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man is man-made.

Discussion Page Archives

Month of October '97

Bill...:ADAM, MIKE, I agree that the impetus for the big bang is conjecture. When I mentioned the possibility of, "the universe creating itself" it was based on writings by Hawkings which suggest that the universe may not have come from a point source but rather a "bell shaped" curved beginning indicating that the impetus may have been internal rather than external. Also, concerning the anthropic principle, Paul Davies (physicist) says, "Another weakness of the anthropic argument is that it seems the very antithesis of Occam's razor, according to which the most plausible of a possible set of explanations is that which contains the simplest ideas and least number of assumptions. To invoke an infinity of other universes just to explain one is surely carrying excess baggage to cosmic extremes…" So the multiple universe theory is tied to the anthropic argument. - 0:20:01 on 1 Oct 97 GMT

Adam---> First of my ketchups for today:(Bear with me, I'm back about 40 posts)---->Webster Slaughter is not just a football player, Grant. Again, I sing the praises and rely on AmHER as the finest US disctionary. It has no listing such as yours, which I question given AmHER's depth. Here goes (emphases are MINE)---> Lower-case nihilism: (1)(a) an extreme form of skepticism that DENIES ALL EXISTENCE; (1)(b) a doctrine holding that ALL values are baseless and that NOTHING CAN BE KNOWN or COMMUNICATED; (2) rejection of ALL distinctions in moral or religious value and a willingness to repudiate all previous thoeries of morality or religious belief; (3) The belief that DESTRUCTION of EXISTING POLITICAL or SOCIAL INSTITUTIONS is NECESSARY for future improvement..........Upper-case Nihilism: (1) A diffuse revolutionary movement of mid-19th C. Russia that scorned authority and tradition and believed in reason, materialism and radical change is society & government thru terror & assassination (I will omit the last entry, which deals with a psychiatric term for the delusion that one's self is non-existent)<----- Now, the only element of these with which I could be associated is the latter part of #2, but I certainly do not reject all distinctions in moral or religious values. This was the long-course post I had hoped not to have to post to Mike, but Grant drove me over the Ni-Hill. - 0:27:16 on 1 Oct 97 GMT

Adam ROAD-to-HELL KILL:Peter...My karma just ran over your dogma. - 0:30:41 on 1 Oct 97 GMT

Adam DON'T MESS...:Steven...Dallas is a second home of sorts to me, and I must say that I have found no particularly disproportionate number of godsquadders in the Lone Star than most other places. Every street corner? C'mon, pard. BMW, my favorite Texan line: a stodgy good ol' law partner, overhearing for the millionth time that the heat in Dallas is bad, but not too bad because it's a DRY heat, interrupts with: "Son, my oven uses dry heat, and it'll cook up a chicken RIGHT quick." - 0:39:34 on 1 Oct 97 GMT

Adam Corn Pone:Hey Marlen---> CORNY sux. I'll kick his ass. In fact, I'll take on Jesus and Corny simultaneously in a steel cage death match. - 0:45:58 on 1 Oct 97 GMT

Adam ENLIGHTENING:Carl---> Please see my detailed posting on the non-godly origin of lightning, supra, about 350 posts back. - 0:48:00 on 1 Oct 97 GMT

Adam BRONX BUMMERS:¡¡¡I F&^%$&^G HATE THE GODDAMN YANKEES!!! - 0:51:55 on 1 Oct 97 GMT

Adam Low-Brow Deity:Jo heretic: I AM THE LORD PETER's GOD. He shall think of me when posting to all others. And I am a zealous god. I can do anything. Oh, Shit, Satan made a deal with the Medamned Yankees! I hate that shit. Peter, thou shall sacrifice to me your first-born paycheck in October (you DO work, dontcha, you bastard?). - 1:01:44 on 1 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene hummm..tired of playing this xtian's game:BROTHER MIKE- Who are you to judge who what constitutes "lady-like". "Lady-like" went out with the dinosaurs! Anyway since you want to just play games here and not answer direct questions, I have nothing more to "discuss" with you. BTW as far as money goes, I'm not the one making money off other people's fears and low self-esteem. A pimp for jesus is exactly what you are! And no, this atheist is born with a silver spoon stuck up her ass. - 1:25:56 on 1 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:ADAM- HEY! Good luck with Corny! Since Corny is invisible, how will you find him in that steel cage? - 1:28:34 on 1 Oct 97 GMT

Adam---Corn MEAL:Corny's a f(*)%$^g pussy! 3 minutes, and you got cream of corn! - 1:33:08 on 1 Oct 97 GMT

Grant:MIKE-- Are you going to contribute something or not? Can your BS stand up to scrutiny or can't it, or is this a "pearls before swine" situation? If you are here to sell something you're doing a poor job because you won't tell what it is. - 2:23:31 on 1 Oct 97 GMT

Grant:CARL-- You're getting high scores on your mike posts. Would you e-mail me when you get a chance? I seek the title of a book you mentioned some time back. polokov@hotmail.com - 2:45:11 on 1 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:GRANT- I've never visited an xtian chat line. Those people are way off in la-la land. Why, then, do they come here? To date, not one of them have given a direct answer to the questions. Notice how they fail to practice what they teach. For instance, one of their "golden rules" is to "turn the other cheek". They definately have a problem with that one. Then they suggest that we are trying to "convert" them. Covert them to what may I ask, sanity? Wierd, wierd, wierd! - 3:34:41 on 1 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:GRANT- Some time ago we had a tax professor from Downunder posting here. A little over a month ago he was on one of their local radio stations examining the finacial statements of some of these churches. As you likely know, their income is not taxed. Like any other business they should have to pay their fair share. - 3:42:52 on 1 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:Look here ADAM, that isn't very gentile-manly of you! - 3:54:13 on 1 Oct 97 GMT

Grant:MARLENE-- I've often wondered why they (xtians) post here. I wouldn't mind it if they just came to learn more about what athiests believe or to just chat, but they always have the "look you idiots, life is better if you believe in the fairy godmother" approach, and of coarse they don't feel any need to be honest or courteous because we are the enemy of god and the end justifies the means. One doesn't have to waste any morals on people outside the flock. I with you about the taxes. I'm willing to have the actual church buildings be tax exempt, but all else should be taxed. - 12:04:18 on 1 Oct 97 GMT

Grant:ADAM-- I can clearly see it's time to upgrade the ol' dictionary. - 12:10:31 on 1 Oct 97 GMT

Humor:Grant:-Shamelessly stolen from the Infidels board and Avram Grumer. - 12:56:36 on 1 Oct 97 GMT

I MISSED THE REPLIES_SORRY...: Welcome to Submission Your best source of ISLAM (SUBMISSION) on the WWW ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful Diana, Princess of Wales 1961-1997 As far as Islam (Submission) is concerned Princess Diana is going to Heaven [Image] The world lost one of the most loved ladies in our times, Princess Diana. Her loss is only this temporary world's loss because it is definitely Heaven's gain. While the world is grieving over her loss, those who know true Islam know that Princess Diana has made it to Heaven at the right time that was destined for her. Irrespective of her religion, her beliefs and her doings in this life, the religion of Islam (Submission in English) teaches us that she is destined for Heaven. Her death at 36 years of age was not a co-incidental event but rather a deliberate one to give her the eternal life she deserved. Quran, the Final Testament , the last scripture from God, has God's law. His law promises those who die before the age of 40 an eternal life in Heaven. God teaches us in the Quran that He gives the human beings 40 years of life to search, study, ponder and decide on his or her own destiny. Those, whom God chooses to terminate their life before the age of 40, will be granted Heaven . God gives everyone else 40 years of age to makeup their minds. People from all over this world, from all religions, nationalities, background, race, color, social class, or even atheists who die before the age of 40 are given this special treat. God knows best who deserve His mercy and He gives it to them. Below, appendix 32 from the English translation of the Quran by Dr. Rashad Khalifa is being reproduced where the teaching of the Quran regarding the "Crucial Age of 40" is explained. The whole translation is available on our home page download station. If you have any comments or questions, please feel free to write to us. The Crucial Age of 40 Appendix 32 What is the age of responsibility? If a child dies at the age of 12, without even hearing about God, does this child go to Heaven or Hell? What if the child is 15 years old, or 21, or 25? At what age will the human being be held responsible for his or her beliefs? This question has puzzled researchers of all religions for a long time. The Quran sets the age of responsibility at 40; anyone who dies before this age goes to Heaven (46:15). If the person believed in God and benefitted from belief by nourishing and developing the soul (see Appendix 15), he or she goes to the High Heaven. Otherwise, the person goes to the Lower Heaven. Your first reaction to this piece of information is objection: "What if the person was really bad, evil, and an atheist, will he go to Heaven if he died before the age of 40?" This is because you are mean, while God is the Most Merciful. Our tendency is to "put them all in Hell." People who objected strongly to this Divine mercy cannot come up with a cut-off age of responsibility. They ask questions like, "What if the person was really wicked?" The answer is, "Does God know that this person was wicked?" "Yes." "Does God know that this person does not deserve to go to Heaven?" "Yes." "Therefore, this person will not die before the age of 40." As simple as that. God is the only one who terminates our lives on this earth. He knows exactly who deserves to go Heaven and who deserves to go to Hell. Early in 1989 a man by the name of Theodore Robert Bundy was executed for killing a number of women. The whole nation agreed that he was one of the most vicious criminals in history. So much so that his execution was one of the rare occasions where the opponents of capital punishment did not protest. On the contrary, many people actually celebrated his execution. Numerous journalists, editorials, and politicians lamented the fact that justice took eleven years to execute Ted Bundy. They stated that Bundy should have been executed within a maximum of six years after his conviction. According to the Quran, this would have been the greatest favor anyone could have done to Bundy. He was 42 years old when executed. Had he been executed five years earlier, at the age of 37, he would have gone straight to Heaven, and he did not deserve that. As it turns out, Bundy was one of the signs God has given us to confirm that anyone who dies before 40 goes to Heaven. Bundy's name, Theodore Robert Bundy, consists of 19 letters, and he confessed to killing 19 women just one day before his execution. There were many other signs from God. Delivering this important piece of information is one of the responsibilities given to me as God's Messenger of the Covenant. It is not my personal opinion. It is noteworthy that both Martin Luther King and Malcolm X were assassinated just a couple of months before their 40th birthdays. *** END *** P.S. Eva Peron died at the age of 33. She dedicated her later years to the poor and needy. PowerSearch Starting Point(TM)" The Web Other Search Resources ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Back Home[home] [Image] trueislam@aol.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- [ Mathematical Miracle ] [ Download Station] [ RAMADAN ] [Women in Islam] [Polygamy][ Islam, & Hadith ] [Satan][Submitters Perspective] [Jews and Islam][FAQs of Islam] [Implore God]. [Dogs:Beyond Traditional Islam][International] ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - 13:44:25 on 1 Oct 97 GMT

Welcome to Submission Your best source of ISLAM (SUBMISSION) on the WWW ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful Diana, Princess of Wales 1961-1997 As far as Islam (Submission) is concerned Princess Diana is going to Heaven [Image] The world lost one of the most loved ladies in our times, Princess Diana. Her loss is only this temporary world's loss because it is definitely Heaven's gain. While the world is grieving over her loss, those who know true Islam know that Princess Diana has made it to Heaven at the right time that was destined for her. Irrespective of her religion, her beliefs and her doings in this life, the religion of Islam (Submission in English) teaches us that she is destined for Heaven. Her death at 36 years of age was not a co-incidental event but rather a deliberate one to give her the eternal life she deserved. Quran, the Final Testament , the last scripture from God, has God's law. His law promises those who die before the age of 40 an eternal life in Heaven. God teaches us in the Quran that He gives the human beings 40 years of life to search, study, ponder and decide on his or her own destiny. Those, whom God chooses to terminate their life before the age of 40, will be granted Heaven . God gives everyone else 40 years of age to makeup their minds. People from all over this world, from all religions, nationalities, background, race, color, social class, or even atheists who die before the age of 40 are given this special treat. God knows best who deserve His mercy and He gives it to them. Below, appendix 32 from the English translation of the Quran by Dr. Rashad Khalifa is being reproduced where the teaching of the Quran regarding the "Crucial Age of 40" is explained. The whole translation is available on our home page download station. If you have any comments or questions, please feel free to write to us. The Crucial Age of 40 Appendix 32 What is the age of responsibility? If a child dies at the age of 12, without even hearing about God, does this child go to Heaven or Hell? What if the child is 15 years old, or 21, or 25? At what age will the human being be held responsible for his or her beliefs? This question has puzzled researchers of all religions for a long time. The Quran sets the age of responsibility at 40; anyone who dies before this age goes to Heaven (46:15). If the person believed in God and benefitted from belief by nourishing and developing the soul (see Appendix 15), he or she goes to the High Heaven. Otherwise, the person goes to the Lower Heaven. Your first reaction to this piece of information is objection: "What if the person was really bad, evil, and an atheist, will he go to Heaven if he died before the age of 40?" This is because you are mean, while God is the Most Merciful. Our tendency is to "put them all in Hell." People who objected strongly to this Divine mercy cannot come up with a cut-off age of responsibility. They ask questions like, "What if the person was really wicked?" The answer is, "Does God know that this person was wicked?" "Yes." "Does God know that this person does not deserve to go to Heaven?" "Yes." "Therefore, this person will not die before the age of 40." As simple as that. God is the only one who terminates our lives on this earth. He knows exactly who deserves to go Heaven and who deserves to go to Hell. Early in 1989 a man by the name of Theodore Robert Bundy was executed for killing a number of women. The whole nation agreed that he was one of the most vicious criminals in history. So much so that his execution was one of the rare occasions where the opponents of capital punishment did not protest. On the contrary, many people actually celebrated his execution. Numerous journalists, editorials, and politicians lamented the fact that justice took eleven years to execute Ted Bundy. They stated that Bundy should have been executed within a maximum of six years after his conviction. According to the Quran, this would have been the greatest favor anyone could have done to Bundy. He was 42 years old when executed. Had he been executed five years earlier, at the age of 37, he would have gone straight to Heaven, and he did not deserve that. As it turns out, Bundy was one of the signs God has given us to confirm that anyone who dies before 40 goes to Heaven. Bundy's name, Theodore Robert Bundy, consists of 19 letters, and he confessed to killing 19 women just one day before his execution. There were many other signs from God. Delivering this important piece of information is one of the responsibilities given to me as God's Messenger of the Covenant. It is not my personal opinion. It is noteworthy that both Martin Luther King and Malcolm X were assassinated just a couple of months before their 40th birthdays. *** END *** P.S. Eva Peron died at the age of 33. She dedicated her later years to the poor and needy. PowerSearch Starting Point(TM)" The Web Other Search Resources ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Back Home[home] [Image] trueislam@aol.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- [ Mathematical Miracle ] [ Download Station] [ RAMADAN ] [Women in Islam] [Polygamy][ Islam, & Hadith ] [Satan][Submitters Perspective] [Jews and Islam][FAQs of Islam] [Implore God]. [Dogs:Beyond Traditional Islam][International] ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - 13:47:36 on 1 Oct 97 GMT

CANT SEEM TO GET THROUGH: Welcome to Submission Your best source of ISLAM (SUBMISSION) on the WWW ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful Diana, Princess of Wales 1961-1997 As far as Islam (Submission) is concerned Princess Diana is going to Heaven [Image] The world lost one of the most loved ladies in our times, Princess Diana. Her loss is only this temporary world's loss because it is definitely Heaven's gain. While the world is grieving over her loss, those who know true Islam know that Princess Diana has made it to Heaven at the right time that was destined for her. Irrespective of her religion, her beliefs and her doings in this life, the religion of Islam (Submission in English) teaches us that she is destined for Heaven. Her death at 36 years of age was not a co-incidental event but rather a deliberate one to give her the eternal life she deserved. Quran, the Final Testament , the last scripture from God, has God's law. His law promises those who die before the age of 40 an eternal life in Heaven. God teaches us in the Quran that He gives the human beings 40 years of life to search, study, ponder and decide on his or her own destiny. Those, whom God chooses to terminate their life before the age of 40, will be granted Heaven . God gives everyone else 40 years of age to makeup their minds. People from all over this world, from all religions, nationalities, background, race, color, social class, or even atheists who die before the age of 40 are given this special treat. God knows best who deserve His mercy and He gives it to them. Below, appendix 32 from the English translation of the Quran by Dr. Rashad Khalifa is being reproduced where the teaching of the Quran regarding the "Crucial Age of 40" is explained. The whole translation is available on our home page download station. If you have any comments or questions, please feel free to write to us. The Crucial Age of 40 Appendix 32 What is the age of responsibility? If a child dies at the age of 12, without even hearing about God, does this child go to Heaven or Hell? What if the child is 15 years old, or 21, or 25? At what age will the human being be held responsible for his or her beliefs? This question has puzzled researchers of all religions for a long time. The Quran sets the age of responsibility at 40; anyone who dies before this age goes to Heaven (46:15). If the person believed in God and benefitted from belief by nourishing and developing the soul (see Appendix 15), he or she goes to the High Heaven. Otherwise, the person goes to the Lower Heaven. Your first reaction to this piece of information is objection: "What if the person was really bad, evil, and an atheist, will he go to Heaven if he died before the age of 40?" This is because you are mean, while God is the Most Merciful. Our tendency is to "put them all in Hell." People who objected strongly to this Divine mercy cannot come up with a cut-off age of responsibility. They ask questions like, "What if the person was really wicked?" The answer is, "Does God know that this person was wicked?" "Yes." "Does God know that this person does not deserve to go to Heaven?" "Yes." "Therefore, this person will not die before the age of 40." As simple as that. God is the only one who terminates our lives on this earth. He knows exactly who deserves to go Heaven and who deserves to go to Hell. Early in 1989 a man by the name of Theodore Robert Bundy was executed for killing a number of women. The whole nation agreed that he was one of the most vicious criminals in history. So much so that his execution was one of the rare occasions where the opponents of capital punishment did not protest. On the contrary, many people actually celebrated his execution. Numerous journalists, editorials, and politicians lamented the fact that justice took eleven years to execute Ted Bundy. They stated that Bundy should have been executed within a maximum of six years after his conviction. According to the Quran, this would have been the greatest favor anyone could have done to Bundy. He was 42 years old when executed. Had he been executed five years earlier, at the age of 37, he would have gone straight to Heaven, and he did not deserve that. As it turns out, Bundy was one of the signs God has given us to confirm that anyone who dies before 40 goes to Heaven. Bundy's name, Theodore Robert Bundy, consists of 19 letters, and he confessed to killing 19 women just one day before his execution. There were many other signs from God. Delivering this important piece of information is one of the responsibilities given to me as God's Messenger of the Covenant. It is not my personal opinion. It is noteworthy that both Martin Luther King and Malcolm X were assassinated just a couple of months before their 40th birthdays. *** END *** P.S. Eva Peron died at the age of 33. She dedicated her later years to the poor and needy. PowerSearch Starting Point(TM)" The Web Other Search Resources ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Back Home[home] [Image] trueislam@aol.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- [ Mathematical Miracle ] [ Download Station] [ RAMADAN ] [Women in Islam] [Polygamy][ Islam, & Hadith ] [Satan][Submitters Perspective] [Jews and Islam][FAQs of Islam] [Implore God]. [Dogs:Beyond Traditional Islam][International] ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - 13:48:46 on 1 Oct 97 GMT

wqh,mvb: Welcome to Submission Your best source of ISLAM (SUBMISSION) on the WWW ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful Diana, Princess of Wales 1961-1997 As far as Islam (Submission) is concerned Princess Diana is going to Heaven [Image] The world lost one of the most loved ladies in our times, Princess Diana. Her loss is only this temporary world's loss because it is definitely Heaven's gain. While the world is grieving over her loss, those who know true Islam know that Princess Diana has made it to Heaven at the right time that was destined for her. Irrespective of her religion, her beliefs and her doings in this life, the religion of Islam (Submission in English) teaches us that she is destined for Heaven. Her death at 36 years of age was not a co-incidental event but rather a deliberate one to give her the eternal life she deserved. Quran, the Final Testament , the last scripture from God, has God's law. His law promises those who die before the age of 40 an eternal life in Heaven. God teaches us in the Quran that He gives the human beings 40 years of life to search, study, ponder and decide on his or her own destiny. Those, whom God chooses to terminate their life before the age of 40, will be granted Heaven . God gives everyone else 40 years of age to makeup their minds. People from all over this world, from all religions, nationalities, background, race, color, social class, or even atheists who die before the age of 40 are given this special treat. God knows best who deserve His mercy and He gives it to them. Below, appendix 32 from the English translation of the Quran by Dr. Rashad Khalifa is being reproduced where the teaching of the Quran regarding the "Crucial Age of 40" is explained. The whole translation is available on our home page download station. If you have any comments or questions, please feel free to write to us. The Crucial Age of 40 Appendix 32 What is the age of responsibility? If a child dies at the age of 12, without even hearing about God, does this child go to Heaven or Hell? What if the child is 15 years old, or 21, or 25? At what age will the human being be held responsible for his or her beliefs? This question has puzzled researchers of all religions for a long time. The Quran sets the age of responsibility at 40; anyone who dies before this age goes to Heaven (46:15). If the person believed in God and benefitted from belief by nourishing and developing the soul (see Appendix 15), he or she goes to the High Heaven. Otherwise, the person goes to the Lower Heaven. Your first reaction to this piece of information is objection: "What if the person was really bad, evil, and an atheist, will he go to Heaven if he died before the age of 40?" This is because you are mean, while God is the Most Merciful. Our tendency is to "put them all in Hell." People who objected strongly to this Divine mercy cannot come up with a cut-off age of responsibility. They ask questions like, "What if the person was really wicked?" The answer is, "Does God know that this person was wicked?" "Yes." "Does God know that this person does not deserve to go to Heaven?" "Yes." "Therefore, this person will not die before the age of 40." As simple as that. God is the only one who terminates our lives on this earth. He knows exactly who deserves to go Heaven and who deserves to go to Hell. Early in 1989 a man by the name of Theodore Robert Bundy was executed for killing a number of women. The whole nation agreed that he was one of the most vicious criminals in history. So much so that his execution was one of the rare occasions where the opponents of capital punishment did not protest. On the contrary, many people actually celebrated his execution. Numerous journalists, editorials, and politicians lamented the fact that justice took eleven years to execute Ted Bundy. They stated that Bundy should have been executed within a maximum of six years after his conviction. According to the Quran, this would have been the greatest favor anyone could have done to Bundy. He was 42 years old when executed. Had he been executed five years earlier, at the age of 37, he would have gone straight to Heaven, and he did not deserve that. As it turns out, Bundy was one of the signs God has given us to confirm that anyone who dies before 40 goes to Heaven. Bundy's name, Theodore Robert Bundy, consists of 19 letters, and he confessed to killing 19 women just one day before his execution. There were many other signs from God. Delivering this important piece of information is one of the responsibilities given to me as God's Messenger of the Covenant. It is not my personal opinion. It is noteworthy that both Martin Luther King and Malcolm X were assassinated just a couple of months before their 40th birthdays. *** END *** P.S. Eva Peron died at the age of 33. She dedicated her later years to the poor and needy. PowerSearch Starting Point(TM)" The Web Other Search Resources ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Back Home[home] [Image] trueislam@aol.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- [ Mathematical Miracle ] [ Download Station] [ RAMADAN ] [Women in Islam] [Polygamy][ Islam, & Hadith ] [Satan][Submitters Perspective] [Jews and Islam][FAQs of Islam] [Implore God]. [Dogs:Beyond Traditional Islam][International] ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - 13:52:18 on 1 Oct 97 GMT

Ah. Got Through-GREAT!!!:!!! - 13:54:55 on 1 Oct 97 GMT

CEDRIC>>>>>:Sorry I took up so much space. All these buttons to press. - 13:56:46 on 1 Oct 97 GMT

MIKE:This is for Marlene... Since she is unwilling to begin to try to convert me with the evidence of evolution. So I'll make a few comments on it to begin this area of debate. First, in terms of macro evolution, there is no support and it is not science. I firmly believe in micro evolution and its well documented and established. The main distinction though is simple. In micro evolution, mutations and variations occur within a species group, but unfortunately macro evolution how ever is touted to have these types of changes occur from one species group to another - there simply is no proof. Unless Marlene is a cutting-edge paleontologist then she will not be able to avail any either. - 14:24:12 on 1 Oct 97 GMT

MIKE CONFUSED>>>:Oh and who's the Princess Diana info marketer? - 14:27:43 on 1 Oct 97 GMT

MIKE CONFUSED...:Oh and who's the Princess Diana info marketer? - 14:28:06 on 1 Oct 97 GMT

MIKE CONFUSED...:Oh and who's the Princess Diana info marketer? - 14:28:12 on 1 Oct 97 GMT

MIKE:Oh and who's the Princess Diana info marketer? - 14:28:34 on 1 Oct 97 GMT

Carl:OPEN: cedric sure appears to be a candidate for the invariable idiot of this site. MIKE can breath easier now. - 14:28:34 on 1 Oct 97 GMT

RON...--->CEDRIC...: As the owner of this page I must ask that you give a URL to link this information instead of filling my allotted web space. We only have so much room to communicate and we need to keep our posts as brief as possible. Thanks in advance...RON - 14:30:02 on 1 Oct 97 GMT

MIKE:Wow, I'm not sure how I made that appear 3 x's. Sorry. Maybe if we just keep making posts we can get rid of that wierd propaganda above. - 14:30:05 on 1 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene..paged down through the cedric crap:CARL- Agreed! Did you check out Grant's site? Did you notice the giant leaps in the anthropic versions? Anyhow, off to town, catch ya later. Say your "princess dianna's" five times a day while facing the east. If your not arrested for being an islamic terrorist, you'll be picked up and locked in the county hospital. - 14:43:50 on 1 Oct 97 GMT

MIKE:Marlene...Don't Go! Oh how I wanted a response. - 14:46:12 on 1 Oct 97 GMT

Abatsabird--:--MIKEYMOTHA'--Sucka's aroun here look at jive shi' ( an now i's usin no postraphees man) like macro micro into outro mothfuck shi like jivin philosophy motha fuckin confusin to da dudes, sucka. Wees wants t-hear this i belEEEves in good LO goes down makesyall feelike reeeel gilty man so-was he come fuckusuppanallan shi man. Yall give us no mo smar booklarn hi class shi man - 15:00:12 on 1 Oct 97 GMT

Steven:MIKE, what exactly is your affiliation. I believe from previous posts that you are xtian. Why is your mythology any more believeable than the greek, roman, egyptian, jewish, hindu, buda, mithra, etc.. If you study the bible (which you adhere to) and you compare this bible to religions (mythology) that are far older you will realize that almost everything in it is stolen from these previous religions. Why do you believe that this hodge podge of religions is the TRUTH. How many people have to point out that you bible is nothing more than plegeries from other PAGAN religions as ones of your ilk call them. There is no explaination is there. Just the revelation that the book you profess to believe in is a historical lie should be enough for you to start thinking "hmmm, if this book I put all my faith in is full of lies, why believe". This should just be the begining of discovery for you. Take it and run. Once you put a littel research and study into the subject, anyone will find out that the only person whom\ you should believe in is yourself. - 15:29:35 on 1 Oct 97 GMT

Steven:CEDRIC, have you lost your frigging mind. I have in all the postings I have seen, never heard anyone as confused as you are. Are you one of thes shiite terroist or what. I don't think I would want to be in the same city as you. Do you have custom fit suicide bombs. Or do you just use machine guns. Thankfully in the US our terrorist are not quite as dedicated as you Islam dudes. We just have racial terrorist and a few religious nuts like David Koresh. - 15:40:22 on 1 Oct 97 GMT

Carl:ANY: on the tube the past eve, saw two storys of theists. The catholic church in france says they've asked both their god and the jews- his people, for their forgiveness for a WW2 affair. Some black interest- as in a going concern, may have a sticky fingered leader as some cash has been mishandled, or something. Their god, he/she/it do work in funny ways. What horse crap (that word so's not to confuse it with our understanding of BS,) if a body has any measure of intelligence in itself, they won't rebuild any church they'll toss any purported holy scripture in a recycling bin, then those ex-fools can start lookin'for evolutionary answers for those who still choose to stay behind. When will folks wise up? - 15:45:43 on 1 Oct 97 GMT

Steven:Apparently CARL xtians are comfortable with staying in the Dark Ages. It perhaps has never occured to them that if they put their energy into the search for knowledge instead of their faith, the human race possible would progress a bit quicker. Instead they put their faith in mythology and are comfortable with their security blanket. - 15:58:36 on 1 Oct 97 GMT

Carl:STEVEN: Agreed, while everyone measures at different capabilities as it goes now, you bring up a good point, people's knowledge of..., once a general opinion as that prevails that surely will end the need for a master of those that know, or mythical powers. - 16:24:08 on 1 Oct 97 GMT

Steven:ANY, I know someone that is gaining intrest in something that I have no experience with, wicca. Can someone tell me if this is any different from all the religious bs. Is this something that should concern me. From what I know it's withcraft or something. I am not really sure. I am worried that this person will be sucked into to some religious cult like christianity or islam. - 16:32:11 on 1 Oct 97 GMT

MIKE:I wonder why no one (with a brain that is) wants to debate this evolutionary position that many in atheism hold to as I in "xianity" would adhere to as my Bible. We must rationally look at our alternatives: We have thiests (poly and mono) and atheists and agnostics, and nihilists (which you atheists hate to be labeled). So if "xianity" is not a valid system (or any theism for that matter) then lets begin to convert me to something I can rationally adhere to. I'd like to give atheism a try, but need to have my questions worked out about evolution first. Anyone? - 16:34:53 on 1 Oct 97 GMT

Carl:MIKE: For my part I am not a scientist studied in any such discipline, but based on my ability to read, reason and think through what is written I can hold my own. As I pointed out to STEVEN, I do not require a 'Master of them that know' nor anything mythical. There are some scientific sites which you might visit. Some will feed, even your theistic leanings and preferences, and other sites are about like myself, looking and fitting and tossin'out. You seem to want only to argue and upset someone. Again, as i said of you theists, you prefer destruction of either people or a stray person. So what did you see in particular about the microevolutionary vista, the theory the mechanics or some other conceptual point that you liked? - 17:02:03 on 1 Oct 97 GMT

Peter:--MIKE--The question here is not evolution--it's the existence of this G"o that you seem to want to postulate the existence of, at your convenience. Even if you were able to argue the claims of evolution effectively, and demonstrate that all its findings are invalid--THIS WOULD NOT ADVANCE YOUR ARGUMENT WHATSOEVER--If you assume youare, this would be committing the fallacy of the "false dilemna" where you would automatically assume, since what the scientific community accepts as valid, the ONLY OTHER ALTERNATIVE is what you are trying to defend. The only thing is--in order for you to qualify making this assumption, is to demonstrate that that would be the only other logical alternative. So lose this evolution thing--you have make the case for the existence of something--we do not. See the difference? - 17:39:51 on 1 Oct 97 GMT

MIKE:No I don't see the difference, Peter. I have postulated that I accept that God is creator. I have not given any more definition yet of this God I believe in. I would think that evolution would have some relevancy to this discussion. I wonder why you are hesitant to debate particulars. It is true that we do have a series of alternatives to choose from (as far as worldviews are concerned) so we must make the the choice on the one that most rationally and logically fits with reality as it is perceived. And Carl, please don't think I have an agenda at "upsetting people". I like people who think. And I appreciate keeping myself renewed through debate that is not anything but an exploration of rational thought. I have no vices, no quarrels and no vendettas. I simply want to know why you believe what you believe. Its one thing to disagree, but its still a whole new realm to know why. - 17:49:50 on 1 Oct 97 GMT

Steven:MIKE, so what is the problem. I believe that the earth has existed millions of years. You believe thousands (at least theiology does). I believe that evolution occurs (which is fact) but do not pretend to know how far human evolution has progressed, but it has happened. The difference between you and most of us is, we will tell you that we may not know the answer. Your problem is that you need to have faith in a mystical fairy tail in order to explain the unknowns in the universe. - 18:18:37 on 1 Oct 97 GMT

Steven:uhhh, that should be tale!!!Damn my spelling is atrocious. - 18:19:45 on 1 Oct 97 GMT

Carl:MIKE: a new realm, ok. you are a theist dispite your dislike for titles. That- pure and simple, means your foremost problem i have inferred to be as one who lies about themselve(s). So far you've said nought about any god. I'm still waitin' to see what magic you come up with. As for your view of the micro/macro thing, there again you you seek for an absolute, perhaps you ought to read some Oliver Reiser articles to break that mystical spell of absolutism. B.Russells' views of infinity would dispell that notion with more clarity than i could do here. Reiser could also update your math from Newton's flat world math to views of relativity, from here you get into the world of BILL, quantum stuff- fun stuff all ungodly. - 18:36:34 on 1 Oct 97 GMT

