demonstrate the vagueness of my key term. - 18:01:37 on 9 Mar 99 GMT

Anselm:CARL: No "hypersensitive xtian moment" being experienced here, my old chap. Merely observation, that's all. - 18:04:22 on 9 Mar 99 GMT

Carl:ANSELM, perhaps it was observation + interpretation= conclusion. The conclusion was yours. Its good to see that you don't fixup yourself as a sufferer, and so far you haven't tried to spill forth some guilt trip that we have step over and around. A good discussion doesn't need a creditor and a debtor you kno. - 19:21:17 on 9 Mar 99 GMT

RON...(yes, the real live RON): Friends, this site will soon die. I'm moving to Pittsburgh and will no longer reside at this web address. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE send your email addresses to terran@pdq.net so I may keep a list of our favorite contributors. James wants to create a site like this too and I will send the files to him. I apologize for not taking the time to communicate with you but, life has been hell for the last two years and I'm hoping to start fresh in Pittsburgh. This site will die within two weeks. YES, two weeks. - 5:28:09 on 11 Mar 99 GMT

Grant:RON-- Sorry things are going badly. I wish you well in Pittsburgh or wherever you go. I would like to host this page as is. Please email me- polokov@hotmail.com - 6:08:56 on 11 Mar 99 GMT

RON...--->Grant: I'm starting a new job on the 29th in Pittsburgh. It's a new beginning. I had the choice to go to several other cities around the country but decided on Pittsburgh because its only 3 hours from my daughter. I look forward to spending time with her...she's 11 now and getting ready to go into those "difficult years". - 8:36:45 on 11 Mar 99 GMT

RON...--->Grant...: Where are my manners? How are you Grant? You still dating that lovely female? What was her name? hmmmm...anyway...tell me something fresh. - 8:38:20 on 11 Mar 99 GMT

Carl:RON: just remember whatever doesn't kill ya' just makes you stronger. The passing away of this site would bring to surface a few regrets. If at all in the flurry of things over the coming weeks you can at sometime passon this very site as it is, that would be an invaluable act for free unencumbered public discussion. I myself fear that control over or overseer action of sites as this are outlined on some sheet of paper that e'en now lay on some desk. These spammers do not know of the direful things that can be done against free expression due in part to their deed of "spamming". Good luck on your journey. - 15:41:25 on 11 Mar 99 GMT

Marlene:CARL- Your so right! What doesn't kill ya will make someone stronger. - 20:58:57 on 11 Mar 99 GMT

Marlene:Okay atheists, Iknow we've been this road before but because I wasn't at the time confident (I understood), I can now say I understand entropy much better and now I'm going to try a kick at Schrodinger's cat. Anyone else (other than James and Rob) been reading up on this? - 23:20:06 on 11 Mar 99 GMT

Carl:MARLENE, I'll haveta'review, some things just don't stay with me you understand. - 23:24:28 on 11 Mar 99 GMT

Grant:RON-- I'm doing very well, thank you. I hope the lovely female of which you inquire is that one I married 14 years back. This would not be my choice of place to discuss others, not to say there are any! :-) - 4:33:49 on 12 Mar 99 GMT

Anselm:EVERYONE: I do hope that someone will host this page as is. I can quite honestly say that if it were to become defunct, I would miss it greatly. Ron, I hope all goes well with your journey. I know sometimes it's good to start afresh in new territory. Be well. Mens sana in corpore sano! - 4:45:50 on 12 Mar 99 GMT

Marlene:ANSELM- I'd hate to see it go too. I know Grant would take it over in a wink. - 5:00:35 on 12 Mar 99 GMT

Marlene:GRANT- You better hope it's her too, lol! I don't think we have any "single" people left on this discussion other than the duid, he's gotta be single! - 5:03:01 on 12 Mar 99 GMT

Joette:I was wondering what other secrets Grant has been holding out on us..;) - 5:30:25 on 12 Mar 99 GMT

Joette:Marlene....I'm single! - 5:31:20 on 12 Mar 99 GMT

RON...--->CARL...: I agree. Spammers are a bitch but so is life. Lemonade and all that. I hope to have this page running in one flavor or another soon. With it possible being in Pittsburgh Marlene will be able to connect to it faster. I'm spending my last fews days in Houston saying my "goodbyes". - 5:32:50 on 12 Mar 99 GMT

RON...--->GRANT...: (Yikes) Ooopsie. Sorry wrong person. I was thinking of the OTHER Grant, yeah, that's it. - 5:36:57 on 12 Mar 99 GMT

RON....--->TO ALL LOYAL MIMM Members...: Please send me an email to terran@pdq.net so I may notify you later when this page changes locations if not by me then by another. - 5:38:47 on 12 Mar 99 GMT

RON...--->Joette...: You're not single. - 5:41:48 on 12 Mar 99 GMT

RON...: My latest favorite web page...here you can listen to his all night radio broadcast over the net. Crazy stuff. - 5:45:10 on 12 Mar 99 GMT

Batman:James WHO? is going to take care of the page for you. - 5:54:35 on 12 Mar 99 GMT

RON...--->BATMAN...: Yes, THAT James. - 5:59:00 on 12 Mar 99 GMT

RON...--->BATMAN...: Do you like the way the page functions? Kinda cool huh? Why are you up so late? - 6:00:32 on 12 Mar 99 GMT

doug:I hope this isn't the swan song of MIMM, but the phoenix will rise again! - 7:05:31 on 12 Mar 99 GMT

GRIMWOOD.......:Stupid people talk about other people. Clever people talk about things. Brilliant people talk about ideas. Usual silly lot on this page - 12:07:23 on 12 Mar 99 GMT

Joette:Grimwood...that must be why you spend so much time here. - 12:53:06 on 12 Mar 99 GMT

Grant:GRIMWOOD-- Ironic you should choose to talk about we other people. - 14:06:46 on 12 Mar 99 GMT

Carl:RON: While I don't go with nor will I do the groupie thing, that was a bit o'bad news about Hoagland. I have seen three of his videos and one other accompaning video a fellow visiting shared. The videos have a special appeal and I enjoyed them. Have you read the book "Angels don't play this HAARP". Its a fun reading book. - 15:34:25 on 12 Mar 99 GMT

Marlene:Actually Ron, I'm closer to you now than I am to PA but connection time is likely only nano-seconds anyway. - 16:03:25 on 12 Mar 99 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- I's sorry! I better get the thought center up to date! - 16:05:23 on 12 Mar 99 GMT

Marlene:GRIMWOOD- Since your post is talking about "other people", you must be stupid. - 16:07:01 on 12 Mar 99 GMT

Marlene:RON- Art Bell! Really! Have you actually listened to some of his shows and some of his guests? - 16:09:55 on 12 Mar 99 GMT

Marlene:DOUG- I hope it's not the swan song! - 16:35:50 on 12 Mar 99 GMT

Carl:GRIMWOOD, golly you are so insightful and just loaded with humanity and a fostering kinda'love for it. How do you do it and still exist for yourself once inawhile? - 17:04:46 on 12 Mar 99 GMT

Carl:JOETTE; single? have you located or visited the auction yards yet? [said w/a smile] - 17:07:29 on 12 Mar 99 GMT

RON...--->CARL...: It will take me a few weeks to tune into you again, my friend. I'm sorry to say, for now, you're beyond me. I'll catch up. - 17:28:55 on 12 Mar 99 GMT

RON...--->MARLENE...: I have listened to Art Bell twice...when nothing entertaining was on TV. - 17:29:50 on 12 Mar 99 GMT

Marlene:RON- Bell was a guest star on Millinieum (sp) about a month and a half ago. Did you see it? As you know, I don't buy into these alien abductions or alien visits because I think although there are some strange happenings, they are terrestial but Bell goes WAY too far. - 17:33:52 on 12 Mar 99 GMT

RON....--->Doug, MARLENE...: Yes, MIMM at the location will die soon. I cannot afford to keep multiple ISP accounts in differing areas of the country. I am delaying the call to flex.net as long as I can to tell them I'm moving on and to "shut-down" this service. There are plans to bring MIMM back soon, hopefully with a fresh face and more secure features. The character "BATMAN" is a past co-worker friend of mine who is versed in web script and perl and may help me add a feature or two so I can read the address of a spammer and them keep them from posting again. A "face-lift" wouldn't hurt either. I could use a "tummy-tuck". - 17:34:54 on 12 Mar 99 GMT

RON...--->MARLENE...: I didn't see that episode, sorry. The shows I've heard are not that far out. He has a show and it seems to be making money...there lies the problem, he's entertainment, not serious scientific research. He's the "Rush Limbaugh" of UFO folklore. He did have a frightning tale the other night... - 17:38:08 on 12 Mar 99 GMT

Marlene:RON- I agree, he makes the bucks. Were you around when he pulled that hoax about him going off the air for good? - 18:11:25 on 12 Mar 99 GMT

Marlene:RON- I don't know that anyone wants this place to have a "face lift". I think we all like the easy and simple way it's set up now. Anyone else????? As for banning spammers, unfortunately I suppose that will have to be done. - 18:14:53 on 12 Mar 99 GMT

doug:Ron; how will we know the new site is up and running? should I e-mail you. - 18:38:01 on 12 Mar 99 GMT

jaywilson---hello, everybody!--:MARLENE: I'm with you; don't change a thing about this site--except perhaps the location. Tell you what, though; after quietly enduring the spam for what seems like months, I'm ready to admit openly that these juvenile jerk-off spammers _do_ piss me off, and while I'm not much into belief, I believe we deserve better than we've been getting. I also think Ralf--the creator of this place, and whom I've never met--would agree. We are a fine and interesting group of people, and I have had many moments of inspiration and camaraderie with you all here. Fuck the morons. Let's move--if it's possible. - 3:50:34 on 13 Mar 99 GMT

Raymond Smullyan:as you wish angajan - 8:57:04 on 13 Mar 99 GMT

Smoke:skullfuck the morons. - 9:10:34 on 13 Mar 99 GMT

Bill... for real..:HI RON, Others, I wish you good will in your new adventure. I still read from time to time here (too busy to write at this time), so keep me posted as to the new address of MIMM. My email address is: Send2Bill@Aol.com - 13:22:23 on 13 Mar 99 GMT

Carl:The Biafran War - 9:20:26 on 14 Mar 99 GMT

rOB~~~Joette --(-)SPECTACULAR BID, one of histories greatest race horses and a perennial leader in the New York standings. - 9:50:36 on 14 Mar 99 GMT

Grant~~~ hello to all flamer telepaths and wizards:Lleuad Draig - 19:26:29 on 14 Mar 99 GMT

RON...--->ALL...: I have given Grant permission to reconstruct MIMM at his local. He has the pieces, the understanding, and it seems the will to get it done. He has my support. - 19:41:36 on 14 Mar 99 GMT

RON...--->DOUG...: Yes, email me your address to terran@pdq.net - 19:43:07 on 14 Mar 99 GMT

Good Will Hunting:I prefer trees to concrete PapaSam. test - 19:56:34 on 14 Mar 99 GMT

PapaSam: Traditions in thought and religion can be defined as 'esoteric' in three ways : I) In a general way they can be defined as special teachings or experiences reserved for an inner circle of initiates. II) Another important perspective sees esoteric traditions as undercurrents in western thought and religion. Historically, the most important early streams here are the teachings of Pythagoras and Plato and their followers. Once dominant in Greco-Roman thought, they were pushed to the margins by the rise of Christian orthodoxy. III) A third way of seeing western esotericism looks at the heterodox, unorthodox and heretical streams which flourished beneath the domination of Christian orthodoxy and normative Judaism. - 20:58:58 on 14 Mar 99 GMT

Cugel:Photomorphosis - 21:09:45 on 14 Mar 99 GMT

PapaSam:ALL: The previous posting attributed to me was not mine. It seems like a fine bit of work. But whoever you are, please accept credit for your own creations. - 21:29:02 on 14 Mar 99 GMT

Marlene:Kibratu - 21:33:09 on 14 Mar 99 GMT

Joette:GRANT....I am delighted that you will be taking over. Hopefully you will be able to restore it to its former glory. I know we are in very capable hands now. - 22:46:27 on 14 Mar 99 GMT

Grant:JOETTE-- Thanks. I'm pretty happy about it myself. I have some learning to do but I think it will be a hoot! - 23:26:09 on 14 Mar 99 GMT

Yi Jing:My thoughts exactly. - 3:11:15 on 15 Mar 99 GMT

jaywilson to all - - (-)lemmings:Sun Tzu said: Raising a host of a hundred thousand men and engaging them in war entails heavy loss on the people and a drain on the resources. The daily expenditure will amount to a thousand ounces of silver. There will be commotion at home and abr oad, and men will drop out exhausted. Opposing forces may face each other for years, striving for the victory which may be decided in a single day. This being so, to remain in ignorance of the enemy's condition simply because one grudges the outlay of a hundred ounces of silver is the height of stupidity. One who acts thus is no leader of men, no present help to his cause, no master of victory. Thus, what enables the wise commander to strike and conquer, and achieve things beyond the reach of ordinary men, is foreknowledge. Now this foreknowledge cannot be elicited from spirits; it cannot be obtained inductively from experience, nor by any deductive calculation. Knowledge of the enemy's dispositions can only be obtained from other men. Hence the use of spies, of whom there are five classes: (1) Local spies - Having local spies means employing the services of the inhabitants of an enemy territory; (2) Moles - Having moles means making use of officials of the enemy; (3) Double agents - Ha ving double agents means getting hold of the enemy's spies and using them for our own purposes; (4) Doomed spies - Having doomed spies means doing certain things openly for purposes of deception, and allowing our spies to know of them and report them to t he enemy; (5) Surviving spies - Surviving spies means are those who bring back news from the enemy's camp. When these five kinds of spy are all at work, none can discover the secret system. This is called "divine manipulation of the threads." It is the commander's most precious faculty. Hence it is that which none in the whole army are more intimate relations to be maintained than with spies. None should be more liberally rewarded. In no other fields should greater secrecy be preserved. (1) Spies cannot be usefully employed without a certain intuitive sagacity; (2) They cannot be properly managed without benevolence and straight forwardness; (3) Without subtle ingenuity of mind, one cannot make certain of the truth of their reports; (4) Be subtle! be subtle! and use your spies for every kind of warfare; (5) If a secret piece of news is divulged by a spy before the time is ripe, he must be put to death together with the man to whom the secret was told. Whether the object be to crush an enemy, to storm a territory, or to kill an enemy general, it is always necessary to begin by finding out the names of the attendants, the aides-de-camp, and door-keepers and sentries of the general in command. Our spies m ust be commissioned to ascertain these. The enemy's spies who have come to spy on us must be sought out, tempted with bribes, led away and comfortably housed. Thus they will become double agents and available for our service. It is through the information brought by the double agent that we are able to acquire and employ local and inward spies. It is owing to his information, again, that we can cause the doomed spy to carry false tidings to the enemy. Lastly, it is by his information that the surviving spy can be used on appointed occasions. The end and aim of spying in all its five varieties is knowledge of the enemy; and this knowledge can only be derived, in the first instance, from the double agent . Hence it is essential that the double agent be treated with the utmost liberality. Hence it is only the enlightened and wise general who will use the highest intelligence of the army for purposes of spying and thereby they achieve great results. Spies are the most important asset, because on them depends an army's ability to march. - 3:17:35 on 15 Mar 99 GMT

