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man is man-made.

Discussion Page Archives

Month of November '97

jaywilson :Yes. Is that OK? - 0:06:25 on 1 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:MELISSA- I suppose I would be a hawk. When prayer was reinstated in our school division, the children who did not care to participate were sent out of the room. I was there screaming that it should be the other way around. I also was there screaming that prayer should have stayed out of public schools. I also was there screaming about the religion class they started that gave the students one credit. The "religion" class was not a historical look at religion which would include all religions but an xtian only class that taught only xtian creed such as the bible. I walked the pro-choice line when this area's xtian pro-life army was out in the street. When the damn born-again music teacher decided that the xmas concert should be all about religion I started a petition. The end result was that she won her concert but about a dozen kids dropped out of it, including my own. I guess in short, I'm a hawk when religion starts affecting my life or my children's lives. I have no problem at all expressing my atheism although I get this look from people like I may have committed some kind of crime. But in that look is a little envy too. - 0:28:29 on 1 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- I was waiting for jee-zus and those winged angels all evening. I just didn't see them. I was thinking, if I were into drugs, there may be one that I could take that would effect my brain chemicals so I could "see" them or "feel" them. If I weren't so busy handing out bags of treats (and a leaflet of the atheist manifesto tucked into each bag), I'd fly down to Toronto on the broom and pay our favorite pain in the ass. - 0:35:01 on 1 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:Joette- Cont'd...a visit. - 0:36:30 on 1 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:ADAM-I loved that press on nails joke! - 0:37:21 on 1 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:Now on the death penalty! I'm with Joette on that one. I think it's barbaric! I do believe if someone will kill again then he/she should be incarserated (sp) for life. If that person can not endure a life term and if they choose to end their life then I think that person should be allowed to. BUT then again I think any person of "right mind" should be allowed to end their life. Saying that, has anyone heard about the "Latimer trial" here in Canada? - 0:41:33 on 1 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:CARL- Yup! Looks of bad cops but then again there are lots of good ones too. I saw that piece on tv where the cops were putting mace in the eyes of peaceful demonstrators. Terrible!!!!! - 0:44:32 on 1 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:-->jaywilson...s'all right with me if it's s'all right with you. I enoy your sense of humour. Where are ya from? - 0:54:34 on 1 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:-->MARLENE...were you serious about putting atheist literature in the goody bags? Will there be a burning at the stake in your town tomorrow? I am watching the history and evolution of Hallowe'en on the History Channel. Fascinating! - 0:56:34 on 1 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:-->MARLENE..I would like to hear your opinion on the Latimer case. His lawyer seems mighty confident this time around....I will let you know my opinion after I hear yours, because I might shock you.... - 0:58:21 on 1 Nov 97 GMT

jaywilson:Marlene, I want to get this right; do you think that any murderer is of "right mind", or just the ones who can't take life imprisonment? While I'm asking questions, is death by lethal injection or electrocution any more sophisticated or humane than death by hanging or guillotine? Or is all punishment by death barbaric? If this last statement is true, should a civilized society consent to a barbaric act (i.e. killing a "right- minded" murderer) because he/she requests it? Just asking. - 0:59:14 on 1 Nov 97 GMT

Atheist Larry:Atheist Larry:Marlene, nice to see words said by true Atheists re: the religious belonging out of the classroom, not in there with self-serving prayers to the alleged deities of James Dobson agitations. Writing from work here, have no return e-mail address yet. Atheist chat rooms are too frequented by biblio-terrorists. Anyone who lies about the burn in hell forever threat is no trustworthy person. Telling the truth about it is at least candid biblio-terrorism. 319 895 6652 - 1:04:06 on 1 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:-->jaywilson...many people feel that anyone who takes the life of another person is "sick" or not "right minded", but that isn't always the case. Society may consider the deed "sick", but the person committing isn't necessarily so. - 1:04:45 on 1 Nov 97 GMT

jaywilson:Joette, thank you for crediting me with a sense of humor. I just found this link thanks to Adam ACE, and it looks like fun. Unfortunately, I'm not much for chats, but this site has a comfort level I like. - 1:05:48 on 1 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:-->LARRY..not to worry; you would be surprised how many of us here post from work, so you will find people coming and out at all different times, day or night. If you want to see old posts here are the instructions (jaywilson, pay attention): after you hit the "add button" the address line will read "..cgi?show=30&user etc". You can change the "30" to any number you want. Sometimes you have to go back 100 posts to pick up where you left off. - 1:11:44 on 1 Nov 97 GMT

Atheist Larry:who cares to fight the "see you at the flagpole" brownshirts wanting to take over schoolgrounds for conformist prayers & "reclaiming AMERIKA for the alleged god?" Left my number above in note to Marlene ( 3 1 9-8 9 5-6 6 5 2 ) Now both to jay & marlene about barbarity of legalizing murder by jury, judge, injection, electricity, rope, etc. I must advocate the "voluntary" organ donations by convicted capital felons. This is the only way a life can be in restitution for taking life. - 1:13:50 on 1 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:--LARRY..that is what Jack Kevorkian wants to see done as well. I think he is a very intelligent person. - 1:18:25 on 1 Nov 97 GMT

jaywilson:Joette (& atheist Larry), I'm from New England. Convicted involuntary organ donors sound fine with me, although Mary Shelley took the concept to its entertaining extreme. Must dash, but a happy pagan holiday to all you freethinkers--I've a sacrificial chicken to grill for dinner. Will return soon; nice to meet y'all. - 1:22:54 on 1 Nov 97 GMT

Compassionate Larry:Joette, thanks...sorry all for the triple post, my sand glass was not visible & my mouse is sticking like glue. Just one other topic for all...genital mutilations: i.e. - routine infant circumcision or muslim amputations of clitoral & labial flesh... dozens of millions of children suffer this brutal never medically necessary torture. Even the "bris by a mohel" can be done without knife, & blood loss...the magic words are all that is necessary for religious conformity of believers...comments.? - 1:23:41 on 1 Nov 97 GMT

jaywilson...still vote for "voluntary," cause not that many "convicted" are without doubt really a fitting case for mandatory corneal transplants, a healthy blood donor, marrow, a kidney, etc...but! taxpayers are funding huge amounts of cigarettes, mail that is Harassing people (if not threats of arson, rape, etc. by conspirators or perpetrators ....this is a nice place alright....but eventually the biblio terrorists will sniff it out - 1:32:24 on 1 Nov 97 GMT

PETER:--Wonder what happened to all the members of the most recent--and particularly annoying wave of fundie morons? Must be outside their houses exorcising those evil spirits that came out today and infiltrated every dark corner of the earth--fine by me, and I'm sure fine by all the rest of the sensible people here--hope they stay out there. - 1:33:32 on 1 Nov 97 GMT

Grant:-- Nice to see the occasional string of atheist posts. CARL-- Were you joking about experimenting on the "lower life forms?" - 1:45:58 on 1 Nov 97 GMT

Atheist Larry:Peter...I really don't discriminate vs fundies & liberal religionists, unless one truthfully de- clares doubt on any faith concept. Our "fact based community" here Nov. 1 GMT isn't compatible with faith. Let's face it! Hell, prayer, alleg- ed bad gods/spooks & alleged good gods aren't "options" in any church but oxymoronic religious houses of Unitarian varieties...Besides, my older siblings are fundies & they're less numerous than "mainstream" religionists. We need to be fair. - 1:51:09 on 1 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:-->LARRY... I am not sure where you hail from, but here in Canada the act of female circumcision is not an indictable offense, however, it is not normally done so as to alert the police, so it goes on anyway. However, it is my understanding that this procedure is performed, not as a religious rite, but one that shows the women that they are merely chafe in the eyes of the men, and so they are mutilated so that they will never know the pleasure of sex. Do you have more information on this? Am I off base? - 1:56:21 on 1 Nov 97 GMT

Compassionate Larry:Grant, thanks...of course "lower life forms" are not our "rightful" objects for experimentation nor should life saving experimentation be completely abandoned. - 1:57:18 on 1 Nov 97 GMT

Larry:Joette...thanks for the Canada report, Patsy Schroeder (former member of congress) got a law signed by Clinton banning state funds & making it a crime in the US. You are understating the case. Minnesota has a state law ban also, credit to the American Atheist chapter now a member of Atheist Alliance. No protection for nonconsenting male babies, yet. Practice varies:50% or less E & W coasts, 60% in "heartland." Will be available for calls when I leave work for home..319 895 6652 - 2:06:54 on 1 Nov 97 GMT

Larry:everybody, please forgive the duplicate notes getting false error messages claiming can not be accessed by server or "security" - 2:09:46 on 1 Nov 97 GMT

Grant:A/C LARRY-- We get our own peculiar brand of fundies here, if of course that's if you don't consider them all peculiar.-- We have had not one little costumed creature at our door. What are we to do with all this candy? - 2:10:05 on 1 Nov 97 GMT

Larry:Grant...I am all for neighborly rituals of giving candy made more friends of GI's with war orphans than any well trained linguist. Though the mili- tary has done far more harm, than good, survivors do know the good intentions of rank & file vets. I am 45, USNavy...'71-'73 - 2:14:33 on 1 Nov 97 GMT

Grant:LARRY-- I am but 42, USNavy '73-'77. Maybe we could start a 40's, former sailor, atheist chat in this age of specialization. - 2:20:40 on 1 Nov 97 GMT

Adam CHARGE!:Carl, re: 150 posts back...To charge Murder at all (as opposed to manslaughter), you'd need to show intent to kill or to cause severe bodily harm. Perhaps that can be done in the case you describe. Now, allowing for variation among jurisdictions, Murder 1 almost always is relegated to PREMEDITATED HOMICIDE and, in some states, murder of a member of a particular protected class under certain circumstances (e.g. cops on duty) or particularly heinous non-premeditated murders, such as multiple homicides and torture-murders. - 2:22:28 on 1 Nov 97 GMT

Adam Addenda:I think you might be assuming that Murder 2 is some substantially reduced charge, a la manslaughter, but typically, it carries long-range sentences, and may go up to life imprisonment in some states under some circumstances. - 2:25:08 on 1 Nov 97 GMT

Larry Carter:Courage & good cheer to all, 'gospel' good news is no hell to fret, no heaven to beg for, no gods to inspect our toilets, no devil to protagonize the alleged deities...we need not dis-prove any reli- gious assertion...we are the true conservatives of fact, compassion & progress...the evil is done as the "moral" voices claim surviving a Roman execut- tion has any benefit to the proven living rational people...if we keep it up, day by day our millions will become billions, ... we are not going to lose - 2:26:28 on 1 Nov 97 GMT

PETER:--Atheist Larry--Whenever a new poster comes on , I can safely their arguments/claims are dealt with very directly and critically, but always in the spirit of fairness an diplomacy. However these paramters are almost immediately rejected, ignored and ridiculed by practically ever "fundie" who happens upon this page--with few exceptions. Almost immediatly after they feel even the slightest challenge to their beliefs, their reactions turn into insults, cajoling, ridiculing, mixed in with pleas for salvation and repentance. Logic and rational thinking are things which they deliberately avoid at all costs, and their method of debate is what I refer to a "Pee-Wee Herman Yes it is-No it's not-Yes it is, No it's not ( infinity )level of mentality. They receive the respect they earn--as does anyone else that posts here. I find their methods of communicating disappointing in the end, as I feel any person can learn something from anyone else--but I have yet to see--again with few exceptions--any fundie show any interest in learning anything which is outside tier belief system, and the only thing I have learned from any of them--other than the same overworked undigested slogans they repeat over and over again--is how a human mind can be infected, like some self-afflicted disease, when one commits himself to an unwavering commitment to these beliefs. If you don't believe me, stay around for a while and see for yourself. I am not exaggerating. - 2:29:26 on 1 Nov 97 GMT

Adam WELCOME JAY:Good to see you post here, pal. Hope the page doesn't disappoint. - 2:33:02 on 1 Nov 97 GMT

Adam ARMED & GANGENOUS:Larry: I question the blanket assertion that the military has "done more harm than good." - 2:37:37 on 1 Nov 97 GMT

Adam OOPS!:That pun was "Armed & Gangrenous." Sorry. P.S. BOO! :�o - 2:41:01 on 1 Nov 97 GMT

Larry:Peter...perhaps you mis-understood my point, your response is proof of my request: fairness bounded by equal treatment...ecumenical slogans are no less irrational that the nirvana nonsense of the buddhist...I am an equal opportunity American Atheist leader, religion belongs in the closet, not our scientific & educational critiques of all religions...if the believer goes back in there, we all could achieve progress to pluralistic vote outcomes instead of church control of the ballot - 2:42:25 on 1 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:-->Larry...could you please expand on your "American Atheist leader" statement? - 2:47:10 on 1 Nov 97 GMT

Adam FREE SILLY:--->Larry, when you say "religion belongs in the closet, are you asserting that individuals ought not be able to proselytize? I am an athe-activist, but would stand foursquare against such a position. - 2:49:45 on 1 Nov 97 GMT

Adam OOPS REDUX:I meant to close-quote after "closet" in that post. - 2:50:41 on 1 Nov 97 GMT

Patriot Iowa Larry Atheist Compassionate...:Adam...2/3 of native tribes are extinct on this continent...Andrew Jackson, General & President a prototypical "harmer"...General Eisenhower, used invasion to subdue the "got mitt uns" crowd in Europe but President Eisenhower signed McCarthy's bills for "In god We Trust." & the needless cold war. Our Iowa "corn diplomat" Roswell Garst is more responsible for overcoming Lysenko-ism in the Soviet Union than Trillion dollar Ronald Raygun....my salvo of facts for "more harm than good" - 2:50:46 on 1 Nov 97 GMT

Adam STARS & GRIPES FOREVER:Larry: In this country, in contrast to Latin American junta regimes of recent decades, the military merely is a tool for carrying out U.S. policy. If you have a disagreement with certain policy, then fine. I was just objecting to potential characterization of the military as inherently evil, when in fact the military ought to be amoral. - 2:56:40 on 1 Nov 97 GMT

Adam Addenda:there also appered to be a pot shot a Reagan, whose military expenditures were the single most important immediate factor in the demise of the Soviet Union and thus the Cold War's end. - 2:58:06 on 1 Nov 97 GMT

ADAM HAPPY SATAN DAY EVERYONE:I'm down for the count. Catch y'all in November =:�o BOO! - 3:03:26 on 1 Nov 97 GMT

Larry:Joette & Adam Free Silly......... My career, like many underemployed stage prof- essional, has been supported by odd jobs while I lobby government, speak in public forum, produce cable television talk shows, as recognized guest on radio talk shows & on air broadcast news TV activist, since the mid-70's...my peers, those 20- 30 women & men who marched with N.O.W., act-up, & liberal coalitions for peace, justice & freedom earned the title American Atheist Leader along with the dis-appeared Dr. Madalyn O'Hair, her son & daughter (adopted grand-daughter(birth dad Bill Murray (xian CIA operative in Central America))) & first born son of Madalyn Murray)...hope that informs you Joette.......Adam Free Silly, the 1st Amendment is not a license to terrorize or shout fire in a crowded theatre....proselytes of "hell" are doing worse & thus belong in a closet with "their kind" not the general public...anti-semitism has nearly become such a closet position yet majoritarian xian sermons daily radio & Sunday pulpiteering is getting a free ride much like Nazi anti-semitism got in Germany...I simply make a case that a "gentlemans agreement" be reached that christianity get into the closet as it's rabbi jesu states in his alleged words of Matthew (King James Version). - 3:06:52 on 1 Nov 97 GMT

Adam Addenda...surely you will self critique the bold propaganda statement that Raygun defeated the Soviets...hah! Just as Teddy Roosevelt is given credit for "busting trusts" Gorbachev will be historically credited for busting the apparatchic of the communist zealots covering for the KGB just as the splintering of American Labor was done by J Edgar Hoover...get real, we Americans can tell the truth about the frequent evil our police & National Guard does at Kent State etc etc etc... - 3:13:46 on 1 Nov 97 GMT

Tough Truth Larry:Adam...my spine still tingles for the Star Spangled Banner yet it is a war song...call a spade a spade...we are trained to protect the innocent with shield, sword, observation, prepar- edness, threat of force yet this never to be a euphemism for "foreign policy"...President Carter lost to the bible boy Raygun because of sand in helicopter motors derailed the hostage rescue... not because of blue collar democrats defecting, a virulent damn the torpedoes streak runs in reli- gious based voting...be careful when you repeat Rush Limbaugh slogans, that is his talent "on loan from god" - 3:21:40 on 1 Nov 97 GMT

Larry:hope we all can be effective outside of this choir in our cause of peace, prosperity & rational growth of public discourse - 3:25:43 on 1 Nov 97 GMT

anybody still here:good night, unless this slow pace picks up? - 3:27:20 on 1 Nov 97 GMT

Larry:2122 CST been nice, only one christer two hours ago, hope this live exchange lasts this weekend see everyone tomorrow about noonish - 3:31:14 on 1 Nov 97 GMT

Larry:2122 CST been nice, only one christer two hours ago, hope this live exchange lasts this weekend see everyone tomorrow about noonish - 3:31:26 on 1 Nov 97 GMT

Melissa:You point me in the direction of Jesus to find my spirit. Where's Jesus? and how come, if we all come from the same gene pool, i.e., Adam and Eve, how come homo sapiens still exists, since incest really isn't best, genetically speaking. Or do you deny genetics? And where oh where is my spirit to be found? Is it in my head, in my heart, in my feet, in my fingernails, OH OH maybe my eyelashes? - 5:40:39 on 1 Nov 97 GMT

Melissa ---} RICHARD:the above was of course meant for you. - 5:41:29 on 1 Nov 97 GMT

Melissa ---} RICHARD:the above was of course meant for you. - 5:41:55 on 1 Nov 97 GMT

mELISSA:sorry, AOL SUCKS!! - 5:42:38 on 1 Nov 97 GMT

Melissa:Marlene: Are you really willing to pay for some guy who's taken a human life with complete and utter disregard for the value of that life to just sit around, eat, work out and well . . . vej? Personally, I don't care to. Why should we respect the life of someone who has no respect for life him/herself? Yet I do see your point as well. I definitely think that if the person wants to die, then that person should be allowed to. It's really one of those grey areas though that has pros and cons that kind of balance each other out so its hard to decide which side weighs more. - 5:48:59 on 1 Nov 97 GMT

Melissa:I was just skimming through the last 200 posts since i last visited and well, DID SOMEONE SAY WE SHOULDN'T BE EXPERIMENTING ON ANIMALS???? If so, have I got a whole load of WHOOPASS to lay on you buddy!! But I'll refrain, just in case I read wrong. - 5:53:04 on 1 Nov 97 GMT

RICHARD:Melissa; I have encouraged you before, believe on the Lord Jesus Christ; but you will not. It really is a simple as that, but you abide in unbelief and whilst you do thatyou will NEVER be able to comprehend the truth about the spirit, Jesus or anything. The things of the spirit are foolichness to you and so you cannot understand them. I pointed you to John 3:16; I gave testimony how God saved me, but none of you will hear, and it is yourselves who OPPOSE (yourselves) You ask for answers to questions, yet the answer is as close to you as a 'breath' and yet you will NOT see it. - 7:00:55 on 1 Nov 97 GMT

PETER:----A small quote from Ayn Rand: "What is morality, or ethics? It is a code of values to guide man's choices and actions---the choices and actions that determine the purpose and of course his life. Ethics, as a science, deals with discovering and defining such a code. The first question that has to be answered as a precondition of any attempt to define, to judge or accept on any specific system of ethics, is: WHY does man need a code of values? Let me stress this: The first question is NOT: What particular code of values should man accept? The first question is : Does man NEED values at all--and WHY?"........I totally agree with Rand here, and identication of asking this question as a starting point when DISCOVERING a code of ethics was unprecidented. However, religious morals ignore this step--which renders any of its moral laws, in the end, as arbitrary--and meaningless. Certainly some morals will coincide with rational ones, such as fraud, stealing and murder--but it is by their very source that religion used as a moral guide will be rejected by any rational human being. - 14:48:49 on 1 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:MELISSA- I suppose I look at the death penalty with a mothers point of view so my view is very subjective. I empathize with both the mother of the victim and the killer's mom. I look at it this way. I would be very sad to have my child taken away from me by someone who murders. If I were the mother of the murderer I would feel my child should be kept away from the rest of society but I wouldn't want he/she to be killed. The theory out there is that if someone hits a child the child will more than likely hit when they become adults therefor violence begats violence. If someone kills and we kill them, what do the children learn? I think keeping the person away from the rest of society is a punishment in itself although punishment shouldn't be the objective. Safety for the mass should be. - 14:50:43 on 1 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:PETER- Very good post! If one hears these religionists right, the falling away from god would cause them to steal, murder or any of the socially unacceptable behaviors. One of their famous lines is that we atheist lack moral values. So untrue! I have more regard for society than they so without their delusion. - 14:56:03 on 1 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- I'm catching up on the posts I missed for the last few days. You asked me what I thought of the Latimer case. I agree with Latimer! If my child functioned at the level of a three month old for the rest of his/her life and would be in constant agony for the rest of his/her life then I would do the same thing. For two reasons 1). Where is this person's quality of life? If this were a wounded animal we would have enough compassion to end it's suffering. 2) As a parent, I would wonder what type of treatment this child would recieve after I was gone. Many such as this girl would be put in a bed in an institution and treated as if they were just skin and bones. I know that most here would likely disagree with this opinion but hey, I'm known here as mean Marlene! - 15:07:42 on 1 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene..please! not another scary Carrie!:LARRY- Although I'm an atheist hawk, I'm not an Atheist. I don't like nor want to belong to any type of organization. I do believe that one voice will be heard. Religious ideals will eventually be obselete with more education on how to think scientifically. I don't think we need to resort to organizations like religion or political parties. - 15:13:00 on 1 Nov 97 GMT

PETER:--MARLENE--Exactly. This is one assumption that the religionists repeatedly make--with absolutely no grounds--and I think it is a hideous assumption. They equate religion with morality, and if one abandons reigion, they abandon morality. Regardless of how often they are told this is just not the case, and in fact THEIR code ranges from the mistaken to the disastrous--they have great difficulty in understanding, and believing this is the case. They themselves are "kept in line" with the fear of eternal retribution, and are unable to envision a RATIONAL code of ethics--BASED ON REALITY. Actually it is this area that I really take exception to when debating with a theist--and this is why I have been posting exerpts from Smith's book that deal directly with this hideous misconception, and that it actually is IMPOSSIBLE to define a moral code on biblical doctrines that will reflect reality. But it doesn't matter-us atheists, regardless of how well-researched and defined any of our ethical codes may be--we are going to hell anyway. But I ask this: If God were fair, would he punish someone for being honest and reasonable? - 15:28:18 on 1 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:MELISSA- Yikes! I agree that the rest of the animal kingdom isn't out there for us to use as we please. Lay this stuff on me! - 15:59:02 on 1 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:PETER- Isn't it strange that the xtian god says "do as I say, not as I do"? - 16:00:23 on 1 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:-->MARLENE..re the Latimer case, I am going to shock you. Correct, his daughter was a pretty much a vegetable, and there are opposite views from medical experts as to the extent that she was suffering. The Latimers claim that she was in pain all the time. Their experts say that is so. The prosection experts claim there is no way to know if she was suffering because of her inability to express suffering, happiness, or any other type of normal human emotion. What she was, IMO, was a huge emotional and physical drain on the Latimer family et al, and to end their own pain and suffering Robert Latimer ended her life. He just couldn't take it anymore, and so he put her in the truck and asphyxiated (sp) her. I can relate to where he is coming from, believe me, but I would have rather seen him do the same to himself to end his own suffering. If she went to an institution, how she is she any different than those incarcerated for life? - 16:22:58 on 1 Nov 97 GMT

PETER:--MARLENE---And it's a darn good thing we don't do as he does!! He makes Attila, Stalin, Hitler, Saddam et al --combined--look like the fairy Godmother. - 16:33:10 on 1 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:-->PETER...I assume you are referring to the xtian god, and not Robert Latimer. - 17:11:26 on 1 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:-->MARLENE..some goods news! An M.P. from Newfoundland has entered a private members bill in parliament to abolish any and all religious based schooling in their province. Bad news, there is now a holy war being fought in cabinet, as the fear is that if Newfoundland can do away entirely with religion based schooling, then the other provinces will follow suit. I am sure the bill will get quashed before second reading. Too bad! There should be a referendum on the whole issue, since we are so good at referendums! (we've certainly had enough practise) - 17:14:58 on 1 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- You go Newfie's! Wouldn't that be wonderful! Re the Latimer thing. I know that it must have been a huge emotional drain on the family and it likely still is. I know that if I were to take this step, it would emtionally drain me wondering for the rest of my life if I maybe didn't do the right thing. But then again, I hate pain so I don't think I could let my children suffer years of it. It's quite the issue. All those against euthanasia will consider family members selfish for making that decision. It would be somewhat selfish to a point for me because when my kids feel pain so do I. - 17:46:21 on 1 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- OOPS! Forgot to answer the last question. I feel that those incarcerated for life, still do have quality of life. My friend's son is in jail. He can enjoy reading, watching TV, he works in the prison dairy, he has his health, etc. It may not be freedom but there is quality. He is in with lifers but has a six year sentence himself. - 17:53:10 on 1 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- I think I'm only half here today. As to a public vote on the religion issue, I don't know? It just may give the fundies more soapbox time. Since many people still fear hell for not believing in god they may vote for the religion just in case there really is a god. I think that the religious leaders that make their living off the sheep would br sure to "herd" them in the right direction. - 18:00:58 on 1 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:-->MARLENE..I am no enemy of euthanasia, but I think it should be left up to the individual if and when they want to end their life. For those that cannot make that decision, and informed medical opinion should be involved to help the family to decide. The Latimers had the option of a "do not resusitate" order if and when their daughter got that far along, but she never did, therefore, her condition was not such that she was medically ready to die. I have a great deal of compassion for the Latimers, but I wish they would have put her in a hospital. They refused to do that, as they must have thought it was a sign of failure for them. At the first trial, I thought the guilty plea was wrong, but after much consideration of the facts, I do not think the law is unjust if he is found guilty again. - 18:31:54 on 1 Nov 97 GMT

Bill..:I'm finally home and off again but have company (son home from college with friends, HELP!). I'll try to review some old post and respond after lunch maybe. On the topic of "morals", I think that "morals" and "conscience" go hand-in-hand and were evolved psyche paradigms that allowed man to interact with other humans and thus survive longer and not be hurt or killed by other humans. Religionists, such as Quake, think that some moral law or light, that shines within and presses the conscience to do right, governs conscience. Conscience is conscience and a part of higher intelligent life forms, whether one is religious or not. I personally don't need to go to church in order to be moral or have a conscience. Besides, what kind of a religious conscience "judges" other people? How can this "light" be "right?" - 19:02:26 on 1 Nov 97 GMT

RICHARD:Bill; All men have the 'knowledge of good and evil' and 'judgement' is made every day by everyone in various circumstances of life. It may be the judgement of parents in relation to their child/children, it might be in relation to your job, relationship with another AND in the COURTROOMS also. Judgement is necessary, and the knowledge of 'good and evil' which the conscience is aware of ( unless one has had their conscience seared as with a branding iron) that they cannot decide between right and wrong, or call good evil and evil good. It does NOT take much thoguht to recognise a thing like abortion to be murder; but many women who have abortions abort at the same time their (conscience, emotions) also. It is NOT only Christians who oppose abortion, but many in the community ( who hve no religion ) for their knowledge of good and evil tells them abortion is murder. It is those who reject this truth that kill the innocent and run to shed that blood. God will make inquisition for the INNOCENT BLOOD, and those who are guilty WILL give account at THE judgement. - 20:58:22 on 1 Nov 97 GMT

--->The Supreme Court of Canada ruled just yesterday that a fetus has no rights, therefore, under the law abortion is NOT murder. Listening to Richard's bullshit is more henious than a woman deciding what she can do with her body. - 21:42:04 on 1 Nov 97 GMT

Grant:MELLISA-- This is from I post of Carl's. I asked if he were joking. --- "Also, on the death penalty, since these people as the ret.are but low life forms anyway, lets experiment on them, then would they not pay back society in general? - 15:49:23 on 31 Oct 97 GMT" --- But I'd listen to your "WHOOPASS" anyway. :-) - 23:02:17 on 1 Nov 97 GMT

RICHARD:Since when did the court of men cancel out the Words of GOD ?? - 23:11:03 on 1 Nov 97 GMT

RICHARD:As I've said so say I again; every woman who causes the feotus to be aborted also aborts her emotions at the same time. She shall be known as a murderess and one who has diminished mankind. The womb which is given for life, has now been turned into a tomb for death. Such is the depravity of those who cannot LOVE. - 23:16:19 on 1 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:RICHARD: Splinter in your eye? - 23:45:38 on 1 Nov 97 GMT

Grant:--Sorry, Melissa, not Mellisa. - 0:06:12 on 2 Nov 97 GMT

Grant:ROB-- So what's with this Richard guy? Crossed wires? Speaking of "diminishing mankind!" - 0:11:20 on 2 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:On the Supreme Court of Canada ruling. This lady was from Manitoba. CFS was trying to lock her up to protect the fetus. I think the ruling came down as being that one can not be forced into treatment. The fetus was under three months at the time and NOT CONSIDERED BY LAW TO BE LIFE. The woman did stop her sniffing and had a healthy baby. There needs to be a more specific law. If after the three months the woman has decided to carry through with the pregnancy then the life of the fetus should be protected even if that means locking the mother up. - 0:36:41 on 2 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- Still on this thing and this will likely be a good subject for us to discuss as we do hope that eventually euthanasia will become legalized (at least I hope in my lifetime). I suppose my problem is still with this child's suffering. Although she was not quite ready to die yet, she was in pain. The doctors with our laws as they are wouldn't suggest that she would be better off dead I doubt. This can become quite an issue in the future. If I were dying of cancer and in pain every day but my judgement was impaired (not of sound mind), I would want my family to make the decision of lethal injection or something. - 0:44:53 on 2 Nov 97 GMT

RICHARD:Rob; NO the truth ! YOU people amaze me you really do. You deny and curse Christ and those who love Him, but when we teach the truth, OH well that's different, you love to grab the Bible and cite some text. You hypocrites ! - 0:46:04 on 2 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:-->MARLENE..re the ruling on the fetus: are you familiar with the case in Ottawa where a woman who shot herself (up the birth canal) in an effort to kill the baby. She had already reached term, and the baby was born with a pellet in its brain. She was charged with attempted murder, but also in that case she was found not guilty because the court also ruled that the baby, before it is born, is not considered a person, and therefore has no rights under the law. I don't think there will be anymore challenges to such cases in the future (e.g. the solvent sniffer). By the way, does it not sound like Richard thinks HE IS god? - 2:25:13 on 2 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:-->MARLENE...I think on the Latimer case we may to agree to disagree, okay? - 2:27:12 on 2 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:-->MARLENE..addedum..I say that only because I respect your opinion very much, and I am looking at the situation more personally than maybe I should. - 2:28:48 on 2 Nov 97 GMT

Grant:OPEN-- Try on this quote... "According to psychoanalysts, projection is the process of attributing one's own ideas, feelings, or attitudes to other people or objects- the guilt-laden adulterer accuses his spouse of adultery, the homo-phobe actually harbors latent homosexual tendencies. A subtle form of projection is at work when fundamentalists make the accusation that secular humanism and evolution are "religions" or announce that skeptics are themselves a cult and that reason and science have cultic properties,..." From 'Why People Believe Weird Things' by Michael Shermer. - 3:34:52 on 2 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:Here in beautiful Manitoba, we are experiencing one beauty of a snowstorm. All the teens are home as some of the roads are closed and I can't log onto the damn net! Most Fridays and Saturdays the lines aren't busy. Good thing there IS something on TV. A new NBC show called Sleepwalkers piloted tonight. Good sci-fi! Anyhow what I really wanted to comment on is that the fact that this is a woman's body on the topic of abortion isn't really getting to the nitty gritty. The nitty-gritty is when is the fetus considered life? - 6:33:38 on 2 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- From what I understand, the prolifers are getting ready to petition the govenment on the rights of the fetus after this ruling. In other words they are going to be on the war path to change the law on fetuses(sp). - 6:41:05 on 2 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:GRANT- I'd love to get that book! Maybe for Mythmas! - 6:43:03 on 2 Nov 97 GMT

Steven:ANY, ahhh, I am paying for a very joyous halloween. - 6:46:50 on 2 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:RICHARD: I couldn't give a shit about the bible, I was just trying to point out your hypocrisy in terms you might understand. "Depravity of those who cannot love" sounds mighty self-righteous from someone who completely ignores the turmoil that many women go through when considering an abortion. Regardless of whether you approve or not, it is no crime to show these women compassion instead of resorting to calling them "murderesses". I think it's funny you then have the audacity to call ME a hypocrite. - 8:45:57 on 2 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene..Goodmorning to all the atheists!:ROB- Does it not say in their damn bible "judge not lest you be judged"? Thank you for pointing out how difficult it is for women who need to make these decisions. We started our winter already. We're snowed in until the plow comes down our road. Yuck! I hate snow! - 13:05:02 on 2 Nov 97 GMT

Bill...:GRANT, We had severe weather here yesterday (tornado warnings) and I had to shut the computer down and watch football (poor me, ha!). I wish I had more time for postings but my time is limited. In reference to your post, I have posted on this before. I have observed that many times one sees in others that which he really sees in himself. When Quake posted here a couple of weeks ago trying to dispel the demons here, I responded to him by posting, "Because I care for your reality�Many times when people judge others, or see things in others (i.e. demons), they are in reality see that which is within them. Would this not apply to you Quake?" I think there is validity in your "projection" analysis. - 13:49:19 on 2 Nov 97 GMT

Bill..:MELISSA, I just reviewed your last post to me and I am reassured that we are not that far apart in our viewpoints. We just need to define what we are talking about better, I think. And like my post to Richard, I think we are hardwired for survival and self-interest. Morals and conscience are, IMO, a part of that survival. Religion, on a higher level of mind, can become apart of our psyche and desire for survival even after death. Thanks for clarifying and distinguishing the difference between freewill and consciousness. To clarify my use of Freudian terms such as Id, ego, etc, I would only say that I use these words to define a macro generalization that applies to the topic (religion vs no religion). This is not an endorsement of Freud's philosophy in general by me. These words are in the dictionary and I only use them as defined by the dictionary. Of course in my using generalized macro models, it appears as if I might be a Duelist, as these models imply a "closed system" (like my example of a chair in earlier posts) in the brain between Id and Ego etc. In reality on a micro level I agree with you that there is no actual distinction (as the chair in reality is not a closed system) which would go along with your Monism, right? And your right that religion is an emotional thing as this sight bears witness. This emotion, in which the basis is fear, is ego based on higher levels of the brain. We are not born with fear but, after experiencing the pain of this world, learn fear. It seems that new life forms (animals included) exhibit the emotion of love not fear. - 13:51:58 on 2 Nov 97 GMT

Bill..:RICHARD, Every rational person takes information in, evaluates it, and makes judgements as to what to do with this information. I am not talking about judgements pertaining to courts, children, families, etc. I am talking here about those adult religious people who come here and judge other people's morality and reality, when they should be focused on making their own life and morals better. What religion are you and why did you turn to religion? Have you always been religious? Are you not trying to impose your religious doctrine on those that post here? Why would you do this? Why do I have to follow your paradigm? Don't you have enough to handle, just keeping your own life in order? People that judge others are IMO beyond their realm of authority and have no right to do so. My morals and conscience are not dependent on a particular religion, but are based on survival and self-interests. Survival and self-interest are determined by the very nature of the universe, and is a denizen of higher levels of mind�hence your religion. - 13:52:49 on 2 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:MARLENE: I think it might have been ammended to "Judge lest not you want to go to a heaven full of aloof self-righteous gits" Anyway, I'm sure it's OK to be judgemental when you're right... BILL: Projection can probably happen in some cases, but not others. I.e Quake probably does have a degree of projection in his views, as he seems to compare non-christians to how he was before he became religious. I think it would be a little naive to say this happens in every case though (IMHO). - 14:03:21 on 2 Nov 97 GMT

Bill...:ROB, I agree and that's why I used the term "many times" in talking to Quake who had told us of his terrible past life which seemed to me to be the source of his demon reality. - 14:19:25 on 2 Nov 97 GMT

Grant:BILL-- ROB-- I think projection may be pretty common. Have you noticed that dishonest people trust nobody, and that honest people tend to trust everybody? Sometimes you can learn about people from what they accuse you of. - 14:55:49 on 2 Nov 97 GMT

Grant:MARLENE-- I just found the book yesterday but I like it so far. You probably know that Shermer is the editor of 'Skeptic' magazine. One thing that has me pondering is a chapter on Objectivism and Ayn Rand. He feels that there are signs of cultish behaviour.? - 15:01:52 on 2 Nov 97 GMT

Bill..:MARLENE, I suppose every place has its problems in terms of weather. We had pictures on the news last night of a large tornado in the waterway pass, which goes out to the Gulf of Mexico. Luckily none hit land or housing areas. Today is beautiful though, but cooler (60's), and I may cut some grass this afternoon. We usually (if at all) get our first freeze in late December. They're suppose to have a Jazz Festival out at the beach, so we may ride out there for a little while. At least you have the Internet, TV, and books there. Sometimes I wish I were snowed in with more time for reading, tv, internet, etc. - 15:02:22 on 2 Nov 97 GMT

Bill..:GRANT, I agree. Damn I'm agreeable this morning! What's wrong with me? Concerning Objectivism, I also have noticed that some followers seem to have a predilection towards making a religion out of this philosophy. Rand has many wise observations, as long as people don't treat them as the, "Gospel according to�." IMO. - 15:15:17 on 2 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:-->GRANT...as I have read everything ever written by Ayn Rand, I would like to add that if she were alive today, she would be appalled by any implication of a cult being associated with her. In the last week, I have posted some of her writing, and for those who took the time to read them, you will that they all state what is wrong with religion. There are conferences and such where Ayn Rand's work is read and discussed, but there are no "Ayn Randies" out there. Her philisophies are clear, concise, and make a lot of sense, so it more than one person tries to follow them, so be it. - 15:26:37 on 2 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:--->BILL..and I am damn disagreeable this morning! On the matter of Ayn Rand, you yourself have admitted that you have not read any of her writings, so it would be appreciated, until you do, that you not throw your two cents in. You have no knowledge of this subject whatsoever, so go back to playing scientist, looking for your goddamn cosmic intelligence. - 15:28:55 on 2 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:--->BILL...see if you understand this: "An intellectual movement does not start with organized action. Whom would one organize? A philosophical battle is a battle for men's minds, not an attempt to enlist blind followers. Ideas can only be propogated by men who understand them. An organized movement has to be preceded by an EDUCATIONAL campaign, which requires trained-SELF-TRAINED- teachers (self trained in the sense that a philisopher can offer you the material of knowledge, but it is YOUR OWN MIND that has to absorb it.) Such training is the first requirement for being a doctor during an ideological epidemic-and the precondition of any attempt to "change the world." Ayn Rand. Now Bill, if you think I am a "Randie", then you are a "Hawkingie". - 15:40:04 on 2 Nov 97 GMT

Bill..:JOETTE, Sorry to disagree, but I have read her writings. Where did you get this notion from? - 15:43:11 on 2 Nov 97 GMT

Grant:JOETTE- I have problems with the thought that Objectivists exhibit cultish behavior. The thought is new to me, but I do feel that nothing is above scrutiny. Objectivism has taken it's licks in the past and probably will continue to do so. It's time for me to read some Rand. I haven't read any for ten years or so. - 15:50:36 on 2 Nov 97 GMT

Bill..:JOETTE, Did I say you were a Randie? Why do we need as you say, "Such training is the first requirement for being a doctor during an ideological epidemic-and the precondition of any attempt to "change the world." Ayn Rand."? Yes, why do we need to change the world? Why don't we, each one of us, concentrate on changing ourselves? Don't you think that we have enough people out to change the world? - 15:53:52 on 2 Nov 97 GMT

PETER:--BILL--I have to agree with Joette on this one, not just because it's Rand she is defending, its because it appears she is more aware of one of the central isssues of Objectivism. I may seem very "Randidan" to some, only in that the subject matter which is a concern on this page, reiligion/atheism, is an issue which is of a direct concern of objectivism, and as far as I am concerned, Rand makes the best argument of any philosopher in history--including Kant, Marx, Hume, Neitzchse, Russell or Flew. Although Rand tried to "sell" her philosophy to the public--one thing she insisted upon was that " the first thing sacrificed with conformity is reason"--and reason was the thing she fought for more than anything. So if one follows Rand blindly--which are the very ingredients of a religion or cult( as Joette pointed out ) that in itself would not reflect the goals of objectivism. This is what I was trying to explain to Carrie Drake--with virtually no success. Why is it that when someone quotes or believes a certain philosopher or scientist, or whatever,--they automatically are labelled or looked upon as someone with out a mind of their own?( Which incidentally is ANOTHER action Rand advocated ) Rand also pointed out that there are hundreds of little saying people use everyday that have worked themselves into our everyday language that at one time came from a philosopher, but most people cannot identify the source. So why is it then, if someone CAN identify thier source they are seen as a member of a cult. Rand also invited rigourous critical scrutiny--not a cult-like feature by any means--and as she was an advocate of reason--she felt it was always on her side--as she refused to abandon it. Maybe there are people who "foolow her" like a cult, but again --as Joette pointed out--they would then not be cognizant of her philosophy. - 15:59:54 on 2 Nov 97 GMT

Bill...:PETER, I'm not accusing anyone here of making a religion out of Objectivism. I only used the word "predilection." My use of this word is to indicate that Objectivism CAN be made into a religion depending on the individual. To me it would be wrong to replace one belief system paradigm "religion" with another "objectivism" that was somehow packaged and sold to the people. I personally enjoy reading her writings and have no problem with them. She is very rational and logical with what she says. - 16:11:13 on 2 Nov 97 GMT

PETER:--BILL--Rand didn't like the way things were going, and although using the term "change the world" smacks of delusions of grandeur--the ONLY method that she ever recommended was precisely as you said--people have to change themselves--it must come from within. Rand's message was just to TELL people that this is the only way. She just took it upon herself--whether she was qualified or not is debatable--to TELL people this can be the only way. - 16:11:27 on 2 Nov 97 GMT

Rob (Who is feeling positively Randie this afternoon):JOETTE: I've never read any Rand, so I daren't put my two penny'th in! On a personal level, I don't really want to "change the world", nor impose morals, as in a few hundred thousand years the human race will almost certainly have died out. Being human though, I do react to certain things in certain ways (like getting pissed of with people like Ric-hard-of-heart), so I do what I have to so as to get on with my life. Does anyone else share this view? Or do you think there is something more absolute about "morality" than just animal characteristics? - 16:13:32 on 2 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:-->BILL...what have you read of hers? It is you yourself that stated many months ago that you were not that familiar with her writings, so please tell me what you have read. - 16:15:10 on 2 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:-->ROB..Peter has responded to the part about "changing the world". Now, if you didn't scroll through posts that are more than 10 lines long, you would be able to say that you have read some Rand. If anyone has read her stuff, you know that she is a pure advocate of INDIVIDUALISM, and she had not intention of changing the world, except maybe to get rid of collectives, communism and the like. - 16:18:15 on 2 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:PETER: I think I would be inclined to regard "change" as a subconcious phenomena, which is why I have more faith in the human race than many. As human intellectual standards rise, things such as religion will die a natural death, which appeals to me more than the idea of "killing it off". - 16:18:25 on 2 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:JOETTE: Hey! Easy tiger >) I have stopped that policy of scrolling now the fundies have gone, so I am ready to enter the big wide world of Ayn Rand. BTW PETER: Before going on the defensive, that last post was not a challenge, more an extension to Rand's notion of change. - 16:22:25 on 2 Nov 97 GMT

Bill..:JOETTE, That was a very long time ago that I made that statement. You must not have read many of my post to Peter, many months ago, when we discussed the book, "Objectivism: The Philosophy of Ayn Rand by Leonard Peikoff." I read and discussed this book with him at his recommendation. And I have read posts from you and others here on her writings. She has some good writings, no doubt and I have posted similar viewpoints to hers many times. - 16:27:23 on 2 Nov 97 GMT

Bill..:PETER, And I agree that any worthwhile change must come from within at the choice of that individual. Stimulating and motivating constructive dialogue, however, might precede this. - 16:32:22 on 2 Nov 97 GMT

Bill..:JOETTE, Why do you support this philosophy with such passion? - 16:42:44 on 2 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:PETER and JOETTE- I also haven't read very much of Rand or Smith(maybe another Mythmas gift) but I really enjoy reading your postings that you've taken the time to do for us. I don't see any type of cultish behavior on this site although Grant is likely right, a sheepish cult can form around anyone. I'm sure there are Hawking cults, Freudian cults, TM cults, etc, etc. Most atheists are not sheep though and I see no sheepish behavior by atheists on this discussion. BILL- No, I'm not reading books. I've decided to make the mythmus cake, stew and homemade buns so that is keeping me busy. ROB- I'm not sure as the human species will terminate in a couple of hundred thousand years but I think we just may be very different creatures. I also think you're right. After this millenium garbage is over, the religionists will die out. - 17:05:51 on 2 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:MARLENE: Of course I am not certain either, but it only takes a misguided comet or deadly virus and earth will be back to cockroaches ;) Yes, something may evolve (again), but my point is that humans are not the be-all and end-all of life. As for religion, that may take hundereds of years to subside, but at least it is becoming more mellow in its old age. - 17:16:39 on 2 Nov 97 GMT

Bill..:MARLENE, I've got to go cut some grass. I don't know which is better, "cutting grass" or "shoveling snow?" Work sucks, right? - 17:16:57 on 2 Nov 97 GMT

PETER:--MARLENE---Of course many do flock sheepishly around a certain person just as you say, but my motives here were to nip off-in the bud-any insinuation here that I anticipate Bill to make, in his initibable fashion of innuendo, that I am a "blind follower" of Rand. Admittedly, I may be overreacting in a defensive manner here, but I think Rand's findings are correct in many facets, and I do agree with her in many areas such as reason, government, and ethics--and I will defend her philosophy in these areas--as I think her arguments are strongest here. But I certainly do not follow her blindly--or anyone else--unless I know fully what their arguments are. And yes BILL--ONSTRUCTIVE dialogue must proceed worthwhile change. - 17:29:33 on 2 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:ROB- Agreed! Bill-Come shovel some of the damn stuff and I'm sure you'll choose to cut the grass. PETER- So far, everything you or Joette have posted on Rand makes sense to me. - 17:35:47 on 2 Nov 97 GMT

jaywilson:Grant: watch out in projecting 'projection' to what may be an illogical extreme; just because we often project our fears, failings, and concerns onto others--where they may be seen by more objective observers--the interpretation of that act does not lend itself to much more than a psychic parlor game on our (observers') part. Still, when a televangelist speaks of morality, I hear some carnival barker shouting "Live Naked Coeds!" Bill: I doubt that any animal is born to/in love, only to learn hate. Those two words--just like God, mom, America, and freedom, among so many others--are actually catch basins (dare I say storm drains?) for personal emotional investment over the millenia, from which we draw scant nourishment, let alone definition. Love and hate as nouns act more like the prefatory "Dear..." in a letter, or the concluding "Sincerely yours." We read into them what we wish (Grant--now this is projection!). We should use those words less and actually describe our emotions more clearly. Alas, a Hallmark card is easier than a letter, and there's the rub. Politeness is such dishonesty. On cults: a common Zen koan says, "When you meet the Buddha on the street, kill him." - 17:45:21 on 2 Nov 97 GMT

Grant:JAYWILSON-- I was originally trying to speak to the behavior of Richard. Your point is taken. - 17:57:47 on 2 Nov 97 GMT

jaywilson:GRANT and BILL: please see my previous post; I neglected to use the prerequisite capitalization of your names to get your attention. Thanks. - 17:58:49 on 2 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:BILL: I'm currently preparing a talk on black holes and the information paradox, which I think you will find interesting. When I've finished it, I'll share the saliencies. As a taster, though, scientists (other than Hawking) have suggested a model in which, to *outside* observers, information never actually enters the black hole, it just gets squashed on the surface, then re-radiated as the black hole evapourates. This not only resolves what would have been an inconsistency between Quantum string theory and Relativity, but also gives us some experimental verification of string theory (as it correctly predicts the frequency of Hawking radiation just like QM predicts the frequency of radiation when electrons change energy levels). JOETTE: I thought you'd enjoy that! I am off to go see my friend, who is having dinner in college with the Queen's sister (no shit!). I told him to ask her if she wants to come watch Pulp Fiction with us afterwards. - 18:00:28 on 2 Nov 97 GMT

Grant:JAYWILSON-- Adam speaks of people projecting human traits on the universe. Whadaya think? - 18:15:53 on 2 Nov 97 GMT

jaywilson:GRANT: Shoot, and I had just loaded the car for a trip to the dump. I trust you and Adam are not talking about the constellations, Ptolemaic vs. Copernican theories, and the like. Or are you? Seems to me all observation is solipsistic; the man with the most powerful telescope will someday view his own behind. But I could be wrong. Now I am going to the dump. But I'll be back. - 18:23:32 on 2 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:-->BILL..maybe I am pissed off 'cause I'm at work instead of doing things I would rather be doing, but if you have only read Leonard Piekoff's collection of her essays, then you still haven't read Rand, and therefore still have no authority on the subject. The reason I am so passionate about this is because I am tired of people either misunderstanding, misquoting or speaking with no expertise on the subject of Rand. It would be the same if you came here spouting rhetoric about anything that is obvious to the reader you know nothing about. (I am using the word "you" as an example; this is not a personal attack) - 18:52:22 on 2 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:-->ROB..have your friend say "hey" to Maggie for me! - 18:53:44 on 2 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:JOETTE: I was toying with the idea of hanging around, playing Morrissey's "Margaret on the guillotine" on my portable stereo. They might chuck me in the tower though ;) - 18:56:30 on 2 Nov 97 GMT

jaywilson:GRANT: There. I'll venture that the sole aim, if not purpose, of mankind is to impose itself to the farthest reaches of its senses--or their technological extrapolations. Mars Pathfinder is a beer can left by a tourist; Voyager is a robotic town crier sent yowling, "We're here (too?)!" But let's not forget the microcosm; isn't finding the elusive sub-atomic particle, the GUT, or the truth behind Creation the same drive that launched "Kilroy was here"? What is, in the end, more important--the cat, knowing the status of the cat, or knowing that it belonged to Schrodinger? I think they're all the same. Pardon the convoluted reply, but I get goofy that way. - 19:03:18 on 2 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:JWILSON- Did you capitalize "creation" to get out attention? - 19:06:26 on 2 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:JWILSON- So..you believe that only yourself exsists? The only reality is what you observe, there is no objective reality but only subjective reality? - 19:13:45 on 2 Nov 97 GMT

j(J?)aywilson:MARLENE: No; just that a momentous event such as that which caused--and perhaps allows--us to be here deserves proper noun status. Similarly, I appreciate the capital M in Marlene. But I'm teasing. - 19:15:18 on 2 Nov 97 GMT

Bill..:ROB, Please send it to me at Send2Bill@AOL.com I would like to read your paper. JAYWILSON, When observing new life forms, I always feel the feelings of love. I think that this emotion is a denizen of our deterministic nature. I sense no fear or hate at all. The very young have no fear of death and thus have to be watched very close so they don't fall victims to their actions. Only after experiencing pain do they develop fear and their brain becomes programmed to be sensitive to that which causes them pain. IMO fear and anger are increasingly learned and developed emotions that start after right after birth. Perhaps Melissa can shed her knowledge on this subject. - 19:17:06 on 2 Nov 97 GMT