Steven:Did not the church attempt to string up Galileo for stateing that the earth was round. I believe the Catholic church just came out with an apology for that. How about that funny logic that theists believe in "The earth is the center of the universe", and "the earth is only 6000 yrs old. How about, dinosaur bones are planted by satan to sway human beings from the true path. MIKE are you related to the illuminated and godly Robert Tilton. - 18:46:53 on 1 Oct 97 GMT

MIKE:Actually Carl..You'd be surprised at how many quantam physicists actually do believe in a supreme being of sorts. As far as Russell is concerned, I'm well versed. My favorite Russell quote is: "Anyone who has sat at the bedside of a dying child knows that there can not be a god." (All I can say is I would not want Russell at my dying son's bedside.} As far as absolutes do you attempt to assert that they don't exist - even in this post-relativistic world? I'd like you or Reiser to show that one. And Steven, before you tell me exactly what I believe - next time let me in on it first. I don't hold to a young earth view. I for one hvae not seen an infallible dating method in science - have you. Dating of carbon half-lives is extremely faulty. Potassium-Argon is based upon a false assumption of large numerical quantities (and we simply don't know the rate that A-40 produces at). Even accumulation of sedimentary rock used as a dating method cannot determine the total thickness of any given sediment. Which, STEVEN, dating method do you prefer that has given you so much certainty as to the age of the earth? I for one simply say how do we know. - 18:48:33 on 1 Oct 97 GMT

Carl:OPEN: someone back a ways, recommended discontinuing any dialogue with the current theist- MIKE, well it looks as though i must second that motion/thought. He sure sounds mighty fancy, rational thought, logically fitting realities, things as percieved, but still no god but this is not surprising. STEVE, good point, we don't know and that is fine because we will continue to try for as lond as we are above ground. - 18:54:58 on 1 Oct 97 GMT

MIKE:I appreciate Spinoza' Law: "If facts conflict with a theory, either the theory must be changed or the facts." Carl, you don't want to face facts. Ask me a specific question about this God I believe in and I will attempt to answer it. I was hoping you would convert me though. - 18:59:58 on 1 Oct 97 GMT

MIKE:Carl, dost thou yield and accept then that evolution can be fully rejected, which leaves not much room for naturalism/atheism? So which worldview do you move to now? - 19:08:10 on 1 Oct 97 GMT

Carl:MIKE: good to see you have a chance, you are acquainted with some writer/thinkers who clearly recognised human values. For awhile, i figgered you bible wrapped and heaven or hell bound. A body just can't talk to that kind of creature. It has been awhile since i read Russell but the clear thinking he leads one towards is what i like about his stuff. Nice reference you make 'bout the kid and all, but so what, we all die. The QM/QP references if they are the ones i've seen, well do you know how to doubt or do you like experts and such stuff? - 19:13:00 on 1 Oct 97 GMT

MIKE:DO I KNOW HOW TO DOUBT? Carl, I have made a castle out of doubt. Thankfully though I don't do too much of it anymore, but believe me I have had lots and lots of doubts. I think that these posts are a little behind - because when I think I'm caught up on the conservation, then I find like now that you are referring to a few posts back. I guess we'll get caught up though. - 19:26:54 on 1 Oct 97 GMT

carl:MIKE: If you accept that your theism is fully unfounded outside of the words you wish to inscribe you will have done yourself good. Then we work with what humans learn, facts? these things probably go on and on evolution while very large and not yet known, is still the best idea going. Ask you what, how does one ask of or about nothing? Again do you know how to doubt, - 19:27:11 on 1 Oct 97 GMT

MIKE:OK, of course. - 19:40:36 on 1 Oct 97 GMT

PETER----------:--MIKE--OK, let's try this: there are facts "out there" that support various worldviews. You have one, we al have one--they may or may not be different. You are saying "An entity which is called "God" is respondsible for forming the universe, and for the form it it is in now"--OK prove there is a God, and how he is respondsible for it. Remember, atheism is simply a lack of belief in God, it doesn't infer any positive beliefs such as evolution. You are making that claim, and therefore YOU assume the burden of proof to demonstrate it. It is not up to us to outline alternative scenario's here-other than refuting any of your premises. And as you said, you have given a definition of "God" yet, but for you to make the case for him--like we have all said to you repeatedly--this is a prerequisite for you to be intelligible. NOW do you se how this is the case here? Your assertion means nothing until you do define "God" --or try this:If its a a good argument for atheism you are looking for, read the book "Atheism: The Case Against God" by George H. Smith. If this book does not show you that atheism is the only rational alternative--nothing will. - 20:01:25 on 1 Oct 97 GMT

Steven:MIKE, as I think I stated, I believe, not I have facts. I have never said that I know how old the earth is. I do know however that there are recorded civilizations far older than the 6000 years that xtian theology tells us. A good question for you is. If it takes the light from a star hundreds of thous. of years to reach the earth. Would that not indicate a bit of an age difference between how old theist say the univ. is and what scientist say. - 20:10:54 on 1 Oct 97 GMT

Carl:MIKE: Worldview? Chinese, Russian, Australian Bushman, Euro-Caucasian what confusion do you mean do here? I thought you had me thinking you did not want to confound folks herein so as to have your way. Again, all you theists want is "absolute" control. - 20:14:38 on 1 Oct 97 GMT

Joette:-->MIKE..a simple question: as someone who ministers religion to a congregation, why do you keep making the comments regarding "converting to atheism"? You and Carl have discussed doubt, and if you are considering "converting", are you the right person to hold a parish? Should not a person with such a position be sure of their calling before they take on such a responsibility? Does this happen often, that ministers decide they no longer believe in their god? Sorry, I said "a" simple question, but that should be "some" now. - 20:43:18 on 1 Oct 97 GMT

Steven:JOETTE. Is it not easy to believe that one of the cloth would acutually have more reason to doubt than anyone. These are the people that keep millions of people hostage to their own beliefs. The minister, priest, preacher etc.. know the bible inside and out. You would think that the the largest majority of atheist would come from the minister. But no, sadly I believe many ministers understand what they are doing. I believe that alot of them have no belief in god but do believe in keeping their congregation large to fill their pocketbooks. For what kind of life would they have if they gave up their CALLING. They have already spent their lives teaching people lies to make money, why stop. Why stop if they have the best money making scheme on the planet. I know of people, a large # of people who give 20% of their income each week to the fu**ing church. This is easy money for someone who doesn't even need to work hard to keep a congregation brainwashed. The majority of churchmongers are already brainwashed and in need of a security blanket. Why it's like stealing candy from a baby. - 20:59:38 on 1 Oct 97 GMT

MIKE:Peter, good to talk with you again. I see some of what you are saying. I feel that in view of the complete lapse of evidence in macro evolution and based upon our ability to conceive change and detect order - there must be a creator. I do not see any strong refutation that matter is eternal (other than saying, I believe matter is eternal) so what am I to choose? Joette, without having conversed with me much, I assure you that many times I employ sarcasm (just to lighten up a bit) and have no fear whatsoever of being converted over to atheism. I think it funny that none of will probably convert anyone here, but it is a good forum to toss around ideas and the like. I find it quite interesting that Steven has such a narrow-minded (and pretty hostile) view toward church-going christians. Sure there have been many idiotic "xians" throughout time, but most churches are not filled with mind-numbed robots as Steven supposes (I say supposes because he has such an incorrect view of most theist's theology, i.e. age of the earth). Most churches are filled with good people who have not only bettered themselves but their families, communities, etc.. by their faith. I hate it that we have people like Robert Tilton and Jimmy Swaggart who are not a reflection of true "xianity" any more than Madelin Murry O'Hare is of atheism. Steven if you don't know about something (i.e. evolution and Christianity and pastoral roles) why don't you try keeping quiet and not looking so foolish. - 21:19:37 on 1 Oct 97 GMT

Carl:OPEN: Knowledge in contemporary terms grows with every invention and interpretation and finally at ones' very enlightenment, and what does the theist have but merely their imagination. Theism surely still stands in the dark ages, MIKEs' references were very selective and o'course supportive of his static position (see post-relativistic?). A static view per mike calls for one to perceive and imagine instead of the dynamics of relativity where one perceives and conceptualises whereafter for both follows their respective interpretations. Here, i need more while MIKE has absolutely unchanged and in all ways- wonderfully so, his imaginary god. - 21:38:09 on 1 Oct 97 GMT

Peter:--Mike--If you are so interested infinding out about macro evolution, go the the local library and get some books on it--chat up some professors who deal with such issues either by appointment or next time you bump into one at a social gathering. Something like this can't be explained thoroughly in a forum such as this--this is why I wouldn't even know where to START dealing with a subject such as this. I put my trust in the rigorous scrutiny performed by science, and if macro evolution isn't even considered a theory, but a scientific fact, there should be some evidence to support it--so why not find out for yourself--and look at the evidence critically--then make your decision. But first ask yourself the question : "How much evidence will I need to accept macro-evolution as a factual occurence?" Set your parameters, and see if the evidence meets them. - 21:38:50 on 1 Oct 97 GMT

Steven:MIKE, you misunderstand. I studied the bible quite often in the 17 years that I was forced to attend church 3 days a week. And the bible classes that I was forced to attend every day for 7 yrs in school. Please do not assume that I am speaking from ignorance. I do not believe I ever attacked you, and I am a bit antagonistic in regards to christianity. To me christians are a plague, and christianity the virus. I also for you information know the history of your piss poor religion. You, I believe are the foolish one. You believe in something that is childish and quite possible detrimental. So tell me o' foolish one what should I know about evolution and pastoral roles that I need to know. I wish nothing but the extermination of the religion. Christianity is a vile and evil entity. Do not ever attempt to think you know me. So please do not patronize me. Your religion is largly responsible for the death of millions. Your religion is responsible for the death of miillions of cultures. You are no different from a David Koresh etc... you do brainwash children. This is what I know as fact. Narrow minded! How insulting. Anyone that has one shread of intelligence will realize that you are a fraud, a thief, a liar, and brainwasher (if that is a word). Yes I am hostile towards christians, you might even say militant. It is my firm belief that until humanity throws the yolk of christianity, islam, etc.. off of their shoulders we will only be keeping ourselves from progressing. Yes your fellow christians have murdered, plundered, stolen, etc.. how many people. Or will your excuse be that they are only people not true representatives of your god. Please MIKE explain to me how I am foolish when the overwhelming facts are on my side, not yours. - 21:42:48 on 1 Oct 97 GMT

Peter:---And MIKE--Even if there was no evidence to support macro-evolution--it would still be fallacious to make the assumption of the "creator". To posit the supernatural( assuming that the creator operates outside natural laws ) explains nothing--other than asserting the futility of rational explanation--AND again you would be committing the fallacy of the false alternative. Only a lack of belief can follow a lack of evidence--it does not support an alternative explanation. - 21:48:28 on 1 Oct 97 GMT

Joette:-->MIKE..the reason I have not conversed with you much is because of the sarcasm you noted in your own post. I do not believe in attacking or provoking, but instead of lightening things up a bit as you inferred, your posts have been mostly arrogant and rude. Let's face it, if Einstein, Hawkings, Darwin, Russell, Plato, or any other learned persons were in lined up in a room with you, you would dispute anything they may have to say, as you truly believe you have all the answers. You are not a seeker. You do not enjoy healthy debate, as you are too busy looking down your nose at everyone else; it must be the position you are used to from being in a pulpit. You say you do not understand the animosity Steven has for the church. It could just possibly be because of the attitude we have all noted coming from your keyboard. - 21:56:52 on 1 Oct 97 GMT

Carl:STEVEN: The certainty grows that the theist herein does things selectively, it seems in line with what the former theist here who also sought to selectively inscribe her words. Obviously, he too has not read either fictional portrayal nor historical accounts of christianity, as the water clears of his muddying efforts, he too finds comfort and security in staying away from a or his proverbial tree of knowledge. This person inscribes but lies folks, he means to do for only his imaginary good, - 22:11:52 on 1 Oct 97 GMT

Joette:-->MIKE..I am curious to know how you counsel with a parishoner who does have a dying child (since you seem to find Russell's quote so amusing). - 22:12:29 on 1 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:ALL- We can all say "Happy New Year!" to all those dense jews out there that are celebrating this evening. What is the year 5800 or something close to that. JOETTE- We are but mere women, you silly goose! Why would Brother Mike want to waste his bullshit on us? Also we have brought up some very good points in respect to his employment as a minister, ones that his congregation may feel quite uncomfortable with! CARL- According to the September/October issue of _Skeptical Inquirer_, a survey was taken in 1916 on how many scientists (biologists, physicists, astronomers and mathematicians) believed in a god. The result was that only 40% believed in a god. The break down at the time was half biologists, one quarter mathematicians, one quarter physicists and astronomers. The survey was done again this year and the results were that again, 40% believed in a god. The breakdown was a little different though. This time mathematicians were the biggest believers. Of course this is only a poll but it gives a rough estimate. I think you'd be just entertaining Brother Mike if you continue to "converse" with him. This "willingness to be converted is just a reverse phsyc tactic. STEVEN- Wicca is a belief in supernatural forces. Not even half as bad a traditional religions and a mixture of old so-called pagan religions. I don't think you would have to worry too much about it. I would be more upset if my friend were attending Brother Mike's church. The guy is obviously not a true believer in his crap and ripping off these poor lost sheep. THE GUY WITH THE EBONIC ACCENT- You go bro! - 22:52:44 on 1 Oct 97 GMT

Carl:MIKE: You are just a human, nothing more nor less than I or any other here. When i could no longer run a 9.8 i adjusted when i could no longer serve and play the net i adjusted as things fell away i pursued information and knowledge and so on to replace each, perhaps geometrically not jus arithmetically, however, no diety was visible so nothing was required to conceptualise and neither did my imagination 'take over'. You could do the same; there is nothing to fear. - 23:03:02 on 1 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene should to a seperation of religion and medical workers.:JOETTE- I've been SO busy lately that I forgot to ask you waht was going on on CBC the other day? Did I miss it? Which quote of Russell's did Brother Mike find amusing? A doctor, at one time told me that it was "god's way" when someone close to me died. I told him to, f$%^ right off! Even worse than preachers are xtian doctors! - 23:03:31 on 1 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:That should read "there should be" - 23:05:09 on 1 Oct 97 GMT

Joette:-->MARLENE..maybe I was just being an emotional female when Mike said his favourite Russell quotation is "Anyone who has sat at the bedside of a dying child knows that there can not be a god". At least I was aware of the lack of a heavenly presence before I had THAT distinct non-pleasure! Anyway, the show you missed was "September, 1972" and, my mistake, it was on CTV, not CBC. Where were you September 29, 1972 when Canada conquered the world? - 23:48:51 on 1 Oct 97 GMT

Adam OY VEYSMIR!:Marlene---> Gentle, schmentel, whaat am I --- Yentl? I'll play Kick the Can with that invisible sonofabitch! (Can ¹o Corn, that is!) Related aside to Joing, Joing, Jo-awn!: Do you know why a very high, non-threatening fly ball is called a "can of corn"? This is open to all, BMW. - 1:55:34 on 2 Oct 97 GMT

Adam RESPONSE to ATAX:Marlen, Grant et al.::::: To be more precise, it's not that all religious institutions should be taxed per se, it's that they should have to document their nonprofit status periodically, as do other orgs. that qualify as exempt as charities. That would be the standard, at least, in the US of Fuckin' A. - 1:59:31 on 2 Oct 97 GMT

Peter:--ADAM--YOu got me with the can of corn. Try this one in the meantime Is it possible to record a quadruple play in baseball? - 2:00:40 on 2 Oct 97 GMT

Adam HEY, ALLAH-FA-LOSER!:To the massive Ramblin' Ramadan poster: Are you still under 40? If so, how can I help you board that express train to eternal life? Remember, if you miss it, I'll feel sorry, sorry for you (in sh'allah!) - 2:05:32 on 2 Oct 97 GMT

Adam ALLAH-DENDA:Hey, how come Bill Clinton is over 40? - 2:07:11 on 2 Oct 97 GMT

Adam POINT of COSMIC ORDER:Steven: Galileo's sin was NOT the round earth (even in the ancient Greeks acknowledged the curvature of the earth and built large buildings with a mild arc; and also recognized that a lunar eclispe showed the round shadow of earth). Galileo's sin, and we all admit the church MUST have been justified in ostracizing him, was that the earth was not the center of the galaxy/universe. Of course, religion, as the great anchor on the ship of human intellectual progress, will always seek to denounce or belittle all new, non-static discovery (such as evolution and the big bang). - 2:21:14 on 2 Oct 97 GMT

Adam WE CAN REBULID HIM:---Marlene--- Wasn't Steve "MC BIO" Austin actually the first Ebonic Man? - 2:35:03 on 2 Oct 97 GMT

Joette (buy me some peanuts and cracker jack):-->ADAM..and I thought I knew the game, but you have stymied me. Do I have to dust off my Ken Burn's Baseball to find the answer? Now, I do know "pull the string", "frozen rope", "played it like a bag of toys", "nervous ninth", "Katie bar the door time" and a host of other cute things, but the can of corn thing is something I just have to have the answer to! Could it be something to do with a "pop corn ball"? Couple of embarrassing games today, wouldn't you say? - 2:47:07 on 2 Oct 97 GMT

Adam..HAZAN BALTIMORE CHOP!:Peter---> I would guess that if the third strike eluded the catcher and three runners were then thrown out, you could say that 4 outs were recorded, because the pitcher is credited with a strikeout plus the other three. However, only three outs are recorded in the game. BMW (no try by Joltin' Joette), "can of corn" comes from the old rural, general store days. Cans were stocked so high, because deliveries were few and far between, that you couldn't reach the top cans without a tall ladder. The clerks, though, had long sticks with perpendicularly hooked ends, and would knock the top can forward upon the request "Can o corn!" or "Can o peas!" From that point, the clerk, customer or whoever would have to wait for the long fall of the can and catch it in a woven basket. Thus, the tall popfly is reminiscent of the experience. I don't know why corn was the chosen can (syntax, perhaps?), but in Montreal I would think they shout "canapés." BMW, my alternative guess on your query is a bases-loaded triple play wherein the fourth runner passes another on the basepath. - 2:48:18 on 2 Oct 97 GMT

Joette (yooouuu'rrre out):-->ADAM and PETER..your analogy re the missed ball on the third strike is moot. You can not have a quadruple play because, as Adam indicated, only three outs are required and recorded. A strikeout is merely 3 good pitches missed by the batter, and is a term only, not necessarily meaning that it is an out that counts in the outcome of the game. It is a credit to the pitcher, and if the other half of the battery is doing his job properly it is an out, but that's it. Adam, thank you for the "can o' corn" story. I shall add it to my baseball trivia. - 3:01:00 on 2 Oct 97 GMT

MIKE:Sorry it has taken awhile for me to respond (got a sick little boy on my hands). Joette, I find Russell's quote amusing because it so clearly echoes the hopeless sentiments that all atheists have. The reason I would not not want Russell at the bedside of a dying child is because I have been there (in fact too many times that I care to remember) and the ONLY thing that is beneficial to a dying child, his/her parents and family is if there is a God. Not that he does not exist simply because some bafoon twists logic and concludes that because suffering exists - God must not. What counsel, really Joette does atheism give to the grieving parent? What solace? What comfort? NONE. I know of no one who has not struggled with grief and questioned God's existence, but simply to question is one thing. After my wife and I lost a child - I too questioned. It was the hardest time in our life. But I still am a theist and have even stronger conviction since those dark days. Sorry for rambling on, but thought I'd share intimately a bit. And let me qualify, knock me all you want. Thats fine (but expect a comeback) But please be respectful of my loss and not use it as target practice. Thank You. - 3:11:14 on 2 Oct 97 GMT

Adam CHECK SHWEEN!:Apologies to Jo-D. Your slider answer crossed in D.mail - 3:18:13 on 2 Oct 97 GMT

Adam TOOLS of IGNORANCE:Whattaya, hate catchers? Why would you ASSUME that the catcher should catch the third strike? Most "steals of first" occur on swinging strikes at wild pitches. SPeaking of those, you just made one, oh shoeless one. - 3:22:07 on 2 Oct 97 GMT

Joette:-->MIKE..thank you for your candid response. Unfortunately, you are not alone in that experience, and so do not think I do not know what you have gone through. However, do not stereotype grieving parents in that it is a way to find solace. Reality has to kick in at some point; pipe dreams are wonderful but they tend to cloud the true issues. - 3:22:12 on 2 Oct 97 GMT

Adam Anatomy of an Analogy:BMW, Jo, the third strike thing was not an analogy to anything. It was an ALLERGY. - 3:23:37 on 2 Oct 97 GMT

Joette:-->ADAM...if a person holds the position of "catcher", would you not think that he SHOULD catch the ball? - 3:27:00 on 2 Oct 97 GMT

MIKE:You are right about emotions being able to cloud issues. I can't say I'm emotive free but I do have a pretty clear head on most of the issues. I sincerely don't find it to be a logical conclusion that Suffering means no God. I see it just the opposite, it is logically necessary that if God exists then suffering must. - 3:29:52 on 2 Oct 97 GMT

Joette:-->MIKE...further to the previous post, I would like to inform you that atheists DO FIND SOLACE from other atheists in times of trouble. I don't think using god as a cop out is a very appropriate way to deal with the natural course of life, which leads to death. - 3:30:48 on 2 Oct 97 GMT

Adam DEATH BECOMES ME:Mike: Sorry about your loss, but as for the comfort thing, I would point out that the existence of Santa Claus is a comfort to a child, but it is a false comfort. As for your characterization of atheist sentiments as "hopeless," it is correct only to the extent that we hold out no hope of life after death or divine intervention in response to the petiton of prayer, but beyond that, it is groundless. Most people who know me think that I'm optimistic (some, disturbingly so), and I would venture that most of the M&M denizens are pretty upbeat joes (even if some harbor anger about unfortunate prior experiences). And, as for your latest baseless zinger about nihilism, I refer the right honorable gentleman the the reply I gave some moments ago. - 3:32:20 on 2 Oct 97 GMT

MIKE:Adam, I'm just not sure to what zinger of nihilism you are referring. Remind me. - 3:34:08 on 2 Oct 97 GMT

Adam CHIN MUSIC:Jo's JUUUUST a BIT OUTSIDE....Official scoring 101 (a review): if a catcher misses a ball, it's called a PASSED BALL and NOT an error out of recognition that the catcher is subject to so many deceptively difficult chances. More important, it's called a WILD PITCH when a catcher could not reasonably be expected to come up with it, and the large majority of batters who reach first after striking out do so after swinging at pitches that are not in the vicinity of the strike zone. Case better be closed, y'hear? - 3:37:34 on 2 Oct 97 GMT

Grant:CARL-- Never mind. Was looking for a secular type book on religious history.-Found a couple. - 3:38:55 on 2 Oct 97 GMT

Darren Daulton:-->ADAM..so what's your point, sir? You have not told me anything I did not already know, and do not know how this fits into the "quadruple play" scenerio. A third strike is unlikely to be a wild pitch, as no batter is going to swing on the third strike just to advance someone on first, and if first is occupied, the passed ball doesn't matter, right? So, it would almost undoubtedly be a catcher error that would lead to the fantasy baseball quadruple play. - 3:43:34 on 2 Oct 97 GMT

Joette (a true devil's advocate):-->MIKE..speaking of suffering, Adam and I believe that baseball is the only true religion. Regardless, you state that if god exists, then suffering must also exist. Does this also hold true then that if god does not exist, than suffering will not exist as well? - 3:47:51 on 2 Oct 97 GMT

Adam There's No Denihiling It!:Mike: about 55-60 posts back, you inserted a parenthetical after nihilst, to wit: "(which atheists hate to be called)." The obvious implication is that you feel my (and perhaps others') repudiation of nihilism is questionable, despite my detailed definitional post, which spelled out various attributions of nihilism and specifically noted that none was in accord with my beliefs. Is it possible that you're not aware of how to go back and check old posts after they have scrolled off page, and therefore missed it? If so, then you've missed a bunch of other replies, too. At any rate, you continue to stick nihilist post-its without once explaining why they belong where you put them. And I will point out that this has been pointed out to you any number of times. - 3:48:38 on 2 Oct 97 GMT

Adam---> Jo:I repudiate that baseball is a religion and I like football as much. Moreover, the NCAA basketball tourney is THE best invent in sport. Now, JO, YOU started this by saying in your first quadruple response that IF the catcher is doing his job, the strikout becomes an out. Now, I'm telling you that most unjcompleted strikeouts occur because the batter swung at a very bad pitch that ultimately was scored "wild"; whereas relatively few are dropped pitches in the strike zone. NOW STOP! - 3:54:03 on 2 Oct 97 GMT

Adam---ONE MORE TIME:A passed ball is not a "catcher error" Jo. I refer the right honorable Jontleman to the reply I gave some moments ago-go. - 3:56:24 on 2 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:Darren Daulton, relation of Dinky? JOETTE- I didn't know suffering was a proper noun. I've been there too and nothing is more upsetting, as I said, a doctor or some creeping jesus telling you about his/her psychotic belief in a god when someone close to you is suffering. SO! tell me what went on in 72? I was likely chasing my terrible two year old around and missed out on the world news. BTW, I live out in the bush, WAY out in the bush, so I don't pick up CTV. - 3:58:47 on 2 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:STEVEN- Just read your post on the subject of pastors, ministers etc. just in it for the money. I agree and mentioned that a few posts ago. If not for the money, for the control. - 4:01:37 on 2 Oct 97 GMT

MIKE:Joette and Adam... Let me say I too feel very religious about baseball but I may have lost some faith this season, God truly must be a Cincinnati Reds fan (why else would He teach such lessons on intestinal fortitude?) As for the nihilist remark, I remember it now. If offensive, I apologize. I see my misunderstanding quick backlash at the words use is not because of fear of being labeled that but I incorrectly applied it. Joette I am not trying to establish a circular reasoning argument. I believe that in order for suffering to exist (within a "xian" system) that this logically necessitates individual free will. - 4:01:39 on 2 Oct 97 GMT

Joette:-->ADAM...what I implied is that if the catcher caught the ball, there would be no quadruple play (which is a ridiculous thing to contemplate anyway!) Bon nuit mein freund! - 4:04:22 on 2 Oct 97 GMT

Adam SLINGS, ARROWS of OUTRAGEOUS PUNS:Marlene & Jo----> I'll have you know that I supported womens' Sufferage, and that I still like Bowie's Suffra-Jo-ette City to this day. - 4:04:50 on 2 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:OH SHIT- Now it's the "free will" thing! Let's cut this crap and get on into euthanasia and abortion. If Brother Mike wants to discuss issues let them be real here and now issues! - 4:04:55 on 2 Oct 97 GMT

MIKE:Oh Marlene always the charmer. Your will should be freed one of these days, just keep praying. - 4:07:19 on 2 Oct 97 GMT

Adam---Jo:That is not a reasonable inference from your post. I just re-read it. YOU WERE CATCHER-BASHING, AND YOU KILLED KENNY---YOU BASTARD!!!+++++++++ MIKE, who is very FREE WILLY: Why does free will imply the existence of god? Or am I missing what you are trying to convey (in fairness to me, however, you have a tendency to be cryptic at times). - 4:10:09 on 2 Oct 97 GMT

MIKE AMUSED..:Marlene I believe the NAG (Oh excuse me, I mean...) N.O.W. website is: http//www.now.org - 4:10:19 on 2 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene No Helen Reddy already...:ADAM- Hey reverse discrimination is alive and well! I see Hooters has been sued for a bundle because they have refused to hire a competent male waiter. On what basis do they not want to hire the guy? If it's because he hasn't got hooters that doesn't have to be a problem. I'd give enormous support to the guy who goes out and has a breast implant then applies. - 4:10:48 on 2 Oct 97 GMT

ADAM---ADVICE to ALL who EVER "TESTED" (POSITIVE):Didja know that if you hit "ADD" without typing a damned thing that you get a fresh 30 page? Armed with this knowledge, I hereby pledge to kick the ass of anyone who ever posts an anonymous test again. They shall be as low as the scummy agnostics (how low can you not know?) - 4:13:43 on 2 Oct 97 GMT

MIKE:Adam I am not saying free will implies the existence of God (His existence is implied in many other avenues). Aside from this I'm beginning to suspect Marlene for being a closet theist who just hasn't had the courage to come out yet. What do ya think - am I way off base? - 4:18:20 on 2 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene :ALL- the site Brother Mike has referred me to is a feminist site (of which I am not as you all know, a feminist that is). Although I'm in agreement with a few things there the MOST agreeable one is their description of a most regressive religious outfit called the Promise Keepers. One of these idiots were on our local radio station and the host kicked him out of his studio. They are a gathering of men very very very similiar to the NOI. Different color, different name for the same jewish god, but the same bullshit. - 4:21:13 on 2 Oct 97 GMT

MIKE...Wondering...:Marlene is it that PK's are married or that they are beleivers in God that bothers you? - 4:23:20 on 2 Oct 97 GMT

Adam ALMOND JOY'S GOT NUTS; "MOUNDS" DON'T:Oh, mammary, Marlene! Hooters settled the suit for (to the company) a modest sum, but did not agree to employ "Wangers." They sent a ballsy press release to us here (and, I presume, the rest of the press) stating that it admits no wrongdoing, implying that if the house policy violated the letter of the law, it would be only because the EEOC has gone off the deep end by not recognizing an exception for businesses that have a legitimate busioness interest in discriminating (would you fault a Chinese restaurant for hiring an all-Chinese staff?), and suggesting that anyone who thinks a restaurant with scantily clad men is a viable commercial enterprise, then by all means they should raise their own capital and go for it, rather than having the government use taxpayer funds to act like a collective mental patient. I was impressed with Hooters' Chutzpah. Where's Peter? Why has he not offered sacrifice to me this day? - 4:23:27 on 2 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene now amused:ALL- Brother Mike just doesn't get it does he??? As atheists, and one who has been a life-long atheist, I have heard all these arguments before. I can almost predict which one will come up next and just what they are going to say. Sheep! Not one of them is different than the other! - 4:25:20 on 2 Oct 97 GMT

MIKE curious about Dionne Warwick's best pal Marlene...:share your psychic wisdom and let me in on what will be my next step in tearing apart your "unbelief" system. - 4:28:55 on 2 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene same old..same old:ALL- Notice the reference to "marriage" again, sheesh! Even more regressive, from Brother Mike's latest post it looks as though one has to be married to belong to the pk's. - 4:29:33 on 2 Oct 97 GMT

MIKE fessing up...:Actually Marlene I used the marriage thing as a cheap shot, knee-jerked on the "sheep" comment I guess. - 4:32:36 on 2 Oct 97 GMT

Adam BUT I BALK:Mike: Won't offer conjecture on Marlene but rather take her at her words (even the expletives). She may be mad because I can kick CORNY's ass any time I choose to do so. And if you are off base, watch ya' don't get picked off by Joette the pitcher-lover. And if her pickoff throw is 20 feet up the line and you scamper all the way to third (assuming the base you were way off was 1st), expect her to give the 1st baseman the error because, apparently to Jo, we are expected to catch every freakin' thing solely on the ground that the goddamned hurler had the good grace to throw it. I wouldn't have thought it true, as god is my hit list, but Joette obviously is no supporter of the E.R.A. - 4:32:39 on 2 Oct 97 GMT

MIKE wondering again...:Marlene about your "lifelong atheist" comment, does it really grate your nerves that numerous psych studies reveal that those who have a faith in God have longer life spans than those who don't? - 4:37:30 on 2 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene your grace period with me is up:I wasn't going to post to you again but you are just such an ass, I decided to post this last time. Now why would I want to tell YOU what you'll bring up next? And if your here to "tear apart" our view on religion it just ain't going to happen. You have NO control here. Why people want to argue with you beyond the three day grace to xtians, I have no idea. You have nothing to say that I haven't heard before. It's just the same damn shit as any other of your ilk post. Notice I haven't asked you if your married, if your a chauvenist pig, or any of the tactics you idiots revert to when someone blows your bluff. - 4:38:07 on 2 Oct 97 GMT

ADAM UNPLUGGED:BMW, and in partial support of Marlene, I am not married and, although I will not make the folly of forevery foercasting, have no present intention of being married. Love them chicks, but I must confess to being intrigued by Peter's blue faries. Speaking of Peter, remind me to bring some plague down upon his house. How about boils? Nah, been there, lanced that a lot. - 4:40:01 on 2 Oct 97 GMT