Lith~~~ a favorite of mine also. - 3:18:34 on 15 Mar 99 GMT

David:Tbot Joette. I the correct atheist and why I stay? - 3:40:33 on 15 Mar 99 GMT

looks like someone presents challenge - 3:41:56 on 15 Mar 99 GMT

Wil:Hi, aside from these magical creeps and flame does any atheist want to discuss why God or gods suck??? - 3:59:26 on 15 Mar 99 GMT

Marlene:Larry Welcome aboard!!! Are you an atheist too??? We had another site or knot but we can talk there. - 4:01:55 on 15 Mar 99 GMT

I am atheist you fucking idiot!!! - 4:04:33 on 15 Mar 99 GMT

labels --(-)EllA - 4:05:26 on 15 Mar 99 GMT

Hamish has lost his mind. - 4:48:03 on 15 Mar 99 GMT

David:A sheet of new papyrus with the name or image of the enemy drawn or written on it in green - 5:04:03 on 15 Mar 99 GMT

rumpots - 5:04:31 on 15 Mar 99 GMT

Grant~~~ demotic magickal papyri - 5:41:29 on 15 Mar 99 GMT

Bill it is a good site -give it a try:I see we have the regulars- Grant, PapaSam, Joette, and of course our defixiones theist. Here's your Hieroglyphic translation of... hamish puts it into your skull ella: - 5:59:25 on 15 Mar 99 GMT

Lith:They borrow. Eyes - 6:05:03 on 15 Mar 99 GMT

Steven :GRANT <<>> If you gain control of this page, and you can admin the page (i.e. delete posts, ban IP's etc) then please let me know and I will shut down MIMM2. Until such time however please feel free and welcome to come to MIMM@ which is spam free, and most, if not all of the spammers have been banned. It takes all of 2 seconds to delete and ban a spammers IP on MIMM2. - 15:01:17 on 15 Mar 99 GMT

Grant:STEVEN-- Please e-mail me when you have a chance. Polokov@hotmail.com - 15:08:02 on 15 Mar 99 GMT

grant:Oops- all lowercase... polokov@hotmail.com - 15:21:08 on 15 Mar 99 GMT

Carl:ANY, sort of an interesting account of SUN TSU is this the ancient chinaman who wrote about the art of war? If yes, I've always found it interesting that war can be or could or would be set seen in the terms of it being an "art". Is this term of reference supposed to sooth the human organism in its schizophrenia state when it becomes'godlike'? I just saw again Schindlers list and wondered at seeing the above passage, whats up with that? I also looked into this site, that you may visit by o'course clicking on my pseudonym. - 16:30:02 on 15 Mar 99 GMT

Carl:ANY01, well it turns out that will just take one to a main page, so, once there look to the upper rite cornor and click on the holocaust center reference, there are some ineteresting things here. Even got to read a said account by A.Hitler about his views of things back then. War, perhaps its just some with the will to power and their chosing of a static thoughtlessness that is the power to will? - 16:37:49 on 15 Mar 99 GMT

trefoil knot:balance but not keeper - 17:53:04 on 15 Mar 99 GMT

An Open or Closed Day at Warwick gives you the chance to sample the Warwick experience for yourself. Check out the courses and social life, explore the Students' Union, and Arts Centre, and visit the departments to meet the staff who'll teach you if you decide to apply. Talk to current students and get the low-down on life at Warwick. - 18:45:05 on 15 Mar 99 GMT

Quake... Greek... Hebrew... Arabic.... 1 Alpha A 'Alef glottal stop' 'Alif ' glottal stop 2 Beta B Beyth B or V Ba B - 18:55:27 on 15 Mar 99 GMT

Wil:Hi, aside from these magical creeps and flame does any atheist want to discuss why God or gods suck??? - 3:59:26 on 15 Mar 99 GMT Marlene:Larry Welcome aboard!!! Are you an atheist too??? We had another site or knot but we can talk there. - 4:01:55 on 15 Mar 99 GMT I am atheist you fucking idiot!!! - 4:04:33 on 15 Mar 99 GMT labels --(-)EllA - 4:05:26 on 15 Mar 99 GMT Hamish has lost his mind. - 4:48:03 on 15 Mar 99 GMT - 18:57:14 on 15 Mar 99 GMT

jaywilson--ain't nothin' like the real thang, baby--:GRANT: As the late Buddy Holly sang, "Well, all right!" BTW, that last post attributed to me was not mine, although I'm a fan of Sun Tsu. - 23:17:37 on 15 Mar 99 GMT

RON...--->Grant, Steven...: I look forward to a MIMM without spammers and profanity. - 2:34:42 on 16 Mar 99 GMT

Grant:RON-- Me too. Well, profanity doesn't bother me if in good taste. :-) - 4:00:59 on 16 Mar 99 GMT

Melissa:The Druids emerged from the ancient Celtic tribes, at a time when the people had to live close to nature to survive. By the light of the storyteller's fire, and with the play of the harp, the Druids dreamed magic for their people. In the deep woods they would gather, bringing together their mysticism and philosophy, their insight and learning. Their spirit emerged from the the tides of the sea, the light of the sun, the wind in the Oak, the cry of the deer. In this way, they created an institution that inspired, frightened, and uplifted their world. The moon still dances for us now as she did then, and so the wonder of Nature remains as awesome as in those lost days. The Druids may be gone, but their magic is not. It may yet emerge from the earth again, if we remember her and love her again. - 5:43:54 on 16 Mar 99 GMT

Hammish and (s)pell chants:Gaelic Dictionaries Online Quake... Greek... Hebrew... Arabic.... 1 Alpha A 'Alef glottal (s)top' 'Alif ' glottal stop 2 Beta B Beyth B or V Ba B -I look forward to a MIMM without (s)pammers and profanity. - 5:52:11 on 16 Mar 99 GMT

This was one of the very first atheist discussion boards on the Internet. Unfortunately, it has lately been dominated by fanatical flamers calling themselves druids. For this reason a new "Man-Is-Man-Made" moderated discussion was started (below). :He cast a grim shadowThrough the busy streetSaid he was a junkie And he punctuated his walk with a gunMotiveless murderThe papers scream The cops all saidThe crowd was iced by the sight Oh baby don't it make you feel so badDark clouds are over the street After what I read, I can hardly feel my heart...My heart beat Down the subway stairsAfter him they leaptAn echo snap and scream of fire The hot pursuit was doneFor the last time he felt the light And gave up his last fightOh baby don't it make you feel so bad Dark clouds are over the streetAfter what I read, I can hardly feel my heart... My heart beat goodbye --(-)EllA. You are very intelligent but I ask you what the truth is. an experience and growth - 6:02:24 on 16 Mar 99 GMT

goodbye :Where witches went mad more than once Until this day, In dreams at least The lighthouse at Lost Christabel - 6:48:44 on 16 Mar 99 GMT

Marlene:Hello Druid, is that really you??? LOL! Main telephone to Language Centre: 01203 523462 FAX: 01203 524641 ADDRESS: University of Warwick, Language Centre, Coventry, CV4 7AL. University telephone exchange (01203) 523523 - 18:04:22 on 16 Mar 99 GMT

Adam:Great 2 B Back on the Jammie. Still alive and making fun of that pussy, god, not to be confused with the great Seussian prophet, The Cat in The Hat. Speaking of Seuss, he sayeth to those who blindly follow the bible or the koraan, etc., that they should "Think left and think right and think low and think high. Oh, the THINKS you can think up if only you try!" Oh, the Thinks You Can Think! 6:13 - 20:45:54 on 17 Mar 99 GMT

Carl:ADAM, if this is really the ADAM I think I have a cyberspace acquaintence, nice to see that you're ok. - 20:53:38 on 17 Mar 99 GMT

Marlene..The Cat creamed by Corny:ADAM- Good to see you back! BTW, Corny is celebrating to Y2K with a 1000 ears. - 21:05:57 on 17 Mar 99 GMT

Marlene..The Cat creamed by Corny:ADAM- Good to see you back! BTW, Corny is celebrating to Y2K with a 1000 ears. - 21:06:18 on 17 Mar 99 GMT

Adam *** The Cat with a Bat:Hey, Carl. Marlene, speak to me not of Corny, who is fortunate indeed to not have felt the wrath of Seuss and the Holy Green Eggs and Ham Breakfast Trilogy (the Father, the Son of Sam I Am, and the Holy Toast). For if the warning from the Cat in the 1997 New York Thanksgiving Parade was not enough, then at least heed Seuss' word: "But I've bought a big bat. I'm all ready, you see. Now my troubles are going to have troubles with ME!" I had Trouble in Getting to Solla Sollew 5:15 - 21:53:20 on 17 Mar 99 GMT

Adam TRINI LOPEZ:**** Erratum, Cat ’Em ±±±±± The above should be HOLY TRINITY, not TRILOGY. My blunders always come in threes. Guess I was smitten with thoughts literary. The Love of Seuss'll DO that to ya'. - 21:59:36 on 17 Mar 99 GMT

Joette happy to see the prodigal son:*applauding Adam* - 22:54:09 on 17 Mar 99 GMT

Mello: Mello.WHAT MADE ALL THINGS POSSIBLE ? - 12:07:55 on 18 Mar 99 GMT

Mello:WHO Belives GOD SUCKS? - 12:11:15 on 18 Mar 99 GMT

Mello: Mello.WHAT MADE ALL THINGS POSSIBLE ? - 12:14:33 on 18 Mar 99 GMT

Mello: Mello.WHAT MADE ALL THINGS POSSIBLE ? - 12:15:18 on 18 Mar 99 GMT

Mello: Mello.WHAT MADE ALL THINGS POSSIBLE ? - 12:15:19 on 18 Mar 99 GMT

Mello: Mello.WHAT MADE ALL THINGS POSSIBLE ? - 12:15:20 on 18 Mar 99 GMT

Mello: Mello.WHAT MADE ALL THINGS POSSIBLE ? - 12:15:21 on 18 Mar 99 GMT

Mello: Mello.WHAT MADE ALL THINGS POSSIBLE ? - 12:15:22 on 18 Mar 99 GMT

Mello: Mello.WHAT MADE ALL THINGS POSSIBLE ? - 12:15:23 on 18 Mar 99 GMT

Mello: Mello.WHAT MADE ALL THINGS POSSIBLE ? - 12:15:24 on 18 Mar 99 GMT

Mello: Mello.WHAT MADE ALL THINGS POSSIBLE ? - 12:15:25 on 18 Mar 99 GMT

Mello: Mello.WHAT MADE ALL THINGS POSSIBLE ? - 12:15:26 on 18 Mar 99 GMT

Mello: Mello.WHAT MADE ALL THINGS POSSIBLE ? - 12:15:27 on 18 Mar 99 GMT

Mello: Mello.WHAT MADE ALL THINGS POSSIBLE ? - 12:15:28 on 18 Mar 99 GMT

Mello: Mello.WHAT MADE ALL THINGS POSSIBLE ? - 12:15:30 on 18 Mar 99 GMT

Mello: Mello.WHAT MADE ALL THINGS POSSIBLE ? - 12:15:34 on 18 Mar 99 GMT

Mello: Mello.WHAT MADE ALL THINGS POSSIBLE ? - 12:15:35 on 18 Mar 99 GMT

Mello: Mello.WHAT MADE ALL THINGS POSSIBLE ? - 12:15:50 on 18 Mar 99 GMT

They call me mellow yellow... - 13:02:08 on 18 Mar 99 GMT

Marlene:Nothing to keep you amuzed at school? What a waste of your parent's hard earned money! - 14:54:20 on 18 Mar 99 GMT

Doug:What is he going to do when they close the site? remeber the Texas tower shootings, and the blamed marine trainning. - 16:07:58 on 18 Mar 99 GMT

Marlene:DOUG- From what I understand the idiot lives in England. Thank gawd! - 16:14:39 on 18 Mar 99 GMT

Adam TWAS the MIGHTY SEUSS **** :Hello, Mello. Obviously it was the Lord Seuss who made all things possible. As he proclaims in The Book, "Come On! Open your mouth and sound off at the sky! Shout loud at the top of your voice, 'I AM I!' ME! I am I! And I may not know why, but I know that I like it. Three Cheers! I AM I!" Happy Birthday to You! 16:9 So there, for all who would hear the Word, is the declaration of the Creator of Everything. - 20:00:14 on 18 Mar 99 GMT

Marlene ...:ADAM- Although Corny thanks Seuss, second in command, for the happy birthday, Corny says that Seuss's ash is as yella as the 2000 Ears growin in the state of Iowa!! - 21:08:22 on 18 Mar 99 GMT

Joette:MARLENE..have you been following that case is Saskatchewan regarding that 13 year old who was refusing chemotherapy? Bloody media reported it initially like the kid was some superbrain who was capable of making his own decisions...seems it was the parents who decided that prayer would work better. In this case I'm glad the courts intervened. - 23:29:53 on 18 Mar 99 GMT

yea, I have seen where the chemo was worse than the sickness. My aunt died Christman eve from cancer, she took the chemo, and maybe lived an extra two or three weeks, all in pain and suffering, I might add. I would be like him, the heck with the chemo! - 3:00:11 on 19 Mar 99 GMT

Marlene..the faith healing is stupid but..:JOETTE and the UNKNOWN POSTER--- Firstly, I understand that this boy has already been through chemo but has only gotten worse also he has already lost one leg. I think after being through it so many times and it not working he feels he may as well live what life he has left without the poisoning. Yes, I do understand his parents believe in the faith healing mumbo jumbo and maybe he'll take one last shot and try it but I truly think he's through with the chemotherapy. I again, don't think it's government's business to make this decision for him when I'm sure he's capable of making it for himself. You can imagine how much the poor kid has had to mature over the years. If I were him, I'd be like the UNKNOWN POSTER and refuse the chemo too. I've known too many people to live their last few months suffering from the chemo poisoning as well as the cancer. If there is a large percentage of hope, I would do the chemo thing, if the chances were less than 40%, I'd enjoy the life I had left. I do believe though that if the government is going to stick their nose in anything then they should force the medical profession to give more pain killers for dying cancer patients. Nothing pisses me more than a doctor telling someone they should have to put up with pain when there is absolutely not reason to. - 4:53:48 on 19 Mar 99 GMT