Bill..:JOETTE, I don't claim to be an authority on any subject here. I am only offering a personal opinion here, which may be wrong from time-to-time. Sorry you have to work. I gotta go for now. - 19:24:49 on 2 Nov 97 GMT

jaywilson:MARLENE: Careful now; I'd be a fool to deny your existence--but if I were not writing to you at this moment, you would fade from my reality in time. I disdain the terms objective and subjective to describe reality; there is only the recognition of object by subject to test the existence of any reality whatsoever. Surely at the gravitational and electromagnetic levels there must be some mutual "awareness" by the denizens/particles/masses therein. In short, I don't get too worked up about reality; it's there whenever I want it. Solipsistic enough? - 19:24:53 on 2 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:BILL: Shall do -It's not a paper though. It's an exercise in oral skills (I had to find an article, turn it into a lecture and then I'll have to present it to a group of physicists). Interesting point about love/fear- but I would hardly elevate it into a universal purpose (and don't worry, I'm not inferring that you were either). - 19:28:16 on 2 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:SO..JayWilson..what are you saying? You believe there is/was a creator? - 19:53:29 on 2 Nov 97 GMT

jaywilson:MARLENE: You're writing to one of them. - 19:54:55 on 2 Nov 97 GMT

Peter:--jaywilson--Clarity is the antidote for confusion--and confusion is the enemy of purposeful thought. Now, are we going to see some clarity in your posts in the very near future? Be rest assured--so far, you aren't impressing anyone. - 20:35:31 on 2 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene..little kids..sheesh!:JayWilson- As Peter has said, "Cute!" but let's cut the bullshit. The first time I've posted to you is today at appox. noon my time. The clock is ticking on the 72 hour limit. If you've said nothing like you have so far then I won't waste my time. - 20:41:48 on 2 Nov 97 GMT

PETER:--MARLENE--That 72 hour limit may sound arbitary to some, but I certainly think it's giving plenty of slack for anybody---it certainly has a definite "ring" to it--I like it! - 21:38:06 on 2 Nov 97 GMT

Grant:JAYWILSON-- Now I liked that response about "the farthest reaches of its senses," and stuff, in fact I thought that was a great response to the question. However, I too would like a little more clarification on "Surely at the gravitational and electromagnetic levels there must be some mutual "awareness" by the denizens/particles/masses therein." I mean, is this a gut feeling type thing? - 23:00:52 on 2 Nov 97 GMT

RICHARD:Grant; You mentioned in your recent post 'the behaviour of Richard' I do NOT know which of my posts you refer to for I have not had opportunity to enter here for some time; having been busy preaching the truths of Scripture to a group of wonderful folks last evening (SUNDAY) Itis Monday morn 10:40 AM here in Australia. However I have NOT given any ground in my stand for the Gospel and the truth that Jesus is Lord, neither wil I give ground to the truth that God IS, no matter how many Atheists line up to oppose me. I was amazed recently when an avowed Atheist, who being irate over something I had posted, had the unmitigated (gaul) to cite Scripture, yet denying God. It is the habit of some Atheists to curse and swear at Christians, but should the Christian give a defence oh horror, that's NOT allowed! and the Atheists then love to handle a Scritural text from a God whom they deny. This is likened to a ring of gold in a swines nose. So if offence is given then it the offence that some atheists take, not offence that I give. Similiar to those who were offended at the very words of Jesus himself. The hearers could NOT take the truth that Jesus spoke, so too for many here. - 0:02:26 on 3 Nov 97 GMT

RICHARD:Rob; You spoke of religion becoming 'mellow' in it's OLD AGE' I do not know if you refer to all religion or that true way, 'Christianity.' But as far as Christianity is concerned, it has not become 'mellow' but it has and is becoming 'apostate' and filled with teachings of devils, and is sleeping with the 'world' even denying God who has called them to repentance and a live of holiness. However myself and many other Christians do NOT align with such apostacy and we preach that same gospel as in the early church, 'repent and be cleansed of your sins by the precious blood of Christ' This is the clarion call to ALL, for God commands ALL men everywhere to repent and believe on His Son, by whom he shall judge the world' - 0:09:10 on 3 Nov 97 GMT

Grant:RICHARD-- Are you willing to suspend the proselytizing for a short time and talk about what atheist do believe, and why your approach here is actually detrimental to your goals? - 0:45:45 on 3 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:RICHARD: Firstly in your Post to Grant, I presume that was aimed at me. If so, I would direct you to my response which you obviously must have missed. With regards to "mellowing", I was referring to us not burning witches at the stake anymore. Goodnight. - 0:58:56 on 3 Nov 97 GMT

RON...(down Marlene, down)...ALL: Greetings my fellow humans. How is life out there? Life SUCKS from where I see things. If there is a all-powerful FOG watching down over us I hope he sees what a complete mess he/she/it's made of my crazy relationship between my wife and I. I would have never guessed a caring woman with a college degree could sink so f*cking low. I've had more respect for floating duck sh*t. My house will go back to the bank, I'll have to put all my belongings in storage and my son, my beautiful son will only be held in my arms two days a week. I HATE LIFE now...right now...if I had the power to blank life off the face of the Earth, I'd press that button. If I ever run for President, don't vote for me. - 1:01:11 on 3 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:Let's all write to Andy Rooney at 60 Minutes and let him in on the biggest discovery of the century or the millennium for that matter, NOTHING FAILS LIKE PRAYER - 1:09:59 on 3 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene...:RON- You need to loose your conscience to run for president. Life sucks sometimes but, hell, enjoy it anyway. It's the only one you get! It's not the amount of time you spend with Ian, it's the quality. I'm sure he looks forward to Dad coming! - 1:14:39 on 3 Nov 97 GMT

RON...--->MARLENE...: Yes, Ian and I have fun. We were at a huge park for 4 hours today, we did everything. (32 minutes till X-Files) I know, I know, everyone says "It'll get better", well, shit when does it start getting better???? I have an offer to rent a room from a friend (female) I have at work for $200 less a month than an apartment. I'm thinking of taking it. I don't need much space. I think PRAYER actually works. I don't know how it works yet but it does. Nature and a deep hidden need seem to put things together and makes life come to you. I've been praying for the *courage, knowledge, and strength* to help my wife come back home. I have found the courage and knowledge, and the strength will come thru time allowing her to see I'm a changed soul and know where I went wrong. But, she still has to want to come home, and soon home will be gone for us both. I'm going to continue to pray for us both. - 1:43:04 on 3 Nov 97 GMT

RiCHARD:GRANT; My 'aproach' as you put, is simple. There is a God mad known by the creaion, there is the Son the Lord Jesus whodies for your sin and rose from death. These thngs are true and it doeos NOT matter what arguments any atheist puts up, they are wrong ! God is and the gospel true, thst's the point. All arguments against the truth are useless ! You atheists declare that there is 'NO GOD' well YOU PROVE THAT TO ME ! but you cannot. I say that God is known by the creation and also by His Son, what are you people going to show me that God is NOT ? You cannot and how that must cause you great anguish indeed. - 4:27:24 on 3 Nov 97 GMT

RICHARD:Marlene; The fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much. - 4:29:47 on 3 Nov 97 GMT

Terry:-Richard-You spoke of preaching your message to some wonderful folks. What are you going to tell their friends and relatives when those wonderful people start cracking up from the effects of Xian mind control. Here in North America the 'born agains' are having breakdowns faster than institutional 'homes' can be built to hold them. What bible verses do you use to comfort their relatives? What comforting verse do you dredge up when a young person kills himself because he thinks he has committed the unforgivable sin? What do you tell the husbands, wives, and children of families that have broken up because of Jeezus? - 4:33:40 on 3 Nov 97 GMT

Grant:RICHARD-- That's what I thought. - 4:44:11 on 3 Nov 97 GMT

Darryl:You know it' amazes me that you humans actually believe their are two beings in the sky or space, somewhere. And the one I'm supposed to be worshipping the one whose losing and can't get rid of his archenemy the "D"evil. If there is a god he's a lousy one - 7:14:44 on 3 Nov 97 GMT

Jason:Hello all. I thought I would check in again (it has been QUITE some time since my last post). Only a few of you will remember me. RON: Sorry to hear about your situation. Shit-city man. Marlene, good to see your text again! - 7:53:24 on 3 Nov 97 GMT

the hammer:hello Peter Bond you are a goon boy who is a little bit wacky in the head so go and jump onto so go and jump on the roller coaster of love and life. D`know what I mean - 9:02:28 on 3 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:the hammer: Huh? - 9:05:08 on 3 Nov 97 GMT

jaywilson:GRANT: You are right; I do have a "gut [GUT?] feeling type thing", as you put it, about the "awareness" any two objects have of each other--whether it be the minute change of orbit by our Earth when an asteroid enters its "space" or the repulsion of a positively-charged particle by a negatively-charged one. But I'm out of my league here; however, thanks for asking. MARLENE: Too bad my "bullshit" wastes your time. PETER: I'm not out to "impress" anybody. - 10:57:54 on 3 Nov 97 GMT

PETER:--jaywilson---Hey, that's a little better! - 12:30:55 on 3 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:jaywilson: Well you might actually be closer to the truth than you realise. Quantum "action at a distance" requires particles to be aware of eachother instantaneously, which is modelled by a "quantum handshake", with messages going forward and backward in time to give the impression of their being instantaneously connected. - 12:48:18 on 3 Nov 97 GMT

Terry:-Rob-Is it not true that the Everett multi-universe interpretation of Quantum mechanics does not require particles to be 'aware' of each other instantaneously? Correct me if I'm wrong. - 13:22:30 on 3 Nov 97 GMT

Grant:JAYWILSON-- No, you're not out of your league here. I think that anyone who posts here should be willing to state what their beliefs are. If you have pantheistic beliefs , or other religious beliefs that's fine, but I would like them stated up front. Can't speak for the others. Gotta go. - 13:50:06 on 3 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:Terry: Yes, but even in that model, the observations of the EPR experiment sill give the impression of "instantaneous awareness". Multiverse theory is not that popular though, and I daresay Bill will want to pull out his Occam's razor when he hears it mentioned... - 13:52:58 on 3 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:Terry: BTW, that response is only what my current understanding would have me write. I am no theoretical physicist (yet ;) - 13:55:33 on 3 Nov 97 GMT

Carl:MARLENE: I take it you saw the Rooney segment of 60 min.? I find it amazing that from a whole country{s}that he did not refer to one thoughtfully composed letter written by a religious person. It continuously amazes me that those people do not think, just like the ones that show up here. They do so even after assorted doc's are pointed out to them that make their faith as it is. That ANDREW from downunder,[had dinner at a place called the "Outback Steakhouse" with an Australian decor the dishes were good.]wonder if he checked out that Aussie site I referred to him. But, you've checked in on his site, it is safe to say that ANDREW has not looked into what he places in his site. Elsewhere, I have seen reports made by Papias that said a person who was jc lived a long life after and did only what any other man does. I do not recall the other particular church patriarch who reported the same story. The Hitler line about big lies being better, it was said by one of the writer/designers of the Augsberg confessions where the three headed god thing is\was refined. If I can locate that passage I will URL it. - 15:44:13 on 3 Nov 97 GMT

Steven:MARLENE, we haven't seen Quake in a while, mabey he got the hint. Although I am starting to believe that Quake and Richard are one in the same. The drival sounds similar anyway. Did you have a good weekend. - 15:50:27 on 3 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:JAYWILSON- Thank you for answering on your beliefs. This discussion has been bombarded by born agains in the last few weeks. Some start off here with the idea that entropy proves a creator etc. etc. I apologize if I had your number wrong. I still am asking though, do you believe in a creator of the universe (conscious creator)? - 15:56:55 on 3 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:GOODMORNING STEVE and CARL-- I don't think quake and richard are one and the same as quake is from toronto and the other dingus from down under. Both are lacking in grey matter. Poor Andy, all those people praying for him (or against him), bet he can't sleep at night! - 16:02:19 on 3 Nov 97 GMT

Carl:BOOK-REPORT: The books' title "Approaches to God" author- Jacques Maritain. Its out of touch, why? The views are those based on midieval theologic philosophy and the caveman logic of Aristotle. Of its good points, well, the author does not refer to any messenger[s] nor offspring. The closest Maritain got was mentioning manmade references to conduct becoming of the spirits' needs, but here as I pointed out the thought pattern was medieval. If these visiting mystics read it or even subsequent versions of it, perhaps then that explains their wacky way of thinking. Surely, I refuse to accept, no living creature can be as idiotically stupid with the composition of their views as the mystic-visitors at this site. - 16:12:03 on 3 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:CARL- Is this a book written when? Is he a philosopher? - 16:24:54 on 3 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:PETER, where are you??? JOETTE- where are you? As for me, I'm still snowed in but I hear the plow is on it's way. - 16:26:40 on 3 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:JASON- Hi, how are you! I warn you, don't walk the streets of downtown Toranta! - 16:39:37 on 3 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:MARLENE: Howdy, partner. I will warn you in advance that I invited someone called MikeW over from theo chat (he's an xtian), and I think he should be a little more reasonable than Quake and Dicky, so be nice (aren't you always ;) - 16:48:45 on 3 Nov 97 GMT

Carl:MARLENE: It is volumne one of a series of books coyrighted in 1954, Harper and brothers publisher. Jacques Maritain was a philosopher out of France, reportedly he was well versed in Aristotelianism and medieval theology. By the way he explained these approaches, he surely must have been one who could stuff a fish in the right side of his mouth while spitting it bones out the left side of his mouth. - 17:25:20 on 3 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:CARL- Thanks! ROB- I fail to understand why these guys want to come to an atheist discussion. If he starts preaching, I will be less than nice. I've had about enough of these idiots for this year. At one time there were none of them. There may have been a few agnostics but not many xtians. I don't think we'd wnat to turn this into another of the numerous xtian chats. - 18:06:52 on 3 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:ROB- PS- if Mike whatever comes, quake will follow along with a number of others I'm sure. If this discussion wants to be trashed as it has been in the last few weeks, it will happen. I think Peter is forever sorry he made the move to invite quake. - 18:09:55 on 3 Nov 97 GMT

PETER:Continuing with posting exerpts from George H.Smith's book: ATHEISM : The Case Against God"--I will briefly reprise what io posted on Friday from the section in his book fealing specifically with ETHICS< RATIONALITY, AND RELIGION: ".... The general neglect of this issue ( ethics ) by philosophers is responsible for much of the confusion and disagreement that now exists among ethical theorists, who attempt to discuss ethics without considering WHY they are discussing ethics. No philosopher is more keenly aware of the importance of this problem than Ayn Rand,and it constitutes the general framework for her essay 'The Objectivist Ethics'--says Rand;' What is morality, or ethics? It is a code of values to guide man's choices and action's---the choices and actions that determine the purpose and course of his life. Ethics, as a science, deals with discovering and defining such a code. the first question that has to be answered, asa precondition of any attempt to define, to judge or accept any system of ethics, is : WHY does man nned a code of values? Let me stress this: The first question is NOT: What particular code of values should man accept? The first question is: Does man need values at all--and if so, WHY?' Philosophers who fail to consider this issue usually conclude that ethics has no FOUNDATIOPN IN FACT ( bold letters mine ). that the realm of values is forever separated, by logic, from the realm of facts. Ethics, they declare, is concerned with what OUGHT to be the case, while science is concerned with what IS the case; and the normative recommendations of ethics cannot logically be derived from the descriptive statements of science. consequently, two theories of ethics have enjoyed considerable vogue in the past few decades; emotivism, according to which ethical judgements are mere emotional expressions and therefore lack cognitive content; and suibjectivism, according to which ethical judgements have meaning, but this meaning is nothing more than a report of one's personal, subjective preference ( i.e. Quake, Richard and the like ) Both of these theories and their off shoots uphold the radical cleavage between facts and values, and they have elevated the so-called " is-ought dichotomt" to the status of modern dogma.'....more to come - 18:22:33 on 3 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:MARLENE: Whoa! Don't worry, he's no preacher (in fact he doesn't like Quake or Richard much either), but I think it would be a bit sterile if there were no-one to stand up for theism. The only reason I did invite him is because I did not once see him preaching, and he doesn't seem the type that needs to invite all his friends. I think he is just interested in what makes atheists tick, which is not a crime. - 18:29:47 on 3 Nov 97 GMT

PETER:--MARLENE--You are correct that I regret inviting Quake over here. The reason why is that he had no new light to shed on the situation other than the usual preacing, calls for repentance, and those silly, silly argumets that supposedly demolish evolution and support creationism--that is, if one has a third-grade level of scientific knowledge--a pre-requisite for thier belief system. In the end, Richard and Quake are irrelevant considerations. they have excluded themselves, by their own deliberate and passionate actions, from any remote form of discussion that I can envision as being even remotely connected with reality. And that is a shame. I believe that anyone can learn something from anyone, but it seemed like they almost made a conscious, concerted effort to be as far removed from rational discussion as they possibly could. When one subsequently contemplates these actions, they inevitably will ask: " Why?" - 18:34:45 on 3 Nov 97 GMT

Expounder of the Emptiness:All things are created by Emptiness..even God(a concept created by man.) Emptiness is not nothingness. It encompasses all things ...both good and evil(both are product of man's action,)the Great Void or Emptiness is limitless in scale(engulf all matters and non-matters,) the only way that God is big or great is that God is Emptiness...If God exists then God shall dies...Emptiness is everywhere ..infinite big and infinite small...christians are not to be able to grasp the essence of Emptiness...their hope is that of circular theology...God thought he is the only God(person) in this world---how ignorant and pittifull that is, one can only say his ignorance is greater than that of Satan...Godworshippers will never understand the Great Emptiness..how sad.. - 18:45:05 on 3 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:EXPOUNDER- Erie!!!!! ROB- If this guy what to see what makes us tick, I say sure, come on in BUT if he is a normal xtian, he won't grasp anything except the boundries of his religion. PETER- Keep the stuff coming! - 18:53:27 on 3 Nov 97 GMT

Emptiness Expounder:Emptiness is beyond time and space...life and death..existance and non-existance...matters and forms.. - 18:53:40 on 3 Nov 97 GMT

Steven:EXPOUNDER, that argument is kind of empty. - 18:59:10 on 3 Nov 97 GMT

Adam ALL WE ARE SAYING IS GIVE PIECE OF TOAST:Larry (from before the weekend)...I defy you to explain how the "Star Spangled Banner" is a "war song." Not that that would be such a bad thing, but it simply is not true. - 19:02:41 on 3 Nov 97 GMT

Expounder:Steven right in the sense of emptied of all conceptualization...good and bad...it's so small that it's everywhere(big,)...could be compared with energy or wave forms...it's so small even scientific experiment can not fully grasp ...it's so small it has no problem to pass throgh the cracks of the "narrow gate"(to heaven?--if heaven exists that is---but i think it can only be experienced on earth..) - 19:08:43 on 3 Nov 97 GMT

Adam UNIVERSAL APPEAL:Terry; Rob---> I actually have a hunch that the multi-universe concept is correct, and I would suggest it arrogant for anyone to dismiss it out-of-hand, in the same way that geocentrism was arrogant, and ultimately proven to be a sham (although religious proponents Clingon) - 19:09:01 on 3 Nov 97 GMT

whatever it is Emptiness is certainly not an old man with white beard riding on a cluster of red cloud.. - 19:11:40 on 3 Nov 97 GMT

RON...--->Jason...: Hey! Where have you been? Long time, no readth!! - 19:16:30 on 3 Nov 97 GMT

Adam ALL ARE WELCOME IN THE LIGHT:Rob: I, for one, enjoy the page more when there's dissent. Within limits, of course---I would hate to see people posting huge slabs of gospill, although the more persistent and ludicrous theists (anyone recall Angel-lick?) allow mw to go into "satanic standup" mode, leading to such great one-liners as "Lucifer's Press-On Nails." Thanks for the kudos on that one, Marlene-mean-to-theists. - 19:17:12 on 3 Nov 97 GMT

ADAM You're half-full of it:Mr M.T.: Some of like to be more optimistc; we perceive a vast half-full. - 19:20:38 on 3 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:STEVEN- I agree, this does sound rather empty...EXPOUNDER- All this sounds like it just may be leading up to the macro-micro thing. - 19:27:34 on 3 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene Mean to Theists:ADAM- Where can I pick a set of those up? - 19:29:13 on 3 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:ADAM- Angel-lick is likely fluttering around on theo chat. PLEASE don't invite her back. - 19:31:29 on 3 Nov 97 GMT

Carl:PETER: That QUAKE was nothing but compost, that is him and it is only as that it is also all he is. These folks can't "all" be so lacking of ingenuity. On the nonmystic side there are likes as was DRAKE. So, invite whoever, for as i get the chance i invite others here too. Sometimes i'm sure we strike the passerby as perhaps a bi to daring for their tastes, but it is better that way. Its evolution at work. Of the static nature of religion, once these visitors say their piece once and twice again, then a third time the same nonsense, they just leave and come back like JASON who probably left because his own pathology made him "feel" rediculous having to say not his words but someone else's words. And, of course they have a sneakily growing "feeling" that the stuff/scripture they refer to is meaningless. Take for example any of those things i mention last fri.and see if one of their passages stick apply. - 19:38:46 on 3 Nov 97 GMT

- 19:40:42 on 3 Nov 97 GMT

Steven:EXPOUNDER, uhhhh, mabey I missed the boat, but what the hell are you talking about. What exactly is so small, emptyness? ADAM<<>> uhhh, I don't mind INTELLIGENT discussion. All we seem to here from the visiting fundies is "my bible says this, and my bible says that" which none of us want to here. It would be different if someone made a logical argument for the existence of a supreme thingy. The only thing we here from the visiting morons (ie. Quake, Richard, Angelique etc..) is garbage. Lets get someone here that has a bit of grey matter in between the earlobes. - 19:43:49 on 3 Nov 97 GMT

Steven:ANY<<>> sorry for every instance of here replace with hear. jeez - 19:46:10 on 3 Nov 97 GMT

PETER:--CARL--I have to agree with your assessment of Quake and the like. I guess it's just a matter of discovering as quickly as possible that process that their comments, and the arguments that are presented are going nowhere--and further discussion is pointless. I didn't think all these "fundie" types lack in ingeuity, but from the recent entries, I am starting to have my doubts. It seems as if this mentality is a requirement to embrace these beliefs. Only my naive confidence in human nature however, prevents me from making this conclusion to all such believers. - 19:55:10 on 3 Nov 97 GMT

calebjtaylor:Yes, I'm a xian. In response to Peters message: For saftey reasons (to aviod rebellion of the people) society must do what others push for. Regardless of moral law, there are rules set by society because people push for them to be so. This does not mean there is not a separtate set of moral laws. - 19:56:00 on 3 Nov 97 GMT

Carl:C.Taylor; Gee! tell me then, where is that "other" set of moral laws? If it is not manmade, which means that it appears in a language of some kind of man or woman, which means the language is a composition of words, thunkup my some man or woman, and do you suppose that this "other" set o'morals means the same in, say- a black hole? - 20:10:48 on 3 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:CALEB- Define "moral law". - 20:43:45 on 3 Nov 97 GMT

Carl:OPEN: In the past two weeks i mentioned that political leader types prefer religion to real thought, and that I'd seen some, I accidently stumbled onto one, "Religion is excellant stuff for keeping common people quiet." a N.Bonaparte thought. There are others and as I encounter such I'll post-it. - 21:01:27 on 3 Nov 97 GMT

Steven:CARL<<>>ANY: How bout this quote from George Moron Bush: No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God." --George Bush - 21:33:37 on 3 Nov 97 GMT

Carl:STEVEN: Bush alwats struck me as someone who wanted to be an allstar, probably since he was a tot. He always wanted to score the winning points to hear that cheer to have that feeling of being the difference, of knowing it really wasn't that difficult to throw a no-hitter. It- [?], was just not his cards. - 21:51:32 on 3 Nov 97 GMT

Steven:JOETTE, here is some interesting info: The following is an eyewitness account of the Sand Creek massacre of 1864, when 105 Cheyenne women and children were mutilated and murdered by U.S. troops under Colonel J.M. Chivington: There seemed to be indiscriminate slaughter of men, women, children. There were some thirty or forty squaws collected in a hole for protection; they sent out a little girl about six years old with a white flag on a stick; she had not proceeded but a few steps when she was shot and killed. All the squaws in that h ole were afterward killed, and four or five bucks outside. The squaws offered no resistance. Everyone I saw dead was sc alped. I saw one squaw cut open with an unborn child, as I thought, lying by her side....I saw quite a number of infants in arms killed with their mothers. Another witness: I also heard of numerous instances in which men had cut out the private parts of females and stretched them over the saddle-bows and wore them over their hats while riding in the ranks. Colonel Chivington, at a speech not long before the massacre, advocated the kill ing and scalping of all Indians, even infants: "Nits make lice!" - 21:58:22 on 3 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:-->STEVEN..and if that makes "one nation under god"..they can f**cking well keep it! - 22:02:21 on 3 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:-->CALEB..would you not agree that laws are based on morals, that are inherent in our species? - 22:14:00 on 3 Nov 97 GMT

Steven:JOETTE<>this is a site you would like to read: - 22:22:30 on 3 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- Thank you for that story. It's disgusting what people are capable of doing to other people. I just all of these men(puke) were xtians who abided by "xtian moral law". - 22:23:25 on 3 Nov 97 GMT

Steven:JOETTE<<>>ooops try this: - 22:23:53 on 3 Nov 97 GMT

Steven:JOETTE<<>>it does not seem to work for me so here is the address: http://www.dickshovel.com/WKmasscre.htm - 22:24:50 on 3 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:STEVEN- Did you mean to leave a site? JOETTE- I doubt that the American Indians and Canadian Aboriginals were the only targets of these men of god. How about Africa and Australia? Bet there are horror stories from there too. I suppose white nits are superior to colored nits. - 22:27:28 on 3 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:STEVEN- Check that address again. I've tried a few different thing but still get a not found. - 22:31:24 on 3 Nov 97 GMT

jaywilson:MARLENE, GRANT, PETER, ROB: Thanks for your kind replies. For a moment yesterday I had the sensation of being a pound of ground round in a carnival of carnivores--mostly due to Marlene's go-for- the-jugular-what-do-you-believe-and-why? line of questioning--when I was just getting my proverbial sea-legs on this forum. MARLENE: I no more believe in a conscious Creator than I do in our being truly conscious creations. And as for that last remark--I know you'll think it more "bullshit"-- well, you'll just have to get to know me better, and lady, that'll take time. I don't spill all on the first date, although you'll find me a cheap drunk. If it helps, however, I am not a Christian--at least not demonstrably so; I'm reminded of T.S Eliot's statement that anyone born into Western Civilization in this millenium can't help but be Christian to some extent--even if it's just to have something to argue with. I respect the atheist view just as I respect the vegetarian, animal rights activist, environmentalist, and feminist views--it's tough living in negation of the crap--including the accumulated interest--stored up over the centuries. That's as much of a personal manifesto as you'll get from me today. ADAM: The Star Spangled Banner is not, I'll agree, some ode to war, although it does describe the battle for Ft. McHenry as witnessed by Francis Scott Key; in so doing, it carries a sub-text of approval for war, if only as a test of the "free[dom]" and "brave[ry]" the U.S. allegedly represents among those who sing the song loudest. And as for singing that song, I trust you know that the lyrics to our national anthem are sung to the melody of a British drinking song, "Anacreon In Heaven". That might explain why only the better singers among us dare try to achieve the full range of notes in that melody--and why an inebriate might sing it in spite of its difficulty. I like "America the Beautiful" myself. Now I must be going, but thanks for the encouragement, folks. - 22:38:38 on 3 Nov 97 GMT

RICHARD:Steven; I have already said that the creation is witness of God, so you and ALL others are without excuse! You people want 'PROOF' and itis right before your eyes and still you refuse to believe. You want to find God in the laboratory, yet God is NOT far from any of you. I present the 'PROOF' and say look at the heavens which declare the glory of God; But 'oh NO that can't be right' you say; and yet it stares everyone in the face ! Now you give me 'proof' that there is no God ? You can't can you ? You make me laugh, it's you Atheists who are the great joke of all time, for you refuse to see what is in front of you ! he, he, he.... - 22:50:20 on 3 Nov 97 GMT

Carl:J.WILSON: What would you surmise is the reason for U.S. agression? In this day and age even in their imagination U.S. folks figure war and killing and destruction must be in or a key part to any story they tell. Instead of "Babe" U.S. folks like "Animal Farm", is that what or how you may be so inclined with your query? According to the mystics it is certainly not a creator sort o'thing, all this need to bend one mind and ways. - 22:52:17 on 3 Nov 97 GMT

RICHARD:And I suppose the words, 'Novus Ordo Seclorum' New Order Secular on the American bank notes is truly representative of a nation that is Godless in the extreme, when at the same time the words 'In God We Trust' ring as a hollow hypocrisy. But wait a minute, 'In God we Trust' may NOT be the God of heaven,the true God but that pretender to the throne, Satan. Yes I think in retrospect, the American Mint had better change 'In God We Trust' to 'It is Satan We Really Trust, Worship, Obey ' - 22:56:18 on 3 Nov 97 GMT

jaywilson:RICHARD: I apologize for horning (no pun intended) in on your dialectic, but your smugness leaves me little recourse. I have a question for you: Why don't you get a life of your own instead of vicariously (now that pun was intended) enjoying the one presumably ended for your eternal benefit? - 22:57:23 on 3 Nov 97 GMT

Carl:RICHARD: In the recent past few weeks, UC San Diego researchers found a part or place in the brain where they said things like your views of the "heavens", which I see as merely the abyss of space, and where they figure also resides your god thing. Does this mean there might be a cure for such mysticism? Incidently, the subjects of the research had other kinds of afflictions that were being considered when your god spot was found. And they said the "G" spot was make believe. - 22:59:45 on 3 Nov 97 GMT

Mean Marlene:JAYWILSON- I really think TS was a bit out of touch or should I suggest touched. You say we are conscious(agreed) creations( by whom?). Guys that don't spill on first dates because they are veiling something extraordinary (in their opinion) would be asked on a second by me. I prefer those outright and upfront types. - 23:03:39 on 3 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:-->CARL..not true about the G spot! - 23:05:49 on 3 Nov 97 GMT

Mean Marlene ...Correction:Ooops! I meant to say "woudn't" instead of "would". - 23:06:42 on 3 Nov 97 GMT

Joette on the defense:-->JAYWILSON...I love your Star Spangled Banner. It is representative of the purest part of life, BASEBALL!!! - 23:08:13 on 3 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- What do you mean "not true about the G spot? - 23:09:35 on 3 Nov 97 GMT

Joette on the offense:--->MARLENE...T.S. Eliot was a brilliant writer..he was Britain's answer to Mark Twain. I am sure the quote mentioned was with tongue firmly planted in cheek. - 23:10:31 on 3 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:JAYWILSON- I thought Rose-ann did a fine job of singing that anthem! - 23:11:43 on 3 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:-->MARLENE..Carl made reference to the "G" spot being make believe. Maybe I misread it, but as far as I know the "G" spot is the area on a woman's body that best arouses her sexually. - 23:12:59 on 3 Nov 97 GMT

jaywilson:CARL: I interpret my country's aggressive stance as the result of having no place left to explore--and we're so scared to address our internal problems, for fear of what we'd find. It's just easier to imagine some foreign guy with dark bushy facial hair or acne and a name that ends in a vowel or two, print his picture on Time or Newsweek, and call him a threat to national security. Noriega, Khomeini, Saddam, Khaddafi--they're all the same in that Police-Lab-Sketch-A-Perp paradigm. Once we hate him, it's a cinch to appropriate the money and troops without even asking Congress. I wonder who's next on on our(s)hit list. - 23:14:17 on 3 Nov 97 GMT

Joette (LOL):-->MARLENE..she did a better job singing the anthem than the U.S. colour guard did during the '92 World Series (they carried the Canadian Flag upside down! They must have thought the Jays were from Australia!) - 23:15:48 on 3 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:--->JAYWILSON..looks like it's Saddam again! The news today has been rife with his mug! - 23:18:49 on 3 Nov 97 GMT

jaywilson--on the fence:JOETTE: Interesting that you'd compare Eliot with Twain, for they were both born in Missouri and raised in the Midwest. However, I think Britain can rightly claim him as a poet, if not as a native son. - 23:23:49 on 3 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- TS's Hollow Men was a might bit depressing! I wouldn't compare him to Twain. - 23:24:20 on 3 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:--->STEVEN..I also tried that address, and it says "File Not Found" - 23:24:59 on 3 Nov 97 GMT

Carl:JOETTE: "G" spot, is that what it means when some say "Oh! my god." Hmm, so they are one and the same, afterall. - 23:25:21 on 3 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- Maybe I misunderstood Carl's post. I thought he referred to an area in the brain that caused the illusion of a god therefore G spot. I think he was also suggesting that an area also causes people to see a heaven illusion. I have watched a few programs on the TLC about this. On out of body experiences actually but there is an area in the brain that if stimulated can cause a person to have the sensation that he/she is outside of their body. I'm not sure, but I think this is what Boomhower Carl was trying to put forth. - 23:31:20 on 3 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene see, not so mean..:JAYWILSON- I agree. Just a short while ago when the US's beef was with Iran, ole Saddam was great buddies with the US. - 23:33:55 on 3 Nov 97 GMT

Carl:RICHARD: an FYI, the words on U.S.currency referring to a diety well, that was placed there by a director of the treasury,[?], but it was not an act of congress. The times of the country well, it was when McCarthy was going around ruining people accusing them of being communist. Remember that was a godless gov't? well, that director in cahoots with McCarthy made that change so as to better "identify" the opposition. No heavenly messangers were ever involved nor are such things as heavenly messengers possible. There is no god, and this is your word, to it is synonomous with the word "nothing." By the way I'll have the appropriate names and dates for the money thing, probably tomorrow. - 23:34:35 on 3 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- BTW what does LOL stand for?????? - 23:35:45 on 3 Nov 97 GMT

Carl:MARLENE: You are on target, but i did play for a bit. - 23:36:47 on 3 Nov 97 GMT

jaywilson:MARLENE: Indeed, Ms. Barr (drinking song/Barr? Mere coincidence?) gave it her all, especially when she tried to get in touch with her inner choir boy--a castrati, from what I can recall. But kudos also to Robert Goulet, for his star-bungled Banner some years ago. - 23:39:34 on 3 Nov 97 GMT

Adam THE HOST WITH THE GHOST:Marlene, I didn't invite here here to begin with; I only said I had a fun time making fun of her posts, although apparently she took everything seriously. Did you not get a kick out of those stupid song lyrics she posted? What about her random attempts to spell "Abrasive"?---I though she was using a Scrabble hand instead of a keyboard! I've seen the Lucifer Press-On Nails at Beezelbub's Boutique on Broadway, Cruci and Other Fixes in the Village, Devil-May-Care Hardware on Lex Lucifer Ave, Sins & Needles in Spuyten Duyvil, INRE 'R' US in Mock Haven....Geez, should I go on? This shit is BEYOND EASY - 23:39:54 on 3 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene designs in mind:CARL- Maybe it's time for the US to print out some better words and pictures on their currency. How about, a picture of Sagan and the words, we are not the candle in the dark. - 23:40:09 on 3 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:-->MARLENE..LOL is a ridiculous "netaphism" for "laughing out loud". - 23:42:53 on 3 Nov 97 GMT

Adam ALL EARS RIGHT HERE & NOW:Steven---> Here, Here! On the typo, that is, but not entirely on the substance of the post. - 23:42:57 on 3 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:ADAM- I'll just have to tell Gabby about those shops au jour! I wasn't actually looking for those little gems myself but asking for Gabby, god's angel turned bad boy in Rue LA. - 23:44:26 on 3 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- Thank you! That's been really bugging me for awhile now. - 23:46:57 on 3 Nov 97 GMT

Adam BUSH LEAGUES:Carl---> I still maintain that G. Bush was a much-maligned Prez who hit bad luck on the economic cycle and got little press support because he wasn't a charmer-scumbag like Clinton. Bush was a true statesman who entered the White House with the best r�sum� in history. He was just not a communicator or campaigner. - 23:47:56 on 3 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:JAYWILSON- And I bet Wayne Newton could do well with the anthem too(smirk)! - 23:49:34 on 3 Nov 97 GMT

Adam INHERENT TAX:Jo--> Are you advocating that morals are genetic? Or are you just making some other point to Caleb Calloway? - 23:50:32 on 3 Nov 97 GMT

Carl:ADAM: G.Bush J.Carter teedle dum & tweedle dee? - 23:53:23 on 3 Nov 97 GMT

jaywilson:MARLENE: I don't care a fig for Newton. - 23:53:27 on 3 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene obviously on the fence on US politics:ADAM-only an portion of SADAM. I admit, I liked Bush too at least much more than Bullshit Bill or Horrible Hilory. Mrs. Bush was everyone's grandmother. - 23:54:54 on 3 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:MARLENE: You may be right about the "G-spot", given the amount of "Oh Jesus" and "Oh my awesome God" I hear on theo chat. ADAM: To go with the Press-on Nails, Do you think we could open up a range of sanitary towels too: "Stigmata Plus"? - 23:57:44 on 3 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:JAYWILSON- Cute or I wouldn't give a cent to Johnny Cash. - 23:57:47 on 3 Nov 97 GMT

Adam STAR MANGLED BANNER INTERPRETATIONS:Jay---> With all due respect, I suggest you examine the lyrics of the anthem more closely. It describes the battle for Fort McHenry, sure, because Key wrote it from a prison ship in Baltimore harbor during the battle. But it is entirely ABOUT the flag over the fort---the fact that it was still flying in the early morning meant that the Brits hadn't captured the fort during the night. The lyrics, however, have little to do with battle desriptions, and NOTHING to do with glorification of war. I would add that even if they did, however, there is nothing wrong with glorification of a war to defend the terrritorial integrity of the country (in this case, the War of 1812, which was fought almost entirely in North America). - 23:58:30 on 3 Nov 97 GMT

jaywilson:ADAM: A thought: In America, we elect the candidate we are most likely to forgive. I think it explains a lot. - 0:00:31 on 4 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene MD:ROB- Like I said, it's a damn disorder, nothing that a little thorazine wouldn't cure. - 0:00:43 on 4 Nov 97 GMT

Adam AY CANADARUMBA!:And what's more, shooless Jo, our anthem includes no mention of, much less a prayer to, god, unlike some neighboring wastelands to the North. - 0:04:16 on 4 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:MARLENE: Stick some bromine water in their communion wine- that should do the trick! - 0:04:21 on 4 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene off to the races (no whiteys allowed):ROB- Gotta go, my hands are bleeding, send over some of that Stigmata Plus! - 0:04:47 on 4 Nov 97 GMT

Adam HIT PARADE:Jay: I hope the hits keep on coming. I've got no problem with the US acting as the global mercenary for democracy. - 0:06:33 on 4 Nov 97 GMT

Adam GRAND OLD GALF:Jo: The Canadian flag belongs upside down---gives the saps a chance to flow out. - 0:08:03 on 4 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:ROB- I just had to reply to that communion thing. When my daughter and her ex got married (only a year ago), they were married by their born-again, bride of christ ministeries, pastor. When communion came around which even in the church I had to go to when I was a kid didn't do for a wedding (anglican), instead of the wine they had GRAPE JUICE. And the pastor said "drink this grape juice in rememberance of him". Honestly, I almost had to leave! It was so funny I was actually crying. I think they thought it was because my daughter was getting married though. - 0:11:42 on 4 Nov 97 GMT

RON...--->Marlene...:"Eat this Saltene, it's the body of our Lord, Jesus Christ..." Well at least the Episcopals had great wine! Got up this morning and felt very good about myself. Had 6 women flirt with me in the last 3 days. Life looks better. - 0:15:00 on 4 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene a patriot (LOL):ADAM- I think our flag may be missing a color. I think we dropped the blue as we're not into fairies. - 0:15:09 on 4 Nov 97 GMT

Adam Amending the Shopping Map:That last store for Lucifer Press-On Nails should have been "INRI 'R' US", not INRE. Sorry, the legalese runs pretty deep, I suppose. - 0:16:21 on 4 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:RON- Like I said, lots of pebbles on the beach. You know, I think they did have saltines! It WAS funny! - 0:16:52 on 4 Nov 97 GMT

jaywilson:MARLENE: Actually, you'd be more of a matriot. - 0:17:10 on 4 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:ADAM- And I've already sent Gabby! - 0:18:16 on 4 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:MARLENE: They probably didn't trust atheists being in their church ;) - 0:19:25 on 4 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene aka de motha from de nort:JAYWILSON- The Motha of dem all! - 0:20:15 on 4 Nov 97 GMT

RON...--->Marlene...:Do you visit many News Groups? If you do would you give me your opinion of the question I have asked the NG tonight? I have this problem with Susan and I need her to move on and end our marriage in a positive fashion. The NG is alt.support.marriage. Please see if you can read it. Tonight is Alley McBeal night!!! I love her top to bottom. She's a babe-a-roni. - 0:21:25 on 4 Nov 97 GMT

Adam PREZ on NAILS:Carl: Actually, Carter was one of the more brilliant Presidents but had little grasp of practical DC politics. A good example was in the energy crisis: he assembled some of the greatest minds from academia and industry and presented a massive proposal to Congress. It may well have had merit, but Congress dismissed it as DOA because it was not consulted and the plan didn't provide for a whole lot of local pork. Once Carter was tagged as someone unable to get things done on the Hill, his Presidency was doomed. - 0:21:59 on 4 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:"Stigmata Plus- For your holiest of holies. Don't be palmed off with second best" - 0:22:40 on 4 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene she da one to blame!:ROB- Yup! The pastor was none too happy about it. Me being atheist was likely the cause of their marriage breakup too. - 0:22:44 on 4 Nov 97 GMT

RON...when???: When was the last time we actually had a group topic? I would like to have a topic to do research on again. - 0:22:58 on 4 Nov 97 GMT

RON...--->Marlene...!!!: Your daughter and her husband broke up already???!!! My GOSH!! How horrible. Why, how, when??? Damn, sorry to hear that. - 0:24:40 on 4 Nov 97 GMT

Adam THAT JOKE BLUE!:Marlene: Yeah, you Maply right. - 0:26:01 on 4 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene she be goin' this time!:RON- I be late ifin' I don't go now but I have never visited a newsgroup. If you can mail me with it I'll get back to when I get home. Later!! - 0:26:23 on 4 Nov 97 GMT

jaywilson:ALL: I've enjoyed your company. Good evening. - 0:26:55 on 4 Nov 97 GMT

Adam SUPPORTING ACTRESSES in GENERAL:Ron: Don't be dissin' Courtney Thorne-Smith when you bring up Ally McB. Baberaham Lincoln! - 0:28:35 on 4 Nov 97 GMT

RON...--->Marlene...:Ok, will do. Be safe and may Nature watch over you. JOETTE...Please look in te news group too...I value your opinion as well. - 0:30:38 on 4 Nov 97 GMT

RON...--->ADAM...: Who the heck is Courtney Thorne-Smith? And is she seeing anyone right now? - 0:31:49 on 4 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:-->MARLENE..our flag is not missing a color. It is missing a coloUr. Damn yankee spelling... - 0:59:13 on 4 Nov 97 GMT

This is the first time I have visited this site. I have written a piece in free verse titled "An Atheist's Prayer" which has received some favorable criticism from other atheists. I will be pleased to email a copy to any fellow believers - or should I say non believers? If you like it feel free to pass it on.If you don't like it (which is highly improbable) just hit the 'discard' button. email me at PapaSam@webtv.net Samuel Chasinov - 2:22:53 on 4 Nov 97 GMT

RON...--->ADAM...: I like the character she plays. I would like to meet someone similar. - 3:20:02 on 4 Nov 97 GMT

PETER:--PAPA SAM---Why not just "copy and paste" the thing right here. If someone doesn't like it..well that's thier problem, and if it riles some of the fundie's who have become nothing other than an annoyance--good! Go for it! - 3:26:57 on 4 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:PAPA SAM- I would like to see it too, copy and paste away. - 5:00:20 on 4 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:Is there a game on tonight? Where is everyone? - 5:22:41 on 4 Nov 97 GMT

Steven:Its to late to be up. ADAM, George Bush sucks. - 5:54:19 on 4 Nov 97 GMT

Steven:yaaawwwwnnn goodnight! - 5:55:01 on 4 Nov 97 GMT

RICHARD:The ATHEISTS PRAYER ?? Something like this --- I am an ATHESIST, I deny there is a GOD, I laugh at stupid Christians, I hate their kind of GOD, But in my heart I hope, that GOD does NOT exist, For if I'm wrong I'll be a LIAR, I also have deceived myself; And I end up in the FIRE !!! Other Atheists tell me; 'We're right now make a stand' Because all us ATHEISTS, have our heads buried in the sand !! - 6:30:21 on 4 Nov 97 GMT

PapaSam:Unfortunately aI do not have the facilities or the know how to cut and paste. I do not have a computer. I use webtv which enables me to browse and email. I will attempt to forward a copy by email if you post an email address. If I may, I will type it in this space. Well, it's 2:AM New York time so I'll sign off for now. PapaSam@webtv.net - 7:13:17 on 4 Nov 97 GMT

Grant:RICHARD-- Ever think of writing? I think you have a book in you, 'Conversion the Hard Way: How to Influence People With Insult and Arrogance' or 'You Too Can Show Off For Your Buddies on the Internet.' - 13:06:16 on 4 Nov 97 GMT

Grant:RICHARD-- The "Idiot's Guide" books are doing very well here in the U.S. Maybe 'The Idiot's Guide to Evangelizing'? - 13:29:19 on 4 Nov 97 GMT

--Ahhh, 'tis now time again to continue with ETHICS, RATIONALITY, AND REASON--From Smith's: Atheism:The Case Against God."....." Ethics, according to Rand and other philosophers within the general trend of Aristotelianism, is a normative science; and it is instructive to note that many sciences other than ethics are concerned with ought-judgements. Medicine, for instance, prescribes those actions that must be taken in order to preserve health. A doctor prescribes what OUGHT to be done, but this prescription, to be valid, must be based on OBJECTIVE KNOWLEDGE, such as the facts of human nayture discovered through chemistry, physiology, anatomy and so forth. Architecture is another normative science; an architect learns what OUGHT to be done in the course of constructing a building; and, as with medicine, his ought-judgements must be based on facts. There is little difficulty in understanding the relationship betwwen "is" and "ought" as displayed by normative sciences. Man has the capacity for choice, and whenever a theoretical priciple is applied to the sphere of human action, it becomes necessary to prescribe a course of action, an ought-judgement, if a given goal is to be achieved. A doctor OUGHT to do "x", IF he wants to cure his patient. An architect OUGHT to do "x", IF he wants his building to stand. Even the purelydescriptive sciences, such as physics and astronomy--which have no direct connection with human behavior--require ought-judgements in oreder to specify correct scientific procedures. A physicist OUGHT to do "x", IF he wants his experiment to yield results. It is important to recgnize that both normative and descriptive sciences are concerned primarily with FACTS,with accurately describing the phenomena that fall within their fields of investigation. Before a doctor can accurately prescribe, he must have accurate descriptive knowledge on which to base his recommendations. A normative science is only as good as the facts on which it rests. It is a mistake, therefore, to suppose that normative sciences, because they deal with ought-judgements, differ radically from descriptive sciences in terms of their method; rather, they differ only in terms of the data with which they deal. Both normative and descriptive sciences are concerned with factual knowledge, both are capable of verification, and both are open to such judgements as "valid" or "invalid" "correct" or "incorrect", "true" or "false" ".....more to come - 13:46:12 on 4 Nov 97 GMT

QUAKE TO ALL:Hello all I just thought I'd pop in and tell all of you that your inner witness of God works every day, whenever you feel guilt it is God's way of showing you that you have sinned and are in need of a saviour. So many try to justify thier actiona when they do wrong, but this just shows how deeply they believe in this law of nature or moral law . If they didn't believe in it then why would they be so anxious to make ecuses for not haveing behaved right. If right and wrong really do not exist, because some say that we are just from slime pool of chance evolution mumbo jumbo, then right and wrong would really not exist. Yet they do exist and no matter where we go on earth we see this. It is not just our instinct for survival, because often it tells us even to risk our lives for others, and to do things that we would not normally do, if we wanted to survive, like save anothers life. Some may then say well this is for the survival of the species, as a whole, but I still ask why would we do that, to what end? So if we are honest we see that we have al broken this law and deserve justice done to us. This is evident that we know justice is demanded for evil actions, because when some do evil actions to us we demand that they be judged, yet we do the same, so by our own judgement we condem ourselves. This is strange at the least, that we find ourselves in such a contradiction. Hopefully this will lead us to seek a saviour, and that saviour must be a man and God, for we as men need to make atonement, yet can't only a God could, and that God is Jesus , who is God man, so God saves us and man makes satisfaction to God. But not just any man, but the God-man. So the gospel is the wisdom of God against all the intelectual mumbo jumbo of fallen carnally minded limited men who profess themselves to be wise but denyt God. Turn to Christ, He will recieve you if you repent and believe the gospel, that Christ died for our sins acording to the scriptures, and that he was buried, and rose from the dead according to the scriptures. - 14:18:53 on 4 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene..for I have learned?????:PETER- Good post as usual! In other words scientific method is scientific method and without method, it isn't science. - 14:31:39 on 4 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:GRANT- I think maybe "Show off for Buddies on the Internet"(in the classroom) may be the book du jour. - 14:33:31 on 4 Nov 97 GMT

Grant:MARLENE-- Yes I think that one best fits. Maybe Quake could write one too, 'Willing Suspension of Disbelief: Small Price for Eternal Life.' - 14:49:22 on 4 Nov 97 GMT

Steven:MARLENE, It makes me physically ill when I look at this page and see Quake posting. Are you a hocky fan Marlene. - 15:09:58 on 4 Nov 97 GMT

Steven:JOETTE<>MARLENE<<>>one last shot, check this site out: http://www.dickshovel.com/WKmasscre.html - 15:19:42 on 4 Nov 97 GMT

Carl:STEVE: The quack has no real affair of which to speak, as we have all seen one or two posts by it, complete any and about all he can post, again and again. The little minded things the quack post here, most here have seen before and the message is without change. Who lives in such a false to facts world that is without change. Probably just a quack. - 15:26:54 on 4 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:STEVEN- Nope! I don't really watch any type of sports. I went to my kids school games like volleyball and basketball and I liked those but of course kids were play so... Years ago I did enjoy hockey when there were only five or six teams. Made a lot of money off my dad with bets. As far as Quake goes, just ignore him. When I see his name attached to a post, I just page down. I tried that site but so far there has been no contacting dickshovel. - 15:48:54 on 4 Nov 97 GMT

Steven:MARLENE, hmmmph, when i click on the URL I left it takes me directly to the site. I wonder what the problem is? - 17:12:33 on 4 Nov 97 GMT

Carl:STEVEN: Gory site. Very troubling to see especially if lies and liars offend one's morals and ethics. - 17:28:58 on 4 Nov 97 GMT

Steven:CARL, ????! - 18:52:21 on 4 Nov 97 GMT

Emptiness Expounder:everybody created the world...God is foolish to think he is the only one who created it...JohnI says Elohim(Gods in plurial) created this world (this society..) - 19:03:41 on 4 Nov 97 GMT

QUAKE:Hello all I just thought I'd pop in and tell all of you that your inner witness of God works every day, whenever you feel guilt it is God's way of showing you that you have sinned and are in need of a saviour. So many try to justify thier actions when they do wrong, but this just shows how deeply they believe in this law of nature or moral law . If they didn't believe in it then why would they be so anxious to make ecuses for not haveing behaved right. If right and wrong really do not exist, because some say that we are just from slime pool of chance evolution mumbo jumbo, then right and wrong would really not exist. Yet they do exist and no matter where we go on earth we see this. It is not just our instinct for survival, because often it tells us even to risk our lives for others, and to do things that we would not normally do, if we wanted to survive, like save anothers life. Some may then say well this is for the survival of the species, as a whole, but I still ask why would we do that, to what end? So if we are honest we see that we have al broken this law and deserve justice done to us. This is evident that we know justice is demanded for evil actions, because when some do evil actions to us we demand that they be judged, yet we do the same, so by our own judgement we condem ourselves. This is strange at the least, that we find ourselves in such a contradiction. Hopefully this will lead us to seek a saviour, and that saviour must be a man and God, for we as men need to make atonement, yet can't only a God could, and that God is Jesus , who is God man, so God saves us and man makes satisfaction to God. But not just any man, but the God-man. So the gospel is the wisdom of God against all the intelectual mumbo jumbo of fallen carnally minded limited men who profess themselves to be wise but denyt God. Turn to Christ, He will recieve you if you repent and believe the gospel, that Christ died for our sins acording to the scriptures, and that he was buried, and rose from the dead according to the scriptures. - 19:08:38 on 4 Nov 97 GMT