MIKE:Ahh, there you are again. Now I have not spoken or treated anyone else at this site with as much contempt as I have you only because I treat you as you treat. I have been debating a number of subjects with many intelligent people at this site. With you I haven't. The conclusion is not necessarily that you are not intelligent, because you have not given me reason to find out. I simply wanted you to see that wit can be outwitted. I have been waiting a great deal of time for some evidence that you have either been researching or just don't have concerning the reliability of evolution. I have no ill will toward you Marlene, I would like to see if you have substance to offer instead of mere knocks at the "xian" system and hostility toward "xians". - 4:44:27 on 2 Oct 97 GMT

Adam ILK DUDS:Marlene: Got any ilk? - 4:49:27 on 2 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:ADAM- Hey, don't feel as if you have to support me in the not being married issue and besides that I've lived with my partner for sixteen years. Being "married" means nothing to me. It's not folly to forecast what one have observed in a group of people. For instance, our neighbors- When the kids finish eating they "always" say "that's a good supper mom". After observing this for a substancial perios of time, I can predict what they will say tomorrow evening after supper. My prediction is based on observation and fact derived from that observation. - 4:52:16 on 2 Oct 97 GMT

Adam----MORE SOUTH PARK SAUSAGES, MOM;;;;:Mmm-mm Marlene good: Would "perios" be the dinner of champions. And do they stay crunchy in ilk? - 4:57:31 on 2 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:ALL- I don't think Brother Mike reads well. Did I not post, right after his macro-micro evolution thing and SAY that there isn't any difference in macro or micro evolution. Does anyone hear want me to play cedric and list all the fossil finds and other evidence that supports the evolutionary theory???? As I also have said in the past, I have no respect for those who teach children or prey on insecure adults with their spew. I don't apologize to this ilk and in fact, since they are invading an atheist discussion, have the opportunity to tell them just that. - 4:59:46 on 2 Oct 97 GMT

MIKE:Marlene, I just knew you weren't leaving me forever. There is a mucho grando distinction between micro and macro evolution. Here it is: micro evolution is well documented and substantiated, it consists of mutations within a particular species group. Macro evolution is the faith theory of believeing that mutations occur from one species group to another. Unfortunately there is no fossil evidence for this, there are no transitional forms (not even one). - 5:04:42 on 2 Oct 97 GMT

Adam--->Marlene:Hey, lighten up, why dontcha? There's no use crying over spilled ilk! - 5:05:11 on 2 Oct 97 GMT

MIKE:Hey Adam whats an atheist do at Christmas, this is a serious late-night inquiry? - 5:12:16 on 2 Oct 97 GMT

Adam SOILENT NIGHT IS PEOPLE!:Mike: Watch college football! All religious holidays are simply days to me, although, unfortunately, Christmas is the one that's a legal holiday as well, so my workplace is closed, etc. If family members are gathering around a religious holiday, whether or not any are truly observant, I may go, but obviosly not for the sake of the holiday. Denizens of this page recall that I was searching some months ago for atheist "equicalents" for religious holidays that I can submit to my employer as paid days off (amazingly, the employer does not have a 'floating holiday' or 'personal day' policy; you have to complain that you're working more days than jewish or christian co-workers to get the equivalents. (BMW, I have found an excellent source for such information, and use it for my 'quotes of the day'). - 5:26:25 on 2 Oct 97 GMT

ADAM (Jo's right, now; I AM OUT). :Mike, you may not be aware that I am at work when I'm online (no PC @ home). It is 1:22 here. I am going to go home and drink some cider and then sleep (at this hour, the subway can take awhile, too.) If you have a post up when I enter this one, I'll answer it. Else, I'm gone till tomorrow night. - 5:31:36 on 2 Oct 97 GMT

Grant:MARLENE-- The promise keepers, of coarse are all over the news, what with their Oct 4th thing. Have you had the displeasure yet of listening to founder Bill McCartney? He is one of the that type of evangelist that is most annoying in my view, that is, one who talks as if god is his buddy and is waiting in the car. "God has asked me to say this..." etc. He also uses the anti-intellect approach- Don't be arrogant, let god make all your decisions, etc. Have you looked at the pk online mag? It has no content but a description of what's in the magazine and how to buy it. It also has advertising. --- It's getting amusing to see the board's major intellect and minor deity conversing with the board's current minor intellect (excluding myself of coarse) and major annoyance. - 12:34:58 on 2 Oct 97 GMT

Steven:ANY, how do you look up past postings> - 13:27:41 on 2 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:STEVEN- After "cgi" in the address you print this "?show=50" If you want to go back even more, change the 50 to a higher number. - 13:47:18 on 2 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:GRANT- What happening Oct.4 with the pk's? - 13:49:11 on 2 Oct 97 GMT

Peter:STEVE--Go to the URL at the top of your page where is says show=30&user. Change the thirty to the number of posts you'd like to go back-( i've gone back 200, so it goes at least that high) then press "enter"--and it should re-load as many posts as you punched in - 13:57:14 on 2 Oct 97 GMT

Peter:--MARLENE--How did you beat me to it by 10 minutes? Man o man, I must type slow!!! - 14:00:12 on 2 Oct 97 GMT

Carl:MIKE: long lived data, suppose it was some theistic funded "research", would that sort of bias be enough for you to don the threads of doubt again? Or suppose that those handling the composition were theists and "inadvertently" tossed in an extra word or two for proper effects, you as one familair w/the bible must know about its' various interpolations correct? My grandfather lived to 102, my spouses grandpa was 106 at their deaths, her gradma is 103 and lives yet, none knew or know a diety. Do you see my doubt, it is not an imaginary thing as is 'your' god. - 14:38:45 on 2 Oct 97 GMT

Steven:MIKE, I lost my son less than 7 mths ago, and guess what. I didn't believe in a God then and I sure as hell don't believe in one now. And, If a God does exist (right) and there was a heaven, I would spit in his face and show him how many bobs of his head it would take to get me off. - 15:22:50 on 2 Oct 97 GMT

mccoy:Would it be politically correct to call the fundamentalist Christian "sexually challenged"? anyone? - 16:19:26 on 2 Oct 97 GMT

Carl:MARLENE: The MIKE, as you pointed out yesterday is pleasuring himself here. It must beat the livin daylights out havin' to tend to a flock always peering up at him on his pulpit, with their wide trusting, loving but unknowing eyes, it must get boring as can be. Have you read Mark Twains' letters from god? If you have then you can grasp what I describe here. MIKE is used to causing people to do as he tells them, like turn to page so and so, lets pray, lets sing, etc. Finally he's gettin some stimulation, a little discord, a little resistance. It is a safe bet that things are boring as anything can be in his static world. - 16:58:33 on 2 Oct 97 GMT

Joette:--->STEVEN..my sincere condolences to you and yours. Although we are atheist, I hope you had a stong support network, contrary to what Mike indicated last night. - 18:33:50 on 2 Oct 97 GMT

Joette:-->CARL..let's him a little credit...he does follow baseball. - 18:35:29 on 2 Oct 97 GMT

Joette:-->MARLENE..the PK's are out of the woods (or should that be hills, as in Ozarks?)...I was wondering if Mike belonged to that group since he seems to place such importance a document referred to as a marriage licence. (BTW, September 1972 was the Canada-Russia series..don't you know where you were when Paul Henderson scored THE goal?) - 18:38:16 on 2 Oct 97 GMT

Joette:-->ADAM..I'm a bastard? Well, you're a prick! Anyway, one last point to be made about our conversation last evening, and then I'll drop it (just like catchers drop balls). I was Thurman Munson's flight instructor! - 18:40:20 on 2 Oct 97 GMT

Steven:JOETTE. Thank you for your condolences. It was a very difficult time, THE most difficult time in my, and my wife's life. My wife, for me, was my comfort and the experience brought us closer than I ever thought I could be with anyone. My point is that believing in a god was not necessary to live throught the situation. The problem with the Mike's of the world is that they cannot imagine not having that security blanket there to catch them when they need help. I knew that my wife was there for me and I for her. We also had very strong support from both sets of parents. Unfortunatly both sets of parents are xtians. The entire time, rather than conforting us with their love, they continually attempted to push their xtian bullshit on us. It rubbed us a little raw. I personally wish that there was some sort of mystic fairy land that you go to when you die. Would that not be cool, but I am intelligent enough to realize that that is how people fall into the trap of believing xtian bs. After several days of putting up with the bs my wife and I finally said ENOUGH. They (the families) even attempted to have a preacher come and talk to us. He received a quick boot in the ass out the door. Hope this isn't to personel, but I think it makes a point. - 18:48:58 on 2 Oct 97 GMT

Carl:STEVEN: I hold an understanding of your oft repeated words of theism as but a source of security and other such rot. The understanding that i can make out concerns a prior-post, o'mine, of theism in terms of a worldview, who's? Theists now existing upon your land have a jargon about their existence, in all its forms, that allows one as a christian to say anything, ranging from the sciences to any socio-cultural aspect, thereby can they ignore anything that is a threat to language\thought. Thats about the only reason allowing theists who showup here never to say anything about a diety. Whatever field they may choose something in it will be available for their favorable comment. Forget- they do, that their comment is meaningless to the world passing by. But, if one prefers heresy- which is only to choose, many are the options. - 18:51:35 on 2 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:STEVEN- Like you, I certainly don't need the baggage religion tries to load one up with when dealing with the loss of a loved one, notice how they barge in when you may be somewhat defenceless. BUT, I seem to have a different way of dealing with death than some others. Although I miss them dearly, I wouldn't want them to end up in a place where after-life is so damn boring. When I think of loved one's who have died (I'm middle-aged so there a quite a few), I like to remember the happy times with them, the kind or funny things about them and try to remember how much they enjoyed the life they had. Even if someone has suffered greatly they still have their happy moments. If it's a baby, as in my case, the comfort they exoerience from nursing and being held or touched by loving parents shows on their little faces. They also have had some enjoyment out of the life they lived. I'm glad that the xtian heaven does not exsist, it would be a hell of a place (pun intended). - 19:11:32 on 2 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:CARL- I agree, it must be boring to preach such crap over and over again to an anti-mind congregation. But without them Bro Mike would be jobless and then he'd have to look for a real job. - 19:15:06 on 2 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- I'm sorry! I'm anti-sports minded, methinks! You may be right, Bro Mike could be one of those key men of the pk's hence his narrow-minded, anti-minded crap he's trying to unload here. - 19:19:54 on 2 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:MACCOY- I'm not into political correctness as you've likely observed. Say what you want to say! - 19:22:15 on 2 Oct 97 GMT

Steven:MARLENE, you do have a good point. There idea of heaven is a nightmare. Where is BRO MIKE he must be contemplating what he will spew to the sheep this weekend. - 19:28:46 on 2 Oct 97 GMT

Steven:MACCOY, is your nick name BONES. Jim I'm only a doctor. - 19:30:03 on 2 Oct 97 GMT

Peter:PETER--Funny you guys are talking about heaven. I once asked a fundie what one does there, and he said "You praise God". If this would be the case, wouldn't God suffer from an unfathomable amount of insecurity, if this is what he wants. WHY? Also--I couldn't think of a more demeaning, boring and ultimately pointless excercise. Heaven is a place for people who long for "a better place" that have a contempt for their life, and for this world--not to mention a mortal fear of dying. Anybody ever hear the song "Heaven" by the Talking Heads? ....Heaven, is the place---The place where nothing --nothing ever happens. - 20:00:54 on 2 Oct 97 GMT

PETER: Strager still is the belief in reicarnation. What I mean is if there is a limit to how many souls there are, wouldn't the souls evetually run out. I mean, if after evey person dies and his - 20:40:12 on 2 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:PETER- Yep! I heard that song, wasn't it included in the xtian list of satanic music. If someone were praising and following me all the time, I'd be tempted to file harrassment charges against them. Isn't praising god for everthing somewhat similiar to an obsessive-compulsive behavior? - 20:40:37 on 2 Oct 97 GMT

Joette:-->PETER..and a fine ditty it is! When I was a good little churchgoing girl, my minister was screeching from the pulpit about hell being a place where people gamble, drink and generally carouse. Now, I think that would be heavenly! - 20:41:49 on 2 Oct 97 GMT

Steven:ooops, I didn't finish the last statement, had to actually do some work. - 20:43:54 on 2 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene from aliens and angels:PETER- Even stranger yet is where do these souls come from anyway? If someone were to have a soul implant when would this take place? During gestation, at birth? Who does the implantation? The guy named Gabby, the one with the big eyes? - 20:45:26 on 2 Oct 97 GMT

Steven:I'm with Joette, you go girl - 20:46:39 on 2 Oct 97 GMT

Joette:--->STEVEN/MARLENE..I appreciate reading such honest postings as it gives me a better sense of the person whose opinion we are hearing. Thank you. Now, may I share something? I had a really good friend who shared many of my interests (drinking, drugging, good looking men hahaha) but when we grew up and had babies, she became a born again. I really missed the person she was but remained friends with her, until one day she asked if she could take my daughter on an outing, and it turned out that she was taking her to a faith healer. She could not understand my chagrin, and truly could not believe that I would put my faith in medical practitioners above her belief in the laying on of hands. Pathetic! (fortunately she is back to being a good ole girl again!) - 20:48:28 on 2 Oct 97 GMT

Steven:Well, when do the souls run out. I mean if population is ever increasing and people have been reincarnated since the beginning of man, wouldn't the souls have run out by now? - 20:48:30 on 2 Oct 97 GMT

Steven:of course you realize this is rather a joke question. The idea of reincarnation is humorous. - 20:50:36 on 2 Oct 97 GMT

Steven:JOETTE, at least the your friend is back to normal. Faith healing, talking in tongues, snake dancing, what further proof do you need that xtianity is a cult of freaks. - 20:52:49 on 2 Oct 97 GMT

Joette:--->STEVEN..about 500 posts back, Bill treated us with an amusing piece about how hell would be overflowing given common mathematical terms. Maybe if he is lurking and sees this post he will put it on the page again. (Bill, are you there? Earth to Bill!) - 20:53:06 on 2 Oct 97 GMT

Joette:-->MIKE..this one's for you - 20:58:23 on 2 Oct 97 GMT

Steven:JOETTE, think of all the cool people that would be in hell. Jimi Hendrix, Jim Morrison, Socrates, Ceasar, Napoleon, Hobbs, Rousea, Freud, Aristotle, Genghis Kahn, everyone from China, the largest % of Native Americans, etc..... - 21:01:14 on 2 Oct 97 GMT

Joette:-->STEVEN..and don't forget the big guy, god! - 21:14:34 on 2 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE! I love that site. I had a collection of my own that I had recorded but this one has them all and more. But you should know that the people, even god to committed these crimes were "not really christians!". - 21:18:57 on 2 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene -on kids and jee-zuss freaks:JOETTE and STEVEN- In Manitoba here we have a fairly large population of Aboriginal Canadians. Many of their children are removed from their homes by our wonder government entity, Child and Family Services, and placed in "nice christian homes" where they aren't loved, the idiots make money off them, jee-zuss is shoved down their throats and the kids become forever lost. I HATE this whole process. Nine out of every foster home is xtian. I would say that CFS is combining religion and state here. The psychologists also have their self-sustaining grubby little fingers in this outrageous process! For some reason our Aboriginal people are letting this happen. - 21:26:14 on 2 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:On the last post I either forgot the whole word or only half spelled it. Sorry about that. - 21:29:30 on 2 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- Have you picked up a copy of the _Skeptical Inquirer_ Sept/Oct? It's topic for this issue is "alternative medicine". - 21:51:27 on 2 Oct 97 GMT

Joette:-->MARLENE..actually, I had a "set to" with a new clerk at the only store in this burg that gets two copies for a half million population, and so the answer in "no". Is there an address to that and Skeptic so that I can get a subscription? - 22:26:15 on 2 Oct 97 GMT

Adam WAS IT A LEAR JO-ET?:Jo: The "bastard" reference was in the context of "You killed Kenny!" That's a SOuth Park reference. Do you not have Comedy Central in that frost-bitten province of yours? - 22:26:56 on 2 Oct 97 GMT

Adam-->cont'd:As for Munson, please kill more Yankees ASAP - 22:27:32 on 2 Oct 97 GMT

Joette:-->ADAM...F#$##$%%^ Orioassholes! No Comedy Central, and no frost yet either, except today we had a nasty hail storm. South Park just started showing here so tonight is only the second episode. I really laughed at the first one I saw last week. See, we're not such barbarians in the Great White Nord. - 22:34:12 on 2 Oct 97 GMT

Adam---> Reassertion of Emotability:Steven---> I AM KEEE-ROCK! What have you done with....my....ship? - 22:34:33 on 2 Oct 97 GMT

Adam NOW, REALLY:Sorry, I simply can't take this mccoy character for real (HAR!) - 22:35:41 on 2 Oct 97 GMT

Adam--WELCOME BACK!:Marlene---> Don't be so silly. The purveyor of souls is Gabe Kaplan, of course. - 22:39:35 on 2 Oct 97 GMT

Adam GREAT WALLS of FIRE!:--->Steven: Why is everyone from China a cool person? Moreover, I would posit that no one is cool in hell. - 22:43:51 on 2 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- There is only one store that I can find it in to. Anyway for _Skeptic_ go to www.skeptic.com and they have all the info on the mag and other neat things. For _Skeptical Inquirer_ the address is www.csicop.org - 22:45:53 on 2 Oct 97 GMT

Steven:hmmph, did I say every one from China is cool. I'm sure the racio of cool people in China is close to what it is in US. Anyway I would posst that no one is cool in hell' ha - ha - ha, anyway. Such wit is .... undescribable. - 22:59:25 on 2 Oct 97 GMT

Adam I'VE BEEN IN REMISSION ACCOMPLISHED!!!:Belated birthday bonjours, babe: SORRY! Yesterday was the 150th birthday (except she's dead) of the great Atheist and sexual liberator babe who said, "FOR CENTURIES THE LEADERS OF CHRISTIAN THOUGHT SPOKE OF WOMEN AS A NECESSARY EVIL, AND THE GREATEST SAINTS OF THE CHURCH ARE THOSE WHO DESPISE WOMEN THE MOST" and "NO PHILOSOPHY, NO RELIGION, HAS EVER BROUGHT SO GLAD A MESSAGE TO THE WORLD AS THIS GOOD NEWS OF ATHEISM." Who was she? Ladies? (Hint to Marlene: NOT THOMAS PAINE). - 23:00:17 on 2 Oct 97 GMT

Adam THOSE EMBARRASSING IN-LAWS:Steven---> No comment on "Great Walls"? I read that post back and applauded my own cleverosity. BMW, is "Genghis KAHN" any relation to Sammy or Madeleine? Or, for that matter, Ricardo Montalban? "From the depths of hell I strike at thee, KEERK." - 23:04:00 on 2 Oct 97 GMT

Peter:ADAM---..and there's a reason vy I should have the plague? - 23:13:13 on 2 Oct 97 GMT

Peter:--MARLENE--THose Xtians seem to have this penchant for these false alternatives: If someone says something AGAINST anyhing associated with the faith--they worship Satan. - 23:16:46 on 2 Oct 97 GMT

Peter:--JOETTE--You know it. Tug McGraw when asked how he plans to spend his world series victory bonus said " I'm gonna spend about 80% of it on booze, parties, and broads, and then I guess I'll just waste the other 20% !" - 23:20:21 on 2 Oct 97 GMT

Adam WHERE THE GRAPES of ROTH ARE STORED:Impudent Peter---> Sacrifice, man, sacrifice! Where's my stuff? I AM A GREEDY GOD WHO LIKES FOOTBALL ("Thou shalt have no graven scrimmages before me." LOMBARDI 3d: & 3 to go). - 23:25:46 on 2 Oct 97 GMT

Adam PIGSKIN is HEREBY KOSHER:Puntin' Peter: Pay up or take a hike! - 23:27:57 on 2 Oct 97 GMT

Peter--To the person who sounds reminiscent of the minority character in "Merchant of Venice"--:---It coming, its coming, its in the mail....... - 0:00:00 on 3 Oct 97 GMT

Peter:ADAM--...and ve had a bond? - 0:02:05 on 3 Oct 97 GMT

Adam JO RUNS, JO HITS...:9-3. WHOOMP, THERE IT IS! - 0:18:39 on 3 Oct 97 GMT

Adam ROCKET REDUX???:Peter Dill Pickle---> Yo, wassup wit the jew accent? Have you flipped your yid?.....Jo-BAD-TO-THE-BETTE: Yankee slime Dave from my office sez that Jaret Wright is being called the next Clemens. I'll be happy if he puts in a solid 6. - 0:22:57 on 3 Oct 97 GMT

Joette emulating Ron in the olden days...:-->ADAM..that solid six got my smut filled mind going but I will be polite...he's only 18 years old! - 0:29:26 on 3 Oct 97 GMT

Adam FLACIDITY:Hate to spoil the mood, Jo, but looks like a non-solid two at this point. Only rockets here are off the scum Yankee bats. - 0:59:39 on 3 Oct 97 GMT

Adam Your Guess is as Good & Plenty:No tries at the quote du jour? Some atheists! How 'bout you broads? This chick broke some ground for you! - 1:50:17 on 3 Oct 97 GMT

Adam---> DIE YANKEE SCUM!:CLeveland comeback! I'm out for the nite folks! Caio down! - 1:54:38 on 3 Oct 97 GMT

RON...--->Joette...: What *olden days*..??? I'm the sweetest (most lonely) guy on the planet. I'm having my own personal stuggle with "god" now. I'm torn between feeling I've wronged some balance with the world and I'm paying the price for it. My life has been HELL for two months now. HELL, I tell you. I've been praying (I suck at it) for my family to rejoin because it's the only thing I have left to do....there, I said it. shhhhuuueeee..... - 2:35:54 on 3 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:ADAM- I've been waiting for you to tell me but you haven't so I'll confess. Paine wasn't an atheist. PETER- Isn't it "those who are not for me are against me" or some fool line like that? - 4:04:54 on 3 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:ADAM- I'll try a real guess, Matilda Gage?? - 4:32:45 on 3 Oct 97 GMT

Peter:--MARLENE--Sounds familiar. I just love how one can be so versed in the science of logic when they listen to JC spout off his stuff! Enviable. - 5:04:48 on 3 Oct 97 GMT

Davin:testing - 6:06:14 on 3 Oct 97 GMT

Joette:-->RON..the olden days when I accused you of being a pig. I know now that you aren't a pig. Is your praying any different than one who just does a lot of "self-talk" when things aren't going well? - 11:07:33 on 3 Oct 97 GMT

Thumbnails... Replies to Tough Questions - 1st person, undocumented, short (for me at least!), and suitable for use in 'normal' settings. 1. Don't all religions basically teach the same things, but just use different names for God? [This section is under MAJOR revision.] 2. As long as each person is genuinely sincere, what difference does it make what they believe? "Let's think about that for a second. We know that in many cases the issue is that of 'reality' versus 'sincerity'--where sincerity is inadequate to overcome reality. Take for example natural law. I can believe as sincerely (and as fervently) as I can that I can fly, but if I jump off a tall building, reality will override my sincerity. So, when we are dealing with reality (physical or spiritual) being SINCERE may not be enough--we will probably need to be CORRECT as well! "Or take an example from social law. If I believe the speed limit on a certain road is 60, but it is ACTUALLY 30, the policeman will STILL give me a ticket or citation--REGARDLESS of my sincerity (typically). The old saying "Ignorance of the law is no excuse" could also be paraphrased "Sincere belief in falsehood about the law is no excuse". Sincerity is not enough--we need to be INFORMED and CORRECT as well. "Now, let me be the first to point out that sincerity is generally a GOOD thing. It is generally associated with personal integrity, and we often admire people who live sincerely according to their beliefs. But, to be accurate, we only do this when we consider their belief to be true. When we come across people who sincerely believe that the moon landing was a media hoax, or that the U.S. government is really controlled by space aliens, we find ourselves amused and less likely to accord high respect for these folks. And, taken to historical extremes, we even find fault with those leaders and terrorists in history that committed atrocities against humanity because of 'sincere beliefs'. Hitler sincerely believed that the world would be a better place if he killed the entire Jewish race (and he lived extremely consistently with this sincere belief) but few today would abstain from passionate denunciation of his 'belief' and actions. And this applies EQUALLY to religious ethics--we don't excuse the David Koresh's of the world, nor the Torquemada's of the Spanish Inquisition--REGARDLESS of their 'sincere' fanaticism. So, practically speaking, we all seem to know that sincerity is not enough--the belief must also be true and ethically good. "And the obvious conclusion of this is that we need to find out what the REAL TRUTH is, so we can 'sincerely believe' THAT. Fortunately, God has not forced us to 'wallow around in our ignorance' but has told us about REALITY in His communication to us in history (i.e. the Bible). 3. Isn't it narrow-minded for Christians to think that they're right and everyone else is wrong? "Some of them probably are. We normally consider people 'narrow-minded' when they refuse to consider the pros and cons of their position (especially when being critiqued by people OUTSIDE their position). But, on the other hand, when a college professor spends 40 years studying all sides of an issue, and TAKES A POSITION on that issue, we rarely accuse her of being 'narrow-minded' even though the position may be the same one held by a narrow-minded type. So you see, just holding strongly to a belief that something is true is NOT necessarily being 'narrow minded'. But, beyond this, the REAL question is more an issue of "is this position TRUE?" than it is of "are they holding it in a narrow-minded fashion?" And, practically speaking, we KNOW that wisdom and experience teaches us to trust some options over others. For example, when our doctor prescribes a medication to help us get well, it is not narrow-minded to accept their advice, even though we know there are psychic healers and tribal witch doctors who would urge a different approach. The question is, who has credentials we can trust? And, looking at this from another angle, if it were simply one human opinion versus another, we might not be entitled to hold our viewpoints so strongly. But if we become convinced that God has broken into history with a factual message, then it's not narrow-minded to believe HIS statements--its a matter of trusting a credible source of information. (Presumably, He knows the REAL facts.) 4. What credentials back up the claims of Christianity? Is there any good evidence to support it? "This is a fascinating subject and one that illustrates how God seems to care for our needs--in this case, for our needs to feel confident that we are believing the TRUTH. He has provided us with a surprising amount of varied historical evidence for the truthfulness of His claims in history. "For example, one of the evidences of God's action in the coming of Jesus Christ is the accurate foretelling of the future. Before the coming of Christ, men and women in Israel made relatively specific predictions of a coming King who would make a way for the whole world to be restored to a healthy relationship with the God of the Universe, and in so doing, begin restoration of other relationships as well. These predictions included some vague ones (e.g. 'things will be good someday' ) to some VERY specific ones (e.g. when the King was executed/crucified, people would play a game of chance to win his clothing--Ps 22). Many of these fall outside the range of statistical probability, due to the detail and the long time gaps. Predictions included the details of Christ's crucifixion (Ps 22), of his birthplace in Bethlehem (Micah 5.2), of His betrayal price (30 coins), of His entrance into Jerusalem on a donkey (the last week of His earthly life), and His being pierced and bruised for the salvation of the world (Is 53; Zech 12). And we know from archeology that these predictions were made and recorded hundreds of years before Jesus was born into history, and that the Jews of Jesus' time understood these predictions in the way the New Testament writers saw them fulfilled in the life of Christ. God has given us some strong assurances that the good news of His love for us in Christ is trustworthy. "One of the more striking evidences He has provided is the resurrection of Jesus Christ from death. According to predictions made a thousand years before Christ, this promised King-Leader would be killed but would not stay dead for longer than three days. This is EXACTLY what happened to Jesus Christ. Resurrections (after three days!) are almost unheard of in history, and ones predicted far in advance don't exist at all--EXCEPT FOR the resurrection of Jesus from the dead. "We have quite a bit of evidence to support a belief that the New Testament accounts of the resurrection are trustworthy. First, they never found the body (which would have been used to EASILY REFUTE the early Christian preaching), and it would have been easy for the Roman and Jewish authorities to find if the resurrection had NOT occurred. The explosive growth of Christianity (as a part of 1st century Judaism) in the first five years simply could NOT have occurred if the resurrection were not historically demonstrable in Jerusalem at that time. [Remember, the early preaching of the apostles was NOT about 'living good' or 'the coming kingdom'--it was about the sacrifice of the Lamb of God on the Cross, and of God the Father's raising His Son from the dead.] Secondly, the post-resurrection appearances to a wide variety of people, in a wide variety of settings, and with a wide variety of experiences argue for the truthfulness of the resurrection fact. Third, the changes in the character of the apostles argues strongly that they actually saw a risen Christ. Their overnight change from fearful men to people making bold and outlandish claims about a Risen Messiah--in spite of threats, eventual death, persecution, and lack of overt motivations of status and wealth--simply cannot be explained by natural psychological phenomena. Fourth, the agreement of the different resurrection accounts in the gospels--WITHOUT obvious attempts at harmonization--argues for a historically-accessible resurrection event in those days. All in all, there is some surprisingly strong historical data to support the claims of the New Testament that Jesus Christ rose from the dead. 5. What makes you so confident that the Bible is true? It has so many authors, so many translations, and was written over so many years--there MUST be some mistakes! "At first blush, you would certainly EXPECT there to be mistakes--there certainly seems to be mistakes in all OTHER such literature. But, we have to keep coming back to the question of God--IF the God described in the Bible DOES exist, and IF He cares enough about us to get a message to us of His love and efforts for us in the person of Jesus Christ, THEN it is CERTAINLY POSSIBLE that He COULD produce such a book that WAS completely trustworthy. So, we are probably not entitled to ASSUME it is untrustworthy--we will have to TEST IT to see if it does measure up to a very high standard of reliability. "We actually DO have indications that there is something 'supernatural' about this book--in the area of fulfilled predictions of the future. In that portion of the Bible written before the times of Jesus Christ--the Old Testament--there are numerous situations where men and women of God made detailed predictions about the future. To the best of our historical knowledge, ALL of these came true--a VERY 'odd' success rate for foretelling the future! These cases of accurate (and detailed) predictions of the future support the claim that a supernatural influence is involved in this Book. "As far as modern historical methods, the curious thing about this book is that the farther away in history we get from the actual events it portrays, the higher our confidence grows that the record is correct! In other words, in generations past, scholars would have a list of passages in the Bible that they thought contained errors. But as time went by, and we learned more about ancient civilizations and cultures, and as we did more archeological excavations, the more those passages were found to be true. For example, for the longest time we believed that camels were not domesticated in the times of Abraham. But in the early 20th century, we discovered archeological remains that clearly demonstrated that the Bible record was historically accurate. So, as we learn more about history, the more our confidence in the historical accuracy of the Bible increases. " Your question about the translations is a natural one, for if the bible we had today was a translation of a translation of a translation (and so on), we COULD have a problem. Fortunately for us, archeology works FOR us again. Each year we find more and more copies of the original manuscripts, from earlier and earlier dates. We even have manuscript fragments that date to the time of the apostles' deaths--LONG before we got into the 'translation business'! So each year provides us with better data about what the original authors wrote (and a way to check the modern translations for accuracy). "And, even though this is going to sound strange, the very WEIRDNESS and DIFFICULTY of the Bible's content is a witness to the reliability and trustworthiness of the record. Let me explain. There are many passages in the Bible that are difficult to understand, easy to be offended at, or an embarrassment to the early church leaders. But these passages were NOT altered, omitted, or diluted! The emphasis on faithful recording and reporting was ETHICALLY HIGH, with the result that the Bible that we end up with is a trustworthy account. "In fact, academic historians point out that, compared to the OTHER historical documents of the times, the Bible is incredibly more reliable, non-mythological, and historically testable. So, by all the modern historical standards, we are justified in placing our confidence in the Bible. 6. How do you know God exists? "Actually, the only way we really KNOW that God exists is that He has broken into history and made Himself known. He revealed Himself in a pattern of events, over a span of thousands of years, and the record of this 'disclosure' is in the Judeo-Christian scriptures. He gave us a 'book' in which He told us about Himself, His likes and dislikes, what the universe is like, what would made us happy, and how to have a wonderful relationship with Him. He even went so far as to surround this Book with 'special evidences' of its supernatural origin--largely fulfilled prophecy and miracles that accompanied the early messengers He used. "Indeed, He actually went beyond simply sending purely human messengers--He came to earth Himself in the person of Jesus Christ! He literally sent His Son (the identical image of the Father's character and commitments) to earth for us to see what He was REALLY like. God the Father proved the supernatural character of His Son by raising him from the dead (after being dead 3 days). Those around this person Jesus Christ recorded his words, deeds, character, miracles, resurrection--so that we might know what God the Father was like. And THEIR message was likewise vindicated by miraculous events. "These are the really strong evidences we have--historical events right in front of our eyes. But there are other arguments that generally support the idea of God's existence, that we can glean from the fact and nature of the universe. "We know from both science and philosophy that the universe had a beginning. And we generally know that anything that has a beginning ALSO has a 'cause' of its coming into existence. [And this cause has to be 'different' from the universe so IT doesn't need a cause itself.] So we generally can understand that something like 'God' must exist. "In addition to the simple fact of the universe, the nature of the universe also makes more sense if it were created by a God. We naturally believe that behind every work of art is an artist, that behind every invention is an inventor, that behind every building is an architect. When we see evidence of intelligent design (even imperfect or incomplete) we suspect that there was an intelligent designer. And the same applies to the universe in all its incredible complexity and inter-connectedness. The delicate balances in physical and biological laws can be seen as strong evidence for an Intelligent Designer--God. "In fact, if you take this argument one step farther, we end up with important data about this "God's" character. As scientists in the last 50 years examined the fine balance in the universe, they were shocked to discover that the universe has somehow been 'fine tuned' to produce humanity. The slightest variances in the initial conditions of the birth of the universe would have precluded humanity's existence. This seems like an important clue that God has a special purpose for humanity, and perhaps even that He 'cares' for us and our well-being. "This evidence in both history and nature argues pretty strongly that God exists, that He is active in our History, and that He cares for us. But, to be honest, in addition to these evidences, I personally have an additional source of data--God has changed my life and has answered prayer beyond the boundary of statistical probability. 7. If a loving and powerful God really exists, why doesn't He do something about all of the evil in the world? "Actually, He IS doing something about evil--not the least of which is being patient with you and I about OUR evil! Even though He gets a lot of slander for not judging evil quickly, nevertheless many of us appreciate the fact that He didn't judge us too early, and that He gave us time to 'get right with Him'! "And practically speaking, the world COULD BE a great deal more evil than it is--so the statements in the Bible that He 'restrains' evil 'somewhat' indicate definite action on His part as well. "And in some cases, He actually will take consequences of evil choices and 'twist' them for the good of others. The selling of Joseph into slavery by his brothers was very evil, but God took the historical consequences and used them to save the entire nation of Egypt. "I know personally that God DOES deal thoroughly with MY evil--as His child. He has been working on reducing my moral failures over the past years, and has made real progress. I am not where I need to be yet, but I am certainly better than I was earlier. So, He is reducing evil at least in MY life. "But the BIGGEST thing God has done about evil is to guarantee an end to it! By coming to earth in the person of His Son, and taking the just consequences of evil upon Himself on the Cross (in our place!), He has guaranteed a future universe WITHOUT evil, for those of us who trust Him to forgive and remove OUR personal evil choices and orientation. 8. What about innocent people who suffer, like little children? Why doesn't God do something to help them? "This is a sad reality of the situation we humans have gotten ourselves into. Much of the suffering we experience in life is constructive--we develop strength, character, and discipline from some, we learn from mistakes ("you do not grasp a rose stem without gloves"), and in some cases, the human spirit reaches new heights of achievement when confronted with physical or environmental challenges. This does NOT make the situations 'pleasant' but it CAN make them productive. God has made the human personality resilient, adaptive, and in most cases, able to transform situations of personal suffering into experiences of growth. "But there are still those situations--however in the overall historical minority--in which the sheer horror of the situation overwhelms us. Most of these are cases of our OWN atrocities--human against human--and as such, do not allow us to shift the blame from ourselves to God. We exist as a race and as a social unit. Our daily choices affect the lives of others--for good or ill. In most cases, we affect others for good--and appreciate the "group effects" of our existence. In other cases, we do not. Many of these will escape our analysis, but they will not escape the truthful judgment of God. "But we must realize that this is not an abstract question for God. Indeed, His Son suffered innocently at the Cross, experiencing both the rejection/hatred of the world, PLUS the penalty for evil that was due to you and I. He probably experienced things we could not even fathom. So this is no theoretical discussion for God the Father. He has experienced this firsthand, and with the depth of spirit and sensitivity that only an infinite Person can feel. He is someone we can turn to in OUR moments of experiencing these painful andunjust moments. - 11:25:50 on 3 Oct 97 GMT