Marlene:THANK YOU for the card JOETTE! - 5:06:24 on 19 Mar 99 GMT

Joette:MARLENE...but the point of the court decision was that the boy was not allowed to get an informed opinion from the medical community. He hasn't had a leg amputated yet, but that's beside the point. The decision was rendered because his parents would not allow a doctor to ever speak with him, and it seems his father is a complete zealot in religious matters. So, if parents are allowed to decide that their children should die, unnecessarily, then they should be treated as murderers, IMO. Let's not forget about Robert Latimer. He was charged and convicted for taking control of his daughter's life. This case is no different. Apparently the court room in this case was reminiscent of an old time tent revival. The kid didn't know what his choices were, and it's possible if the parents didn't interfere, the cancer would be gone now. The doctors have all said that the disease is curable in this boy's case. Doctors don't normally try to keep a person alive unless there is some hope, or if the patient is old enough to make their own decision. - 13:09:17 on 19 Mar 99 GMT

Carl:CANADIANS, perhaps the gov't involves itself along the lines of 'family values'. Does the Canadian gov't also say as do USA politicians the gov't is based on family? But who knows that that word is an ol'roman word that it is a specific reference to include all those in a "man's house" such as the spouse, their offspring,the slaves and livestock. And o'course "the Man" could exercise life and death on all in "his house" as "he" so pleased. Is this the "Family value" that the herd knows? - 16:16:46 on 19 Mar 99 GMT

Joette:CARL...it is not my observation that family values play a part in politics here. In fact, usually at election time, some group will organize and have a candidate that will bring back family values. Right now in the province of Alberta, there is a huge battle going on over "same sex" couples...the government is recognizing these people as equal under the "married" clauses in such things as pensions and so on, but they are adamant that the relationships will not be recognized as marriages. - 20:38:51 on 19 Mar 99 GMT

Carl:JOETTE: to be together to mean 'marriage' and to be married to mean marriage, is this just a seduction of grammar? Is it but a game of words to get an ok for girl n'girl, boy n'boy kinda stuff? Is this an attempt to bring closer the notions of naturalism and realism? What do they want? What is wanted by whom? - 23:14:37 on 19 Mar 99 GMT

Ricky:Marlene, I finally agree with one thing you have to say about the Faith healing, being stupid, that is if you beleive in TV preachers calling people up to the front to be healed from cancer, criple limbs, and other such things. That's what gives Christinaty the "bad" name. How ever, there is a God who answers prayers! - 5:58:10 on 20 Mar 99 GMT

Marlene:RICKY- I suppose christians have different ideas of what their god can do. I wonder how many prayed in that AMTRAK crash and how many prayers were answered. - 14:21:03 on 20 Mar 99 GMT

Joette:RICKY: It isn't just TV evangelists giving Christianity a bad name. It's the attitude many have that only certain xtians will be saved, the incessant pandering for money, and the long murderous history of the religion. All in the name of something that has no evidence of existence. - 15:26:18 on 20 Mar 99 GMT

Joette:Moses and Jesus were out fishing one day. Jesus says to Moses "Hey, can you still do that trick with water?" Moses says "Gee, I'm not sure. It's been a long time" So Moses raises his arms and the sea on which they are fishing parts. After he lowers his arms and the sea returns to normal, he says to Jesus "Well, can you still walk on water?" and Jesus says "I'm not sure, but let me try it". He gets out of the boat, and takes about 4 steps and then he sinks. He eventually comes back up, gasping for air and slowly swims back to the boat and drags himself aboard. Moses says "Jesus, what happened?" and Jesus replies "I don't know. The last time I did that I didn't have these holes in my feet". - 15:30:47 on 20 Mar 99 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- HA! HA! That's a good one! - 17:01:38 on 20 Mar 99 GMT

Ricky:Joette: I would have to say I've found more evidence of creation than evolution has to offer. Think about it. Take a close look at the millions of species of insects, just the honey bee, for example. The worker will fly off and return to the hive and do a dance. This dance, depending on how far in the hive it goes, and the motion of the dance, tells the other worker bees what direction and how far they have to travel to find the flowers they are looking for. Kinda neat, isn't it. This is just one. Animals, and the ability for them to know where to feed, how to care for their young, all of this requires intelligence. Lots of intelligence. Not to mention humans. Ask yourself, how did all this splender come about? Did it just happen? To have a painting, you have to have an artist. To have a building, you have to have a construction crew. To have a garden, you have to plant a seed. To have a world as we know, wouldn't it seem logical it had to have a designer. Intelligence don't evolve from nothing. It comes from higher intelligence. People that don't believe in God are fast in saying why does God allow people to die, to get killed it stormes, trains, cars, etc. God created us and gave us rules to go by. Man broke those rules. In turn, man was cursed, or should I say, punished for his sin, his refusing to obay God. What do you do when your child don't mind you. Do you say ok, or do you punish them. It hurts to punish our children, I know, I have some of my own. It hurts God to have to punish us too. Just as you are when your child goes against your will, you still love them, as God still loves us.. That's the very reason He sent His son, Jesus, to this world, to die for our sins, so we could recieve forgivness for our wrong doing. But we have to ask for forgivness. Just as our child will tell us, I'm sorry, they may or may not do it again, but we forgive them. I could go on and on, but I won't. Just think about it! Use an open mind or it won't do any good. - 22:44:29 on 20 Mar 99 GMT

Ricky:If there was no Jesus, why do we use "ad" or "bc" to identify time. Was George Washington the president of the US. That's what they say. People wrote that in a book. But can anyone prove that old George was a president. No. We only have what someone wrote that said he was. Ginda like Jesus and the apostils, and John the Baptist, ,and Moses, David, Abraham, Noah, and the list goes on. We have to weigh the evidence. Bottom line, we have to have faith. We either have faith in what the Bible tells us, or we have to have faith in evolution. I believe George Washington was a president and I believe that Jesus was, is , and will return again to be King of Kings, and Lord of Lords. Bible said it, I believe it, and thats the bottom line! - 22:54:48 on 20 Mar 99 GMT

Ricky:Papa Sam, where are you? Havn't heard from you in a long time. How are you doing. Come on and talk to me . - 23:02:08 on 20 Mar 99 GMT

Marlene:RICKY- Who are you trying to convince? Sounds like your trying to convince yourself. As for this AD/BC thing, the jews think it's the year 5000/something. In reality for us humans it's likely one million/something, for the earth five billion/something, for the universe 15 billion something. Absolutely ridiculous that the whole western world decides dates based on one man's delusions. - 5:19:27 on 21 Mar 99 GMT

Joette:Ricky...people are using the BC thing anymore when measuring time...BC has been replaced by CE (Common Era). As far as your other post, you use examples of art needing an artist, therefore the world had to be designed by some higher intelligence. Can you answer the question as to how your god evolved from nothing? Why do you xtians believe that everything came from a god, but that the god came from nothing? It doesn't make sense. - 5:38:09 on 21 Mar 99 GMT

the previous post should read aren't instead of are... - 5:40:34 on 21 Mar 99 GMT

Doug:I think the chinese have a much different date. Do you know why it's 4697 in China and only 1999 everywhere else? It's easy! The Chinese calendar was started before ours. Nobody knows for sure, but the Chinese calendar is supposed to have been started by Ta Nao in the 27th century Before Christ. Of course, our calendar began 1,997 years ago, when Christ was born. There are other interesting differences between the Chinese calendar and ours. Their's is based on the moon and is measured in lunar years, while ours is based on the sun and is measured in solar years. All the months in the Chinese calendar have either 29 or 30 days. So every third year a whole extra month is put into the calendar, and Chinese people have a 13-month year! This one's older so jesus is a fake. - 6:02:34 on 21 Mar 99 GMT

PapaSam:Ricky. Who says god doesn't answer prayers? You wanted me to come, and here I am. God be praised. With your luck, you should buy lottery tickets. One little prayer and you'd be a millionaire. Your bible lesson to Joette was really two lessons. One was on your "God" and the second one was on your particular religion. Eirst of all,your god must have been quite a busy deity. Did he create the universe instantaneously or did he spread it out? How long did it take him to teach the busy bee to do his business? (Incidentally, the information you provided came from some biologists pen, not your bible) Did he teach the billions of different insects all at the same time or did he do them one at a time. He must have been pretty busy, considering all the varied life forms. Takes a lot of skill to program an insect egg to develope into a larva, pupa and so on. He must still be keeping tabs on all living thins because they are constantly changing (oops! I almost used the dirty word - evolving) such as the bacteria which develop resistance to antibiotics. That's enough for god. Let's get on to your religion, Christianity. Have you really read your bible? It pictures a vicious murderous god, using his so called chosen people to slaughter millions of people so that his chosen people can take over. He incites them to kill all the inhabitants, including the women and children. Oh yes, he tells them to save the virgin girls. He not only condones slavery, he tells the slaves to obey their msaster, and even gives instructions on how to divide up families when the owner sells them. He plays favorites. Don't commit adultery unless you're King David who sends Bathsheba's husband out to die on the battlefield while he's banging away with her. Incest is a no-no but Abraham is married to Sarah, his half sister. He also commits adultery with his wife's maid. God is a hard one to please. He can only find one decent family in the whole world, Noah (a drunk) and his wife and kids. So hes creates a flood, a nd drowns every living thing except for Moses and his family and a few selected animals. He drowned the old and the young. He drowned the infants suckling at their mothers' breasts, the toddles clutching their mothers' hands, and, master abortionist that he was, all the fetuses in their mothers' wombs. (I'm sure you're anti abortion, but it shows your god wasn't - if you believe your own bible.) He turns Lot's wife into a pillar of salt for turning around to look at the burning city, but later, when Lot has sex with his daughters, that was OK - no punishment. Now I guess you will say "Let's look at the New Testament Things were different with Jesus." Well, I don't want to take up too much time, so I'll just give y a few quotes by Jesus and his disciples. Jesus to his mother - John 2:-1-4. "Woman, what have I to do with thee?" Matthew 10:33-36 "Think not that I have come to send peace on earth, I come not to send peace but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against a father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law....Luke 22-36 "He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one." LUKE 19-27 "But those mine enemies which would not that I reign over them, bring thither and slay them before me." What else can you expect from a son with such a bloodthirsty father? Well Ricky, think. You want me to keep an open mind. How3 about you? Read what I have written, then re-read it, and think. How can you justify your god's actions? How can you worship a god who drowns babies, and wncourages mass murder. I look forward to your reply to my lettr. Let's have a nice discussion. - 7:55:51 on 21 Mar 99 GMT

Joette:MARLENE...did you hear the update on that boy in Saskatchewan? They sent him home from the hospital today, as the cancer has spread into his lungs, and there is nothing that can be done medically for him. Looks like the adage "nothing fails like prayer" has come true again. Bloody parents should be charged with murder. - 23:37:28 on 21 Mar 99 GMT

Ricky:PapaSam, hang in there because I have a valad answer for each of your charges. It will take me a little while to get this all wrote out, but I do want to think about it for just a little while. - 4:00:57 on 22 Mar 99 GMT