Quake is a brain washed robot recorder. - 19:11:36 on 4 Nov 97 GMT

QUAKE:Carl..it is sad to think that you may not want to hear the same simple truth now, but you may be remembering it forever in Hellfire forever, it may go over and over in your ears forever, how sad and ironic. To think of spending eternity in flames and judgement, forever, and screaming and screaming forever in hell, it is so sad and horrible. Carl I pray you don't go there, but already you seem to be on your way, than all your arguments will fail and all your rejection of the SIMPLE truth will come back on you. You want some tantelizing tickling arguments. well God doesn't have to complicate things for you, it is simple. And you like Peter, always seem to be avoiding the direct questions and statements i make, and all your argument really consisit of is an attack on my style or manner, etc, very weak and childish actually, how old are you, you are probibly a teenager right. You have a lot to learn as we all do - 19:13:31 on 4 Nov 97 GMT

Are you scared by Quake's Scare Tactics yet? - 19:14:57 on 4 Nov 97 GMT

garbage in, garbage out. - 19:15:49 on 4 Nov 97 GMT

Quake when will you become a reborn Atheist? - 19:18:54 on 4 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:EMPTINESS EXPOUNDER: Your words are no more than poetry. How can a person create something that was created before they came into existence? - 19:22:16 on 4 Nov 97 GMT

Rob : i don't think you have read the Bible carefully...the New Testament only mentions the world(the society that we live in--not the Universe,) - 19:32:53 on 4 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:Mr Anonymous: Then it should read "creates" not "created". - 19:40:31 on 4 Nov 97 GMT

Expounder of Emptiness:Nowhere in the Old Testament mentioned the Universe...just Heaven(air) and Earth (both are after the fact...like water is seperated with land..etc---those images are just observation after the fact,) Yes water is separated from land...yes human exist...all after the fact...no one witnessed God's creation unless the author is God...now the false prophet Isiah put words into Yahweh's mouth..originally Yahweh was just a fertility God...later changed into male figure..a law maker etc...christianity is no mystery but mere mythical "fire-side" story. - 19:40:37 on 4 Nov 97 GMT

Expounder:Yahweh was mystified and put up with a tittle "creator God" by Isiah...King of king ,Lord of Lord..etc...I King 22:23 Lord your God put lies into prophets'mouth...prophets are good liar..story teller..that was how they made a living at.. - 19:45:06 on 4 Nov 97 GMT

Carl:STEVEN: Who in a right state of mind could not see that the words attributed to that general were lies, ergo, he is a liar. It stunned me in about the same way as when I saw a bill o'sale for a slave purchased in Louisana! That ol'person was an ancestor of one o'my colleagues. So, do we choose honesty or the "shroud" of dishonesty, and become like some groveling christian? - 19:45:47 on 4 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:EofE: Yaweh/God/Allah/New Testament/Old Testament/Book of John/Book of Isiah, I DON'T CARE! You can't just pick and choose the bits you agree with. - 19:50:54 on 4 Nov 97 GMT

E of E:Rob..the point is your Bible is all of lies..now matter where you look at Old or New Testament - 19:53:30 on 4 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:E of E: Point of information- not my bible mate! I'm an atheist. - 19:54:55 on 4 Nov 97 GMT

One pastor told me .."if the Bible has lied once...the whole Bible is of lies and should be burnt.." I tost it in the fire place...end of story. - 19:55:35 on 4 Nov 97 GMT

Eof E:Rob you are a false Atheist who come here to confound the genuine Atheists...i know your heart...you try to blend in...it's not easy to become an Atheist...go read a few more Atheist books my pal. - 19:58:54 on 4 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:Ha ha a-ha ha ha! Geez that made my day, MY BIBLE is all of lies. Shit almighty, we should have that framed... - 20:01:29 on 4 Nov 97 GMT

Steven:CARL, i do believe that the quote was put there to show how badly politicians etc... lie to put a good name on something that was horrible. Yes we choose honesty. For the US gov. this is just one small lie among thousands. The US gov actually handed out medals to men for slaughtering unarmed men, woman and children with gatling guns, canon, and hochkiss guns. This is disgusting. Let me share a little saying: If people are genuinely interested in honoring Indians, try getting your government to live up to the more than 400 treaties it signed with our nati ons. Try respecting our religious freedom which has been repeatedly denied in federal courts. Try stopping the ongoing theft of Indian water and other natural resources. Try reversing your colonial process that relegates us to the most impoverished, polluted, and desperate conditions in this country...Try understanding that the mascot issue is only the tip of a very huge problem of continuing racisim against American Indians. Then maybe your ["honors"] will mean something. Until then, it's just so much superficial, hypocritica l puffery. People should remember that an honor isn't born when it parts the honorer's lips, it is born when it is accepted in the honoree's ear - 20:01:31 on 4 Nov 97 GMT

Steven:EofE, ROB is a genuine intelligent atheist. I have read thoughtfull and intelligent post made by ROB. Why the animosity, Rob is cool!! - 20:03:33 on 4 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:E of E: Just because we share a disbelief of god, doen't mean I have to accept any old shit you decide to dish out. How do define "Atheism" then? My definition more acurately is an agnostic atheist- I don't believe in a god in the absence of convincing evidence. - 20:05:08 on 4 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:STEVEN: Don't worry, we appear to have someone who can't see the wood for the trees... - 20:06:40 on 4 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:Man they just get better! A FALSE ATHEIST with a BIBLE FULL OF LIES. I've seen it all today - 20:09:43 on 4 Nov 97 GMT

Rob my apology ,i thought you are one of Quake in disguise...i am not agnostic but rather Non-theist...Love does not have to be monopolized by a certain God and the only God...God of God etc... - 20:11:21 on 4 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:All we need now is Quake to declare himself as the anti-christ, and then we really would have one surreal string of postings to scroll back to. - 20:13:25 on 4 Nov 97 GMT

Rob if you still think the Bible say any truth...why don't you let a poisonous snake to bite you..or better yet dring cyanide...Bible says you won't die because you believe in God's word..Mathew. - 20:13:43 on 4 Nov 97 GMT

Carl:ROB: golly, are really a closet bible thumper? - 20:16:35 on 4 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:E of E: Sorry to get off on the wrong foot! What exactly do you mean by "non-theist". As for truth in the bible, what gave you that impression? I daresay there might be some things that are true in it (i.e, maybe an eclipse being recorded on a certain date etc). Despite this, to answer your question I would only have to say that I didn't believe it were the word of god. - 20:17:05 on 4 Nov 97 GMT

E of E:Room , my original handle on other sites is called God-Buster...I have chased demented christians to this latest site..sorry for any offense.. - 20:17:28 on 4 Nov 97 GMT

GodBuster--GB:Rob ...i admire your understanding...tell that to the christians.. - 20:19:16 on 4 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:GB: Well keep up the good work! They've got until sunrise to get outta town, or else I'm calling in the GB. BTW, I think I've seen you post of theo before now, n'est ce pas? - 20:21:58 on 4 Nov 97 GMT

Rob what is BTW...? "somebody has to do it"...lol... - 20:25:06 on 4 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:BTW = By the way. Funny really, as someone on Theo chat had to explain LOL to me the other day! - 20:26:30 on 4 Nov 97 GMT

Steven:ROB, what does LOL mean exactly? - 20:29:36 on 4 Nov 97 GMT

Salut...call me when Quake et al are here...chow - 20:29:39 on 4 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:STEVEN: "laugh out loud". Now I suppose you see the irony in that post. FYI, FYI=For your information, and IMHO, IMHO=In my humble opinion. - 20:31:46 on 4 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:STEVEN/GB: I've gotta go now. Maybe I'll speak to you later, in a more amicable atmosphere! - 20:34:49 on 4 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:STEVEN/GB: I've gotta go now. Maybe I'll speak to you later, in a more amicable atmosphere! - 20:35:21 on 4 Nov 97 GMT

PETER:..I think s'more of the chapter ETHICS, RATIONALITY, AND RELIGION is in order here. Its effect --especially following the garbled absurdities--is so refreshing when one savours the obvious contrast...."We see, that normative and descriptive sciences are identical in that both deal with abstract principles derived from the facts of reality; their difference lies in which aspect of reality they consider, as well as the purpose for which their principles are employed. Descriptive sciences are concerned with "pure" facts and theories; normative sciences are concerned with those facts and theories as they apply to human goals. So, for instance, medicine deals with the facts of the anatomy, as those facts apply to the goal of man's health. It is this application of abstract principles to the pursuit of human goals that gives rise to normative sciences and, consequently, to the ought-judgements prescribed by those sciences. Let us now consider the discipline of ethics--or, as I have previously described it--the science of human values. What are the facts of human nature that generate the need for such a science? The first relevant aspect of human nature is an obvious one: man is a living entity, a bilogical organism, who faces the alternative of life or death. And, as Rand has emphasized, it is this conditional nature of life, the alternative between life and death, that generates the concept of 'value'. Say Rand: There is only one fundamental alternative in the universe: existence or non-existence--and it pertains to a single class of entities: to LIVING organisms. The existence of inanimate matter is unconditional, the existence of life is not: it depends on ONE SPECIFIC COURSE OF ACTION. Matter is indestructuble, it changes its forms, but cannot cease to exist. It is only a living organism that faces the constant alternative: the issue of life or death. Life is a process of self-sustaining and self-generated action. If an organism fails in that action, it dies; its chemical elements remain, but its life goes out of existence. It is only the concept of '"Life"' that makes the concept of '"Value"' possible. It is only to a living entity that things can be good or evil".....This last portion of the Smith discussion reveals then the inadequacy of religious ethics. They just don't go back this far, and the past discussion clearly shows that unless the base of any code goes back this far, its of no value--it remains in the province of the arbitrary--and with no connection to reality. It is this aspect that theists have difficulty in accepting, as they have all along just assumed Biblical scripture as being the definitive source of forming morals. Not only is this just simply not the case, it just turns the whole question of ethics into a deuces-wild card game. It is my belief that this is by far the greatest shortcoming in religious( especially Christian) thought, and the area will where I have committed myself into revealing these shortcomings whose consequences are almost too frightening to contemplate. But it isn't difficult--it has occured all around the world for the past 2000 years. Man simply cannot continue to follow the path made by religious ethical systems. - 20:38:41 on 4 Nov 97 GMT

Carl:GODBUSTER: interesting pseudonym, when you've unbefuddled one made one realise they are only quacks, and nothing earth moving do you find they still need their hands held? - 20:43:51 on 4 Nov 97 GMT

QUAKE:TO ALL........what is it going to be like to be seperated from God and His love and kindness forever, never to knbow what love is. I hope none here find out. But the bible talks of hell as a place of torments, worse than you can ever imagine, oh how can any man take this lightly, you wont have chat talk like this in hell, there will be no more blessings in hell like christians coming im here to try to help you, only wailing and gnashing of teeth, and screams of horror , regret, sorrow, no more loved ones, no more hope or joy or peace, only contrinual terror and it gets worse eternally> knowing wht you could have had and lost it, looking back to all the times when you could have recieved CHRIST AND DID NOT. Forever remembering the evil of your sin, flashes of horror haunting you forever. And knowing that there are people in heaven all the time filled with the greatest joy and purpose in the glorious kingdom of God, in heaven so beautiful with the light of God and His presence. To walk with Christ and to know the divine purpose for your life, what future fantastic things will they see and wonderful places to go. How great a loving God will they come to know forever, to see thier loved ones and to rejoice with unspeakable joy and full of the spectacular revelations of God's great plan and love. to see the angels and creatures of wonder, and to have eternal life in such a joyful place with God, beautiful singing and worlds beyond worlds, oh what lies ahead for such who trust in the infinite and great God..But those in hell fire will never see it, they will be remebering thier rediculous and rebellious arguments against God, and that they chose to hold onto thier sin rather than to come to the light, then horror will fill their whole being as flames burn thier being and screams do nothing to stop the horror and guilt of conscience. Oh the absolute horror of conscience that they will feel. Please repent and don't go there turn to God he loves you so much that he sent His Son Jesus Christ to die for your sins, if you don't have him you will stand before God and have to give an account for all sin and will be thrown into the lake of fire forever, in torments. That is where many here are headed unless they repent. And yes i want God to scare the hell right out of you - 20:44:09 on 4 Nov 97 GMT

QUAKE:Peter what is reality, to you, based on what ?, and how do you define the guilt we feel for sinning as all men do all over. Reality is not always what you think it is. I'l tell you a story, (fiction story but it could be true). A man was standing with a knife poised and panting violently, with blood allover him, and a vicious snarl on his face. Then I ask what do you think of this man?..Some would say, he looks mad or like a crazy man, and I do not want to know him. But if we enlarge the picture we see that there is a vicious tiger in front of him and his family behind him, now what does he look like?. Well now he is a couragious man who is willing to die if need be for his family, and who would not want to know him. So Peter, you may look at Christ on the cross and see a man who died for nothing really, but not recognizing that he died for you and gave His life so that you could have eternal life, But you must enlarge the picture to see that, sadly you only see a little part, and judge by outward appearances, of reality - 20:49:52 on 4 Nov 97 GMT

PETER:--In case anyone was wondering about what I meant when referring to the " refreshing feeling one gets at the obvious contast" compare the last "Smith" quote to the text two messages down. Ahhhhhh! Sometimes I am SO GLAD I am an atheist, and this is one of them! - 20:54:37 on 4 Nov 97 GMT

Steven:That is it. QUAKE, this is the LAST post I will EVER make to you uneducated brainwashed dumb ass. You, and christians like you are the greatest threat to the further existence of mankind. You, and christians like you, wish to keep man in the dark because the light (knowledge) keeps slamming your religion back into the dark ages from whence it came. I have had it up to my fucking eyeballs with your religion moronic drival so FUCK off. There is not one person that visits this site that can stomach your posts. I would pay large amounts of cash just to be to never have to read you mythological crap anymore. I will discontinue pointing to your unintelligent bs and proving for a FACT that the bible you put your faith in is nothing more than lies and accounts of your god committing mass murder. You point out that your head god yahweh committed these murders so that he would cut off the diseased arm to save the host. That you would even state something like that is setting a condition where the murder of ANYONE can be excused, putting the onus on your god. You are disgusting filth. My people were wrong in initially being friendly to you christian white people. We should have known better. I guarantee you Quake that my people will one day gain retribution for the wrongs done to our people. My hope also is that when retribution does occur, yours is the first head that will be set on a pike. I assure you my enemy that one day you will feel the vengence of not just my people, but all the peoples whom christianity has put under its yolk. - 21:09:48 on 4 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:HUMMMMM....EofE, godbuster....I don't know but many of these posts reek of an uneducated xtian. For example, since when did the male war-god of the jews become a fertility goddess. I would imagine she is more aptly described as the whore of babylon. PETER- Thanks again for your "down to atheist posts"! BTW ALL- a non-theist can also be a deist...thunk about tha un! - 21:15:07 on 4 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:STEVEN: You can't put an arsehole on a pike! It will slide off o-- - 21:15:44 on 4 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:ROB and STEVE- You handled yourselves well with the "event" of the so called atheist EofE. Gotta go damn bookwork! - 21:17:07 on 4 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:MARLENE: Thankyou-masta - 21:19:30 on 4 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene: who says atheists have no imagination! We'll allow ourselves just this one delusion..REALITY IS PRETENDING QUAKE DOESN'T EXSIST! - 21:20:41 on 4 Nov 97 GMT

Carl:ANY: Lets not allow the insane quack one to cause anyone any excitement afterall, one who thinks as he does comes from the ranks of many such distinguished thinkers. Consider that a Cardinal Bellarmino said, "To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that jesus was not born of a virgin." That sure makes it appear that such thinker expounders do not know the world, that they instead see it in terms that are false to facts, as only their imagination. Matter creates spirit. - 21:25:23 on 4 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:ROB..you charletan you! Coming in here and pretending to be an atheist. Shame, shame, shame! Anyway, you stated that all you need now is for Quake to declare himself the anti-christ; he stated a few weeks ago that in fact, the pope is the anti-christ. Is the anonymous poster possibly the holy ghost? - 21:37:40 on 4 Nov 97 GMT

PETER:--->ALL--Is it just me, or does anyone have the slightest clue what Quake is talking about? Is it my imagination, or is he really so utterly and diabolically stupid as I think he is? - 22:48:21 on 4 Nov 97 GMT

PETER:Here is Sam's poem:-- An Atheist's Prayer I wish there were a God. An all powerful God. A kind and loving God. He would have no priests or ministers, No rabbis or imams or other holy men to speak for him. He would have no holy books to keep his words For he would live in the hearts and minds of all alike. He would need no praise or prayers. There would be no wars, no holocausts or inquisitions. There would be no religions or infidels. No fanatics who slaughter in the name of righteousness. The nations and races of the world would live in peace and harmony. A kind and loving god would not allow the genital mutilation of young girls or the abuse of children. There would be no rape. Women would not be treated as unclean, or second class citizens. They would walk hand in hand with men Different but equal, in a natural symbiosis. On my god's earth there would be no floods or earthquakes, no typhoons or tornadoes to wreak havoc on mankind. There would be no droughts or famines. No children with hunger swollen bellies, or mothers with empty breasts for their suckling babes. Children would not bear children, and babies would be born only to mature and loving parents. A child would be safe at home and in the streets, and laugh and play and go to school without fear. There would be no pain or suffering or disease and when people have lived their allotted time they would die peacefully in their sleep. I wish there were a God An all powerful God A kind and loving God. I wish. by Samuel Chasinov To all addressees: I chose your names at random - 22:55:02 on 4 Nov 97 GMT

Carl:PETER: That person is merely out to rattle cages, as for our-all, observations it sure looks like he does not practice sanity but its contrary, here at this cyberspace location. Nobody that really thinks, outside of idiots, really meaningfully sees others as that individual writes. I can't play and carry on like that but that name sure does. - 23:35:58 on 4 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:-->One good thing about the quack's posts are the posts that Steven claims will be his last! I hope Steven has lots more "last" posts to him because I love them! Anyone else noticing the xmas commercials on television already? - 0:05:28 on 5 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:JOETTE: Xmas commercials are nothing. I saw an advert for a "Psychic Fayre" the other day. I mean, why would they have to advertise??? - 0:44:56 on 5 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:JOETTE: Xmas commercials are nothing. I saw an advert for a "Psychic Fayre" the other day. I mean, why would they have to advertise??? - 0:45:01 on 5 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:Darn it! Talking double-dutch this evening. - 0:45:50 on 5 Nov 97 GMT

Adam THORNE in MY SIDE:RON: Courtney T-S is a blonde with a distinctive, underslung jaw (� la Bernadette Peters) who I understand is a supporting character on AMcB (I could be mistaken, as I've never seen the show, being up as it is against Monday Nite Football). She was on Melrose Place, I think, and was in some cute wacky movie about summer school years ago, in which she played a 16 year-old with a crush on the teacher. That pig Kirstie Alley co-starred in that one as well. Many people know CT-S's face but not her name. - 0:56:59 on 5 Nov 97 GMT

Adam BEATING AROUND THE BUSH:Steven: He is not. He is a true statesman, who almost single-handedly turned the U.N. for the first time into the organization it was intended to be during the Gulf War. - 0:59:48 on 5 Nov 97 GMT

Adam ROCK of AGES:Steven: Actually, the greatest single threat to human existence is a potential collision with an asteroid or comet. I can't believe that we aren't spending shitloads of public funds to detect them. Instead, there's all this ridiculous hoopla over the myth of "global warming." - 1:06:47 on 5 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:-->ADAM..I think that a new and wonderful retro-virus has a greater chance of wiping is out than a collision with an asteroid, but hey, I am only one small voice from the northern wastelands. Did you exercise your franchise today? - 2:02:23 on 5 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:-->correction..that should read "wipe US out" BMW ADAM..why do you say that global warming is a myth? - 2:04:54 on 5 Nov 97 GMT

RICHARD:THE ANSWER TO SAM'S PRAYER IS THAT THERE IS A GOD INDEED, A GOD OF LOVE, WHO LOVES YOU ALL AND SENT HIS SON TO DIE FOR YOU ALL. PITY YOU DO NOT WANT TO BELIEVE, ISN'T IT ?? SEE JOHN 3:16 AND IN RETURN FOR ALL THE ABUSE SOME OF YOU HAVE GIVEN ME I SAY, GOD BLESS YOU ALL !! - 4:20:46 on 5 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene. jus' da motha from de waas luns of de nort.:JOETTE and ADAM- I think both your "end of humanity" suggestions are a possibility. But there is also a possibility that humanity will survive both disasters. - 4:22:37 on 5 Nov 97 GMT

RICHARD:Steven; Do NOT pick on my brother in Jesus, QUAKE. Kill me if you want. I live in AUSTRALIA, at 1 St. Georges Parade, Wentworth Falls, New South Wales, my phone # is 0247571825. You may have to 'contract' my murder to someone in Australia ? You threaten much and curse GOD, but I pray for your soul, that you may come to know the Lord Jesus Christ, who is my Lord and Saviour, and by the way Jesus was a JEW, not a 'white man' if that makes you happy. - 8:37:15 on 5 Nov 97 GMT

RICHARD:Adam; You should be made aware that a heavenly body ( A STAR ) called 'WORMWOOD' ( GREEK = Absynthe ) is going to crash into the earth at some time in the future. This event is mentioned in the Apocalypse 8:10,11 I have NOT been able to find a star by that name, but that doeos NOT mean that it is NOT on some ancient chart. If you can help me I would be pleased. - 8:42:40 on 5 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:Ooo that's tempting. How much does it cost to fly Down Under from England? Mmmmm- if I'm ever in the area on business. RICHARD: Don't worry, just wait until a comet is on a collision course and then call it Wormwood. That's how these prophecies work isn't it. Oh well, gotta go. - 10:19:53 on 5 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:RICHARD: Do you think I could have your surname too? (It just makes thing easier) - 10:21:33 on 5 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:-->ROB..I think that his last name is Merrill. - 12:38:38 on 5 Nov 97 GMT

PETER:--RICHARD--To even suggest a star will collide with the earth is ludicrous. Anyone with even a mininal amount of knowledge of astro-physics would ever make such a preposterous claim. Rob mentioned a comet hitting the earth--which IS plausible. Do you in fact even know the difference between (a)a star (b) a comet (c) a "shooting star" ? - 13:12:51 on 5 Nov 97 GMT

PETER:--PETER---Here we go with another short reprise( quote by Rand ) and continuation of ETHICS, RATIONALITY, AND RELIGION from George H. Smith's book: ATHEISM: The Case Against God"...."says Rand:There is only one fundamental alternative in the universe: existence or non-existence--and it pertains to a single class of entities: to LIVING organisms. The existence of inanimate matter is unconditional, the existence of life is not: it depends on ONE SPECIFIC COURSE OF ACTION. Matter is indestructuble, it changes its forms, but cannot cease to exist. It is only a living organism that faces the constant alternative: the issue of life or death. Life is a process of self-sustaining and self-generated action. If an organism fails in that action, it dies; its chemical elements remain, but its life goes out of existence. It is only the concept of '"Life"' that makes the concept of '"Value"' possible. It is only to a living entity that things can be good or evil." Rand does not consider the relation between facts and values to be a serious problem, because, for her, values represent a KIND of fact ( and, in this regard, she follows in the tradition of Aristotelian philosophers ). The concept of value expresses the beneficial or harmful relationship of some aspect of reality to a living organism, and to sat that something is of value to an organism is to say that it is conducive to the life of that organism. When we say that water is of value to a plant, foe example, we mean that water is conducive to the life of that plant. The concept of value, in this instance, signifies the life-serving function of water in relation to the plant, and this relationship is objectively demonstratable. The value-judgement involved here is TRUE; i.e. it describes the actual relationship. The water will, in fact, further the life of the plant is to describe a fact of reality. Therefore, in this case at least, there is no problem of "deriving" a value from a fact--as if one is dealing with two separate realms--because the value judgement expresses a fact; it is an estimate of a relation ship, and this estimate is either accurate or innnacurate, true or false"...more to come - 13:41:04 on 5 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:PETER- I suppose the question would be, concerning your last post, is delusion a value to humanity. I was reading a little on philosophy last night. One of them thought that humanity fuctioned more efficiently when they felt they were being watched. Maybe so, so the masses. Not so for me though. - 14:26:38 on 5 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene Boomhower: Did that last post make sense? - 14:28:36 on 5 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:PETER: Don't be silly, as ADAM pointed out, Jesus Christ Superstar collided with earth about 2000 years ago! Actually, the gravitational attraction from Richard's self righteousness might be enough to drag a whole galaxy our way ;) JOETTE: Thanks! Now, shall it be blow torches and pliers? No- too humane. Crucifiction? No- too cliched. I wonder how god would do it? - 14:28:48 on 5 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:PETER: Just a couple of things regarding Rand: First, matter is destructable. I don't think this need lead to abandoning Rand's point here, just maybe a revision. Second, does Rand go on to consider that what may be of "positive value" to one organism maybe of "negative value" (i.e detrimental) to another? - 14:37:35 on 5 Nov 97 GMT

Steven:RICHARD, head on a pole is a figure of speach moron. Quake needs to be put in a mental hospital right next to you. - 14:56:07 on 5 Nov 97 GMT

Steven:RICHARD, also, killing you would be to easy. I would rather you find out on your own that you are wasting your life on a lie. - 14:57:17 on 5 Nov 97 GMT

Grant:MARLENE-- Of course the post made sense. Don't know if humanity functions more efficiently, but I'm pretty sure humanity gets more sneaky when it feels it's being watched. - 15:00:50 on 5 Nov 97 GMT

Steven:ANY<>jeez, i think even my rhetoric is getting tire! - 15:04:32 on 5 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:GRANT- I agree. I was reading a book called _Green River Rising_. It's about life in a prison. The manic warden in the story held Bentham. It interesting how fictions can lead someone to learn more about things. - 15:09:36 on 5 Nov 97 GMT

Grant:MARLENE-- It's a mark of good fiction. - 15:14:23 on 5 Nov 97 GMT

PETER:--ROB--Yes, I agree a revision is in order for the "matter destruction" here , but with regards to ethics it isn't really relevant. Yes she does go into fraeter detail inasfar as some things being negative for some and positive for others. She does go rather deeply into this subject--as this was her greatest concern of all. She pretty well said that ethics--as any science is--can only be discovered in the province of reason. Of course when one applies reason to all situations, that is the only method in which any negative value can be detected if it is applicable in any given situation--and NOT by what she calls some sort of " cracker-barrel brand of folksy wisdom" - 15:28:21 on 5 Nov 97 GMT

PETER:--MARLENE--Interessting question--and the answer is a resounding "NO!". It may give one temporary comfort, but this is precisely what theist religions encourage and demand. Faith. An abandonment of the mind. Only through reason can a person recognize and deal with reality. To do otherwise is to abandon one's mind--and one's mind is his most basic tool for survival. I don't think there really is any person who doesn't delude themselve4s from time to time--as our society through religion, has implied that this isma necessary function for man to " get through the hard times"--and it is integrated in so many facets of one's everyday pursuits, that it's not consciously detected most of the time. Perhaps people do function more efficiently if they are being "watched" --I take it you mean a supernatural entity--but that is a weakness in the character of that person--not a strength. It displays a lack of self-esteem and confidence--two vital ,ingredients for a person to live a full, happy life. It must all come from within. Society has made it too easy to be dependent on other influences--and it simply just does not work. - 15:39:44 on 5 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:-->ROB..no blow torches, but since he always down on his knees in submission, maybe a couple of spikes through the kneecaps will do. At least that would keep him away from his computer! - 15:40:44 on 5 Nov 97 GMT

QUAKE:STEVEN I LOVE YOU, AND THAT IS WHY I TELL YOU THE TRUTH, I CARE FOR YOUR SOUL, EVEN THOUGFH YOU HATE ME, THIS JUST SHOWS THE RESULKT OF YOUR KIND OF BELIEVE AND OF MINE - 15:59:51 on 5 Nov 97 GMT

QUAKE:STEVEN..AND I KNOW THAT IT IS SATAN THAT HAS YOU IN HIS CLUTCHES, AND LIKE HIS PUPET.. - 16:01:18 on 5 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:PETER: I'll have to try and read a bit of Rand. I'm a slow reader though- I've already got books piling up by my bedside. I'm not sure I share your's/Rand's "authoritative" position here, in that I don't view any philosophy to be neccesary. If someone wants to believe in a god, then that is their prerogative. I think it really boils down to what you can live with- for example you and I would not be able to live with a belief in god, due to the lack of evidence. If others can though, then I would find it hard to find grounds upon which I could say they "shouldn't" - 16:06:25 on 5 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:STEVEN: I love you too man, so much so I am not going to try and force my beliefs onto you. - 16:10:04 on 5 Nov 97 GMT

Carl:DEPENDENCE: I am always amazed that anyone chooses to concoct such mind games. There are connections though, that one cannot exist without, as water, air and an external source of energy,i.e., food, the rest however, is the game. Some as the quack yield to insanity, and the Australian visitor seems on his way to the same funland. - 16:14:47 on 5 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:PETER: I should perhaps add that I mean "shouldn't" in an absolute sense. I would distinguish this from being able to say "shouldn't, otherwise this, this and this will happen". Does this make sense? - 16:14:56 on 5 Nov 97 GMT

Carl:ANY: I've barely looked into A.Rand, but if her advocates elsewhere represent her truly then I'd read her entirely for the same reasons I peruse the bible, which is to satisfy a curio of my own. As for those elsewhere advocates of Rand, they are very right wing almost white supremacist with a serious incline to "a" belief system par nonelse. And, again that is merely an impression of those who say they advocate views espoused by her. So are they on target or only to the right? - 16:43:33 on 5 Nov 97 GMT

Steven:ROB, I love you to man, and your beliefs are always welcome. I don't think I'll have to go far. BUT, is it good that people believe in something that does not exist. I don't know if this is anything but detrimental to the person with faith. The problem is, when a person is putting faith into something as vile as christianity it is detrimental not only to themselves but to the people surrounding them. Now, there are religions such as Hindu that are less detrimental. I don't think I have ever heard of a army of Hindu's slaughtering people because they believe differently. I think that it is ridiculous that someone would beleive is something that is obviously man made/mythology. To me and my understanding there are only two religions in the world that preach hate and division, those being islam and christianity, with christianity by far being the worse. The funny thing is thatt in the US of friggin A our government is constantly pumping out anti-islam propaganda when the christians are by far the more aggressive of sects. - 17:32:57 on 5 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:STEVEN: I can fully see your point, and from a personal emotional perspective I agree that religion is "not good". I would not make the step though, of elevating that to an absolute truth, as when the human race dies out, I can't see as it would make any difference. - 17:43:20 on 5 Nov 97 GMT

PETER:--ROB--One of the most difficult things I encounter when talking about Rand is trying to enscapulate all she says in a few catch phrases. Yes, many find her authoratative, and as Carl suggests "right wing". I heard about her for at least twenty years and always had an impression like that for years. Many in the "philosophical community" scorn her like no other, and many think she is the most brilliant and profound philosopher in history. I find that in some areas, her findings are somewhat weak and out-dated, but her strength lies in the area of ethics. Some may view her as being authoratative--but all she really is saying is " Look everybody--you've got a mind. It is your greatest asset. Use the goddam thing." She says that to think requires "effort" and a graet deal of people have gone through most of their lives using as little thinking as it takes to get by--and then they wonder why they are miserable. A great deal of people have been convinced that it is terrifying to themselves to use their minds to its fullest capacity, not recognizing the fact that to USE it, is where a person gains self-esteem, self-confidence. They assume that using one's mind is a tenous, unnatural action--when in fact that it is the bery source of one's own self-fulfillment, knowledge, pride , integrity and happiness. I don't think that's being authoratative, but probably as reasonable a thing that I can imagine anyone ever saying. - 17:44:19 on 5 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:PETER: I was only going on impressions, but as I said, I'll have to try and read some for myself. - 17:49:52 on 5 Nov 97 GMT

--ROB--Inasfar as your comment " I don't view any philosophy to be necessary" is interesting. All what philosophy is is a set of beliefs, or conclusions one pocesses. No person could function at all with some sort of philosophy as a guide. Some peolple call themselves philosophers and write books defending what they feel are legitimate beliefs. One then can consider what those philosophers say, or your parents, friends, teacher, professor, bartender, mechanic, favourite rock star, and your own inner knowledge and then from that information, form a set of beliefs you feel is the best on to which you guide your activties by. As one gains knowledge thoughout his life, he learns to reject some thing what he hears as a pile on nonsense, or what he hears makes sense and is applicable to reality; and the only person he can do that for is himself. Rand, addressed this directly in her philosophy , by stating that it is the sole responsibilty of each person to be able to distinguish reality, from fiction, truth from falsehood. Her philosophy WAS about philosophy. One of my favourite quotes by her is:" Your only choice is whether you define your philosophy by a conscious, rational, disciplined process of thought and scrupulously logical deliberation--or let your subconscious accumulate a junk heap of unwarranted conclusions, false generalizations, undefined contradictions, undigested slogans, unidentified wishes, doubts and fears, thrown together by chance, but integrated by your subconscious into a kind of mongrel philosophy and fused into a single, solid weight: SELF DOUBT, like a ball and chain in the place where your mind's wing's should have grown"--Sound like anybody you know? - 18:10:50 on 5 Nov 97 GMT

Carl:PETER: The small bit that I came away with, i scanned over table of contents chapter premises, etc., left me with the same impression, "you have a mind." I am only curious as to how those other element got into play. As I said, I might have to read her just to handle those advocate-types, because her efforts would not be the first of good thoughts to be steared into unfavorable straits. - 18:15:28 on 5 Nov 97 GMT

PETER:--ROB--If one wants to initially get a general idea of what Rand's philosophy was all about , read her book " Atlas Shrugged " - 18:17:36 on 5 Nov 97 GMT

PETER:--CARL--Yes, the only way I could answer that is read "Atlas Shrugged" yourself. - 18:23:18 on 5 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:-->STEVEN..re your comment regarding Hindus. I think that they have entered into as many holy wars as any other religion. Just ask a Punjab. I don't think any religion is exempt from aggressive force. - 18:50:51 on 5 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:PETER: (I presume that long post was from you) I think you are confusing what I said. I did not infer that philosophy in general was unnecessary, I was inferring that no one particular philosophy was necessary. As for not being able to function without philosophy, I would suggest you could through instinct, but that was not the topic my initial comment was concerned with. - 19:26:16 on 5 Nov 97 GMT

Steven:JOETTE, unfortunatly I know very little concerning the Hindu, other that their philosophy of non violence. I may need to educate myself about mythologys other than christianity etc... - 19:32:13 on 5 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:PETER: Regardless of that (which was my fault for being ambiguous), I would still disagree with Rand when she starts using words like "responsibility". True, having beliefs that agree with reality will favour survival, but I still would not make the step of elevating that to an absolute. Just as a thought, if, as you say Rand states, it is the responsibility of each person to be able to distinguish reality from fiction, then does that mean the mentally ill are neglecting their responsibilities? - 19:42:46 on 5 Nov 97 GMT

PETER:--ROB--What would you then suggest as an alternative? Who takes responsibilty for one's actions, other than themselves? Perhaps I should have used the term "ultimate responsisbilty". No one can think for anyone else , any more than he can breathe, digest food for another. People can SUGGEST things to another, but only one's own mind can think for himself? And yes, the mentally ill are neglecting their responsibilties ( whether done deliberately or not ), if they are are unable to distinguish reality from fiction. That is one determining factor in defining someone as insane--and often the very determining factor when judging one as mentally incompetent in a court of law. And yes, one particular philosophpy (from another person) is not only unnecessary, but it would be impossible or anyone to practise. But remember, everyone has a philosophy. It's just that some put a name on theirs and write books about it. It's just that some can support the basis of their philosophy better than others. - 20:01:12 on 5 Nov 97 GMT

Carl:OPEN: If that post to ROB about philosophy might be considered another good view and response to the mystics that regularly ask some at this site to join them, the no thanks ought to be clearly understood. But, how many other such responses had such clarity, and have fallen on ears and eyes not joined to ones' brain. The problem hasta'be that these mystics are ugly, or so unbecoming in appearance, like those PK types in DC, that the only lovin'they can count on is in their imagination. - 20:05:13 on 5 Nov 97 GMT

PETER:--Yup, we all gotta keep our eyes out for ole' Satan and his dreaded PUPET all right. In fact if your name is "Jack" and you have the misfortune of going to hell--you just may become a "Jack-in-the-Pupet". - 20:36:56 on 5 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:Peter: I am not suggesting an alternative. My philosphy is a non-authoritative one, so I don't feel the need to go attributing responsibilty to anyone. Yes people have to "live" with the results of their actions. If someone tries to beat me up, I am going to give them a good slap, but not because of my philosophy, but because of my natural reaction to the situation. I think it would be possible for "one particular philosophy", in terms of adopting a set of rules for what you do/believe in, but obviously not everyone could have the same beliefs. Neither do I disagree that everyone has a philosophy, providing the word philosophy is defined well enough. Back to the mentally ill though, if we don't condemn them on the grounds that they don't deliberately neglect their responsibility, can we then safely condemn the mystics, if they genuinely believe what they worship? (Forgive me for playing devil's advocate a little here, but I think it is important to clarify these things). - 20:59:55 on 5 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:-->ROB..re your questioning the responsibility of a mentally challenged thoughts, deeds, or actions. Yes, it is they whom is responsible, but they are not necessarily accountable. No can be responsible for the way a mentally ill person thinks, only they can think for themselves, no matter how convoluted their thought process may be. However, we should not confuse responsibility with accountability. Does this help? - 21:35:40 on 5 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:JOETTE: Of course, I wasn't for one minute suggesting the mentally ill were accountable, but my question is that if the mentally ill are granted immunity from accountability, by virtue of their not deliberately neglecting responsibility, could not also the mystic be granted immunity on the same grounds? - 21:53:29 on 5 Nov 97 GMT

Carl:ANY: So far the one tenable point that probably most here would agree to, is that dispite the differences of "philosophy", what each of us do do, we base our words upon our tangible experiences. An aspect that we enjoy comes with the dynamics of an ever-changing nature. That our views of it are different is because that is how it is, must be. For my own part, I like the significance of math. - 22:02:50 on 5 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:-->ROB..well, then would you suggest the mystics should not be responsible because they refuse to acknowledge reason, if they are considered "well" persons? - 22:07:33 on 5 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:-->CARL..well said! - 22:10:04 on 5 Nov 97 GMT

jaywilson:RICHARD: The translation of the Russian word 'Chernobyl' is, I have read, 'wormwood'; however, you may wish to ascertain this 'factoid'. - 22:16:46 on 5 Nov 97 GMT

Carl:JOETTE: the non-existence of the mystics, shades of a final solution, but i gotta go with you, they can be an exasperating lot! We've seen a few here in the past few monthes but as we have also seen they can not keep up their contentions. My guess is that they begin to feel their ignorance turning into early stages and shades the color of stupidity. So they stop but then periodically drop in, just to satisfy their misguided ego. - 22:21:33 on 5 Nov 97 GMT

Steven:ANY, so should a person who commits murder be set free after some cousleing. For exaple: Jeffry Domer was a man who committed many murders that were a bit disturbing. Should Jeff been able to seek medical/mental help for his illness and not punished for the crimes he did commit? - 22:28:34 on 5 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:-->STEVEN..if a person knows the difference between right and wrong, and if they realize the consequence of their action may lead to imprisonment, then under the law they are considered "sane", and therefore would be punished. If they are found legally "insane" then they do not just get counselling: they are usually committed to a facility for the rest of their lives, or for as long as they would be incarcerated in a prison for. The only case that stands out in my mind that the person was not held accountable for her actions was Lorena Bobbitt. I think (and this is a mere opinion) that people who are criminally insane spending short times in cages is a modern urban myth. Sorry if I sound like I am lecturing. It is a subject near and dear to my heart. - 22:37:35 on 5 Nov 97 GMT

ADAM Is it warming here, or am I crazy?:Joette: Perhaps "myth" is too strong, but global warming is only a theory that is unsupported by the evidence, and yet environmentalists and the medis have actually placed remedying it on the geopolitical agenda as if it was occuring! Idiots like Clinton and Gore appear to have bought in to this nonsense, although in Clinton's case it necessarily is a matter of political expedience. I'm sorry, I didn't get your "franchise" question. - 23:11:03 on 5 Nov 97 GMT

Adam APOCALYPSE WOW!:Richard: Given that the scriptures you cite are legend authored by men rather than gospel, it matters not to me what they purport to "foretell." My point simply is that there a a large number of known, and an untold number of unknown, celestial bodies in near-miss or perhaps collision orbits, and asteroids can always be perturbed into such orbits by bodies such as Jupiter. Impacts on earth have always and will continue to occur. Given that asteroids presently are the leading suspects in periodic mass extinctions, and that the object that blew up over Tunguska, Siberia early this century, flattening hundreds of square miles, is thought to have been no more than a hundred meters or so in length, THERE IS NO MORE IMPORTANT ISSUE of PUBLIC POLICY than the detection of such objects and the development of contingency plans to deal with them. - 23:24:00 on 5 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:-->ADAM.."exercising your franchise" is what we from the nord refer to as voting. I agree that the detection of asteroids is of utmost importance, but I do not agree that it should be the public priority. With bullshit movies like "Asteroid" (which was as scientically INcorrect as Hollywood could make it), "Independence Day", and the like, people are believing that events such as these are bound to happen at any moment. The detection of an asteroid that would wipe out mankind, the size of the one that most probably wiped out the dinosaurs, would be detected with the equipment that is currently in place. The chance of it happening are what, 14 billion to 1 currently? I heard a report last night that some scientists believe that by the 24th century, there will no longer be gravity, so for those who thinks the world sucks, stick around till then! - 23:37:01 on 5 Nov 97 GMT

Adam HIS PROCESS ARE INSANE!:Steven: There is a movement within the law to move to a "guilty but insane" plea or verdict, which would hold the perp accountable but acknowledge the impaired state of his/her moral reasoning. This, however, is of questionable validity---it certainly goes against centuries of legal precedent holding that mens rea, or "guilty mind," is an ELEMENT of any specific-intent offense (statutory rape, by contrast, is an example of "general intent" crime, requiring no particular mens rea). As such, if one is unable to understand the "wrongness" of an act, or in some states the consequences of that act, there is in fact NO CRIME committed, but merely a wrongful act that does not fall within the confines of the criminal code. Your query about remediated insanity is an ongoing hot topic. The traditional view (often under fire) is that if the best professional opinion is that a person is no longer a harm to himself/herself or others, there can be no involuntary confinement. Couple that with the fact that a crime technically was not committed pre-remediation, and you have a classic scenario for debating when individual freedoms are a detriment to free society at large. - 0:31:26 on 6 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:JOETTE: It depends on whether mystics think their beliefs are reasonable or not. As for punishement, I think it would depend on my personal perception of a crime as to whether I would punish or take steps to ensure it didn't happen again. In practice, though, it is the collated opinions of society that decide what is done, but this has nothing to do with any absolute moral laws/philosophies. Regarding the asteroid, I personally don't see why we should have to preserve mankind in its present form. Seems like pissing against the wind to me- and besides, on what grounds (other than our instinct to survive) do we worry about what happens to the human race when we die? - 0:37:42 on 6 Nov 97 GMT

Adam INSANE in the MEMBRANE:Joette, I'm not sure about being committed for the same length as the prison sentence. Ordinarily, it is committed until certifiably no longer a threat. If someone is committed for a fixed term, then they indeed were not relieved of culpability for the offense. In Lorena's case, the determination was the oft-questioned "temporary insanity," under which culpability for the wrongful act is relieved, and yet the perp is automatically deemed not a threat. - 0:40:31 on 6 Nov 97 GMT

ADAM Great Balls of Fire:Jo: I disagree on the impact thing. For one, considering that the potential consequence is extinction, reliance on "odds" should be minimized. I repeat, moreover, that major impacts appear to happen fairly regularly, and catastrophic ones perhaps every few millenia. Detection, I would add, is not the only problem; deflection or other remedy is the greater chore. Presently, there are only a handful of earthbound telescopes that are EVER devoted to this effort. - 0:46:47 on 6 Nov 97 GMT

Adam STAYIN' ALIVE:Rob: Why is it not sufficient that the instinct for preservation dictate that we act in furtherance of said instinct? - 0:50:18 on 6 Nov 97 GMT

Adam FRANCHISE FITNESS:Joette: Yes, I did exercise my franchise, and BOY! are my arms tired! - 0:52:16 on 6 Nov 97 GMT

Joette the superbug:-->ADAM..I do agree with you about deflection, but it is my understanding that the good guys and gals at NASA and the like are working strenuously on this potential occurence as we speak. Lo siento mi amigo, but I have put some trust in the scientists who endeavour to keep the earth out of harm's way from the wormwoods out there. I do not think that an alarm need be raised about this issue. As I stated last night, more concern and dollars should be devoted to the new reto-virus' that keep appearing. - 0:58:09 on 6 Nov 97 GMT

ADAM CIAO:I'm out for the night, gang. Gotta funeral tomorrow, so may not be on until late tomorrow, if at all. See y'all sune. - 1:00:04 on 6 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:-->ADAM..bulletin...did you hear Davey Johnson quit today? - 1:01:24 on 6 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:-->MARLENE...wherefore art thou? - 1:20:46 on 6 Nov 97 GMT

Joette :-->ROB..of course the mystics feel that their beliefs are reasonable, therefore, they are responsible for their beliefs and subsequent actions. Have you been privy to any xtians admitting that their beliefs are unreasonable? Not I, said the cat! - 2:18:10 on 6 Nov 97 GMT

PETER:--JOETTE--But if you do point out they are unreasonable theyattempt to rescue their original claims by saying it is "beyond" or "above" reason. They then claim victory, but are unaware, or refuse to concede that when one goes beyond reason, they are automatically join the realm of the irrational. This is a manouvre often used by Quake, Richard and the like, with zippo results. It obviously worked on them, so they assume it to be a legitimate method of convincing any doubt. Guess what? Nobody bought it here and rightfully so. They refuse to understand that anyone could then use that same logic as they deem as valid, and then when unable to demonstrate ANY claim using reason--regardless of how unsupported and outlandish it may be, just say that thier claim is "beyond" reason, or "above" reason, and then smugly sit back and call those who don't buy their particular brand of "reason" as being fools, childish--and then just attach any quality they wish to the claim which is "beyond "reason. It as meaningless as spouting a series of gibberish sounds, or none at all. But amazingly enough, they STILL come in here and try to pull it off! Mindboggling. - 3:13:15 on 6 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene..ain't it beautiful!:WOW, I had to go back nearly 100. It's really good to see everyone discussing interesting things. Back to normal! I think..STEVE- Hey I love you too man and I love Joette, Carl, jaywilson, Adam, Peter, Bill, Grant, Melissa, Ron and every other atheist and agnostic on this page. Now as far as xtians go, James be the boy I love although he no longer posts here. Isn't this a loving place. There is absolutely no need for the jesus freaks to love us we gots more than we could ever need! BTW I hate puppets! - 5:04:25 on 6 Nov 97 GMT

RICHARD:Jaywilson; Thyankoyu foryourmkind reply about 'wormwood' I ased ADAm the question, but becuae he is NOT interested to KNOW, he was NOt bale to give me any info if indeed he had any. Adam is much concerned with the earth being hit by some celestial body, yet even though he took NO notice of my use from the APOCALYPSE, he did not even seem concerned about the NAME of the star mentioned therein. I thought that seeing many here are 'learned' in the (sciences)then some one may have had some knowledge of a celestial body with the Greek name (Absynthe) but alas all the knowledge they have did not meet the question. Ah well as a famous Australian Bushranger said before they hanged him, 'Such is life' - 5:11:59 on 6 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:Now MHO on crime and punishment. Firstly unless someone is truly insane the person who is doing or has done the crime normally hides the fact that he's done and tries to cover the evidence so he/she won't get caught. Obviously they know that what they have done or are doing is against the law. I truly feel the Bobbit woman should have been held responsible. Dalhmer also knew what he was doing but IMO would have not been able to feel remorse. Interesting that he became "born again" while in prison. I also understand he behaved well in prison. I suppose this guy needed a "watcher". - 5:12:58 on 6 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:Now about philosophers. Without great thinkers where would we be? Although I can't say as I hold with any one philosophy, I do enjoy hearing about and reading other people's thoughts. Of course that excludes xtians as they can't seem to think for themselves. - 5:17:36 on 6 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:Has anyone else got a foot of snow on the ground or is it just in the north-western wastelands? - 5:19:10 on 6 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:More on crime and punishment. I think evaluation is the key to successful rehab. There are some prisoners who have found the lord in jail and are considered (all of a sudden) "not likely to re-offend". Problem is some of these people are in jail for crimes they committed in order to support a drug or alcohol habit. All they do is trade one crutch for another. Almost always, when out, they return to their drug or alcohol habit. Councelling in self-esteem would be a much more helpful tool and would help the prisoner to throw all the crutches away. - 5:27:37 on 6 Nov 97 GMT

Grant:PETER-- I'm no Rand expert, but I think people have the most problems with the "egoism over altruism" beliefs. It goes against traditional religious values, and I think many are not willing to consider that an altruistic approach may not be the most beneficial. For example it's hard to not help someone even though doing so may prevent him/her from learning to help him/herself. I can remember having this problem with Rand at first exposure. I thought she was saying "me first- screw everybody else." - 5:54:52 on 6 Nov 97 GMT

Grant:MARLENE-- In a similar vein, I'm not sure that I agree with you about teaching self-esteem. If a person lands in prison because he is preying on society, teaching him to like himself may not benefit society. Maybe better to show him how he can gain self-esteem by having respect for the rights of others and pulling his weight. He may be more likely to change if he doesn't like himself, if he can be convinced that he can earn his own respect. Well, maybe not. ;-) - 6:17:41 on 6 Nov 97 GMT

Seed time, and Harvest time.....sound funny?? Not really. NOTHING just happens. I have a question? If the Big bang theory is infact true (which it isn't. It is exactly what it says.... a theory.) What caused it to go "BANG!"?? It didn't just go "BANG!" all by itself?? So what happened. Ever thought abput the fact that the little ameba, floating in the sea, had to come from somewhere?? Ever stoped to think that if we all did come from some kind of little living cell...wouldn't it stand to reason, that that little thing didn't just "POP!" into existance?? Wouldn't it stand to reason. that if a farmer is going to get a harvest, then he must plant seed? I often wonder about with the law of cause and effect, or seed and Harvest, how we can just think that the world, with all of us in it, just popped into existance. ALSO, there are hugry children, dieing people, things happen, and we like to say it is Gods fault. All along, we tend to forget the cause and effect law. If a child gets hit by a car, then the child wasn't looking; if grandma Joe dies, it is because she was old; if Betty Sue dies in the ICU ward, its cause she was on drugs; if Joe gets in a car reck and dies, it is because a drunk driver hit him. Why do people blame everything on God. And that is what athiests do. You all know that there is a higher force. You are also scared to death to think that there is a hell, and therefore choose not to. But I am just as sorry as I can be; It doesn't change the real fact that there is one. There is a heaven too. No Pain, No Sorrow, No Tears, No Night, No Death, No Sad Goodbyes, No Darkness... ever again. If everything has its place, and if nothing happends without a cause, then why are we here?? There has got to be a reason for it. It was no accident. It was no effect, without a cause... there was no "Big Bang", and if there was, it was because God said it, and "BANG!" it happened. You see? Well, of course you do. Pride will make you say that I am a fool for saying so, but your heart will tell you that I am right, and that there is a higher force out there, and that you are not alone. You think , when you sleep at night you are alone, but you are not alone.... there are other things out there. There is evil that lurks in the night, seeking whome he may devour, and he chooses to devour you, or has he already?? All the time, there is another, seeking to save you form the very grips of Darkness. The coice is yours.... To believe or to choose not to......The end is Perminate.....There is a heaven..but will you be there? - 8:46:28 on 6 Nov 97 GMT