9/29/97 It's been a month since I have been here...so incredibly busy with my 'real job', consumed with travel and deadlines and trying to "fathom the unfathomable and unscrew the inscrutable" as they say--but in the area of technology management and measurement...I have had so little time and energy to do anything on the Tank. I had a dear volunteer build me an index of most of the Tough Questions in backlog (150 from him, and I have another 100 on my hard drive). So much ahead, so many good questions, so many things to consider... I find myself hesitating before the next question or two, after my experience of the last two or three...they were incredibly demanding, challenging, and draining...and I tend to make ANY question into a Gordian Knot somehow! I face October, with potentially 67% of it spent away from home, and a demanding week ahead, so I despair of getting much done on the backlog of questions and unfinished projects over the next month. I am about ready to begin the next set of responses to James Still (on the literary dependence of the gospels and the whole Q-myth thing), and I need to answer some more theo-philo pieces on evil etc. Due to newly-resurfaced health issues, I have to lose some more weight quickly, and the hour-a-day cycling allows me reading time in the middle of the day (when I am not traveling, of course). I am currently finishing up RMML (for the synoptic problem), which interrupted OT:LIANE (one of the best-written, balanced, non-polemical works I have seen on life in the ANE...I highly recommend it). Travel also affords me reading time (although some of it is taken by work-reading and work-writing). I have just returned from a 10-day trip which included time with my parents and family, and even time with old school mates. These trips are always difficult for me, since they stir up so much emotional history and remind me of so much unfinished business. I got to visit face-2-face with folk I have not seen in 20 or 30 years--serious followers of our Lord. I even saw an old high school classmate of mine, whom God picked up by the lapels and shook about a decade after high school. He is now a preacher of the good news of the Living and Loving Lord. I heard stories and histories of God's steady work in friends lives, with such beauty and yet severity. I sat face-2-face for hours and hours with one of the purest of hearts I have even known (even yet a sinner). I saw the faces of children who only were born because of God's redemptive work in their parents' lives (before they ever met). I was amazed at how extensive the work of God is; that others share this experience of His intense involvement in my life, in their own lives. I saw God's blessing on the lives and marriages and walks of some humble and servant-hearted people. The only sorta 'down-side' from being around such folks--my younger brothers, my aunt, these old friends of old school days--is that I always feel 'unclean' when I leave. Although I know better, their lives seem so committed, so sensitive to Him, so courageous, so obedient...and I have never "felt" that way, nor do I ever expect to 'feel' that way, this side of my exodus... When I get this feeling now, I always remember a classroom situation that happened back in the early-70's. A student asked the godly professor about Philp 2.3b: 3 Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves. The student asked the obvious question: wouldn't it be dishonest to consider others better than yourself, if you were significantly 'farther along' in your Christian maturity than someone else? The question is a good one (from a third-party standpoint), but the professor knew that it was a first-person issue. He explained that it was very easy for him to consider someone better than himself, simply because he knew more bad about himself than he could ever know about the other person! The fact that we all know our own mixed hearts, and that we know ONLY our own heart, means that the 'bad' we know about ourselves will ALWAYS be more that what we see on the outside of another person's life. It was a 1st-person issue; NOT an objective assessment of comparative value. Some people suffer from rapid mood swings; I suffer from rapid morale swings. I am often discouraged by the little cracks and slivers of time I get to work on the Tank (especially when I consider the sweet, and heartfelt gratitude many express to me for the stuff I HAVE finished), and often elated by how God seems to 'multiply the cracks and slivers" sometimes. But right now my morale is neither up nor down--it is merely 'confused'. [I know I am biochemically depressed after the travel, but that is standard procedure; the chemicals grow back in a couple of days.] I am daunted by the projects I want to do next, and questioning the usefulness of some of these extended or multiple pieces I write. I muddle through. I stumble ahead, trusting. I see no progress, but I don't complain--I have been in such periods before, and for good reasons no doubt. Events seem to swirl around me, and thoughts fly through like swallows. Strange times in my life... I have started attending Peninsula Bible Church in Palo Alto California. They let me teach (on and off) in one of their Sunday Schools, and they have placed the series in RealAudio at www.pbc.org/dp/audio/. The people there are so generous with their acceptance, and several actually seek me out for company and fellowship. God has also graced me with a beautiful friend, a gifted Barnabbas, a man of unhesitating encouragement and blood-washed laughter. I celebrate this, but still so slowly...Strange times in my life... I also suffer from rapid subject swings (smile). I have been thinking intensely about our final judgment someday, how each of us will be held accountable for how we treated other people. I am increasingly realizing the awesome power of the unity/interconnectedness of the universe, in that the tiniest goodness can change the course of history forever (e.g. through the life of another), as can the tiniest act of malice, selfish disdain, or trivialization. Our acts DO have long and down-stream consequences, regardless of the 'size' of the act or word today. This is a powerful 'leverage opportunity' (as we would say in the executive world), and one that I am not sure we appreciate fully as creatures of the immediate. Once a thought becomes a word, or an intention becomes a deed, these become ripples in the universe that spread outward from our lives. I am beginning to suspect that the immensity and intensity of some of the images of the afterlife may be reflective of this 'leverage'. The damage done by an self-centered figure of power would extend far beyond his immediate circle of damage, as would the acts of kindness, benevolence, encouragement of servant-hearted, other-centered lovers of mercy. [This principle shows up in a number of teachings of Jesus, but that is a subject of a piece I am researching on the afterlife.] Anyway, I hope to pick up the pace on my Tank work in November, and try to get further through the backlog of email and TQ's... Glenn Miller, 9/29/97 The Christian ThinkTank...[http://www.Christian-thinktank.com] (Reference Abbreviations) - 12:39:13 on 3 Oct 97 GMT

Peter:TO PERSON WHO MAKES UNIDENTIFIED POSTS---Even before one even considers the content of your messages, your attempts to "sell" this material has serious problems. 1. Its far too long 2. You haven't identified yourself--which to me suggests cowardice, and no one gives much credence to what a coward has to say 3. Even by your own admission, you were here about a month ago, so can we assume you are "Maxwell"? 4. Any person in the past who has posted a message similar to this never returns to defend his assertions, so it's pointless to debate them......Now an overview of the contents. I have heard all these assertions before, more often than I would even like to count. They have been refuted repeatedly, effectively, thoroughly and rationally on many occaisions previously--so I see no point in repeating what I would consider a futile exercise. I am now taking the liberty of speaking for the other regular potsers her, and that would be: By the method and content of your post, you are only accomplishing one thing here--insulting our intelligence. - 13:29:36 on 3 Oct 97 GMT

Steven:Who posted all that crap! - 14:23:25 on 3 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:STEVEN and PETER- I've found it useful to ignore these idiots. I never read it and always just page down. Treat it like junk email. - 14:49:52 on 3 Oct 97 GMT

Carl:PETER: The one regularly appearing aspect of these visiting theists is wrapped in the swaddling attire of credulity and oft times simply, heavily blanketed in ignorance. They post their idiocy in this forum without honest, rigorous thought of anything but what they've had preached to them by mom n'dad or the likes of someone upon a pulpit telling them when and how to pray, sing, what to read, what it means, who said it- all of it of course, is "aboslutely" so. We could probably converse with them if they would just say first, that we are idiots and we need such mental structure in order to cope with the all the snags beyond our nose. With such means, they could simply say, our behavior- skilled or otherwise, can become more and more automatic as it is practiced, dispite that our thinking declines in proportion as these theistic patterns become automatic. So what, that urr dailey interactions also become "without awareness" that we do not think we are not critical and that we neither develope nor improve. To our Atheistic question of, "What do you mean?", then they could say "We chose to think that we exist in a nutshell." - 15:06:33 on 3 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:Since I'm not in a real hurry to get started on the work I have to do today, I decided to read creepin jesus's post. "enlightenment of blood-washed laughter"....geezz..and the oxymoron of the week "christian think-tank"! - 15:29:25 on 3 Oct 97 GMT

Adam---> The ANTITEST:TESTING SUCKS!!!! Your %&$* computer works! There is no reason to test. - 17:49:17 on 3 Oct 97 GMT

Adam---> It's Drivel like this that makes me appreciate Mike, who at least can carry on a dialogue:Going against my instinct to not reply to the slime poster: your stuff on "sincerity" made me think you were going somewhere rational, and then you fell into this goddamned "bible predicts" nonsense. This is the tired old flaw of reason called "self-substantiating evidence." So, the bible, which is by no means an accurate historical account, foretells certain events, and then the bible tells that they occurred. What kind of moron offers this as persuasive? You are a classic case of someone who creates a faux logical veneer to wrap around your underlying beliefs, which are mythological. Christ never returned to life, because if he did, he knows I'll kick his ass---he's been afraid of me since I was a kid. - 18:06:26 on 3 Oct 97 GMT

Peter:---CARL--Yessir, I gotcha, very eloquently put! - 18:10:36 on 3 Oct 97 GMT

Adam Heroine Pusher:Marlene and the rest of you---LEARN ABOUT YOUR COURAGEOUS PREDECESSORS, AND EMULATE THEM....The fabulous babe who said: "FOR CENTURIES THE LEADERS OF CHRISTIAN THOUGHT SPOKE OF WOMEN AS A NECESSARY EVIL, AND THE GREATEST SAINTS OF THE CHURCH ARE THOSE WHO DESPISE WOMEN THE MOST" and "NO PHILOSOPHY, NO RELIGION, HAS EVER BROUGHT SO GLAD A MESSAGE TO THE WORLD AS THIS GOOD NEWS OF ATHEISM" was ANNIE BESANT. She was a colleague of Charles Bradlaugh (another recent QOD), edited the National Reformer and was vice-president of the National Secular Society in England. Both she and Bradlaugh were convicted of distributing obscene material (her cause d'especial was access to sexual information) for publishing The Fruits of Philosophy. The two juicy quotes are from The Freethinker's Textbook Part II‹Christianity and an essay called The Gospel of Atheism. As if that wasn't enough, might I add that she was one hot Atheist mama. Were she not in a corpse-like state, she would have been 150 this past Wednesday. - 18:18:13 on 3 Oct 97 GMT

Peter--:--MARLENE--Hey. it looks like we're going to have to bring "CORNY" up to the front of the class again, because once in a while the children misbehave. How's he doing these days, by the way---ADAM--It's his ass you vant to kick? Kick him in my direction, and he'll come right back to you, and then ve repeat the same thing, over and over again. - 18:29:50 on 3 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:ADAM- For some reason I'm not getting the rush???? - 18:31:11 on 3 Oct 97 GMT

Adam--> What are you, a schlemeel?:Sephardic Peter: Do you have a keyboard glitch? What's with the "v"s? - 18:43:33 on 3 Oct 97 GMT

Peter--:--ADAM--What does "Sephardic" mean? Great qoute too. I'll betcha dollars to donuts Amie sticks her nose in later in defence of "thum nails" - 19:12:14 on 3 Oct 97 GMT

Adam--->Peter:Sephardi are Jews who lived on the Iberian Peninsula during the Middle Ages who faced persecution that culminated in their expulsion from Spain in 1492. It is one of the predominant ethnicities among Jews. I assume you were doing a bad yiddish accent. - 19:26:29 on 3 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:PETER and ADAM- Vhat are ve playink here, godtball? Corny has returned to the jungle to select a virgin monkey for a very selfish purpose. Corny thought the idea of having a offspring on earth would be a fantastic idea. I'll tell you more on that when Corny returns. Corny is also thinking of writing a book and calling it The Liable. I understand that it will outline what one is liable for and what one is not. Corny doesn't want to make the same mistake as the xtian god and have all liabilities off-loaded onto his offspring. - 19:35:55 on 3 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene And this is all I know to date:In addition to assigning liabilities to the ones who are truly liable, there will also be a section in which Corny will distinguish the truth and the lies. The Bananna detection principle will debunk the lies of so-called other deities. Corny's unspoken screech is translated into IamTheway. Each and every follower will have to join the Amway pyramid and give at least 20% of the sales they make to family to Corny. - 19:46:34 on 3 Oct 97 GMT

Adam ASSUMING LIABILTY:I swear I'm gonna' punch Corny's lousy nose down his even lousier throat! Please, will everone post two-to-four-word posts quickly, so that the default 30 will no longer include that heap o' godshit that takes half an hour to refresh? - 20:44:48 on 3 Oct 97 GMT

Carl:ANY: took a look at the tank place, I'd rather not assume to many things nor take a prejudicial posture, neither are good things to do. It is like any other such site, you gotta first believe the tale of some male or female, then it looks like once they get their "experience" in order and proper then it becomes a testimony to their god. I'm still waiting for one of these story tellers to say they also saw that 800 feet tall jc, was it o.roberts who saw that? Some measurin tape to be so exact, eh? As for the site, its lack of either critical or rigorous thinking place it outside of any questions of sanity. They are just childish tales, and mature thinking folks don't think of children in terms of sanity. - 20:45:17 on 3 Oct 97 GMT

Steven:MARLENE are you talking about the holy Cornholio? - 21:20:29 on 3 Oct 97 GMT

Steven:MARLENE, was it you or JOETTE who passed on the link to the bible attrocities site. Very beautiful site. - 21:23:08 on 3 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:CARl- I surfed over there too. I still think the title of the site is oxymoronish. I'm glad to see that they didn't add a link to this site or else we'd have an invasion. Grant informed me of a swarming of the pk's in Washington tomorrow. I see we haven't heard from Mike-Bo-Peep, maybe he shepherded his sheep on over to Washington??? ADAM- You will be sorry if you continue to hassle Corny. You'll be bending your knees in prayer for forgiveness! - 21:25:19 on 3 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:STEVEN- It was Joette that found the site. I had been writing down a few of my own but this site is great! It's got the ones I found and more! Corny, the One and Only, interested in Amway? - 21:28:26 on 3 Oct 97 GMT

Steven:Amway must be the path, I see the light - 21:35:37 on 3 Oct 97 GMT

Steven:We have almost commented off the thumbnails crap!!!! yesss - 21:37:16 on 3 Oct 97 GMT

Adam THE QUOTE-O-RAMA CONTINUES:I know somebody who, extensive bodily decay notwithstanding, will be 284 years young (doesn't look a DAY over 250!) on Sunday. He did some time; his crime was saying stuff in France that didn't go over well with the well-heeled escargot-munching goddamned Catholic croissant-scarfin' King-loving haute-couture wearin' frogs, such as "AND WITH THE GUTS OF THE LAST PRIEST LET US STRANGLE THE LAST KING" He was ________________? OK folks, go to town (À VA VILLE)! - 22:36:52 on 3 Oct 97 GMT

Adam POST to move that shit out:UP WITH DRIVEL! - 22:40:17 on 3 Oct 97 GMT

Adam DITTO:UP UP UP - 22:41:03 on 3 Oct 97 GMT

Adam SO LONG, SUCKA!:Hey Thumbnail, where's you get that handle? From the nails driven through your chicken-shit savior? - 22:44:55 on 3 Oct 97 GMT

Adam DA BIRD SONG:Hey, thumb, I'm giving the son of god the finger!!! He's a weenie! - 22:46:11 on 3 Oct 97 GMT

Adam GOING, GOING, GOD!:Just like the Astros! Satan rules! 666. Sign of the beast. - 22:47:17 on 3 Oct 97 GMT

Adam SPEAKING OF GONE:See everyone on Monday PM. The Atlanta juggernaut rolls on, Jo. GO GIANTS tonight. DIE YANKEE SCUM tomorrow. And remember, folks, RELIGION = IGNORANCE! - 22:56:48 on 3 Oct 97 GMT

RON...--->Joette...:No, I pray to god/nature as I see it. I feel helpless and alone. I go into my backyard, crash to my knees and pray, and cry. I completely understand why religion loves the weak. And right now, I'm weak in all aspects. I feel I need to bring my *soul* back into balance with nature. I can't explain it more than that. I feel outside of humanity. I'm glad you now know I'm not a virtual jerk, or a net pervert. Thanks for taking the time to read the words I sent you. I've met some really wonderful people on this page and hope to see you all in person one day. On the home front---I've met someone!!! I didn't want to meet a person like her for a long time. We are so comfortable together and we talk like two old ladies. She stayed the night and it was magic. The downside is she lives in San Francisco and can only come in twice a month. I'm working on that hurdle. When I met her my heart and ears stopped functioning. She held my hand for what seemed like minutes when I met her. Time stopped, people around us disappeared. All that good sh*t happened. Now, I'm a total fruit basket. - 1:30:07 on 4 Oct 97 GMT

Peter--:--ALL---Here it is folks--twenty three pages of the most juicy and embarassing contradictions in the bible. Recommended Use: Print out the entire document, staple it together and put into manzilla envelope. Place this envelope in a safe place, so it is within a few steps of the front door of your home. The next time some holy rollers come to the door and claim there are no contradictions in the Bible, excuse yourself for a moment, get the envelope and flash this document around and say " Ok, bucko, you see what this is? It is a list of SOME contradictions in the Bible. Then start reading them off one by one as they page frantically through their bible trying to verify them. But don't slow down for them--in fact start slow, and then start speaking quicker and louder as you continue--you more than likely won't even get past the first page before they excuse themselves. If one would like to even take it a few steps further, FOLLOW them down the street spouting more of them, and even throw in some off the "atrocities" that JOette gave the URL for yesterday. We have to send a message to these bimbo's. I say: FIGHT BACK by using very same source of nonsense they have been bugging us with, and waking us up on Sunday morning with all our lives. - 3:22:18 on 4 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:The news this week in Manitoba: The RCMP are investegating Hutteritte colonies in southern Manitoba and South Dakota. A breakaway group in New York state are claiming that these colonies are sexually abusing children. While sexual abuse happens in all tyes of cultures I'm sure that it isn't an epidemic in these colonies like the break away colony likes to make out. In reality I think this is another my religion is better than yours. Although sexual abuse is a terrible offence, I think shutting children away from the rest of the world is equally as bad. Again this is done in the name of god. - 13:56:32 on 4 Oct 97 GMT

Bil...For those who missed the HELL thingy…:>>>Date: August 14 >>>Subject:Thermodynamics of Hell >>> >>>Guys, hot or cold, it will be a lonely place without G-d. >>> >>>Exothermic or Endothermic? >>> >>>A true story: A thermodynamics professor had written a take-home exam >>>for his graduate students. It had one question: "Is hell exothermic or >>>endothermic? Support your answer with a proof." Most of the students >>>wrote proofs of their beliefs using Boyle's Law or some variant. One >>>student however wrote the following: >>> >>>First, we postulate that if souls exist they must have some mass. If >>>they do, then a mole of souls must also have mass. So, at what rate are >>>souls moving into hell, and at what rate are souls leaving? I think we >>>can safely assume that once a soul gets to hell, it will not leave. >>> >>>Therefore, no souls are leaving. As for souls entering hell, let's look >>>at the different religions that exist in the world today. Some of these >>>religions state that if you are not a member of their religion you will >>>go to hell. Since there are more than one of these religions and people >>>do not belong to more than one religion, we can project that all people >>>and all souls go to hell. With birth and death rates as they are, we >>>can expect the number of souls in hell to increase exponentially. Now, >>>we look at the rate of change in volume in hell. Boyle's Law states >>>that in order for the temperature and pressure in hell to stay the same >>>the ratio of the mass of souls and volume needs to stay constant. >>> >>>1. So, if hell is expanding at a slower rate than the rate at which >>>souls enter hell, than the temperature and pressure in hell will >>>increase until all hell breaks loose. >>> >>>2. Of course, if hell is expanding at rate faster than the increase of >>>souls in hell, than the temperature and pressure will drop until hell >>>freezes over. >>> >>>So which is it? If we accept the postulate given me by Therese Banyan >>>during freshman year, and take into account the fact that I still have >>>not succeeded in having sexual relations with her, then #2 cannot be >>>true, and hell is exothermic. >>> >>>The student got the only A. - 15:20:22 on 4 Oct 97 GMT

Bill...:It's been another "sweep the floor while I walked week," if you know what I mean, ha? It may appear insane why I might volunteer to co-ordinate certain projects, but I can tell you there is a certain brain chemical "high," despite the physical exhaustiveness of projects, that results when one is allow to be creative, task others, and need others. And through it all, spend tens of thousands of our corporate dollars. The world seems to treat you with respect because they need your business and because of the synergy created by the use of other people's talents, labor, and products to produce something positive for the corporation overall. But, then again, there's always BEER! - 15:21:43 on 4 Oct 97 GMT

Bill..:Let's see, I have argued, using current scientific information, in support of a possible universe of design (god) as Mike is attempting to do here (Apples). I have also argued against deity Gods in my postings to Mike (Oranges). But now I think I need to explore, as I started to with Melissia, the possibility of, "We are God's" (fruit cocktail ---the God's of many humans--- 'cock' and 'tail', right?). Who knows what might percolate up and out through this eclectic fabric of ideas (fruitcake maybe??? don't answer yet!). In memory of the late Richard Nixon, "I am not a LIER…, or a FRUITCAKE!" Whether God's/god exists/exist or not, it seems to me that we might possibly be the apotheosis of this evolutionary, universal, creativity. Is god (the tangible and intangible universe) conscious, because we are conscious? Part of our "deterministic" ID (stimulus/response) level of our brains is linked to, and the same as, all of nature and the universe. If God (consciousness) exists then it has to be apart of our consciousness and linked to (and a manifestation of) this most basic level of nature, right? So, as you can see, I go to great lengths to entertain myself here and now that I am God, I now proclaim, "Beer time!" - 15:22:18 on 4 Oct 97 GMT

Bill..:RON, Hang in there bud you can work it out! - 15:27:31 on 4 Oct 97 GMT

Peter:--BILL--Sounds like beer time started long before you declared it. - 16:03:37 on 4 Oct 97 GMT

RON...--->Bill...: Thanks BILL, I'm trying to work it all out. The loneliness is prison. But, you know Bill, all of my prayers have been answered except one, the big one. Am I just fortifying my own will or does nature listen? Some very positive things have happened lately and I'm puzzled by their meaning. - 21:54:26 on 4 Oct 97 GMT

Bill got a little too much sun today...:Praying externally is one thing but whether you are just "fortifying your own will or not," only you can answer. Nature of course is apart of your basic mental self, so you should be able to search within for the answers. When you connect to that part of your psychic that is tied to all that IS, then one can never be lonely. How does one do this? I sit quietly and just "blank out" all (or most) conscious thoughts. The mental state I am left with is my rudimentary---baby like---awareness. The ultimate goal of all meditations is basically to reduce or limit the churning or worrying thought processes. Positive mental changes naturally occur if you can successfully limit conscious thoughts for some period of time---say 30 minutes. I know this will sound New Age to some but hey, I'm not taking up a collection, OK? Also it seems to me that making a conscious decision to get physically active---through work and exercise---can be very salutary. It becomes mentally contradictory to engage in constructive activities and at the same time feel bad or worthless about oneself. Sometimes just enduring day-by-day is what's needed, to just let some time pass, till things start to change for the better. When I get in bad situations, I try to make a game of it, and become creative, in order to turn the lemon into lemonade…. Here I go with fruit again, ha! In bad situations I try to not make too large of a demand or expectation, as to what I want to change or happen, but I just try to make daily simple positive changes for the better. And I know this might sound strange, but I have no regrets about anything in my past as it is apart of who I am today. And in case you didn't know already, I love myself, ha! While I didn't ask for or choose these past negative experiences, I wouldn't change a thing!! There IS life afterwards and I think it only becomes sweeter…not bitter like fruit, ha! Cheers to you ole Ron. Just do something fun, today. - 23:26:28 on 4 Oct 97 GMT

RON...--->BILL...: When I pray I feel as if I'm giving up the worry to someone else. I take a few minutes and just release the hurt, anger, grief, sorrow, and regret. I have regrets now because I could have made a difference a year ago, when Susan needed me the most. But, Mogas turned me into a walking coma and I let it happen. I work out now a few days a week. I've lost over 30lbs. in under two months and am beginning to love myself again. I missed me, the single me. Jennifer has made an impact that I may not be ready to accept. I needed to know that I'm worth a chance for someone else to take. I feel 100% better but, empty too. I coming closer to that *balance* everyday and it may take a long time but I'll get there. This experience has taught me some bitter lessons about relationships. I can never stick my neck out so far again. I'll never sire another child and I may never marry again. Texas is a *no fault* divorce state and that's our biggest problem. Marriage is not like a new car you can sell or trade in after a few years, it's a commitment for life. You have to be willing to stick it out and look at all your options before you jump ship on the person that cares for you. Anyway...I'm sticking to my creation ideas and not backing away from the Nephilim. After "me", hope is all I have left. - 0:58:10 on 5 Oct 97 GMT

Bill..:RON, From the way you are talking now, I think you are improving and slowly but surely working through your problems. Just keep working at it and little by little things will most likely return to normal. What works for me might not for you and only you know that which you can relate to. Everybody has to deal with bad situations and I don't think there is ONE magic formula for coping. - 1:45:35 on 5 Oct 97 GMT

Bill...:ALL,I received an email from my wife no less which reads as follows: As we all know, it takes 1 calorie to heat 1 gram of water 1 degree Celsius. Translated into meaningful terms, this means that if you eat a very cold dessert (generally consisting of water in large part), the natural processes which raise the consumed dessert to body temperature during the digestive cycle literally sucks the calories out of the only available source, your body fat. For example, a dessert served and eaten near 0 degrees C (32.2 deg F) will in a short time be raised to the normal body temperature of 37 degrees C (98.6 deg F). For each gram of dessert eaten, that process takes approximately 37 calories as stated above. The average dessert portion is 6 oz, or 168 grams. Therefore, by operation of thermodynamic law, 6,216 calories (1 cal./gm/deg x 37 deg x 168 gm) are extracted from body fat as the dessert's temperature is normalized. Allowing for the 1,200 latent calories in the dessert, the net calorie loss is approximately 5,000 calories. Obviously, the more cold dessert you eat, the better off you are and the faster you will lose weight, if that is your goal. This process works equally well when drinking very cold beer in frosted glasses. Each ounce of beer contains 16 latent calories, but extracts 1,036 calories (6,216 cal. per 6 oz. portion) in the temperature normalizing process. Thus the net calorie loss per ounce of beer is 1,020 calories. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to calculate that 12,240 calories (12oz. x 1,020 cal./oz.) are extracted from the body in the process of drinking a can of beer. Frozen desserts, e.g., ice cream, are even more beneficial, since it takes 83 cal./gm to melt them (i.e., raise them to 0 deg C) and an additional 37 cal./gm to further raise them to body temperature. The results here are really remarkable, and it beats running hands down. Unfortunately, for those who eat pizza as an excuse to drink beer, pizza (loaded with latent calories and served above body temperature) induces an opposite effect. But, thankfully, as the astute reader should have already reasoned, the obvious solution is to drink a lot of beer with pizza and follow up immediately with large bowls of ice cream. We should all be thin very soon if we adhere religiously to this pizza, beer, and ice cream diet. Happy eating. - 12:22:59 on 5 Oct 97 GMT

Bill...:Another email I received this morning was from a former atheist of this page which read: "On the island of Corfu, there's a superstition that if you see a praying mantis, it either brings you good luck - or bad luck, depending on what happens." Ian Stewart, Does God Play Dice? The New Mathematics of Chaos (Penguin Books) - 12:32:28 on 5 Oct 97 GMT

Would the above 40 age limit mean that mother T. went to hell? - 14:30:34 on 5 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:BILL- Amazing. RON- Nothing fails like prayer. NO POSTER- No, motherT, if there were such a think as heaven and hell, would have likley gone up the corporate ladder of the rc's therefore lied her way to heaven. There is really no damn difference between the xtian heaven and hell, both places one ends up serving either the big kahuna or stan. - 15:30:37 on 5 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene who normally doesn't entertain these asses:TO MA-AH ASALAMA- In many middle eastern countries the law is the koran. Why then is it, if one is only responsible for his/her beliefs after the age of 40, are there children in Syrian prisons accused of trying to over throw the government, young brides are still stoned for showing their hair and young men hang for denying allah?????????/ - 15:41:05 on 5 Oct 97 GMT

Grant:MARLENE-- Just how many servants do these guys want anyway? Thanks for the PK stuff. Too bad it can't somehow be linked here. I'm surprised there hasn't been more pk talk here.-- Due to lack of time I'm going off the duty roster here. Had to chose between internet and sleep. Best wishes all. - 16:11:48 on 5 Oct 97 GMT