Doug:ricky this is for you:The god of Higher Education by GENERAL DEBORAH GREEN Higher Education is one of the most prevailing demigods of our time. Not only in the nation we are currently abiding in, but around the world, higher education is a god to be reckoned with. Many have come to worship the intellect and all of it's foolishness, many sacrifice great sacrifices to come and offer themselves unto this idol. And unfortunately, many, far to many, deny the call of God in order to fulfill this idol. For the most part, the institutions of higher learning, have much to-do about nothing, endless hours of mindless prattle by professors who are nothing but the messengers of Hell themselves, the dupified students are swept up into a very "unreal" reality, imagining that filling their heads with all of the fictitious knowledge of the demonic professors will somehow prepare them for the "real world" of the job market and the every day grind of occupation. Not all students attend college or university with a degree in mind, some simply come to comply with the wishes of their parents, some come to have fun, pass time, or meet that special someone (romantic). But whatever the purpose or the motivation, it is ridiculous when one realizes from a viewpoint of the Bible just how unimportant such a pursuit is to God. In the book of Jeremiah, the word of God tells us, "LEARN NOT THE WAYS OF THE HEATHEN. . . FOR THE CUSTOMS AND ORDINANCES OF THE PEOPLE ARE FALSE, EMPTY, AND FUTILE." So we see that God is not concerned at all with His people learning all of the prattle and nonsense that is passed off as education. Because a false god of education has sat on the throne for so long, men have come to believe that without education of the higher sorts that humanity is just about worthless. Nothing could be farther from the truth, for many of the social ills are birthed in the institutions of higher education as men and women attempt to play and portray themselves as gods based on their supposed higher illectual achievements and attainments. What happens often times is that because of the community spirit and seculsion of the institutions, they are able to effectuate a deep brain washing upon their subjects, tainting many for life with humanism, socialism, reverse racism, reverse sexism, etc. And so, the dupes with degrees go forth into the mainstreams of societies, infecting them with the destructive doctrines instilled in them by the demons (professors). Then, new ideologies emerge and new belief systems come forth and whole nations are formed by the crafty children of Satan who bear the titles of Dr. and professor. When professing Christians and Christian parents will sacrifice anything and everything to place their sacrifice before the idols of Baal (higher education) they are in direct opposition to the command of the scriptures which is given to us in Micah 6:8 "HE HATH SHEWED THEE, O MAN, WHAT IS GOOD; AND WHAT DOTH THE LORD REQUIRE OF THEE, BUT TO DO JUSTLY, AND TO LOVE MERCY, AND TO WALK HUMBLY WITH THY GOD?" God Almighty has never asked his people to get puffed up in their fleshly minds through the learning of nonsense, prattle, foolishness and emptiness. Yet so many, deceived by the god of the world (Satan) believe they must educate their children at any cost, and if their children do not come out with a degree, then they have failed as parents. Nothing could be farther from the truth in reference to the Christian standard. Far too many children have lost their morals, their integrity, their honesty, and their sense at the institutions of "higher learning". When one really stops and thinks about it, there is no higher learning in time and eternity than to learn to know God and to learn His ways, His standards, His character. What is higher about an endless stream of boring garble issued by demonic men and women who claim to somehow be superior because they live in an unreal reality, supposedly training up and preparing the youth for reality? When Christians make great and terrifying sacrifices to lay their children at the altar of the IDOL OF HIGHER EDUCATION, THEY HAVE DONE A GREAT DISSERVICE TO GOD ALMIGHTY. How many of these same parents would go to no end to sacrifice in order to send their children forth into the world as missionaries? Yet, the command of Jesus to all believers was, "GO YE THEREFORE AND TEACH ALL NATIONS. . .TEACHING THEM TO OBSERVE ALL THINGS WHATSOEVER I HAVE COMMANDED YOU." "AND NOW, ISRAEL, WHAT DOES THE LORD YOUR GOD REQUIRE OF YOU BUT (REVERENTLY) TO FEAR THE LORD YOUR GOD (THAT IS) TO WALK IN ALL HIS WAYS AND TO LOVE HIM, AND TO SERVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR MIND AND HEART AND WITH YOUR ENTIRE BEING, TO KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS OF THE LORD, AND HIS STATUTES WHICH I COMMAND YOU TODAY FOR YOUR GOOD?" Deuteronomy 10:12 Let us notice that the Lord does not require us to get a college or university degree, but that He commands us to walk in the fear of Him and to keep His ways and love Him and serve Him with all of our minds, hearts, and our entire beings. God's Word also tells us that knowledge puffs up but the spirit gives life, so when the people of God pursue the knowledge of the world, they are pursuing death and they bring forth nothing fit for the kingdom of God. When we truly love God we will keep His commandments and we will not fret ourselves about putting on a vain show to be seen of men and applauded because of our degrees of demons. No, indeed, when we love the Lord, we will walk in the awesome fear of Him and we will seek to please Him and Him alone. If those who profess that they love God would expend the same time, money, and energy that they have erroneously put into higher education, for the King and His Kingdom, we would see a better world, and men and women would be brought to the highest education all, the learning that comes from the HOLY GHOST GIVEN BY GOD TO LEAD AND GUIDE US INTO ALL TRUTH. If men and women would become radicals for God, we would see a new world order come in and we would see the reign of His peace in the earth. If the educated would see themselves as the fools they really are and humble themselves before the Living God, there would be nothing that could come forth but His righteousness and His standard. How seriously do we take the command of Jesus to go into all the world and teach the things He has taught? We are not to go into the world and teach the vain philosophies of men, but we are commanded to take forth His teachings throughout the earth. He says that if we love Him we will keep His commandments, we will not disobey the Lord and then seek to please ourselves and others through our vain learning of foolishness. When we obey the Lord at His commands and do not look for ways to "do it our way" then do we find His power, glory, and anointing are over us and that we can give forth His truth and His light unto the blinded who are perishing. Let us seek for His Kingdom and not the kingdom of carnality. As believers, we do not need higher education given by the world, but we need to receive the education of the Holy Ghost which is our guide, then we need to share what we have learned with others. We do not learn of God just so that we may have blessed and comfortable lives, but that we can give Him away to others who are needy, wretched, blind, and sorrowful. When you stop and consider the purpose of the world's "higher education" most often the purpose is the furtherance of selfish desires and greedy ambitions, but the opposite is true in Christ Jesus. For, the more we learn of Him, the more we must become unselfish and learn to love as He has loved us. It is a privilege to learn in the school of the Holy Ghost and to obtain the knowledge which shall remain beyond time, beyond nations, beyond personal securities, for the knowledge of God far surpasses the foolishness of men and remains. If as a Christian, you are considering a higher education in the world's system, seriously take that before God, because you will waste time, money, and energy to learn the ways of the heathen. Better to put yourself before God as a living sacrifice and let Him teach you that you could go forth in obedience to His command, taking the gospel into all nations. And, if you are a Christian parent, planning to send your child into the jaws of Baal to be devoured, you should reconsider that decision tainted by worldly amibitions, and dedicate the child again to the Lord and be willing to support the child to do missions work to proclaim Jesus Christ as King. All of the learning of men shall count as nothing before God! Do not waste time learning or paying for the learning of nonsense, but take seriously the commission given and do your part to fulfill it. "For the weapons of our warfare are not physical (weapons of flesh and blood), but they are mighty before God for the overthrow and destruction of strongholds, [Inasmuch as we] refute arguments and theories and reasonings and every proud and lofty thing that sets itself up against the (true) knowledge of God; and we lead every thought and purpose away captive into the obedience of Christ, the Messian, the Anointed One..." 2 Cor. 10:4-5 Amplified "As for myself, brethren, when I cam to you I did not come proclaiming to you the testimony and evidence or mystery or secret of God [concerning what He has done through Christ for the salvation of men] in lofty words of eloquence or human philosophy and wisdom; for I resolved to know nothing -to be acquainted with [nothing], to make a display of the knowledge of [nothing], and to be conscious of [nothing]- among you except Jesus Christ, the Messiah, and Him crucified." 1 Cor. 2:1-2 Amplified We would like to hear from you! To request literature or more information about us or our community please E-mail us: prophet@cibola.net or write to us: AGGRESSIVE CHRISTIANITY P.O. BOX 90 BERINO, NM 88024 wow i want to be a stupid xian too. - 4:26:58 on 22 Mar 99 GMT

ricky:Papa Sam, you wanted a response, so here it is. God doesn't play favorites, but He answers the call of His children. You mention the Old Testament Wrath of God. Yes my God is a vengeful God. He even speaks so himself. Our God is a jealous God. He abhors those who speak out against His word and does not do what He says. Ok, I know that you want an answer to each of the charges given to me. So here they are. Be patient, because I want you to read it all. First, you mention God using His chosen people to slaughter millions. Now I don't know if millions of people is an appropriate number, but for the sake of argument, lets say that it was. War is not something that pleases God. God does not like seeing people die. That's why He sent His Son, so that we might not die. But God is not going to sit there and watch his children die. He is going to intervene and protect them, as long as they continue to serve him. Why would a nation fight a war and not destroy the opposing nation? Of course they are going to attack and destroy women and children, they and their offspring are a threat for retaliation if they don't. The father saves the virgin girls because if they have children, the children would also be Israelites. They would not be a threat against God's people, unless they rose up against their home country in which they would not be able to gain enough support to be victorious. Again, your charge with slavery is not something that God instituted. But God has also instituted a law that says to honor the laws of man. If there is going to be slavery, God wants us to do it properly. He not only gives rules about slavery, but he tells the slave owners how to treat them. He does not allow the abusive treatment that we think of when we think about slavery. God frowns on that. Your charge against adultery is completely inaccurate. David was not pardoned from adultery and murder. Have you not read about the curse that was placed on David's family after that? His children died. His kingdom was weakened. In fact, David was allowed to remain as king, but God did not bless his kingship anymore and the kingdom was shaken. Abraham was married to his half-sister. But why are incest relationships wrong? The answer is because of genetic mutations. In an atheist chat room, you must be familiar with those. That is your claim to evolution is genetic mutations. In the early Biblical days, these gene mutations were not yet harmful. God knew this and so he allowed it then. Again, he wasn't happy, but he allowed it to happen. He did not commit adultery, because his wife told him to sleep with her maid. It was an embarrassment to not have a son much less not to have any children at all. Sarah wanted to be a mother, so they used a process used today by having a surrogate mother. Again, God was displeased, but God not to break a promise, blesses Abraham with a son anyway. Noah was the only man whose family served the Lord. You want to say, "no one else was given an opportunity." Never mind that it took Noah 400 years to build the ark and he not only built it, but he preached to the people to join him or perish. Not one single person decided to follow him. Word had to have spread through the land of this man, and if there were any righteous and God-fearing, they would have accepted this proposal. Noah was drunk, and his daughters did sleep with him, but was God pleased? Again the answer is no. Noah sinned and became drunk. He passed out and had no knowledge of what his daughters were doing. But upon learning what they had done, Noah was embarrassed and God was displeased. This should be a testimony of why you shouldn't drink. And by the way, he saved Noah and his family, not Moses. You erred, which shows your human. God did destroy the entire world. He did murder all but one family, but it upset God that they had become so evil. No one likes to destroy what he creates. God used the flood to wipe out all the unrighteous; who did not fear him. He did it once and knew he would have to do it again. But the world had become so wicked, that God knew where it was headed and started over. He drowned the old and the young, just as you said. God killed every man, woman and child. He even killed the unborn as you said, that was correct. But abortion is the murder of just the baby. God was ridding the world of all evil. He knew that the babies could not live in an evil world, or they too would be corrupted. He could not kill the mother and let the babies live because they would die with no one to raise them. If they are going to die that's the best way. It's God's way. Lot's wife looked back at the burning city and was turned to a pillar of salt. She was told "do NOT look back" God had already been patient with Lot and allowed him to enter a local city and be saved, but God would not show mercy if they broke a direct command of His. Lot's wife looked back and was instantly killed. She had a lack of faith and wanted to see all the things she loved about a sinful city and God's anger and wrath brought death upon her instantly. Lot's daughters plotted to get their father drunk. They waited for Lot to become drunk and have sexual relations with him. Who are we to say that they were not punished? The Bible does not give details about every punishment. But the Bible does indicate that we are to live by his rules, or death will occur. Not physical death, but spiritual death. Their sins will be brought up on Judgment Day. For the reason of time, I cannot answer your NT charges right now. But I hope that you have learned that God does everything for a reason. Everything He does is for a purpose and can be justified. Believe it if you want, but if you don't… you can't use the excuse that no one warned you. - 4:56:44 on 22 Mar 99 GMT

Doug:lobotomys for christ Yes, you can step this way for your free lobotomy for christ.Or you can wait for the MLU to visit your city or town.(Mobile Lobotomy Unit) One little ice pick will do ya. - 6:20:25 on 22 Mar 99 GMT

Steven :RICKY <<>> you have done nothing but absolutly substantiate everything that we and PapaSam have been posting. You waste your energy and faith on the bloodiest death god in history, and he doesnt even exist. There is no proof that one single thing in the bible ever happend. If any sane person would read your post they would be appalled and disgusted, for it is filthy murderous drivel. It is people of your nature that have found it acceptable to slaughter people because of their belief of non-belief in your delusion. You are brainwashed to a point that the killing of a non-believer is acceptable because a book tells you too. If there is a defintion of evil per say, you and yours fit the mold far more than any atheist I have ever know. - 14:40:18 on 22 Mar 99 GMT

http://www.maj.com/sun/images/status.gif - 17:05:51 on 22 Mar 99 GMT

Carl:RICKY, while your word loaded post has appearances that may impress some, you as the author seem to take certain words or expressions as a given point. By this I mean that it looks as if "you" have assumed that certain words\ideas are substantially meaningful. One such word/idea is, spirit. So that you don't assume and contend erroneously, you ought not offend the fallacy of, begging the question. So, spirit- what is that? - 17:17:19 on 22 Mar 99 GMT

Carl:OPEN, so who knows about other dimensions? other universes? the wormholes? string theory? interstellar travel? resonances? This is fun stuff and certainly not xtian stuff. - 17:56:43 on 22 Mar 99 GMT

Marlene:CARL- I'm just reading on that! I'm reading _In Search of the Edge of Time_ by John Gribbin. It's not xtian stuff by any means but some new age nuts are using it for their beliefs, mainly because there is a lot of speculation about such things. Time, of course, is the fourth dimension. The only problems I have with the speculations is on this dimension. Lots of paradoxes there. - 18:32:05 on 22 Mar 99 GMT

Carl:MARLENE, this topic must fall in line w/ROB's views that go along with that radio guy. You've menioned that name a time or two. I'm reading Michio Kaku's "Hyperspace". I just started it but thru ch.1, the explanations are clear and simple. An early problem I have, it paints the reader into a cornor and thereafter it seems to call for the impossible. Leaves me seeing it as just another xtian mind at work, ask of the impossible and the response must likewise be an impossibility. - 18:42:23 on 22 Mar 99 GMT

Marlene:CARL- Do you mean Art Bell? The guy obviously stirs the pot for ratings. If it's not aliens, it's Hopi medicine man stuff or government conspiracy stuff. He gets the calls and that's what he wants. If he believes this stuff???? I doubt it. - 19:28:20 on 22 Mar 99 GMT

Carl:MARLENE, thats the name. So A.Bell is just a showman, I can see that. You kno'what since being around all you I've since come to the point where I think science and religion could be seen as the antipodes and the only difference between both, the only thing that makes a difference are those folks that are thinker/writers. This point o'view is only an explanation maybe the only way to see the a/theism contest in an orderly way. If you get a chance you oughta'check some o'the articles at this site, for at least/best some of the supporting doc's the article author points to. The religious mind of which the RICKY exemplfies is a most frightful thing. Check out Christian Identity, if you have not already done so. - 20:02:20 on 22 Mar 99 GMT

Carl:CURSES, when you get the UTL mssg.go into the address field and type in an "e" at -mpr"e"viss.htm?- etc. that will land you in the articles area. My error - 20:07:26 on 22 Mar 99 GMT

Marlene:CARL- Hey! Don't get me wrong. I love science and science fiction. One just has to separate the fact from the fiction. Without science, we'd be nowhere. It's philosophy I have a problem with or I should say some of it. It like science it can be pseudo. - 21:46:42 on 22 Mar 99 GMT

Carl:MARLENE, Hmm? Do you think that perhaps that is what the unified field thing is its more inclined to philosophy than it is to science? I missed that, but whatta'hey! - 22:15:54 on 22 Mar 99 GMT

Travis:Steven, you say that I can't prove anything that happened in the Bible... Can you prove that Karl Marx existed? Can you prove that Hiroshima was bombed in WWII? Can you prove that Cleopatra was the queen of Egypt? Can you prove that Alexander the Great really conquered the Mediterranian? You see you can't prove these things except when you read about them in the History books. With Easter Sunday being just around the corner, let me say this. Jesus died on the cross. But he also rose from the dead. No history scholar will refute the fact that Jesus was crucified. The records that were kept by the Romans show it. Generations talked about it. The Scriptures show it. How can we say that Jesus never existed? The records of history show it. Jesus died on the cross. That is a fact. You can dispute the fact that he rose from the dead, but I can give you some evidence for that too. If he did not raise from the dead, where is his body? Why couldn't the Romans just simply show the body to prove to all those who accepted the resurrection as truth. That would have shut them up. If it was true that Jesus never died on the cross, he would have died at a later date and still no body. Jesus was one of the most well known teachers of that day and he could not have just vanished without a trace if he was still alive. Why would the disciples of Jesus willingly die a martyr for a lie? If it was all a hoax, would they have just died for nothing? The answers are all simple. Jesus lives. As far as other things to prove the Bible.... achaeological digs are still finding things today to fit exactly what the scriptures said. No man would have known that if it were written as a fictional story. Christianity is not a hoax. It is not a lie. Christianity is proven all over the world at all times, and if you just take the time to look for it, you will see it. You may argue to me that you can see evolution around, but everything that can be proven, which you claim to be evolution fits the mold of Christianity. God reigns, God loves, and God will pay back those who don't trust in him. If I'm wrong, what do I lose? Nothing. But if you are wrong, what do you lose? I don't even want to begin to think about an eternity away from the Loving Father. - 23:33:46 on 22 Mar 99 GMT