.:The anonimous small change chicken pucky, is exactly that. - 10:47:19 on 6 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:-->I for one am not scared to death of anything (except being in an airplane), and I am not scared to attach my name to my posts. Would that some of these fundies had the same attitude. - 12:47:28 on 6 Nov 97 GMT

Grant:ANONY-MOUSE-- Yes, I can see how the conclusion that things didn't just pop into existance logically leads to the conclusion that there is an eternal bearded being sitting on a throne on a cloud, who has created a firey pit in which to place those of his creations that didn't quite turn out as intended. - 13:13:29 on 6 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- I agree! I actually read that post. I guess from now on, posts with no "creator" won't be read by me. - 13:22:12 on 6 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:GRANT- One needs to earn their self-esteem. That's what I mean by proper evaluation. Self-esteem isn't just handed over because someone accepts jee-zus into their heart or it's not earned by stepping on someone elses space. Some people have to be shown the first step in gaining some self-esteem and this is where rehab can begin. Of course, if they are not willing to learn or not capable (like Cliff Olsen) then there is not much we can do but keep them away from the rest of society. - 13:27:06 on 6 Nov 97 GMT

PETER:--GRANT--What you said about Rand is how most people view her writing concerning ethics. She wrote a book called " THe Virtue of Selfishness" which makes people flinch when they hear the title. All these misconceptions of her can be traced back to the actual definitiond of the words "altruism" and "selfishness". Traditional religious teaching has taught society that altruism means " kindness, caring, generous and noble"--and selfish as a synonym for evil. What Rand says about altruism is: "The basic principle of altruism is that man has no right to exist for his own sake, that service to others is the only justification for his existence, and that self-sacrifice is his highest moral duty, virtue and value. Do not confuse altruism with kindness, good will or respect for the rights of others. These are not primaries, but consequences, which, in fact, altruism makes IMPOSSIBLE. The irreducible primary of altruism, the basic absolute is SELF-SACRIFICE--which means; self-immolation, self-abnegation, self-denial, self-destruction--which means: the SELF as the standard of evil, the SELFLESS as the standard of good" What she says about the term "selfishness" is that it simply means: concern with one's own interest.. It does not include a moral evaluation, it does not say whether it is good or evil; nor does it tell us what constitutes man's actual interests. In a nutshell all Rand really says is that you really can't help anybody, or be kind and generous, unless you have taken care of yourself first--because you have to have something before you can give it. It all goes back to self-responsibity being the starting point--as one can only think for himself--and that is where the moral codes it must begin. This is rather difficult to clarify in a few sentences, but again if one is interested , they should just read one of her books--and the one I recommend the most is "Atlas Sruggged"--or one called "Pholosophy: Who Needs It" - 13:34:26 on 6 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:GRANT- I agree that altruism has been stressed as the code to live by. The reality is that no one is truly altrisic. Our personal goal is to survive. If we all truly practiced altruism there wouldn't be much of a species left. Are we ready to eat a bowl of rice a day and give the rest of our grocery money to other countries where people are starving. While this looks good on paper, I'm not ready to do it. One of my excuses would be, is that I would soon croak if I ate only rice then where would my family be. How many xtians out there would eat that bowl of rice. If they choose not to then they are no really xtians. Wouldn't you agree? - 13:42:07 on 6 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:PETER- You beat me too it! Rand said it much better than I possibly could. - 13:44:40 on 6 Nov 97 GMT

Grant:MARLENE-- PETER-- That was sloppy use of the word "altruism" on my part. I fully appreciate your points. - 13:48:46 on 6 Nov 97 GMT

PETER:--TO ALL---I have recently contemplated how the general concept of God have changed since mankind first manifested this concept. I am sure that during the days when the characters in the Bible lived, he was envisioned as some mysterious being who lived above, or in the clouds, and that upthere somewhere--in the clouds--was heaven where he lived. People back then had no knowledge to think otherwise , so the thought of him being there was totally plausible and comforting--and people had no reason to doubt his existence. However as man gained more and more knowledge, and found his existence to be a necessary force to explain natural phenmomena, and began to expose all his alledged "hiding places"--those that believed just became sneakier, and realized that the justification for his existence had to always stay one step ahead of human knowledge. Well the "god of the gaps" has found fewer and fewer places to hide--in fact I think he has run out of places. However, the result is now that the notion God has become far more diabolically deceptive than ever. One must use twisted logic to convince the doubter--hoping he has little ability in critical thinking. The theists in their attempts to demonstrate his existence are now being forced to attack the very methods that man has used to gain knowledge. However, when searching for knowledge in another pursuit, the theists totyally accpet , and implement these very methods themselves. This is evidenced by their attack on logic, and evolution to name a few. The trend I see is that as the theists beliefs become squeezed--they are forced to become more viscious--and this is why I believe this "born-again" movement of the past few decades has increased. So I am wondering when the theists will eventually be squeezed away forever--will they be forced to become meaner and more diabolically decptive as this process inevitably increases? What type of being will this manifest? Look at Quake and Richard. I believe this is the beginning of a trend, that may decrease in numbers, but as they do their feeling of being "squeezed" becomes more intense. - 14:00:22 on 6 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:GRANT- No, I don't think it was a sloppy use of the word. In fact, I think it is the correct use of the word. I suppose my point is that true altruism isn't possible for humanity. Even for that death cult, xtianity. - 14:00:32 on 6 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:PETER- I agree. But I think this trend started appoximately 15 years ago. Around here anyway. This is was the birth of the "born agains" around here. In the immediate area that I live in, most people's ancestory is French or Metis. The only churches 15 years ago were huge monsterous catholic ones. (The one thing about xtianity that I like is the beautiful buildings). Then came the "born-again" movement. People left the catholic church and created their own churches, often importing pastors from the US. They built even bigger more modern churches. Many of the younger people joined this movement. The coming of the born-agains caused real havoc in this community. Families were not speaking. If the wife joined then the husband had to too or they encouraged her to leave him. This happened in two instances that I know of and both husbands joined rather than loose their families. Now they too are brainwashed. There was a lot of hate because of this and a few times fires were set at the born-again church. These members of this church have now infiltrated everything! The PTA, the Girl Guides and Boy Scouts, the community commities, the municiple positions etc. etc. They are really gaining momentum. Now the newest crap, the pk's. Scary! - 14:15:04 on 6 Nov 97 GMT

PETER:--RICHARD--Can you give brief description of the following? (a) a star (b) a "shooting star" (c) a comet (d) an asteroid (e) a planet (f) a meteor (g) a meteorite (h)the milky way. Also, other than the sun, what is the closest star to our solar system, and approximately how far away is it? - 14:28:43 on 6 Nov 97 GMT

Chris:is anyone here? - 14:33:16 on 6 Nov 97 GMT

Chris:Hello?????? - 14:36:21 on 6 Nov 97 GMT

Chris:Guess not.......... Bye - 14:37:06 on 6 Nov 97 GMT

PETER:--MARLENE--It IS getting scary, and what scares me is that this "born again" movement offers a "way" which is the abandonment of one's mind. As I said, in ancient times, it was easy to convince others there was a God, but now if one is commited to logical inquiry--there isn't one. Therefore one must either ignore, or challenge and defy logic to reconcile their " fuzzy-feeling" beliefs. And the more one dfies, the fuzzier the feeling. Not only do I think this is scary, I think it's as heinously as anti-huhan, anti-life an action as one could imagine. And yes, the PK's are a manifestation of this mind-set in action. - 14:38:10 on 6 Nov 97 GMT

PETER:--CHRIS--Hello??????..are you the same "CHRIS" that was here a few months back, and then disappeared? - 14:41:16 on 6 Nov 97 GMT

PETER:--MARLENE--Also, I intended to mention that those who become "born again" tend to use other for "support" --thus destroying individuality--encouraging collectivism--which then manifests into a "mob" i.e.---Promise Keepers - 14:46:17 on 6 Nov 97 GMT

PETER-:PETER- Again agreed! I'm not sure if you were here when Tony(the religion teacher) subjected his little lambs to this discussion. When these kids posted they sounded just like the Borg. It WAS eerie! I suppose support in itself is useful when dealing with some horrendous problem, I've needed that type of support myself. But when totally abandon's their own mind they cease to an individual but a PUPPET of the collective. - 14:54:45 on 6 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:OOPS! That was from MARLENE to PETER - 14:55:47 on 6 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:YOI! I'm forgetting all the little stuff like "they" and "be"! I think I need some fresh air. Back in a while! - 14:58:10 on 6 Nov 97 GMT

PETER:--MARLENE--Right on. And what is the first thing one comprimises when they become a blind follower? Reason. - 15:08:44 on 6 Nov 97 GMT

PETER:--MARLENE--Right on. And what is the first thing one comprimises when they become a blind follower? Reason. I'm glad I missed those "little lambs"! - 15:28:23 on 6 Nov 97 GMT

Steven:PETER, i do believe that the borg episodes are the attempt of the creators of the show to campare the borg to christianity. I don't know about where you live, but the christian freaks where I live have never lost any power. The have their hands in everything. I do believe that down here there are more and more atheists every day. The problem is that christianity is more or less like a virus. Children do not have the power to fight the brainwashing that the christians force upon them. - 15:45:44 on 6 Nov 97 GMT

Carl:ANY: Yesterday, while prowling through bookstore aisles, I saw Hitlers "Mein Kampf" thought of purchasing it but as I looked thru its contents, the thought came to me that it sure seemed like I was reading the bible. The chosen people the promised land treatment of others if they can't recognise one's devine given rights, etc., so I figured to sleep on it first. I mention that here as having read in Shirers Rise and Fall story how reason seems to have taken on that proverbial "fuzziness" that PETER mentions. So the PK thing and born again stuff does have historical references when reason becomes marshmellow like. That sure seems like what the mystic-visitors (of and for a god they say) so desire to remove from any who favor reason. They say,"reason, yeah right, but jc\god\the holy spirit\the virgin\the cross\the church\the soul\the resurrection\the commandments and so on", all unnatural and clearly in utter disdain for any form of reason. All one has to do is look at that line of words and they could quietly say,"what in the fuck is that shit?" There is no anger with my use of those words, only an effort to convey a meaning in terms appropriate for such stupidity. - 16:00:36 on 6 Nov 97 GMT

Carl:STEVEN: How you doing there tex? I see you texans in Houston rejected a version of the Californian 209 thing. I was very impressed by what the Houston mayor said, i can't quote it, but in effect he said times are good for all and that there was no reason to prevent more from enjoying these good times. Sure seemed progressive and not backward stepping like the CA.governor's words made it seem. - 16:14:35 on 6 Nov 97 GMT

Steven:CARL, is the Cal. 209 thing concerning equal opportunity? - 16:31:41 on 6 Nov 97 GMT

PETER:--STEVEN--The christian/children issue is interesting. When I went Sunday school as a child, they taught things about kindness and sharing etc.--all as arbitrary commands of course, but on a childish level it does teach some basic form of ethics--but even at that age I found these "morals" as being given as a command, and my parents already told me about all this stuff anyway--I just think that they wanted it re-inforced with what I would perceive as a heavy-handed, no-nonsense approach. However I have a 17 year old daughter who has only been in a church during a funeral or a wedding. She did manage to get her "moral" guidance at home --with reasons given for each ethic that was presented to her--and I could safely say she is probably the most "moral" of any of her friends. The question I suppose is: Is it necessary for a child to attend church to learn her "morals"? I say, no its not, but one must then , as a parent, take on this responsibility themself--and obviously many do not--whether they be atheists or theists. I say if a child feels the need to attend church, I wouldn't stop them, but I certainly would make sure how to examine things critically, if for no other reason that it being an important benefit for him/her in their future pursuits. By doing so, hopefully they will reject any theistic beliefs, recognize their shortcomings--just as my daughter has done. - 16:45:15 on 6 Nov 97 GMT

PETER:--CARL--Excellent post! And the shame of it all is that the fundies would just poo-poo all you said here, for no other reason than the terror of facing the prospect that there is no God, and rescue him from the world of un-belief--and that is sad. - 16:51:08 on 6 Nov 97 GMT

Carl:STEVEN: 209 was about "no preferences" for certain state related interests. In and of itself it has certain idealistic favors, it could however, not see controling people focusing instead on economic financial matters. - 17:01:30 on 6 Nov 97 GMT

Steven:PETER, you must not have attended the same sect as I did. I was forced to go to a sect called 'the church of christ'. Part of their dogma is that every person other than those going to the COC will go strait to hell. We were continually held in check by Pastors, Elders, Deacons etc.. by being told that everyone sins daily, that even thinking about a sin was sinfull. The frightened us children with horrible stories of people burning in hell for eternity. I was told that sex was a evil, dirty thing that was never to be done before marriage. Even thinking about sex was a sin. We were told as children that Masterbation was an unforgivable sin against god. There was no dancing, no wearing shorts, no makeup for the girls etc... They believed in talking in tongues etc.. I was forced to believe that anyone that was different black, yellow, red etc.. was wrong and they would be going to hell. I was brainwashed to believe that communism would soon take the world over unless we killed them all. They used to put us in small rooms and have us pretend that we lived in Russia and that at any moment soldiers would be busting in the door to execute us, so we had to pray and sing very quitly. To me, the person that allows his/her children into any church eviroment is doing their child a grave injustice. These christian fucks put the majority of their energy into brainwashing children to the point that they do not question their beliefs once they achieve adulthood. So, Peter, allowing my children to step into a churck will NEVER happen. I believe that part of what I wish to achieve with my life is starting the process of exterminating the thoughts and beliefs that lead to believing in a christian god. I believe that the greatest harm you can do to a child is to allow them access to any church, period. My children will be raised with the knowledge that the church/christianity is their mortal enemy. I could probably go on and on but my fingers are getting sick of typing. - 17:26:36 on 6 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:PETER- I see no need for any child to go to Sunday school. All I learned to do there was color. Of course parents are responsible for teaching their children morals but as children become adults they normally set their own idea of morals. For instance, the people who raised me, my great aunt and uncle, would have thought it morally wrong for me not to believe in god. My great-grandmother would have thought it morally wrong to wear jeans, etc. etc. Again, to me, morals are based relative to the society who practise them. - 17:35:30 on 6 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:PETER: That is an important point you have raised regarding the upbringing of children. I think we have already discussed the fallacy that religion and moral standards are inseprable. When put in the perspective that they are both evolved traits, it's not that hard to see that morality can have a future without religion. As for how that morality evolves, I believe that will be determined by the characteristics of the human mind. In the future, I suspect we will look back upon religion as a transitional phase between instinctive/survival orientated thinking and the types of thinking that humans appear to be progressing toward (i.e, involving art, philosophy, recreation etc). I'm not exactly sure what label one might attribute to this newer "higher" form of thought- perhaps it might orientate around projectionism? I don't really know, as I can't predicit the future. What would be fascinating was if we were to experience other animals making this transition, to see whether they behave in a similar fashion. - 17:42:39 on 6 Nov 97 GMT

PETER:--STEVEN--Sounds like quite a church! And I can see why you wouldn't want any child to attend it. I would be certain that they know the difference between a belief and a person, and to be able to know WHY religion is harmful, and that those who embrace these beliefs only do so, not because they are "bad" but because they think it is correct--but as you say, your children must be made aware of the harmful consequences associated with religious beliefs. - 17:44:24 on 6 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:STEVEN- Good for you for breaking out of that horrendous trap! That sounds positively horrible! I did have a friend who lived with pentacostals (sp), she was a foster child and native to boot. She wasn't allowed to dance either nor wear short skirts etc. BUT we danced anyway and she just kept her short skirts in a locker at school. I've lost complete track of her now though. The last I heard was that she married a doctor and lives in the NWT's. I hope she totally escaped the crap that her foster parents laid on her and didn't perpetuate it in her own home. - 17:44:44 on 6 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:ROB- I think you may be on target. To some god invented morals but as we know people invented god. Kind of full circle, no? - 17:48:11 on 6 Nov 97 GMT

Peter:--ROB--Religion is like the old eight-track tape players. They were at one time intended to serve a purpose--did a lousy job of it--and the smarter people got, the more they rejected them--and the red-necks and the stupid peolple were the last to embrace them with uncomprimising reverence. All we need now as is the the introduction of a CD-player style of thinking to complete the process. If one wants to extend this analogy further, listening to Quake, Richard and the like is hearing one say " I don't care what anyone else says, the eight-track tape is the best method that exists for reproducing sound" - 18:22:30 on 6 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:CANADIAN NEWS UPDATE- The latest Canadian poll on euthanasia is that 3/4 of Canadians support euthanasia. The provinces of Quebec and BC were the strongest on allowing euthanasia. In Manitoba 2/3 of the people polled supported it. - 18:38:26 on 6 Nov 97 GMT

PETER:--MARLENE--...but..but..it goes against the word of God!!! - 18:52:26 on 6 Nov 97 GMT

Carl:PETER: The 8trk.connection, another good ditty, but alas! how would, how could anyone do for those who as the more recent visitors seem to lock out anything reasonable for the sake a meaningless book? Many who are not advocates of some god might not object to discussing matters with these individuals except that they invariably, to date, engage in nonsense like the paste and copy action that this site has put-up with, in a very civilised way. But, they do the things they do for the sake of words written by those little better than ignorant cavemen, so our civilised conduct was forthcoming. - 19:08:56 on 6 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:CARL- The lord says it's a sin to paste and copy! Good thing him/her that created the keyboard thought to install a pagedown key! - 19:25:56 on 6 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:PETER- You know the most surprising thing about this poll was that Quebec came in so strong! I suppose the rc's of that province aren't really xtians! I think what I would like to see is the law be made that every person has the right to choose when to die if inflicted with a terminal illness and most especially if there is a large amount of pain involved or one's mind is no longer there. I would want that right! - 19:30:08 on 6 Nov 97 GMT

Steven:MARLENE, it is beyond me why someone would wish to end their life. For me, when I am outside i see the beauty of life. The birds, ants, trees, grass etc... It is enough for me to understand that having life is a beautifull thing, not to be cast away or taken advantage of. The problem is that in today's society children are brought into a world of gloom and doom. The planet is being destroyed by human overpopulation. Very few human beings care about the wanton destruction that the themselves committ everyday. Where I live there are no untamed forests, no place safe from the trespasses of greedy evil men. Have human beings forgotten that by destroying nature we are destroying ourselves. Man has moved from takeing care of the earth, to twisting and manipulating nature for our own selfish ends. People say to me that I only find evil and doom in everything. That is not true. I look at what humans have done to the planet and continue to do the planet and it depresses me. I see lakes and rivers poluted to the point where no fish can live. I go to lakes and see beer bottles and caps, aluminum foil, plastic bags, siringes, and general garbage everywhere I look. I go to the zoo to see animals that no longer exist in the wild, because there is no wild or humans have killed them all except for those in a zoo. I see millions of cars which happen to be destroying the atmosphere, and the only reason that gasoline fueled cars are still on the road is because of big money and buisness. I ride down the road and see 100's of cigarette butts tossed out the window. I see fast food containers and wrappers tossed out onto the road. Humans have forgotten from wence they came. I saddens me to think that the only thing that will stop this behavior is the near extinction of humans by their own had, and will only happen once it affects them directly. So if someone wishes to kill themself, who cares. That will mean one less human to fuck up the planet. I have friends who have attempted to committ suicide (if they truly wanted death they would have taken a shotgun, put it in their mouth and pulled the trigger) and I say to them, why? Why kill yourself when you can take a step outside and see life, for I assure them that once they are dead their conciousness ceases to exist. The most screwed up thing about it is these people believe they are going to a better place. I think if more people realized that they only have one shot at life, people would learn to enjoy life and see all the beauty that life has to offer, if the rest of us don't fuck up the planet beyond recovery. - 19:37:43 on 6 Nov 97 GMT

Carl:STEVEN: Sort of along the lines o'your post, awhile back on tv I saw a program about this really ancient ship found near the shore of some mediterreanean country. When the wooden ship went under its cargo went down with it and served to save the ships integrity, somewhat. The really interesting thing was it size and age, it was hundreds of feet long and nearly a hundred wide. All made of wood, which they said was from the mountains of lebanon. At another time i saw a program about how the ancient mediterreanean world was probably paradisical in fauna and evergreen growth. But early humanity destroyed it for its commerce systems. Now, sorta'more recent, here in the bay area Vallejo writes of the Redwoods trees that were everywhere, some with diameters fifteen to twenty feet plus. He wrote that he would "harvest" them all, in ten years they were gone. Is this what you refer to. Well, someone's god says that how it is, - 19:53:02 on 6 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:-->STEVEN..I think Marlene is referring to persons who have no quality of life due to excessive brain damage, disease etc., or those who are suffering a great deal constantly. Euthansia does not apply to those with depressive disorders who just want to end it all, even though life has many nice things to offer. - 20:10:10 on 6 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:STEVEN- Joette said it for me. I think we were talking about religion and violence. One of the few religions that has a very keen sense of respecting nature is Jainism. I agree with Joette, when it comes to depressive disorders, a doctor can prescribe medicine for that ailment. Once that is done the quality of life returns. - 20:26:20 on 6 Nov 97 GMT

Steven:JOETTE<>MARLENE<<>> uhhhh, I originally meant to discuss the right for a human being to choose death if they so desire. If a person is suffering and wishes aid to end it, so what. I once again started rambling more depressing and sad stuff, i guess you could call it force of habit. JOETTE, ever since you mentioned the struggle in Canada between Natives of the area and the gov of Candada I have been doing research. I happen to like what the Mohawks and Cree have been doing. It seems appropriate and it appears to be working. - 20:39:59 on 6 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:PETER: And I suppose before the 8-track tapes they used to listen to biblical records? Demi Roussos sings the book of Paul- man that sure used to pack out them dance floors. Oh, and how could we forget (Little) Richard, and his rendition of the book of Revelations: "Goodness gracious, great balls of fire!" Joette: You beat me to it. If you start making them that don't wanna live stay alive, then you're gonna erode the self-responsibility that you take on when deciding to live. - 20:44:26 on 6 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- More and more information seems to be coming out about the Latimer case, at least from the news media in Manitoba. I think I may have to swallow my statement that what Latimer did was compassionate. From what I understand from reports heard today from a Winnipeg lawyer, Tracy was not always in pain. She was placed in a group home while her mother was in the final stages of pregnacy of another child just shortly before Mr. Latimer killed her. The group home's reports was that she seemed quite content and even happy. I also learned today that the Latimers were offered respite but refused it. The one thing that changed my mind though is that it seemed from the group home reports and from some of the neighbors that Tracy did enjoy some quality of life. Up until this last round in court,we here in Manitoba didn't hear this evidence. All we heard was that this "poor man" did what he did to end Tracy's unbearable pain. - 21:12:09 on 6 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:STEVEN- I'm not sure which site for the Aboriginal issues Joette left you. I found one you may like but it may be the same one. - 21:30:53 on 6 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:OOOPS! I'll try again - 21:35:09 on 6 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:-->MARLENE..I was aware of the information from the group home prior to the court case in the Latimer affair, so maybe I should have explained my position better when we talked about on the weekend. As I stated, I can relate with what they went through, but there are support services available for families with members such as Tracy. I think Robert Latimer just did not want to look like a failure, and I was more disturbed by the smugness he presented this time around, instead of the quiet, gentle farmer he appeared to be two years ago. Oh well, it's all said and done now, and gives each of us food for thought. - 21:53:04 on 6 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:-->ROB..that was Jerry Lee Lewis who did "Great Balls of Fire". Before your time, and fortunately, before mine too! - 21:55:14 on 6 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:ROB- Fortunely before my time too! JOETTE- Maybe it's not over with. Seems his lawyer wants another trial. - 22:10:14 on 6 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:JOETTE: I was referring to the cover version by our friend from Down Under (I think the girls nicknamed him "little"). I suppose we shouldn't leave out Kula Quaker, and his rendition of Morrissey's "Satan Rejected My Soul" - 22:17:40 on 6 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:-->MARLENE...that is a good site, except it gave me pause to read our 1982 Constitution, so now I am pissed off. Our Charter of Rights and Freedoms begins: Whereas Canada is founded upon the principles that recognize the supremacy of God and the rule of the law: blah blah blah. And then under our Fundamental Rights and Freedoms it states: (a) freedom of conscience and religion. Well, if our constitution is founded on the supremacy of "God", how can any other faction be guaranteed freedom for their own religion. I will be visiting my M.P. with constitution in hand tomorrow (trouble is, as soon as they see me come in the door, they go "Oh no, not her again!" - 23:11:37 on 6 Nov 97 GMT

Joette, lusting in her heart:-->MARLENE..doesn't his lawyer have great hair? - 23:13:44 on 6 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:-->ROB..your little Richard joke was so clever it went over this pinhead of mine! - 23:15:29 on 6 Nov 97 GMT

Carl:JOETTE: awhile back, when the world beloved Di departed to her maker, it seems that it was w/MARLENE that I queried of the Canadian royal connection, of which as I've read of such connections, it was that these arrangements are always devinely decreed. Only then may those of royal significance say they that get 'authority' from a god. Otherwise they- royalty, got no bee's-wax claiming authority over anybody,i.e., other humans. That is what born-again types want, as far as i can tell anyhows. Of such an affair I must say, one must be one sorry individual that needs that kinds order and puh-leese, don't count me in as part of that pile o'cow manure. - 23:29:52 on 6 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:-->CARL..that's how I feel too, and so that is why I now have to take my cause to Parliament Hill. The problem with our constitution is that that first line is just a bunch of bullshit. I don't think the authors of it really realize the social and legal implications that such a simple line can breed. Although our royal connection is still great, I do not think that connection has anything to do with the way that bit of paternization is thrown in. - 23:41:21 on 6 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene..my country should be godless!:JOETTE- I haven't seen his lawyer. I know that's what our damn constitution says and this is what those damn religionists bring up whenever something like prayer in school is challenged! - 23:56:31 on 6 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:-->CARL/MARLENE..that line I said "they must not realize the implications etc" is really stupid on second read. Of course they would know the implications, but I really think they just stuck it there because in Canada, who the hell reads the constitution anyway? IMO, we Canadians are so politically complacent that if our M.P.'s had us on the ground kicking the crap out of us, we would say, "Harder, harder!" No offense Marlene. The tiny minority of us do not have that attitude, but it is pervasive. - 1:01:52 on 7 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:-->MARLENE..girl talk...if you like waist long, curly blond hair on a man (which I do), you HAVE to see him! - 1:03:46 on 7 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:JOETTE: Don't worry- I don't think Dick Spotted it either... Gee you Golden girls are getting frisky tonight. Curly blond waist-length hair on a man? Please god NO! I bet you go for the Jesus of Nazareth type, don't you Joette? Two sandals and a miracle and I bet you're anybody's. - 1:29:57 on 7 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:NEL: If you're watching, you can look at previous posts by clicking on add, then changing the new address's "Show=30" to show=higher number. Get the drift? - 2:09:11 on 7 Nov 97 GMT

Joette :-->ROB..fuck off. I have two decades before I am considered a golden girl! - 2:58:42 on 7 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:-->NEL..if you are watching, see what respect Rob gets when he hits a nerve? - 3:01:16 on 7 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:JOETTE: Yee-hah! Actually I was referring to your preference for hair colour. BTW, I don't think Nel's mum let her come visit this den of atheists, so ignore that one. - 3:03:55 on 7 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:JOETTE: I was right about you going for the Jesus type- all I had to do was make you a little "cross" LOLOL. Come on baby, where did those nail marks come from then? Gee I'd sure love to stay around to see the flak I get for this posting, but I'm afraid I need my beauty sleep. - 3:11:33 on 7 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:-->ROB..well then, you'd better check your mail! - 3:19:47 on 7 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:Joette: Check yours! - 3:22:13 on 7 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:JOETTE: Come on, where are you? Arthritus slowing your typing down is it? Oooh I can be an evil bastard >:) Or are you busy cleaning your dentures! Oh alright, I'm only kidding. God, if I'm as juvenile as you even when I'm 30 I'll know I am doing things right. Eternal youth is alive and well and she's posting on Man Is Man-Made! - 3:37:16 on 7 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:Joette: Goodnight sweetheart (gag ;O ). I'll leave you in peace now, as I go face another few hours of manic insomnia. - 3:41:20 on 7 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:--->ROB...I hope you have a nursemaid to change your diapers! - 3:46:35 on 7 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:JOETTE: Waaaaa! Well I was hoping you could be my "nanny". God, am I still up? Past this little brat's bedtime! - 3:51:14 on 7 Nov 97 GMT

Joette (boring!):-->GEE ROB...you posts certainly don't reflect it. - 3:58:00 on 7 Nov 97 GMT

RON...--->ALL...:I'm safe and sound in my new home...I've rented two rooms from a co-worker friend and last night I slept like a rock. I'm doing the best I can and my life may come together soon. Susan and I actually spoke a few words to each other. Wonders never end. My son seems to like my house-mate's daughter and we all are getting along fine. I still ache for the warmth of a woman and the love of another soul. I'll find love again. I know I will....when Nature feels it's right for me. AMEN...(smirk)... - 4:05:00 on 7 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:JOETTE: Oh now come on, it takes two to tango. What do you want to talk about then? I'm afraid I am a little low on ideas at the moment, as my mind is elsewhere (no smart-arse quips here, before you even think of it). Boy do I feel sinister tonight. - 4:05:25 on 7 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:-->RON..that was quick! I hope it works out well for you. - 4:12:26 on 7 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- Believe it or not, I use to date a guy real long wavy red hair. He actually did look like the pictures of jesus so everyone called him creepin' jesus. Of course he was far from being xtian or I wouldn't have dated him. The only thing he had against him was his drinking problem and his name, Archie! I love long hair, sure can tell I'm for the hippie era. Poor Jim is bald except for a fringe which he wears about shoulder length. I know one guy I am in lust for and that's the Native guy on the advertisement for that Native music Tape/CD/4track(yuck).- - 4:22:55 on 7 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:RON- Good news! Things will work out, they always do. It's good to hear Ian has someone to play with. He'll want to go to dad's all the time, not because of parents because they are always accessible but because now he has a new FRIEND! - 4:25:59 on 7 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:ROB- You teeny-boppers can make fun of us old ladies all you want but I can honestly say that life just keeps getting better. Well I better go have my tea and fruitcake then get to bed. I've got a shuffleboard tourn tomorrow afternoon at the local seniors club! - 4:29:02 on 7 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- I agree, most Canadians would say shit if their mouth was full of it. All they say is "oh well, what can we do?". We have very little control over our government here. Remember ole Horseface Brian! - 4:31:43 on 7 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- That should have been wouldn't! - 4:33:31 on 7 Nov 97 GMT

Roshambo:Grant: OPEN-- Since the xtians have been kind enough to come here and point out the foolishness of relying on mere reason to attempt to figure out life, the universe, and everything, (sorry D. Adams) I have tirelessly spent the last 20 minutes or so surfing for the one true religion. Just when I thought it was a lost cause, bingo- Roshambo. I can tell you, I KNOW FOR A FACT THAT THIS IS THE TRUE RELIGION! If personal testimonials in ALL CAPS are not enough for you I shall return every day and insult you while refusing to acknowledge any of your questions until you see the light. I do this because I love you... (various names may appear here.) Amen. - 5:22:37 on 7 Nov 97 GMT

Nel:Rob.... Are you still here? - 5:32:28 on 7 Nov 97 GMT

Nel:Rob..... I have an "add" button, but it simply cycles through to more postings..... I can't see how I can change anything? - 5:36:45 on 7 Nov 97 GMT

Grant:Hello NEL. Rob went to bed, but after you push the add button the URL in your address box changes. Where it says show=30 you can change the 30 to a higher number to see older postings. On my browser I have to push 'enter'. You might try 100. - 5:44:32 on 7 Nov 97 GMT

RICHARD:MARLENE, YOUR COUNTRY IS GODLESS !! - 6:59:40 on 7 Nov 97 GMT

RICHARD:I DECLARE THAT JESUS HAS SAVED ME FROM ETERNAL TORMENT; HE WASHED MY SIN AND I LOVE HIM SO MUCH, FOR HE THAT HAS BEEN FORGIVEN MUCH LOVES MUCH. AND GOD LOVES YOU ALL TOO. AND I SHALL BE PRAYING FOR YOU ALL WHO OPPOSE YOURSELVES THAT GOD OPEN YOUR HEARTS TO HEAR AND RECEIVE THE GOOD NEWS OF CHRIST JESUS; WHO IS ABLE TO SAVE YOUR SOULS AND KEEP YOU FOREVERMORE IN GOD'S LOVE. FOR NOTHING CAN SEPERATE THOSE WHO HAVE BELIEVED ON JESUS FROM THE LOVE OF GOD; NOT EVEN DEATH. SO COME TODAY AND TASTE AND SEE THAT THE LORD IS GOOD, LIKE HONEY FOUND IN THE CLEFT OF THE ROCK! LAY ASIDE ALL YOUR CARES AND COME TO JESUS, FOR HE SAID 'COME TO ME ALL YOU WHO LABOUR AND ARE HEAVEY LADEN AND YOU SHALL FIND REST UNTO YOUR SOULS' IT'S TRUE ALRIGHT I TESTIFY TO THAT. JESUS SAVES TO THE UTTERMOST THOSE THAT COME TO HIM NO MATTER WHAT YOU HAVE DONE; HE IS EVER FAITHFUL, MAN IS NOT ALWAYS FAITHFUL AS IS SHOWN BY THE MANY MARRIAGE BREAK UPS, BUT GOD IS EVER FAITHFUL AND WILL NEVER LEAVE YOU NOR FORSAKE YOU ! IS YOUR LIFE BROKEN, TORN APART BY GRIEF ? GOD CAN PUT YOUR LIFE TOGETHER AGAIN AND GIVE YOU MORE THEN YOU HAD BEFORE, ( I DO NOT MEAN MONEY ) BUT INWARDLY YOU SHALL HAVE PEACE. GOD CAN TAKE AWAY THE YEARS OF THE CANKER WORM AND GIVE ABUNDANT BLESSINGS AND FRUIT THAT IS GOOD AND CLEAN. I TESTIFY THAT I HAVE WALKED WITH JESUS FOR THESE 26 YEARS AND HE HAS NEVER DONE ME WRONG, MANY TIMES I STUMBLED BUT JESUS HELD ME FROM FALLING HEADLONG; AND I LOVE GOD MORE EACH PASSING DAY ! YES IT IS TRUE AND I WANT YOU ALL TO KNOW THE SAME LOVE AS SPOKEN OF IN JOHN 3:16. I'M NOT RELIGIOUS IN THE SENSE OF HOW THE CHURCH APPEARS AS A SET OF RULES, THAT'S NOT JESUS, IT IS BEING MADE ALIVE INSIDE AND SET FREE FROM ALL THOSE THINGS THAT SO EASILY BESET US, IT IS TO KNOW THE FORGIVENES OF SINS, TO KNOW THE REALITY THAT JESUS IS ALIVE FROM THE DEAD AND HAS GIVEN ME OF THAT SAME SPIRIT THAT RAISED HIM FROM THE DEAD ! IT IS ALL THIS AND MORE. IT IS WAITING FOR JESUS TO COME AGAIN, IT IS FAITH, IT IS A SURE AND CERTAIN HOPE OF THE RESURRECTION, MY MIND IS SET ON THINGS IN HEAVEN. SURE I'M SEEN AS A 'RATBAG' AN 'IDIOT' BUT I AM NOT, I HAVE BELIEVED ON JSESUS AS LORD AND SAVIOUR AND FOUND THAT IT IS TRUE; AND NO ONE CAN DISUADE ME FROM THE TRUTH ! IT IS NOT WRITEN WORDS IN THE SCRIPTURE, BUT RATHER THE SCRIPTURE WRITTEN INSIDE ME, ON MY HEART BY THE FINGER OF GOD. IT IS THE ABIDING PRESENCE OF JESUS WITH ME BY THE HOLY SPIRIT; IT IS LIFE !! ETERNAL LIFE NOW!! AND I DESIRE THAT YOU KNOW THAT ALSO IN YOUR LIVES, THAT'S ALL, IN JESUS' NAME AMEN AND AMEN. READ THE GOSPEL OF JOHN PLEASE. - 7:24:40 on 7 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:-->RICHARD..the only eternal torment I know is you. Now, if I declare I believe in you god, will you go away? - 12:33:48 on 7 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:RICHARD: I hope with all my heart there will come a day when you realise that all you believe in is a false security, and come that day, I will be waiting here to offer you the hand of friendship. I'm afraid there's no eternal salvation though. I'm not patronising you here, I'm just trying to let you know that us atheists don't reject christianity because we're evil, or are possesed by the devil, but because we genuinely see it to be a man-made comfort blanket. I can honestly say on my death bed I shall not be regretting a single thing. - 13:23:38 on 7 Nov 97 GMT

RON...--->Richard...:Please realize the reason we fear most (if not all) xtians is because you sound much like Hitler in the early 1930's. No one needs religion stuffed down their throats. Imagine a world where we all had the opportunity to make up our own minds...imagine a world where we all lived in peace. These worlds could only come about by two major events happening: 1) All religions vanished, and 2) We had a major religion war and only one religion came out on top. If humankind would only accept the *here and now* and realize where we came from has no real importance on tomorrow, the world would be a safer place. Hug a stranger and you'll make today brighter. Be kind and loving to your children and you'll guarantee a brighter tomorrow. Learn to love the one who loves you and you'll live in peace, forever. All without FOG or religion. Life is pain unless you make happiness happen. Words to live by.... - 13:33:52 on 7 Nov 97 GMT

RON...--->ALL...: I've changed laptops again and have loaded yet another O.S. on my work desktop. My emails and posts will be spotted at times. If you all would email me again so I can find your addresses,...I'm walker@flex.net. I'll give my buddies here my work email address upon notification.....peace. I still love my wife, and I continue to seek counseling for my pain. Still praying for strength, knowledge, and courage. I hope Nature answers my prayers. - 13:38:41 on 7 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:-->RON..such a nice post to start the day with! However, we would not want religion to come out on top. We would want that all religions vanished, period. - 14:08:23 on 7 Nov 97 GMT

QUAKE:RON..we are not stuffing it down your throats any more than you stuff your unbelief and atheism down ours, everything you say comes from your view, so when you speak at all you are actually stuffing something down our throats , we can't help but speak the things which we have seen and heard< Besides jesus commanded His disciples to preach the gospel to every creature, if you had the cure to all the worlds sickness, would you keep it to yourself or would you go and tell others and cry out to all. - 14:50:57 on 7 Nov 97 GMT

QUAKE:RON..you do reject Christianity because you are in an evil heart of unbelif.. Besides what is evil to you, again if there is no God as you think, then there is really no ultimate standard of belief, and no morals really, no standard to measure them by, so anything goes, so where do you get your Idea of evil. I believe you know this because of the natural law that all have that God gives to show us our sin and need of help from Him..your words condmn you again, and yes you are evil..sad to say - 14:53:46 on 7 Nov 97 GMT

Nel:. - 14:55:18 on 7 Nov 97 GMT

Nel:QUAKE....... Are you a Christian person? - 14:56:46 on 7 Nov 97 GMT

Grant:ALL-- I find this quote to be calming: "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." - 15:02:44 on 7 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:Nel: Hi again! Glad you came. Yes Quake is a christian person, as is Richard. They came from christian theo chat long ago, and were given a fair hearing, but refused to answer questions, or justify their claims, so now they get a pretty cold response. What about you? Do you have a "belief"? - 15:06:04 on 7 Nov 97 GMT

Nel:Rob..... I am glad to meet up with you again. Thanks for telling me about this site.... No, I have no religious beliefs whatsoever, and can never see myself being trapped in any religion. I guess I am what my dad is!....... It was sure fun last night, but my mom was not to happy!..... - 15:08:40 on 7 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:Nel: That's funny- my mum's a christian and my dad's an atheist too! Tell her you're doing a case study on the evil ones ;) - 15:11:03 on 7 Nov 97 GMT

Nel:~~ Rob.... My mum is not religious at all, but she doesn't make a big deal about it like my dad does....... He gets into trouble with the Deans of the school because he confronts Christians head-on, and is always fighting with the Christ Crusaders, or something like that!..... Makes my mom worried that he might be fired for not being a Christian...... - 15:15:38 on 7 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:QUAKE: Don't be a wally. By your argument about "moral laws", then we could just as easily prove the existence of fairies at the bottom of the garden (otherwise "where do we get our idea of fairies from?"). Think before you type Quake. - 15:16:43 on 7 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:Nel: I see. We don't really have those kind of problems here in England- fundamentalism is pretty much seen for what it is. - 15:19:09 on 7 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:NEL- Welcome! ALL- Hard to believe the blatant anality of these theist posters. Wonders of wonders one did have something intelligent to say. He said my country IS godless. - 15:25:44 on 7 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:GRANT: Thanks for that quote. I'll bear it in mind. NEL: Shouldn't you be at school? BTW, what do you want to do when you leave? - 15:26:53 on 7 Nov 97 GMT

Nel:Rob...... Have to leave for school in 10 minutes........ It is 7:22 here in Seattle, Washington - 15:31:29 on 7 Nov 97 GMT

Nel:Rob..... did you ask me a question? - 15:32:38 on 7 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:NEL: Well my e-mail address is "univ0582@sable.ox.ac.uk" if you want to mail me, otherwise I'll see you around. - 15:33:07 on 7 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:Nel: Yes, what do you want to do when you leave school? - 15:34:02 on 7 Nov 97 GMT

Adam RARE MOURNING APPEARANCE:Hey, gang, I'm back from my gramma'a funeral, and with the pace of things expected to be light today, I'm likely to be on & off the page all day! What a treat for page denizens! Hey, Jo, how 'bout that realignment? Word is that the Jays will hire Davey. I'm sure they're spekalatin' bout that up dere, sure. - 15:34:19 on 7 Nov 97 GMT

Carl:NEL?: It is always good to see a new name. I see your matriarch holds a intuitive fear of these mystics in positions of authority. They- mystics, are a woefully ignorant lot always asserting of things written on their "hearts" and such, such talk is so medieval, but that just so happens to be when religionist pretty much had their way. Remember how to these folks this world was the center o'the universe? So that is where these folks must wanta'be again, dispite the history of such times and other matters as they are today, they still seem to want other to just close their eyes to all and pray, what nonsense. - 15:35:37 on 7 Nov 97 GMT

Nel:Rob....... Well, I would like to study some philosophy next year, because of my dad, but I am most attracted to physics. But it can be hard field for women to get into..... - 15:37:51 on 7 Nov 97 GMT

Adam METEOR, RIGHT?:I am convinced that a celestial body named "Absent" has collided with Richard's mind. I think that was foretold in the book of Nebulations. Or was that Aneurisms? - 15:39:05 on 7 Nov 97 GMT

Nel:My counselor says that physics is not the best thing for women to get into, but It is my best area of interest - 15:39:11 on 7 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:NEL: That's funny- I'm doing a degree in physics and philosophy. Don't be put off on the grounds of gender. If you've got the goods, then no one's going to stop you. - 15:39:45 on 7 Nov 97 GMT

Nel:Carl...... Yes, I often think of Galileo and the Catholic church!.... - 15:41:18 on 7 Nov 97 GMT

Nel:Carl...... Yes, I often think of Galileo and the Catholic church!.... - 15:41:22 on 7 Nov 97 GMT

Nel:Carl..... Yes, I often think of Galileo and the Catholic Church - 15:42:07 on 7 Nov 97 GMT

Adam PHYSI-FEMINIST:Newtonian Nell: I would think that the opportunities for women in physics would be expanded by the fact that few women have tended to pursue that field en force. - 15:43:13 on 7 Nov 97 GMT

Nel:Rob..... REALLY?...... that is fantastic!... how coincidental........ sorry about the multi posts.... I don't know what happened...... - 15:43:25 on 7 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:-->ADAM..it's nice to see you during daylight! Sorry about your loss...About Davey, hmmm, if they hire that prick, I shall become a Yankees fan! - 15:45:39 on 7 Nov 97 GMT

Nel:Rob..... Mum says that it is 3:30 in England, and my dad made me practically memorize Jostein Gaarder's "Sophie's World" - a novel about the history of philosophy...... have you heard of the book?.... I have it in German and English and try to read both!..... - 15:46:17 on 7 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:Nel:Don't worry- we've all done that before. Besides, it all helps to shunt Quakes posts off the screen. If you like physics, then really there is no-one in the physics field that will stop you. There are lots of succesful female physicists here, and they are actively being promoted within the university. - 15:46:45 on 7 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:-->Since I refuse to believe he exists..will someone mention to the Quakemeister that we aren't stuffing anything down his throats. He came here of his own volition, and if he can't stand the heat, he should get out of Hell's kitchen. - 15:47:29 on 7 Nov 97 GMT

Nel:Got to go to school NOW...... See you Rob and other friends........ - 15:49:01 on 7 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:NEL: Well mum's a clever bunny! I have heard of Sophie's World, but I haven't read it. It's kind of a popularisation of philosophy as I understand it. Good luck with the German- I hated it! I only liked French, but then my last girlfriend was German - 15:50:16 on 7 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:Joette: lol! Actually, I would gladly stuff his King James down his throat, but I think it would need something bigger to fill the hole.. - 15:52:30 on 7 Nov 97 GMT

Bill..:JOETTE, Albeit your naked honesty and passion, concerning Rand, excites me on a one-on-one human emotional level (love that fire in your spirit); I still do not quite agree, from a rational logical level, that I have to be an authority here in order to have a legitimate opinion concerning Rand's philosophy. She is not sacrosanct to me, but rather another person to listen to, and hopefully add some clarity to the puzzles in life. I would like to make two points: 1- Concerning some recent posts here on altruism, self-esteem, and egoism, I can honestly say that I agree with Rand, to some degree, on the "self-interest" part. Survival, which encompasses "fear of loss" and "hope of gain," is determined by nature and motivates us humans. These self-interests, however, can never be at the expense of others, because "what comes around, goes around", as they say, and these types of self-interests (that hurt or take advantage of others) are not in your "long-term" self-interest. That's why we have a conscience and I always say to practice 'win-win' or 'reciprocity' in any dealings with others, whether it's a business situation or just a simple conversation. If this principle is violated, it's never in your long-term self-interest; you will ultimately pay a price for your actions. And, as Peter indicated, in order to respect others, we have to first respect ourselves. We can't possibly do any real good for others until we first clean up our own act. 2- You also mentioned my use of the phrase, "cosmic intelligence." Yes, I have used this phrase in the past, but that was yesterday and I do not use this phrase today because the word "intelligence" is too closely associated with human consciousness. Since I claim no label for myself and follow no one but my own logic, I reserve the right to change at a moment's notice. My current perception is CMED (Cosmic 'scope,' Micro-evolutionary 'process,' Determinism 'resoluteness of nature'). This does not imply a human-like deity consciousness. Do you have a problem with CMED? Come on Joe-Joe; Let me have it! - 16:02:35 on 7 Nov 97 GMT

Adam DON'T BE A JO-HNSON!:Are you nuckin' futs?! He's won everywhere he's gone! - 16:05:37 on 7 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:--ADAM...do I need to remind you who won the AL championship??? It wasn't that ugly, pockmarked faced wimp! (sorry if I am describing anyone here, it's not intentional LOL!) - 16:44:18 on 7 Nov 97 GMT

PETER:--BILL--But Rand is against ANY form of sacrifice--whether it is sacrificing oneself to others, or sacrificing others for oneself--so where do you agree with her "to some point"--which implies you do not to some point. All she espouses is voluntary and mutual trade. The "selfish" part only refers to the concept that a person can only think for himself--and nobody else--and that each person is an end unto himself. - 17:13:36 on 7 Nov 97 GMT

Carl:BILL: I've noted how it seems, since I've played at this sand box, that you regularly refer to comic intelligence or once it was universal knowledge or some such, well I have many times meant to ask where you may have seen this? I have seen a similar idea that the author called "conceptual values" and that this was a singular factor of evolution which began the notion of natural selection. That factor was described as innate to the utmost rudiments of things that are "active"- in any way, be it electromagnitism, the chemicals and even broken down to the micro of micro worlds of those things. It looks as though that is the notion you bounce about, - 17:20:55 on 7 Nov 97 GMT

Carl:PETER: While roaming those bookstore aisles the other day I saw a Rand book on "Capitalism" ever read it or heard it spoken of? - 17:23:41 on 7 Nov 97 GMT

Carl:ANY: how about this as place to ponder things. - 17:50:27 on 7 Nov 97 GMT

Bill..:PETER, I agree totally with what you say so far! Since I am not an authority on Rand, I tend to be a little conservative and hence I used the words, "to some degree." There may be some areas that I might take exception to, but I don't now know what they are. - 18:46:53 on 7 Nov 97 GMT

Bill..:CARL, Hopefully I will in the future try to be clearer in what I am talking about for everyone's sake. My view of reality tends to evolve with time and I'm not sure exactly what tomorrow will bring. I feel secure enough though that I don't have to "know" everything now (or adopt a label) and subsequently expect others to follow. As far as cosmic intelligence goes, I have heard Peter (albeit alone time ago) and others here make statements using these words or similar words. Most physicists just simply refer to the universe in terms of the Laws of Nature. I'm not hung up on terminology, just clarity and understanding of these words and nature. Yes, I do think there is an underlying part of our rudimentary brain that is tied to and apart of all nature and beyond all fears. After all everything is made up of the same micro energy particles and nothing is a closed system, as our rational minds might like to simplify to or define and label. The feelings of peace and love seem to be ubiquitous on this level, if we knew how to properly experience and interact with our basic nature or self (meditation---stopping/limiting all rational thoughts---seems to work best for me). Whatever awareness/feelings we have left may be that of our basic self. Emotions and feelings are not something that can be easily rationalized on higher mind levels. I don't know if psychology or science will ever be able to quantify or qualify this part of our psyche though. OK, now I am going to get slammed here for sounding like a Buddhist, right? I got to go do some business. I'll check in later. - 18:53:30 on 7 Nov 97 GMT

Adam POCKMARKS on BOTH YOUR HOUSES:Jo: Do I need to remind YOU that the Jays SUCKED this year? DJ won with the Mets, Reds & Os. Who you gonna call? - 19:29:58 on 7 Nov 97 GMT

Adam METEORS, ASTEROIDS and COMICS:Cosmic Carl: I usually try to be the comic intelligence when I can. - 19:31:57 on 7 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- Either down his throat or up his.... - 19:34:18 on 7 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:BILL- I agree, it all sounds fairly zennish to me. - 19:35:26 on 7 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:CARL- Thank You! Great site! I'll check it out more extensively this afternoon. - 19:37:40 on 7 Nov 97 GMT

Carl:MARLENE: When I first referred the site I hadn't really looked at in depth, I like the banned book site, It seems to be wider in books than similar sites. I found it a great resource for perhaps the quack or even his bro rich. It makes me wonder how individuals as either, can jump off into such nonthinking ways. Is that action due to their fear of death or a want to live? Which do they really concern themselves with, perhaps they should say of what moves them, because their god stuff just doesn't work as an explanation for their thoughtless action. - 21:31:45 on 7 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:-->TO ALL..I did today I what I threatened yesterday. I visited my Member of Parliament's office clutching my own copy of our god loving constitution. I came away with a beautiful new copy of it, in colour, and a promise to be given the name of the agency to whom I should direct my advocating tendencies. MARLENE..I should get the information next week, so if you are interested in making history with me, I shall forward you the information. Nice thing, I wasn't laughed out of the office, and my opinions were taken quite seriously (of course, I had to buy the lunch!). - 21:41:31 on 7 Nov 97 GMT