Grant SOULENT GREEN IS PEOPLE:MARLENE-- Perhaps the gods (and devils) are soul eaters, and this is but a soul farm? - 16:35:59 on 5 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:GRANT- Hole-lee cat sh*%! You've hacked the password for the millenium group! Frank will be devastated! Just maybe he shouldn't have contacted the group via his computer in front of 30 million people! Even if I knew how to put the pk info on this discussion it would end up being paged down somewhat like the cedric's and noi creep's drivel. - 17:39:39 on 5 Oct 97 GMT

t:testing - 21:03:16 on 5 Oct 97 GMT

RON...--->Bill...: My life will never be normal again. I want to go on, and then I want to go back. Normal is something I don't wish to live again. I want to be all I can be. I want to see all there is to see. And, I want to share all of my life with a woman I love. Why is this so difficult? I want to be at peace with me and nature. I want to be loved, wanted, held, cared for, cherished, and die with a partner. - 22:01:34 on 5 Oct 97 GMT

Joette (I keep all my promises!):-->Grant..I think that there hasn't been all that much PK discussion is that they are only now starting to rear their ugly heads around the continent. In my part of the world, there was one very short interview about one month ago that no one seemed to have watched in the middle of the night, and then yesterday there was a large article in my local news rag. The only information I had about these sonsabitches was from what Marlene had provided me, as they seem to have infiltrated the west and are only just now slithering east. I think they are a horrendously dangerous group, and I have a feeling there will be a lot of "dirt" come out as different factions spring up due to power struggles. To me, they sound like a bunch of loser guys who have hit the bottom of the barrel, and are either to lazy, or too stupid, to figure out on their own how to straighten their lives out. No offense if there are any members of AA here, but it sounds very much like that organization, except at least AA has some tangible proof that it is doing something positive for its members (provided they are willing). - 22:04:12 on 5 Oct 97 GMT

Bill..:RON, What makes things difficult is tying your happiness to someone else and creating a conditional situation (i.e. I can never be happy unless this person or situation becomes….etc). I think until you are able to internally work things out and love yourself, it may be difficult getting someone else interested in doing so. - 23:03:53 on 5 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene..being sports-minded:Wild quess, but I think Brother Mike is in favor of the pk's and may have even went to the pray-in so he can carry the ball for jesus. - 23:19:04 on 5 Oct 97 GMT

Joette:-->MARLENE..I think you are correct. As soon as the discussion turned to the PK's, he seemed to vamoos. Mike, if you are lurking, show yourself! - 2:45:52 on 6 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- Xtians don't "lurk", they are just "humble" or as the pk's would say "huddle". - 5:12:08 on 6 Oct 97 GMT

IAN---: From The Bible’s Culinary Department...”...Hath he not sent me to the men that sit upon the wall, that they may eat their own dung, and drink their own piss with you?”...Isaiah. 36:12, also in Kings 18:12. - 12:28:54 on 6 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:HI IAN! SO! Now Ben Yahoo is aproving hits on the Hamas. LIABILITIES 10:23 For out of the womb of Isreal is born Yahoo, who has tanks and war machines for brains. No empathy dwells within Yahoo, only hate, for he orders firing squads on children throwing stones in the name of the jewish god. Yea, for thou shalt fear for all out war when Yahoo blows into the conch for Palestine is likened unto Jericho. Sadam is but a candle compared to the floodlight of Yahoo. - 14:31:04 on 6 Oct 97 GMT

Steven:PKs? would that be player killer. Pk's what a hot bed of freaks. What the hell are they crying about anyway. - 14:38:18 on 6 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:STEVEN- If you want to leave your e-mail address, I'll send you the same info I sent Joette and Grant. - 14:41:17 on 6 Oct 97 GMT

Abatsapeter- Is this the correct address? www.urb.no/brage/bible/1innerr.html - 14:45:14 on 6 Oct 97 GMT

Carl:OPEN: The PK boys, it looked like if they could first just loose some weight that would become their first step towards "feeling" better about themselves. this reminds saw a book called 'emotional intelligence' or something like, that could be interesting. Don't see what those weak minded types want or what they are after. A local news segment ran that pk report showing guys crying, dancing, holding hands, praying and well you saw and heard it too. The next news story was about some men and women cleaning up brush and garbage in their communities and the beaches of similar junk. I thought if those crybabies put their hands and efforts to work instead of praying and crying and other such feelgood nonsense, the environment and all that IS would be better off. As it turns out all they did in DC was make a mess. Was that an action of some men's fear of change, what does not change? Ans; the static, absolute and imaginary world in any theistic scribble. - 14:57:29 on 6 Oct 97 GMT

Steven:MARLENE, my email adress is ' marley@intur.net ' . - 15:21:33 on 6 Oct 97 GMT

Peter:abatsa-mccoy---Ah, not quite. Try this. - 15:35:07 on 6 Oct 97 GMT

Carl:MARLENE: I have a few books and things on Jews and they certainly know how to make the most of a given situation. They exist, as it appears to me, because this country- USA, makes it entirly possible. No USA $$$ = no Israel. They sure don't want to or don't seem to have any plans on gettin'along with anybody. Sure like your yahoo ditty. - 15:47:24 on 6 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene..bunch of pigs!:CARL- You go boy! Cry babies is a fitting description! I hope their god notices what a bunch of pigs they are and deny them access to their heaven because of it! - 15:53:14 on 6 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:PETER- Another good site! I know the bible is chock full of inconsistencies and it's hard to keep track of them all. Now we have them at our fingertips. Praise be to the creator of that site! - 15:57:49 on 6 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:LIABILITIES- Woe unto Alberta for the homophobic government of the wild rose has denied foster children unto homosexuals but encourages homes which rever the jewish god. The one and the same god that slew and mutilated 40 children for laughing at a bald man. - 16:26:36 on 6 Oct 97 GMT

Adam AT PK PERFORMANCE:It really sucked not being able to access this peanut page Saturday night. As for the PKs, I'm not prepared to condemn them for some underlying agenda that has not seemed to manifest itself in their actions, which seemed well-intentioned within the confines of their ridiculous Christian beliefs. My main problem with them is not that they're evil, but rather that they're morons; why does any man need god or Jesus to treat his family with respect and responsibility? Most of us treat women with respect (my flippant "babe" comments notwithstanding) out of a sense of mutual benefit (the social contract), not because god told us so. - 16:32:13 on 6 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:ADAM- Moronic is also an apt description but as to non-manifestation, I think your wrong. The west has been riddled with the pk crap for a few years now. Some of the xtain churches in this area support the pk movement and have attended the rallies. They have practiced what they preach and of the seven families I know of all the women have quit their jobs in order to stay home and raise their children. The tv is limited in the home, children play only with those children their parents approve of, five of the families are "home-schooling", the me are becoming politically involved in the community and trying to push xtian issues, the women are involved in the family resources of the community, the men meet twice a week at a local coffee shop, sing their praises to god and plan their next infiltration of community services....the point is that these idiots ARE active and they are a threat. In the name of "family". No one wants yo discourge men who take responsibility for their family. The family thing is just a front! - 16:52:54 on 6 Oct 97 GMT

Steven:I agree with MARLENE these PK freaks have something other than\ family values on their agenda. What was the purpose behind the rally in D.C.. I believe to gain more media attention and/or coverage. They need to make a name for themselves to gain any kind of political clout. - 17:09:16 on 6 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:STEVEN- Their agenda is to put god back into the families of America. In oder to "force" this god issue, they need political clout. For some insane reason, many feel that the ills of the world today will be cured by the lurve of jesus. These jesus mongers carry a big stick in the politcal area today. One of the sad problems in the west are broken homes. The pk's, copying off the noi in my opinion, have hit a nerve with this issue. The horribly regressive "honey" they use is the slogan "men take back your role in the family". Some women who have had a hard time trying to raise the children on their own may "give in" to the man again being "head of the household". Where does leave the so-called family? Hierarchy. Back to square one. It's regressive! - 17:31:56 on 6 Oct 97 GMT

Carl:ANY: Those ol'boys sorta miss the days when things were the way they're supposed to be. Women and children first, niggers were at the back o'the bus, and you got outta of the way o'the better man(blue bloods) just pay your bills and tithe a god(your priest). And, of course, everything is just as we say it is(remember geocentrism). Those were the good ol'days. For such insanity, they- pk types, will find it nowhere else but in some theistic scribble. Somebody here wanted war, well, perhaps it looms somewhere ahead as they nuts mean to have their way. - 18:33:16 on 6 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:CARL- These nuts have already used force to show us that they mean business. How about the bombing of abortion clinics or the shooting of abortion clinic staff. I would imagine Dr. Kavorkian(sp) needs to have some type of body guard. What's next??? - 19:00:19 on 6 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene a Corny update: :ALL- Corny is back, depressed and moody. It seems that he can not find one virgin monkey of legal age. Does anyone know where Corny could find an invisble spotted primate? Corny doesn't care about the color combination. He thought of trying out some genetic engineering but then he remembered the abomination of the human primate and decided against it. He's also been tampering with the idea of cloning himself but fear the retribution of Clinton's recent cloning law. In the meantime he'll continue with his famous work, The Liable. - 19:10:25 on 6 Oct 97 GMT

Steven:I have been reading the historical accounts of the Inquisition. What is occuring today with the PK's, the Baptist boycotts, etc.. sounds like they wish the good ole day's were back. When you could kill your neighbor as if the did something they did not like, by accusing them of heresy. Did you know that the roman catholic church still believes that it has the right to legally put someone to death for heresy. aggmmm, ackhmmhmmm, let me say for the record that i am a heretic. I hope they try to come and take me away for heresy, they will get more than a little suprise. - 19:15:25 on 6 Oct 97 GMT

Steven:KILL THE INFIDELS!!!!! - 19:16:52 on 6 Oct 97 GMT

Steven:Hey I am all for rouding up the PKers and gasing them all. Or better yet lets put them in a RACK and stretch and stretch until they confess that the god they believe in is a myth. Better yet, how about a good Iron Maiden, or lets put thumbscrews on them, or boil them alive , or hmmmmm, how about hanging them on walls with shackles and then put weights around their feet, until they confess that jesus was a homocidal murdering freak. Any Ideas - 19:20:18 on 6 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:STEVEN- Good thing we still have freedom of speach in the west. Not so, in many countries. Remember on voting day to really examine who stands for what and remember the fronts they use. - 19:22:48 on 6 Oct 97 GMT

Steven:We need freedom to torture. To gather all christians up and MAKE them admit their evil lies for all to hear. (I am useing the Inquisition as my model) Then after destroying all vestiges of christianity, we can go after the jews, muslims, budist, hindu, mormon (especially), etc... If they will not cofess their heresy, simply kill them. By burning at the stake of course. - 19:29:40 on 6 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:STEVEN- Or sentence them to an eternity of playing harps while sitting on a cloud, or having to sit through 100,000 reruns of the Billy Graham Show, or 50 years of worshipping the picture of mother T, - 19:30:09 on 6 Oct 97 GMT

Steven:or 50 years of searching in oatmeal bowls for the portrait of the virin mary. - 19:31:38 on 6 Oct 97 GMT

Steven:uhhhh that should be virgin! virgins are cool huh, huh - 19:32:30 on 6 Oct 97 GMT

Steven:I am rereading a book called Raptor by Gary Jennings. In case no one has read this book, do so. It is quit a good read. Jennings has some interesting commentary on the church during the time period the book was written in. - 19:36:00 on 6 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:STEVEN, hey you've got the perfect torture! - 19:36:16 on 6 Oct 97 GMT

Peter:MARLENE---Some site, isn't it? One of my faves, that I love to throw in the face of the fundies is when the Bible refers to the Nephilites before the great flood, and then refering to them again AFTER the flood--which is quite a feat as apparently all but Noah's family perished during this historic event....And these PK's. What in the name of human sanity is this all about? I can see a member coming home to his wife " Oh, honey I will be peaceful and kind, put God before everything, but there is a catch: I know up till now we've had a 50-50 marriage bitch--I AM IN CHARGE!!! Won't THIS make for a peaceful domestic envionment? It makes me want to vomit. - 19:59:15 on 6 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene..it will go like this...:PETER- You see the guy won't come right out and say "bitch, I am in charge", no, this is the "sweetness" of it all. He will say "I no longer drink, smoke, bet on ball games, only go out with my chistian brothers and now I sit at the head of the table with you and the kids. And you know honey who has done this for me honey, it's the lord! The lord has brought me back to my family and has led me become responsible for my family. From now on the lord will help me take care of all of you, I will look after the finances, you must stay home and raise the children the way the lord sees fit. The television remote will lock out all evil programing so that all we'll watch on tv is the religion and sports channels. Since you won't be working out, you'll have as much time as you need, honey to do the housework and cook wholesome meals for my family. BTW, the brothers in christ are coming over tonight to discuss the pray-in at the school asking the lord to destroy the sex-education class. I need a ironed shirt, meat pies and sauage rolls and coffee served in the den. And please keep the children quiet and make sure the bathroom is clean and fresh towels are set out. Oh! BTW an apple pie would be nice, we paln to watch the game after the meeing! - 20:46:32 on 6 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:PETER- Excuse the typos! - 20:48:42 on 6 Oct 97 GMT

Adam TAKE A PK:Marlene et al: I wasn't aware of the micro-involvement of the PKs of which you spoke. I'll keep an eye out. Meanwhile, this morning on Stern, Robin Quivers pointed out that all the PKers she saw on TV were unattractive, and Howard suggested that that made sense: Attractive men, who can cheat and flirt, would never make those sorts of commitments to their wives. - 20:59:48 on 6 Oct 97 GMT

Adam---Steven :Alright already! You realize, of course, that a theist will visit the peanut page and not only take your posts seriously, but also attribute them to all page denizens. - 21:04:26 on 6 Oct 97 GMT

Adam ON LOST VIRGINITY:I was looking for the address of a major Atlanta law firm today in Martindale-Hubbel lawyers' directory and accidently noticed an Atlanta firm called Slaughter & Virgin. One of their practice areas is---would you guess?---wrongful death! I hadn't realized there was such a hot volcano-based practice. Oddly, it is Mr. Virgin who does the wrongful death stuff (and matrimonial), and not Mr. Slaughter. WAIT THERE'S MORE: On the SAME DIRECTORY PAGE is Atlanta's Slappey & Sadd. Who would hire such a firm? - 21:09:48 on 6 Oct 97 GMT

Carl:ANY: That pk-kind of thinking brings to anyone's mind the kinds of dumb-bell symbolism that we all know about. What are these idiots afraid of, if they do not seek a rudimentary control? Lets not forget theism but symbolises at this time here, idiocy. At this site we contest it at every and any peep in favor of that idiocy. When the dust and what n'all settles, an idiot is still there. To move, if they don't, however, think and work for things but want it given to them instead, what we have are either obviously only idiots or a children and s.clause scenario. These overweight crybabies still choose that idiocy of theism, instead of opting to maybe dirty their hands to clean up whatever they can. - 21:11:08 on 6 Oct 97 GMT

Carl:OPEN: Someone here mentioned one of the more recent theist visitors as possibly have a link to the pk show. I've been waiting for the one I had an exchange of ideas. I mean to ask him why he resorted to using archaic words for his efforts. I was all set to urge that he was not the theist he thought himself to be, as he was more likely a simple mystic. Perhaps he'll appear again. - 22:26:06 on 6 Oct 97 GMT

Carl:ANY: a colleague here says o'the pk-thing, he saw some men affirming their faith and not anything more. This may be on target but MARELENE, was it you perhaps a year or so past brought their site to our attention where its literature was heavily laden with poor writing and sentence structure, and so on? That is what i recall about these good ol'boys. Anyway, my kick is agin'the apparent lack o'functioning grey-matter, you know- the stuff between the ears. - 23:02:41 on 6 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:CARL- Would you be referring to Brother Mike? After you comment "simple mystic" as opposed to "theist", he should be zooming in on us at any time, unless, of course the pk's suggested he not converse with us. I see BClinton has pulled some tapes out of the closet. His comment on this I find really funny. When my son was little and he got caught in a fictional story he made up to get out of the trouble he was in, he told me that he neglected to tell me the truth and it was "from an accident" that he did this. BClinton must have been talking to my son! - 23:03:50 on 6 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:CARL- It may have been a year ago. I've been following their movements for quite some time. I likely referred you to one of their sites on the web. True, many lack grey matter (or functioning grey matter at least) but this is a group to watch out for. One doesn't need to be educated or need to even think too terribly much to belong to this movement. The more men in the group, the more voters at election time...for the very issues that would take away freedom and put in place a government combined with religion. - 23:11:46 on 6 Oct 97 GMT

Adam---> Au Resevoir!:I'm off to watch the Yankees and the football. But you guys have GOT to see the posts of an utter moron I'm arguing with on the Athens Forum site. See y'all tomoree. - 0:15:42 on 7 Oct 97 GMT

Adam:Oops! That's http://www.geocities.com/cgi-bin/bb/message/139/3/24 - 0:16:59 on 7 Oct 97 GMT

Peter:---Adam---I thoroughly enjoyed your posts to Untermensch on that Aten's chat! I was doubled over when he alluded to all these people being murdered as a result of heart disease!!! And all those lies you told--with all that rhetoric!! - 3:28:55 on 7 Oct 97 GMT

Peter:---MARLENE---Your description of a PK coming home sounds chillingly accurate. Reminds me of some retro "Ward and June Cleaver" ideal, that even didn't really exist BACK THEN. - 3:33:25 on 7 Oct 97 GMT

L & H...:Hi. - 5:35:23 on 7 Oct 97 GMT

IAN...:From The Bible’s Culinary Department.(2)...”The Lord Commanded:"And thou shalt eat it as barley cakes, and thou shaly bake it with dung that cometh out of man, in their sight." - Ezekial 4:12 - 11:46:50 on 7 Oct 97 GMT

RON...--->Ian...: No thanks, I'll pass on the bread. Please pass the potatoes. - 13:05:58 on 7 Oct 97 GMT

IAN---RON...:How dare you be so rude! From The Bible’s Culinary Department.(3)..."And ye shall eat flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat." ---Leviticius 26:29 - 13:37:02 on 7 Oct 97 GMT

IAN---RON...: In fact, I'm so upset, I shall give you more:- From The Bible’s Culinary Department.(4)..."And thou shalt eat the fruit of thine own body, the flesh of thy sons and of thy daughters, which the Lord thy God hath given thee..." Deuteronomy 28:53 - 13:40:06 on 7 Oct 97 GMT

Joette:-->CHEF IAN..no wonder the mortality rate was what it was...I guess they were strictly carnivores! - 13:57:32 on 7 Oct 97 GMT

Joette:-->STEVEN..re the Gary Jennings book you mentioned (is it "Raptor" like the basketball team, or "Rapture" like idiocy). What time period is it written about? (I like his books, especially "Aztec") - 14:00:07 on 7 Oct 97 GMT

Carl:ADAM: I really would like to follow a plan that would keep me from gutter talk regarding theists by referring to them as mystics since they have not yet pointed out their god. Liked your prayer asking for his/her/its acknowledgement, i saw no replies, were you sincere? I thought you were, in fact, were i not but checkin'out your URL, i mighta mistaken that sincerity for one o'Luthers' morning or evening prayers- but no reply. If you or any others get a chance, pickup a copy o'B.Russells' "Mysticism and Logic" MARLENE, you made the correct connection, it is too bad that i don't have a quick-recollective mind so as to properly respond to those who distort good-thinking or writing with a selective snipet of such. This can't be honestly said of theistic scripture, especially in view of the biblical innerrancy site. - 14:49:29 on 7 Oct 97 GMT

Steven:JOETTE, the book is set in Germany about 10 yrs after the Hun invasion. It gives very accurate portrails of the time period. It describes very well, as you should know from reading Aztec, the time period, customs of the people, religions, etc... I think if you liked Aztec, and you enjoy the time period of the middle ages you will love this book. - 14:56:57 on 7 Oct 97 GMT

Steven:I think while I was drinving into work this morning I saw the virgin mary in my granol bar. I shred a tear of joy at this mircle bestowed upon me by the GREAT CORNY - 15:01:31 on 7 Oct 97 GMT

---IAN---Great, great recipes. Do you know of a website where some of these are listed, as I am getting the impression there is more. These are are always handy little tidbits to throw back into anyone's face who refers to the bible as the "good book" with this semi-conscious glaze in their eyes, reminiscent of those who participate in those always-so-constructive "candlelight vigils" - 15:15:26 on 7 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene hole-lee sheep sh*%!:STEVEN- Seeing the bvm in the granola bar was not of GC's works! Corny abhors granola other than the kind with bananna chips. Beware for this may be a sign of the constipated god of the sheep. - 15:21:59 on 7 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:IAN- And the xtians think head shrinkers are savages! - 16:05:28 on 7 Oct 97 GMT

Steven:MARLENE, are you saying that the evil constipated god of sheep has attempted to sway me from the great CORNY. If this is the case I had better recite 10 holy sheep shits, 10 cornholio prayers, and 10 hours of ritual ship dung praying. - 17:46:43 on 7 Oct 97 GMT

Adam---->:L&H....HOWDY! - 18:09:18 on 7 Oct 97 GMT

Adam ONE MAN SHOW::Peter, was it not underhanded and wretched for me to launch such a unilateral attack? Maybe if one or more of you post into the Athens conversation, I can be proud to part of an upstanding multilateral assault. - 18:11:36 on 7 Oct 97 GMT

Adam Don't Quote Me?:Oops! Forgot the quote answer to my Friday post. "AND WITH THE GUTS OF THE LAST PRIEST LET US STRANGLE THE LAST KING" was attributed to French Atheist DENIS DIDEROT in Charles Bufe's The Heretic's Handbook of Quotations. As I said, DD did some time for blasphemy, and would have turned 284 this past Sunday were he not pushing up posies. - 18:16:24 on 7 Oct 97 GMT

Adam GREAT SCHISM AHEAD--Speed Limit 30 KPH:Marlene: Shortly I will reveal the TRUTH I have discovered recently in a simple text that I now know to be the TRUE GOSPEL. When those who have been deceived by the imposter Corny behold these scriptures, the will see the error of their ways. The great irony is that this holy text has been before us since we were young, and we all know it's simple truth already. REVELATION anon: Ye will repent! - 18:21:54 on 7 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene channeling Corny:ADAM- There Liable is Corny's word for Corny says, "IamTheWay, there is no other way to consumerism but through me. For all others are not liable but only through me comes a guarantee. All others are imposters!" - 18:30:17 on 7 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene it is written in:CITATIONS 6:66 He who spits into the wind should expect it to fly back in his face. - 19:24:18 on 7 Oct 97 GMT

Steven:LEVITAPUSS 06:09 states as follows. "one who fails to take bath shall smelleth" and Levitapuss 4:20 states as follows: "One who smokes hemp shall be lifted" - 19:34:08 on 7 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene (we really have to find something to discuss here!):STEVEN- Although the Anodyne Feline words of wisdom are tolerable the GC, they are but litter compared to The Liable. - 20:12:32 on 7 Oct 97 GMT

Steven:ANY, I have been reading "Forgery in christianity" and this book makes me sick to my stomach. The christian faith needs to be exterminated. How can a moral/ethical human being ever believe in christian garbage. I hate to sound extreme, but it pisses \ me off. I keep posting notes that challenge in peice of crap christian to prove anything they believe, and have as yet received nothing. Will enough people one day say enough and start persecuting the christians. I think a little pay back is in order. - 21:02:44 on 7 Oct 97 GMT

Carl:STEVEN: I expect that book in a few weeks, I read thru the URL site you made available. It is clearly unbelievable and completely unbelievable that any honest thinking human can conclude that a diety of any order stands for that stuff. Again, my single most invariant objection to these "mystical" types is their lack of honest intellectual activity when they consider this topic. They opt for the unsanity of scripture which is only childlike scribble. Did you look at the site "Origins of Christianity"? It may somehow aid a reader if they could read the article "Was Hegal a christian or atheist" or something like that. - 21:37:11 on 7 Oct 97 GMT

PETER:--STEVEN---Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't there even MORE Muslims than christians--if not, there are still a bazillion of them, and they are just as looney--if not more --than the christians!!--ADAM---I think you must have made point to Ueberroth yesterday, as he did not respond--man, what an idiot--a unilateral idiot!!! - 21:48:54 on 7 Oct 97 GMT

Carl:ADAM: earlier i was unable to wrapup my post, i meant to eventually say that I would, as often as possible, refrain from belittling them, like the recent visiting theists, as if they had real concerns. Theism is unfounded, entirely, it is nil but, such people- as those visitors, are mystical. They seek others who they may share their moments when a new awareness a new series of synaptic connections flashed to on, these folks want merely to conserve such moments because such pscho-logic moments are raritys for them. The word idiot may still apply, though, as the olden Greeks meant it, 'one who knows what no-one else knows' or something like that is the best i recall. - 23:01:34 on 7 Oct 97 GMT

Adam "I Am," I Cried; "I am," said I:Misguided Marlene: You soon will learn in a very BIG way the meaning of "I AM." When it hits the fan, Corny and followers better duck but quick. - 2:07:40 on 8 Oct 97 GMT

Adam OFF on a UNILATERAL LYING EXCURSION:I'll be back in a bit...I want to see if community college dropout christian has any other words of wisdom for me on the Athens Forum. All peanutty page denizens aew WELCOME. All are welcome in the light. Go into the light.... - 2:13:41 on 8 Oct 97 GMT

Adam I'M MULTILATERAL!!!:Thanks, gang! I just flew in from Athens and boy, is my airplane tired! The way that thing branches out, it now takes an hour to respond to everyone. I will say this for that site---I wish we had that "preview" step here on the peanut gallery! - 3:20:07 on 8 Oct 97 GMT

Adam---->:Steven, this guy Ian put up a couple of posts, one in direct resopnse to you, over on Athens. - 3:22:22 on 8 Oct 97 GMT

IAN...... (last of the eats depetment. Justice next...:From The Bible’s Culinary Department.(5)..."So we boiled my son, and did eat him: and I said unto her on the next day, Give thy son, that we may eat him: and she hath hid her son." - 12:50:47 on 8 Oct 97 GMT

IAN.-.-.-.-: From The Bible’s Justice Department (1)....When men strive together with one another, and the wife of the one draweth near for to deliver he husband out of the hand of him that smiteth him, and putteth forth her hand, and taketh him by the secrets (genitals): Then thou shalt cut off her hand, thine eye shall not pity her."...Deuteronomy 25:11-12 - 13:52:10 on 8 Oct 97 GMT

Toff:hehehe... let us commence the discourse on what we all don't believe on??? hmmm... now there's intelligence for you. If you hate Christianity so much, why not just steer clear of it? No one forces you to believe it. - 15:35:22 on 8 Oct 97 GMT

Peter:---IAN----Ohhh Isn't Leviticus and Deuteronomy just chock full of tasty little tid-bits like these. Ahhh, the good book it is. Keep them coming!! - 15:35:54 on 8 Oct 97 GMT

Ian... why do you take Scripture out of context, and then never focus on what the Bible REALLY says? ie. Grace, love, mercy, compassion, salvation? You always bring up these obscure Old Testament quotations to try and disgust your atheist friends with lies. - 15:37:09 on 8 Oct 97 GMT

Toff:Ian... why do you take Scripture out of context, and then never focus on what the Bible REALLY says? ie. Grace, love, mercy, compassion, salvation? You always bring up these obscure Old Testament quotations to try and disgust your atheist friends with lies. - 15:38:53 on 8 Oct 97 GMT

Bro Tom:Hello folks, Abatsabird, alias GodisManMade has invited me to this site. I hang on a theological chat most of the time. My thesis is that what most atheists reject is the christian RELIGION, and with just cause. The other rejection of most atheists is a "bad God image". Monty Python would then say, "and now for something completly different" What I offer is a relationship with a loveing God. It is not religion, it is relationship. Are you interested in exploring the possibilites? - 15:41:05 on 8 Oct 97 GMT

Peter:--Toff---Amidst your insulting nature, are you asking what the signifigance of atheism is then? - 15:41:15 on 8 Oct 97 GMT

Peter:--Bro Tom--Very good. Now why don't you give an intelligible description of what "God" is? Until you do so, any reference to "God" is cognitively empty. - 15:47:11 on 8 Oct 97 GMT

Peter:--Toff--What do you mean "lies"?!!! These are actual quotations taken from the Bible!! The Truth hurts sometimes doesn't it? - 15:50:15 on 8 Oct 97 GMT

Bro Tom:God is a being with whom we can communicate. God is creator and healer whose essence is "selfless, committed, unconditional love" (AGAPE). God is spirit in nature. God desires us to have an initmate, personal realtionship with Him. - 15:53:25 on 8 Oct 97 GMT

Dan Barker:You can site 100 references to show that the Biblical God is a blood thirsty tyrant, but if they can dig up two or three verses that say "God is love" they will claim that you are taking things out of context. - 16:13:36 on 8 Oct 97 GMT

Bro Tom:Dan Barker...it depends on your perspective. Also, I am not an inerrantist nor a fundimentalist. Cite away, that is man's perspecitve of God as bloody tyrant. The God I know is one who cares about people. - 16:16:05 on 8 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:BRO TOM the Non- FunDIMmentalist--You could have fooled me! Tell me, how can someone have a relationship with something that does not exsist? - 16:30:10 on 8 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:TOFF who dares to SCOFF--It's you xtians that claim your bible is the "Truth". It's the most violent, control based piece of literary garbage I've ever read. - 16:41:03 on 8 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene de je vous?:PETER- Bro Tom like Bro Mike, (coincidental, no?) can only tell us what they imagine their god can do but still can define what their god is. - 16:44:04 on 8 Oct 97 GMT

muhamme:Greetings: The more advances we make in science, especially in the realm of the minutest particles, the more eloquent become the arguments for the existence of a creator, yes ONE God. If today we were to recieve even one intelligent sentence from space, after verification, all the scientists of the world would confirm that proof of intelligent life, elsewhere in the universe, has been found. However not only one but billions of intelligent messages exist in our DNA and yet the same scientists dont even bother to look at them in confirmation of the intelligent creator. these are perverted standards in a dogma of atheism. I would like to invite you all to visist http://members.aol.com/silence004 where many of such facts are narrated for the objective scientist. - 18:37:52 on 8 Oct 97 GMT

Carl:MUHAMME: You mystics, one and all, share the same problem as you seek to relate your notions of a diety. Another living breathing human has to accept what "you" say or put forth in words. And, if history is any kind of indicator, "you" mystics must have your way or the death of and war with those who don't accept you non-sense follows- is next. If your diety was so wonderful it would zap you with a bolt o'liten' and be over with you, for destroying that which chooses- is heretical, by utilising a brain. i scanned your site, all i see is some other human seeking control of others, why, there is nothing diety like outside your imagination. - 19:48:34 on 8 Oct 97 GMT

Peter:---BroTom---And if I talk to myself I get precisely the same effect. So how does one know that this "god" is developing a relationship? Also, could you please be a little more precise with the term "spirit in nature"--this sounds interesting. MARLENE--I have yet to hear one. But I'm still listening! DAN BARKER: Tell me, what IS love? - 19:52:18 on 8 Oct 97 GMT

Adam WHAT ABOUT OUR RELATIONSHIP, OTTO?:You know, I tried to have a relationship with god, but god is a jealous god, and wanted a commitment just because we had a brief and wild fling. So, I told god I needed more space. And god said, "what do you mean, 'more space'?" And I said, you are an omnicient and omnipresent being---YOU TAKE UP A LOT OF GODDAMNED SPACE! Well, god threw a hissy fit and destroyed Gomorrah and turned Princess Die into a pillar of reinforced concrete, so I told god it would take a MIRACLE to make me want god to call me anymore. So god said, "OK, you want a miracle? I'll make Elton John's ridiculous fifth-grade-level rewrite of a song originally written to Marilyn Monroe the best selling song in HISTORY, even surpassing "White Christmas"!" And I said, not only are you a jealous god, but you are a freakin' literal and thickheaded god; When I said it would take a miracle, I was speaking figuratively, and besides, although I am amazed by your miracle, it was not the sort of miracle I would have had in mind were I BEING literal. So god asked what sort of miracle I meant. I suggested breast implants, and god got really pissed off. So I told god not to call me or use omniscience to figure out my unlisted number. God called once, asking if god left diamond-stud earrings at my place. I think that was just a pretext, so I told god I'm now datin' Satan, and god hasn't called since. Look, it's nice to have someone to be sympatico with, but take it from a man who knows: This relationship-with-god thing is WAY overrated. - 20:46:25 on 8 Oct 97 GMT

Adam INSECURE & SEEKING KUDOS:Was that really as funny as it seemed to me on a readback? - 20:49:00 on 8 Oct 97 GMT

Carl:B.TOM: You must be very important and know wisdom that stands in defiance of mere words, seein' as you know a god and all. Does this thing exist outside you somewhere? Has this thing relayed a cure for cancer? Did this thing relay to your ears the needs of education and learning over belief, or does it toe the party line as laid out by paul, that you gotta believe? Does one have to go with all the myths, like when it made the world stand still, did this thing clear up the matter of Ecc 1:4 and 2 Pet 3:10? And what about that mohamet thing, or the bahai's? - 21:00:10 on 8 Oct 97 GMT