Joette:TRAVIS: There are those that say the Loch Ness Monster and Bigfoot are real too. Does this mean they exist? - 0:58:08 on 23 Mar 99 GMT

Grant:YA'LL-- The board is now up and working at the new location. As soon as the domain name registration is approved we're in business. BTW, We now have the means to not only block the garbage posters, but to go after them, which we will do. It's a free speech matter. At issue is OUR free speech. - 1:10:56 on 23 Mar 99 GMT

Anselm:It astounds me to no end everytime I witness an atheist speaking as though there were such things as absolute moral laws. You want to absolutize morals long enough to voice your displeasure with what God has done as if you have some sort of a rational foundation for ethics. You do not. Your worldview makes man the measure of all things. You want to assume the reality of objective moral values and then after you've presented your argument, you retreat back to moral conventionalism. Papasam and Steven, are the two of you positing a moral law that governs the lives of humanity? If you answer in the affirmative, I want to know how you, as atheists, justify rationally. If your answer is no, then I want to know by what standard you judge God as being evil. - 1:22:02 on 23 Mar 99 GMT

Travis:Joette, the Loch Ness Monster is a proven hoax. As far as the legend of Bigfoot, it's just a legend. Before you tell me that they are real, give me documentation that it exists, other than the lunacy of those claiming to have something. This Jesus of Nazareth, without money or arms, conquered more millions than Alexander, Caesar, Mohammed, and Napoleon; without science and learning he shed more light on matter human and divine than all philosophers and scholars combined; without the eloquence of schools; he spoke such words of life as were never spoken before or since and produced effects which lie beyond the reach of orator or poet; without writing a single line, he set more pens in motion, and furnished themes for more sermons, orations, discussions, learned volumes, works of art, and songs of praise than the whole army of great men of ancient and modern times. - 2:29:28 on 23 Mar 99 GMT

Ricky:Hay, PapaSam: I hope my answers to your questions were understandable. Do you have any better understanding of "killing-unloving" God we were talking about? - 3:02:45 on 23 Mar 99 GMT

Ricky:Amselm: I think you hit the nail on the head. - 4:48:04 on 23 Mar 99 GMT

Marlene:GRANT -Yee Hah! - 4:55:39 on 23 Mar 99 GMT

PapaSam:Ricki. You agree on all the things I have accused your biblical god of having done. The only thing separating us is the fact that you attempt to justify his actions. Let's get one thing straight. Do you believe your god is all powerful and all knowing? I assume you do. Correct me if I'm wrong. You approve of your god's killing women and children as a preventive measure. Would it have been OK for enemy soldiers to kill yoor mother. Your god doesn't like adultery, but overlooks it. Who's the boss? An all powerful god should be able to prevent it. Your god makes rules but doesn't enforce them. Why bother making rules? Nothing wrong with Abraham having incestuous relations with his sister because of the gene situation. They didn't have to worry about screwed up offspring. With today's birth control methods we don't have to worry about that either. Does that make it OK to have sex with your sister? "He (Abraham) did not commit adultery because his wife told him to sleep with her maid." Adultery is still adultery whether your spouse approves or not." You keep repeating over and over "God was displeased" but he never does anything to stop all the bullshit. I ask again, "Is your god all powerful or not? Who's the boss? To summarize, what I learned from your would be rebuttal is worthless. It is a continual attempt to make excuses for your god of the bible. In short, your alleged god is either able to prevent evil and doesn't want to, or he wants to prevent evil and is unable to do so. In either case, he's not worth a shit. So, what are you going to tell me in your next leter, that he is worth a shit? I look forward to your reply. - 5:08:35 on 23 Mar 99 GMT

PapaSan:Travis. 'Without science and learning he shed more light on matters human and divine than all scholars and philosophers combined----" First of all, let's eliminate the "divine" from your statement. I recognize no such concept. Your hyperbole is impressive for its loquacity, but wanting in its content.So what light did he shed on matters human? Next, "He spoke such words of life as were never spoken before or since----" Well, let me give you a few quotes with which you may not be familiar. They are in your bible. Look the up. Luke 19-27 "But those mine enemies which would not that I should reign over them, bring thither and slay them before me." Matthew 10-33-36: Think not thatI am come to send peace on earth. I come not to send peace but a sword. For I am come to set man at variance against a father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.." Luke 22-36 "He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one." Well Travis, have you read these little gems of Jesus before? Does he still seem like a good role model? Let me know. - 6:11:57 on 23 Mar 99 GMT

Joette:TRAVIS...if the Loch Ness Monster has been a proven hoax, why are some people still looking for it? And what is this "legend" surrounging Bigfoot? It seems in your response you are saying the same thing about you god. Is your religion not a huge cult based on a legend? - 13:32:58 on 23 Mar 99 GMT

Joette:GRANT - looking forward to your new work of art. - 13:34:11 on 23 Mar 99 GMT

Steven :TRAVIS <<>> unfortunatly you have also fallen into the christian virus mental trap. "Well, if the bible says its so, then it must be". You are also quit mistaken concerning historical records. The only historical document of a man named Jesus was by a man called Josephus about 100 yrs after the supposed death of Jesus. Most historians agree that the texts were fake. The bible is no where close to being a history book, it was concieved almost 400-450 yrs after the once again supposed death of jesu and has been changed, and rewritten more times than you could imagine. The bible you put your faith in is not even close to the original. You see, christians have to change with time, and their bible must reflect this. The facts are that there is no proof of the existence of the myth jesus or your god. Gods are an invention that has come back to do more harm to humanity than good. You should also check into all of the myths that christianity and judaism ripped off to create their own. Especially christianity. The virgin birth, the cross, etc. etc. all were taken from current pagan religions of the time period like mithra. You belong to a cult accept it, deal with it. - 13:59:47 on 23 Mar 99 GMT

Steven :ANSELM <<>> I do not say your god is evil, because it is my belief that he/she/it is a figment of your imagination, a delusion if you will. I will say that the bible could be considered so because of the overall negative effect that it has had on humanity in general. You see it gives man an excuse to be barbaric and cruel, even murderous, then simply ask for forgivness and all guilt can be rid of. If I do something bad, I need only ask for forgivness, hence a loop. There is nothing in this loop that puts the consequences of a good or negative action on the back of the person whom committed the deed, only on the back of their mythical god. If a christian does something good, he/she thanks god for the blessing, instead of being proud of a personal accomplishment. If a christian goes out and kill someone for money, they need simply ask for forgivness and all guilt for the murder is gone. Then the loop continues. This is how millions of Native Americans were slaughtered with little or no outrage, other than from the natives. Your bible allowed man, through belief to be so horrible that they created a thing called the 'inquisition'. The fanatic christian soldier everyone know well. We can talk all day about how many witches and heretics were put to death. Or how the Catholic and Protestant churches have warred for hundreds of years. Your god is not evil, for he is a myth. Your bible is dangerous for many obvious reasons. - 14:14:18 on 23 Mar 99 GMT

Carl:GRANT&et.al: If one's mind is the interpretation of the brainware and emotion- as in out+to move, it's a very sad and regrettable state, if and when one opts to "adhere" the infinitness that is one's mind to an idea like religion. Here must be that thing of recognition, as said of by the likes of Robert Ingersol who said, as have some others, religion is devisive for it rends apart humanity. ANSELM apparently holds that morals are outside and "from" something else. That something else 'gives' that moral thing to the human organism. However, if something is not already in you and its given to you, that makes it a hand-me-down, as in something used before. That would make a godthing's giving of 'morals' to the human organism, an immorality. So if this is on target it must follow that only the human organism with its mind, as described, only it- the human organism, can be moral. So again, if only the human creature is moral, the saddness of having to now hold a means to block out others and their disuse[?] of an infinity, is great. Are we of the atheistic pursuasion to be as the ignorant and immoral religious adherent? - 16:24:06 on 23 Mar 99 GMT

Ricky:PapaSam: From your responses I only find that you're the one "not worth a shit". You don't get it, I believe you will never get it! Opps, you'll get it, only when you take your last breath on earth, and find you have a soul that will live forever and ever. - 17:38:58 on 23 Mar 99 GMT

Carl:ANY: but, at the same time, it will be nice to be rid o'the likes o'the tree huggers, gads, that was infuriating. All of a sudden gun control was understood. In the wrong hands the patch and paste, the drag and whatever else there that can be done as a capability, was just like a gun in the hands of a mindless xtian rite wing nut. These folks will have it no other way but theirs. - 18:17:47 on 23 Mar 99 GMT

Steven :RICKY <<>> please tell me where your 'soul' resides. Then after you have pointed out where the 'soul' is, then you would be able to tell us how much a soul weighs, how long or short it is, and possible what chemicals represent the soul. Also, maybe you can point out where exactly in the middle of the planet hell is, or on which cloud heaven exists. Since you have such a close relationship to this god thing, maybe you can have him come down and explain to me why no one can reach him, and why none of his believers can prove that he exists. - 19:37:29 on 23 Mar 99 GMT

Joette:RICKY - you have verified what some have said in that you threatened Papasam with what will happen to his "soul" after his body dies. Your benevolent god likes to torture us non-believers, just as believers throughout the ages have tortured those that wouldn't get with the Christian program. tsk tsk. And I am curious as to what answers you have for Steven's very valid questions. - 20:25:57 on 23 Mar 99 GMT

PapaSam:Ricky. I am not afraid of death. When I die they will bury me and I will become food for the worms. When you die, so will you. You don't want to die, so you grab onto the idea that you have a 'soul'. This soul, upon your death, will, you believe, go to "heaven'. I, on the other hand, will go to 'hell' since I am a non-believer. I have bever met anyone who has seen a 'soul', or seen your alleged heaven or hell. Neither have you. You believe in your religion because you drank it up with your mother's milk, and had your mother been of another religion you would have accepted it just as ardently. Had you been born centuries earlier into the Aztec culture, you would have thought it perfectly natural to pluck the heart out of a human sacrifice. I am not looking to hurt your feelings, but you should face facts. Worms there are, souls there ain't.:) - 21:35:07 on 23 Mar 99 GMT

PapaSam:Ricky. Evading the issue is not answering my criticisms. I hope my bringing up the subject of you feeding the worms don't give you nightmares. Can't you just imagine a worm crawling up your nose and chewing up your eyeballs? Yuch! I know it seems gross, but hey, that's the way they make a living. How do "souls" make a living?:) - 21:46:16 on 23 Mar 99 GMT

PapaSam:Eravis. I'm still waiting for your comments on the bible quotes from your boy jesus. Did you check out your bible to see if they were in it? Being on his hit list, do you wonder why I don't like the guy? Are you going to spit in your father's eye? That's a good way to be at variance with your father. Don't forget to make sure your daughter tells her mother off in no uncertain terms. Let's get with it, Trqavis. After all, you are on the side of the good old boy, Jesus, aren't you. - 21:57:14 on 23 Mar 99 GMT

Carl:TRAVIS; So do you figure that becuz some facts lack certainty, that that particular lack is sufficient grounds for a religious belief? Also it looks as tho'your position is that there are "no facts" and all that maybe said o'something is an interpretation? Earlier I have referred to seductions of grammar- a something I've read, which looks like it fits in, quite well, with the what and a where you want others to gratuitously subsume on behalf of [I think], your assumed religious belief. But, for that thing which is me, that subsumption is just excessive nonsense and does not serve anything of concern, including us o'course. Now, if you can come up with something that is apart but nevertheless before us that shows a godthing, great, do it. To be alive forever for eternity, what a thought! {dare we say we'd be gods too?} And, don't pigeon hole this thought by retreating it into something which is subjective to just you or me. Can you TRAVIS, do this? - 22:14:08 on 23 Mar 99 GMT

Doug:I want a viking funeral with a dog at my feet. No worm food for me. - 23:25:27 on 23 Mar 99 GMT

Anselm:STEVEN: You have mentioned several episodes in the history of christianity which are indeed tragic. The inquisitions, the witch hunts and slaughter of native americans are things that are indeed very bad. I, as a christian theist think that I am well within my epistemic rights in affirming the badness of these things because I believe in an absolute moral law. You, however, as an atheist cannot have such an ethical foundation. Rather, the most you can have are social norms based on personal preference and/or individual power. Yes, you could go on and on giving accounts of attrocities committed by christians. You've done your studying, it's evident. However, I could go on and on about pol pot, Joseph Stalin and other such things. This will not prove that all atheists are like Stalin anymore than the crusades prove that all christians are like the crusaders. it does prove two things, however. Number one, that the crusades and inquisitions were the illogical outworkings of a worldview that posits the existence of a deity that holds humanity accountable for their actions and number two, that the deeds of Stalin were the logical outworkings of a worldview that makes man the measure of all things. The question is, which man? How would you answer Stalin if he maintained that he had the right to slaughter countless millions of his own people? Also, you asked Ricky about the quantifiability of the human soul as if quantifiability is the only way to determine the truth or falsity of a claim. If it were, it would render any claim you make as useless since propositions themselves are not quantifiable. Furthermore, perhaps you can tell me the last time you bumped into an ethic. Yet, even so, ethical matters are obviously very real to you. - 1:42:30 on 24 Mar 99 GMT

Ricky:PapaSam: When I die, I have no fear of the worms eating any part of my body they choose to. I thought you knew what the scripture says about death. These old worn-out bodies will rot away and return to the dust of the earth, from where they came. The spirit will leave the body and will regain a new body. One that feels no pain, one that God says will be perfect in every way. Scripture also says that we will walk and talk and sing praises to God, so I would say that given a new body as described in scripture still leaves room for the imagination. I can't tell you what color hair I might have, or if I'll ever need to shave. All I know is that we will be given a "perfect" body in the eyes of God. If he created us in the beginning with the ability to choose in what we do, think, or believe, I guess He can do about anything He chooses to do. Scripture says He is all powerfull and all mighty. From the amaizing wonders of nature itself, provides enough proof for me. When you can proove to me that all the animals, plants, flowers, and even humans, just by chance, happen to come along after some big bang in space and happen to take form on earth and grew to what we have today, well, ,,,,,,,,, maybe you can try convincing yourself of that the first million years you spend in eternity, where ever that might be! - 2:37:11 on 24 Mar 99 GMT