PETER:--CARL--The Rand book you are referring to must be "Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal". It is a collection of essays, so the entire book is not written by her, but most are. I thought it was a good book, although it could be considered slightly outdated, as in pre-environmental issues specifically, but the basic arguments, I think, are agreeable to myself. It's definitely worth a check. - 21:48:09 on 7 Nov 97 GMT

Carl:JOETTE: you are a scamp for wanting to drag Canada from the loving arms of a god. The next thing we'll know is that you Canadians will have, also, a separation of church and state just as the godless country to your south side. - 21:48:11 on 7 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:-->CARL..I admit a lack of knowledge in that area of American affairs. Do you have a legitimate seperation between the two, or were you being facetious? Are you trying to usurp Adam as the comic intelligence? :o) - 21:51:52 on 7 Nov 97 GMT

Carl:JOETTE: Well, I'll have to dig up the sites that deal with and support this matter as it relates to the interpretation and consequential judicial position on the constitutions "freedom of religion" thing. At the present time, that "fuzziness" thing PETER mentioned in regards to reason, some folks would like to see the resurrection of divinity within the legislative process. But again, what do they fear or want, because they surely can't "love" a story or something written on their heart as that richard says. Maybe those folks oughta' just say, hey! i don't wanna'be dead, or, i want life forever. but heck w/that god nonsense. It may take a day or two but i'll locate the sites. - 22:12:38 on 7 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- I think the US constitution just gives freedom for to practise any religion and not freedom from. The blue fairy of the mystics minds name is all over govt documents. Yes I'd like the info although I'll be damned if I buy lunch. - 22:17:18 on 7 Nov 97 GMT

Adam SICK DEGREES of SEPARATION:Carl & Joette: On the church/state thing, Peter will recall that I put up an extensive post regarding the double-edged sword that is the freedom-of-religion segment of the First Amendment to the US Constitution when, I believe, Amie was the craquepotte-du-semaine. I can try to reprise it, or you could find it by setting the URL show tune to, like, infinity � - 22:41:14 on 7 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:--->ADAM..I remember that reading that post, but alas, do not remember much of its contents, so if you have a minute or 20, could you refresh my memory? - 22:50:41 on 7 Nov 97 GMT

Adam SEPARATION SUMMARY:"Congress [and the states via the 14th Amendment] shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..." The first part is called the "Establishment Clause," which, while most obviously directed at the founding of a State church, has been enterpreted so as to prohibit "unnecessary entanglement" of the government in religion. This has led to some amusing results, such as a prohibition of a creche scene and menorah on public property UNLESS they are accompanied by nonsense like Santa Claus and Frosty, such that the display in its entirety can be seen as a secular seasonal image rather than as a religious depiction. The "entanglement" line of case law has, thus far, kept even non-denominational official prayer out of the public schools, so the Estab. Clause certainly holds wider turf today than merely State-church establishment. This, in essence, is the "freedom from" part. The second part is the "Free Exercise" Clause, and cuts the other way, protecting religious practices from undue governmental intrusion, within limits, of course (human sacrifice definitely falls within the state police power, and there is divided case law over the extent to which otherwise unlawful drugs can be allowed as part of religious rites, as Indian religions have won some and lost some on peyote, but the Rastas have yet to win on Ganja Weed, and one judge in Florida prevented the state from stopping ritual animal mutilations by the Santoria folks). So much for short & sweet. - 22:55:51 on 7 Nov 97 GMT

Adam ASTA, BAYBEE:Well, it's been a long week, what with my Sports Law section going to print and serving as a pall bearer at Gramma's funeral. See all on Monday or Tuesday (it's not clear as to when I will take the Veteran's Day holiday, which is Tuesday, but we are encouraged in the newsroom to use Monday---I've asked for next Friday off, which would give me extra laundry-and-pack time before the Mexico trip, but I haven't heard yet). - 23:02:37 on 7 Nov 97 GMT

me:-->Thanks ADAM! - 23:02:41 on 7 Nov 97 GMT

Adam |o): Yeah, that's where I'm headed. - 23:07:01 on 7 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:ADAM- Thanks from me too. I'm not sure if you had the chance to read Steven's gastly story of his childhood. Would this also include such abuse of children in the name of god? - 23:57:04 on 7 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:ALL- Does anyone ever watch King of the Hill? Hank Hill is from Texas and there isn't a show that ole Hank doesn't mention god. They've had shows on sex education, firearms, halloween (which was just a real blast) and a number of other shows that make fun of xtian values. - 0:14:45 on 8 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:Does anyone know how much money is spent to pseudoscience. For instance ESP. There isn't one fact to support that ESP exsists and yet it's a multimillion dollar industry. How about TM? - 0:19:28 on 8 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:-->MARLENE..I've only watched it a couple of times, and I find it amusing. His references to god are pretty sacriligious don't you think? The show "South Park" has similar ideas, only is far less politically correct, and to me, is one of the funniest shows I've ever seen. Too bad you haven't had a chance to see it. - 1:18:50 on 8 Nov 97 GMT

Grant:CARL-- Thanks for the link. - 2:13:51 on 8 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- Just checking in commerial time during all my sci-fi programs. Which network carries Southpark? - 2:16:42 on 8 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:-->MARLENE..Global Network has it on at midnight, Friday nights. The only other place that it is shown that I am aware of is Comedy Central in the States, but you would have to check with Adam about when it is on that channel. If you get "Canwest" network, that is the western division of Global. If you are watching X-files right now, that would be Canwest. - 2:44:32 on 8 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:-->MARLENE..sorry, that should be Millenium, not X-Files. The truth is out there. - 2:45:57 on 8 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- I buy Primetime 24 and a few other networks but not Global. It must be somewhere on one of the transponders. Isn't Frank such a sad sack! - 4:20:50 on 8 Nov 97 GMT

RICHARD:HELLO ALL {{smile}} - 6:45:29 on 8 Nov 97 GMT

RICHARD:Of course allowing your mind to drift and become empty is just the right thing for receiving unclean spirits. All them 'higher ascended masters' and 'departed persons' who can give you information: in other words EVIL SPIRIT/S - 8:32:24 on 8 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:RICHARD: \\frown// Exactly what information have these "departed persons" given us? Fermat's last theorem? Beethoven's unfinished symphony? No, I thought not. And why? Well I think it might have something to do with the fact that claiming to be in touch with a nondescript depated peasant is much easier to explain on a delusional basis than claiming to have been given the details of Fermat's last theorem. - 10:48:34 on 8 Nov 97 GMT

Bill..:RICHARD, Good morning! I will ask the same questions of you, that I did Quake. Quake's answers were very weak BTW. 1-"Why would a 'perfect' God create an 'imperfect' world?" 2-"If God 'is' LOVE, then why does God 'need' LOVE?" 3-"In one bible verse, when someone approach Jesus calling him "Good Master," he responded by saying, "Why do you call me "Good?" There is only one Good, and that is god in heaven." Without referencing to other bible passages and preaching, please give me YOUR personal answers and interpretation of only THESE questions or bible passages! I really want to hear your response. Thanks. - 12:33:59 on 8 Nov 97 GMT

Bill..:ROB, How did your oral presentation go? - 12:43:25 on 8 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:BILL: Fine, apart from my bloody sore throat ;O. I hand-wrote it though, but the jist of it goes like this: You know that, to an outside observer, due to relativity the object falling into the black hole gets slower and slower, and is never seen to enter. Well this is it: to an outside observer the information never actually goes in. Now you may know that black holes eventually "evapourate" away their energy- well this means that the info that never quite made it in, eventually comes back out (albeit a bit scrambled!) -to the outside observer-, whereas to the object it just gets sucked into the singularity and obliterated. This actually highlights Hawking's paper of microreversibilty not applying to black holes as being wrong, as if he were right, the universe would heat up to 10^31 degrees within one second! I could go on about how this fits in with string theory, but I am feeling pretty shitty at the moment, so I'll try and give you the reference to journal the article I based the talk came from (It was in Scientific American, around June time I think). It seems as if Hawking's "sacred" attitude toward singularities are being eroded, as we find more and more about the rules that they obey. - 13:03:10 on 8 Nov 97 GMT

Bill..:ROB, Speaking of falling objects, check this sight out. Thanks for the info! Of all physicists I have read, I think I like Paul Davies the best. Hawking seems a little recondite in his writings. Didn't you attend a lecture by Davies once at Oxford? I think that I relate to Davies the most, as he holds open some mystical (Buddhists) possibilities. He doesn't seem judgmental towards eastern religions at all. Do you think that string theory will ever qualify or quantify the fabric of the universe? - 13:55:38 on 8 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:BILL: What a bizarre site! I agree Davies is a good author (his "technical" books are good too). It was Roger Penrose that I went to see though, and I didn't particularly like his talk that much. I think keeping in touch with (Eastern) religions is a purely recreational pursuit, in that it can be fun to see whose relgions were are close to the truth, or are analogous in some way, but I don't think I'd take it much further. The problem with string theory is that strings are about a factor of 10^20 smaller than protons, and to acheive the energies required to observe this, it has been calculated that you'd need a particle accelerator bigger than the current believed size of the universe. But, this doen't mean we cannot observe their effects. In fact, in the article mentioned, string theory actually predicts the characteristic frequency of Hawking radiation (much as quantum mechanics predicts the discrete frequencies of radiation coming from electrons changing energy levels). So, the future's bright! - 14:14:05 on 8 Nov 97 GMT

Bill..:This cooler weather makes me want to move farther south in Florida. Does anyone here want to meet up in the Florida Key's this winter for a weekend get-a-way? I'm sure my wife and I will need a break about February. I'll buy you a drink and then you're on your own. I promise not to talk religion or physics either, which I only do here anyway BTW. Come on Joette, bring your husband and fly down for a drink! I've never met anyone that I have ever talked to on the internet. I want to see if you people are for real. It might be fun. - 14:22:36 on 8 Nov 97 GMT

Bill..:ROB, I agree the future looks bright and knowledge is increasing exponentially. Maybe we will have a GUT before we all die that will explain the mathematics behind the operation of the universe. I wonder if Buddhism, historically, has been tied to murder and negativity, as have most other religions in the world? I'm not Buddhist BTW! I just seem to respect the Buddhist and Early American Indians' religions the most of all that there is out there. Indians saw themselves tied to nature and not above nature. - 14:31:55 on 8 Nov 97 GMT

jaywilson:BILL: Your questions to Richard reminded me of the following: 1. God is love. 2. Love is blind. 3. Ray Charles is blind. 4. Therefore, Ray Charles is God. - 14:42:59 on 8 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:BILL: There was a recent TV series by Hawking here, in which he said 19 years ago that he believed we had a 50% chance of finding a GUT in the next 20 years. With 1 year to go, he still puts the odds at 50%. I'm afraid February is term-time for me. If you think Florida's cold, you should visit Oxford in the winter- it's brass monkeys nearly everyday, but the sun does get really intense and there are some beautiful clear blue skies as compensation. I have always had a degree of respect for many of the Eastern religions too, I think due to it's valuing of wisdom. I would not like to put any form of mysticism above another though, and am talking purely from the point of view that I have personally found their doctrines to be more aesthetically pleasing than many Western religions. - 14:49:01 on 8 Nov 97 GMT

Bill..:JAYWILSON, smirk! Sounds logical to me! - 14:49:35 on 8 Nov 97 GMT

Bill..:ROB, Maybe by the year 2000, as religionist like to target as being the second coming date, the GUT will be mathematically sound and we will have some scientific and concrete revelations�. Bill's prediction, ha! I would not want to go to Oxford in the winter and have only gone there in July. You're attending one of the best colleges in the world in my opinion. I envy you. Well it's cool here but the sun is shining and maybe it will rise into the 60's as the day progresses. We will be leaving soon to view the Blue Angles Air Show at the Naval Base and then on to the Gulf Coast Arts show. Tonight we are cooking out with friends, so I will be off line till tomorrow. Enjoyed talking to you. Hopefully Richard will have some well thought-out answers for me by tomorrow! I have 'faith' he's going to do a better job than Quake! - 15:06:24 on 8 Nov 97 GMT

PETER:--ROB--By the way, it was Brahms who had the "Unfinished symphony", not Beethoven.--He finished all his symphonies --up till nine - 15:30:24 on 8 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:PETER: Oh well! Maybe he had a number ten that he might have liked to share with the world, but I guess you see my point: No pulse, no more symphonies. - 15:36:02 on 8 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:-->BILL..I would rather we all meet at Ron's in May and wait for his big event. - 16:06:32 on 8 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:PETER: Poor though my memory is, Beethoven did in fact start a tenth symphony, and indicated that he wanted to finish it 8 days before his death. And anyway, I think it was Schubert who composed the "Unfinished Symphony". This is all irrelevant though- I'm sure they'd all be composing from the grave if they had the chance, so either way Richard still has some explaining to do. - 16:11:06 on 8 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:-->TO ANY..given that Richard does not exist, and has never existed, I would like to ask this: do we get to pick and choose the departed persons spirit, or is it random? I want to be Marilyn Monroe! - 16:18:15 on 8 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:-->ROB..I'll go out on a limb and say that I bet every composer had an unfinished symphony. If that was their life, then it would make sense that they were writing something not knowing that the grim reaper was looking in their window. (it was the salmon mousse) - 16:21:05 on 8 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:JOETTE: You're probably right, it's just I wanted to make sure I wasn't going (completely) mad. The 1st movement of the 10th symphony was projected from Beethoven's numerous sketches he had made for it and was published by a member of this college in 1988, which was where I must have got it from. - 16:47:20 on 8 Nov 97 GMT

James-->Marni...:Hey girl, How�s life? You know, I have no problem with good satire even that which pokes fun at many of the hypocritical idealistic religious beliefs that exist. What I do find somewhat offending are the insults to what I consider positive moral values which also happen to be Christian. To place a value on a television program that purports such an idea is a statement in my view that brings us down a level and adds to the continuing decay of society. - 17:10:00 on 8 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:JAMES- Hey! Haven't heard from you for a long time. Now..I thought you'd love Hank Hill and Dale. He's so..so...so..you? - 17:16:43 on 8 Nov 97 GMT

James-->All:Did you folks catch the information scientist are reporting about having proof that Einstein was right about warped space and time. That new technology has given them a look the phenomena where as a mass is accelerated around a intense gravitational force (i.e. black hole) it creates an energy that warps space. I am not clear on all the details, but if you get a chance find the story. I read it in USA today one day last week while on business in San Jose Ca.. Several scientists spoke on the issue at a recent gathering. Anyway, read it. I found it really super cool. - 17:20:19 on 8 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- Then you'd be automatically drawn to those pukey Kennedy's!! Naaaaaaaa! Not Marilyn! Now Madonna...but we will have to wait till she kicks off unless in this day and age we could be clones which of course then one would not have to die, one would just have to go for a genetic makeup transplant. Ooooooo...this just makes so much sense to me now. - 17:21:24 on 8 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:-->JAMES..which came first: the morals or the christianity? If there were no morals before the advent of your religion, the human race would have become extinct at its genesis. - 17:26:28 on 8 Nov 97 GMT

PETER:--Ahhh JAMES!!good to see you back!...You should have checked in about a week ago when I began to post exerpts from George H. Smith's Book: ATHEISM: THE CASE AGAINST GOD. I was posting from the chapter entitles "Ethics, Rationality, and Ethics"--and was in the process of posting the section that deals specifically with not only can morals be divorced from religion ( specifically christianity )--but it is actually NOT POSSIBLE to define a moral code of ethics within the parameters of christianity. I could recopy them, and continue if you like--but it is kind of long. - 17:34:17 on 8 Nov 97 GMT

PETER:--JAMES--That SHOULD be " Ethics, Rationality and Religion " - 17:36:34 on 8 Nov 97 GMT

jaywilson:ROB, PETER, & JOETTE: Brahms, Schubert, and Beethoven are no longer composing but de-composing. - 18:22:28 on 8 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:Jaywilson: My point exactly. JAMES: I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "creating energy", but I thought we already had observational evidence of Relativity? Sounds interesting anyway- If you can find the link I'd be grateful. It would appear the Vatican is no longer the only place with an infinitely dense mass... - 18:43:34 on 8 Nov 97 GMT

James-->Joette:Christianity is but a microcosmic of the concept of religion. The real question is, which came first, morality or religion? Have previous ancestors of all human races had an inclination for religion? Has that influence affected our measurement of morality both on an individual level as well as a societal level? - 18:55:19 on 8 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:-->JAMES..answering a question with a question..tsk tsk tsk..you asserted that morals were Christian morals, and I is my opinion that morals were abided by long before christianity. In looking back at the cave days, do you believe that there was always religion. Would not the human species first have to assimilate their need to survive before they started pondering the greater questions of existence? - 19:19:23 on 8 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:-->jaywilson...love those posts! - 19:22:13 on 8 Nov 97 GMT

jaywilson:ROB: The Vatican is, however, the only place where the Mass is critical. - 21:03:12 on 8 Nov 97 GMT

James-->Joette...:I made no such assertion. Read it again please. "What I do find somewhat offending are the insults to what I consider positive moral values which also happen to be Christian." Clearly I've indicated that moral values preexists Christianity and that Christianity simply shares some of the things that I consider positive moral values. This in no way says that Christianity represents the birth of morality. In fact, I think my point was that several moral values have been shared by people long before Christianity was even a concept. That, that in itself represented a sense of religious unity. Perhaps assimilating their need to survive was also based on developing this moral code amongst themselves. So as to say not kill off fathers and leave children to die so as to ensure the survival of the species. Or adopting orphan children rather than letting them starve to death in the wild. So in answer to your question, I guess I am saying that one does not exist without the other for the human species. - 21:26:10 on 8 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:jaywilson: True, but in both cases the mass may be expressed in terms of Cardinal numbers. - 21:29:51 on 8 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:-->JAMES..maybe I am a dolt today, but in your last post, are you implying that morals cannot be divorced from chritianity? - 21:45:40 on 8 Nov 97 GMT

James-->Peter:Thanks for the thought. While I remain objective about all of these issues you would be hard pressed to prove to me that within the religious sect known as Christianity it is not possible to define a moral code of ethics. While I agree that a person�s code of ethics can be developed independent of religious indoctrination, I look at my own code of moral ethics as defined by many of the Christian beliefs. Points in my life where I have deviated from them have ultimately caused me grief through conscience and conviction. I may well have been able to generate this moral conscience without the benefit of religious teachings; it�s something I will never really know. I do know from my own personnel experiences in life that I could have very easily blew off any sense of what constitutes a positive moral ethic. - 21:46:55 on 8 Nov 97 GMT

James-->Joette...:No, I am saying that a sense of religious unity defined as a common set of positive moral beliefs cannot be divorced from a successful attempt to survive. Without this common thread amongst mankind we would have killed each other off centuries ago as we have tried on so many occasions. - 21:54:03 on 8 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:-->JAMES...I do not agree with you, but that's life. Morals I agree with, but religion, nope - 23:02:52 on 8 Nov 97 GMT

RON...--->JAMES...:Hey dude, I have a date tonight with Nancy. How was your trip? - 23:21:01 on 8 Nov 97 GMT

jaywilson:ROB: Are we guilty of Pontiff-ication? - 23:24:20 on 8 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:JAMES- Then is it morally wrong to combine church and state? Every time this happens people go to war over who's religion is right and it's done with the upmost morality as far as christians are concerned. - 23:45:35 on 8 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:jaywilson: Well if we are then I guess that makes us a pair of prima donnas. - 23:48:09 on 8 Nov 97 GMT

jaywilson:ROB: Fine; you be John Paul, I'll be George Ringo, and we'll quote from the Beatle-tudes, "Blessed is he who gets by with a little help from his friends." - 0:11:57 on 9 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:jaywilson: I think, like Mary after the resurrection, I'd rather wake up to the rolling stones. - 0:21:44 on 9 Nov 97 GMT

jaywilson:ROB: You forget that your namesake, Mr. Plant, suggested, "To be a rock, and _not_ to roll." To cite Mary's grave discovery only proves that you take the rolling of the aging Stones for granite. (In fact, rumor has it they would love to awaken to _any_ sort of -urrection.) A gneiss guy you may be, but I cannot abide your sediment. This may be the last time; I don't know. - 1:08:36 on 9 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:jaywilson: No need to take the Mick. Even our friend John Paul was a great fan of Polished stone, and maybe if Jesus had been a little boulder he might have realised the stones were for listening to, not turning into bread. I'm actually younger than my musical tastes might suggest- I'm actually a Smiths fan down to the c-ore. (robert.knowles@university-college.ox.ac.uk, if you think the world is not ready for us pair of Schist-ers) - 1:44:25 on 9 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:-->ROB..and have us lose out on the battle of who will become the "Comic Intelligence?" - 2:30:09 on 9 Nov 97 GMT

RICHARD:Jotte; You may deny that I exist,I do and I'm sure one of me is enough, he, he. But even though you deny my existance I leave you this message. GOD EXISTS TOO ! - 2:33:30 on 9 Nov 97 GMT

RICHARD:JOETTE; Hello, I'm here (wave, wave) I exist, he, he.... - 2:36:11 on 9 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:JOETTE: Did you hear something? - 2:38:41 on 9 Nov 97 GMT

RICHARD:Joette; You IN DENIAL? he, he, he.... those of your ilk too. - 3:10:56 on 9 Nov 97 GMT

jaywilson:ROB: I do walk that Jaggered edge, but I meant only to build a bridge to babble on. I may even have made a Pope's nose of myself, although I do it for my friends of the Cosa Nostril. To the group for whom igneous is bliss: even if the Pope Lent an ear to such rock-us tunes, I've never seen him on a Gdansk floor; then again, the castrati in the Vatican choir never Host-ed any balls, either. One thing for sure: their sympathy for the devil being well known, the unholy rollers won't write any Karols this Xmas. Alas, I am not this village's Smith-y, but let me forge ahead: As for your allowing me to look up your address, I'll respond in the words of your own Field Marshal Montgomery, who said, "Tanks". And, in closing, as Louis Braille once promised, "I'll be in touch." - 3:15:01 on 9 Nov 97 GMT

RICHARD:PETER; Oh dear , oh deary me, what will YOUR Mr. George H Smith say when he faces God ? " God would you like a copy of my book, The case against you ?" he, he, he... Will NEVER be the best seller in heaven mate !!!! - 3:59:14 on 9 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene PLUMBING PARABLES...:I would liken the ramblings of xtian basketcases unto that of a dripping fawcet. - 4:12:03 on 9 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:PETER- Although the name of the book is just a catch-phrase, the problem is that the defendant does not exsist but in the fragile minds of basket-weavers. - 4:14:58 on 9 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:JAYWILSON- Very creative! You know though that believers believe atheists have no imagination. - 4:17:03 on 9 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene..a bit too much scotch:JOETTE- You wee lass, get the ell out of danna isle! - 4:20:42 on 9 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:Goodnight and sweet dreams atheists! - 4:23:11 on 9 Nov 97 GMT

words of Jesus:"If anyone desires to come after me. :et him deny himself, and take up his cross and follow me. For whoever, desires his own life, shall loose it. But whoever, looses his life for my sake, shall have it." "Follow me" good night - 6:19:20 on 9 Nov 97 GMT

Jotobyette:-->Them's is pretty scary words massah! So, I gotta kill muself? - 9:08:47 on 9 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:jaywilson: The Catholics may not be great fans, but I'll have you know the Masons idolise the great Jagger (BTW, do those choir boys take the Eunuchrist?). I was going to quote from the book of Pebble-ations, but I think the words of Pythagoras would be more a-pope-riate: "Let he who is without Sin karst the first stone". You know I can't seem to get Rocks Off my mind today. What's say we wipe the slate clean? - 12:56:36 on 9 Nov 97 GMT

jaywilson:ROB: Good idea; although iron a good race, I can't stay on this ferrous wheel forever, as much as I may lava to talc. It matters not who has the lead. - 13:20:32 on 9 Nov 97 GMT

Bill..:Ooooh, my head hurts! I killed some brain cells yesterday, I thought %*#@. I must have had fun. JOETTE, I agree. Let's all met at Ron's place in May for a party! I'll bring the Wesson oil. JAYWILSON / ROB, You crack me up! Kinda reminds me of that female pilot, I saw yesterday, flying upside down. I think I better go get some more coffee, bye! - 13:28:33 on 9 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:jaywilson: From now on I pummice I'll try and keep to the nitty gritty, although I might just add that it does matter to the Vatican who has the lead: They were so concerned about having to inhale poisonous chemicals whilst Roamin' the streets that they had a Catholithic Converter installed ages ago. Hail (Ceasar)! M'air is clean. - 15:48:15 on 9 Nov 97 GMT

PETER:--JAMES--Ethics must be learned. Admittedly chrisianity has offered some for you, and others such as basicall keeping your "nose clean", and as you say, when you have deviated from them it has caused you grief. However, I suggest that christian ethics--because they are outlined in an ARBITRARY fashion in the Bible--they could never be a starting point to form an ADEQUATE source. Since the field of ethics is a science--the same rules apply here as they would to any pursuit of science. They findings must be based on proven, observable FACTS. Ayn Rand, when outlining her "Objectivist ethics" pointed out that religion has always assumed the role of teaching morals. The starting point , or the first question asked was:" What code of ethics should we follow" --However, she made the observation that this starting point did not go back far enough, and the first question that should be asked is: WHY does man need a code of ethics? Religion does not address this question. To demonstrate the inadequacy of religious morals is an easy task. If "God" was who he says he was--from the first day the Bible was written, such things like bigotry, slavery, treatment of women etc--would have been prohibited immmediately--as these are not moral acts. Man has beena ble to recognize these shortcomings only recently. Only a little more than a hundred years ago slavery was perfectly allowable in the US ( and still exists now in other areas of the world ), bigotry and cruel treatment of women STILL pervades rampantly--all within areas where christianity is practiced ( i.e,--southern U.S.). Not until man has DISCOVERED that the Bible is so reprehensibly immoral in so many areas did he realise that " Hey, this isn't right. We shouldn't be treating others this way". Again, I must emphasize: If the Bible was a reliable, in-depth moral guide--or the Q'uran, etc.---these problems would have been identified and wouldn't have existed for hundreds of years. It is my conclusion then, when man is to identify a course of action to guide him; its fundamental view of moral principles and their role in human existence--religious sources, by their inadequate, and arbitrary nature--must be rejected--IN ITS ENTIRETY. - 16:40:25 on 9 Nov 97 GMT

jaywilson:ROB: Caesar? Hail, no; he had his salad days, but got tossed for being such a crouton. Back to the Trinity site: Is the Pawn-tiff merely a St.Peter's Ba-silicate implant? I suspect he will not rest in the bosom of his tax-exempt landedLord; a clean breast ought to be made by, if not the clergy, then his formu-laity. These days his face looks wholly ghostly--perhaps not enough Son. Or apostate gland troubles. - 16:43:29 on 9 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:jaywilson: I think you'll find it is a diety problem- runway tarmac and wafers aren't the stuff good popedoms are made of. As the good Lourd himself once said: "Man cannot live on tread alone", so might I suggest the clergy invest in a communional food budget? Even Jesus used his loaf when it came to eating healthily, and would never dream of leaving before finishing his supper. - 17:38:52 on 9 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:Oh jay! I fear I shall be writing essays this evening, so I shall have to try you gauntlet for size sometime in the near future. Mail me a divine letter though, and I might be able to give you confirmation of a return date. - 17:52:33 on 9 Nov 97 GMT

Wanko:Hail Ayn Rand! - 21:19:14 on 9 Nov 97 GMT

you are bad! - 23:21:04 on 9 Nov 97 GMT

RICHARD:Marlene; You got it wrong again; the Bible says that the 'never ceasing tongue of the woman is like a dripping fawcet' in your case that's true enough ! - 0:13:35 on 10 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:DICKY BIRD-LOVER: Just the kind of really useful, well thought out, life-altering quote I would expect to find in a book written by god. I thank my ancestors for shipping pricks like you out of our country long ago. Just a shame they didn't ship you further... - 0:53:07 on 10 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:-->RICHARD..would that be Farrah Fawcett? She was an "Angel" wasn't she? - 0:54:32 on 10 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:-->RICHARD..I forgot "he he he he" to my last post - 0:59:19 on 10 Nov 97 GMT

PapaSam:As an elder statesman - well,anyway an elder(82) I have good news and bad news. The good news is that I have enjoyed the back and forth witticisms and word play by obviously bright young minds. It would give me great hope for the future except for the bad news, which is probably not really news to you. It comes from a story I read over fifty years ago by a female author. Sadly,I do not remember her name or the title of the book. In one of the stories a frustrated young man blurts out, "you know, there just aren't enough smart people to go around."PapaSam@webtv.net - 1:52:35 on 10 Nov 97 GMT

George:RELIGION IS A WIDESPREAD FORM OF MENTAL ILLNESS. A MYTH IS A RELIGION NO ONE BELIEVES IN ANYMORE. EVOLUTION CREATED PEOPLE.....PEOPLE CREATED GODS. - 2:29:40 on 10 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:-->PapaSam..thanks for coming back. Your Atheist Prayer has been sent out to most of the regulars here and we thank you for your contribution. Your quote is still very true, to our chagrin. - 2:47:21 on 10 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:--?GEORGE..there aren't too many here that would disagree with you, but hey, no need to shout about it! - 2:50:07 on 10 Nov 97 GMT

Grant:Hello PAPA-SAM. I liked your Atheist Prayer. Are you a lifelong atheist? -- Welcome GEORGE. - 4:58:48 on 10 Nov 97 GMT

RICHARD:JOETTE; I USE YOUR WORD 'FAWCET' BECAUSE AMERICANS CANNOT SAY 'TAP' HE, HE... - 5:06:37 on 10 Nov 97 GMT

Grant:RICHARD--Joette and Marlene are both Canadians, you childish allcaps nit. - 5:24:40 on 10 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene-:GRANT- What would be really scary is that the dicky-boid from down under could be some kind of relative, yikes! My mom's family came from England. Imagine who this guys ancestors were! If sent to Australia from England then they'd likely be convicts. Imagine how pround ole granpappy would be to know he was responsible for a woose ass like dicky! - 6:15:20 on 10 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:HI GEORGE and welcome. I couldn't agree more! WWLCOME BACK! PAPASAM! - 6:17:25 on 10 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:GEORGE- I think you'll notice that not EVERYONE knows it's a myth. It's sad to see someone so young so delusioned(dicky boid). - 6:21:35 on 10 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:PETER- Such a good argument for James but I'm afraid he's hit this place a run again. He should be back for mythmas wishes though. Damn cold here, -12! - 6:25:24 on 10 Nov 97 GMT

TWEETY BOID:JOETTE- Did you thee a dicky boid? I don't even hear a dicky boid. Iths hunting theeson thith Monday! - 6:33:38 on 10 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:ROB- More physicths pleasth! - 6:36:29 on 10 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:ALL- It's the season to start making up some mythmas carrols. Just so's the xtians feel ta home... - 6:38:10 on 10 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:RELIGION NEWS for the day. Experts(yuck) have found the place where Mary rested. What did she leave a message, Mary was here? There is no proof that jc even exsisted. How can someone claim where his mother rested! - 6:40:55 on 10 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene getting in the mythmas spirit:Bark, the 101 dalmations sing, Glory to their Shepard king. Roast of beef and piece of lamb, fourty boids and a nice big ham. Bark the 101 dalmations sing, Glory to the Shepard King! - 6:48:35 on 10 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:Good night atheists! - 6:50:44 on 10 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:MARLENE: Spot the 101 spelling mistakes? Of course Mary rested inn the Virgin Megastore- she would often go there to chill out when she was feeling a little maudlin - 11:49:50 on 10 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:-->MARLENE..how about "Mark!" The Harlip Angles Sing? We have just had our "Inidan Summer" so it was a beautiful weekend. Tomorrow they are calling for snow squalls...time to hunker down...yuck! - 12:00:57 on 10 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:-->MARLENE..I think you can spot the 101 spelling mistakes just in my last post. I think I should wake up before I start posting! zzzzzzz - 12:02:51 on 10 Nov 97 GMT

TO PAPASAM...:Visited your site. Too much flashing advertising hype. Could'nt get to where I could send you an Email. All so hideiously boring....... - 12:31:42 on 10 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:PAPASAM: I liked your poem very much- I'll try and mail you with comments when I am less busy. I wish more people would experiment with creative writing, as it is very theraputic. Maybe I should lay down a challenge to all you atheists: Come and have a go if you think you're Bard enough, and that doesn't mean we want big drips like Richard plagiarising verse from his anthology... - 12:59:49 on 10 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:PAPASAM: Wow- an atheist octogenarian! C'Mon signor citizens- throw away those religious crutches and let Papa See there are still plenty of bright minds on this planet. ANONYMOUS POSTER: No need to be rood to Papasam- in the absence of Riches some must find alternative ways to support their cites. - 13:48:26 on 10 Nov 97 GMT

QUAKE:To ALL..here is another thought.. Universal hunger, as evidence for God's truth and existiance. I f a person has a hunger for food that is because there is the food to satisfy the hunger and to fill the emptiness, that hunger would not be there if there was no food to satisfy it. Although there are many kinds of foods to satisfy it, the hunger is still evident. Likewise if we have a hunger to know the meaning of life , the answer must be ther, and if we hunger to know God and to approach Him, then the hunger would not be there if there was no satisfaction. Many can testify the truth of this because they have Been found of God and He has filled thier hearts, or spirits with life and satisfaction. The bible talks of this and tells us that in the garden Adam and eve died in thier spiritual realationship to God and that they then became empty inside and a need for satisfaction followed. Unfortunately man people try to fill this emtiness in thier life with false things and they can never do it, just Go ask the billionare if he is satisfied with his billions, no is usually the answer. They still will seek for satisfaction of the emtiness they feel. Yet ask a poor person who knows Christ if they are satisfied and they will say they are content in Christ, and are much richer than all the rich people without Christ.. These facts face us every day. What thing are you running after to fill the emtiness in your life.. It can easily become an Idol, but only God can fill that emtiness and hunger that all feel. The fact that men have such a desire to fill shows us some more hidden realities withinn ourself, and that they have the hunger to know God, so there Must be a God to satisfy them. - 14:11:23 on 10 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- Snow storms, how wonderful! We've just finished our third. Yup! I like the Mark carrol. ROB- I don't care about spelling mistakes, ya know what I'm sayin? - 14:31:59 on 10 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene..a little more mythmas music:Oh! Little Town of Toronto town, how still we see thee lie, above they steep and slippery streets the noisy planes do fly, but in thy dark streets lurketh, the xtian Quake himself. The neurotic fears of all his years, it's a wonder he's not in Guelph. - 14:46:32 on 10 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:STEVE and PETER- You up yet? - 14:48:07 on 10 Nov 97 GMT

PETER:--MARLENE--Did you know God exists because we get hungry? I haven't laughed this much since the "Frasier" episode when he gave a speech at a catholic gathering when the bishop was "lost out at sea". - 15:12:04 on 10 Nov 97 GMT

Quake:TO ALL..I know that some will say that my argument for universal hunger fails because some wmigh say, what if i have a desire for Santa Clause, does that make him real. Well if you look at it closer what is your desuire for, that desire you may be trying to fill with a mistaken notion of Sanat Clause, but in reality Christ is more tham Sanat Clause and can fill your heart more. So the fact that you would havre a desire to seek a Santa Clause to satisfy your heart shows that there is still a desire there but you just misplaced the solution.. By the way many may call God different names but in reality it is God they seek - 15:17:39 on 10 Nov 97 GMT

QUAKE:Peter..I was just using hunger as an example of the desire being there so there must be somtihing to fulfil the desire, just like men have the desire for God so the substance (God ) must be there. or something to satisfy that desire and inner craving for truth, why would that be there if there was no reality to satisfy it? And by the way God deosn't exist because we get hungry , as you said in your last mocking post, but but we hunger because God exist!! - 15:20:22 on 10 Nov 97 GMT

QUAKE:Peter....a word that means a pebble or little stone...don't try to build your house on a little stone but On Christ the solid rock.. your defence of your position must be thought out more and you must consider that God has tried to reach you in many ways. How do you explain the millions that have come to know Christ and believe and have changed lives? - 15:22:13 on 10 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:PETER- Even little Bart Simpson knows that god isn't to thank for his food. I think he said "Thanks Homer". I really should watch Frasier more often. I missed that episode. - 15:23:04 on 10 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:PETER_PEBBLE- I just bet your charmed with that one! - 15:26:33 on 10 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:MARLENE: Neither do I, it's just I couldn't miss out on that "Spot" pun. QUAKE: So if there's no hunger without food, does that also infer that Santa Claus exists, as my nieces are all hoping for him to visit this mythmas? If we hunger to know how to conclusively disprove the existence of a deity, does that mean the proof is there for the finding? And why isn't your god an idol to fill the emptiness? If hunger means god then I'm going on a deity diet (Yaweht watchers, mon). - 15:26:39 on 10 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:QUAKE: So you are saying we shouldn't Santa between Messiahs? Besides, I only want Santa to fill my stocking, not my 'hole. He could get sent to Nick for trying to do that. - 15:32:19 on 10 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene...4Santa:ROB- Must be the cold slowing down the metabolism! I like the Santa aspect of mythmas. I say we throw out jee-zus and just keep Santa and his elves and reindeer. As you say, he's not a pervert, he only fills stockings. - 15:41:41 on 10 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:MARLENE: Yes, but then he does do that by coming down the chimney. I agree we should sleigh jee-zus though, as he hasn't even managed a second coming yet- what chance would his gene-pool stand? - 15:54:11 on 10 Nov 97 GMT

George:Born AGAIN ATHEIST..... I REALLY feel sorry for the people who cannot differentiate between fact and fiction. Even a child figures out the Santa, easter bunny, tooth fairy stories. But some people are so weak minded they have to believe in something because they can't believe in themselves. These people are sick... as they do not know the difference between reality and fiction. Real SAD - 15:55:54 on 10 Nov 97 GMT

George:Marlene....dinky boid is probably disoriented because he is standing on his head!!! - 16:15:20 on 10 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:George: Come again? You mean the Easter Bunny isn't weal? But I've believed in the Twinity of the Wabbit (The Buck, The Bunny and the Holy Does -without wanting to split hares) ever since I was born. You have wuined my life- I may not be perfect but that was twuly unwarrented. My whole life's work (proving the creation story- that the Chocolate Egg came before the Spring Chicken) has been shattered. You wascal! - 16:17:07 on 10 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene :GEORGE- Probably! Some stange creatures in za down-under! ROB-That IS good! The Twinity of the Wabbit. How does the Cosmic Carrot fit into this? Now Corny may even think of incorporating. - 16:48:22 on 10 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:GEORGE- Are you really a x-xtian? Many here have been believers at one time. What's your story? What prompted you to become atheist? I've always been atheist. As you have pointed out, as soon as I was old enough to reason that the easter bunny and santa were just myths, it naturally followed that ole creepin jee-zus and god were too. - 16:54:05 on 10 Nov 97 GMT

Steven:MARLENE, I actually had to work this morning!! Go figure. - 16:55:50 on 10 Nov 97 GMT

Steven:MARLENE, sure wish it would snow down here in Tejas. If it snows down here, the snow has melted by the next day and your back to wearing shorts and a tee again. - 16:57:51 on 10 Nov 97 GMT

Steven:ANY, I had an inner witness this weekend that told me Santa is real and exists. Along with the inner witness I had a vision. In this vision Satan (oops i meant Santa) told me that I would get a brand new truck for mythmas. I know that this will happen, my inner witness proves it. Also, I think I built my hose on some sand, you guys think I should move. - 17:01:40 on 10 Nov 97 GMT

Steven:oops i meant HOUSE, jee-eee-eee-zus. MARLENE, do they have snake dancing and strychnin abuse in Canada. - 17:02:53 on 10 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:STEVEN- HI! What do you mean by snake dancing? What color is the truck that your witness said you'd be getting for mythmas. Hope it's a black Ram! Just ask Peter for some pebbles to build up the foundation. No problemo! - 17:13:33 on 10 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:MARLENE: The cosmic carrot was all that was found in the tomb the day after they cwucified Bugs up on the hill at the Carvery. To this day we eat hot cwoss bunnies to wemind us of the passing ears, and childwen are wead passages fwom Bug's disciple, Peter Wabbit, who pwophecised of the gweat Ayn Wandy wabbit (She is famous for her reproductive capabilities, after her sermon on the mount). - 17:29:58 on 10 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene, I sthee!:oooooo! Dat's why we eat hot cwoss bunnies! - 17:47:11 on 10 Nov 97 GMT

Steven:Marlene, down here in Tejas there are christian sects (usually petacostal or something) that dance around with live poisonous rattle snakes while they are chuggin strychnin from a jar. Pretty stupid I would say. They believe that the snakes and strychnin will no harm them as long as they are praising the lord. If someone dies because of the snakes etc.. then that person was evil and could not walk with jeee-eeee-eee-eeee-zus, halleluuuujahhh, or something. - 17:47:56 on 10 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:I found a couple of good sites on the oxymoron of christian morality. I thought someone may be interested if they haven't already visited the sites. - 17:50:27 on 10 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:Here's another one - 17:55:28 on 10 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:-->STEVEN..I watched a documentary on those dingbats!!! But be careful, they all drive trucks! It may happen to you too, you old snake in the grass. - 17:56:15 on 10 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:-->MARLENE...I love your limericks. Keep them coming please! (it gives me a break from Bill and Rob's singularity discussions...) - 17:58:06 on 10 Nov 97 GMT

Joette (using her lunch break to post as she is also on a deity diet):-->TO ALL..so it is proof of god's existence that we have univeral hunger???? I bet the Ethopians, Rwandan's, Biafran's and others are delighted to know that. Is other proof of his existence tied to retro-virus', genocide, natural disasters and Quake? Well, I'm sold! I WANT to worship someone as benevolent as that! - 18:00:55 on 10 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:STEVEN- Sounds like the witch trials! The Simpson's had a good one for halloween. Marge's ancestor was accused of being a witch in Salem. The elders decided to test Marge's ancestor. She was to jump off a cliff on a broom. If she flew she really was a witch and if she fell to her death then everyone could be relieved because she really wasn't a witch. It turned out that she was a witch because she flew. I wonder how many accused witches actually did fly???? No, I don't think our Aboriginals are into anything like that, I hope! - 18:02:00 on 10 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- But all the hungry are blessed! Their hunger pains are the kisses of jee-zus (according to recently departed mother T). BTW, I wonder if Stan has been able to transfer her to heaven? - 18:07:00 on 10 Nov 97 GMT

PETER:--TO ALL--Quakeroo continues to out do himself. Let us take as an example his latest concern: world hunger as being PROOF that God exists. The "Quake Fundie" --( a new termed I just coined as a person who embraces fundieism to the fullest extent imaginable ) has the penchance for attempting to place themselves in "win-win" positions in an argument, but only manage to make their entire argument totally meaningless, with the implementation of the unbridled use of ad hoc assumptions. As far as human hunger is concerned, there are two alternatives: The world is starvivg, or it is not. If the world did NOT starve, the "Quake fundie " would say : " See, the lord provides for his children ; and if they DO starve, he insists God STILL exists as we "hunger because he does exist". On ethen asks: "how would things then be different if there was NO God?" All Quake has managed to do here is work his name into a reference -point of the Engilsh language as being an "art form" in the world of fundiesm. And remember Sanat Claus is coming to town--TWICE! I hope Quake will always poke his nose in here from time--just in case one needs to be reminded occaisionally of the most aggresive, deliberate use of mindlessness--the prime ingredients required to be a Christian Fundamentalist. Quake is perfect--he is indeed a showpice--a monument; a true art-form. - 18:35:38 on 10 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene and no acess to a computer either!:PETER- Then I think she should be put on display in a soundproof cage at a museum, in Guelph. - 18:49:35 on 10 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:MARLENE: We culd get Damien Hirst to cut him in half, and call it "Two Halves Make a 'hole". Either that or stick it with the other Pollock's. - 19:06:13 on 10 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:Oops! That should have read "he(meaning Quake) instead of she. ROB-Even the Pollocks would reject him! - 19:42:45 on 10 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene teller of news:ALL- Some depressing news--An older lady (72) in New Jersey won a 12 million dollar jackpot. She is giving 5 to 6 million of it to the rc's. What a waste! Can you imagine how many children could be fed, how many mythmas presents it would have bought? Yup, instead she gave it to the lord. Maybe buying her place in heaven? No matter I'm sure it will go a long way toward the Dope's new Dope-mobile. Or maybe even another diamond for his left pinky. - 19:48:26 on 10 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:MORE NEWS- Louise Woodward have been found by the judge to be not guilty. This subject is something that I have a strong opinion on, juries. How often are juries swayed but emotion but not on facts. Is the jury necessary in law? Is it fair? Can it make educated decisions? I personally know someone who has served jury duty. This person is more than a few bricks short of his load. I wouldn't want as a juror if I were on trial. His only thought would be on the drink he may have as soon as the day is over. - 21:01:19 on 10 Nov 97 GMT

Steven:MARLENE, are u talking about that babysitter chick, Au Pair or something like that. I have heard some of the facts, the AuPair chick was only 15. I heard that the jury covicted her without hearing all the facts. - 21:10:59 on 10 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:STEVEN- Yup! That's the case. I'm not sure if the jury didn't hear all the facts or they could not remove themselves emotionally and ignored the facts. It's a god thing we do have judges that can intervene in such cases. - 21:41:31 on 10 Nov 97 GMT

RON...down again...: Sometimes love really hurts. - 21:46:59 on 10 Nov 97 GMT

Steven:MARLENE, is that god or good?! Freudian slip mabey? - 21:49:04 on 10 Nov 97 GMT

Steven:RON<>love hurts more than anything! - 21:50:02 on 10 Nov 97 GMT

Steven:MARLENE, can you imagine being 15 years old and being put through that crap. The parents of the child should be beheaded with a butter knife. - 21:51:29 on 10 Nov 97 GMT

RON...--->STEVEN...:Yes, I know. But when you have kids, a house, and all the junk within, it hurts worse. Susan and I are finally talking about settling our property...ouch, ouch, ouch. I still love Susan with all my heart and will continue to do so. - 21:53:30 on 10 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:STEVEN- Do you mean the parents of the baby or the parents of Louise? My personal opinion is that, what in hell were the parents of the baby thinking to leave a 15 year-old girl in total charge of an infant! RON- I'm sorry to hear things didn't work out well. Time heals broken hearts. - 21:55:20 on 10 Nov 97 GMT

Steven:MARLENE, from what I have heard the parents of the baby may be at fault, and put the babysitter up as a sacrificial lamb. When I was a youngun my 15 yr olds babysitted all the time. I don't think the AuPair child would do anything deliberatly to cause the death of the infant. - 22:03:39 on 10 Nov 97 GMT

Steven:RON, hey man I fell for ya. I wish I could take you out for a few beers and a couple of tequila shots. It wouldn't solve anything but it may take your mind off of it for a couple of hours. - 22:05:42 on 10 Nov 97 GMT

Steven:RON, that should be feel not fell, jeee-eezus - 22:06:30 on 10 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:RON: Hang in there- pain has a habit of eventually putting things in perspective. MARLENE/STEVE: I daresay this is a lose-lose situation with the babysitter, but I agree the US legal system doesn't do itself any favours by including the American public in the judication process. - 22:13:10 on 10 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:-->MARLENE/STEVEN..the facts: she is 19, not 15. She was found not guilty of second degree murder, but she was found guilty of involuntary manslaugher, so she is not free as bird just yet. And I agree, this jury thing is ridiculous. If I ever murder Quake, I will have my trial in front of a judge only, as he/she will be the only one in the room qualified under the law to decide my fate. - 22:51:32 on 10 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:--->MARLENE...better get your mythmas cards in the mail today..looks like the posties are going out at the end of the week. In my province, the teachers just went back to work, and now the post office goes...maybe I should go on strike, even though I am anti-union! - 23:15:20 on 10 Nov 97 GMT

Joette (LOL!):-->STEVEN..I think Ron would be delighted that you fell for him! That's one way to mend a broken heart!!!! - 23:17:05 on 10 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- Does she now have to be tried on manslaughter? From what I understood from the bit I caught on the news is that she is free, at least tonight. If you kill Quake, it would be a mercy killing. If you had a jury of your peers, I think you could get your lawyer to pick us during jury selection. Nevertheless you'd likely have to spend some time with Kinky Karla and I would what thet to happen. So it's best to let someone run over him in the streets of Toronta when he's out there preachin'. - 23:28:47 on 10 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene with no sympathy for postal workers!:JOETTE- As far as I'm concerned, I don't send mythmas cards, so let them strike. The postal workers in Canada are almost as hated as much as those who work for Revenue Canada. Let them starve! We already pay fairly high postage fees compared to other countries. I have to drive five miles to retrieve my mail and five miles if I want to post something. If the blob we have for a mail lady doesn't spend too much time in the local cafe gossiping about who got what in the mail and eating her third breakfast, we may get out mail by late afternoon. - 23:34:37 on 10 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- That should have read "I wouldn't want that to happen" - 23:36:13 on 10 Nov 97 GMT

Folks - Don't let yourselves get into the bible thumper mentality with the idea of killing some idiot. I know it's all in jest but substituting emotion for logic is typical of the blithering idiots. We don't want them to get any more confused than they already are. Let's face it. The Godly ones kill atheists, not the other way around. What we have to do is to educate them. After all, if God didn't want atheists around he wouldn't have created them, would he? PapaSam@webtv.net - 1:11:17 on 11 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:Papasam..yes, it is all in jest when the demise of Quake is mentioned. I have come to the conclusion that he doesn't read our posts anyway, so these hollow threats are purely for the amusement of others. Since there is no god, he did not create them. Reason and logic create atheists. - 3:15:52 on 11 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:-->MARLENE..I am concerned about the strike, as most of my mythmas mail goes to Europe. Naturally, the suggested mailing date is the same day they are planning to walk. Getting your mail must be a hassle! The prices you have to pay to live in paradise... - 3:18:50 on 11 Nov 97 GMT

QUAKE:Steven..God cares for you.....Steven..God cares for you.Steven..God cares for you....Steven..God cares for you...Steven..God cares for you...Steven..God cares for you...Steven..God cares for you...Steven..God cares for you.....Steven..God cares for you.Steven..God cares for you....Steven..God cares for you...Steven..God cares for you...Steven..God cares for you...Steven..God cares for you..Steven..God cares for you.....Steven..God cares for you.Steven..God cares for you....Steven..God cares for you...Steven..God cares for you...Steven..God cares for you...Steven..God cares for you..Steven..God cares for you.....Steven..God cares for you.Steven..God cares for you....Steven..God cares for you...Steven..God cares for you...Steven..God cares for you...Steven..God cares for you..Steven..God cares for you.....Steven..God cares for you.Steven..God cares for you....Steven..God cares for you...Steven..God cares for you...Steven..God cares for you...Steven..God cares for you..Steven..God cares for you.....Steven..God cares for you.Steven..God cares for you....Steven..God cares for you...Steven..God cares for you...Steven..God cares for you...Steven..God cares for you.. - 3:48:56 on 11 Nov 97 GMT