Carl:ADAM: that was funny, if the mystics god has any humor about it, then it laughs too. - 21:19:55 on 8 Oct 97 GMT

Peter:---Yea ADAM, I'd say your best so far. Now, will BroTom return? That is the question. - 21:37:10 on 8 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:ADAM- It was entertaining for me! And BTW if god ever grants you those breast implants, I want to march right down to Hooters and put in an application! - 21:50:45 on 8 Oct 97 GMT

Adam--->Carl (aside to Joette):I believe it was the prophet Tug McGraw who first credibly postulated that "You Gotta Believe!" - 22:24:09 on 8 Oct 97 GMT

Carl:ADAM: I made a coupla'ttempts to jump into the pie throwin'contest at the other site. Does it\they regulate or do a delay sort o'review prior to allowing the posts to appear? If there's one thing those ole boys won't be noted for it is a noteworthy intelligence index. - 22:30:40 on 8 Oct 97 GMT

Steven:I believe the xtians were just advertising. - 22:37:34 on 8 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene pondering...:STEVEN- Maybe Bro Tom is aka Bro Mike... - 22:42:27 on 8 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:Just a little more humor. Warning to sheep, this may just be a little too graphic for you! - 22:55:22 on 8 Oct 97 GMT

Sister Jo:-->ADAM...your post was as funny as the Marlins' performance today! Not really..it was great, oh mystical master of words! - 23:16:56 on 8 Oct 97 GMT

Joette:-->MARLENE..enjoyed the 'toons. Have you ever seen the one that got Larry Flynt in trouble? It shows jesus hanging from a telephone pole and is hilarious! - 23:18:56 on 8 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:OKAY ADAM, who wrote this?--Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" - 23:21:32 on 8 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:SISTER JO aka Joette- No, is it on the net anywhere? Poor Mamma T, huh? - 23:24:01 on 8 Oct 97 GMT

Adam---> I don't know, ABEL, maybe?:You know, I'm just having a riot over on Athens. Not just in the branched discussion in the religeon luncheon room, but if you click here and go to the master page of general discussion, there's a litany of lunacy to which to respond with wit and sarcasm. My god, it's like shooting pool in a barrel! Oh, and Marlene the blasphene and fellow Corn Nuts, the TRUE ONE conveys the following: "Thou Shalt Know That I AM, and Who I AM, Quick as Thou Can Sayest 'Spam!' or 'Shazam!' I DO NOT LIKE THEM, those who shalt not heed what they shalt read." Man-O-Shevitz, the suspense is gonna KILL me, but I am sworn not to leakest His Word. - 0:00:13 on 9 Oct 97 GMT

Peter:--MARLENE---I think that was Hume that came up with this one. I've tried cornering a few fundies with this one, as well as the old "the idea omniscience contradicts the attribute of omnipotence" which I'm sure you have seen me try to do several times here--but to no avail. The funie's just keep piling the ad hoc assumptions saying stuff like "What is evil to us, is not evil to God" etc. etc. which renders the concept of "evil" as meaningless, as we can never then distinguish it ( in God's eyes ) from the "good". And then, like Mike did, they attempt to redefine the meanings of "omniscience and omnipotence" and alter the definitions--just to fit into their usual vague, evasive, fallacious and smug style of debate. - 2:28:05 on 9 Oct 97 GMT

IAN>.>.>...:From The Bible’s Justice Department (1)....When men strive together with one another, and the wife of the one draweth near for to deliver he husband out of the hand of him that smiteth him, and putteth forth her hand, and taketh him by the secrets (genitals): Then thou shalt cut off her hand, thine eye shall not pity her."...Deuteronomy 25:11-12 - 12:08:59 on 9 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:IAN- De Je Vous, guy! You posted that one the other day. ADAM- Corny says that, CITATIONS "those that fear leakethness, are filled with hot air". PETER- That little ditty originated with Epicurus. - 14:00:00 on 9 Oct 97 GMT

Mois:Ian stop quoting that. - 15:01:53 on 9 Oct 97 GMT

Toff:I have a non-malicious question for atheists: why spend all this time and effort mulling over something you don't believe in? I mean, I don't believe in pink elephants that fly at night time... but I don't set up a web page and a society about it. - 15:03:58 on 9 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene :TOFF- We set up this web page BECAUSE we would like to see progression in the human species, not regression. Some of are not sheep and are smart enough not to be led to slaughter. Xtianity is a death cult, plain and simple. Humans who cling to this myth are not only selfish but are also too lazy to concentrate on the well being of future generations. This may give you a better understanding where atheists are coming from. - 15:31:55 on 9 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene :OOPS- forgot a "W"! Try again - 15:34:56 on 9 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:PETER- I think you asked someone a while back, "What is love?". Stenger also has a essay on this in the previous address. - 15:38:51 on 9 Oct 97 GMT

Joette:-->TOFF..non-malicious reply..I guess for the same reason believers in holy ghosts, men in the sky etc. set up organizations for things they believe in. Should not an atheist have the same right? - 15:48:54 on 9 Oct 97 GMT

Steven:TOFF, after all the persecution that the xtian's have dished out, \ it feels good to talk about it and get the disgusted feelings we have over the heinous crimes that religous people have committed off of our chest. - 15:55:08 on 9 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene :ALL- Remember the shepherd, Brother Mike and his claim Tipler is an atheist yet he has proven that god exsists with the "Anthropic Principle"????? Well, one of my favorite writers also has something to say on the "atheist" Tipler. - 16:07:40 on 9 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:Again I did it! I'll try again. - 16:11:38 on 9 Oct 97 GMT

PETER------>>TOFF-----:----This is a question which theists ask me from time to time, and it is a good question. Atheism is not a positive belief--it is an abscence of a belief--but nevertheless it does not offer any constructive principles, so one may ask--of what value is it? If atheism could be compared to not believing, as you say in "pink elephants that fly at night", why is it important? Atheism is important because theism is important. The subject of god is not a remote, abstract topic with little influence in the lives of men. On the contrart, it is the core of Western religion-specifically, the Judaeo-Christian tradition--which includes a system of doctrines dealing with every branch of philosophy. If one believes, as I do, that theism is not only false, but is detrimental to man as well, then the choicebetween theism and atheism assumes a major importance. If considered purely as an abstract idea, theism may be dismissed without extended discussion. But when considered within its proper context--within the framework of its historical, cultural, philosophical and psychological signifigance--the question of god is among the most crucial subjects of our time. Although atheism is negative in character, it need not be as many theists assume-destructive. When used to eradicate superstition and its detrimental efects, atheim is a benevolent, constructive approach. It clears the air, as it were, leaving the door open for positive principles and philosophies based, not on the supernatural, but on man's ability to think and comprehend. Reigion has had the disastrous effect of placing vitally importyant concepts, such as morality, happiness and love, in a supernatural realm inaccessible to man's mind and knowledge. Morality and religion have become so intertwined that many people cannot conceive of ethics divorced from god, even in principle--which leads to the assumption that the atheist is out to destroy values. Atheism, however, is not the destruction of morality; it is the destruction of SUPERNATURAL morality. Likewise, atheism is not the destruction of happiness and love; it is the destruction of the IDEA that happiness and love can only be achieved only in another world. Atheism brings ideas down to earth, within the reach of man's mind. What he does with them after that point is a matter of choice. If he discards them in favour of pessimism and nihilism. the respondsibility lies with him, not with atheism. By svering any possible appeal to the supernatural--which, in terms of human knowledge, means the unknowable--atheism demands all issues be dealt with through reason and human understanding; they cannot be sloughed-off onto a mysterious god. If atheism is correct, man is alone. there is no god to think for him, watch out for him, to guarantee his happiness. These are the sole responsibility of man. If a man wants success--he must work. If man wants to be happy, he must strive to achieve it. Many would consider a godless world to be a terrifying prospect; others experience it as a refreshing, exhilarating challenge. How a person will react to atheism depends only on himself--and the extent which he is willing to assume responsibility for his own choices and actions. - 16:17:51 on 9 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:PETER- Very well said! - 16:27:24 on 9 Oct 97 GMT

Carl:MARLENE: thank the "good" lord that does not want ignorance and myth and superstition to prevail that you brought up that site. I had seen it before, but lost track of it. It is now some of the writings i collect. The "evil" lord likes those things especially, - 16:43:17 on 9 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:CARL- Actually Corny has decided to create a new addition to The Liable in which the Great Corny itself will cease to exsist but in the mind of it's creator. Corny feels that there are two sides to every story, the side of reality which will be presented in the Liable as VICTOR VICTORIOUS and the other side will contain reality distorted but with a minute iota of presence. - 17:09:08 on 9 Oct 97 GMT

Carl:MARLENE: tipler surely lacks scientific discipline, and of course also basic good sense. i have seen that word 'anthropic' in use and like other symbols,e.g., belief or faith, out of the wrong mouth or off of the wrong hands it can bode ill. In the earlier post to you i was just foolin'round, but i did loose that site sometime back. i pondered a response that PETER made, it was a good response PETER, but deferred that action, that individual lacked sincerity. AMIE for example held herself in her thoughts. - 17:15:58 on 9 Oct 97 GMT

Toff:Peter, I only had five hours on the net, so I couldn't read all you said!!! hehehe. But thanks anyway for taking the time to explain you views in a lot less malicious way than this STEVEN bloke who wants to see every Christian strung up and die. Now my second question: as a people who commonly believe that there is no after life... no hope of continuation of the soul... ARE YOU READY TO LIVE OUT YOUR FAITH IN THIS FACT??? Are you ready to live a life with NO HOPE? That one day you will simply DIE and CEASE TO EXIST? Atheism, while its existence is valid I guess, seems to me to be the coldest religion of the all, apart from, of course, the Viking Religion! Steve, would you kill ME for all the evil things people I never knew did? I am a very kind and gentle and loving person... I support the community and cause no-one harm... why so much hatred directed bluntly at all Christians? Despite the evils of organised religion, which I dislike maybe as much as you do, surely you can see the love, truth, and hope contained within Jesus' gospel message? - 17:54:16 on 9 Oct 97 GMT

Toff:P.S. Peter... then why do atheists like Stevo have so much hate? Surely the only REAL cause of atheism is the fact that many people in the past have been hurt by hypocritical churches or people who have no idea about what the gospel is REALLY about (ie. Love)? You may think me ingorant to place my hope, faith and love in Jesus Christ, but all I know is that as a result of my faith in Him, my life is much better, I love more myself, I help others in need as much as I can, I have peace, joy and happiness from my faith. SURELY this is not a bad thing? Who will point out to me the evil of my belief, or it's detrimental effect on society? Most non-believers I know don't give a damn about anyone but themselves. - 18:00:23 on 9 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene :TOFF- Did you at least read the sites I left for you or are you one of those idiotic xtians that feel females are inferior or too direct a link to original sin for you to tamper with??? Atheism does not require faith nor is a belief system therefor it is not a religion. - 18:03:45 on 9 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene..hello Toff females are human too:TOFF- That's quite a judgement on non-believers! Most I know do give a shit about others and the fact that they do care is why they disagee with the word of your god. - 18:06:57 on 9 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:TOFF- In addition, does your religion not teach you to not judge others? Why is it that believers have a real problem with that? More problems with that than oringinal sin? - 18:10:35 on 9 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:TOFF-O--One more thing. It's truly sad that in order to be a better person, kind and loving, you need to believe in a myth! - 18:16:58 on 9 Oct 97 GMT

Carl:TOFF: you seem to take for granted something about the word "faith"? what might that be as you mean to apply it to atheism? For now it looks as though you think something that you do not know nor have you ever seen nor heard a word uttered from its lips, a thing jesus. You say you are a better being because of that jesus thing, you "say" it is so. What am i or must anyone think was true, what you "say" about something you have never seen, or merely what you have done- action you did? I could say of your actions you claim to have done were true if one of those you helped, said you did help them. Why do you think you ought to say something you have not seen or heard caused you to be good? How did that jesus thing affect you? Did you hear voices, was the voice so compelling that you had no will of your own, or did it take over your body and did that good thing for you so that now you have no choice but to say "it" did that good thing. You just want us to believe you and probably you lie about yourself, and nothing more. - 18:30:27 on 9 Oct 97 GMT

Steven:Kudos to Peter, I couldn't have said it better. Bravo! - 18:30:58 on 9 Oct 97 GMT

Rob:ALL: Is it just me, or does "caring about others" have much more to do with personal psychological characteristics than the existence/non-existence of a deity??? - 18:54:29 on 9 Oct 97 GMT

Carl:TOFF: As you, perhaps can tell, i for one will not fall for your childish game of "what's that over there" regarding existence and facts. If you did not know it by now, if you are not of the gay-life style pursuasion, then probably all you are is sack o'cells, and each and every cell wants only to reproduce itself. Of course like you i too have an imagination but, it does not control me nor drive me on, it serves me. - 19:07:37 on 9 Oct 97 GMT

Steven:TOFF, it is my belief and many others that christianity is the largest murderous organization that civilization has ever seen. The fact that the largest majority of my race was exterminated by christians because we were considered heathenous barbarians may have something to do with my feelings. The fact that your religion is a man made mythology, a hodgepodge of religions that are thousands of years older than christianity. The pure fact that the bible you believe in is nothing but bloody stories of your God murdering infants, animals, women, men and anything that your 'god' did not approve of. The fact that your faith labels other people and creates negative feelings. The fact that your religion, christianity, it the only religion that has ever existed that says " you believe in what I believe in or you will die", its called heresy. The fact that christianity is the only religion that says you believe as I do or you will go to hell. That is truly humorous. Shall I go on asshole... - 19:11:56 on 9 Oct 97 GMT

Steven:TOFF, please do not resort to name calling 'bloke' 'stevo' It is childish and not necessary. - 19:18:26 on 9 Oct 97 GMT

Simon:Here we go again, us atheists and other non believers saying the same old arguments again and again. No wonder fundamentalist beliefs are catching on big time when we cannot offer an alternative to religious beliefs because we cannot agree amongst ourselves. Any takers on this? - 20:17:21 on 9 Oct 97 GMT

Carl:SIMON: I am ready, to begin i would like to propose that there is no such creature as a theist, very likely mystics, the other word symbolises nil. - 20:50:55 on 9 Oct 97 GMT

Steven:What would make fundamentalist beliefs attractive. Having faith is something that does not exist seems to be a problem. - 20:58:10 on 9 Oct 97 GMT

Joette:-->TOFF..I am with Marlene. It is with sadness that I read that you look to an external sources (long time dead) for you joy and contentment in life. Is it not possible for you to look at yourself and say, "I am a good person, I work hard, I love everyone, I help others, because I want to, not because it is written somewhere that I should?" That is my problem with the faith you put in your jesus. The same peace you find in yourself is the same as the peace non-believers enjoy. It's just that (for example) put my faith in my own abilities and personality. The sterotyping of non-believers as only caring about themselves doesn't wash. You must have met people who would be into themselves, even if they went to church everyday. - 21:17:21 on 9 Oct 97 GMT

Joette:-->SIMON..if everyone was in total agreement on all issues, it would make for rather boring conversation. Having all atheists agree on the same principles is exactly what Carrie Drake was attempting to do a few months back. Did you have the opportunity to view her posts? If someone were to mandate what the alternative to belief in a god is, it would be no different than any other organization, and I for one, balk at the mention of a potential collective mentality. - 21:21:01 on 9 Oct 97 GMT

Joette:-->ROB.....WELCOME BACK!!!!!!!!!! - 21:23:42 on 9 Oct 97 GMT

Carl:OPEN: agreed, JOETTE makes a valid and true reference, the drake party certainly wanted the role of Fuher. - 21:40:38 on 9 Oct 97 GMT

Carl:STEVEN: if have not visited this site, give it a look-over, same for any others - 22:15:05 on 9 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene, maybe I missed something??:SIMON- What do you mean we don't agree? On most points of of atheism we do. Give an example where we don't agree. - 22:32:10 on 9 Oct 97 GMT

JOETTE: Well, it's nice to know someone cares (other than the ubiquitous Jesus). STEVE: without wanting to sound judgemental, were you joking when you suggested Toff was childish for calling you Stevo, just after you referred to him as "asshole" ?! With regards to the "same old atheist arguments", well it is good practice to regularly present and defend your views, and if atheists happen to have similar such views through personal consideration, then great! If, on the other hand they share views through superficial analysis of arguements that support their convictions, then perhaps there is something to worry about. - 22:35:41 on 9 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:HEY ROB!! And NO!, it's not just you. I bet I "can" be just as "nice" as any xtian out there and I don't need jc to believe in to do it. - 22:37:11 on 9 Oct 97 GMT

Rob:Oops, I'd forget own name if it wasn't ... errr - 22:37:56 on 9 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:TO the Poster with No Name- "explain superficial analysis of arguements" - 22:42:50 on 9 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:OKAY SO IT'S YOU ROB- Explain???? - 22:44:13 on 9 Oct 97 GMT

Rob:MARLENE: Howdy! BTW, I am trying to change from physics to psychology and philosophy, so maybe I'll end up being a shrink like your daughter??? Also, if I can change, I get to do philosophy of religion, so my tutors would not be able to tell me off for being on these discussion sites when I have exams (oo I am devious) - 22:46:27 on 9 Oct 97 GMT

Rob:MARLENE: It would appear we are a little out of sync... "Superficial analysis of arguements" refers to failing to scrutinise from an objective viewpoint -in layman's terms putting the cart before the horse by looking for facts to support the theory rather than theories to support the facts. - 22:51:13 on 9 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:STEVEN- While I do agree with you on the xtian history, the problem we have with modern day xtians is that now the brush is cleared and the ground worked there is no need for the axes they used in the past. I can respect your anger. What really needs to happen now is to teach our young people how to evaluate if they need a religion to survive. Prayers should not be part of classrooms, a look at how destructive xtianity has been in history and how it may still be a threat should be taught as part of history and human geography. Scientific method should be used to assess more situations and ethics without religious overtones should also be assessed. - 22:53:54 on 9 Oct 97 GMT

Peter:---TOFF---I cannot account for the actions of Steven or anyone else who happens to be an atheist. This would be similar to one eight year old child questioning some behavior of another eight-year-old because he doesn't believe there is a Santa Claus. Your REAL causes may apply to some, but they certainly did not apply to me--or any other atheist I know. My atheism is a result of the refusal to believe anything on "faith" and recognize the inescapability, and application of reasonable thought. And please don't make this hideous assumption that one is incapable of love without belief in Jesus/God or whatever. It has no basis in fact, and I suspect a result of your own fears being manifested from your own beliefs which include the terrifying prospect of denying outright abelief in a deistic entity. You also mention you feel better due to your "faith"--and I have no reason to question that. However, my objection to supernatural beliefs/religion rests in the fact that "faith" is not a method of cognition, as the theists assume--and the perpetuation of this mind-set as far as man-kinds future is concerned, can only lead--and it has--to disaster. Faith is to believe in spite of evidence, or without evidence. It is a conscious implementation of ultimately evading reality. Although giving temporary comfort to the individual, problems cannot be solved unless mankind faces facts--not evade them, or even attempt to change them in order to be reconcilable to a pre-conceived belief. And all the branches of Christianity, as well as most other religions do this--so in a search for FACTS--these "anti-reality" mentalities not only are counter productive--the ultimately become man's greatest intellectual enemy. An enemy of man's progress, and his ultimate survival. - 22:58:22 on 9 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:ROB- HUH? My daughter is far from being a shrink. Wrong person I think! Okay, I understand, where are we failing to look objectively at religion? But physics was much more promising!!! - 22:59:45 on 9 Oct 97 GMT

Carl:OPEN: back to the SIMON query, of the christian mystics i see them oftener nowadays as merely confused or opting for rose colored glasses, instead of utilising their innate wherewithal. My immediate rush, thereof, was in that of a dialogue, their dialogue, made aright, not just the scenario of the resetting of a slow running clock like these folks always prefer to do. An example of this action i recently referred to b.graham who said the bible talks about telecastin' the gospels. That is a resetting the clock action. But anyway, these folks got to rethink the falsehood of the symbolism from the times of the greek classics. - 23:05:24 on 9 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- I agree with you. The one thing atheists have in common is being an atheist. Anything other than that would likely be coincidental. Although many times we agree on issues because they are issues effected by religion. I'm not sure who suggested that we "change" theists or was it "give them an alternative", this is not my goal. As you pointed out CDrake was into that control issue. Our hope lies with young people who if are taught the proper method of determining for themselves whether something IS or ISN'T will logically come to the conclusion that the supernatural does not exsist. Only then will the world be a better place. Observation is the best teacher. I have no idea on what we disagree on that would cause fundamentalism to grow??? - 23:12:48 on 9 Oct 97 GMT

Adam THE SHIRT OFF'N MY BACK:Marlene: Keep in mind as well that, to the extent that some of us go beyond mere Atheism---that is, the absence of belief in gods---to characterize ourselves as "ememies of religion," which entails an affirmative opposition to the influence of mythology in society. That being the case, although we certainly are not clones of one atheist archetype, many of the beliefs held and comments made by individual atheists regarding religion are apt to be adopted foresquare by most others of our---dare I say it?---ilk. - 0:38:38 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

Joette:--->ROB...that was my daughter, not Marlene's and she hopes to be a "shrink" one day..she gets a lot of practise with me as her mother! - 0:42:10 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

Adam ADDENDA:BMW, have y'all seen my new Blue Jays t-shirt? It's bootiful! - 0:43:13 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

Joette:--ADAM..correct, most of us are ememies (sic) of religion, but I must concur with Marlene that we must educate, educate, educate. Just the term "ememy of religion" reminds one of violence or coup d'etat, which is not something I would want to be associated with, unless it involves a baseball bat and Mike Mussina's head. - 0:46:35 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

Deidra:Deidra- The Christian Hey Everyone! I don't really understand why people choose to be atheist. They think that god doesn't exist and they think that no one is there for them. I dont' know this for a fact or anything, but I've known some people who told me to my face that they were atheist. I just dont' get it. I just don't get it why people say, "If there is such a god; I want to see him." Accept Jesus Christ your Lord and Savior and when you pass away you will see him. He loves you and me and would do anything for his children for he is the Father of the Universe and he is in full controled power. Bye-E! - 0:48:14 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

Joette (telling it right to her face):-->DEIDRA...Hello-E..the operative expression in your post is in your own words "I just dont' get it". - 0:56:23 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

Adam----> DIE LAUGHING:I wish there was an afterlife, oh Deluded Deidra, so that I could see your face when you wake up and find that there is no afterlife. By the way, if Jesus is the father of the universe, then who's the mother? If you cannot answer, I'll assume that you believe that the universe is a bastard. Is this the deluded Christians' corollary of "Life's a Bitch"? I assume that you believe as well in Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny, despite the fact that at some point, someone (although I don't know for a fact) must have told your face that these legendary creatures do not exist. You are an intellectual infant, afraid of the universe on its own terms. Thus, you hide under a fuzzy blanket of warm fantasy. - 2:01:44 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

Adam EMEMY MIME:The Christian Hayride, Everyone! Jo: You have made an ememy of Shirley, in her time of grief over the loss of Diannnnnna, you had the nerve to berate her spelling. Hey, Elvis' middle name is spelled wrong on HIS grave... - 2:13:58 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

PETER:--Deidra--Now I am just following the logic from your post. You say Jesus loves us ( the atheists here). If he does loves us he would not do anything which we would consider harmful ( or else the concept of his"love" here is meaningless.) If he loves us already, then what should an atheist have to fear then? Whether we accept him or not should make no difference to him then--or else what you say about Jesus is self-contradictory, and would be: "Jesus loves you, but you won't see him after you die, because you didn't "accept" him ( whatever that means)you will not reap the benefits I will, because I DID believe IN him." Now, can you not see the absurdity of this? All you are doing is repeating a number of platitudes ( which holy rollers such as you are infamous )you have heard over the years, without any regard to what they actually mean, and how each platitude may conflict logically and comprehensively with the other. And this isn't a baseless acccusation I just made either--YOU JUST CLEARLY DEMONSTRATED THIS FACT. - 3:18:46 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene being a nice atheist tonight:DIEDRA DEAR- I'm telling you to your face, there is no god. Contrary to what you assume, I don't need or want anyone "there for me". I had that in childhood, my mom and dad, I've grown since then. Try to be a big girl and face the facts. There is no supportive evidence of a god or gods or guardian angels or satan or any of those obsure mythical beings. - 4:14:25 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene trying out philosophy (like Rob):ADAM- Corny hasn't told me it's gender yet, maybe it's the mother. How scandalous! Not only that, how can the father bare(bear) the universe. There is absolutely no evidence of a male giving birth! Therefore with that said, if there is a father then the universe can not and does not exsist. - 4:20:32 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene ..Adam you made my night!:"I dunno, so fewer people throw up in the bathroom." - 4:26:41 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

Adam ANTIBLASPHER!:Marlene: Watch what you say about Satan, dudess; we're still an item! - 4:34:18 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

Adam AMMO for MIKE:Marlene is a nihilist, Marlene is a nihilist, nah-nah-nah-nah-nah! - 4:38:10 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

Adam APPLAUSE:Marlene: Thank you for your applause. Your're a wonderful crowd here at the Nihilist Room of the Comedy Church. For anyone who wants to know what she's talking about, click on here to go to yet another inane discussion in the assinine Athens forum. I thought it was a riddle, I swear! - 4:41:26 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene and lookie that Adam is being nice tonight too:ADAM- Hey! That was my first shot at philosophy and ya got me labelled already! Is that "nihilist" with a "N" or a "n". Nice of you to offer Brother Mike some amo but I doubt that he'll be grateful. - 4:54:01 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:ADAM- Stan said he has never had a personal relationship with anyone named Adam but recalls one with a dame named Eve. Says her sissy-assed husband's name was Adam. - 5:01:03 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

Toff:Peter, I NEVER implied that atheists can't love! Indeed; they can be very loving people I am sure. My understanding is that as children of God who have been created in His image, ALL people can love just as God loves. You seem to have this idea that Christians are ignorant misguided uneducated superstitious fools. My faith is not superstition, it comes from accepting the Bible as a historical document. I do not fear truth, I instead rejoice in it. I am not against finding out truth, and I love and value highly education. I am sick of Atheists accusing me of living in fear; I have no fear. I am sick of being accused of running from the truth; I embrace truth. I love science; physics, chemistry, maths... they are all wonderful ways of explaining God's glorious creation and the laws He put in place to make it work. I am sorry that you atheists find theism such a curse on the world; but now I ask you this question: Is it RELIGION or FAITH that has caused many ills in society? As I have already stated, I probably hate RELIGION as much as you all. Religion, in my view, is man's attempt to reach UP to God. This is wrong. God reaches DOWN to us... and through faith in this we can have a good relationship with him. God's infinite love for YOU, ME and ALL HUMANKIND is summed up by what God the Son, Jesus Christ, did for us on the cross. He took on all our sin and suffering so that we might not have to die for it ourselves. Please think about this. JESUS DIED FOR YOU, TOO, not just Christians. I pray that the Holy Spirit of the Most High God will, in His infinite love, grace, and mercy, open your eyes, take the veil off so that you may all see the truth; which is Jesus Christ. Amen. Bless you all... I really do pray that one day you will all find the joy and love that I have found in putting my trust in Jesus Christ. Once again Peter; I appreciate your even-minded approach in your responses. - 5:05:13 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:TOFF- I haven't accused you of living in fear but I know you live in ignorance. Your historical document is full of violent, disgusting myths and is NOT the word of a loving anything. Have you actually read the damn thing? If you have, are you blind to the violence? - 5:13:34 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

Rob:MARLENE: Oops, looks like you have a surrogate daughter - 9:42:55 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

Joette:-->TOFF..there are others of us on this page who have asked questions or made responses to you other than Peter; is there some reason why you refuse to respond to them? - 11:17:24 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

IAN......:From The Bible’s Justice Department (2)....He that is wounded in the stones (testicles), or hath his privy member (penis) cut off, shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD." Deuteronomy 33.1 - 11:31:42 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

Peter:---TOFF--Just to address one point in your last post you said:..."and through faith in this we can have a good relationship with him. God's infinite love for YOU",...Through faith. Now what you say here is putting my last argument into action, and in order to have any further rational discussion on this matter you must understand this: To "have faith" means to believe in abscence of, or despite evidence. In other words, it means to deliberately and consciously defy logic, defy reaosn, and plead for the irrational. So to substitute the meaning of faith in your original statement it would read. " By defying logic, reason ( in other words defying and abandoning the efficacy of your mind ( which happens by the way to be man's basic asset for his very survival)--you can reach God. Now if you could make the claim" Through perfect and sound logic one can reach God"--Then you would haveat least an assertion that would be worthy of serious consideration. But as it is now, and that we must take all of what you say on "faith"; having a relationship with Jesus, being with Him etc. etc., you are proposing something outside the realm of being falsifiable, testable or logical --so your assertion to take something on faith is cognitively empty-it means nothing--it is as if you have said nothing at all. I can demonstrate this quite simply by putting it TO a test. If I say I will pray, have faith accept Christ etc. etc. --and feel no more inspired than before, would you Toff, be prepared to accept the negative finding as sound, inconclusive evidence there is no God, Jesus( who lives only in spirit )? - 12:13:31 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

RON...--->ALL...: I welcome all the new christians to the page. I'm happy to see we are getting a good mix of people from across the globe. Life stills sucks for me. I continue my prayers while holding on to my other Atheist beliefs. Oh, the duality! My balance is SLOWLY coming around. A special thanks goes out to Joette & Peter. - 12:32:24 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

Peter:---RON---You are quite welcome sir, and we all hope things turn out for the better soon. Now as far as your praying is concerned, I wonder if you would be willing to conduct a small experiment. I am proposing this incidentally, in all seriousness as well. Next time you pray, direct your thoughts not to God or Jesus, but to a friend or relative of yours ( deceased or alive--it doesn't matter )who cared for you deeply, and assume they are listening. See what happens, and then let us know the results. I'm serious. - 13:10:36 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

Steven:MARLENE, education is very important to our children. But, our children do not learn the religion in school, at least not where I live. No, religion is taught in churches. These churches are full of people who start wireing their children from birth to adulthood. Then these adults (who never thought to question, because questioning in and of itself is a sin) then have children and then take their children etc.. and so on and so on. These people also are continually attempting to convert or bring in new people to these churches, with only furthers the process. It is a cycle that will not end until their is something/someone that says enough. The problem is, how to do this without violence. How do you stop the greatest brainwashing machine on the planet. Do you honestly believe that it will be with just education? Once a huge bureaucracy such as christianity exists do you really believe that you can tear it down with just education. No, it does not happen that way, and has not happened that way throughout history. Unfortunately I believe it will take something more than education. The ideal way to handle anything is probably of course peacfully. The question is how to you bring down christianity with just education, do you not believe it will take more? - 14:13:30 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:STEVEN- Even though prayers or religion may not be taught in your schools I would imagine that tha majority of the teachers are believers, the majority of the school board, the majority of principal etc. As you pointd out all these people have been and still are brainwashed with religion. I still believe education is the key but education without religious influences and that means the educators keep their beliefs to themselves and teach children rational thought. Another area as you mentioned is in the home. Kids watch a lot of TV. Television shows that ecourage rational thought would also be ideal right down to preschool shows. How about games and toys? Notice all the computer games have some type of mythical theme? Government agencies should not authorize xtian foster homes, xtian psychologists, xtian anything to load their stupid religion on others most especially children. What can we do?? Speak out! Write letters, attend school board meetings, agency meetings, etc. - 14:52:45 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:STEVEN- This is the year 1997. Education is at our children's fingertips. In years past this wasn't the case. Even thirty years ago, my parents and others in our small farming community we boo-ing the idea of evolution. This is no longer the case as even most major religions accept the theory. Religion has lost a little more ground. Each time science discovers something that disproves religious teachings religions lose another piece of footing. It will happen. - 15:02:08 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

Carl:PETER: Once these visiting mystics claim to like education and learning- reading, thinking and writing, but it looks as though, when they begin to construct matters for themselves and find they lack material to complete whatever is in their brains "their imagination" completes the rest. Obviously they must choose to ignore select meanings commonly held by others, just for the sake of the imaginary action taken by their brainwork! Here, may be the source of that "fear" thing that us non-mystics apprehend. I am finding such mysticism- as jc types, with its conservative and absolute composition which serves, for some, their blind static preferences(e.g.,mike) or like the TOFF pseudonym, whose imagination he excuses and renames, a loving and(next he'll say)a "personal" god. Why? It, is the handywork of his brain and it is "his" truth. This takes me to refering to MARLENEs' site of yesterday, about christian narcissism, the TOFF wants us to selfishly love ourselves as he does himself, perhaps? - 15:15:10 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