Ricky:Steven: Some people just cannot except proof. God sent prophets telling of the comming of Jesus. Telling of the comming of John the Baptist, and many other great forerunners. People rejected them. They didn't believed "x" stunk. Matter of fact, God sent many men with commandments from God, but they refused to listen. After the world had become so whicked, God again showed His mighty power by sending a flood, something that scientist agree that happened, that destroyed the world with the exception of you know who. God is a God of love, but He is also a God which demands respect. If I create something that I think alot of, I take care of it. But if I create something that gives me no satisfaction, I destroy it, why? I made it, I have the right to do with it whatever I so choose. God made you and He will deal with you, whatever way He chooses. Just remember, time don't mean that much to God, only people need time. I have plenty of time. I have every second of every day God gives me. When that time is up, I'll go be with Him, as He has promised. I don't worship Him because I'm scared I'll burn in Hell, I don't worship Him because I have no choise. I worship Him because I enjoy it. I find pleasure in it. I find peace of mind in it. I worship Him because He loves me and I likewise love Him. I have a personal relationship with Him, talking to Him everyday, through the power of prayer. I could go on and on. Why don't you try it? You might like it! - 2:58:27 on 24 Mar 99 GMT

Ricky:Sounds impossible, to get a new body, to travel through eternity with God, to sing with the Angels. So did flying. So did driving a car 175 miles an hour. So did taking a heart out of one person and placing it in another person and they live. So did puting a man on the moon. Sounded all impossible, that is one hundred years ago, but not anymore! Sounded impossible, for a man to die on a cross and then rise from the dead. Sounded impossible for a man such as Lazarus to be raised from the dead after four days. But just as sure as Orville and Wilber flew the first airplane, these things happened also. I believe what I read in history books about the Wright brothers first flight, and I believe the accuracy of the Bible, either in which you have to have a little faith to believe either. That is why God gave us common sense to weigh the evidence and make logical conclusions. - 3:11:54 on 24 Mar 99 GMT

Joette:ANSELM - it is an old and tired argument you bring forth. You claim that you have the right to espouse morals because you are a theist. However, atheists do not have that right. Is it your claim that morals (ethics) only began when Moses climbed the mount, and had the commandments etched in stone? It is a silly supposition, as people knew right and wrong before then. If they hadn't, the human species would have disappeared long before this particular bible story was written. - 3:48:32 on 24 Mar 99 GMT

Grant:CARL-- I have no intention of blocking anyone from posting their ideas or beliefs or opinions, whatever they may be, but I intend to make it very difficult to trash the board in an attempt to interfere with its operation as a forum for free and open discussion of atheism and religion. I really can't understand your difficulty with this. - 4:28:41 on 24 Mar 99 GMT

Doug:This monkey has more morals than a lot of xians. Morals: More Than Nice, They're Evolution Mozu, a free-ranging, Japanese monkey, was born without hands or feet. She has survived the harsh climate of the mountains for two decades. Last summer, a three-year-old boy fell into the gorilla habitat at the Brookfield Zoo near Chicago. A female lowland gorilla named Binti Jua fist-walked over to the unconscious child and carried him safely to the spot she associated with food and humans. The boy survived to play another day. Binti became a celebrity. And long-term NSF grant recipient and zoologist Frans de Waal was able to document another example of ethical behavior in the animal kingdom. "Altruism is not limited to our species," he writes in his recent book Good Natured: The Origins of Right and Wrong in Humans and Other Animals. "Aiding others at a cost or risk to oneself is widespread in the animal world." In fact, de Waal, of Yerkes Regional Primate Research Center at Emory University, argues that the behavior we associate with morals (e.g., sympathy, reciprocity, attachment between individuals, etc.), usually studied by philosophers, is also part of biology. There is more at stake than ownership of a term. De Waal is also pushing scientists to accept a more complex explanation of evolution. If strict survival of the fittest were the only mechanism operating in nature, unfit animals would always die, but they don't. De Waal offers the example of the Japanese monkey, Mozu. "Mozu looks like any other Japanese monkey except for missing hands and feet and an arresting countenance that appears to reflect lifelong suffering. She roams the Shiga Heights of the Japanese Alps on stumpy limbs, desperately trying to keep up with more than 200 healthy group mates." Mozu, de Waal writes, is an accepted part of the group. When her group split and there was an internal struggle for control of the food in the park, Mozu's side lost. But Mozu succeeded in switching to the dominant band where food was plentiful. "In no society worthy of the name do the members lack a sense of belonging and a need for acceptance. Each member contributes to and benefits from the group, although not necessarily equally or at the same time. "Mozu's case teaches us that, even though primate groups are based on such give-and-take contracts, there is room for individuals with little value when it comes to cooperation. The cost to the others may be negligible, but their inclusion is remarkable, given the realistic alternative of ostracism." Photo courtesy of Frans de Waal, Yerkes Primate Research Center Throughout his book, de Waal uses both hard data and anecdotes to show that "moralistic" behavior is natural, recognizable and often beneficial to the long-term survival of the group. Furthermore, while great apes, such as Binti, look most familiar to us--they share food, stop quarrels, and help others without getting immediate rewards--other animals also have unselfish dealings with one another. In short, de Waal points out a profound paradox in all animal life. Genetic self-advancement at the expense of others--the basic thrust of evolution--co-exists with the capacities for caring and sympathy. "Just as in animals," he says, "for humans, making peace is as natural as making war." Frontiers Newsletter: January 1997 - 4:30:41 on 24 Mar 99 GMT

PapaSam:Ricky. Your mind is so enmired in the idiocies of the bible that I realize that No logic can make you change it. You believe in souls, spirits, angels and so on. You believe A dead man came back to life and resuscitated another who had been dead for four days. Do you read the supermarket tabloids such as the "Globe" and the "Enquirer"? They're fit companions for your bible and the writers of the bible have their equivalent in the writers for those tabloids. I would tell you to wise up, but you're too far gone. Enjoy your delusions, talk to your 'god' and walk with your angels. Be sure you're good and don't succumb to human temptations or you'll find the Devil goosing you with a red hot pitchfork. - 6:31:57 on 24 Mar 99 GMT

PapaSam:Travis. I'm still waiting for your comments on my selections of quotes by your boy jesus. Are you at variance with your father yet.Have you told your female relatives they should chew out their mothers and mothers-in-law and put them in their places.? If not, what are you waiting for? Are you a follower of jesus or not. Either shit or get off the pot. - 6:40:10 on 24 Mar 99 GMT

PapaSam:Anselm. Codes of ethics existed long befor your bible and your religion were created. The code pf Hammurabi was written about 1700 years before your jesus was born. The Chinese likewise had laws and rules of justice. I suggest you pay more attention to a good encyclopedia instead ofyour bible. - 6:50:05 on 24 Mar 99 GMT

Grant: All systems go?::We seem to be ready for action at the new location. The new URL is http://www.man-made.net. Our very own Rob has agreed to co-admin the site. There will be some more minor cosmetic changes and some new content. Comments and suggestions are welcomed. - 13:58:40 on 24 Mar 99 GMT

man-made.net:: - 14:07:36 on 24 Mar 99 GMT

Grant: It works! :Welcome! I've hijacked the last 30 posts from the other site. I hope to eventually get all the old posts from the other site on here. - 14:18:00 on 24 Mar 99 GMT

Joette :GRANT - it's like deja vu all over again! Good work! - 14:59:25 on 24 Mar 99 GMT

Grant: Our first customer! :JOETTE-- Thanks. I really want to hang around today, but I've gotta go dang it all! :) - 15:02:38 on 24 Mar 99 GMT

Carl :GRANT; the only difficulty I have doesn't concern you or the actions you've prepared for, that was just a note 'for' the saddness of those such as the tree huggers who may well have been gov't agents or who kno's, why they carried on as they did. No, the actions one must take to maintain some order and integrity is about like picking a starting lineup for a baseball game. It would be nice to play them all but only 9 at a time can go, and I pick those that will establish a game flow that will make it easier for the others to step in and do what they can. The sad part, the time spent by the nonstarters who must use their time so, to get a chance to start. But, the bad taste those tree huggers left w/me, I must confess that I am somehow pleased that they are in the history of this discussion site. Let the ideas come forth and if the tree huggertypes showup, just do it. - 15:25:25 on 24 Mar 99 GMT

Steven :wow, i like the format - 16:27:40 on 24 Mar 99 GMT

Carl :GRANT1; will it be much longer before the "links" part of this site will be fully transferred? I've searched thru many of its links that are available elsewhere but I'd have to hunt them down and then expand my list of favorites. - 16:36:47 on 24 Mar 99 GMT

Carl :OPEN; well, is this site readi to go or not? - 20:54:02 on 24 Mar 99 GMT

Marlene :Hi Everyone! Being a long time poster to this page, I'm so grateful to everyone here that has done their best to keep this page up especially RON, STEVEN and now GRANT and ROB. The rest of us couldn't ask for more. Thank You!!!!! I'm totally rushed today so I have no time to post anymore but later... - 21:04:39 on 24 Mar 99 GMT

Carl :KOSOVO; thru the ages whenever some group o'people dared to kill by design those o'another group they've inculcated some godthing saying that that thing was supportive o'some side. In the Kosovo thing they seem to have added drugs to taint the other side. I read a report that says one of the combatants was funded by drug$$. Seems like the drug connection was never known of until after the war action. Like the French gaveup the asian heroine connection, Noriega gave his drug connections, there are some books with the pertinent details of this 'concern'. Just a thing I saw that made me think about a thing or two. - 21:46:44 on 24 Mar 99 GMT

jaywilson--Yaa-freaking--hoo!-- :A house-warming present, y'all. Congratulations! - 21:59:36 on 24 Mar 99 GMT

Joette :jaywilson - very amusing. Thanks. - 22:47:46 on 24 Mar 99 GMT

Carl :JWILSON; your fan mail! more evidence that religious stuff like prayin'and such are unheard and so, are quite worthless. Some dude here liked to post the line "no god is good", he was looking 'dead' at those just like your fan mail writers. - 23:24:53 on 24 Mar 99 GMT

Doug :just like star trek I didn't know it was another site. - 2:17:05 on 25 Mar 99 GMT

Grant :CARL-- ALL-- Of the 18 links on the old links page, all but seven are dead. Rob is currently working on a new links page. I've been doing searches of sites which link to mimm. Many of these are very good. We're going to offer them a reciprocal link if they will update their link to us. This stuff takes a bit of time but we're on the job. Thanks all for the positive response. - 4:07:30 on 25 Mar 99 GMT

Rob (speak now or forever hold your piece) :GRANT: *claps out loud* ...well done for making the changeover a success -I just hope I can do your efforts justice. ALL: Now would be a good time to air any thoughts or suggestions you may have to help take MiMM from strength to strength. Anything you would like to see? (before anyone asks, I'm not sure porn is allowed unless it's very relevant ;) - 9:00:55 on 25 Mar 99 GMT

Joette the friendly neighbourhood lech :ROB: just when I thought we could see a nekkid picture of you! Darn it all! - 14:52:25 on 25 Mar 99 GMT

Carl :ANY; At this time, I can still see how this PC thing is a way, could be a means to connect and even join differing minds. Above in a prior post I inscribed that perhaps the "treehuggers" were infiltrators, maybe even from the gov't. That was not meant to frighten any into personal restraint and certainly not to channel any thought process for safety reasons. But, as some may have noted I am annoyed that any would even dare and deign to think that I ought to disregard anything for one thing. But, I ran into this, doesn't this mean that UFO-like "they" are among us? - 16:14:37 on 25 Mar 99 GMT

Joette :CARL - I don't understand the mindset that would make one think that this page is infiltrated by government agencies. It is my guess that the former spammer was Grimwood (remember when he was sane?) and after bringing his name into the spotlight again, the spamming stopped. Now, that is an opinion based merely on his past actions, and of course I could be wrong. Now, as far as your URL goes, do you think there may be a "KGB For Kids" site too? - 18:55:48 on 25 Mar 99 GMT

Carl :JOETTE: Nope, just the "CIA for Kids" appears. If I appear a bit off beat well allow me that drift. But, these are among the questions I hang onto just in case the likes o'WJC followers go after 'monitoring' these PC things, again. I suppose it is ok to go along to get along. - 19:26:47 on 25 Mar 99 GMT

Joette :CARL - I meant no offense about the mindset that would worry about the government infringing. It is very possible that I am deluding myself in believing that freedom of speech is alive and well, and living on the "net". I think too it is a cultural thing. We Canadians are so polite and trusting. :o) - 20:43:07 on 25 Mar 99 GMT

Carl :JOETTE: no offense? none took, how do you like the site? I ain't too much on the 'feelin' stuff, but it is nice to know that thoughtful discussion and exchange has a haven here, again. How r u? Oh what you thunk ya'saw was probably on target, do you find that you're influenced by things you're reading when pondering things? Perhaps thats what I was caught-up in. So, be good, 'babe'. - 21:09:43 on 25 Mar 99 GMT

Joette :CARL - I am often influenced by things that I read or hear, but I have learned that one must look at all sides of an issue before making any conclusions. For instance, if someone were to say that processed cheese was bad for your health, I would look to see who financed the study, as it would be the financer's goal to make sure we believed the findings. So, I am skeptical about most things, until such time as I can research all aspects. However, it is my opinion that all manufacturer's of "processed cheese food" should be put to death. *s* - 21:43:45 on 25 Mar 99 GMT

Marlene..in defense :JOETTE- Does that include Kraft Singles? - 0:01:38 on 26 Mar 99 GMT

Joette :MARLENE...it especially means Kraft Singles! LOL! - 0:11:53 on 26 Mar 99 GMT

Marlene :JOETTE- You'll be pleased to know that I'm eating a hunk of extra old cheese. Wild stuff! - 4:31:42 on 26 Mar 99 GMT

Marlene :It looks like the cold war (which IMO never stopped) is heating up a little over the UN bombing the Serbs. A little scary. I notice the public in general aren't too impressed with this move. Could it be that the Serbs are really "good christians" being taken over by muslims that may be on some people's minds. The Serbs are being real asses in Canada here, throwing bottle bombs at the US Embassy in Toronto. They haven't got my sympathy. - 4:39:27 on 26 Mar 99 GMT

Doug :If the serbs and all the others learned to live in peace with there neighbors all this would be unnecesary.You just don't muder your neighbors because they don't butter their bread the same way. - 5:53:37 on 26 Mar 99 GMT

Marlene :DOUG- I agree! One can see first hand the Serbian frame of mind by their actions in Toronto. I would suggest that if these people want to thow bottle bombs, they return to their own country where this is the norm. I personally don't want them here if they can learn that violence isn't acceptable here. - 14:30:57 on 26 Mar 99 GMT