QUAKE:Steven...and I care to - 3:49:41 on 11 Nov 97 GMT

PETER:...I'll betcha Steven won't care... - 4:35:56 on 11 Nov 97 GMT

Steven:JOETTE<>MARLENE,, I think I had a flash back! - 4:37:20 on 11 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:-->STEVE...hello! I've never seen you here after sunset before! It is a flashback..remember, he does not exist! Close your eyes real tight and the post will disappear! - 4:42:58 on 11 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:STEVEN- Do you mean Quake has gotten a hold of the same bad drugs? If so, it would explain everything! Good thing they didn't have a lasting effect on you! JOETTE- Yup! They always pull a strike when the public will have the least amount of sympathy with them. I say can them all and give people who appreciate a good paying job their jobs, to hell with the union! And who said we were joking about Quake, yuck! Have you had snow yet? It's snowing AGAIN here! - 4:46:05 on 11 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:-->TO ALL...big news in Israel today...they have decided to acknowledge the Roman Catholics and so now they are allowed to legally practise their faith. Seems Benji Yahoo has struck a deal with the Vatican, which I compare to striking a deal with Quake's devil. Now, with all that money coming from the Vatican, we are going to see some real shit happening in the middle east. - 4:46:46 on 11 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- Have you come up with any mythmas tunes? Maybe I'll have to send you some of my mythmas cake. I wrap it in a sherry soaked cloth to ripen. It will get you in the spirit! - 4:49:49 on 11 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:-->MARLENE..nope, no mythmas tunes put try this out: "Five foot nine, Palestine, He turns water into wine, Has anybody seen my lord? He's real neat, He's real cool, Walks across my swimming pool, Has anybody seen my Lord?" (to be sung to the tune of "Has Anybody Seen My Gal". And Marlene, I would be honoured to sample your cake. - 4:53:31 on 11 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- Benji Yahoo had to do something. He was beginning to look a little disgusting to the west. Sheesh! I thought the jews hated the idea that the xtians claim jee-zus is the messiah. Like you say, it just goes to show you that god can be bought. Saddam is likely laughing in his souse! - 4:54:05 on 11 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene ..now thaths the thspirit!:HEY JOETTE- I LIKE that! The tunes don't have to be the ole run of the mill xtian carrol ones. Hey, we'll be like the born agains and even make up the tunes! - 4:57:03 on 11 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- How about...atheist rock????? Peter can get in on this one, ha ha hee hee haa haa! - 4:58:48 on 11 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:-->MARLENE..being a fellow countryperson, have you ever seen David Broadfoot do bible readings? I have seen him do two recently that almost made me pee they were so funny. If you ever get the chance to see him, don't miss it. And the sad part is, all he does is read the bible, and the passages are so ridiculous that he has great fun with them. - 5:01:37 on 11 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:-->MARLENE..but the likes of Marilyn Manson have that covered, and according to most xtians, most bands play atheit rock, so the market is saturated already. Mind you, there is one little ditty that has been introduced yet (to the tune of the funeral march, slow and low) "Happy Birthday, Happy Birthday, People dying everywhere, Happy Birthday" . Should make somebody rich don't you think? - 5:07:23 on 11 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:--->gotta go! My alarm is set to go off in a few hours... - 5:10:54 on 11 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:Quake..Garbage In = Garbage Out....Quake..Garbage In = Garbage Out..Quake..Garbage In = Garbage Out.Quake..Garbage In = Garbage Out....Quake..Garbage In = Garbage Out..Quake..Garbage In = Garbage Out.Quake..Garbage In = Garbage Out....Quake..Garbage In = Garbage Out..Quake..Garbage In = Garbage Out.Quake..Garbage In = Garbage Out....Quake..Garbage In = Garbage Out..Quake..Garbage In = Garbage Out.Quake..Garbage In = Garbage Out....Quake..Garbage In = Garbage Out..Quake..Garbage In = Garbage Out.Quake..Garbage In = Garbage Out....Quake..Garbage In = Garbage Out..Quake..Garbage In = Garbage Out.Quake..Garbage In = Garbage Out....Quake..Garbage In = Garbage Out..Quake..Garbage In = Garbage Out.Quake..Garbage In = Garbage Out....Quake..Garbage In = Garbage Out..Quake..Garbage In = Garbage Out.Quake..Garbage In = Garbage Out....Quake..Garbage In = Garbage Out..Quake..Garbage In = Garbage Out. - 11:13:48 on 11 Nov 97 GMT

TO ALL:Plebs have gravitated to this page. All the small change chicken pucky ideas are SO IMPORTANT to those here. Nothing on this page has (or ever will) change anything. Everyone hopes it will. So sad. - 12:44:03 on 11 Nov 97 GMT

TO MORE ALL.......:Emagine if the energy of those who LIVE on this page were directed to a fruiteful endevour..........This whole business of RAMMING down other people's throats, your beliefs are so futile........The only people who are impressed can be counted on one hand. - 12:47:01 on 11 Nov 97 GMT

SOME IDIOT WROTE THE FOLLOWING. WHY DON'T I REPEAT IT? Must mean something to someone???????:QUAKE:Steven..God cares for you.....Steven..God cares for you.Steven..God cares for you....Steven..God cares for you...Steven..God cares for you...Steven..God cares for you...Steven..God cares for you...Steven..God cares for you.....Steven..God cares for you.Steven..God cares for you....Steven..God cares for you...Steven..God cares for you...Steven..God cares for you...Steven..God cares for you..Steven..God cares for you.....Steven..God cares for you.Steven..God cares for you....Steven..God cares for you...Steven..God cares for you...Steven..God cares for you...Steven..God cares for you..Steven..God cares for you.....Steven..God cares for you.Steven..God cares for you....Steven..God cares for you...Steven..God cares for you...Steven..God cares for you...Steven..God cares for you..Steven..God cares for you.....Steven..God cares for you.Steven..God cares for you....Steven..God cares for you...Steven..God cares for you...Steven..God cares for you...Steven..God cares for you..Steven..God cares for you.....Steven..God cares for you.Steven..God cares for you....Steven..God cares for you...Steven..God cares for you...Steven..God cares for you...Steven..God cares for you.. - 3:4 - 12:51:50 on 11 Nov 97 GMT

OR HOW ABOUT>..........:Quake..Garbage In = Garbage Out....Quake..Garbage In = Garbage Out..Quake..Garbage In = Garbage Out.Quake..Garbage In = Garbage Out....Quake..Garbage In = Garbage Out..Quake..Garbage In = Garbage Out.Quake..Garbage In = Garbage Out....Quake..Garbage In = Garbage Out..Quake..Garbage In = Garbage Out.Quake..Garbage In = Garbage Out....Quake..Garbage In = Garbage Out..Quake..Garbage In = Garbage Out.Quake..Garbage In = Garbage Out....Quake..Garbage In = Garbage Out..Quake..Garbage In = Garbage Out.Quake..Garbage In = Garbage Out....Quake..Garbage In = Garbage Out..Quake..Garbage In = Garbage Out.Quake..Garbage In = Garbage Out....Quake..Garbage In = Garbage Out..Quake..Garbage In = Garbage Out.Quake..Garbage In = Garbage Out....Quake..Garbage In = Garbage Out..Quake..Garbage In = Garbage Out.Quake..Garbage In = Garbage Out....Quake..Garbage In = Garbage Out..Quake..Garbage In = Garbage Out. - - 12:52:43 on 11 Nov 97 GMT

INPUT ENERGY compared with any ACHIEVEMENT...........:.....Has anybody achieved anything???? - 12:54:30 on 11 Nov 97 GMT

AM I CORRECT?????????:The engergy/achievement spent on this page is inversely proportional to any success in life. - 13:08:02 on 11 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:ANONYMOUS HYPOCRITE: I can assure you the energy invested in my post was less than that used by you to reproduce it (Cut+Paste). I achieve plenty, but come here for amusement/philosophy. Why do you come here? There is no point in your posting that comment about nothing on this page changing anything, as by your definition it cannot change anything. I suppose the fact that your are only counting with one hand implies you must be doing something with the other. Now I wonder what that could be!!! How do you define fruitful endeavour? - 13:15:54 on 11 Nov 97 GMT

Grant:ANONYMOUS-- I see you know how to use your time more wisely. - 13:17:26 on 11 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:-->ROB/GRANT..no sense wasting your time on him. I am pretty sure that it is our friend Hamish Milne from down under, so be prepared, you may see posts appearing from several months ago too. There must some sort of lack of oxygen there, as the majority of posters from that continent have been interesting (to be politically correct). - 15:12:50 on 11 Nov 97 GMT

PETER:--ROB--Hey, that's what God did before He Created the universe--what else could he do? ANONYMOUS POSTER: ( And I have a pretty good idea who it is )--..and when Christians go to the Christian chat page, we witness fruitful stimulating, and earth-shattring conversation that will change the world? I've seen a few christian chat pages, and one is as looney and so utterly non-consequential as the next. - 15:37:03 on 11 Nov 97 GMT

Carl:PETER: Elsewhere I have read that R.Dawkins refers to religious creation storys as theory, and nought else, and that they are erroneous theorys. This sort of view appears as accurate if we consider the notion of a hypotheses. The first problem is in its antiquity. When the words of those ol'storys were first uttered science as a fact finding lever did not exist. True they made some observations, such as thou shall not kill, et.al., that and others are just rudimentary connections of intension and extensionary things. So what those ol'myths and superstitions did if viewed as something hypothetical, they merely filled in the void of those ol'ancients. Where is the void? The void is the connection or gap between their emotions and brainwork. This means that the "gap" is equivalent to nothing as it represents the area of what they knew and did not know. Many in todays times still do not know, as the figures of bible belief and education illustrated[someone posted these several weeks ago], clearly reveal. Now, the great state o'Alabama wants prayer and other assorted religious things ok'd by the gov't, i guess. The religious types obviously prefer others to think for them. What a waste. - 15:59:42 on 11 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene about the clueless one:ALL- Whomever the ass is, I'm sure the only reason he posts here is because he has nothing better to do. I suppose it would be like me posting on a site that dealt with auto mechanics. Even though I wouldn't have a clue about what they were discussing, I would post that they had nothing to discuss. - 16:26:05 on 11 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:PETER: So that must be why we celebrate Palm Sunday! JOETTE: Yes, I recognise that git's drivelling tone from somewhere, but hey- it must get boring over there. I mean, you've seen one sheep's ass you've seen them all... - 16:30:03 on 11 Nov 97 GMT

Carl:OPEN: I recall reading at a creation science site that in their view Freund had been successfully refuted. So i wondered why, turns out Sigi' said some very unflattering things about religion such as "religion alone is a serious enemy" said in regards to science. Also, Sigi' said "...,and that no knowledge can be obtained from revelation, intuition or inspiration." So it seems that such statements brought about the mystic's need to refute not so much what Sigi said as it was more important that what he represented go down even though others such as William James said more that might be viewed as more substantive. That effigy like statement as the "creation scientist" site(snicker) made it appear, its just silly. The mystics gotta'do better than that. - 17:58:17 on 11 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:CARL- This is likely te same site that Quake copies and pastes from. It a real blast! - 18:13:37 on 11 Nov 97 GMT

Carl:OPEN: It always proves amusing when mystics like that one of last week or so, who inscribed of the heavens above as indicative o'his\her god. Of this several things, Platos' words of astronomy that relate the following "...may become godless because they see...things happening by necessity, and not by an intelligent will accomplishing good. Two things lead men to believe in gods...is the argument from the order of the motion of the stars and all things under the dominion of the mind which ordered the universe." That is probably an interesting statement, out of antiquity. Elsewhere I read an article on the atheism of astronomy. One of the more interesting points that I recall asks about all the energy of the sun that does not shine on this planet. It asked if that arrangement is the order of the universe and is it the doing\deed of intelligence? Then the article went on about all the "disorder" of the heavens which brings to mind the post I addressed to BILL about the colliding galaxies. - 18:55:41 on 11 Nov 97 GMT

RON...--->ALL...I HAVE PREFORMED A MIRACLE...: I HAVE BROKEN THE ICE!!! I HAVE BROKEN THE ICE!!! I'm da MAN!!! I've cracked the stone-cold ice that wraps the heart of my wife. I'm going to win. Look, is that light I see? - 18:56:12 on 11 Nov 97 GMT

Carl:MARLENE: While those of the religious pursausion that showup here, are a sad lot when it comes to originality, I think I can see their fear. It never ceases to amaze me that these folks are such shallow people, but hey! where are you from that place where the Polar bears showup? Probably south but how far so? - 19:28:21 on 11 Nov 97 GMT

Ron:Trying to reconcile my innate fear of death with my atheism has been difficult. I've been so conditioned to believe that there is an afterlife. In the last few years though, I've become convinced that after my body dies, short of a small contribution of energy back into the soil, there will be no more ego-consciousness for me. The simple thought of non-existence has scared the shit out of me for a while now. One strange thought that has recently crept into my thoughts is: "It's okay to not be, too." In some strange way, I find comfort in this thought. - 19:43:18 on 11 Nov 97 GMT

Warnings:Everyday they pass me by. I can see it in their eyes. Empty people filled with care, headed who knows where. On they go, through private pain, living fear to fear. Laughter hides they're silent cries. Only Jesus hears. People need the Lord.At the end of broken dreams, he's the open door. People need the Lord.When will we realize... People need the Lord. (song) * I met a man the other day, who looked at me and said. So many times I've seen your kind before. He said, "you can't do this, and you can't do that...Your bound by rules and restrictions. What a dreary life you christians must observe." Well I looked him in the eyes, and I said" your wrong" "I can do anything that turns me on.. I can smoke til my eyes turn red, and my face turns blue... I can chew and dip, snort and cuss, party all night until the sun comes up.. BUT theres better things in life I'd rather do" You see, "I choose to be a christian. I choose to be like him... nobodys making me do this, this is how I want to live" So don't look at me, with sympothy, and think that I've been cheated.. by not doing all of those things that you all fun. Some night when yourgettin' down, on some darker side of town ... my soul will lifted out of here. * Beyond the ope door, is a new and fresh annointing, here the spirit calling for you to come. Step on through the door, for the Lord will go before you, into a greater power, you've never known before. *Another time of battle, another place in time, a soldier hangs between heaven and hell, His life now on the line. Abandoned in the heat of the battle, he cries out in silent pain. He wonders if he'll live to see the morning light, as they mock and they curse his name. Why was he here in the first place. Wasn't there some other way. Was redemptions plan for fallen man, worth this price he would have to pay. * They sit with the purpose of laughter/ To mock that holy name/ Not knowing the hour is late/ Not knowing they'll soon see their shame/ Not knowing the shadows are falling/ Ignoring the christians plea/ But all at once, and far too late/ They'll be in misoury/ They'll stand and shake their fists at God/ As fire, and destruction come crashing down/ But He will not hear their cursing/ No he won't hear a sound/ He'll be rejoicing with the saints/ As the marriage takes its place/ And those left here, have much to fear/ For they have failed the race/ They sit on their computers/ Cursing those of God/ And all the while time marches on/ As they claim Him to be a fraud/ Oh whoa to those who won't give in/ Ignoring the saviors cry/ "Follow me, theirs still hope for you/ You don't have to die"/ Much sorrow for those who sit and grin/ As he warns you all again/ And smirk, and laugh, and curse his name../ and wallow in your sin/ Like Noahs time, you ignore his cry/ Laughing... "The days are sunny"/ But in the day, the Lord returns/ You won't think its too funny/ That is all for now, I'll be on my way/ Won't stay to see your snears/ But remeber this little poem I wrote/ When you cry those bitter tears/ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~POOF~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ - 19:54:58 on 11 Nov 97 GMT

Carl:RON: the matters of your last post is that thing that I think i see. Last week I put forth that if the mystics would just say that they either feared death or that they wanted life forever that then it would be a much simpler matter of communicating. For my part I was never taught or really exposed to the god stuff, spirits, soul, angels and devils. I was however told day after day about knowledge, storys, and such other stuff. Through the years it has never even concerned me that there might be an issue of theism or atheism. Until I began to work on a PC and got one with the I-net, my ignorance of these matters was complete. I was always alive but someday, like my first dogs, I too would be dead. Life after death has always been only a matter of whose memory I would be part of. heavens and hells, what or where are these, surely not are they because someone long ago wrote some words about them are they so. I can write the same, but my story would be much nicer. - 20:04:16 on 11 Nov 97 GMT

Ron:Carl: I understood you up until: "heavens and hells, what or where are these, surely not are they because someone long ago wrote some words about them are they so. I can write the same, but my story would be much nicer." Could you please explain what you meant here? Warnings: sounds like you're a bit defensive, huh? Sorry somebody offended you. Personally, I think you should live your life as you see fit. And stop preaching, would'ja? It's so annoying! - 20:29:00 on 11 Nov 97 GMT

PETER:...gee, I wish these recovering alcoholics would keep it to themselves...snore...snore.....One of the more recent weapons used by the fundies is a book by the name of Denison which allegedly has de-coded scripture into foretelling the future--most recently the prediction that Anwar Sadat will be murdered by his own army--and many more profound, starling and accurate predictions. So they would like to think. A statitician/skeptic, also found the phrases " Darwin was right on target" and " This code is totally false"--among others. The same skeptic also found many other very accurate predictions such as the attack on Pearl Harbour, the asassintion of Kennedy on Nov.22. 1963--as well as Lee Harvey Oswald's shortly thereafter, and various other events--all found within the text of the book "War and Peace" - 20:50:18 on 11 Nov 97 GMT

Carl:RON: The question was rhetorical, they- heaven/hell, are nothing, they were figments of some scientifically ignorant writer. I could, so could you, as might any with some bit of imagination could they too compose a better story than those that the mystics so endear themselves to, they are a sad lot. - 20:52:46 on 11 Nov 97 GMT

Steven:PETER, how many times was kennedy shot? - 20:53:53 on 11 Nov 97 GMT

Steven:ANY<<>>is it me, or am I the only one that understands that the no firey lake is mentioned in the mythological christian bible. We had to read Dante's "inferno" in HS. What they describe is vert similar to "inferno". - 20:55:53 on 11 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:RON- I was raised on a farm. Death came to most animals eventually. I, of course, attached myself to most of them as I worked with them everyday. I really missed them when they died but came to realize that once dead they were no longer. I asked my aunt if they went to heaven as she had suggested people did when they died and she said yes. I asked my uncle and he said he didn't know but he did know that they no longer had life. He told me to die was like going to sleep but never waking up. It made sense to me. My uncle died when I was 15. He went to sleep but didn't wake up. I missed him but accepted his death as final. I love being alive and I'll fight to stay alive as long as my quality of live remains, but I don't fear death and it is the only thing in this life that i s certain. I suppose I look at my death like the writer of this song "When I die and when I'm gone there'll be one child born in this world to carry on". I'm not sure whether the lyrics say "born" or "left" but I self-adjusted the song anyway to express what I mean. - 21:22:55 on 11 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:CARL- I live south-east of the city of Winnipeg in Manitoba. I'm about 1000 miles south of the polar bears. We have bears but they have gone to bed for the winter. Which brings to mind that I better look up so more info on the polar bear as to whether they hibernate or not?????? - 21:27:46 on 11 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:STEVEN and PETER- A coincidence you mentioned predictions and the Kennedy's. I just finished watching an HBO special on Nostradamos(sp). Supposedly the guy predicted everthing but of course it's wild interpretation, IMO. In case you haven't noticed, WW3 was begun in 1994. A great islamic king has decided to wage war on the US and in July, 1999 they will be a atomic bombing of New York city leaving not one person alive. The US and Russia will join forces and defeat the islamic leader and from that point for 1000 years we will have peace. Isn't it wonderful! - 21:34:08 on 11 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene...hot on the trail:STEVEN- I think your right. Fire destroyed a few cities and their is the ole feiry furnace story out of daniel and then of course the ole feiry serpent himself, jee-zus! - 21:41:07 on 11 Nov 97 GMT

Steven:MARLENE<>isn't that the deal where the eagle and the bear will join up to defeat some madman in the east. This comes from my inner witness by the way. - 21:53:57 on 11 Nov 97 GMT

Carl:MARLENE: 'preciate it, per the past eve.news they ran a short story of a town on the so'side o'the Hudson bay where the P-bears showup. The event looked like it was becoming a source o'revenue for that suburb. - 22:05:25 on 11 Nov 97 GMT

Ron:Marlene: Thanks for the response. I do tend to torture myself with thoughts of the final moment, that one second when something becomes nothing. I suppose I shouldn't torture myself. By the way, that song was sung by Blood, Sweat & Tears (I'm not sure if they wrote it, though.) - 22:10:05 on 11 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:RON- I never really think about my death other than making sure my wishes are carried out. Like NO RELIGION and donating my body to science if they can use it. CARL- I think the town your thinking about is Churchill. I understand they do make a few bucks off tourism there. Not only off the bears but fishing camps etc. It's really lovely there in the summer. STEVEN- Yup! the same ole gog and magog crap only gog and magog join to defeat the middle-east. Watch those idiotic xtians label Saddam the anti-christ. - 22:24:11 on 11 Nov 97 GMT

Carl:MARLENE: Churchill is correct, as for gog magog thing, a few years back wasn't the anti-christ gonna' be Khaddafi? The good ol' US o'A, the ugly americans, do anything for its'ways including making the most o'those old myths and fables. Any ever read that paperback? The Ugly American. - 22:45:49 on 11 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:ALL: Here's a quote from the Sleeve of a CD of mine (Babybird- "Ugly Beautiful"): "God is the most successful famous person I know. The press can't get near him, so I never get to read about him. They don't even bother to go after him, he's so invisible. Some churches even leave their doors open, but the only photographers going in, take Instamatic Supersnaps of icons nailed to wooden planes without motors. The closest I ever got to such religious flights of fancy was in the Costa Del Sol. Someone had stuck a cutout of Branson's face on a beautiful bust of God's son. It was almost too good for a picture. I did have a good camera, but you can't photograph lies, however much you try. So there you have it- UGLY BEAUTIFUL- just a hamless little bit of fun. Nothing as bad as celibates having fantasies about Jesus". Better than a bible passage, don't you think? - 22:51:48 on 11 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:-->CARL...I have read the Ugly American, and I found it quite thought provoking. - 22:56:10 on 11 Nov 97 GMT

Carl:JOETTE: Oh, i agree, it does make one ponder things. While I was writin' about bears and stuff I could not get the name of that town out on paper, good thing MARLENE told me what I wanted to say. - 23:10:41 on 11 Nov 97 GMT

Carl:RON: Didn't mean to drop our topic, but one of the points I make of this site of me before now, the god stuff was never a concern, I'd read the book heard those kinda'people make their pitch and found them always lacking. They were always- to me, as of no concern, they were mental cases, potential problems, but never a serious consideration for me. They were simply too unintelligent. But, since being here watchin' the rest o'you pro's and readin' your counter arguments and counter points, many I was familiar with but never applied to these mystics because in my view, these folks just did not merit such a lofty response. Such a response merely elevated their cause. But, again, they severely lack sound grey matter activity and the nonsense they promote is counter to whatever is good for humanity. - 23:26:40 on 11 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:--->CARL..but don't you think they should be given serious consideration? I do. I think they are a menace to society at large, no different than the Jimmy Jones of the world. I think that the loftier the response, the better, even if it falls on deaf ears on their part. At least those other of us are given some affirmation of our own ideas, and as you have mentioned, we can be educating each other at the same time. The "E" word to the fundies is as the "N" word is to the Simpson trial. - 23:58:15 on 11 Nov 97 GMT

Joette picks the winners!:--->Yoohoo! ADAM! Did you happen to catch that BOTH Cy Young winners were from CANADIAN teams? - 0:00:34 on 12 Nov 97 GMT

Carl:JOETTE: Very much so, as I point out as often as possible, before I got my hands on this machine-PC, toy, my ignorance was complete. Now that I have seen how the mystics have gone about things they did so while I looked down my nose at their stupidity. Now as you say they are a danger that must be countered. - 0:06:50 on 12 Nov 97 GMT

Adam THINGS MORE IMPORTANT THAN REMEBRANCE DAY:Howdy, Joette. Today is Rey Ordonez's 25th birthday. - 0:51:08 on 12 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene...gotta get on the soapbox for this one:CARL- No, I haven't read the book but now you and Joette have peaked my interest. It's on my list. JOETTE- As you and Carl have pointed out, religion looks beign enough but if someone doesn't check on the children they can not only harm themselves but many others. ADAM- Remberance day is very important to me. If Adolf had won the war, would we be here? Not only that, my stepfather was a prisoner of war in Japan or as we call them here Hong Kong vets. He suffered a great deal so that you and I could have our freedom. An uncle was shot down over France and a french family rescued him and doctored his broken leg as well as hid him. I wouldn't have ever met him if I didn't remember those who were courageous enough to harbor him. Also many other relatives died in the wars or as a result of wars so that I could have my freedom. To me there are only three holidays in the year that I truly believe in and one is Remembance Day as well as Mothers Day and F athers Day. There's nothing more important than these days. - 1:25:51 on 12 Nov 97 GMT

Joette (Imagine!):-->TO ALL..an amusing article I read to day in part reads "If John Lennon could say "I told you so", he would have done so Monday. The man who created a furor in 1966 when he said the Beatles were more popular than Jesus, has had his point emphatically proved for him by a British Christian group. The Evangelical Alliance, which claims to represent at least one million Christians of 20 denominations in the U.K., has just completed a search of the Internet in which it counted the number of times Jesus is mentioned. As a comparison, and mindful of what had been said more than 30 years ago, the Alliance also tallied the number of times Lennon appeared and the number of mentions of the Beatles as a group. The score leaves little doubt. The Beatles, gathered a meagre 34,866 documents, compared to 2,176, 401 for Jesus. But John Lennon amassed 21,927,145..... - 1:32:17 on 12 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:-->MARLENE..make room on the soapbox for me too, in regards to Remembrance Day. TO YOU AMARIKANS...I have been wondering if any of you served in Vietnam? (maybe you were all too young?) Bill, did you? (you were very accusatory about Canada hiding draft dodgers) - 1:39:48 on 12 Nov 97 GMT

RICHARD:MAY GOD OPEN YOUR HEART TO HEAR THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST ! YOU ALL NEED A HEART TRANSPLANT; GOD CAN REMOVE YOUR HEART OF STONE AND REPLACE IT WITH A HEART OF FLESH. - 1:50:36 on 12 Nov 97 GMT

RICHARD:RON; BELIEVE ON JESUS AND YOU WILL NO LONGER "FEAR" DEATH. FOR THEN YOU WILL HAVE PASSED FROM DEATH TO LIFE, BY THE LIFE THAT JESUS NOW HAS IE: ETERNAL LIFE !! - 1:53:24 on 12 Nov 97 GMT

-->AND MAY YOU OPEN YOUR EARS TO HEAR JOHN LENNON! - 2:10:18 on 12 Nov 97 GMT

-->AND MAY YOU OPEN YOUR EYES TO SEE REALITY! - 2:13:19 on 12 Nov 97 GMT

-->AND MAY YOU OPEN YOUR NOSTRILS TO SMELL THE BULLSHIT YOU HAVE BEEN TOSSING ABOUT! - 2:14:52 on 12 Nov 97 GMT

PETER:--.."Heart of Stone"? .. Didn't the Rolling Stones do that song?... I would say that Richard pocessess all the pre-requisites to be deemed a "QuakeFundie" - 2:21:25 on 12 Nov 97 GMT

RON...--->oh well...:Susan had an ulterior motive for being nice to me the last 3 days. My lawyer read some of her last counter offer to me over the phone today....she had thoughts of money up her sleeve. I'm going to crack the foundation of heaven getting even. My heart is void of love. I'm going to mop the planet with her. This will be my last laundry post. My life lies ahead and I have much to do....I may not be around for a week or so...have a lot of thinking to do. May you all walk in peace while I'm away. - 3:55:49 on 12 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- I think the best song Lennon ever wrote was "Imagine". I think the absurdity is when one needs to imagine reality! - 4:27:11 on 12 Nov 97 GMT

Ron:Oh Richard. Please. I am so glad that I am able to use both my heart AND my head in coming to my OWN conclusions about life and death. It must be untimately very sad for you to be unable to come to any conclusion other than what your told. Carl: Thanks for getting back to me. I agree with all you say. I kind of like the way you word things. Take care. - 4:49:57 on 12 Nov 97 GMT

jaywilson:PETER: Richard's may be the Bray of Fundie. - 10:48:56 on 12 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:-->and wouldn't it be great if he would Channel his English to somewhere else? He's obviously all wet! - 12:03:01 on 12 Nov 97 GMT

PETER:--RON--Excellent comments to King Richard. - 12:18:09 on 12 Nov 97 GMT

.:. - 12:19:23 on 12 Nov 97 GMT

RON...--->Malene...: I agree, "Imagine" is one of my *all time favorites*, the world would be a beautiful place if we all lived as one. Is it getting cold up there? The weather has begun to worsen down here. Wet and cold, a winter to remember is upon us. - 13:49:22 on 12 Nov 97 GMT

RON...--->RICHARD...:You've ignored my sincere questions, I wished to know more of your devotion to your religion and you continued to babble, please take a hike. Do us all a favor and walk in front of a bus. You are a perfect example of what's wrong with religion, ignoring the present and dwelling on a faded untrue past. - 13:53:33 on 12 Nov 97 GMT

Steven:you go RON, however, nothing that any of has said to RICHARD the MythHearted or QUACK has changed anything. They refuse to answer any question put to them with a intelligent response. - 13:57:14 on 12 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:-->STEVEN/RON..but the good part is that their visits are becoming less frequent and much shorter. - 15:03:56 on 12 Nov 97 GMT

Steven:Halelujah, - 15:27:19 on 12 Nov 97 GMT

Carl:JOETTE: also of the recent visitors, while they choose to think old time storys are the way to explain this ever changing world, if but one, however, could communicate of themself what they have seen and how and why only they saw that whatever, then ideas and the intellect might meaningfully get exchanged and expand. But, they head off on their own just saying things of antiquity. This penchant for the myth and superstitions of old that tell of implausible worlds and foretell of the impossible, is purely ridiculous.[ridicule-the act o'making one the object o'scornful laughter.] We non-mystics do not have the "heart" to laugh at them of course, but as they go on unyeildingly the mystic, eventually is just barely not a hydrocephalic after his\her choice. They seem to forget that passage once said probably by a materialist of those of antiquity, that mention something about things done on earth as in some heaven. In their mindlessness, though, they-mystics, just do the bidding of their leaders who want control. - 16:15:27 on 12 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:STEVEN- YEE-HAA! Carl, with the dinguses we've experienced lately, heartless me laughs at them fairly regularly. - 16:19:06 on 12 Nov 97 GMT

Carl:MARLENE: well, yea! the quack and RICHARD sometimes bring out a chuckle, but these individuals mostly astound me that they can persist in such foolishness as they do at this site. They are certainly are both sources of income for some form or kind or type of psychology learned person. - 16:37:12 on 12 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:-->CARL..you made a good point, in that they will never share their own personal experiences, as when god talks to them, or jesus visits them for tea and biscuits. Those are the relevations I am most truly interested in hearing about, but alas, for them, when asked, maybe they realize that is could have just been a hallucination, possibly during a bad acid trip. - 17:00:15 on 12 Nov 97 GMT

Carl:JOETTE: If what they experienced was real none of these individuals that showup here, would have to resort to spewing off midieval-like jargon that attributes the intellect to some angel or some supra-intellectual thing, these are only words about what us living breathing thinking humans do. What need is there, might there be, for anything outside of whatever we are? So, except for air water and sustenance, oh and an occassional quickie, what else does one need? - 17:15:50 on 12 Nov 97 GMT

Carl:OPEN: Anyways, in line with the post to JOETTE, many if not most or all learned folks somewhere in their declarations mention the needs for simplicity. That idea does not seem to fall beneath the ideas of sin and rebirth and the general ignorance of the experience of ones existence that is required for religious purposes. - 17:49:52 on 12 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:-->CARL..that's because their mantra is KISS.. (keep it simple, stupid) - 17:59:51 on 12 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:JOETTE: I thought you had been keeping those little witticisms up your "sleeve". jaywilson: Bonjour, mon amis. Ready for a little monky business? RICHARD THE LYIN' HEART: Don't you think that emotional decisions are a subset of reasoned ones, merely in which the decider chooses to base his choice on subjective rather than objective information? - 18:32:46 on 12 Nov 97 GMT

Carl:ROB: objective subjective topics do not appear in scripture, but, as they reset their thinkin to current time i'm sure they can decipher such ideas or even a message from a fitting passage. then they- mystics, might inscribe of "ye with no faith", or "seek and ye'shall find" or "the lord provides" and the list goes on, if one has some imagination. - 20:10:00 on 12 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:SHEESH, Another crack pot(or the same one) to a shot at a doctor who performs abortions. This time in Winnipeg and the other two times in Hamilton and Vancouver. He/she nearly killed the doctor this time as he was shot in the shoulder not the arm or the leg. Just bet it's a fundie! - 20:10:09 on 12 Nov 97 GMT

Steven:MARLENE, all they do is shoot them in Canada. Here in the Empire of USA the fundies like to use bombs. Explain to me how lifer's believe that abortion is murder but the death penalty is acceptable. - 20:37:23 on 12 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:-->ROB...there was an saying back in the 60's (way before my time of course, but I do a lot of reading LOL!) that had to do with the Vietnam War. You've probably heard it "Fighting for peace is like fucking for virginity". I often think of this saying when I hear about pro-lifer's trying to knock off doctors that perform abortions. - 20:53:29 on 12 Nov 97 GMT

Protect Life!:-->Steve, thats an easy one! Death penalty is given to adults who know the difference of right and wrong, and made a decision to murder or rape. An unborn child is the definition of pure innocence! Therefore in essance one who is put to death by capital punishment has chosen death him/herself whereas a small child still in the womb is not able to. - 20:54:38 on 12 Nov 97 GMT

-->ROB...sorry, that last post was supposed to be directed to STEVEN. I guess I can't get you off my mind.... - 20:56:24 on 12 Nov 97 GMT

Wondering....:are we passifists here? - 20:56:45 on 12 Nov 97 GMT

QUAKE:Hello all..what must it be like to have no hope beyond death, to live only for the moment, how sad must some be when thier life is boring or uneventful..That is sad, but iof you had the hope of eternal life you would be free and live in wonder and revelation and hope. Christianity is not about man made buildings or forms and ritual, but about living in the kingdom of God where Jesus Christ is Lord and reveals to us riches, and wonder and love, we walk in a different place and are seated with Christ in heavenly places. Come into the kingdom, by repenting of your sins and believe in Christ. He will give you eternal life - 21:09:31 on 12 Nov 97 GMT

Steven:PROTECTLIFE, the right to have an abortion is a womans choice bud. It is not the place for some christian yahoo to make the decision for her. period. - 21:12:28 on 12 Nov 97 GMT

Steven:WONDERING, NO we are not all pacifist here! - 21:13:44 on 12 Nov 97 GMT

Steven:QUAKE<>Fuck off asshole. I had thought possible that you had gotten the clue. I guess the one brain cell you posses is busy full time dealing with your mythology. Please leave, even the creator of this page is saying that your bs is tired. We heard everything you had to say with your first post. - 21:16:20 on 12 Nov 97 GMT

Steven:PROTECT LIFE<> it sure is funny how you pro lifers condemn murder, but then commit murder. Kind an odd wouldn't you say. Bunch of fucking lunatic christians. We have a game that we play down here. We find pro life demonstrations and drive by them quickly with large tractor chains out the widow hoping to catch a head, leg, arm etc... I once recorded five hits in one pass. What a blast. You people sicken me. - 21:19:34 on 12 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:Oh skippedy do-dah, skippedy dey! Hello all you fun-loving atheists! Isn't great knowing that you have been given the chance of living a rich life on this planet, free from having to believe in lies and doctrines that contradict your emotions. How sad it must be for someone so lost and weak that they feel they can only live under the instruction of a religion. I'm off to go savour this glorious day, byeee! - 21:20:57 on 12 Nov 97 GMT

Steven:I guess that would be christian bashing instead of mail box bashing. heheheheh hahahheheh h - 21:22:34 on 12 Nov 97 GMT

Carl:ANY; Hope- a "feeling" that what is wanted will happen. So, this "hope", is a good thing? - 21:25:06 on 12 Nov 97 GMT

RON...--->Steven...:Where is my bumper sticker? - 21:49:00 on 12 Nov 97 GMT

Steven:RON<<>>Ill send ya one. - 22:01:15 on 12 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:RON & STEVEN- Don't you two live in the same area. You could meet for coffee or a beer! Wish we all could do that! - 22:13:45 on 12 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene see I started a war (I knew it hehe!):Now on the "right to choose". This is absolutely not the issue although the right of choice should be a natural given to anyone. The issue here is what is life????? Life is not a six week old embryo. And I agree, since when do these savers of non-life have the right to take life. Of course their whole philosophy is screwed anyway! - 22:17:43 on 12 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:-->MARLENE..well, you can come to my house too! Grab a ride on the nearest polar bear! Or maybe bring a snow mobile..it's coming down fast and furious here! - 22:20:04 on 12 Nov 97 GMT

GOD quakeish but persevering: :Hello Marlene and all other M-I-M-Made bevy of cronies. Rand felt that fetuses consisted of no-more cells than appendixes and tonsils and can lay no claim to life, as potential beings have little right to anything. Pro-lifers should consider that next time their appendix�s iche. Zoink! - 22:23:33 on 12 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:Just let me guess who this ...Wondering...and Protect Life is. Obviously a liar as he/she believes in the death penalty, also an idiot as "wondering" hasn't led him to any reasonable conclusions. Let me guess.....?????? Could it be the oxymoron, Curious? - 22:24:15 on 12 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:-->A funny family story for you all...a brother-in-law in Vancouver is so much of a fundie that he makes Quake look like an atheist. He and his wife have spent much time and energy protesting at abortion clinics in that city and one day things got out of hand and they were arrested. When it went to court, most of the charges were dropped because everybody pled guilty, except my sister-in-law. She thought she had god on her side, and when she was asked to enter her plea, she told the judge that god would be her only judge, and that he would not find her guilty for protecting unborn children. The judge was not impressed, told her not little priss was going to tell him who the judge in that courtroom was, and sentenced her to 60 days in jail. She had to serve the entire too! My brother-in-law asked us if we would all pray for her, and write to her as she was lonely. Well, she didn't get one written or spoken word from me, and to this day I still laugh about it. Naturally, they won't consort with "my kind" so I haven't had to waste my breath on them for a long, long time. - 22:26:35 on 12 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:GOD- How nice to have you back! How's Gabby??? - 22:27:06 on 12 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:GOD- How nice to have you back! How's Gabby??? - 22:27:23 on 12 Nov 97 GMT

Joette :-->GOD...we have been arguing about whether you are ominiscient and omnipotent. Could you please give us the truth!? - 22:32:25 on 12 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:-->WONDERING..well, we are all passifists, because eventually we will all pass away. However, while I have my short time drawing breath, I am a pacifist. - 22:34:48 on 12 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- Now I get to use LOL! Ha ha! God is on her side eh? Well he's here now and obviously not in her arena. I guess the judge caught telling lies for god. I hope she carried on the charade while incarcerated. Washing other inmates feet and the whole bit??? - 22:43:15 on 12 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- I also went for a ride to your province today, Kenora. I was surprised to find that many of the lakes aren't frozen yet. - 22:46:04 on 12 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:STEVEN: Are you the De-fender of free will? JOETTE: You're on form tonight girl ;) That little en passe on wondering worked a treat. MARLENE: It would appear ignorance is Proliferating these days. - 22:58:57 on 12 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:JOETTE: That should read en passant- sorry, I had to get that off my chesst. BTW, I presume the moral of that story being "Judge, lest not ye be judged" - 23:03:37 on 12 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:ROB- I'm sure Richard the Lyin Heart will have a different interpretation of that passage. - 23:16:43 on 12 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:-->MARLENE..maybe Kenora is enjoying the favourable affects of El Ninio because everything here is freezing up in a hurry. You should have just gone the other 1,000 miles to come to my house for coffee! - 23:31:50 on 12 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:MARLENE: I daresay. He will probably spout something about the courage of your convictions... - 23:42:58 on 12 Nov 97 GMT

Carl:ANY; Freewill? perhaps to go here one might see something else, - 23:44:31 on 12 Nov 97 GMT

Adam :What's the news, folks? Hey, Canucks, I heard some kind of self-regulatory organization recommended that Stern be thrown off the Canairwaves. What's the deal? - 0:05:11 on 13 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:-->CARL..do you mean that it is a good piece of writing, or are we supposed to be looking for an ulterior motive? I think his whole essay was summed up beautifully in the very last line. Social engineering be damned! - 0:10:42 on 13 Nov 97 GMT

Adam Now That The Worm's Out of the Bag...:Marlene: With regard to the "right to choose" in the context of abortion, from whence does that right arise, and at what point, if any, would you imbue the fetus with: (A) rights of a potentially protectable future life interest or, as baseball abortion afficionados call it, a POPFLI; and (B) full rights as a person? - 0:13:58 on 13 Nov 97 GMT

Adam Old Right-to-choose chuckle:Is Roe v. Wade the dilemma at the riverbank? - 0:16:03 on 13 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:-->ADAM..it is with great shame that I respond to your post...yes, the powers that be in Ottawa have determined that Howie has crossed some sort of moral line. Hell, I have no problem listening to a program where he does breast examinations for the good of medecine, that two guys screw a blow up doll, that he discussed the size of Tommy Lee's manly bits for 3 hours...but anyway, on his opening show in September, he stated that he hates French people, and since French is one of our offical languages, and since one of the two stations that carry him just happens to be Montreal, Quebec, a lot of sucks were offended, and he is being forced to apologize. I am so pissed off about this fucking puritan attitude this country keeps trying to convey that I think I will move! Rock Bitch isn't allowed to perform, Howard Stern can't crack jokes, and the Blue Jays suck. Why should I stay here???? (sorry if I sound like Steven LOL!) Anyway, Howard Stern said today that he is being crucified (smacks of John Lennon) and I hope he goes to Ottawa and kicks some serious assch! Now don't get me started! - 0:16:14 on 13 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:-->ADAM..forgive me, having a bit of a manic episode here...in Canada, a fetus has no rights, and is not considered a person until he/she swims the canal! - 0:18:14 on 13 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- When I see a polar bear heading that way, I'll hop on and come for coffee! ADAM- Every person should have a right to choose IMO. A fetus is not a person, although....since the fetus has a very good chance of living after the second trimester then I agree that an abortion should not be performed then. I do not think abortion should be used as a form of birth control. I also agree that a fetus under four months has not got a developed brain and therefore is not conscious, therfore not human life. - 0:29:33 on 13 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:CARL- Thanks for the site but I already have been there. About a year ago we were arguing freewill here and I came across it. - 0:31:52 on 13 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:ADAM and JOETTE- I figure it may have been the French comment that got him ousted. Good thing I'm a citizen or else I'd be ousted for the same damn thing. Gotta go watch the teen tournament of champions! - 0:35:25 on 13 Nov 97 GMT

RON...--->Steven...:Where in the world do you live? - 0:39:02 on 13 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:-->MARLENE..he hasn't been ousted yet. The two radio stations that carry him have the highest ratings in Canada now, so they will have lots to say about this! Teen tournament is too easy! - 0:41:29 on 13 Nov 97 GMT

RON...--->Joette...: 60 days in jail!! HA HA HA HA...well, I guess FOG was her judge alrighty. I'm not passing anything, btw. I'll protest and fight for every shred of anything. I AM SO ANGRY today. I'm taking Ms. Stephanie (first horrible blind date story) and her kids out for a movie Saturday. She turned out to be a VERY nice person. Fortunately, she's deeply in love with another person. We swapped "how do you get your love back in your life stories", very amusing. - 0:46:00 on 13 Nov 97 GMT

RON...--->Marlene...(you won't believe this one!)...: I have an appointment Saturday morning with a psychic. HA HA HA...this will be loads of fun. I'm going there to ask what my next 6 months will look like. - 0:50:49 on 13 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:-->RON...are these the plans of a desperate man or what????? What will you be going to see? Starship Troopers???? hahahaha Just funning with you...(I think I fell over the edge at some point this evening) - 0:58:38 on 13 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:JOETTE: I think that should be Close Encounters! Yes, I too am certifiable tonight. MARLENE: What's wrong with the French! - 1:07:30 on 13 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:-->ROB...Marlene has a date with Alex Trebek right now, so I will answer in part for her...come to Canada and then ask that same question! Let's just say there is as much love lost between Quebec and the rest of Canada as there is between Britain and Northern Ireland. - 1:10:31 on 13 Nov 97 GMT

whoops! - 1:11:39 on 13 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:JOETTE: I was being facetious. The English too are famous for hating the French! In general they're rude and smelly, but otherwise they're not that bad (well, they can make wine) - 1:14:27 on 13 Nov 97 GMT

Adam ABORTION ALLEY:Marlene & Joette: What would prevent a duly elected legislature from determining that the rights of the fetus to live at some point outweigh the mother's right to abort? In the U.S., it was a misguided (I feel) Supreme Court extension of the "right of privacy" that was first read into the Constitution in Griswold v. Connecticut (more on this anon). And Jo, are you saying that in Canada, if a brutally assault a nine-month-pregnant woman, causing the death of the fetus in utero, that I cannot be charged with homicide in Canada? - 1:19:31 on 13 Nov 97 GMT

Adam:See everyone ma�ana - 1:21:27 on 13 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:-->Hasta luego Adamo...that is correct...in Canada, you can do whatever you want with that baby while the mother is still pregnant and you will not be charged. A little while ago I discussed the case here in Canada where a woman shot herself up where the sun don't shine to kill her baby, which was at full term. It ended up putting her into labour, and the baby was born with a pellet in his brain, but the attempted murder brought against her was dropped, as that was the precedent that set the law that a fetus has no rights under the law of this great nation of ours. There was another challenge made, wherein a paint thinning agent addict was forced to get treatment while pregnant, and she went to court to fight it, and again, it was declared that the woman could not be forced into treatment as the fetus has no rights to be protected. - 1:28:21 on 13 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene...:JOETTE- Thankyou for the stand in. You were right, Alex was too easy. I also remained on the couch to watch the NAAAAAAnny! I was going to go into the abortion thing in a little more detail but then I thought naaaa..if someone doesn't understand my position, ask. RON- How much you paying that physic??? call 1800beth(middle name) and I'll tell you what you want to hear! ROB- I think Joette has relayed my bilingual feeling quite well. These francs can't even make wine! (only kids!) - 1:45:45 on 13 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene...yikes this things doesn't want to add, sorry if this post comes up twice!:JOETTE- Thankyou for the stand in. You were right, Alex was too easy. I also remained on the couch to watch the NAAAAAAnny! I was going to go into the abortion thing in a little more detail but then I thought naaaa..if someone doesn't understand my position, ask. RON- How much you paying that physic??? call 1800beth(middle name) and I'll tell you what you want to hear! ROB- I think Joette has relayed my bilingual feeling quite well. These francs can't even make wine! (only kids!) - 1:47:22 on 13 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:I just finished watching an interview with the 16 year-old teen that stabbed his mothere and shot and killed his former girlfriend as well as another student in a Mississippi high school. He claims he did this while under the influence of an older teen who told him that he had to make sacrifices to be someone. This older teen had convinced him and taught him that satanic spells and rituals were for a very special few. This kid, not being the hot guy in school felt quite insecure and fell for the satanic crap. The not-so-suprising factor here was the satan worshipping older teen's dad was a pastor. Isn't religion bullshit! - 3:43:44 on 13 Nov 97 GMT

Grant:Marlene-- But they can't see outside of their mythology. They think this Satan character hangs out with the nonreligious, but only xtians are susceptible. Convenient though. When they do something bad Satan is to blame. They are guilty only of weakness. - 6:08:15 on 13 Nov 97 GMT

Grant:Should have said "when in reality... only xtians are susceptible." - 6:11:54 on 13 Nov 97 GMT

PETER:--GRANT--Interesting point about Satan/atheism. I must concede that when I was a christian, I certainly thought the non-believer was dealing with the toils of Satan--as the faith implies. However, Satan has as much relevance to me ( as I'm sure he does to all atheists ) as do re-runs of the "Lawrence Welk Show" What I find offenive on behalf of the xtians, is this belief hat unless one goes along with their beliefs, they are equated to what they consider the symbol which is the embodiment of pure evil. I resent this. I resent it a lot. All it does is show to me that xtianity is the seeding ground for bigotry, the underlying source of hate, violence, wars. Love thy neighbour. Sure, as long as he believes in what you do. - 13:20:11 on 13 Nov 97 GMT

Grant:PETER-- I fully agree. My major gripe is with the belief system itself, which can't allow the possibility that another belief can possibly have validity. The Quake and Richard types can't examine another view at all without stepping outside the belief system, which they are unlikely to do, since they are convinced (by the BS) that the penalty is eternal damnation. The word 'insidious' comes to mind. - 13:43:54 on 13 Nov 97 GMT

RON...--->Joette...:yeah, Starship Troopers!!! I want to see that movie. - 13:44:39 on 13 Nov 97 GMT

RON...--->Peter...: Amazing how xtian religion considers none believers as low as, say a child molester. There are no increments of good or evil, you are either 100% good, or 100% evil. Without a real baseline there can be no room for judgement from one human to another. I'd rather be a Klingon than a mainstream xtian. - 13:57:14 on 13 Nov 97 GMT

RON...--->Marlene...:$65/hour. I'm letting my hair down and just going to have some fun. This person was referred to me by someone I trust... - 14:00:12 on 13 Nov 97 GMT

Steven:RON<<>>I live in Dallas Tx, home of the bible belt. From what I understand you reside in England.. For us to have a few Newcastles one of us would have to fly a long way. - 14:14:05 on 13 Nov 97 GMT

Steven:JOETTE<<>>are you being mean to me, my feelings are hurt (LOL)> - 14:14:48 on 13 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:STEVEN- It was my mistake, Ron lives near Houston. I thought that that was the area you were from, oh well same state! Rob lives in England. - 14:24:12 on 13 Nov 97 GMT

JOETTE<<>> - 14:24:33 on 13 Nov 97 GMT

Steven:MARLENE<<>> does RON really live in Houston. Heck that were most of my family live. Mabey when I am down there form mythmas we can meet up and have some beers. That would be cool! - 14:28:03 on 13 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:PETER and GRANT- This teen leader learned his persuasivness for his pastor dad. In order to get someone to believe in bullshit one has to be a master manipulator. This kid learned this from a pro, an xtian pastor. - 14:29:04 on 13 Nov 97 GMT

Steven:should be "that is where" - 14:29:38 on 13 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:STEVEN- Yes, I think it's a small town near there. I have his address but I don't know if he would apreciate me giving it out so best to email him at walker@flex.net. - 14:31:12 on 13 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:RON- $65!!!!! That's a little over $90 Canadian. Maybe I should set up a line and become Madame Manitoba. It should be fun though. I went to a famous physic here for a laugh years ago. She was fairly accurate. How? I'm not really sure but it likely could be explained.ALL- How about this topic for discussion??? - 14:37:36 on 13 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:Correction "psychic" - 14:54:03 on 13 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:MARLENE: Can I be the famous physic? I'll only charge $60 ;) Actually, I kind of got the wrong end of the stick with Ron's post. I was thinking if he wants to do that kind of thing then fine, but don't tell the whole internet- Ooops! Well I suppose if he's lucky, he might get his palm red LOL! - 15:07:11 on 13 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:Okay, we've all heard about the so-called immaculate conception but "immaculate abortion"? - 15:19:37 on 13 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:ROB- We'll channel in James Randi and take a crash course. These people are fun for the entertainment value. The trouble I see with them is that they become a "source of all knowledge" for many people. In the US psychic lines are numerous and people run up big telephone bills, some times putting them into financial trouble. For fun like Ron is doing is harmless but to tryly believe in this is costly. - 15:24:16 on 13 Nov 97 GMT

Steven:MARLENE<<>>but I thought Deon Warrwick and her psychic hotline was who to turn to for advice. - 15:33:27 on 13 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:STEVEN- Did you see the new one with Ester(the of the actresses from "Touched by an Angel")? This girl asks if her boyfriend truly loves her and ole Ester tells her yes. If this girl has to ask someone else where is her trust in the guy and besides that, how does Ester know if the guy "loves" lots of women, has 15 children and is gay to boot? - 15:45:46 on 13 Nov 97 GMT

Carl:MARLENE: goofy guys as the recent, now rare, visitors would read that then pray and offer their opinions as evidence of their preference. All that I think I see is an account of someone who did not want to be responsible for his action. The only difference between that guy and the Mississippi teen killer who heard satan instead the doc'well, his position in society is a bit loftier than some H.S.reject, so the doc.gets to involve a god in his version. But, in either the doc's or the teenkiller case, neither want to be responsible for their actions. This is a good god? - 15:46:37 on 13 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:CARL- Exactly! But who is it that promotes this belief in the scapegoats ie. god or satan? Most of society! So is religion a scapegoat for wrongdoing? - 16:00:17 on 13 Nov 97 GMT