Steven:MARLENE, is wish for the to occur within my lifetime, or a least my childrens. People are still killng each other over this stuff. You see these freaks on every corner preaching their nonsense. Nothing has changed, regardless of scientific progress. Christianity teaches not to search for answers because knowledge is dagerous. I live in what is deemed the bible belt. Which means seeing christianity on tv 24x7, haveing to hear it on the radio, not being able to smoke a joint because christians think it is evil (and our government backs it up regardless of the scientific data), blue laws, the moral majority, prayers in school, pro-life activist, etc... We have to live with the crap every day. You can't even listen to a music station without some metion of god this god that. Then their is the absolute worst, these people that come to your door, at your house, peddling their misery. Or my favorites, missionaries. These christians send out missionaries to Africa, South America, Asia etc.. to brainwash those people. It has to end somewhere. Any time a scientific discovery comes out who is the first group of people to try to disprove it. It's not like atheist go door to door to try to unwire people, to make them see the truth. Nor do we send out missionaries to people to try to have them use the brain. Ahhh, its so frustrating. - 15:20:10 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

Sgt. Baker:My question to all atheists is: If you don't believe in God, where do you attribute the genesis of any of your moral, ethical thoughts? - 15:22:37 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

Sgt. Baker:Even atheists are putting their faith in something they cannot prove! - 15:24:22 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

Steven:horrible sentence structure and spelling is becoming my trademark. - 15:24:44 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

Sgt. Baker:Any belief system that deals with a higher power, or lack thereof, and also deals with the origins of the universe and man relies on some sort of faith! - 15:27:12 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

Steven:SGT BAKER, mankind had morals and ethics long before belief in a god. Greeks, Egyptian, Chinese, etc.. had morals and ethics without believing in a modern god. These civilizations are far older than you judeo-christian. What makes you think that all of a sudden when catholics are were out murdering so called pagans, that human kind suddenly developed morals. Please give us a break, do a little history research. - 15:28:19 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

Sgt. Baker:Going back to my first question, I asked that in reference to something I read that said atheists love their fellow man and so on. Why bother? - 15:30:52 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

Sgt. Baker:This has nothing to do with history; where do YOU attribute your moral beliefs? - 15:32:35 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

Sgt. Baker:Stephen; Besides, those ancient peoples certainly did believe in various gods, don't tell me to do my history, I've already done plenty! - 15:34:47 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

Steven:SGTBAKER, definition of moral: Of or pertaining to the principles of right and wrong. It is not necessary for me to believe in a fairy tail to deem what is right and/or wrong. Is a security blanket necessary for you SGT. - 15:37:17 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

Carl:STEVEN: What you describe sure sounds dismal, but on the other hand interesting. When you venture among these people, what are they like? Are they nice? Are they superficial? What do their eyes say? Are they vacuous or faraway-like? Those types here are simply dumb to things. They are like the pink floyd song "Comfortably Numb" one can't get them to backup their claims of a diety or its offspring. Another general thing of christians here is confusion, as in without anticipation. So they like the TOFF start to think some things are up and others down, what imagination! Is that up down thing, a kind or sort of denial of some psycho-thing or other? - 15:37:31 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:STEVEN- I know, I live in a damn bible belt too, complete with the missionary thing. It is frustrating. But the fact that we are atheists and are outspoken is hopeful. Years ago this didn't happen often. Every time you show these xtains that you are not a believer, do you not think that they secretly envy that courage that they can't seem to muster. I liked your response to Baker. - 15:38:09 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

Steven:that should be tale. ai corumba - 15:38:12 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

Sgt. Baker:STEPHEN, I'm just curious what your beliefs about the origin of man are, if you don't mind me asking. - 15:38:48 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

Sgt. Baker:STEPHEN, you still won't answer my question. Tell me about something you feel is wrong, and why you feel that way. - 15:41:45 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

Carl:SGT.BAKER: On my behalf I will give you no grounds for any excuse or deferment, I am responsible for what i do that is right or wrong, just as you do. If you are man-enough, that is all you need as that is all i have ever needed. - 15:43:10 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

Steven:CARl, the look in their eyes is one of a fanatic. They simply will not take no as an answer. So, I (this may be a problem of mine) take it upon myself to do a little reverse education. This does not affect them at all. It just makes them angry, which in turn makes me agry, it's a vicious cycle. - 15:43:47 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:BAKER(sgt)- You haven't done enough! Back to the books! Many cultures have put in place ethics without any type of belief in the supernatural. It's a sad thing when someone feels that a mythical creature need to spell out what it right or wrong. When it comes to morals, xtian morals are very different from mine although a few are basic ones that anyone would subscribe to. - 15:44:05 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

Sgt. Baker:STEPHEN, you probably think humans just materialized, like on Star Trek? We had to have come from somewhere. - 15:44:12 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

Steven:SGT. BAKER, are you attempting to psychoanalyze the psychologist. - 15:44:56 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:STEVEN- Wonder why they are angry??? You're a threat to their crap. Smile at them and keep on educating! They'll likely walk away but they will (even if they don't admit it) think. It's a normal reaction to stimuli. - 15:48:12 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

Steven:SGT BAKER, yes we came from somewhere. But, I do not attempt to tell someone that I know from wence we come. I also do not commit the error of creating a being to explain what I do not know. I use my mind, you do have one of these I assume. Yes I do know the definition of assume. - 15:48:35 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene...they always resort to stupid assumptions!:BAKER- Aren't you the brainy one! Star Trek..sheesh! - 15:50:47 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

Sgt. Baker:I don't know what Christians are like where you guys come from, they sound scary even to me, but I feel that I have a more personal relationship with God, outside the bounds of your typical religions, who I feel restrict sprirituality in many ways. All I know is, when I look up in the sky at night, or when I really think about the world, I know in my heart that the earth and man were no accident, or freak of nature. Something greater than what we can imagine created us, and if that was me, I would wnat a little recognition and praise, and that is exactly what I am doing. I did not make myself. If you should thank anybody for your existence, thank your parents! - 15:51:31 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

- 15:51:59 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene..come to think of it..:Although Star Trek did have a real good show comparing xtians to the collective Borg. - 15:53:38 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

Sgt. Baker:MARLENE, if you're going to be a smartass, where do you think we came from? - 15:54:02 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

Steven:SGT B. How per say do you have a relationship with a nonentity. If you have this great relationship mabey you could introduce me. I would like to say hey, and ask him why he murders so many people every day. I have many questions I would like god to atone for. - 15:54:18 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

STEVEN:YOU WILL BE ASIMALATED. RESISTENCE IS FUTILE - 15:55:25 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

Sgt. Baker:I use my mind at all times, thank you. I am not a missionary, or a bible peddlar, or a fanatic, I practice all things in moderation. - 15:57:04 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:BARKER- Yep! my parents are the ones to thank not some silly mythical creature. What evidence do you you see in the night sky or the world at large that suggests a creator? - 15:57:08 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

Sgt. Baker:ditto. - 15:58:00 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

Peter:SGt. Baker--Why don't you tell us exactly "where we came from" and "how we got here"? - 15:58:04 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

Sgt. Baker:I don't know, marlene, maybe I'm just using my mind on that one! What eveidence do you see for the lack of one?!? - 15:59:35 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

Steven:SGT B, are you seriously asking her to prove a negative. - 16:00:43 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

Baphomet:Anybody wants to talk about creation/evolution? - 16:00:50 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:BAKER- I, at this point, think evolution is the theory with the most supportive evidence. It's you that are making a very fantastic claim of a creator here. When such claims as this are made, I'm sure you must have some type of evidence that have cause you to come to this fantatic conclusion????? - 16:01:29 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:That was actually supposed to be "fantastic conclusion" but "fanatic " is also appropriate. - 16:02:42 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

Sgt. Baker:PETER, okay, I will try. God, who has always existed and will always exist as far as our limited knowledge of time will let us understand, created the heavens and the earth/universe. He made a man in his image, and a woman from they man, they were ordered to multiply, a miracle in itself, and the rest, my friends, IS HISTORY! - 16:03:01 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:BAKER- I'm not the one making the fantastic claim, you are. The onus is on you for this one. - 16:04:51 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

Sgt. Baker:Yes, STEPHEN, negatives must be proved as readily as positives, I took science and logic! - 16:05:01 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

Carl:ANY: the most most recent mystic- night skys, spirits, etc., I suggest is a dang good example why we non-mystics ought to stop calling these confused folks theists. With that word they just continue imagining that that kinda'brainwork, really can be spoken about. These folks are simply overwhelmed, they just get comfortably numb instead of curing their dizziness. Rigorous thinking is a good starting point, there sarge. - 16:05:04 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

Steven:oh no, we have a bonified christian freak on our hands. - 16:05:57 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

Peter:---Sgt Baker--and let me speak rather franlkly here if I may. Judging by the contents of the questions you are asking, I can quickly make a fairly accurate assessment of your intelligence/educational level. I can assure you, with total confidence, that the questions you are asking right now are on the same level as an eight year old child asking agroup of adults something like " Well if there isn't a Santa Claus--why am I always getting Christmas presents every year?" In other words, you are going to be made to look very stupid here--very quickly. - 16:07:18 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

Steven:As I have said, if you and god are so close SGTB ask him to come off his cloud/ass and let me speak with him. As ADAM has said, he must be afraid I'll kick his ass. - 16:08:27 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

Sgt. baker:I think it is a fantastic claim to say that humans are currently and have always evolved. Humans nowadays are doing the opposite of evolving. One of the scientific laws says that matter moves towards chaos and not vice versa. Nature does not evolve, it goes from high order to low order! - 16:08:46 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene self professed mystics:CARL- You crack me up, sarge! You may be right, mystics may be a more appropiate word as many of these posters do not want to follow any major organized religion but choose to make up their own using the judeo-xtian-islamic god. - 16:11:07 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

Steven:SGT B, it seems that you are evading questions, why? - 16:11:57 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

PETER, your "fairly accurate" assessmant of my intelligence/educational level could not be more off! - 16:11:58 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:BAKER- Which physical law is that? It's my understanding that the universe continues to expand. - 16:13:52 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

Steven:SGT B, I think that Peter is saying that an intelligent human being that knows anything about deductive reasoning will conclude that a god could not possible exist. - 16:14:30 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:BAKER- Bet your a Tipler educatee??? - 16:15:00 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

Sgt. Baker:I'm sorry folks but I honestly have to go to a class; well, actually it's a voice lesson, at 12:20. I certainly did enjoy this little session, and despite your seemingly preconceived notions, you do not frighten me, I am simply curious, which I would think you would embrace. I hope to see you here in the future! - 16:15:34 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

Steven:ANSWER THE QUESTION. I WISH TO HAVE A DIALOGUE WITH YOUR GOD, DOES HE HAVE A #, OR CAN YOU REACH TO LET HIM KNOW THAT I WISH TO HAVE A CONVERSATION WITH HIM. - 16:16:06 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

Peter:---Sgt.Baker---Like I have said just a moment ago--your assumption that you are a learned, thinking human being is in total jeopardy if you continue reciting these undigested platitudes which I can assure you we have all heard probably more than you have. But, if you wish to look like a complete fool--just continue with these same arguments. - 16:16:49 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

Toff:Hello, friends. Toff here. I believe I missed the responses to my last post but someone said I can still read them... anyone know how? - 16:16:52 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

Carl:PETER: It is a safe bet the visitor, the one flashing authority, flips through his school written in and for the '50s mindset. This person seems to take the same thinking level of AMIE. here I refer to his words of high low orders, that is a vista of Hegelian evolutionism. So who wants to bring this individual outta the dark ages? - 16:18:04 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

Toff:Steven, you hate God with everything you have. Do you REALLY think that God will talk to such a rude, spiteful, hateful, arrogant person? Who are YOU to be able to demand to talk to the SOVEREGN LORD when you deny all He has done for you, most importantly dying on the cross for you. - 16:18:35 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:BAKER- The sum of education and intelligence is not always what some would expect it to be. While we can't all be educated well in all things and we aren't all of the genius type, we are capable of reasoning. How are you reasoning this claim of yours, that's what we ask. - 16:19:32 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

Sgt. Baker:MARLENE, well, since you asked, the law I spoke of is the Law of Entropy, which again states that free agents in nature move from states of high order to low order unless acted upon by an outside force. Buildings deteriorate, molecules move from complex to simple, etc. Look it up, hit the books!!! - 16:19:47 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

Sgt. Baker:Stephen, You can talk to Him as easily as I do, directly. You don't need a moderator! - 16:23:20 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:TOFF- Who fails to talk to females. In the address at the top of the page, after "cgi", type in "?show=50" then press enter. If it doesn't go back far enough make the 50 into a larger number (I suggest 60). Just increase the number to go futher back. - 16:23:25 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

Toff:Fails to talk to females, what? Did you ask a question of me? I never received one. Sorry. - 16:24:57 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:BAKER- Shall do but I just bet the law has nothing to do with a creator! - 16:25:51 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

--TOFF--To scroll back messages, go to the URL at the top of the page where it sdays--"cgi?show=30&user=" and change the "30" to whatever number of posts you would like to go back. - 16:26:12 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:BAKER- If you fail to do what most believers do and make like the birds, I'll be posting back on this law and how it can possibly linked to your creator. Of course I'll have to visit my favorite physics prof's page to see what his comments are as I am not a physics buff. - 16:30:02 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene on xtian manners:HEY TOFF- Don't say thanks, eh! - 16:31:32 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

Peter:...I just love how these creationists ALWAYS--WITHOUT FAIL when reciting the Second Law of Thermodynamics ( Law of Entropy )--conveniently omit the phrase " in a closed system" And of course they do because if they included it, their futile and childish attempt at some Pee-Wee Herman style of "scientific judo" would be dead in the water. ....snore.... - 16:31:51 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

Toff:To STEVEN. I am sorry if you are offended by my calling you "BLOKE, STEVO" but as an Australian, I find this type of address entirely acceptable and appropriate. Please understand the cultural difference. To Joette: I am sorry that I didn't answer your posts as I didn't know I could go back to see them and I never got to. Regarding CHURCHY people I care not for them, just as I care not for religion. I do care for, however, a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. No-one anwered my post about y'all living out your faith in hopelessness. - 16:35:09 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

Steven:TOFF, how could I hate something that does not exist. What I hate is the belief system is something that does not exist. I would challenge the lord, if he existed, to blow me. How dare I challenge the existence of Santa. I am so worried I nearly pissed in my armor, look at the bones. Why its just a rabbit. Pull out the holy handgrenade. Seriously, a god does not exist, I dislike the people that peddle the bible and all its man made doctrines. - 16:35:26 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

Toff:Sorry, yes thanks Marlene I have just completed going back over 120 posts to work things out. - 16:35:53 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

Toff:Steven, you are just like SAUL of TARSUS in the Book of Acts. He hated Christians, just like you. He beat them up and dragged them off to prison. He watched over the Pharisees coats while they stoned STEPHEN, the first martyr. One day, though, Saul was on a road to Damascus when the Lord appeared to him and said "Saul, Saul, why do you persectue ME?". Saul, after other experiences, converted to the Lord and became one of the most zealous Christians ever, and had his name changed to PAUL. He is responsible for half of the letters of the new testament and is probably the best know apostle. My prayer is that God, in His infinite Love and grace will, despite your hatred of Him, reveal himself to you so that you will know of His love as Saul and I do. - 16:41:13 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene answering TOFF's question:TOFF- Your Welcome! Now as to my living without hope....I have all kinds of hope. As to a "life after death" , you believers can hope all you want be there is absolutely no evidence that supports this claim. Faith is a word I don't use. I do not have a blind trust in anything. - 16:42:02 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:PETER- I was looking for something on the net to link to the Law of Entropy. Once we spell it out then we'll wait for the SARGE to expand on what he means. If you find a site, link it okay? - 16:44:42 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

Toff:Marlene, one day you will die. All your life will become worthless, according to your athiesm. What hope do you have? You will cease to exist. One day EVERYONE will cease to exist. Your atheistic religion is cold and hopeless. My faith in Jesus, however, gives me the hope of eternal life in His presence worshipping Him and having complete joy. I pray for all of you that the Holy Spirit will take away the veil that Satan has put on your eyes. Amen. God bless you all. - 16:47:07 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:TOFF- Saul/Paul is no different than Charlie/Christ. Both saw mindless sheep and decided to create a following. The Roman Empire would have been idiots not to create a religion without a Roman citizen as the "key man". Same shit as America and the Mormon crap. - 16:50:07 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

Why does everyone fail to answer question about living in no hope of eternal life? - 16:53:36 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:TOFF- I agree that the human species will eventually die off. Whether it will be a natural occurance or one caused by man's lack of respect for this planet, I don't know. I have no desire for a "eternal life" and I really question those that do desire one. Isn't that very, very selfish? Another angle to look at with "eternal life", wouldn't it be very, very boring? I do believe though, that what I leave for future generations will hopefully benefit those after my death. - 16:55:35 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

Carl:TOFF: do you have a valid and true account for what makes your words of your, for now, imaginary diety that is common to just you and me? I say now- superstition mysticism things in me magic miracles dead-folks the invisible smoke- to name but some things won't count. Furthermore, this common thing isn't like a snicker bar, but it will be the diety outside us both. What say you? - 16:56:34 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene, if you read the Bible you hate so much you will find that Paul had no intention in making a following out of "mindless sheep". He concentrated everything on Christ, not himself. He was very humble. For goodness sake... he spent most of his time being beaten up by mobs and in Roman prisons... why would ANYONE gives up a cushy Jewish job for this life??? Luke-Acts is a HISTORICAL document written by a DOCTOR so don't tell me it's just a nice fairty story used to warp mens minds. - 16:57:23 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

I am sorry, Carl, but not being a German student, I didn't get the gist of your post at all. - 16:58:20 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene..sheesh!:TOFF- I have answered your question. I LIVE IN NO HOPE FOR ETERNAL LIFE, and I'm comfortable with that! There IS NO eternal life! I HAVE HOPE for future generations. What ELSE do you want to HEAR! - 16:59:41 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene... SELFISH??? What? Humans, according to atheists and Christians alike, are programmed for self preservation etc etc. To say that longing for eternal life is selfish is like saying that it is selfish to continue breathing, eating, exercising and doing all the things we do to keep us alive. - 17:01:01 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

You have kept me up too long with your endless debating! I only wanted to check email and now it's 2:30 am! Goodnight and may Yahweh soften your hearts to receive the good news of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Yours in Christian love, TOFF (Matt Harris). - 17:02:50 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:TOFF- Contrary to your interpretation I have read your bible very throughly. Xtianity is a death cult, they/you love martyr's. Martyr's play on emotions not intellect. Most xtians will admit that their beliefs are confirmed by their emotions. - 17:03:51 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

Did you read II Corinthians??? It says that unbelievers have a veil on there eyes, and so even when they read the word, they do not receive it. Only the Holy Spirit can open your eyes to see the truth that lies below the surface of the words of Scripture. - 17:05:41 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene..sheesh!:TOFF- You refer to the natural and common sense when it comes to life then do a 360 when reality hits at death! GOODNIGHT! - 17:08:04 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:TOFF- Yes, and I read in Cinderella where her footmen turned into mice too. - 17:10:10 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

Peter:--Written by DOCTOR? Well so what? Even up to the late 1800's, anyone could call himslf a doctor and hang up his shingle for commerce! The standards that exist today just didn't exist--even this recently. If you think all the historical evidence is sound in proving the ressurection of Jesus. Take it to a place where it will count. Submit a paper to the American Academy of Science--or any such body--and let them assess this claim that someone arose from the dead. ( And I can assure you it won't make it past the receptionist's desk.) Your arguments here are reminiscent of those who attempt to verify UFO, Bigfoot, Loch Ness monster sightings. By the way, who are YOU? - 17:12:44 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:PETER- Hope he's not a doctor! Euthanasia is finally legal in his country. I can just imagine the "hope" talks he'd give patients who ask for relief from their pain. - 17:15:10 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

Peter:---Marlene--Check your E-mail.( It applies unfortunately all too well with Toff ) - 17:15:27 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

Carl:The Non-German: The plan was that the TOFF would not have to address the forum here, but in his terms that i could see at where i inscribe- this means it is common to us, that then he could point out his diety. And, if it is as he imagines it would not have any of the attributes i mentioned, smoke invisible, etc. - 17:16:07 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

Peter:--TOFF-- You have most unfortunately forfeited your status with that " II Corinthians" quote to be given any further serious consideration. Speaking of an atheist having hope--I did have , at some juncture--have hope for you. Are you at all familiar with the concept of circular reasoning, incidentally? - 17:23:07 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

Steven:Saul/Paul was a murder according to very own bible. How about reading the thirtenth chapter of your bible and learn how Paul blinded a man because he believed differently than he did. Does this sound like a mna of good. Or lets read Old Testament accounts of your god slaughtering men, woman, animals, infants etc... If you believe in this god of christianity you believe in a murderous and jealous god, or shall i dig up more quotes. As a matter of fact I could produce quit quickly accounts from your bible of your god murdering easily a milllion people. Usually because they were enemies of god's people. Does this sound like a loving god to you. Is your god such an idiot that he allows people that he created in suck perfection, to murder in his name every day. No, I don't believe in evil per say, because the idea of a satan is ludicrous. But I do believe that if evil exists it lies in religions. Especially christianity, which is , I believe the largest cause of human suffering the planet has yet to endure. It needs to be eradicated because it can no longer be suffered. - 17:39:07 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:PETER- Yes, I think poor Toff is hopeless! - 17:40:33 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

Carl:ANY: Deists one and all, since TOFF can't, I choose- exercise heresy, an open mind. I'm not lost, have no fear, have no earthly wants, refuse to be ignorant nor yield to it in a gullible or credulous form, nor do I seek an unknowable beginning nor the end of the emptiness of space this means of mysticism i've none, so tell any where is, your diety? You deists any and all, if your contrary is wrong then where is that thing that is right? Not man-made books bearing copyright numbers- written by who knows who, as inscribed "I choose an open mind", by the way 'mind= brain + emotion'. That heart stuff is dark ages symbolism, and its' simply too archaic, the sybylline witches of the christian bible liked that "heart stuff". Well deists, don't all speak-up at once. - 18:24:13 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

Joette:--->MATT (I prefer to use real names, because we are real people)..the denizens of the page have misunderstood your reference to the doctor, and I am assuming that you are speaking of Luke. I have done much reading on that particular disciple, and you must admit that the doctoring he was doing back then was far different than what is done nowadays. Any doctor can write something, but remember, he was a medical practioner, not a philospher, not an expert on any particular subject, but rather a very early Mother T. Now, to address your question about living without hope, I shall try to be forthright and candid. At one time, I shared with my mentor, Woody Allen, a terrible fear of death, even getting chills and an overwhelming sense of hopelessness when I thought about it. It took years and years of study, speaking with others not afraid of death, long conversations with people close to me who were dying, and a host of other venues of exploration before I cast aside this fear of my own mortality. I finally began to realize that it is purely a natural process, not aided by a god but rather by such other influences such as health, wealth and luck. To that end, I (and most others who do not follow in the path on a non-existent entity) try to make the best choices to live a long and prosperous life, so that when it is time to lay me down for the final time, I can look back and say, "Well, it's been fun!". I have hope that people will begin to care more about each other, I have hope that discrimination and prejudice will become a thing of the past in my own daughter's life time, I have hope that life will continue happily for others, and I have hope that one of these days my lottery numbers will pay off. I would rather have a happy life now, than wreck this life on the chance that there will be a next life. Remember, heaven is a place where nothing ever happens. - 21:58:41 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

Joette:-->ADAM ACE...if you haven't been on Athens today, you'd better brush off your volumes of thermodynamics because you have been challenged....go get 'em! - 23:07:24 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:ADAM ACE- I agree with Joette. The god-squad on thermodynamics is on the loose today! - 23:31:50 on 10 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene ...the GOLDEN GULLIBLE AWARD goes to..:Just listening to TV while reading up on the entropy thing. Fox has a show on about animal attacks. Although we hear how gullible of the xtians are, how about giving this guy the trophy. Seems a guy named, Daniel decided to climb into the lion pen at a zoo with his bible in hand. - 1:57:37 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Adam STAN the MAN:Can't Stan the Heat, Marledene? I never had an affair with Stan. - 2:29:20 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Adam---Don't Do Me Any Favors:---> Toffee: You say Jesus died for me. That reminds me of the homeless guy who holds the door open for people at my ATM. Don't want no help, don't need no help. God is a fiction that you have conjured up in your own mind based on a book written by men that comprises largely legend. Too bad Jesus died for me; I'd rather he were alive, so I can kick his holy-chicken ass! - 2:34:46 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Adam MAJOR REVELATION, SARGE!:Sgt. Baker---> Bingo in your post of 15:51! [I apologize to page denizens who have heard all this before, and for being so far behind in my postings; I hope, however, that it ultimately will bring tears to your eyes by its intellectual sincerity and crystalization of many of your thoughts] You cannot imagine in simplistic human terms the forces that shaped the universe. Thus, rather than joining the continuing human quest to understand the workings of the universe, you project outward upon the universe an intellectually childish template, to wit: the universe MUST have been created by a power like me, but possessing far greater powers, yet at the same time subject to the same human frailties and emotions as you (e.g. expecting praise---a very insecure human thing indeed, and of which I know well, especially when my jokes don't go over so well. This is the classic myopic projection of the theist: Rather than recognize that the vastness and complexity of the universe is of a scale so extraordinarily beyond human life experience that it renders humankind a virtually meaningless speck against this grand backdrop (and this, my friend is the truth---just the plain old truth to me, but, I presume, a terribly troubling and even frightening prospect to you) that you force an explanation of the universe that enables you to place it, and justify your own existence, in human-scaled terms. I use the term "intellectually childish" not merely to level invective toward you, but rather because it is well understood that up until a certain age (to be more accurate, a certain level of intellectual and social development), young children perceive the universe only in terms of themselves---that is, on a scale they can understand at that point. Eventually, they reach a point at which they acknowledge that they are individuals among families of other individuals, and then among societies of individuals, and eventually, they learn that they are part of the dominant species on the globe. Please understand that I, and I dare say many of the denizens of this page, see your reasoning as analogous to that of the infant---not to deride you, but in accurately depicting the undeveloped and severely limited expanse of your perspective. It is not troubling to me to accept the insignificance of humankind in the universe or, for that matter, the knowledge that ultimately we will be succeeded by a series of superior or more adaptable species (either by slow evolution of our branch or catastrophic truncation of it). I see things for what they are, accept as undiscovered that for which I have no explanation yet, and interpose no fantasies that my mind may conjure up, such as a human-like father figure of a god, to make me feel better about my lack of cosmic purpose or impending death with no afterlife. I have no doubt---and correct me if I'm wrong---that you find my observations harrowing and presume that my life is without joy or hope. I assure you, though, that I enjoy very much the human-level pleasures, not the least of which is conveying my well-thought-out beliefs cogently and articulately to those whom I believe are incumbered by mythology, on sites such as these. I will not make the misstep, however, of projecting my human life experience out into an overwhelmingly inanimate and random cosmos which, I hate to tell you, doesn't give a damn about you, me, this conversation, the Internet, CORNY, your god or the fact that you pray. - 3:18:32 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Adam---Addenda:Sarge: In case you don't know how to change the URL line to see older posts on this page (many newcomers do not), the projectionist statement of yours I see as the symptom of flawed reasoning is "Something greater than what we can imagine created us, and if that was me, I would wnat a little recognition and praise, and that is exactly what I am doing." Every once in awhile I have to remind my fellow freethinkers that I'm not just a humor harlot or guardian of grammar. I have a brain too, dammit! - 3:25:50 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Adam---> Am I the only one who holds that only the old Trek is the true Trek?:Steven, you are not of the body! The borg is just a ripoff (and elaboration) of the Landrew episode from the f&^%ing 60s. There is peace in Landrew. - 3:28:57 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Adam IT JUST DON'T ADD UP:Sargent Baker of the Long Division: You know, my first-grade teacher ordered ME to multiply, and THAT got a whole thing going: ultimately, I'm one of only a handful of individuals who never missed a question on the three consecutive New York State Regents' Exams in math: Algebra, Geometry & Trig. It is a wonderous thing, I attest to that, but it hardly makes that first-grade teacher a god (a saint, I'll grantcha, but a god? She vas nevah a god!). Lest the denizens think I was gettin' all high-fallutin' inte-leckswall and sheet! - 3:36:02 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Adam POINT OF ORDER, or LACK THEREOF:Marlene is NOT a molecule; she is a HUMAN BEING! The law of entropy has NOTHING to do with living organic organisms---discussing evolution and a law of physical matter is mixing atoms & orangutans. - 3:43:15 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Adam SATAN & MASOCHISM:Toff as Nails: You know, Satan DOES play with veils, and I have EVEN seen whips and leather as well. That's why I'm so glad I dumped god (see, "My Relationship With God"---now an M&M claasic post---some 250? posts back) for Satan. God always did it in the missionary position. BORE-RING!!! - 3:49:48 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes:Hi everybody! My name is Farnes and I think you all are lots of laughs! So enjoy! Enjoy! I love the thermodynamics/entropy stuff. Love it, baby! and the "circular reasoning" thing? Is that attacking the "'cause the Bible tells me so" mindset? I just don't understand where all the anger comes from in here. After all, isn't this simply for entertainment purposes? But then again, I guess becoming emotionally involved kind 'a enhances the entertainment experience, huh? - 3:50:19 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Adam NOBODY'S PERFECT:Steven: "Created in Suck Perfection?" Sounds more like Harry Mudd than god, but if you MUST subscribe to a religion, well..... - 3:57:12 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