Joette :MARLENE - the area in which I live is a favourite spot for Croatian and Serbian immigrants to live. We are just a small city, barely 250,000 people, but even here there have been riots, and our city doesn't know how to deal with it. (the last time there was anything going on in the streets was when the Blue Jays won the World Series for the first time). So, it is bringing this military action very close to home. I wonder what the true impetus of this action is though. Sure the Serbs have been attacking the Albanians, but this is just another in a series of atrocties that have transpired since Yugoslavia became divided. Where was NATO 10 years ago when it all started? I wonder what is behind this.... - 15:09:45 on 26 Mar 99 GMT

Marlene :JOETTE- I agree, where in hell were they 10 years ago. I think NATO is putting some European countries in a very difficult position right now. Russia and China do not agree with these strikes and those European countries who are involved may be putting themselves in some danger. As I mentioned, I don't think the cold war was ever over and communism isn't a thing of the past in Russia either. This could get very messy. - 15:54:03 on 26 Mar 99 GMT

Joette :MARLENE - I've been watching CNN almost non-stop for the last 3 days, and so have been getting a minute by minute non-update (nobody wants to say anything), but today Italy and Greece asked NATO to stop the bombing, even though they are NATO countries. Apparently the bombing is getting a little too close for comfort, and they don't want to be in harm's way. However, Clinton (since when has he become head of NATO?) has stated that the resolve is strong, and they will continue. Maybe it's time to kiss our asses goodbye? (you realize of course that all these apocolyptic idiots are probably enjoying this very much) - 16:04:53 on 26 Mar 99 GMT

Marlene :JOETTE- Maybe Clinton is a reincarnation of Nero. Truthfully though, I think this is why NATO has held off on doing anything with the Serbs. The Serbs are white and christian and have many sympathizers in the Northern European regions. China, of course sees this as an opportunity for the west to loose some popularity. It's really very messy but IMO unavoidable. I don't know just when the US became the "big cheese" in NATO but it seems to have been the thing for some time now. - 17:31:07 on 26 Mar 99 GMT

Marlene :As for the apocolyptic nature of this mess, I'm sure many of the nuts think this is just what they've been waiting for. Maybe they've all been wasting their time in the Middle East. - 17:35:59 on 26 Mar 99 GMT

Joette :Just heard that Dr. Kevorkian was found guilty of second degree murder in the trial stemming from the 60 Minutes broadcast. Does anyone know why he chose to represent himself this time around? His lawyer always seemed to get him off before. And who charged him with murder this time around? Was it the State? It's a sad day for those that choose to die with dignity. - 22:33:41 on 26 Mar 99 GMT

Doug :he said only he could ask thr right questions.He is saying now that he wants to have a lawyer.I think it was very fooloish of him not to have a lawyer present. - 23:56:10 on 26 Mar 99 GMT

Joette :DOUG - I do too, although the legal pundits on CNN were applauding him today. They were sure he would be found not guilty. I guess they have legal egg on their faces now. - 0:06:15 on 27 Mar 99 GMT

Doug :Joette: Did you see Dr. Kevorkian promise not to assist in any suicides as part of the bail hearing.I believe he has thumbed his nose in the past and violated this in other trials.I really fear that they have him this time. - 4:42:31 on 27 Mar 99 GMT

Grant :I think many people, including the jury, have a problem with the matter of accountability. I too am uncomfortable with this. Who is Kavorkian accountable to? If we give the power to make life or death judgements to anybody who is a doctor on the basis of quality of life or patient desires or other determinations, aren't we undermining the sanctity of life which is an important but relatively recent developement in human history? - 5:03:18 on 27 Mar 99 GMT

Doug :Grant:Thats the point,why don"t I have the right to choose death in the case of a terminal disease(I will do it myself). If I ask a doctor for help ending my life he/she should be able to provide me with the civilized means of ending it.It's my life and my choice not the states, church, or business men. Take a tour of a nursing home,everybody I know who does comes to the conclusion that they would be better off dead than be like that.This sanctity of life is a religious belief that is being forced upon everyone.The we is always a I when it comes to giving power over my life.You are giving that right up to the state. - 6:42:19 on 27 Mar 99 GMT

Joette :GRANT - the slippery slope argument? I don't think there is anyone out there that wants to give the decision of life and death to doctors or other medical practitioners. Instead, people are asking to be given the choice, so instead of years of suffering, they can die with dignity. It is my wish that people who are legally, in the psychological sense, able to make this decision on their own, should be allowed to die the way they see fit. Kevorkian doesn't go around looking for people to put out of their misery, instead they come to him. He has given the finger to the state of Michigan, because they do not have a law regarding "assisted suicide" and he is trying to force their hand. This issue is important to him, and he has nothing to gain by helping those that come to him. He is an old man, and he is merely paving the way for those that think euthanasia is a more humane way of treating the sick, when they have made the decision to die. - 14:01:24 on 27 Mar 99 GMT

Joette extending kudos... :GRANT - just noticed the instructions on how to view old posts. Brilliant! - 14:23:41 on 27 Mar 99 GMT

Marlene :I don't know about this sanctity of life. What IS life when life is only pain and suffering until natural death finally ends it all? I think it should be one's choice to end one's life if they no longer have quality of life. If one can't do this themselves, for what ever reason, then if another person can assist, I say great! It shouldn't be a doctor though. They are sworn to preserve life. Others who are specially trained and for that purpose only should become the helper. And again, I stress, to end a life should be only the decision of the person themselves. I find it ironic that the law will impose a death penalty as a form of punishment but not allow someone to die in peace as part of a humane society. - 15:04:51 on 27 Mar 99 GMT

Joette :MARLENE - interesting point about doctors having to swear to preserve life. The reason I say this is because I have been actually studying the Hippocratic Oath of late. They have to swear to the God Apollo too, and I don't think they take that part of it very seriously. I think I will post it for all to read, as it may be something we all know about, but not really know.... - 16:07:44 on 27 Mar 99 GMT

Joette :I think it's a wonderful piece of writing... - 16:10:19 on 27 Mar 99 GMT

emily :Hello. My first time here. Glad to meet a new group of thinkers. *S* - 16:27:09 on 27 Mar 99 GMT

emily :Nobody here? - 16:29:40 on 27 Mar 99 GMT

emily :Ok. I'll try back later on then. *poof* - 16:30:23 on 27 Mar 99 GMT

Joette :EMILY - welcome. This isn't a chat room per se...we post, leave, and wander back whenever we have a minute. Glad to see you though. - 16:43:44 on 27 Mar 99 GMT

Grant :I agree with you folks generally on the right to die thing, but am uneasy about it, especially the administration of it. Who decides who is mentally competent to make such a decision and whose quality of life is poor enough, and on what basis? Should anyone who wishes to die be afforded oportunity and assistance? The murder2 conviction of Kevorkian seems unjust on the face of it, but the law must be upheld, (by the courts and juries specifically,)otherwise of what value is it? I do think the "slippery slope" arguments, particularly by the disabled rights groups, are a bit paranoid. - 19:32:37 on 27 Mar 99 GMT

Grant :Did we lose Anselm in the move? Hope not. - 20:28:08 on 27 Mar 99 GMT

Joette :GRANT - I would assume that if someone were against a loved one wanting to die with dignity, they would undergo the same psychological testing that one has to take to see if they are fit to stand trial in a court of law. - 2:20:50 on 28 Mar 99 GMT

Marlene :JOETTE- Thank you for posting the oath. I hadn't read it before. I surprised they haven't revised it to read "God" instead of gods and goddesses. I have a friend as I think I mentioned before that is a psychiatrist but was a practised medicine in his earlier years. I had a discussion with him on euthanasia. He stand by this "preserving life" thing and believes any doctor to doesn't shouldn't be a doctor. But that doesn't mean it has to be an end to euthanasia. I understand the law is working just fine for the Aussies. - 5:11:08 on 28 Mar 99 GMT

Marlene :Yikes! Lots of mistakes in that above post. I must be tired! - 5:12:29 on 28 Mar 99 GMT

Marlene :GRANT and JOETTE- I suppose there would be a bit of a problem when it comes to someone making a decision for someone else who may be incapable of making the decision. It wouldn't be fair to have euthansia available to only those who are capable of making their own decisions or...is the ownership of one's life their's and their's alone? I can honestly say that I couldn't and wouldn't make that type of decision for anyone unless a living will had outlined they requested such action. - 5:20:36 on 28 Mar 99 GMT

Marlene :WELCOME EMILY! - 5:21:41 on 28 Mar 99 GMT

Marlene :GRANT- Maybe Anselm doesn't know we've moved? Maybe it wouldn't hurt to put a "we've moved" message on the old page? I notice the druid is getting his last spams in there. - 5:24:24 on 28 Mar 99 GMT

Marlene :As you likely all know by now, I love sci-fi, especially the Orwell inspired stuff. I read a real "no brainer" short story the other day that has been on my mind since I read it. I found it on the net so someone else must have been haunted too, lol. I'll leave the address for those who would like to read it. For those who do, what did you think? - 5:30:59 on 28 Mar 99 GMT

Grant :MARLENE-- Vonnegut's usual wit. Don't think it would have said as much in '61, at least not to me. :) - 16:17:36 on 28 Mar 99 GMT

Joette :MARLENE...thanks for posting the story. Vonnegut has always been a favourite, so it was a good way to start the day. (even if it was as depressing as hell....we can now replace the Ted Turner's and Rupert Murdoch's and Conrad Black's of the world for Diana Moon Glampers) - 16:50:43 on 28 Mar 99 GMT

Marlene :Yup! A depressing but thoughtful story. I think my favorite line in the story is "I'd think it would be real interesting, hearing all the different sounds," said Hazel a little envious. "All the things they think up." - 20:06:55 on 28 Mar 99 GMT

Joette :MARLENE - I was watching The Fifth Estate this afternoon, and they did a scathing report on the editors of this magazine (URL). What is it with the west and their zealots? - 21:10:01 on 28 Mar 99 GMT

Marlene :JOETTE- What's their beef with the magazine? Could it be that the rest of Canada is just a bit jealous of Alberta? I love that province. I understand that they are bringing in a flat tax, have you heard about it? - 21:25:52 on 28 Mar 99 GMT

Joette :MARLENE - if you read the articles, you will see that they are right of the right. Christian fundamentalists who think homosexuals should be put to death etc. - 0:20:20 on 29 Mar 99 GMT

Joette :MARLENE - re Alberta...I have only had the pleasure of visiting Edmonton, and if it is indicative of the province, then I love it too. Several of the Maritime provinces have the flat tax too, it's called HST. I'm surprised Manitoba doesn't have it yet. It's just the asshole Mike Harris here in Ontario that is holding the process up nationally. - 0:22:58 on 29 Mar 99 GMT

Joette :GRANT - sorry oh master of the board...is it still okay to use profanity? - 0:23:45 on 29 Mar 99 GMT

Oh Master :Shit no, JO!! - 0:26:07 on 29 Mar 99 GMT

Darrell :Flat tax, flat line. Hello, this is my first post at the behest of Joette's encouragement. I believe in "intellectual suicide," as opposed to emotional. I will go "off line" Oct 26th in my 78th year. That's my contribution for now, you all seem to be very intellegent. Hope to keep up. - 0:49:31 on 29 Mar 99 GMT

Marlene... :JOETTE- I should have read the articles in more depth! I read just the headlines. Remember, it's Preston's stompin' grounds, lol! Many in Alberta are not only xtian but rednecks to boot. KD isn't very popular there as you likely know. I also believe there are many racist groups located there. It's a nice place to live weather wise and there is enough wide open spaces to make a ranch into a fortress. While I like Edmonton too, Calgary is my kind of town! - 1:16:40 on 29 Mar 99 GMT

Marlene :HI DARREL- So...what do you mean by off-line in your 78th year, planning your day of demise? - 1:20:14 on 29 Mar 99 GMT

Marlene :HI DARREL- So...what do you mean by off-line in your 78th year, planning your day of demise? - 1:20:16 on 29 Mar 99 GMT

Marlene :Don't ask me how I doubled that last one up?!? Suicide? Don't leave now, wait until we've chewed you up some more, lol! - 1:23:19 on 29 Mar 99 GMT

Darrell :MARLENE. Hi, nice to meet you. Yes, I actually mean committing "self deliverence" on that date and year I celebrate my "death day" each year with a party of my own as one would their birthday. I can't say as I see that there would be much more to live for in those years. How many grand slams does one need to see or how many BLT's does one need to eat to say I've had enough!? - 1:47:23 on 29 Mar 99 GMT

Joette - inquiring minds want to know... :DARRELL - lots of people aren't exactly old codgers by the time they reach the age of 78. What made you pick that date? - 1:50:06 on 29 Mar 99 GMT

JOETTE, at that age, I surmise, that I'd be of sound enough mind and ability to deliver myself into worm fodder. Doing it after that might not be safe as others could take over my affairs and make decisions I'm not in agreement with. That way I'm in complete control of my final exit. I had no decision getting here, I want to decide my departure, thass all. By the way Joette, I like this medium of communication. Thanks for suggesting it. - 1:55:56 on 29 Mar 99 GMT

Marlene who ain't foddering any worms any time soon! :DARREL- You can't even be close to 78! Papasam who posts here is 82 and I doubt has any plans to be leaving such an interesting world just yet. As you come a little closer to 78, I'd wager you'll up that to 88, as you get closer to 88, you'll up it to 98. As long as the world is interesting, why would anyone want to leave as long as their health is fine? - 5:14:02 on 29 Mar 99 GMT

Rob (Food for worms? Sounds like a good swap...) :Hello Darrell, and Emily -nice to make both of your's aquaintance. DARRELL: I follow the rationale, but wonder why fix a date? It doesn't really give you any more control (at least, not "complete" control) for you are still at liberty to die naturally before then. That said, I can see the uses of such a plan... I expect in conversation it scares off or exposes most of the people that aren't capable of interesting thought ;) Tell me though- what urged you to choose Oct 26th? - 15:20:48 on 29 Mar 99 GMT

Marlene :ROB and DARREL- In Canada here we have "living wills" in which we can state our wishes if it so happens we are incapable of making them at the time of our near death. For instance we can state that we don't want life support systems. We can't, of course, plan our own death but we do have some control. Darrel, are you from the US? What do you have in place there in England Rob? - 15:33:57 on 29 Mar 99 GMT

Carl :ANY: looked as if some were curious of what is or has become available for reading? If eye! has any had a chance to read "Guns Germs and Steel"? I saw it and will purchase it soon, its table of contents looked as tho'it will follow a presentation much like the book,"America, Country Made by War". - 16:00:16 on 29 Mar 99 GMT

Carl :GRANT: have you incorporated a means for reviewin prior posts for this new site? - 16:04:13 on 29 Mar 99 GMT