RON...--->STEVEN...: I live in Spring, Texas now. I little closer to you than England. I know you Dallas people are very stuckup but, do you make your own maps too? (he he) MARLENE..yeah should be fun and I'll report my findings Saturday night. If I bring a fresh cassette, she will tape the session for me too. Want a copy? - 16:02:34 on 13 Nov 97 GMT

Steven:RON<<>>maps? hmmmph! RON I would agree with you that Dallas has a large amout of snoby people. Some of us punks like to call them the "fake tits and cocaine croud". This is the Dallas stereotype: Females have fake boobs, long neon painted fingernails, convertable bmw's, BIG HAIR: Mails have hair short and parted on the side, polo, dockers, hush puppie shoes, oakley sunglass's, porshe/bmw, etc... We usually call them CHEESE. Their is a song by a band called Primus named "sailing the seas of cheese" he was \ obviously singing of Dallas. Anyway, Mr Ron, Houston isn't any better. Houston, I might say is the armpit of Texas. It is humid and muggy and quite unbearable. The city has no planning and there is polution and garbage everywhere. I should know, I lived in Alief many years past. My extended family lives in a little town 1 hr southwest of houston called Sweeny. Anyway what is usual garb. I think the reactionary republicans call people of my age "generation x", whatever that means. - 16:20:47 on 13 Nov 97 GMT

Carl:MARLENE: I see of revelation, witness, and invocation things as all just to serve the same thing, who is in control? or perhaps a more pointed prefix should inquire of the relativity of the "amount" of control that one individual exercises in society. Doc's have control of some pretty important stuff, for example, and this assorted list goes on. Back when, kings and other royality also exercised control and back then as now, they don't really want to be responsible except, of course, when things go good! Is this the likely start of supreme beings way long ago, when the driest and warmest part of the cave was first set aside for the best hunter? I still can not see anything but manmade gods. - 16:33:52 on 13 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:RON- We will be waiting to hear all about it! We have the same types of people here too in the great white north. And STEVEN, a bunch of whining generation x'ers. Hope your not one of THEM! This generation has grown up in luxury compared to mine yet scream about the mess former generations have left them. If they'd only do something about it rather than throw temper tantrums then I could almost put up with they're whining! - 16:43:23 on 13 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:Yoi! Lots of spelling mistakes today, I won't even apologize, so ha! CARL- This doctor could be somewhat dangerous. He obviously makes medical choices based on his religion and not a patient's best interests, scary!, I wouldn't want him for my GP. - 16:46:48 on 13 Nov 97 GMT

Carl:MARLENE: I'll suppose that your favor/disfavorable views of such caretakers are determined by what such individuals may convey of knowledge? I find these kinds of people more to my liking, but I also think young minds are better than old minds. Old minds are like religion, nothing is new to it, how boring. - 17:31:51 on 13 Nov 97 GMT

Carl:OPEN: Anyone here personally know a "Promise Keeper"? I just did a netscape-search for that reference and lo! a list of their 'stuff' and unfortunately, I was not impressed. The things inscribed on the sites sure had the attributes of cupcake stuff but nothing substantive. So, who knows a PK type being? - 18:33:16 on 13 Nov 97 GMT

MARLENE, I think - 18:35:28 on 13 Nov 97 GMT

Steven:CARL<<>>I work with a Pker, his cubicle is directly in front of mine. The odd thing is this PKer is a very soft spoken and cordial individual. Unlike most of the ilk. - 18:37:07 on 13 Nov 97 GMT

Carl:STEVE: Well, they are interesting in a socialogical kinda'way. But, man! all that grovelin'an other stuff, very unwarrior-like. - 18:53:27 on 13 Nov 97 GMT

Steven:MARLENE, I don't think the Genxers are any different than any previous generations other than a couple of things. We have a hell of a lot more knowledge at an earlier age than any previous generations. We are a lot more outspoken about the things in which we believe. When GenXers come to power watch out all republican conservative christian jerk offs. Marijuana will be legalized, Church and State will eventually be seperate, Blue laws will be revolked, sodomy laws will be revolked, sexual preference laws will be revolked, etc... Basically we will clean up all the bs that previous generations have left for us. Believe this MARLENE, we have been left a sorry lot by generations such as the baby boomers. Is it out fault that previous gen's didn't know their ass from a hole in the ground. Is it out fault that baby boomers are fed by greed. I say no. Also, Marlene, for most of the children born in the last 20-30 years there is no job security to look forward to. There just are not as many options as people in the past have had. With overpopulation and technology advancing the way it is there is little or no hope left. The average to above average child is left out, while the few brilliant ones gain all the techno jobs, for that will be all that left in the future. I can not see it as whinning. Most of the people that I know that are my age or younger work just as hard as anyone the resources just are not availiable like they used to be. There are a lot more people contending for limited resources. This has not always been the case. Also we are going to have to responsible for the mess the previous greedy generations have left for us. Let me see, we have polution so thick you can barely see the sun, much less a star. All of our wild lands have been destroyed. There are millions of cars destroying the atmosphere etc... Do I need to go on MARLENE. The signs may not be as obvious on the polar ice cap which you live. - 18:54:48 on 13 Nov 97 GMT

Steven:CARL<<>> I agree, very unwarrior-like. - 19:00:01 on 13 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene..ha ha! Love it--:STEVEN - I knew I'd get a response on that one but not such a good one! Bravo! Believe me, pollution is very visible here with the acid rain etc. The question is, is when are you going to get really active with legalizing pot and getting rid of ridiculously outdated laws? You need to push the babyboomers like ole babyface Bill out and get someone much younger in office. I fail to understand why leaders of countries need to be so old. Good thing your not whining but doing! What's on your agenda at this time? Religion needs to go first IMO. Respect for the planet will come naturally once the myth of everlasting life is out of the way. - 19:10:51 on 13 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:STEVEN- Also, I wouldn't say we babybooomers were greedy. We wanted things much the same as any generation does but lacked the forethought on the consequenses of the waste mass production would cost. All this pollution is new to the "new world" and the blame is put on the babyboomers. This is not the case in Europe when the industial revolution began much earlier. ROB- What is generation X's position in Europe? - 19:16:47 on 13 Nov 97 GMT

Steven:MARLENE<<>>I think the religion thing will only be killed by education. It will take a long time, but it will eventually happen. There will however, always be people that need a religios security blanket. The cleaning up the planet is already started it seems, but the majority of people will not do anything until it effects them personally. In other words, until they are having to wear oxygen masks outside, and the uv rays from the sun are melting their skin. It seems that the majority of people only think in short term, what will effect them today, with no vision for the future of their children. This needs to change. Bill's problem is that he didn't inhale. MARLENE what the heck does IMO mean? - 19:21:17 on 13 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:CARL- There are a number of pk families in this area. It isn't in style to be forceful (like Quake), the style is the strong silent type but once one is attracted, they are not so silent about their god and his place in EVERYONE'S life. - 19:21:23 on 13 Nov 97 GMT

Steven:MARLENE<<>> I am not blaming the baby boomers. It started long before that. The problem I have with baby boomers is the talked and preached of change, but did nothing but talk. There was no action, except a few pep rallies in D.C.. Flower power and Free Love, i like the concept but it didn't work. - 19:23:55 on 13 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:STEVEN - It's net language something like LOL (which I didn't know until Joette told me). IMO is in my opinion but must people write IMHO-in my humble opinion. I have a problem with "humble". Your correct. This IS the problem with humanity in general and not to be blamed on former or present generations, it's long-term thinking. - 19:25:21 on 13 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene..we did accomplish some things:STEVEN- I'm 47 and was raised by my great aunt and uncle because my natural mom became pregnant while attending college. Of course there was the hellabaloo of my aunt "pretending" she was pregnant and my "poor mom" being taken advantage of by my natural dad. Bunch of crap as far as I was concerned! We did speak out in the 60's about the ridiculous taboos that our parents generation held and today mom's keep their children if they choose to and are not shunned by society for doing so but in fact respected. We changed some things. I don't think you have any idea how much. The farce of my aunt pretending she was pregnant and my mom pretending she wasn't didn't fool too many and in our small town everyone knew. Because of older beliefs some kids were not allowed to play with me. I'm glad this is not the case today. - 19:34:04 on 13 Nov 97 GMT

Adam THAT SUX, BABY:Joette: OK. I understand the no-right fetus thing; it's an extension of English common law. However, in the U.S., most if not all states that retain the C.L. principle have added, in this century, a lesser-degree offense of involuntary termination of pregnancy (or similar language), which usually appears way down low in the homicide chain (you know, Murder 1-2-3; Manslaughter 1-2; Negligent Homicide, etc.) in the penal code. Have the provinces no equivalent? I'd find that disconcerting. - 19:53:08 on 13 Nov 97 GMT

Adam MATERNAL INSTINCTS:Marlene: My question, more specifically, is this: If your provincial legislature was to ban or severely restrict abortion, do you (or do you feel you should) have any recourse other than to vote in a new legislature to repeal that act? If you feel there is other recourse (probably the courts), on what basis can they overturn the law? Can it be found "unconstitutional" in Canada? I won't be coy about my point (although I'm interested in these answers independently of that point)---without regard to how I feel about the abortion decision, I believe that Roe v. Wade, a 1973 U.S. Supreme Court decision overturning a Texas abortion restriction (and which routinely is misidentified in the press as "the decision that LEGALIZED abortion"), was a horrendous piece of legal reasoning for any number of reasons. So I ask whether anything other than public pressure can be brought to bear to prevent or overrule abortion restrictions. - 20:03:08 on 13 Nov 97 GMT

Steven:MARLENE, i to was born out of wedlock. It was the scandal of the day for my mother and father. They ended up gettin married though and still are. All of the old taboos still existed at that time and my it caused turmoil in the family, how friggin stupid. Anyway, the funny thing is, my parents didn't even tell me or admit to me what had happened until I was 25 because the were scared that I would be upset, give me a break. All through childhood they would not even admit that they had sex before marriage, as a matter of fact they lied and said they never had sex until they were married. This once again is the christian religion at fault. My parents believed that they could save their children from sin, so they lied to us to attempt to prevent us from having sex before marriage, christianity is evil. They still consider sex a dirty and bad thing, I feel sorry for them. - 20:05:54 on 13 Nov 97 GMT

Adam In Defense of the 'D':Steven: Although I acknowledge your stereotype of Dallasites, I wish to point out from personal experience that it is just that---a stereotype. Like most others, it is rooted in factual observations but unfairly sweeps with a broad brush. I have met some of the most wonderful people in Dallas, including my ex/very close friend. Perhaps you should narrow your characterization to Highland Park and similar neighborhoods. - 20:08:52 on 13 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:ADAM- The laws have so far here been legislated that a fetus is not a person. There is a law in New Brunswick(provincial) that protects the "life" of a fetus and Alberta is now looking at the same legislation. Our supreme court upheld the case of the the sniff mother in Manitoba here, stating that the mother could not be forced into treatment as the fetus is not considered a person. So in effect our supreme court is now forcing provinces to legislate. No one wants to handle hot potato! IMO, the legislation should define what is life. It's a fairly staightforward medical fact so therefore shouldn't be hard to put in place. I agree that if the pregnacy will result in a full term decision then yes, I believe that fetus should be protected from the time it is considered life. If anyone has ever seen children born to addicts then I can only assume that they would agree. But then comes the question, to what extent is protection considered. For example- If a woman drinks one glass of wine per day, is she harming the fetus? This could be a whole other can of worms! - 20:20:42 on 13 Nov 97 GMT

Steven:ADAM, I have lived in the big 'D for to damn long. I would say at least 15yrs. This city is not that great. It is flat, meaning one slight declining hill in the entire city, I'm serious. The trees have all been land cleared for houseing divisions and business buildings. 90% of the population in Dallas are christians, hence the blue laws, church on half of the radio stations etc... If your not dealing with yuppies from HP, your dealing with yuppies from Plano, North Dallas, Richardson, McKinney etc... Of course you can always go over to South Oak Cliff and walk about, but I wouldn't suggest it without body armor and an uzi. If you go outside of these yuppie capitals you move into the hick, redneck, country fuck, hillbilly, ketchup eating, belt buckle wearing, 10 gallon hat haveing, boot wearing, goat roaping, cow munchen, dip snuffing suberbs such as Mesquite, Garland, Carollton etc... There are a few cool people that live here, and you will find them in Lakewood or Deep Ellum. I may be stereotypeing (which I am) but if you couldn't tell I am sick of this place. My heart lives in Austin Tx. Good Music, Good Beer, laid back people, punks, and 50,000 college kids. I guess it's either Austin or Boulder Co. that would be my place of choice. Unfortunatly i have to many damn roots in Dallas and it is hard to uproot and move, especially when the job that is paying your bills is here. At least Dallas has some good skate parks, and good bands such as Janes Addiction lower their pride and come through Dallas. i - 20:25:12 on 13 Nov 97 GMT

Carl:STEVE: wedlock? illegal reproduction? chasity belts? These things, what are they? I don't rut with the other young bucks anymore but I am pretty sure I would be as pleased as any could be to meet someone who says I was their father. But, then I have also owned up that I am utterly godless and I ought to add, if i worshipped anything, it is the beauty of a female. - 20:27:17 on 13 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene, they can bite me!:STEVEN- My mom, to this day hides from the fact although my half-brother's wife makes this difficult for her. For me as a child, I was hurt but I didn't understand until I was much older. By that time the hurt had gone from anger to acceptance and finally to definance. I was the first one divorced in that shitty little town and braved through it quite well. The hard lessons can either make us more bitter or give us more strength. I am a strong person and when I see shit I say so, very much unlike my mom. I think I was taught to feel guilty since I was able to understand, I had enough of it and grew. I hope your mom and dad can overcome some of these stupid morals, yes xtian morals, that no longer have any bite. - 20:29:05 on 13 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:STEVEN- YIKES! Texas sounds just like the King of the Hill program! Actually I've been through the pan-handle in Texas and I did find it somewhat "backward?". But then again I've been to a lot of small towns in the US including one in Ohio that has a whites only and blacks only cafes. Jim and I thought we had entered the twilight zone when we arrived in that town! CARL- Strange ideas, strange times. I'm glad we moved beyond them! As long as we don't revert! Have you ever read a book by Margret Atwood called _A Handmaid's Tale_. It is a frightening possiblity if the fundie's continue to grow in numbers! - 20:37:27 on 13 Nov 97 GMT

Yes I am a Christian:Steven-->I have to disagree with your gen-x oppinion. For one I would like to note that "X" usually refers to Christ. (X-mas, Xians). Ironic isn't it. But also, Chrisitianity is growing at a rapid rate ECPECIALLY in gen-x. For instance the fastest growing place for Christianity is college campuses! Interesting huh. One other thing...Gen-xers have been able to vote for about 10 years now, and Republicans have got more power in the last ten years than ever! - 20:39:21 on 13 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene X stands for x'ers YIC for xtians:STEVEN- Isn't that a scary prospect! YIC- (above), is right. Pretty yic-ki if you ask me. Of course this is the non-thinking clic of your generation but somewhat visible. Makes you want to work a little harder to eradicate xtianity, no? Come on Steve, go for governor of the bible belt and make the difference that we boomers didn't succeed to do! - 20:55:10 on 13 Nov 97 GMT

Carl:"X"TIAN: Obviously, you have credible unbiased reports for your claims of a christian uprising and something not the typical explanation for the republican switch in the past few years, perhaps an account of a "new" poly-sci phenomonen. Seems like the "more power than ever" quote has regularly switched over the years. Anyway, reports here say church attendance is down and they are being closed for that very reason!! So, please since you being "X"tian an all, please "feel" free to share with me at least, your source of information, hope it is not Nostradamus. - 20:58:10 on 13 Nov 97 GMT

Steven:CHRISTIAN<<>> From what sheep did you get your statistics from. Once again another brainwashed christian, and republican to boot. Are you a member of the Clan or what. I would disagree with everything you have said. For one thing I am a Genxer are you? Every person that I know rejects and despises your piss poor excuse for mythology. Republicans are nothing short of glorified Nazi's. Mabey you can explain to me why only 2% of the world believe in your mythology. By the way, if your jesus does exist then ask him down here, I badly need a good blow job. If you have talked to the jesus give him my #, and tell him I gonna kick his ass. Your god does not exist jerk. Repub's will not always be in power. By the way, their is not one damn diff. between a republican and a democrat, their both politicians, and politicians by nature are scum. Does it suprise you that most politicians in this country the Empire of the US of fucking A are christians. - 21:03:05 on 13 Nov 97 GMT

Carl:MARLENE: No i have not read that book. Is it a recent publication? I ask because that will aid in guiding me to a likely bookstore and there, well, it might get recollected and picked up. - 21:04:56 on 13 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:CARL- No actually it's by a Canadian author and it was written in 1985. The proper spelling of the writters name is Margaret Atwood. If you've read Orwell's 1984, this is similiar only it has to do with religion. It's a fiction. - 21:25:18 on 13 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:CARL- I forgot to give you the proper spelling of the book too. The Handmaid's Tale. There was a movie made of it but the movie was the shits. As almost always Hollywood destroyed the main intent of the book. - 21:28:38 on 13 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:STEVEN- I tend to agree with you, most politicians are only there for the fame and fortune but every once in awhile one comes along that makes a difference. I'm really surprised that Dole was choosen as the Republican leader. The guy looks like a used car salesman but then again Clinton looks like an insurance salesman. I kind of liked Ross, myself. He really was a salesman! - 21:34:06 on 13 Nov 97 GMT

Carl:MARLENE: I'll keep an eye out for that book, about the YIC, it is quite likely, that individual is a youngster. if so, then back to my earlier post o'young minds, well this is an example of one that needs some tillin'work, some fertiliser[some real pasture pie stuff], then we'd do a waitn'see - 21:52:11 on 13 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene...must be the farmer in me:CARL- I don't know, the comment about "voting for the past ten years" has me thinking this YIC is around the 30 mark. Maybe "miracle grow", huh? - 22:21:41 on 13 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene..what do you think?:ALL, I think I like "YIC" better than I like the term, xtian. YIC-yes, I'm christian.....I like it! - 22:23:56 on 13 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene into 'y's:Think of the fun we can have with that one like " oh-oh the yics are yakking" or "someone put a yoke on that yic". - 22:26:25 on 13 Nov 97 GMT

Adam You've Come a long way, baby!:Marlene: Because the abortion decision is such a personal matter, I agree that the best way to address it by government is by statute. That way, it most likely reflects the will of the people, and can readily be changed. I disagree, however, that legislation becomes easy on the basis of the "fairly staightforward medical fact" of when life begins. I would assert that all sorts of MDs, philosophers, microbiologists and specialists from umpteen other fields (dare I mention clerics?) could come to fisticuffs over the issue. I'm still not clear, though; can the courts find legislation unconstitutional (that is, does Canada rely on a bare-bones U.S. style set of principles that leaves much room for interpretation, or a legislatively dominant UK-style power held in check only by the traditions of the populace, or something in between?) - 22:51:18 on 13 Nov 97 GMT

Adam D-fense (Cont'd):Lone Star Steven: I have lived in Dallas myself, and have friends and relatives there whom I visit often, so I don't need a description. I think your bias comes from the fact that you're so fond of Austin (a place I enjoy as well). Please understand that Austin is a bizarre place for Texas, in terms of topography, the presence of UT, the rise of the 6th St. crowd, etc. (It's also the home of American Atheists and the Ice Bats). Now, I'm a New Yorker, and I couldn't imagine a permanent relocation elsewhere, because I would miss the pulse and grit of the place, and the 24-hour subway network. But other places need to be taken on their own merits; if I was constantly to compare every aspect of Dallas and New York, my bias would cause me to find Dallas sorely lacking. If you start with the understanding that a large city has no business being where Dallas is---it was merely a railroad crossing---you can come to terms that the city constantly cries out for metropolitan legitimacy, and that goes for everything from the gaudy old-money neighborhoods, to an aire of phoneyness or pretense on the part of many Dallasites from an outsiders' perspective, to the unnecessary construction of the best collection of post-modern architecture in the U.S., if not the world, including such curiosities as the indulgent high-tech symphony hall and the woefully out-of-place upside-down I.M. Pei City Hall. If you are THAT disgusted with it, maybe you really should look to change jobs. Otherwise, I say call it weird, and vive la difference! - 23:05:05 on 13 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:ADAM- Your right on defining "life". Yes, I would imagine the courts could find the legislation unconsitutional but then again, maybe not. I'm not sure on this. We'll ask JOETTE or PETER (where-ever she may be or he may be). Since the fetus is protected in New Brunswick would a woman from that state win the case as the woman from Winnipeg did? I really think our law requires the constituion to be changed in order to effect the law. I'd never make a lawyer! I'm decided on when the fetus actually becomes a life. I don't feel the fetus should be considered life until after the first trimester. Then after that, if the life of the mother is in danger then the fetus should be aborted but an attempt could be made to bring the fetus to term if it is developed enough. - 23:09:46 on 13 Nov 97 GMT

Adam FOOL on the "Hill":Marlene: Actually, "King" was meant to depict (and make fun of) smaller-town life in Texas, although it translates to other parts of the country. When I went to Houston for the Mets-Astros series, many families in our hotel were in from the boonies to see the Astros and go to neighboring Astroland amusement park, and I'll tell you, the place was CRAWLING with kids that look and sound just like Bobby. - 23:10:45 on 13 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:ADAM- How about sweet little brainless things like Lu-anne? We have neighbors that have a Bobby! - 23:15:46 on 13 Nov 97 GMT

Adam Gee, Opie!:As a Republican who renounces the moral right, I would like to opine (and I dare say that I am correct) that the rise of the GOP can be more attributed to (a) the personal allure of Reagan; (b) the general recognition of the failure of the Great Society and liberal policies more generally; and (c) natural periodic swings in the American electorate, than any so-called growth of religion or Christianity more generally. - 23:16:00 on 13 Nov 97 GMT

Adam More on Gee, Opie:I just got to STEVEN'S diatribe on the Republicans, and offer that his (yet another) blanket description is evidencing him as little more than a narrow-minded bigot. It is one thing to say that all belief in mythology is ignorance and quite another to attack every single member of a dfeliberately broad-based coalition political party. I have no doubt that there are any number of Democrats, liberals and Austinites with whom he would not wish to be associated. - 23:21:18 on 13 Nov 97 GMT

Adam:I thought kicking Jesus' ass was my shtick. - 23:27:57 on 13 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene..in love with millionares:ADAM- What's wrong with Ross? - 23:33:13 on 13 Nov 97 GMT

Adam Redux to Dallas:Oh, and Steve, if any trees were "removed" for housing complexes, they were not indiginous to begin with---Dallas is on a prairie. I would suggest that many of the housing units in Dallas ADD greenery to spruce up the landscape. - 23:33:27 on 13 Nov 97 GMT

Carl:LIFE?: If addressed in this open ended manner, it invites any and all to general warfare. Big Apple Adam mentions a few sorts that probably always have to bring their guns. And for their assorted venues, interests, they are probably right, except YIC types whose ignorance precludes any participation[except if they drop the myth and superstition stuff], but MARLENE may have a point. Let it be an act of legislation. In the USA where gov't is secular, not god-given, and by the people for the people stuff, a knowledgable means could be ascertained. The question of course what and when is a thing a human specific? Life, ought to be left as a general question. - 23:42:03 on 13 Nov 97 GMT

Adam What Are You Made of?:Marlene: I agree that the pro-life or pro-choice forces must actually amend the US Constitution for that document to legitimize either viewpoint. My exact point is that the U.S. Constitution speaks NOTHING on the subject, NECESSARILY leaving it either to Congress (if abortion can be cast within one of its enumerated powers, which is very likely) or the hodgepodge of state legislatures. Of course, as you said, most legislators would rather not stick their necks out either way, and the remainder usually cannot constitute a majority for either side. Is this good? No. But the Constitution requires it. My problem with Roe is that Justice Blackmun super-legislated by interpreting several amendments as combining to prevent a state legislature from coming down on the side of the fetus, and that was improper (I have other problems with his opinion as well). I would indeed be interested to find out what provisions of the Canuckistution bear (no joke intended but I'll take 'em where they fall) on the issue. - 23:43:01 on 13 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:HUMMMM...Just finished watching some of the news, a very quick look at the religion channel and reading an article on the recent friendship between the vactian and Yahoo. Ole Pat is finishing off a prayer virgil for all those poor persecuted xtians in the world. Asking the US to not support nations that persecute xtians. Guess who the bad boys are? None other than the islamic nations, of course they threw China in there too. All of a sudden xtians and jews are friends? Sounds awful politcal to me! I do like the stand that the Arab nations have taken against any bombings in the Middle East. There were horror stories about babies dying in hospitals in Kuwait when Saddam's armies invaded. This is horrible but how many babies died in Bagdad hospitals due to American missile attacks. My concern as is likely most Middle-Easterners concerns are the biological and chemical weapons Saddam will rain on many parts of the Middle East. The guy is a nut and capable of almost anything. - 23:58:16 on 13 Nov 97 GMT

Adam Let Mikey Legislate-He Hates Everything:Carl & Marl: In the ongoing debate over abortion, both the pro-lifers who say that life, and commensurate rights, begin at conception; and pro-choicers who define the abortion debate as nothing more than a woman's struggle against government intruision; have tipped the playing field so far in their respective favors as to forclose debate. The truth likely lies in between, at a different point for each person. How, then, can a legislature address this when government MUST draw lines somewhere? - 23:59:08 on 13 Nov 97 GMT

Carl:MARLENE: The ugly american backs the jewish thing because it allows the usa to stay close to arab oil. China, just PR stuff. Death of people, just overhead, the usa wants that oil. - 0:02:38 on 14 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:ADAM- I have to go out shortly but I will look up the legalities tomorrow and try my best to relate them. I still think it is important to define what "life" is no matter what the uproar. Only then will the law be clear! We can see that not considering the fetus life right up to birth is down right cruel. Why should babies be born with defects they wouldn't have had if mom was not an addict. - 0:05:39 on 14 Nov 97 GMT

Adam On Nuts:Marlene: I think Perot is a demagoguic looney. And if a combatant puts innocents in harm's way by placing strategically valuable targets near them, their incidental deaths are the fault of that combatant. - 0:06:44 on 14 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:In Canada, many parts of our legislation have been written, bills passed and then found to be unconstitutional, and all citizens have the right to take the government to court to fight constitutionality. For instance, just as a tiny example, a woman in a nearby town to where I live decided to doff her shirt on a very hot summer day. The local puritans were outraged, and she was immediately arrested and charged with public indecency. She fought her case all the way to the Supreme Court, charging that it is blatantly discriminatory for a man to be allowed to go topless in public, but not a woman. Well, fortunately for those of us with exhibitionist tendencies, all women are allowed to go topless whenever, and wherever, men are allowed to do the same thing. Everyday, various bits and pieces of our consitution and charter or rights and freedoms are being challenged, and so when a bill is passed in legislature, it usually isn't worth the paper it is written on. Therefore, before any bill is introduced, public forums are presented, where any citizen is allowed to give their input, so as to avoid any possible legal action in the future. Mind you, when bills are passed, the supreme court upholds its legality, and the public are outraged, the particular party in power is usually ousted at the next election, and then the whole process begins again. If nothing else, I find that we do have a great deal of democracy here, provided people are aware of their right to question, and fight against, what is not to their particular liking. Does this make sense? - 1:41:01 on 14 Nov 97 GMT

Adam LONG TIME NO POST:Look at that gap! As soon as I finish faxing out the weekly football pool, I'm outa here! - 1:43:14 on 14 Nov 97 GMT

Sorry...that last posted was meant to be addressed to "all my exes live in Texas" ADAM - 1:44:40 on 14 Nov 97 GMT

-->but I guess it was too late :( - 1:56:10 on 14 Nov 97 GMT

Adam Adoption of Identity is the Sincerest Form of Flatulence:That apologetic post in my name was NOT from me. Oh, sure everyone wants to BE me up, Scotty. - 2:01:07 on 14 Nov 97 GMT

Adam POWER SOURCE:Jo: on what basis are things declared unconstitutional? Do you have the equiv. of a bill of rights? WHen the law was declared discriminatory, what language in the constitution (if it is a unified document) was breached (another unintended but apparently instinctive abortion pun)? - 2:05:43 on 14 Nov 97 GMT

Adam NYTOL:I'm out. Will pick up posts ma�ana, and then not until 24 Nov. ALL POSTS AFTER THIS TONIGHT IN MY NAME ARE FROM SOMEONE WHO ENVIES ME. Could it be god? - 2:08:25 on 14 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:-->ADAM...no one was trying to be you...I had meant to address that long post to you, and then sent the other one thinking no one was on line, but your post about the football pool came in right between the two. I don't think anyone else will be using your name in vain. - 2:37:09 on 14 Nov 97 GMT

RICHARD:Abortion is murder, those who commit abortion also abort their emotions at the same time. The chamber for life/procreation has become the chamber of death ! The Nazis would be pleased, for it is an improvement on their gas chamber. - 5:39:27 on 14 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- Thankyou! Now I don't need to look up all that stuff tomorrow. I think your right when it comes to people having the right to bring something to the Supreme Court but the hassle and the costs are prohibitive to many people. The sniff mom had legal aid. It shouldn't have to cost and arm and a leg to take a case to the highest court. Good night atheists! - 5:44:05 on 14 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:I think I smell a YIC! - 5:46:42 on 14 Nov 97 GMT

Kalin:Richard: women have abortions either for health reasons or because they don't want the baby. Leave the health reasons aside for the time being and concentrate on the second reason: would you just have one dead, unborn fetus, or would you rather (as you seem to favor) have a mother with an unwanted child, thus most probably destroying two lives, instead of just one? - 6:46:39 on 14 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:-->KALIN...welcome! Richard will not anwser your questions, but your point is a good one. Richard's post also smacks of the control some in society believe they have over another's life. - 11:41:42 on 14 Nov 97 GMT

PETER:--.."right -to-lifers"...bah!!!Thatwhich lives inside he body of another can claim no pregotatrives from its host. To deny abortion is an unspeakable violation to the individual right against the woman. The term "Right-to-Lifers" is actually a perversion of language. To the woman they deny her right to liberty,( to the functions of her body ), her right to the pursuit of happiness,---and sometimes even the right to life itself--even as a serf.Such a sentence represents the sacrifice of the ACTUAL to the POTENTIAL, of a human being to a piece of protoplasm, whichhas no life in the human sense of the term. The twisted mind of a fundie--their repeated inability to grasp the concept of "individual rights"( which is actually a redundant term )--adds fuel to aconflict which shouldn't even exist in the first place. If I was able to damn anyone--its the alleged "right-to-lifers". What a perverted joke. - 12:00:37 on 14 Nov 97 GMT

.:PETER:--.."right -to-lifers"...bah!!!Thatwhich lives inside he body of another can claim no pregotatrives from its host. To deny abortion is an unspeakable violation to the individual right against the woman. The term "Right-to-Lifers" is actually a perversion of language. To the woman they deny her right to liberty,( to the functions of her body ), her right to the pursuit of happiness,---and sometimes even the right to life itself--even as a serf.Such a sentence represents the sacrifice of the ACTUAL to the POTENTIAL, of a human being to a piece of protoplasm, whichhas no life in the human sense of the term. The twisted mind of a fundie--their repeated inability to grasp the concept of "individual rights"( which is actually a redundant term )--adds fuel to aconflict which shouldn't even exist in the first place. If I was able to damn anyone--its the alleged "right-to-lifers". What a perverted joke. - 12:00:37 on 14 Nov 97 GMT .:PETER:--.."right -to-lifers"...bah!!!Thatwhich lives inside he body of another can claim no pregotatrives from its host. To deny abortion is an unspeakable violation to the individual right against the woman. The term "Right-to-Lifers" is actually a perversion of language. To the woman they deny her right to liberty,( to the functions of her body ), her right to the pursuit of happiness,---and sometimes even the right to life itself--even as a serf.Such a sentence represents the sacrifice of the ACTUAL to the POTENTIAL, of a human being to a piece of protoplasm, whichhas no life in the human sense of the term. The twisted mind of a fundie--their repeated inability to grasp the concept of "individual rights"( which is actually a redundant term )--adds fuel to aconflict which shouldn't even exist in the first place. If I was able to damn anyone--its the alleged "right-to-lifers". What a perverted joke. - 12:00:37 on 14 Nov 97 GMT - 12:11:02 on 14 Nov 97 GMT .:PETER:--.."right -to-lifers"...bah!!!Thatwhich lives inside he body of another can claim no pregotatrives from its host. To deny abortion is an unspeakable violation to the individual right against the woman. The term "Right-to-Lifers" is actually a perversion of language. To the woman they deny her right to liberty,( to the functions of her body ), her right to the pursuit of happiness,---and sometimes even the right to life itself--even as a serf.Such a sentence represents the sacrifice of the ACTUAL to the POTENTIAL, of a human being to a piece of protoplasm, whichhas no life in the human sense of the term. The twisted mind of a fundie--their repeated inability to grasp the concept of "individual rights"( which is actually a redundant term )--adds fuel to aconflict which shouldn't even exist in the first place. If I was able to damn anyone--its the alleged "right-to-lifers". What a perverted joke. - 12:00:37 on 14 Nov 97 GMT .:PETER:--.."right -to-lifers"...bah!!!Thatwhich lives inside he body of another can claim no pregotatrives from its host. To deny abortion is an unspeakable violation to the individual right against the woman. The term "Right-to-Lifers" is actually a perversion of language. To the woman they deny her right to liberty,( to the functions of her body ), her right to the pursuit of happiness,---and sometimes even the right to life itself--even as a serf.Such a sentence represents the sacrifice of the ACTUAL to the POTENTIAL, of a human being to a piece of protoplasm, whichhas no life in the human sense of the term. The twisted mind of a fundie--their repeated inability to grasp the concept of "individual rights"( which is actually a redundant term )--adds fuel to aconflict which shouldn't even exist in the first place. If I was able to damn anyone--its the alleged "right-to-lifers". What a perverted joke. - 12:00:37 on 14 Nov 97 GMT - 12:11:02 on 14 Nov 97 GMT - 12:11:34 on 14 Nov 97 GMT .:PETER:--.."right -to-lifers"...bah!!!Thatwhich lives inside he body of another can claim no pregotatrives from its host. To deny abortion is an unspeakable violation to the individual right against the woman. The term "Right-to-Lifers" is actually a perversion of language. To the woman they deny her right to liberty,( to the functions of her body ), her right to the pursuit of happiness,---and sometimes even the right to life itself--even as a serf.Such a sentence represents the sacrifice of the ACTUAL to the POTENTIAL, of a human being to a piece of protoplasm, whichhas no life in the human sense of the term. The twisted mind of a fundie--their repeated inability to grasp the concept of "individual rights"( which is actually a redundant term )--adds fuel to aconflict which shouldn't even exist in the first place. If I was able to damn anyone--its the alleged "right-to-lifers". What a perverted joke. - 12:00:37 on 14 Nov 97 GMT .:PETER:--.."right -to-lifers"...bah!!!Thatwhich lives inside he body of another can claim no pregotatrives from its host. To deny abortion is an unspeakable violation to the individual right against the woman. The term "Right-to-Lifers" is actually a perversion of language. To the woman they deny her right to liberty,( to the functions of her body ), her right to the pursuit of happiness,---and sometimes even the right to life itself--even as a serf.Such a sentence represents the sacrifice of the ACTUAL to the POTENTIAL, of a human being to a piece of protoplasm, whichhas no life in the human sense of the term. The twisted mind of a fundie--their repeated inability to grasp the concept of "individual rights"( which is actually a redundant term )--adds fuel to aconflict which shouldn't even exist in the first place. If I was able to damn anyone--its the alleged "right-to-lifers". What a perverted joke. - 12:00:37 on 14 Nov 97 GMT - 12:11:02 on 14 Nov 97 GMT .:PETER:--.."right -to-lifers"...bah!!!Thatwhich lives inside he body of another can claim no pregotatrives from its host. To deny abortion is an unspeakable violation to the individual right against the woman. The term "Right-to-Lifers" is actually a perversion of language. To the woman they deny her right to liberty,( to the functions of her body ), her right to the pursuit of happiness,---and sometimes even the right to life itself--even as a serf.Such a sentence represents the sacrifice of the ACTUAL to the POTENTIAL, of a human being to a piece of protoplasm, whichhas no life in the human sense of the term. The twisted mind of a fundie--their repeated inability to grasp the concept of "individual rights"( which is actually a redundant term )--adds fuel to aconflict which shouldn't even exist in the first place. If I was able to damn anyone--its the alleged "right-to-lifers". What a perverted joke. - 12:00:37 on 14 Nov 97 GMT .:PETER:--.."right -to-lifers"...bah!!!Thatwhich lives inside he body of another can claim no pregotatrives from its host. To deny abortion is an unspeakable violation to the individual right against the woman. The term "Right-to-Lifers" is actually a perversion of language. To the woman they deny her right to liberty,( to the functions of her body ), her right to the pursuit of happiness,---and sometimes even the right to life itself--even as a serf.Such a sentence represents the sacrifice of the ACTUAL to the POTENTIAL, of a human being to a piece of protoplasm, whichhas no life in the human sense of the term. The twisted mind of a fundie--their repeated inability to grasp the concept of "individual rights"( which is actually a redundant term )--adds fuel to aconflict which shouldn't even exist in the first place. If I was able to damn anyone--its the alleged "right-to-lifers". What a perverted joke. - 12:00:37 on 14 Nov 97 GMT - 12:11:02 on 14 Nov 97 GMT - 12:11:34 on 14 Nov 97 GMT - 12:12:11 on 14 Nov 97 GMT .:.:PETER:--.."right -to-lifers"...bah!!!Thatwhich lives inside he body of another can claim no pregotatrives from its host. To deny abortion is an unspeakable violation to the individual right against the woman. The term "Right-to-Lifers" is actually a perversion of language. To the woman they deny her right to liberty,( to the functions of her body ), her right to the pursuit of happiness,---and sometimes even the right to life itself--even as a serf.Such a sentence represents the sacrifice of the ACTUAL to the POTENTIAL, of a human being to a piece of protoplasm, whichhas no life in the human sense of the term. The twisted mind of a fundie--their repeated inability to grasp the concept of "individual rights"( which is actually a redundant term )--adds fuel to aconflict which shouldn't even exist in the first place. If I was able to damn anyone--its the alleged "right-to-lifers". What a perverted joke. - 12:00:37 on 14 Nov 97 GMT - 12:11:02 on 14 Nov 97 GMT .:PETER:--.."right -to-lifers"...bah!!!Thatwhich lives inside he body of another can claim no pregotatrives from its host. To deny abortion is an unspeakable violation to the individual right against the woman. The term "Right-to-Lifers" is actually a perversion of language. To the woman they deny her right to liberty,( to the functions of her body ), her right to the pursuit of happiness,---and sometimes even the right to life itself--even as a serf.Such a sentence represents the sacrifice of the ACTUAL to the POTENTIAL, of a human being to a piece of protoplasm, whichhas no life in the human sense of the term. The twisted mind of a fundie--their repeated inability to grasp the concept of "individual rights"( which is actually a redundant term )--adds fuel to aconflict which shouldn't even exist in the first place. If I was able to damn anyone--its the alleged "right-to-lifers". What a perverted joke. - 12:00:37 on 14 Nov 97 GMT .:PETER:--.."right -to-lifers"...bah!!!Thatwhich lives inside he body of another can claim no pregotatrives from its host. To deny abortion is an unspeakable violation to the individual right against the woman. The term "Right-to-Lifers" is actually a perversion of language. To the woman they deny her right to liberty,( to the functions of her body ), her right to the pursuit of happiness,---and sometimes even the right to life itself--even as a serf.Such a sentence represents the sacrifice of the ACTUAL to the POTENTIAL, of a human being to a piece of protoplasm, whichhas no life in the human sense of the term. The twisted mind of a fundie--their repeated inability to grasp the concept of "individual rights"( which is actually a redundant term )--adds fuel to aconflict which shouldn't even exist in the first place. If I was able to damn anyone--its the alleged "right-to-lifers". What a perverted joke. - 12:00:37 on 14 Nov 97 GMT - 12:11:02 on 14 Nov 97 GMT - 12:11:34 on 14 Nov 97 GMT .:PETER:--.."right -to-lifers"...bah!!!Thatwhich lives inside he body of another can claim no pregotatrives from its host. To deny abortion is an unspeakable violation to the individual right against the woman. The term "Right-to-Lifers" is actually a perversion of language. To the woman they deny her right to liberty,( to the functions of her body ), her right to the pursuit of happiness,---and sometimes even the right to life itself--even as a serf.Such a sentence represents the sacrifice of the ACTUAL to the POTENTIAL, of a human being to a piece of protoplasm, whichhas no life in the human sense of the term. The twisted mind of a fundie--their repeated inability to grasp the concept of "individual rights"( which is actually a redundant term )--adds fuel to aconflict which shouldn't even exist in the first place. If I was able to damn anyone--its the alleged "right-to-lifers". What a perverted joke. - 12:00:37 on 14 Nov 97 GMT .:PETER:--.."right -to-lifers"...bah!!!Thatwhich lives inside he body of another can claim no pregotatrives from its host. To deny abortion is an unspeakable violation to the individual right against the woman. The term "Right-to-Lifers" is actually a perversion of language. To the woman they deny her right to liberty,( to the functions of her body ), her right to the pursuit of happiness,---and sometimes even the right to life itself--even as a serf.Such a sentence represents the sacrifice of the ACTUAL to the POTENTIAL, of a human being to a piece of protoplasm, whichhas no life in the human sense of the term. The twisted mind of a fundie--their repeated inability to grasp the concept of "individual rights"( which is actually a redundant term )--adds fuel to aconflict which shouldn't even exist in the first place. If I was able to damn anyone--its the alleged "right-to-lifers". What a perverted joke. - 12:00:37 on 14 Nov 97 GMT - 12:11:02 on 14 Nov 97 GMT .:PETER:--.."right -to-lifers"...bah!!!Thatwhich lives inside he body of another can claim no pregotatrives from its host. To deny abortion is an unspeakable violation to the individual right against the woman. The term "Right-to-Lifers" is actually a perversion of language. To the woman they deny her right to liberty,( to the functions of her body ), her right to the pursuit of happiness,---and sometimes even the right to life itself--even as a serf.Such a sentence represents the sacrifice of the ACTUAL to the POTENTIAL, of a human being to a piece of protoplasm, whichhas no life in the human sense of the term. The twisted mind of a fundie--their repeated inability to grasp the concept of "individual rights"( which is actually a redundant term )--adds fuel to aconflict which shouldn't even exist in the first place. If I was able to damn anyone--its the alleged "right-to-lifers". What a perverted joke. - 12:00:37 on 14 Nov 97 GMT .:PETER:--.."right -to-lifers"...bah!!!Thatwhich lives inside he body of another can claim no pregotatrives from its host. To deny abortion is an unspeakable violation to the individual right against the woman. The term "Right-to-Lifers" is actually a perversion of language. To the woman they deny her right to liberty,( to the functions of her body ), her right to the pursuit of happiness,---and sometimes even the right to life itself--even as a serf.Such a sentence represents the sacrifice of the ACTUAL to the POTENTIAL, of a human being to a piece of protoplasm, whichhas no life in the human sense of the term. The twisted mind of a fundie--their repeated inability to grasp the concept of "individual rights"( which is actually a redundant term )--adds fuel to aconflict which shouldn't even exist in the first place. If I was able to damn anyone--its the alleged "right-to-lifers". What a perverted joke. - 12:00:37 on 14 Nov 97 GMT - 12:11:02 on 14 Nov 97 GMT - 12:11:34 on 14 Nov 97 GMT - 12:12:11 on 14 - 12:12:49 on 14 Nov 97 GMT - 12:13:55 on 14 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:The Phantom of Copy and Paste is back! Idiocy reigns supreme! - 12:14:21 on 14 Nov 97 GMT

.:.:PETER:--.."right -to-lifers"...bah!!!Thatwhich lives inside he body of another can claim no pregotatrives from its host. To deny abortion is an unspeakable violation to the individual right against the woman. The term "Right-to-Lifers" is actually a perversion of language. To the woman they deny her right to liberty,( to the functions of her body ), her right to the pursuit of happiness,---and sometimes even the right to life itself--even as a serf.Such a sentence represents the sacrifice of the ACTUAL to the POTENTIAL, of a human being to a piece of protoplasm, whichhas no life in the human sense of the term. The twisted mind of a fundie--their repeated inability to grasp the concept of "individual rights"( which is actually a redundant term )--adds fuel to aconflict which shouldn't even exist in the first place. If I was able to damn anyone--its the alleged "right-to-lifers". What a perverted joke. - 12:00:37 on 14 Nov 97 GMT .:PETER:--.."right -to-lifers"...bah!!!Thatwhich lives inside he body of another can claim no pregotatrives from its host. To deny abortion is an unspeakable violation to the individual right against the woman. The term "Right-to-Lifers" is actually a perversion of language. To the woman they deny her right to liberty,( to the functions of her body ), her right to the pursuit of happiness,---and sometimes even the right to life itself--even as a serf.Such a sentence represents the sacrifice of the ACTUAL to the POTENTIAL, of a human being to a piece of protoplasm, whichhas no life in the human sense of the term. The twisted mind of a fundie--their repeated inability to grasp the concept of "individual rights"( which is actually a redundant term )--adds fuel to aconflict which shouldn't even exist in the first place. If I was able to damn anyone--its the alleged "right-to-lifers". What a perverted joke. - 12:00:37 on 14 Nov 97 GMT - 12:11:02 on 14 Nov 97 GMT .:PETER:--.."right -to-lifers"...bah!!!Thatwhich lives inside he body of another can claim no pregotatrives from its host. To deny abortion is an unspeakable violation to the individual right against the woman. The term "Right-to-Lifers" is actually a perversion of language. To the woman they deny her right to liberty,( to the functions of her body ), her right to the pursuit of happiness,---and sometimes even the right to life itself--even as a serf.Such a sentence represents the sacrifice of the ACTUAL to the POTENTIAL, of a human being to a piece of protoplasm, whichhas no life in the human sense of the term. The twisted mind of a fundie--their repeated inability to grasp the concept of "individual rights"( which is actually a redundant term )--adds fuel to aconflict which shouldn't even exist in the first place. If I was able to damn anyone--its the alleged "right-to-lifers". What a perverted joke. - 12:00:37 on 14 Nov 97 GMT .:PETER:--.."right -to-lifers"...bah!!!Thatwhich lives inside he body of another can claim no pregotatrives from its host. To deny abortion is an unspeakable violation to the individual right against the woman. The term "Right-to-Lifers" is actually a perversion of language. To the woman they deny her right to liberty,( to the functions of her body ), her right to the pursuit of happiness,---and sometimes even the right to life itself--even as a serf.Such a sentence represents the sacrifice of the ACTUAL to the POTENTIAL, of a human being to a piece of protoplasm, whichhas no life in the human sense of the term. The twisted mind of a fundie--their repeated inability to grasp the concept of "individual rights"( which is actually a redundant term )--adds fuel to aconflict which shouldn't even exist in the first place. If I was able to damn anyone--its the alleged "right-to-lifers". What a perverted joke. - 12:00:37 on 14 Nov 97 GMT - 12:11:02 on 14 Nov 97 GMT - 12:11:34 on 14 Nov 97 GMT .:PETER:--.."right -to-lifers"...bah!!!Thatwhich lives inside he body of another can claim no pregotatrives from its host. To deny abortion is an unspeakable violation to the individual right against the woman. The term "Right-to-Lifers" is actually a perversion of language. To the woman they deny her right to liberty,( to the functions of her body ), her right to the pursuit of happiness,---and sometimes even the right to life itself--even as a serf.Such a sentence represents the sacrifice of the ACTUAL to the POTENTIAL, of a human being to a piece of protoplasm, whichhas no life in the human sense of the term. The twisted mind of a fundie--their repeated inability to grasp the concept of "individual rights"( which is actually a redundant term )--adds fuel to aconflict which shouldn't even exist in the first place. If I was able to damn anyone--its the alleged "right-to-lifers". What a perverted joke. - 12:00:37 on 14 Nov 97 GMT .:PETER:--.."right -to-lifers"...bah!!!Thatwhich lives inside he body of another can claim no pregotatrives from its host. To deny abortion is an unspeakable violation to the individual right against the woman. The term "Right-to-Lifers" is actually a perversion of language. To the woman they deny her right to liberty,( to the functions of her body ), her right to the pursuit of happiness,---and sometimes even the right to life itself--even as a serf.Such a sentence represents the sacrifice of the ACTUAL to the POTENTIAL, of a human being to a piece of protoplasm, whichhas no life in the human sense of the term. The twisted mind of a fundie--their repeated inability to grasp the concept of "individual rights"( which is actually a redundant term )--adds fuel to aconflict which shouldn't even exist in the first place. If I was able to damn anyone--its the alleged "right-to-lifers". What a perverted joke. - 12:00:37 on 14 Nov 97 GMT - 12:11:02 on 14 Nov 97 GMT .:PETER:--.."right -to-lifers"...bah!!!Thatwhich lives inside he body of another can claim no pregotatrives from its host. To deny abortion is an unspeakable violation to the individual right against the woman. The term "Right-to-Lifers" is actually a perversion of language. To the woman they deny her right to liberty,( to the functions of her body ), her right to the pursuit of happiness,---and sometimes even the right to life itself--even as a serf.Such a sentence represents the sacrifice of the ACTUAL to the POTENTIAL, of a human being to a piece of protoplasm, whichhas no life in the human sense of the term. The twisted mind of a fundie--their repeated inability to grasp the concept of "individual rights"( which is actually a redundant term )--adds fuel to aconflict which shouldn't even exist in the first place. If I was able to damn anyone--its the alleged "right-to-lifers". What a perverted joke. - 12:00:37 on 14 Nov 97 GMT .:PETER:--.."right -to-lifers"...bah!!!Thatwhich lives inside he body of another can claim no pregotatrives from its host. To deny abortion is an unspeakable violation to the individual right against the woman. The term "Right-to-Lifers" is actually a perversion of language. To the woman they deny her right to liberty,( to the functions of her body ), her right to the pursuit of happiness,---and sometimes even the right to life itself--even as a serf.Such a sentence represents the sacrifice of the ACTUAL to the POTENTIAL, of a human being to a piece of protoplasm, whichhas no life in the human sense of the term. The twisted mind of a fundie--their repeated inability to grasp the concept of "individual rights"( which is actually a redundant term )--adds fuel to aconflict which shouldn't even exist in the first place. If I was able to damn anyone--its the alleged "right-to-lifers". What a perverted joke. - 12:00:37 on 14 Nov 97 GMT - 12:11:02 on 14 Nov 97 GMT - 12:11:34 on 14 Nov 97 GMT - 12:12:11 on 14 Nov 97 GMT .:.:PETER:--.."right -to-lifers"...bah!!!Thatwhich lives inside he body of another can claim no pregotatrives from its host. To deny abortion is an unspeakable violation to the individual right against the woman. The term "Right-to-Lifers" is actually a perversion of language. To the woman they deny her right to liberty,( to the functions of her body ), her right to the pursuit of happiness,---and sometimes even the right to life itself--even as a serf.Such a sentence represents the sacrifice of the ACTUAL to the POTENTIAL, of a human being to a piece of protoplasm, whichhas no life in the human sense of the term. The twisted mind of a fundie--their repeated inability to grasp the concept of "individual rights"( which is actually a redundant term )--adds fuel to aconflict which shouldn't even exist in the first place. If I was able to damn anyone--its the alleged "right-to-lifers". What a perverted joke. - 12:00:37 on 14 Nov 97 GMT - 12:11:02 on 14 Nov 97 GMT .:PETER:--.."right -to-lifers"...bah!!!Thatwhich lives inside he body of another can claim no pregotatrives from its host. To deny abortion is an unspeakable violation to the individual right against the woman. The term "Right-to-Lifers" is actually a perversion of language. To the woman they deny her right to liberty,( to the functions of her body ), her right to the pursuit of happiness,---and sometimes even the right to life itself--even as a serf.Such a sentence represents the sacrifice of the ACTUAL to the POTENTIAL, of a human being to a piece of protoplasm, whichhas no life in the human sense of the term. The twisted mind of a fundie--their repeated inability to grasp the concept of "individual rights"( which is actually a redundant term )--adds fuel to aconflict which shouldn't even exist in the first place. If I was able to damn anyone--its the alleged "right-to-lifers". What a perverted joke. - 12:00:37 on 14 Nov 97 GMT .:PETER:--.."right -to-lifers"...bah!!!Thatwhich lives inside he body of another can claim no pregotatrives from its host. To deny abortion is an unspeakable violation to the individual right against the woman. The term "Right-to-Lifers" is actually a perversion of language. To the woman they deny her right to liberty,( to the functions of her body ), her right to the pursuit of happiness,---and sometimes even the right to life itself--even as a serf.Such a sentence represents the sacrifice of the ACTUAL to the POTENTIAL, of a human being to a piece of protoplasm, whichhas no life in the human sense of the term. The twisted mind of a fundie--their repeated inability to grasp the concept of "individual rights"( which is actually a redundant term )--adds fuel to aconflict which shouldn't even exist in the first place. If I was able to damn anyone--its the alleged "right-to-lifers". What a perverted joke. - 12:00:37 on 14 Nov 97 GMT - 12:11:02 on 14 Nov 97 GMT - 12:11:34 on 14 Nov 97 GMT .:PETER:--.."right -to-lifers"...bah!!!Thatwhich lives inside he body of another can claim no pregotatrives from its host. To deny abortion is an unspeakable violation to the individual right against the woman. The term "Right-to-Lifers" is actually a perversion of language. To the woman they deny her right to liberty,( to the functions of her body ), her right to the pursuit of happiness,---and sometimes even the right to life itself--even as a serf.Such a sentence represents the sacrifice of the ACTUAL to the POTENTIAL, of a human being to a piece of protoplasm, whichhas no life in the human sense of the term. The twisted mind of a fundie--their repeated inability to grasp the concept of "individual rights"( which is actually a redundant term )--adds fuel to aconflict which shouldn't even exist in the first place. If I was able to damn anyone--its the alleged "right-to-lifers". What a perverted joke. - 12:00:37 on 14 Nov 97 GMT .:PETER:--.."right -to-lifers"...bah!!!Thatwhich lives inside he body of another can claim no pregotatrives from its host. To deny abortion is an unspeakable violation to the individual right against the woman. The term "Right-to-Lifers" is actually a perversion of language. To the woman they deny her right to liberty,( to the functions of her body ), her right to the pursuit of happiness,---and sometimes even the right to life itself--even as a serf.Such a sentence represents the sacrifice of the ACTUAL to the POTENTIAL, of a human being to a piece of protoplasm, whichhas no life in the human sense of the term. The twisted mind of a fundie--their repeated inability to grasp the concept of "individual rights"( which is actually a redundant term )--adds fuel to aconflict which shouldn't even exist in the first place. If I was able to damn anyone--its the alleged "right-to-lifers". What a perverted joke. - 12:00:37 on 14 Nov 97 GMT - 12:11:02 on 14 Nov 97 GMT .:PETER:--.."right -to-lifers"...bah!!!Thatwhich lives inside he body of another can claim no pregotatrives from its host. To deny abortion is an unspeakable violation to the individual right against the woman. The term "Right-to-Lifers" is actually a perversion of language. To the woman they deny her right to liberty,( to the functions of her body ), her right to the pursuit of happiness,---and sometimes even the right to life itself--even as a serf.Such a sentence represents the sacrifice of the ACTUAL to the POTENTIAL, of a human being to a piece of protoplasm, whichhas no life in the human sense of the term. The twisted mind of a fundie--their repeated inability to grasp the concept of "individual rights"( which is actually a redundant term )--adds fuel to aconflict which shouldn't even exist in the first place. If I was able to damn anyone--its the alleged "right-to-lifers". What a perverted joke. - 12:00:37 on 14 Nov 97 GMT .:PETER:--.."right -to-lifers"...bah!!!Thatwhich lives inside he body of another can claim no pregotatrives from its host. To deny abortion is an unspeakable violation to the individual right against the woman. The term "Right-to-Lifers" is actually a perversion of language. To the woman they deny her right to liberty,( to the functions of her body ), her right to the pursuit of happiness,---and sometimes even the right to life itself--even as a serf.Such a sentence represents the sacrifice of the ACTUAL to the POTENTIAL, of a human being to a piece of protoplasm, whichhas no life in the human sense of the term. The twisted mind of a fundie--their repeated inability to grasp the concept of "individual rights"( which is actually a redundant term )--adds fuel to aconflict which shouldn't even exist in the first place. If I was able to damn anyone--its the alleged "right-to-lifers". What a perverted joke. - 12:00:37 on 14 Nov 97 GMT - 12:11:02 on 14 Nov 97 GMT - 12:11:34 on 14 Nov 97 GMT - 12:12:11 on 14 - 12:12:49 on 14 Nov 97 GMT - 12:13:55 on 14 Nov 97 GMT - 12:15:19 on 14 Nov 97 GMT

JOETTE:The idiot thinks its all good stuff - 12:16:40 on 14 Nov 97 GMT

.:Reigns supreme - agreed - 12:18:23 on 14 Nov 97 GMT

-->you are a fucking asshole! - 12:18:30 on 14 Nov 97 GMT

-->GRIMWOOD..I knew it was you! Just couldn't stay away could you? - 12:20:32 on 14 Nov 97 GMT

passing through:Ohh. Rule #1. never display anger. If you have to shout at a child or hit an animal to get the point across, you've lost the plot. All this is very important to you at the time. As long as you go to bed feeling really good, that's all that matters. - 12:49:56 on 14 Nov 97 GMT

Grant:So, this Grimwood person's brain just misfires occasionally? - 13:15:11 on 14 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE and PETER- I hear your having one hell of a storm there. Was it you that over posted? - 13:46:25 on 14 Nov 97 GMT

PETER:==MARLENE--No, I just posted it once, then I guess someone else thought my utterings were so diabolically profound, they copied and pasted it over and over again. Seems kind of weird, actually. - 14:41:52 on 14 Nov 97 GMT

Steven:ADAM, hmmmph, I've always considered our dialogue friendly. Did attacking your precious republicans hit a sore spot or what. As to being a bigot I would disagree with you. I may be narrow minded about somethings ie. christianity, US gov, etc... but that does not make me a bigot. Because I point out things tht are controversial does not, I believe, make me a bigot. I have very strong beliefs and I tend to oversay what I feel. Republicans/Democrats they are all the same, if you had continued to read further into my posts. Adam do I must have hit a big button for you to respond the way you did. Are you a repub. or are you sleeping with one? C'mon Adam give me one of your usually humorous responses. Or have I crossed the line with you? Hmmmph very sensitive! - 14:48:18 on 14 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:--->MARLENE...we have about a foot of snow, and the roads are terrible! It's too early for this stuff! - 14:48:39 on 14 Nov 97 GMT

MARLENE, PETER, JOETTE, ROB, RON<<>> ADAM seems to believe that I am bigoted - 15:22:11 on 14 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:Going up... - 15:26:18 on 14 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:Going up... - 15:27:47 on 14 Nov 97 GMT

Carl:ANY: Looks like you northerners experience some stormy days, ever hear big Mama Thornton's version of "You ain't nuthin'but a houn'dog" very good stuff. We here awoke to the sounds of heavy rain on the roof, liten' and thunder, of the latter one or two even rattled the house. Of life and death, Montaigne words go thus "To die well requires greater moral stamina than to live well." There, recall Socrates conversation while awaitin'his nity-nite drink? As compared to jc who went psycho awaitin death. Who is the better example here? - 15:28:26 on 14 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:Going up... - 15:29:01 on 14 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:Going up... - 15:30:05 on 14 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:Going up... - 15:31:55 on 14 Nov 97 GMT

Steven:ANY<<>>That last post was from me, an I meant to ask for a response to my bigotry. If I am being narrow minded and a bigot someone concur with Adam. It is always better to know so you can change rather than continue on with the sam old tired bs. - 15:34:16 on 14 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:What goes up must come down... - 15:34:26 on 14 Nov 97 GMT

Carl:OPEN: The ex-copymat individual, is lonely and angry naked and doing things to themselve, coherent conversation and rational thought are not on his\her list of things to do today. - 15:35:50 on 14 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:CARL: Don't worry- that was me just speeding things up a little. STEVEN: I wouldn't take Adam on board too much. Yes you get pretty worked up with people like Richard and Quake, but then I personally think that without such responses then their likes would take over. As long as you're happy with how you are, then fuck 'em! IMO morals are man-made. - 15:46:01 on 14 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:One to go! - 15:49:33 on 14 Nov 97 GMT

Carl:LIFE: One must look upon views as RICHARD and, to an infintesimal degree, views as those like quack, with genuine askance. It is safe to say none o'these individuals have read much o'anything and their opinions yo-yo around and about a bible. While these folks may have thought long about their words they are nonetheless just wrong. That they somehow first imagine and then accept the confusion of their own abstractions as valid means they should burn their bible. Once it is just an ashpile, get some good books something by Poincare, Bergson, Russell, Dawkins,et.al., then it may follow that they might better appreciate that spirituality is merely one expression of one's bodily existence. - 16:12:20 on 14 Nov 97 GMT

GB:Rob are you in the market...(what goes up?) - 16:13:46 on 14 Nov 97 GMT

GB:wow ,peter types lots of thing.. - 16:14:55 on 14 Nov 97 GMT

Steven:ROB<<>> thanks for the input! - 16:36:46 on 14 Nov 97 GMT

PETER:--STEVEN--Obviously when you are called a "bigot" this has hit a sensitive nerve. Your post to a few of us "regulars" with what I interpret as a call to stick up for you, does however make me feel a tad uncomfortable, I must admit. If you do not think you are "bigot", first define exactly what you consider a definition of a bigot it is, and then take it from there. You are in a position of defending yourself, and you may, or may not agree what all of us consider to be a definition of a "bigot". Nowadays, being called a "bigot" is very strong word. And it should be. To me, it is simple. A bigot( or racism, discrimition due to religion, heritage, family-or any other form of collective ) is a quest for the unearned. It is a quest for automatic knowledge--for an automatic evaluation of men's characters that by-passes the responsibility of excercising rational or moral judgement--and above all, a quest for AUTOMATIC SELF-ESTEEM.( or pseudo self-esteem ) If one wishes to identify the logical fallacy committed by those who are considered Bbigots" or "rascists" or any one who exhibits pre-judicial judgements ( either positively or negatively )--they would commit the "fallacy of division" --or the "fallacy of composition" which is applying to the part which may be true to the whole--and apllying to the whole which may be true of the part respectively. Actually, a very religious man, Dr. Martin Luther King, said it very well " I have a dream that a man be judged by the content of his character, and not the colour of his skin ( and this could extended to the language he speaks, how much money he makes, who his family is, what clubs he belongs to, what he does for a living, where he lives, where he comes from, etc.)--which I think was so profound and so simple, and yet so out of the normal interpretations of Biblical scriptures. Now if you think you have judged others outside of these parameters Steven--I will leave it up to you. If you think you--or anyone else-- may have ventured beyond these borders--I would seriously recommend some closer self-examination. All one can do from this point is just take it from there. - 16:49:36 on 14 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:GB: I'm not in the market, but I was trying to express sale-utations to the prick called Grimwouldsaysomethinginterestingifheonlycould, who reposted Peter's post lots of times. How's life on theo-nlychatsitewitharesidentassholecalledquake? STEVE:No probs, you obstinate git ;) - 16:53:57 on 14 Nov 97 GMT

Steven:PETER<<>> I have been attempting to self-examine myself for several years now. I, in the past, was very militant/violent person as far as my beliefs were concerned. Now that I have aged some, I sense that this may not be the answer to everything. I am what many people have pointed out a very angry person. Since I consider this to be my largest personality flaw I have attempted to curve my anger and look at other means of solving problems. Controling my anger for me is a full time occupation. My wife has helped considerble in allowing me to step outside my self and realize how silly I can be sometimes when I become so angry. The reasons for the anger are many, which I will spare you. You probably see this for yourself with some of my posts. I like to believe that I am open minded to other points of view concerning religion, the government, and the defilement of my race, but I am not. The overwhelming evidence of injustice simply infuriates me. Thank you for the post PETER, I may be a little sensitive when it comes to being called a bigot. I guess if you go by the definition of bigot I could be cosidered a bigot concerning several issues. Oh well, all one can do is try. - 17:13:45 on 14 Nov 97 GMT

.:. - 17:15:56 on 14 Nov 97 GMT

.:. - 17:16:03 on 14 Nov 97 GMT

.:PETER:==MARLENE--No, I just posted it once, then I guess someone else thought my utterings were so diabolically profound, they copied and pasted it over and over again. Seems kind of weird, actually. - 14:41:52 on 14 Nov 97 GMT A La BLAH BLAH BLAH over 100 times - 17:17:57 on 14 Nov 97 GMT

Carl:PETER:--STEVEN--Obviously when you are called a "bigot" this has hit a sensitive nerve. Your post to a few of us "regulars" with what I interpret as a call to stick up for you, does however make me feel a tad uncomfortable, I must admit. If you do not think you are "bigot", first define exactly what you consider a definition of a bigot it is, and then take it from there. You are in a position of defending yourself, and you may, or may not agree what all of us consider to be a definition of a "bigot". Nowadays, being called a "bigot" is very strong word. And it should be. To me, it is simple. A bigot( or racism, discrimition due to religion, heritage, family-or any other form of collective ) is a quest for the unearned. It is a quest for automatic knowledge--for an automatic evaluation of men's characters that by-passes the responsibility of excercising rational or moral judgement--and above all, a quest for AUTOMATIC SELF-ESTEEM.( or pseudo self-esteem ) If one wishes to identify the logical fallacy committed by those who are considered Bbigots" or "rascists" or any one who exhibits pre-judicial judgements ( either positively or negatively )--they would commit the "fallacy of division" --or the "fallacy of composition" which is applying to the part which may be true to the whole--and apllying to the whole which may be true of the part respectively. Actually, a very religious man, Dr. Martin Luther King, said it very well " I have a dream that a man be judged by the content of his character, and not the colour of his skin ( and this could extended to the language he speaks, how much money he makes, who his family is, what clubs he belongs to, what he does for a living, where he lives, where he comes from, etc.)--which I think was so profound and so simple, and yetOPEN: Apparently, someone holds a genuine admiration of the regular folks here. - 17:29:04 on 14 Nov 97 GMT

Carl:ANY: Who plays this nonsense? - 17:30:25 on 14 Nov 97 GMT

Carl:ANY: there is no need to be afraid here, come on out - 17:34:13 on 14 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:CARL: I think Grimwood/whoever is going by the saying "It is better to remain silent and have people think you foolish, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt" - 17:37:13 on 14 Nov 97 GMT

Carl:ANY: where arrrre you? do you have a name? - 17:43:06 on 14 Nov 97 GMT

Carl:ROB: Ever see the Disney thing "Cinderella"? The unknown patchman is probably like that little fat mouse that near the start was caught in the trap, well, the poor thing does not know what to do here. ANY, come on in give yourself an alias an with that you can still sorta hide. - 17:48:06 on 14 Nov 97 GMT

Carl:ROB: so stll speakin'o'Disney stuff, my fav is undoubtedly "The Hunchback o'Notre Dame". Its dialogue and characters fit so very well the actual things recorded in accounts of the inquisition, the PKers, the Augsberg Confession, but anyway it is a kick ina'butt. ANY, have you picked out a name and you don't need to fear cussin'here - 18:05:06 on 14 Nov 97 GMT

Steven:Is there anybody out there? Hello, hello is there anybody in there, just smile if you can see me, is there anyone home. Relax, relax ya, i hear your feeling down, just the basic facts, can you show me where it hurts? There is no pain now you are receiving, a distant ship smoke on the horizon, you are all you comeing through in waves, your lips move, but I can't hear what your saying. When I was a child, I caught a fleeting glimpse out of the corner of my eye, i turned to look, but you were gone, I can put my finger on it, the child is gone, the dream has fled, I have become confortble num. - 18:08:03 on 14 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:-->STEVEN..you don't owe us anything here. You have been rather forthright in your postings, so at least you are baring it all for us, instead of holding anything back. I find that refreshing, even if I don't always agree with what you have to say. None of us has the right to censor anyone on this page. I still love you. - 18:22:00 on 14 Nov 97 GMT

Steven:JOETTE<<>> Thank you, your post put a smile on my face. - 18:38:49 on 14 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:JOETTE: My post will put a smile on your face ;) Question: What goes "bang-bang, clippety-clop, bang-bang, clippety-clop?" The Answer: An Amish drive by shooting. CARL: I'm afraid I'm not a Disney Dafficionado Duck, but I think ANY would be better compared to Goofy- doesn't say much and licks his own bollocks -Ooops! I meant doesn't say much and only has minor parts. - 19:12:46 on 14 Nov 97 GMT

Steven:ROB<<>> Your Momma! - 19:48:01 on 14 Nov 97 GMT

Steven:ROB :>) - 19:48:54 on 14 Nov 97 GMT

Carl:ROB: Of these mystery-posters, what who and why are they so reluctant and almost fearful of making themselves known? As JOETTE points out we are not here to engage in censorship, there is nothing to fear here except ones own ignorance of course. We make mistakes and for my part that is good- not bad, these mystery posters oughta'jump in and if for no other reason than to just see what they are made of, what they lack and so on. ANY come on in, - 19:55:17 on 14 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:-->ROB..old joke! Keeping in the same category..who starred in the Amish version of "The Terminator"? Arnold Schwartzentruber - 20:05:01 on 14 Nov 97 GMT

PETER:--Hey, actually this is fun. Here's another recent oldie but goodie:....RICHARD:Rob; NO the truth ! YOU people amaze me you really do. You deny and curse Christ and those who love Him, but when we teach the truth, OH well that's different, you love to grab the Bible and cite some text. You hypocrites ! - 0:46:04 on 2 Nov 97 GMT - 20:05:35 on 14 Nov 97 GMT

Steven:PETER<<>>uhhhh, what? - 20:08:09 on 14 Nov 97 GMT

Grant:PETER-- That is one of my favorites too, but, um, how do I know this is really you? Where the heck are MELISSA and JAYWILSON? - 20:15:12 on 14 Nov 97 GMT

PETER:--STEVEN--Don't ask me--Richard wrote it! ( Now that I have actually read it for the first time, its rather a ludicrous argument, isn't it? ) - 20:16:00 on 14 Nov 97 GMT

Carl:PETER: Of the truth, and especially biblical sorts, what are its adherent's genuine concerns? If there is one truth it is that we don't know what we don't know. I think I can see how this is so within the terms of sum totals. This later term was utilised to explain some other math notion, it looked good so I'm trying as you see it. I like what I see as I diagram this idea. - 20:23:44 on 14 Nov 97 GMT

Steven:In the Old and New Testaments, Satan (the devil) appears as the representative of evil. The philosophy and theology of the Enlightenment endeavoured to push the figure of the devil out of Christian consciousness as being a product of the mythological fantasy of the Middle Ages. It is precisely in this figure, however, that some aspects of the ways God deals with evil are especially evident. The devil first appears as an independent figure alongside God in the course of the Old Testament history of religion. In the Old Testament evil is still brought into a direct relationship with God; even evil, insofar as it has power and life, is effected by God: "I form light and create darkness, I make weal and create woe, I am the Lord, who do all these things" (Isaiah 45:7) - 20:39:29 on 14 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:-->TO ALL..it's funny, but when the Paste and Copy Phantom comes on, I recognize the postings. That's because I read everything. Now, when you see the posts, don't they ring bells, or are y'all like Rob, who broke my heart when he told me he didn't always read my posts? - 20:52:36 on 14 Nov 97 GMT

Carl:STEVE: But, but geeze, adherents o'god that tell of her say god is love and can do no evil and gives of herself as when she gives humans a soul. That latter point per the pope, so now back to a post o'mine several weeks ago in regards to the god as in charge o'soul issuance, then he/she/it commits sin when a soul is issued to wedlock children. Afterall, is is not sinful to fornicate,i.e., engage in sex outside the holiness of matrimony? So if your post is "True!" then it must mean the god can do as it damn well pleases? how enlightening, but is it the truth the adherents o'god mean to share? - 20:58:41 on 14 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:-->Steven..what is "weal"? Is that Elmer Fuddish for "real" - 20:59:41 on 14 Nov 97 GMT

Steven:JOETTE<<>>wascly wabbit. Weal=well being - 21:05:28 on 14 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:-->CARL...maybe out of wedlock children are exempt from the "no soul for sin" clause because, was Mary not still an unmarried lass when she was impregnated by god? Wasn't Joseph just the world's most famous cuckold? - 21:40:05 on 14 Nov 97 GMT

Steven:ANY<<>>I hope no one here ever names a child Richard. If you do you will be puting them throught hell in school. Richard=Dick hahahheheh - 21:48:04 on 14 Nov 97 GMT

Steven:hen the white man came, we had the land and he had the bibles. Now we have the bibles and he has our land." -- old native saying - 22:03:39 on 14 Nov 97 GMT

Carl:JOETTE: I have posited that query elsewhere but have yet to see a response. i did send off an anti-pk message to one of the PK sites. After reading the idiocy of their positions I may have been "compelled" to say somethin'. Whenever I work with kids, I ask them, what annoys/bugs them. They almost all always agree it has to be stupidity or ignorance. At the early ages, they see clearly, its old thinking that is most destructive. - 22:04:58 on 14 Nov 97 GMT

RON...--->ALL...:Greetings from the new Baker Oil Tools site. This is live from the new server room I helped build and installed all the servers. I have the coolest job. weeee - 22:54:13 on 14 Nov 97 GMT

Carl:OPEN: Why are "cops not protection", consider, last week a woman wife and mother of cops others in that family were cops and so forth. She came up missing, few days later found, dead- head bashed throat slashed. Day or so later, her husband is missing then his car is found. Last nite reports say they found him the cop dead, apparent self inflicted wound. the reports lack all the usual fanfare of such findings, why? Who figures this ought to be hushed or kept in the dark? Protect yourself? - 22:58:10 on 14 Nov 97 GMT

Adam Gee, Opie-ing Again:Steven: I fail to see any distinction between the mindset of someone who would launch a blanket attack against a large group of people based on race or ethnicity, and one who would do so on the basis of political party affiliation. In the U.S. in particular, the two large parties are less betrothed to ideology and more in the nature of enormous coalitions of widely varying interests and beliefs, making blanket statements about the entire membership of either of them absurd. In that earlier string of posts, I identified myself as a Republican, so apparently I fit your derogatory description of all Republicans. Given that assault on MY character, then, you ought not be surprised by counter-invective which, I can assure you, would not carryover to posts addressing less obnoxious statements of yours. - 23:06:50 on 14 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:-->ADAM..being a stupid Canuck, what is the difference between the two parties? (In this country, we have five national parties, so variety is the spice of life). BMW, have you got snow there yet? - 23:23:00 on 14 Nov 97 GMT

Adam Addenda:I would add kudos to Peter for including "any other form of collective"---my point exactly---in his definition of bigotry. I can check Am. Heritage to see if the term necessarily requires race/ethnic, etc. elements, but my point is that there is no difference in the mindsets of those who would say "All _____ are assholes" without a very specific basis. In fact, I think that all too often on this page, there are overly sweeping generalizations of "all Christians" or "all theists." To be sure, I say repeatedly that "all religion is ignorance," which necessarily is true if there is no god. Thus, all theists are ignorant, deluded, etc. TO THE EXTENT OF THEIR THEISM, but not necessarily in general (I like to point out, albeit sadly, that Einstein himself concluded that the structure of the universe was too intricate to have come into being without planning. Thus, I have the balls to say that, to that extent, Einstein was an intellectually weak fool). - 23:25:19 on 14 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:-->CARL..was he a "dirty" cop? - 23:25:55 on 14 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:-->ADAM..I agree with you; mind you, I think "fundies" (not your everyday, run of the mill theist) can and should insulted be en masse. How many hours till you are on vacation? - 23:29:38 on 14 Nov 97 GMT

Adam COOLNESS is in the eye of the BEHEMOTH:Ron: I must opine, my job is pretty damned cool. - 23:34:55 on 14 Nov 97 GMT

Adam YOU'RE SO WEATHERVANE...:No snow, Jo, but cold wind blow. I go tomorrow. - 23:39:48 on 14 Nov 97 GMT

Adam Pardon this long post...:...but this is why American Heritage is SUCH a good dictionary. In my obsessive habit, I HAD to look up "BIGOT" to see if my poke @ Peter was technically accurate. Of course, it was: "One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race OR POLITICS and is intolerant of those who differ." What does this have to do with this page, you ask? PLENTY, says AmHer........."A bigot may have more in common with God than one might think. Legend has it that Rollo, 1st duke of Normandy, refused to kiss the foot of French king Charles III, uttering the phrase 'bi got,' his borrowing of the assumed Old English equivalent of our expression 'by God.' Although this story is almost certainly apocryphal, it is true that 'bigot' was used by the French as a term of abuse for the Normans, but not in a religious sense. Later, however, the word, or very possibly a homonym, was used abusively in French for the Beguines, members of a Roman Catholic lay sisterhood. From the 15th century on Old French 'bigot' meant 'an excessively devoted or hypocritical person.' 'Bigot' is first recorded in English in 1598 with the sense 'a superstitious hypocrite.'" Score another tidbit of useful Atheist knowledge, in part by accident, to ME, with an assist to Steven. - 23:51:25 on 14 Nov 97 GMT

ADAM:AND WITH THAT, O PAGE DENIZENS, I BID YOU MUCH ADIOS AMIGOS UNTIL I RETURN FROM MEXICO 24 NOVEMBRE. ARRRRRRIBA!!! EL DIO SUCKS!!! - 0:04:09 on 15 Nov 97 GMT

ADAM P.S.:Watch me kick el Ni�o's ass! BEEFCAKE! - 0:05:38 on 15 Nov 97 GMT

jaywilson:GRANT: thanks for asking; I'm right here, so to speak. My on-line time is catch-as-catch-can, so I review the day's posts quickly each evening, and what I am moved to write, I write. I just haven't had much to write lately. I'll tell you this, however: last week's punfest w/ROB was more fun than I've had on-line in a long time (though a loafer myself, it's always nice to try on some Oxfords). This forum can be quite enjoyable, but I'm well aware of wearing out my welcome. - 1:02:04 on 15 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene :Again lots to catch up on! STEVEN- Take it from me, Mrs. Manners herself, who gives a ratshit if someone goes apeshit over your post. Being politically correct is for politicians! Adam himself is a bit of a biggot when it comes to American vs. Canadian laws, sports, etc. etc. JOETTE- I am so sorry to hear you have snow...ha ha! If I have snow, then everybody should have snow! ROB- Good joke! GRIMWOOD- Get a life! Gotta go watch all my sci-fi's now! ADAM- Bon voyage! - 1:03:28 on 15 Nov 97 GMT

RICHARD:AH, BUT IT IS TRUE ISN'T IT ? MANY OF YOU SWEAR AND CURSE THE NAME OF JESUS AND THOSE WHO COME HERE AND GIVE TESTIMONY; BUT IF WE SHOULD SAY SOMEHING THAT HITS HOME, SOME OF YOU CITE A PASSAGE FROM THE BIBLE. THAT DOES AMAZE ME AND SHOWS YOU TO BE HYPOCRITES. FOR IF YOU DO NOT BELIEVE IN GOD WHY DO YOU CITE HIS SCRIPTURE ? FOR SCRIPTURE IN YOUR HANDS IS LIKENED TO A RING OF GOLD IN A SWINES NOSE. - 6:35:34 on 15 Nov 97 GMT

Grant:OPEN-- An interesting quote from the Dead Sea Scrolls: God, who loves true knowledge, has positioned Wisdom and Cleverness in front of Him; Cunning and True Knowledge wait on him. He is very patient and forgiving, covering the sin of those who repent of wrongdoing. But Strength, Might, and great Wrath in the flames of fire with all the angels of destruction shall come against all who rebel against the proper way and who despise the law, until they are without remnant or survivor, for God had not chosen them from ancient eternity. Before they were created, He knew what they would do. So He rejected the generations of old and turned away from the land until they were gone. He knows the times of appearance and the number and exact times of everything that has existed and ever will exist before it happens in the proper time, for all eternity. And in all these times, He has arranged that there should be for Himself people called by name, so that there would always be survivors on the earth, replentishing the surface of the earth with their descendants. He taught them through those anointed by the holy spirit, the seers of truth. He explicitly called them by name. But whoever He had rejected He caused to stray. - 6:47:08 on 15 Nov 97 GMT

Grant:RICHARD-- We need something new from you. (or more insightful) - 6:50:22 on 15 Nov 97 GMT

Grant:JAYWILSON-- Last weeks punfest was the only time I can remember laughing out loud when alone. - 6:55:39 on 15 Nov 97 GMT

Grant:RICHARD-- BTW, Do you hold the view that nonbelievers should not study the Bible, or speak of it, or the arbitrary picking and choosing of applicable parts by believers? Personally I don't "curse the name of Jesus" any more than the name of Thor or Neptune or any other mythical figure. Tell me why I should listen to you. I have a good understanding of your beliefs, but you understand nothing of mine. I've read theologians who are disciplined thinkers and have knowledge of the whole picture. I can learn from them but can learn nothing from your blind faith. - 7:35:44 on 15 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene..yics--:GRANT- Your above post to the YIC is very good. I may personally attack the delusion of jesus but it's not jesus I dislike. It's the people who insist on carrying on this violent and non-productive religion that I scorn. The fact that they invade on my privacy with trying to install a church-state makes me even angrier. Finally my big time beef and my greatest disgust with these people is that they infect the minds of our future, the children. - 15:03:00 on 15 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:RICHARD: Are you a goldfish? It's just your memory seems a little temporally truncated for a human. Look at that castle. With regards to your swine's nose, would you also extend the analogy to the extent that you are telling porkies? Oooh! look at that castle. jaywilson: It was fun, wasn't it. But I suppose we should try and get out of our habits, as such puns are extremely friarble. What's a castle? Bo - 15:11:19 on 15 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:Wasn't it wasteful of the yic's jesus to cast swine over the cliff? Today swine actually save human life. We use many parts of swine in transplants, we use insulin made from swine and for some this is a food staple. Yics are clueless. Morning Rob! - 15:22:38 on 15 Nov 97 GMT

jaywilson:ROB: What's a castle? I don't know, but I'll take a rook around, as the Fischer King once said (a single guy, he couldn't check with his mate). - 15:24:58 on 15 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:jaywilson: In Short, I think you'll find a castle is a fortified plaice where goldfish like Richard hide (from the Karp of human reason). Now maybe if the Fischer King wasn't so Koi, he might have convinced a nice little chessty blonde to spend the knight with him, instead making do with pawn and planktonic relationships. - 17:05:09 on 15 Nov 97 GMT

jaywilson:ROB: I disdain plank-tonic relationships--and who wood knot?--in that they leave me board and lumbering about. If Jesus was a carpenter--and you were a lathe, Dei--why must we all go plumb crazy squaring ourselves with God? How to escape this Dove-taled joint? It goes against my grain. - 18:32:33 on 15 Nov 97 GMT

RON...--->he he he,...:I love multi-T1's to the Inet. But, I hate it when my DLT is a junker. The new Greenspoint site is almost up. I'm tired. - 21:03:37 on 15 Nov 97 GMT

RON...--->MARLENE...:My appointment today was great. I can't write about it here, eyes may be watching. I'll write the whole poop to you tonight. I have much info , much info. Good news and very bad news. You'll have to bite your nails until tonight's email. - 21:05:36 on 15 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene.:HI RON- EVERYTHING is happening tonight! Your e-mail which I'm sure I could have pooped the same poop for $65, Jim's coming home, Sleepwalkers, The Pretender and The Practice is on TV and it's going to get dark too! Do you mean little ole Curious's eyeballs? - 21:36:22 on 15 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:ALL- Oh, gawd! The united church has a lost shepherd! This shepherd has been teaching his lambs that there is no heaven or hell, yikes! But..instead of re-assimilating him (that may be impossible because he now thinks), the powers that be, are going to remove him from his shepherding post! How lucky can this xtian get! He's been given back his life! - 21:45:00 on 15 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- Are you tired of shoveling yet! Ha ha! - 21:46:39 on 15 Nov 97 GMT

Rob:jaywilson: The answer's plane for all to see (except for me, who's been on a pub-crawl and is 12 pints the worse for wear-and am now off to the chippy). Without the carpenter, you're beeched, and without wanting to cite a-corny pun, those who respect the mitre shall become right-angels instead of being burnt to Ashes in the fiery fern-ace of Luci-fir. So abandon your vices, lest you should become the butt of the joke, and stop barking up the wrong tree. Time for me to log off, and go find some balsa-mic vinegar for my chips. - 23:39:24 on 15 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:-->MARLENE..sorry to disappoint you, but the hired help come with the condo fees, therefore I never have to lift an outdoor impliment..mind you, it was great weather for the Santa Claus parade today! - 0:16:18 on 16 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:-->ROB...even hours of tub thumping can't keep a good wordsmith down! - 0:17:48 on 16 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- OOOOOOOOH! That's where you've been, and I thought you were out stocking up on snacks and beer for the game tomorrow! BTW, I'm jealous, I have to shovel! - 0:48:56 on 16 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:-->MARLENE...do you actually watch "THE GAME"? I'd rather have root canal work! - 2:08:28 on 16 Nov 97 GMT

PETER:--Time for a new feature: "Biblical cotraditions ( and there are THOUSANDS ): God creates animals and then men--Gen 1:25-26.....God creates man and then animals--Gen. 2:18-19. The amusing part comes when the fundies try to explain them away. - 3:28:36 on 16 Nov 97 GMT

Steven:ADAM, oooh a Republican, I did hit a sore spot. Well I am sorry for upsetting you but Republicans and everything they stand for bother me. How many Rush Limbaugh shows do you have to see. Or lets speak about the infamous Newt G. and let not for get Mr. Reagan and the speach about the Evil Empire. How man times do you have to hear the Repulicans standing for God, Church, and Country. Hey the big Demo's are not any better and yes you could probably point out some members of each party as being less than what you would hope for. As if Sen Kennedy and Bill daddy wasn't bad enough. Adam I couldn't give one rats ass about any of the politicians in this country. Excuse the diatribe. - 5:53:06 on 16 Nov 97 GMT

PapaSam:RICHARD; don't want to get into any deep theology debates as I lack knowledge of the subject. Could you just answer the following questions with a simple "yes" or "no"? Thank you in advance for enlightening me. Is God all powerful? Is God all knowing? Is Cod kind and loving? Did God create the universe with its billions of galaxies down to the smallest particle of sub- atomic matter? Did God create all life on earth from the giant dinosaurs to the microscopic, and the millions of life forms in between? Could God, if he so desired, make the universe disappear? Thank you in advance for your reply - 6:45:30 on 16 Nov 97 GMT

Anon: From Kipling's "The Vampire" "A fool there was and he made his prayer-" A fat lot of good it did him.!! - 7:02:10 on 16 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:ANON- One of my favorite sayings is "Nothing fails like prayer!". - 15:23:57 on 16 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:STEVEN- You'll have to repost later on in the month. Adam has gone on vacation. I'm not sure to where but rumor is to de islands. I think I'm going to join an errancy list in the near future. I understand that it has been created by a ex-xtian pastor. He has a good argument for anything. - 15:29:19 on 16 Nov 97 GMT

jaywilson:MARLENE: Good day; I was wondering, if one were to change the word prayer to meditation, would your saying still ring true, and why/why not? - 15:53:59 on 16 Nov 97 GMT

jaywilson:PapaSam: Cod, from what I have heard, are kind and loving. - 16:05:30 on 16 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:JAYWILSON- Change the word to meditation and one would likely have the same thing. Meditate to god or pray, both focuses one's mind on the task at hand. Of course it depends what one is meditating too or on. If it's a supernatural being or force then one will like have some wild hallucinations depending on if one uses a drug of some sort. Emptying the conscience of normal thoughts (without the aid of drugs) by focusing on a single point is theraputic in that it is relaxes one for a short period of time if one feels stressed. So, I guess my answer would be if one replaces the word prayer with meditation (and still tries to focus on the supernatural) then I would have to amend my statement to "nothing fails like meditation when focused on the supernatural" - 16:30:25 on 16 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:PAPASAM- Are you referring to the Codaidians from the east coast. - 16:33:06 on 16 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:-->Papasam...good questions for Richard, but lo, he will not answer. It is our experience that fundies never answer questions. Besides, I heard on the news that they are having one heck of a heat wave in Australia, and that fires are burning out of control, so hopefully he is out trying to good for humanity. - 16:51:47 on 16 Nov 97 GMT

jaywilson:MARLENE: Thank you for your thoughtful reply; prayer, meditation, and thought are three entirely different activities to my mind--and to a dictionary; however, the mish-mash of 'New Age' (just Dark Age with a facelift) dialectic tends to use these words interchangeably. Asking a supernatural hallucination for help is different from focusing on the perception that one needs help--which in turn is not the same as needing help. Your clarification is right on the money. - 17:03:04 on 16 Nov 97 GMT

PETER:....Jacob's offspring in Egypt totalled 70--Ge. 46:26-27, Ex 1:5.... however in Acts 7:15, this number is bumped to 75!! - 21:59:36 on 16 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:EVERYONE- I just picked up the new _Skeptic_ today. The topic, The God Question. If I find something interesting I'll post it. PETER- And just how would Jacob know that they were all HIS offspring? Hey, I'd be asking for paternity tests! Let me see, how many handmaidens did he actually have and how many guards would actually only guard them? Then there's the ole holy spirit that forces itself on virgins, how do we know if that ole snake in the grass didn't visit Jacob's harem? Did Jacob count the "girl" children or like a god-gangbanger not consider them worthy of exsistence? Oooo..the questions can go on and on! - 23:43:32 on 16 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:JAYWILSON- The "higher-self" to the fern-sniffers is supernatural. The way that they define the supernatural is "laws that don't conform to natural laws". Many try to use quantum mechanics to prove their theory. My position on this is that although we don't totally understand the workings on this level at this time, there is no reason to assume the workings are supernatural. It will just take time and once fully understood the natural laws which now are defined will just be refined. - 23:49:43 on 16 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:JAYWILSON- Hummm..maybe refined isn't the proper wording but hopefully "ya know what I'm sayin'"! - 23:52:27 on 16 Nov 97 GMT

Joette (onward atheist soldiers...):-->MARLENE..you mean you aren't stuck in front of the television snoring to the non-action of "THE GAME"? Actually, I managed to get this city's one copy of Skeptic magazine earlier this week, and I forced a nice Catholic girl that work's for me to read it, because she had the audacity to say to me "What's wrong with believing in god?" BTW, I am now getting a great deal of resistance from my government rep on the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, and the information I need to pursue it. Again, I heard "What's wrong with...". I replied that it is no worse than people trying to lose reality in a bottle. I had to remind them that we do live in a democracy, and it is up to me to pursue anything I want, barring any breaking of laws. I will need your help in this matter if you are still interested.... - 0:04:08 on 17 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- I'll help as much as I can, but I'm definately not a wiz-kid in politics! Nope, not watching the game! Remember, I hate sports! I'll be watching the Simpsons, King of the Hill and X-Files though. Maybe that nice little rc girl will have Father Faithful over to exorcise you, yikes! - 0:28:03 on 17 Nov 97 GMT

Joette :-->MARLENE..being a junior god in the workplace, if she died, I'd fire her ass right out the door! Hahahahah hehehehe (do I sound like Richard?) - 0:33:25 on 17 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:-->retraction: that should say "if she did" not "if she died". I am so ashamed! - 1:32:07 on 17 Nov 97 GMT

PapaSam:RICHARD.....!! I'm waiting.I'm a lost soul wandering in the wilderness. Help me to find the light!! - 2:07:23 on 17 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene...take charge of those lambkins!:JOETTE- Yikes Joette, ya sound like a YIC! Just let the staff know tomorrow to say 10 -Hail Joette armed with Mace- or else you'll fire all their asses out the door! - 3:28:30 on 17 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene..KFC Downunder:PAPASAM- Dicky-boid has actual fire and brimstone to deal with now. Hopefully he's not caught in the middle of a wildfire because instead of save himself, he'll wait to be rescued by his lord. We all know how that'll turn out! Will that be fried or roasted Dicky-Boid? - 3:34:18 on 17 Nov 97 GMT

RICHARD:PapaSam; YES, and the LIGHT is none other than JESUS HIMSELF; who is the Almighty God and Everlasting Father, who is self generating ie; eternal, who has ever been and ever shall be, without beginning or end. By whom ALL was created and there is not anything created that HE did NOT create. And if HE should turn away all will be destroyed; for by HIM do ALL things consist. But what is your real motive behind your questions ? - 3:46:24 on 17 Nov 97 GMT

RICHARD:Joette; Yes it is true indeed that we have Bushfires here, and that I have been in the volunteer Bushfire brigade for 16 years and have had to face fire often. That with prayers also for the safety of my 'mates'( some who are atheists ) but we fight the fires shoulder to shoulder. God is good and has protected us many times, and I am not without thanks to God for that protection and answered prayer. But I have answered PapaSam, so you ought to think again before you speak he, he, he...oh and by the way, when was the last time you faced a bushfire on the nozzle end of a hose ??? - 3:52:40 on 17 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene..pondering the claim of perfection:Damn, spoiled my dinner! Isn't it odd that such a perfect god could create such an imperfect world...bush fires..delusional humans..sickness?????? - 4:19:13 on 17 Nov 97 GMT

Marlene..beginning the ritual:Well, time for bed and a few passages of _Skeptic_ then 10 "Hail Joette armed with Mace" and I'm out for the night. Goodnight atheists! ZOINK! - 4:21:51 on 17 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:-->RICHARD..I think it very commendable of you that you have been out fighting the fires. It is true that your "lord giveth, and your lord taketh away", because I want to say something nice to you, but alas, by the rest of your post, you have ruined it. Your fighting bush fires does not make you a better person than I. I just don't happen to live where there are bush fires. I guess that makes me smarter than you! hehehehehehe - 4:38:02 on 17 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:-->RICHARD...why is prayer always reactive as opposed to proactive. Shouldn't the praying start before the fires start??? "please god, don't let any fires start....." Why do prayers always seem to come in handy AFTER THE FACT? - 4:49:13 on 17 Nov 97 GMT

PAPASAM:RICHARD" You say God is all powerful and God is all knowing. Perhaps you can dip into your font of God-given wisdom and answer this. A little girl is raped, sodomized and killed. I'm just a human and I would have killed the pervert to prevent it. What was your kind and loving god doing? Enjoying the spectacle? My motive should be obvious, to show that where your religion is concerned you are little better than a parrot reciting the catechism that has been brainwashed into you. SHOW ME ONE ORIGINAL THOUGHT THAT YOU HAVD CONTRIBUTED TO YOUR RELIGION. - 5:33:54 on 17 Nov 97 GMT

PapaSam:RECOMMENDED READING: "2000 Years of Disbelief" by James A Haught published by Prometheus Press. My own work: "An Atheist's Prayer" which I will email to all who request it, no charge, as opposed to the holy rollers who mail religious tracts begging for money, ostensibly to feed the starving children in Neverland, but which usually ends up on the backs and dinner tables of the solicitors. Yes, Richard, I'll even send one to you if you haven't gone mad trying to ratiionalize an answer to my question. PapaSam@webtv.net - 6:07:37 on 17 Nov 97 GMT

RICHARD:PapaSam; Do you think the murderer escapes ? They sure do these days what with no death sentence. But do not fear God will send them to everlasting punishment. You make a mockery of God also; for he did NOT create robots but gave men freewill. you think God does NOT know what happens, yet you expect God to intervene ? Then realise this too, that every abortion of the child is murder also, and none of these will go unoticed either. There is a judgement day ahead to be sure, but among men it's about time that they started to execute the murderers again. - 6:47:23 on 17 Nov 97 GMT

RICHARD:papaSam; Keep your books, I do not care for the writings of fools. - 6:48:27 on 17 Nov 97 GMT

Joette:-->RICHARD..how do you know if the books are written by fools? It would be like us discounting the bible without having read it. We have read your book, so why don't you take up the challenge? Are you afraid that an original thought might enter your head? - 11:55:47 on 17 Nov 97 GMT

Grant:RICHARD-- Is your god bitter and petty like you? - 12:23:52 on 17 Nov 97 GMT

.:Updated 06/23/97 Matthew Legare KotM Vote Wrangller this page has been accessed times. Sorta. There are eccentrics, there are iconoclasts, and then there are stark staring lunatics. The Kook of the Month Award is a monthly award dedicated to finding the true nutburgers of the net and sharing their wisdom and knowledge with the rest of the alt.usenet.kooks population (and, in some small way, the Net as a whole). Since I came onboard (see A brief history of KotM), the KotM Award has spawned a whole slew of other awards celebrating the vocal fringe, see below: A Brief History of KotM Once upon a time, Craig Dickson began holding votes for Usenet's Kook-of-the-Month.Time passed, and Crag eventually became disillusioned with the manner in which KotM was being used as a weapon of derision instead of a tool of celebration of the Truly Bent. Well, there was an interval where the KotM award languished, like a disused snowshoe in the corner, until someone with too much free time and not enough sense volunteered to help. That idiot was me, Matthew Legare. At the same time, Lewis de Payne (lewiz@netcom.com), who was under a certain amount of scrutiny for his advocacy of the Ross Jeffreies' "Speed Seduction" technique (see newsgroup alt.fan.speed-seduction)also proclaimed himself KotM moderator. What followed was a minor skirmish along the lines of the Holy Roman Empire II, punctuated by massive post forging of various a.u.k personnel advocating Lewis as KotM moderator, including but not limited to Craig Dickson. Eventually the smoke cleared, and (since I was the only one actually doing any damn work) I had the entirely dubious honor of being KotM Vote Wrangler. Even Lewis has admitted so, but not before I nominated him for the Hook, Line, and Sinker Award. Since then, the KotM Awards Mob has staggered onward, in fits and starts, sometimes stacking two months together (when I don't have the time to really handle each month separately), but it perserveres, like a bad allergy. Recently, KotM winner Steve Boursy declared his own KotM awards, but has yet to mention any winners. Mostly because people kept publically voting for him. Well, time and Real Life being what they are, there was a Big Hiccup in the KotM proceedings (hey, I couldn�t get to the net to keep up!) During this time, Tim Skirvin�s KillFile Daemons took up the post of KotM Vote Wranglers (or KotM Vote Wrangler Proxies, I guess) and kept things lurching along, more or less. BUT, now I�m back and more or less ready to keep things moving. At least for now. This is a HOBBY, dammit! Ok. About this many folks have seen the site since I installed this thing [Home] [Bragging] [Rules] [Awards] [Winners] [Nominees] [Resources] [Ballot] - 12:45:14 on 17 Nov 97 GMT

HI YOU ALL.:a.v. club | the drug war Artist Title The Onion talks to drug fighters about teen drug use, drug testing, the Drug Czar, and why drug dealers are getting a bad rap by Mike Loew The War On Drugs is everywhere, from the presidential election to the schoolyard. With employee drug testing, community programs to sniff out drug-pushers, and a national Drug Czar appointed to fight drugs on a federal level, everyone seems to be getting in on the act. The Onion recently spoke to some soldiers in The Drug War in an effort to gather insights about their work and their mission. Drug Fighter #1 Council on Drug Abuse The Onion: Hi, I'm calling because I'm the parent of two teenagers, and recently I've come to think my younger son is using marijuana. Council on Drug Abuse: Okay. O: I'm worried about this, so last night I asked him to show me his bag of pot. Then, to foster a sense of communication and openness, our family all smoked it together. I was calling to see if you think that's a good approach to the problem. CDA: What did he have? O: He probably had about a quarter-ounce of fresh, leafy marijuana, and we smoked it in his smooth, cool water bong. CDA: And that was to show him... O: I had never done it before, so I wanted to make sure he's not in over his head. CDA: Have you noticed any changes in him? What made you suspicious? O: Well, he's been awfully creative lately. He's been drawing a lot, writing poetry, and playing in a rock 'n' roll band. CDA: Is that new behavior for him? O: He was a bit dull before. There's the upsurge in creativity, and he's been having more of a social life. And I could smell a funny smell coming from his room, along with laughter and general merriment. CDA: That's very common; they'll often burn incense to cover up the smell of marijuana, because it has a very distinct odor. Can I have your first name? O: Sure, it's Peter. But do you think that was a good idea, to smoke it with him? I'm looking for some guidance here, because he's making plans to invite some people over and smoke tonight with me again. CDA: I would not encourage smoking with your son. How old is he? O: Fourteen. CDA: I would not encourage that. I hear that you're wanting openness and communication, but the message that's also sending is it's okay to use this illegal substance, as long as we use it together. I think you need to be careful what kind of messages you send to him. O: We do a lot of things together, my son and I. We enjoy fishing, camping and boating. But ever since he started smoking marijuana, we haven't been doing those things so much, so I thought I should see what he's up to lately. I like to think of myself as kind of hip, for a 32-year-old guy. Have you ever smoked marijuana? CDA: Yes. O: What do you think about it? CDA: I think it's very psychologically addicting. Even the things you've talked about--the creativity, the sociability--you can become psychologically dependent on marijuana to help you be those things. So if someone says, "A bunch of us are getting together for a party this weekend," you think, "Oh my gosh, now I've got to get some marijuana so I can smoke up before I go to this party, so I can be social." O: Or you could bring it to the party and let everyone smoke it. That would be fun. CDA: He could, but then if he got caught he'd be in a lot of trouble. O: Am I in trouble for smoking last night? CDA: I would discourage you from doing that with him again. I'm going to give you the phone number of a treatment center that deals exclusively with adolescents and their families. What you may want to do is contact them, and have a family session with someone there. O: Do you think we could smoke it there? CDA: No, this is a treatment center. O: Oh, yeah, okay. CDA: This is a treatment center. Why would you want to smoke it there? I would encourage you, before you get involved with this, to get more information, both for yourself and for your son. Your son is 14 years old, he is undergoing some very important developmental changes, and smoking or doing drugs can interfere with those processes. I'm going to give you this number... [Provides number.] They can assess where your son is at with his marijuana usage, and answer any questions you might have, too. Are there any other questions that you have for me? O: Do you think that when a person smokes marijuana, the seeds should be separated from the leaves, or should they just be mixed in with the rest of the stuff? CDA: Is this for you or for your son, that you're asking this? O: We both were a little confused about this. CDA: Okay, I don't know that I can give you any advice about that, but I can recommend that you get some guidance from people who work specifically with adolescents. For your interest, and it sounds pretty strong, I would also encourage you to get some education on it before you develop a dependency on it. O: What are the dangers that come with repeated usage, besides the enhanced creativity and social life? CDA: Certainly it can affect your lungs, it can affect the memory; you can become psychologically dependent on it to be social, to be creative; you can depend on it just to function, psychologically. You won't suffer physical withdrawal symptoms from it, but you'll suffer mentally and emotionally if you become addicted to it. O: Sure. My son's friends just got here. Thanks, gotta go. CDA: Mm-hmm. Thank you and good luck. Drug Fighter #2 DARE Onion: Hello, my name is Howie Brooks. I'm a neighborhood, street corner-style drug pusher, and frankly, I'm a little tired of all the negative publicity that DARE has been perpetuating about what we do. D: A neighborhood drug pusher? O: Right. I'm proud of my profession, and... [DARE hangs up.] Hello? Drug Fighter #3 Drug Testing Service The Onion: Hello, can I speak with someone in charge of drug testing? DTS: That's me. O: Hi, this is James diGriz. I'm the chief executive of the Alexander Corporation.