Joette :CARL - missed you on Friday! So, do you think the baseball game in Cuba yesterday did anything to soften the Cuba/USA conflict? (I guess the Orioles should have been polite and let the Cubans win) - 16:06:56 on 29 Mar 99 GMT

Carl :GRANT; itz ok! I simply didn't setup a review when I had the chance. - 16:09:00 on 29 Mar 99 GMT

Carl :JOETTE: Well, perhaps things may have litened up since Fidels young and tough days. The lure of a utopian world such communism, no bourgeoisie no proletariat no flesh o'the machine thing, may have passed on, softened up with his getting old. Back when FC was a genuine herd buck, he ruined Cuba as a fun place for the USA rich. Lotsa'folks missed out on a lotta self gratification. Isn't that what 'freedom' is all about? Heck with that workin'and thinkin'stuff. - 16:20:32 on 29 Mar 99 GMT

Joette :CARL - Cuba is again a favourite vacation spot, at least for those of us in the Great White Nord. However, we have suffered serious consequences at the hands of your own government, vis a vis The Helms Burton Law. Now, isn't it ironic that certain members of your congress find it offensive that we do trade with Cuba, but it's okay to export your national pasttime there? Somebody is talking out of two sides of the face. - 17:13:33 on 29 Mar 99 GMT

Carl :JOETTE: Hypocrisy "and" the USA? Helms Burton? Is it anything like the hypocrisy of the people of the tate o'NY who consider putting in place this; The Penal law is amended by adding two new sections 245.20 and 245.21 to read a s follows: S245.20 Ridicule of Rligious Beliefs or practices; defnitions of terms. Section 245.21 1"diety", etc. 2"Public place" etc. Is this the kinda'hypocrisy you say is two-faced? - 17:45:20 on 29 Mar 99 GMT

Carl :JOETTE: The interesting thing about the USA is in it being "free". In the NY thing thats what those there I guess 'think' is right, for NY. In SF the hoopla concerns some gay types who were kissin'on the steps o'some church. I heard some calls on a raio program referrin'to biblical scripture on what a god said of males on males and females on females. In the community I reside there is a majority that are non-religious. Over the weekend I saw presentation o'the KKK and how the southern communitys'allowed'them to function. It looks as if the term "free" allows for the dynamicness of people to exist as tgat dynamic is in people. In the KKK thing one of the reasons I read in a paper put out by these people, that was interesting but I can't recall the paper name, was that they chose xtianity and the bible for the anti-democracy of that faith. Church history shows it was against any, e.g.Hegel, Hume, Lyell, etc., who proposed that things change. As far as I can tell that anti-change is why the catholics- in particular, like and use the notion of the metaphysics. This notion says to them that All is and whatever now is, is of that All in a measured and given amount. The All of metaphysics does not change. So, is there a hypocrisy of what is "free"? Was that sorta'your concern? - 18:32:14 on 29 Mar 99 GMT

Joette :CARL - re the NY law, hopefully Adam will magically appear and explain that, as I certainly know nothing about it, and you obviously have lots of examples of it. I guess it depends on what day of the week it is whether a law will be acknowledged or not. In the matter of the Helms Burton law, it has affected relations between our two countries, as though someone in your government isn't content until every other country is pissed off at it. You ever get that feeling? - 19:15:42 on 29 Mar 99 GMT

DARRELL. ROB- The Month of October seemed symbolic enough for "the end" yet early enough so as to not appear to be checking out emotionally in the dismal months of winter. The 26th just popped into my head and that's I celebrate my death day, on that day. One of the 365 days you lived this last year will randomly be the day of your death. Might as well pick one em and celebrate it. MARLENE, you speak wisely, yes, if life is still interesting and my health is good, I might decide to extend it another year while not buying green bananas. Today, even, is a great day to die. - 2:40:59 on 30 Mar 99 GMT

Doug :Joette: good old boy Jesse Helms a right wing fundy senator torpedoed our goveror from Massachusetts who was going to be the ambassator to Mexico.Bill Weld is a former US attorney who worked closly with the Mexican gov.stemming the drug trade. We all will be glad to see the ass h--e Helms go meet nazisjezzus. Helms has screwed up more relations domestic and foreign with his crack pot views. If you want to hurt Helms stop smoking; that's right he gets mucho bucks from the tobacco industry. - 3:02:34 on 30 Mar 99 GMT

Darrell :Carl, free will is a misnomer, I think we are nothing more than neuro-transmitters subjected to our ever changing environment that nearly dictates a response. I believe in causal determinism. - 3:20:37 on 30 Mar 99 GMT

Guess Who :You had it right in the first few lines: Jessy Helms a good ole boy! Done more for North Carolina than any other politician we've had in the past few years. I like the guy! - 3:31:38 on 30 Mar 99 GMT

Joette :GUESS WHO - I would be delighted to find out what good Jesse Helms has done, since all I have ever heard of him is his anti-gay, anti-anyone who isn't American rhetoric. Look forward to your response. - 3:57:26 on 30 Mar 99 GMT

Doug :GUESS WHO; your buddy Helms screwed a lot of americans by and made friends with the drug lords when he filibustered against Weld. The man's a fool and will go down in history as one of our worst senators Weld cleaned up organized crime hear in the northeast and worked with Mexican Officials when He was a Federal District Attorney. But Helms is nothing more that a pimp for the drug lords as thats where he gets his money.Just remember smoking stinks and so does Helms. - 5:04:48 on 30 Mar 99 GMT

Grant (sore typing finger) :CARL-- I'm working on getting the old posts up. If Ron will send me the file "/data/relig.data." we're in. If not, I've saved all the posts but each one would have to be slightly edited to be read by the script. I'm sure you recognize the magnitude of this undertaking. - 14:22:26 on 30 Mar 99 GMT

Carl :GRANT: What you've done so far is fully and wholly appreciated by at least this concerned party. When you put forward 'the old posts' to what point in time in the history of this site did or will you stop? That would be quite an undertaking to capture posts of even several years time, let alone the whole thing! Wow! You must be serious being and creature. - 16:07:14 on 30 Mar 99 GMT

Carl :DARRELL: That position your vista of a 'causal determination' how does one account for the idea of "plans" or "anticipation"? Does such determination mean that the future is the past? - 16:14:49 on 30 Mar 99 GMT

Darrell :CARL. It's practical knowledge that nature does not provide us with an owners manual but that we have to learn as we go. Both, determined man and nature are inseparably causing effects on each other. There is a "determineness" in all the universe and, as I surmise, you'd probable agree that man and his experiments with nature/existence causes the very experiment to be adulterated, altering the "pure" nature of the thing being examined or experimented with. The chaos theory is also appropos to causal determinism and it is significantly theoritical and somewhat practical that the butterfly's wing flapping in Eastern Canada can alter the slightest wind direction- causing it to perhaps-- tempestously monsoon in Arizona. A determined man can condition cold air inside his home while throwing more heat into his environment and collectively causing a rise in overall heat levels so simularily can a butterfly effect it's surrounding environment. All things will eventually go haywire. In the mean time, all determined things will effect other determined things and even entropy might eventually change. Now, as to your inquiry of "plans" and "anticipation" Man does not choose between the philosophy of impotency and the philosophy of expectation. These conditions are forced upon him by the very nature of his being and by the circumstances of his existence. Man may anticipate his next lay, but NATURE is responsible to stimulate the desire and the man "can't help himself" in the desire department but can in his action or inaction. Additionally, it's the mature brain's causal nature to "choose" to act or to not act. And that "choosing" is based upon many emperical factors of "causal" consequences. Surely, you've heard the trite phrase; Sometimes it's better to travel hopefully than it is to arrive. So, planing and wishing and dreaming and scheming often pales in comparison to the "determining" of uncertain circumstances. Yes, necessity is the mother of invention and imagination is the father but most all "plans" are victim to causal determinism and time/space. There IS no "freewill." It's merely "costwill" A nice poem for you; Ponder that inverted bowl they call the sky, Whereunder crawling coop'd we live and die, Lift not your determined hands to It for help-- for it as impotently moves, as YOU and I. Besides Carl, we ONLY have the present to deal with now and the future present to deal with then. Enough! How's the weather where you live? - 0:46:18 on 31 Mar 99 GMT

Marlene :DARELL- Very well done post on determinism! - 4:21:51 on 31 Mar 99 GMT

Grant :CARL-- I mean to say I typed in 30000 in the location box of my browser while on the flex.net site, then saved all 11.3 megs of old posts back to where Ron took over. I wish I had saved posts prior to that. If anyone has saved older posts than that I'd be very appreciative if you would send them to me at admin@man-made.net. I'll eventually get the old posts up one way or another. - 13:38:19 on 31 Mar 99 GMT

Carl :DARRELL: You really are but that third chimpanzee I think that can be said appropriately and w/out concern of offending anyone. But, while that must appeal for one who see's insignificance and commonality any and everywhere, hooray for them! I on the other hand do not see this nor do I see things that way. It seems ok to say that you detached yourself from things in order to arrive at your determinist position, and for the logic of one's fishbowl[per poem], its true. Like many others- I thought you too, got close to things then shied away instead grabbed onto the comforts of what you know to be so. I liked what Giambattista Vico and Alfred Korzybski said o'the human creature. Simply so, what they said was the human creature builds and that is its value. What and how they said this and that is beyond this meager post o'course, and I like this ditty, "Wo so would be a man must be a nonconformist." Is this where you are? - 15:51:05 on 31 Mar 99 GMT

Carl :AMENDS: Curses!! the quote s/b,"Who so would be a man must be a nonconformist" and o'course for me the man term could be reworded to read- the human organism. - 16:21:49 on 31 Mar 99 GMT

Carl :ANY: So what does any think or see of the 'clash o'the titans' thing in serbia/croatia? As you may recall the pope hisself declared that the catholic group there represented the doorstep to the mideast, or was it the inverse? Very strange are the godthing adherents, thats for sure. - 17:12:00 on 31 Mar 99 GMT

Marlene :CARL- MO of the problem in Serbia is this...Although something had to be done and I do think NATO is doing the right thing, the west is going to come out of this stinking. As you know the Serbs are xtians. Most of the northern Europeans wouldn't want muslim minorities in their countries for fear they may become a majority. Most of the countries don't agree with killing them off but they do sympathize with the Serbs in the area of not letting the muslims proliferate. The governments of these countries may not come out and say this but I'm sure the lay people would voice this opinion. Russia and China are of course taking advantage of this discontent with the west to further their agenda which of course is to deteriorate the popularity of the west. I think this is why it took so long for NATO to become involved in this civil problem. Would the US interfere if Canada had a war over the separation of Quebec? Would NATO since we're a member? It would be another ethnic issue in a sense. - 18:04:21 on 31 Mar 99 GMT

PapaSam :Oops! No Cookie... You clicked on a LinkExchange banner, but there was an error processing your request. A thank you offends them --(-)EllA. They borrow. Eyes. moonboy~~~skullfuck~~~lucid dreaming - 18:10:13 on 31 Mar 99 GMT

Carl :MARLENE: I've really been snookered by that serb croatian matter, the only understanding i can make out of it, are in its religious connections. Otherwise, as I keep seeing said, they've been at a war for whatever reason for a long time. That long time aspect seems always smeared and fueled by some religious difference. I read that the orthodox xtians, muslims and catholics just want the other dead. Which side do you think WJC/USA supports? - 18:13:40 on 31 Mar 99 GMT

:Garbage deleted -

Steven :GRANT <<<>>> the dickhead spammers are back, cant wait for you to trace their sorry ass IP's. - 20:23:10 on 31 Mar 99 GMT

Joette :CARL/MARLENE...being the unemployed bum that I am, I have had the displeasure of following the Kosovo crisis ad nauseum. Whether it be a religious war or not, something has to be done. The NATO airstrikes are failing miserably, and ground troops must be sent in if there is to be any stopping of the carnage. Last night on one news report there was a scene right out of Schindler's List, only this wasn't Hollywood. A trainload of Albanians arrived in Macedonia, the passengers singing and clapping and elated to have found freedom. The next minute, police surrounded the train, and forced the engineer to turn around. He was told to blow the whistle of the train so that those on the platforms couldn't hear the screaming and crying as these people were sent back, sure to be killed the moment the train stopped in Kosovo. Maybe I am too much of a marshmallow, but I don't give a shit if a person is muslim, christian, catholic or satanist. All deserve to live. No one deserves to die at the hands of insane dictators. And now the rest of the world is starting to turn their back, because they don't want the Albanian refugees to become "their" problem. Does this not smack of what happened in 1939-45???? It's everyone's problem, and everyone should speaking up. - 20:45:13 on 31 Mar 99 GMT

Joette :(and on a personal note, every night in my little city, there is a huge rally of Serbians decrying the fate of their relatives. We are now being told that if we are Canadain we are murderers, and that our Prime Minister is no different than Hitler. It doesn't seem to sink into these thick skulls that is the Serbs that keep killing people. I am so mad I could spit) - 20:48:04 on 31 Mar 99 GMT

Adam NOW THAT'S THE OLD TEAM SPIT!!! ÝÝÝÝ :ÝÝÝÝ Looks like a new venue in which to kick god's ass! God is like crums from really old, moldy bread that fall on the floor and roll under your cast-iron radiator which is such a fixture that you can't pick it up and vacuum under it or anything and so these crumbs just keep molding up amidst old piles of dust and dead bug bodies and residue from who-knows what plus mildew from the moisture in the radiator. That what god means to me. Signed, Gavey and Doliath - 20:59:34 on 31 Mar 99 GMT

Adam CRUMMY SPELLING :That'd be crumbs with a "B" - 21:00:29 on 31 Mar 99 GMT

Joette :CARL - I just saw a report from your stomping grounds....seems there is going to be a big party for "gays" on Easter Sunday, and the men in black with white collars are hopping mad. Have you been hearing much about it? - 22:54:37 on 31 Mar 99 GMT

Joette :ADAM - and mould with a "U"? - 22:56:06 on 31 Mar 99 GMT

sorry, I couldn't resist... :if any of you have a chance to see the video of this, I hope it makes you laugh as much as it did myself (Joette) - 23:04:23 on 31 Mar 99 GMT

Joette, About religion. This whole miserbable business reminds me of an old advert out of the 50's where this out of work comedian leaps out from behind the fruit and veg counter and sticks this mic in the face of a startled religious right wing fundamentalist house wife and asks, "Mame, can you tell the difference between stork and butter?" Now, I always thought that that was an easy one. Why, storks are those big birds that bring us our babies and butter is this yellow stuff that we spread on our toast. However, somethings are not so easily deciferable; Like Religion and shit! Can you tell the difference? - 23:33:47 on 31 Mar 99 GMT

Darrell :Joette, about religion . . . was my post - 23:51:47 on 31 Mar 99 GMT