ADAM Se What?:Steven: It's PER SE. Sorry to gofer typos, but a legalese Latinism really hits home. I'm sorry if that makes me a NULLIUS FILIUS! - 4:00:15 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Adam, I agree that the first Trek is the only Trek of any value. Regarding your response to the entropy question: aren't orangutans but a mass of atoms, subject to all physical laws? - 4:01:58 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes:Adam, that posting to you from noname was actually from me. . .! - 4:04:32 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Adam BE CAREFUL WHAT YOU WISH FOR:Jo-ette Pie in the Sky With Diamonds: Your 21:58 post closes with some f&*%ing wish list. Why don't you throw in another winning season for the Jays while you're trawling for miracles? - 4:07:46 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes:Adam, your arrogance is unbecoming. Perhaps your priorities are askew? - 4:08:14 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes:Adam, what is the formula to determine the length of a coil of rope? - 4:11:29 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes:Adam, have you ever had a synchronistic experience? - 4:13:17 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes:Adam, where are you brother? Typing in another philosophical novella? - 4:14:09 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Adam UP AND ATOM!:Farnes: Welcome! Can't speak for other page denizens, but this is nothing but fun, be it incredibly consistent wit or the joy of intellectual debate. It's like a CB radio with culture. It makes me want to test out my in-development "Upper Class Snob Comic" routine. You know: "Thank you SO much, ladies & gents. I just flew in from the Riviera, and BOY, is my Lear Jet low on fuel!" A-har-har, muffin! "Say, Chipper, why did the chicken cross the road?" "Golly, Everest, I haven't the FOGGIEST! Why did the little rascal cross the road?" "Why, Chipper, he had borrowed daddy's Porsche...he can drive however the hell he WANTS!" A-har-har! Everest, you are QUITE the card! I don't know if you were here Farnsy, for the post some 60 or so back to which I was responding, but a theist was attempting to call evolution into question by suggesting it was contrary to the Law of Entropy. I just wanted to point out the intellectual dissaray in evidence in such an assertion. - 4:23:45 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Adam FARNES & FURIOUS:Hey, if you're going to rapid-fire posts like that, expect me not to see each one, as I don't refresh the screen all that quickly even when I'm hanging on the page. As for arrogance, I'm not sure I'm clear on which post led you to that conclusion (you might be missing some inside baseball if it was a sarcastic post directed to a friend like Jo-bet-loser) and, at any rate, I think it's VERY becoming---becoming a habit, that is! The M&M's, especially Peter, would have it no other whey. As for these questions, do you want me to answer them and, if so, to what end? How are these relevant? You know the fabric of which your shirt is made is immaterial to this discussion. - 4:31:17 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Adam EMOTIN' & SMOTIN':Farnwood Tonight: By the way, if you go back about 1250 posts, you would discover that I.....AM......KEE-ROCK!!!!!!! - 4:33:08 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes:Adam, if one considers the life force to be a form of energy, how is it that evolution impacts this energy in a way that pushes it toward greater and greater refinement and organization? Is this in accordance with the 2nd law of thermodynamics? Or contrary to it? - 4:34:53 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes:Adam, the "coil of rope" question was simply an opportunity for you to display your mathematics prowess, and maybe some creativity. The arrogance statement was honest observation. The "synchronicity" question is very relevant. The "novella" comment was another jem of honesty as i was deciding whether or not to invest effort reqired to read your sometimes lengthy postings. - 4:41:20 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Adam----> Farnes on Fizzics:Three things, and then I gotta go (I'm in my office when I'm on, and I'd like to go home for the long weekend---BMW: Happy Thanksgiving, you f&^*%ng CANUCKS!). First, evolution does not occur on the atomic or molecular level. Second, you have to define the parameters of your "closed system" for the 2d law to have any relevance fatso-ever. Third, where did you come up with---and by NO means am I the "one" in "one considers"----the notion that the "life force", whatever the hell THAT is, is a form of energy. Well, it's life, Jim, but not as we know it... - 4:43:08 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes____Adam's Colon needs a break:Adam, i never made any claims regarding the "level" upon which "evolution occurs." I do not, frank you very much! Thoid, are you going to deny the existence of the so-called "lifeforce" simply because hasn't been able to measure it? Wow! relax man, you'll wake up in your bed! - 4:49:41 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes: forgive typos, prease - 4:50:57 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Adam Oohfah!:The mathematics post was a humorous response to an old post (back 90?) by the Sarge affirming his belief in the Genesis creation, which included the line "God ordered man to multiply." That's it. OK? By the way, if god's ordering, I'll have a tuna on wheat and a pickle. The regents stuff is true, but offered only as part of the setup to the joke. It occurred in the 1970s, and I have since gravitated toward the social sciences and am a newspaper editor, inter alia (for Steven), and not a numbers guy. I have no interest in the length of a coil of rope (but see, supra, the Satanic S&M post of late). I do not know what this synchonisity stuff is (a Police album, as I recollect), and I have made only one lengthy post recently, and that in response to an earlier conversation spanning perhaps 75 posts, with the Sargeant-at-Alms and others. If you have something straightforward to ask me or tell me, then by all means fire (that's figurative, Sarge!), but I really have to get going, because the subway is very infrequent @ this hour. - 4:53:15 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Adam Life + Force = Football:Forced Errors: I have NO IDEA what this life force of which you refer, is. If you have any other posts up, I will address them in my next lengthy ketchup series, most likely on Tuesday. - 4:57:43 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Rob:Farnes: Bienvenue to the Chateau of Shameless Heathens- what's all this about lengths of rope? You're not planning on hanging any christians are you? [2*pi*r*(h/d) by the way, if I am guessing upon the shape of coil]. As for good old law number two -what Adam was probably too engrosed in his antics too explain was that decreasing entropy is a net effect. As I said ages ago, look inside your fridge and you will see what I mean (assuming you've got one and it's plugged in). You can increase order if you stick a bit of energy in, but overall the entropy decreases. As for evolution then, the universe is developing some highly ordered bits at the expense of god's electric bill. Last one to go please turn out the light. - 10:39:20 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

IAN.>.>.>.:From The Bible’s Justice Department (2)....He that is wounded in the stones (testicles), or hath his privy member (penis) cut off, shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD." Deuteronomy 33.1 - 12:01:24 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Joette:-->IAN..that would be in keeping with the Promise Keepers wouldn't it? "REAL" men need only apply! - 12:30:15 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

IAN>.>.>.Joette....:Exactly....From The Bible’s Justice Department (2)...."...the hand of the LORD was against the city with a very great distruction: and he smote the men of the city, both small and great, and they had emeroids (hemorrhoids) in their secret parts." - 1 Samuel 5:9 - 12:38:36 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Rob:Ian: Which just goes to show -the christian god really is a pain in the arse. BTW, anyone interested -I have written a couple of essays at Treebeard's Place (click the link) in the atheist section. Your collective criticisms will no doubt prove demoralisingly enlightening. - 12:54:00 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

IAN-ROB, thanks....:From The Bible’s Justice Department (2)...."...the hand of the LORD was against the city with a very great distruction: and he smote the men of the city, both small and great, and they had emeroids (hemorrhoids) in their secret parts." - 1 Samuel 5:9 - 13:11:08 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

IAN ON A ROLL....:From The Bible’s Justice Department (9)....However, the lord was appeased after the men had madew golden images of their emerods to give him. See 1 Samuel 6:4-5. - 13:12:18 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:ROB- The IPU will NOT find humor in your atheist page! Otherwise GREAT PAGE! - 13:28:17 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:TO THE GOD-SQUAD (Baker sgt and Farnes pvt)- SO...now I've done my homework on the second law of thermodynamics and read what Hawking(A Brief History In Time), had to say and also what some xtian(on the net) had to say, I'm ready for this fantasic claim of yours. You referred to the second law having to do with your creator but didn't expand on it. SO..let hear your claim??? - 13:34:26 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

IAN>.>.>.>.: Christian humility is preached by the clergy, but practiced only by the lower classes. - 13:38:43 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- I wonder?? Bet those pk's do have to have a shake down when enrolling just to make sure Ellen doesn't try and enlist. BTW Grant sent me a e-mail showing me a site where the pk's are not "defunct" in Seattle. Maybe it would make a good movie "Defunct in Seattle". - 13:40:08 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- That should have read "now" and knot "not"(didn't want to put two negatives together). - 13:42:54 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:ADAM- Although I knows you had good intentions, we atheists in the land of Canuk only thank ourselves for TURKEY DAY. This special day of "pig out on pumpkin pie" will be postponed until next week for me. - 13:49:27 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:IAN the Resource on Biblical Blunders- Other than posting these biblical blunders, tell us more about yourself. - 13:53:02 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Rob:JOETTE: Actyally the site isn't mine, but is owned by someone called Caleb. As for the IPU's, well they can go swivel on my IPF. - 13:58:10 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Rob:MARLENE: I think the God-squad have probably realised their blunder. Methinks the christian faith has just decreased in entropy. - 14:02:47 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:ROB- Strange weather we're having here in otherwise sunny and seasonably cold Manitoba. The temps have been above average and this is the second huge thunderstorm we've had in a week. Maybe we won't get snowed under until after spook night. The xtians would likely interpret this as a sign of the end times. It's me that has reprimanded you on the IPU. Her Pinkness will sever your IPF if you continue this heresy! - 14:18:18 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

SCIENTITS ACTING THE WAY CREATIONISTS PICTURE THEM: :--Evolutionist 1: Now what's this thermodynamics stuff--if its true, our theory is shot to hell!...Evolutionist 2: Awww, just ignore it and don't say anything about it!...Ev 1: WHAT?!!! Ev 2: Yea, c'mon. There are so many things that disprove evolution you know, but if we just be quiet about them--nobody'll notice! Remember the conspiracy, Bob. We just don't want people to believe in the Bible--that's all. And if we can get them teach all this stuff in all of the world's universities, us scientists will be able to get most of the people in the world NOT to believe in the Bible--and us scientists will be able to RULE the WORLD. You'd like that, wouldn't you, Bob? - 14:31:49 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes:Marlene, you are such an eager beaver, as t'were, being so prepared to respond to my postings BEFORE i post them. . . so go right ahead, dump your quotes and conclusions out in all their glory for all to share. I know you're busting for that intellectual orgasm! Let go baby, and enjoy! Let's hear your prepared statement! PLEASE??? - 14:59:03 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene who actually prefers other types of orgasms but is honestly at a loss of understanding how you get off on your god???:FARNES (pvt)- Obviously you know not of what you speak. I rarely if ever "quote" anyone nor have I prepared any conclusions toward your arguement because of yet you haven't made any. Your making the fantastic claim of a creator and that claim having "something" to do with the second law of thermodynamics but you yet have to expand on that claim. I'm not making any fantastic claims here, you are. The onus is on you, soldier boy. - 15:21:54 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene :FARNES- Was it you that posted the supposed dialog between evolutionists. Have you any other "conspiracy theories"? - 15:27:32 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Peter:---Marlene--No it was I who posted that "mini-play" just to show how ludicrous the creationist position has become, as result of their endless ad hoc assumptions. They make the "Flat Earth Society" look rather mundane and rational by comparison. More of Bob and his friend coming soon. - 15:34:29 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:BTW FARNES- Have you anything to say other than personal attacks to people on this page? I would also assume that your arrogant but from the "lack of anything to contribute" in your posts, you don't have anything to be arrogant about. You do, seem though, to have "something" your defending against we infidels. We are waiting to here what it g.i.joe? - 15:36:12 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene..your thinking like an xtian..YIKES!:PETER- That was SO..realistic that I would have sworn it was one of the god-squad's posting. Brovo! - 15:38:36 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene -:FARNS- "hear what it is" - 15:40:28 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes :Hi Marlene! Sorry if I misunderstood your intentions when you proudly exclaimed that you had "done your homework on the 2nd law of thermodynamics and read what HAWKING had to say . . . blah blah shlop!" And that you are now "ready for this fantastic claim" So you were planning to use Hawking's perceptions without giving due credit, wot? Gee, you are so coy! Fickle little eager beaver! And no, that little "one-act" was certainly not from me! - 15:50:34 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Rob:Farnes: What exactly is your point? If you can prove the existence of a creator with the second law, then please, please do it here and now, so I can say I was ther when the world of science was turned upside down. - 16:08:50 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes..how old are you???:FARNES- You've had your little name calling episode, it's now time to get down to business, we are waiting! - 16:08:52 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes..how old are you???:FARNES- You've had your little name calling episode, it's now time to get down to business, we are waiting! - 16:08:58 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene..how old are you?:FARNES- You've had your little name calling episode, it's now time to get down to business, we are waiting! - 16:09:19 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:OOPS! - 16:10:04 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene...do you think he got the message???:ROB-Shall we bake a cake while we are waiting for Farnes??? - 16:11:39 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:ROB- An upside down cake??? - 16:12:59 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene who could have baked three cakes by now!:OH WELL FARNES- I've baked the cake and now I'm off to grandma's house. I'm JUST SO EXCITED, I can't wait until I get back to learn about your claim! - 16:16:28 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Rob:MARLENE: I'm afraid my cake has burnt. Well that's bloody entropy for you- perhaps I'll stick to salads. - 16:23:05 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene ..who's red cape is on and going out the door:ROB-Perhaps your oven is just too fast for Farnes??? FARNES- I was thinking, since maybe Hawking is the best person to consult to the second law of thermodynamics and since you seem to have quite the grasp on the subject, who would you suggest that I consult? (I can just imagine your answer, ha ha ha!) - 16:29:12 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Rob:MARLENE: I think I may have inadvertantly made a hot cross bun. - 16:30:00 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Rob:MARL-cough-cough-LENE: Sorry about that -my kiytchen is full of holy smoke at the moment. - 16:31:50 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Rob:MARLENE: "What big eyes you have" -all the better for see the the Lord Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Blight. - 16:33:14 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes:Hi Robbie! Hi Marlene! I can't prove a damn thing! Can you? By the way, Robbie, you can say you were there when the world of science was turned upside down any time you wish, what with advent of the 1rst ammendment and all. . . Anywho, what i wanted to post was the idea that in a universe that is in the process of winding down (paraphrasing Peck) the phenomenon of evolution seems to be self-winding, or rather: it is somehow fueled by an energy source unknown as yet to man. I was curious as to how you folks might interpret the implications of this. Of course, you'll no doubt contest the scenario, never accepting the premise. OK, you got it out of me! I'm so easy! Your turn. . . - 16:36:28 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes:Oh, yeah, Marlene, regarding your orgasms. . . do you prefer the top or bottom? no, wait, let me guess :0) - 16:38:58 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes:hey guys, i'd bake you a cake, but i know how full you already are.**smile** - 16:42:26 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes:well? - 16:45:05 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Rob:Alas poor Farnesie -I knew him well. Sorry to be so rude but I'm an eager little beaver too. You can't prove anything- well I'm glad that's sorted (neither can I ultimately, but then I hope I have never claimed to). As for the 1st Ammendment, I am afraid you've lost me (we don't have them over here in old blighty). I'm glad you cleared up the mess about entropy. The energy source appears to be the big bang (there does not need to be energy continually supplied as I think you seem to believe). As for where the BB got it's energy from, well that is a matter at the frontier of physics. I know one theory purports that the energy is borrowed, and will be reclaimed in a collapsing universe. I'm afraid that's all I know on the subject, but as you can see it in no way implies the existence of a creator as a neccessary explanation. - 16:47:09 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes:Marlene and Robbie, i bet know the kind of cake you guys are expert in . . ."half-baked" am i right? - 16:48:00 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Rob:Farnes: Wrong! I just pray and they come out perfect every time! - 16:54:18 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Rob:Farnes: Come on, is that a sponge between your ears or what? - 16:55:43 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Rob:I know, I know -come judgement day I'll get my just desserts: You can't have your cake and eat it - 16:59:09 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes:Robbiesahn, thank you for the straight response. Playing with speculation and possible implications is fun! Of course, the premise does not provide for a "necessary" solution to the exclusion of all others. It is just a premise upon which to speculate. It seems, however, to demonstrate that the answer does indeed await outside the current boundaries of science. - 17:01:13 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Rob:Farnes: As has many other topics of debate between the church and science. You would have thought with god on their side they would have made a few less blunders? - 17:04:14 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes:Rob, why would you think God, if He exists, would employ methods that conform to your level of understanding (e.g. that God is on the side of those who claim to believe; or, that God is on anyone's side; or, that God is bound by scripture)? - 17:11:30 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Rob:Farnes:It looks like we've got a "define-a-god-dilemma" on our hands. I am only responding to the god's that have been put forward to me, and the evidence to support them. - 17:16:41 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes:Rob, I agree that one of the basic unanswered questions we all face is that of "defining God." Alas, methinks that ultimately we each must discover the answer alone and for ourselves only. In this regard, i don't quite buy that you only respond to other's notions of God, or lack thereof. Refusal or reluctance to share your personal notions is your choice, though. Show yourself, man! - 18:07:31 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes. . . For The Record. . . :Rob, just to reach a sense of completion with you. . . for the record i never did make any claims regarding being able to prove anything. That issue was already "sorted' for me, but i'm glad i was able to help you along. You're welcome. - 18:15:14 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Peter:Peter---To posit the supernatural explains nothing, it merely asserts the futility of explanation. Incidentally, have you ever read Smith's book "Atheism: The Case Against God"? - 18:21:43 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Peter:Yes, I have, but I was directing that last post to Farnes - 18:23:14 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Rob:Farnes: I don't see why it is that I have to have have a notion of god. My personal notion is that the concept of a god is a human concoction -much as Invisible Pink Unicorns are. Would you insist that I have "must" discover the definition of the IPU? Also, when you say we "must discover for ourselves", that kind of makes a few assumptions don't you think? As for your "claims", I was only picking up on what I had actually read, which is why I (and I think Marlene) were trying to get you to show *your*self. I'm not sure exactly what you have helped me with, or what I am supposedly grateful for, but your are most gracious in your pleasantries. - 18:31:48 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes:Hi Bats! You may cease speaking to yourself and address me directly. Thank you for the genuflection though, quite flattering actually! Rob, ahem, i am muchly disappointed in you! Shame! I apologize for misinterpreting portions of your previous postings as possible signs of honesty and intelligence (enough p's for ya?). My mishtake! I will spoonfeed you if if i must. . . here goes: 1) so do I! 2) do you consider "IPU" and the concept of God to be one and the same idea? 3) very good! if you can figure out these "assumptions" you'll get extra pudding tonight! 4) what "claims" are you talking about, mate? 5) the splendor that is me I will share when i see fit, thank you. 6) I have helped you to remember that no one can "prove" anything, and pointed out to you that you were incorrect assuming i had made such a claim. My, you have a short memory! 7) my pleasantries are a happiness i will share when i see fit, thank you. anything else? - 19:31:54 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes:Well Peter-bird? Where is ya? - 19:52:09 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Peter:Farnes--I'm here, OK, start this "slapping around" - 19:55:56 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes:I thought you were going to "rip my hide like never before." Okay, Bats, lay it on me brutha! - 19:57:48 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes:Hey Birds, why did you want to fight here instead of Theo Chat? curious - 19:58:39 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes:Boids, did you have something to say to me? You have my attention, go ahead. . . astonish me1 - 19:59:49 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Peter:Farnes: Ok, lets cut out the cutesy little names. I have nothing to "lay on" before you briefly outline your position. - 20:00:53 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes:ok Boidboy, here's my position: you have a fearful little mind that seems to hate the idea of God regardless of the fact that His existence does indeed fall within the realm of possibilty. I say that you, my friend, are avoiding suffering by denying what you actually percieve. . . you are refusing delivery, as t'were. If i am off base, please then explain why you are so hostile and lacking in imagination. - 20:05:17 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes:oh yeah, in case you haven't noticed, i'm not here to "help" you, i'm here to play with you - 20:06:02 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

--Farnes--First off, your insulting nature is unnecessary and annoying. If you make one more post similar to the last one, our conversation is over at that juncture. - 20:08:21 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes:Voltaire said " though doubt is painful, certainty is absurd" in other woids boidy- if you deny that God's existence does fall within the realm of possibility, well then the onus is on YOU to prove He does not exist. - 20:10:07 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes:see Boids, you are avoiding! you are! i tawt i taw you avoiding! - 20:11:22 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Peter:--Farnes--Unless you display traits of mature behavior, I am not at all interested in continuing any conversation with you about anything. - 20:14:06 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Rob:Farnes: 1)So do you "not see why you should have a concept of god"? 2)You are sadly missing the point -if people suggest supernatural entities, there is no reason why I should have a notion of such an entity unless they state it. 3)You assume i)God exists, ii)Everyone (if anyone) is capable of defining him 4)The "claims" that you never made. Don't be so touchy! 5)Fine and dandy, but don't go 'round ordering everyone else to show themselves 6)Well I didn't need help remembering- just like you, I've got that one sorted too. I also never assumed you had made such claims, but that was what the discussion implied (at the point I joined it), so I challenged you to clarify. 7)I don't suppose your notion of god is you ego is it? 8) I won't keep you, methinks you might like to get the humble pie in the oven... - 20:14:29 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes:ok Petey. . . just answer this one, ok: do you rule out the possibilty that God may exist? - 20:18:28 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Peter:--Farnes--Our conversation is over. Please to not address me again. - 20:22:03 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Rob:Farnes: 1)I don't hate the notion of god, 2)I have not at any stage denied that "god" or anything lies outside the realm of possiblity, including IPUs. 3)Who are you to say what other people perceive? 4)I for one was not being hostile, I am just here to have fun like you. 5)You seem to have a bit of a complex (and I'm not referring to your neural network). - 20:23:30 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes:Rob- 1) huh? 2) are all supernatural entities possible explainations of our existence and origins? 3)i assume that we all have our own private perspectives through which to experience life and the universe, and that this perspective cannot be shared (maybe reflected in art) 4)what are these fictitious claims you are constantly alluding to? 5)i thought you liked it 6)so now you realize you were mistaken? 7)see #3 above 8) Rob, you flatter yourself! wow talk about narrow! - 20:26:22 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene back from gramma's house. :FARNES the DO-Do of the Man-made Board- Who said that your god is ABSOLUTELY not possible. Not I! Although, the lack of evidence for it's exsistence leads me to conclusion that there is a 99.99% chance that it does NOT exsist. So I'm not exactly a 100% atheist, I'm a 99.99% atheist. - 20:31:25 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes:Rob, 1) you sound like you do! 2)so your response to the possibililty is that of utter disrespect? very enlightened indeed! 3)i simply stated that we all have our own perspective and that no one could really know another's experience.. . how did you get that i am telling you what other's are experiencing? wow you are so off! 4) good 6) prease to exprain "comprex?" - 20:31:46 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes:Marlene, the orgasm queen of the room! greetings! i hope all went well at Grandma's? :O) - 20:33:07 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes:Hey Pete! feel free to jump back in now that your pals are all here! - 20:34:55 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

DO-DO of the Room:quack! - 20:36:01 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes:Hey, do you guys realize that i am running a fever! yes! called out from work yesterday and today! given this, plus 3 of you against 1 of me, well... - 20:37:19 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes:Hey, where are y'all? Back to baking cakes? - 20:39:46 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Rob:Farnes:Looks like you're the one who needs spoonfeeding: 1) You said "so do I" -were you referring to my not seeing why I should have a notion of god? 2)It lies within the realm of possiblity that they may do, since they are supernatural and beyond our knowledge. 3)Well that was not the assumption upon which the statement I referred to was based upon 4)Duh! I was pointing out I never assumed you to have made any claims, hence the speech marks. 5)I thought I saw a puddy cat 6)No, I am saying I never made the mistake you assumed I had in the first place. 7)see 3. 8)Sorry, I thought seeing as you were into baking and all that... - 20:40:48 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes:This is MY ROOM now! Cowering atheists beware! - 20:41:45 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene :FARNES- All went well! Almost missed the visit though, some xtian inmate was bragging about what a smart cookie her grandson Farnes was and my ole gramma said " he's likely the F*&#ing Kebbler elf". Almost caused a lockdown. I see you've had nothing of any importance to say! - 20:41:53 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Rob:Farnes: I think I know why you are getting feverish. Anyhow, there's only one of me, and right now I am getting ready to see where Little Red Riding Hood has got to. - 20:44:27 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes:Marlene, how perceptive of you! maybe you are not a complete @$$ after all! - 20:44:41 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Rob:Farnes: Speak of the devil! - 20:45:34 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes:see ya Rob, if you're leaving. . . no hard feelings, just playing the game old boy! - 20:45:44 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes:Marlene, here's a tip. . . no one really cares how much you do or don't value their statements old girl! - 20:46:51 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Rob:Farnes: Seeing as she's back, I guess the woodcutting could wait a few more minutes. No hard feelings.. why, did I come across as hostile? Besides, you're not having this page -you certainly don't deserve it! - 20:48:19 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:FARNES- Oh, but I am! Ask my very gullible xtian friends! They seem to always come to me with their stupid questions and this last time I told them to ask their ever intelligent god. That was last week, they are still waiting for an answer. And I thought my personal relationship with them was superficial! - 20:49:19 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes:don't worry, i have an open door policy on know-it-alls! - 20:49:33 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Rob:Farnes: That gives rise to the circular arguement "no-one cares about if you care about Marlene valueing statements... ad infinitum. Anyway, I care. - 20:51:19 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes:Rob, i was speaking to Marlene. . . maybe it was too "inside" for you. The response was appropriate in addressing her judgement upon my postings, regardless. - 20:53:32 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes: - 20:55:46 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:ROB- Lay down that axe and savor the ahh-humm..wisdom.. of out lastest xtian moron. This one thinks he's ahh-hummm...got us. When's Turkey Day in your country? - 20:56:03 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Rob:Farnes: Well don't be such a loose cannon then! Think twice (or even once)- type once (unless you are useless at typing like me). - 20:57:08 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes:Well, i'll come clean y'all. . . i've seen some brutal treatment levied in here at the expense of well intentioned (if lost) seekers. . . the brutality seemed to get your ego's off. . . so i guess i figured all was fair in this room. by the way, it has been somewhat pleasurable brutalizing you all, thanks! - 20:58:44 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Rob:MARLENE: Turkey Day -I don't know. Maybe we should make it today to commemorate Farnes's arguements. - 20:58:56 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene..I'd be disappointed if you did:FARNES- The fact that you don't value my statements becomes me!! - 20:59:06 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes: Especially you Marlene! yummy! Come to your big dumb moron! c'mere baby! - 21:00:02 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:ROB- NAAAAAAAAAA! He's just self-proclaimed xtian moron. Turkey Day should stand for a big moron, someone like Duanne Gish. - 21:01:35 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:I never said i didn't value your statements. I said no one cares if you value THEIR statements. And you call me a moron! bravo! - 21:02:59 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Rob:Farnes: I can't comment on the brutal treatment (I've only just got back to Uni and free Internet), but I always respond to well intentioned arguements if they are prepared to be supported. As for egos getting off, you'd be a hypocrite to say yours wasn't 30 minutes ago. As for brutalisation, I don't feel particularly brutalised (but I feel like I've had a good workout -Thanks). - 21:03:45 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes:ouch Marlene! That hurt! you are such a mean mistress! sultry though! i dig that! - 21:04:11 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene ...in drag...:FARNES- I know this question may seem moronic but I really want you to understand it. What if I'm not a female???? Still want me baby??? - 21:04:23 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes:Rob, my ego has had a few moments of indulgence here, yes. - 21:05:49 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes:Marlene, if you are a male and use the handle "Marlene" well, naaah! your gramma can keep you! - 21:07:04 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes:This is fun. . . having a cyber kickfight with a prissy old girl, yeah baby! - 21:08:28 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Rob:Silver birches, here I come! - 21:08:37 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:ROB- An xtian that's into s&m and bi at the same time! This IS a first on this page. I wonder how all the other sheep will feel about this one's true colors? - 21:08:57 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes:Marlene? you there? what's up? need some time to adjust your nuts? - 21:09:30 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Rob:Marlene: I think the sheep especially should watch out. (Remember, It could be ewe) - 21:10:21 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes:Marlene, it's about time you did some wondering! - 21:10:35 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:ROB- That's an endangered tree!!! - 21:10:37 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Old MacDonald had a Farnes, ee-i ee-i o - 21:11:23 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes:Marlene, it's about time you did some wondering. .. maybe if you can sustain it you'll be able to wake up your imagination - 21:12:16 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Rob:Marlene: Yes it is, and I am going to make it into a crucifix for an endangered xtian. - 21:12:31 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes:noname.. . LOLOLOL! - 21:12:52 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes:Rob, as an offering? how gentile of you! - 21:13:45 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:ROB- Damn good thing we're not sheep! And not blind! - 21:14:17 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Rob:Farnes: Yes, I thought the IPU would appreciate a tender young xtian - 21:15:06 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes:Marlene, if you were a sheep, gee whiz! maybe gramma would eat you! - 21:15:44 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:ROB- Take the design from the one above! - 21:16:14 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes:Rob, I would appreciate a tender Christian! wouldn't you? - 21:16:56 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:FARNES- Gramma doesn't eat sheep, leaves this dry feeling in her mouth. - 21:17:50 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes:oh, she already DOES? - 21:17:56 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Rob:Farnes: Yes, but even better would be christian tender: "That'll be three Moses and a Solomon, please." - 21:18:21 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes:maybe if you relaxed and got into it? - 21:18:52 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Rob:Sorry, we don't take Mother T's any more -their credit's expired - 21:21:06 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes:I love you guys! You are a real whoot! - 21:22:08 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Rob:Joseph of Aremethia? That will do nicely - 21:22:34 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes:It's too bad PeteyBoid quit. 3 on 1 is a much more interesting matchup, no? - 21:24:12 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:I've got to go watch those ahh..humm...hunks on WWW. It's been nice talking about nothing with you Farnes! Adam will be real impressed with your below-arrogant dialogue this afternoon. - 21:24:20 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes:Hey Marlene the she-male. . . you still lurkin' about? - 21:25:01 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes:Marlene. . . have a pleasant evening - 21:25:52 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Rob:FARNES:Seriously, you might like to read my essays. Look at the link in the atheism department. - 21:26:21 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:ROB- Did you hear??? Mother T is in hell. Seems Gabby got the paperwork mixed up with the Dianna thing and all and she was sent to hell. No kisses from jesus there, I'm sure! - 21:27:21 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes:Rob, are you published? - 21:29:33 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Rob:MARLENE: Hell? I'm sure hell is heaven for her- think of all the sick and needy. - 21:29:47 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes:Marlene, shouldn't you be warming up the coke bottle right about now? don't let it get too hot! - 21:30:41 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Rob:Farnes: No, (not yet!) -just wrote a couple of essays for a friend's page on atheism. - 21:30:55 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes:Rob, do you find the design of this room inconvenient in that it doesn't refresh to the most recent postings? - 21:33:17 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Rob:Farnes:A little, but then normally things don't happen in real time. I am usually about 7 hours out of sync with the action. - 21:35:08 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes:Rob, is our chat style today upsetting the intended pace of the room, then? - 21:37:25 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes:Not to mention language? - 21:37:54 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:ROB- No, I understand there are no sick and needy in hell. She's totally at a loss! No one wants to hear about jesus, there are no virgin females for her to recruit, Stan can't stand her and is doing his best to have her released but his hands are tied. It all Gabby's fault. If he wasn't worried about the color of dress Di was wearing when she died his mind would have been on his work. - 21:38:41 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Rob:Yes, perhaps, but then there's no-one else about so who cares (apart from Jesus)? - 21:39:19 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:FARNES- Do you prefer French???? - 21:40:35 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Rob:Marlene: I wonder if her skin has shrivelled any further with the heat? - 21:41:31 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes:Rob, i am under the impression here that the regulars check out what has transpired in their absence. . . am i wrong about this? - 21:42:35 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:ROB- And god, and the ipu and Corny and Stan and all those other entities of a psychotic mind. - 21:43:11 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes:Marlene, i prefer English. you speakie? - 21:43:57 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Rob:Farnes: I can't speak for all others, but yes, you can go back and see what's been going on. Why -do you like it here? - 21:44:12 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:FARNES- For this one, you are right!!! ROB- Stan can't stand to look at her!!!! - 21:44:50 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes:lull in the action. . . c'mon Marlene, let out some of that hate baby! don't make me wait, you tease! - 21:45:12 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Rob:Marlene: Psychotic? I wouldn't have it any other way! - 21:45:45 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:FARNES- If you want to communicate in multitude of languages, Bill would be the expert on that. - 21:46:47 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes:Rob yes, i kinda like it here! at least you guys are fiesty! and i don't feel guilty expressing myself to you all because everyone here seems pickled in arrogance (yes, including me) it's fun once in a while - 21:47:13 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Rob:Marlene: I bet the cleaners hate her too- all those dust-collecting wrinkles - 21:47:49 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes:Marlene, i want to abuse you in English, thanks. - 21:48:16 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes:seduce me you know-it-all witch! - 21:49:25 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Rob:Farnes: Peekie-vous at meine essays? They're not too long seeing as I'm being sent to hell for them... - 21:49:43 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:FARNES- Contrary to your assumption, hate isn't an emotion that I spend much time on. Actually I don't even think about the word until some xtian comes up with it. It seems to be an emotion they dwell on or something??? - 21:50:35 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Rob:Farnes: Maybe you'll only listen if I'm nice to you, O spawn of the devil >:) - 21:50:58 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Rob:MARLENE: Hate happens cos were human. It don't require judgement, it's just the way it is. - 21:52:19 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes:lolol! Rob - 21:52:43 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Rob:...but I should add I don't give much time to it either. - 21:53:16 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:FARNES- Why would you feel guilty about expressing yourself?? GUILT is another controlling emotion that the god-squad has expertise in. - 21:53:28 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:ROB- Maybe she can use that Hoover she likely sailed in there on! - 21:55:00 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes:Marlene, even your denial of hatred seems hate-filled! You are a piece of work, old girl! - 21:55:08 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Rob:MARLENE: Wrong! Guilt is what the judgement will be if you don't agree to pay by JC express - 21:56:39 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:FARNES- How so? And why do you keep referring to me as female? - 21:57:08 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Rob:Marlene, the spring chicken: I hope she wasn't using it on the Sabbath - 21:58:09 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:ROB- I think I'd rather spend my time in a prison in Istanbul (can't remember the modern name for the city)! - 21:58:33 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:ROB- Bet that's why she died so young!!!! - 21:59:40 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes:Marlene, 1)if you have to ask. . . 2)as far as female reference . . . you seem very effiminate, plus your handle is feminine - 22:00:11 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Rob:I wonder if her skin was made into a nice handbag for the poor to sell to Western tourists? - 22:01:09 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes:curious. . . what do you two do for a living? - 22:01:56 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Rob:Farnes: Read my essay and you would know! - 22:02:42 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Rob:Farnes: And yourself? - 22:03:36 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene...hummm..:FARNES- Am I just to sensative or do I get this vibe of hate coming from you?? I thought you were having fun here? - 22:03:53 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes:Rob, if i go read your essay am i going to get schmooped with ton's of spammy e-mail? - 22:04:09 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes:Rob, you first! Marlerne? occupation? Also, yes Marlene, i am not above "hate" and have felt it toward you, although not at the moment. - 22:06:38 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:ROB- You ARE a wonder! Now ain't that an idea! Think of what the Vatican would make of T-Skin purses! Your a genius! FARNES- I'm a truck driver, as in highway tractor, as in semi. Does that seem girly to you? - 22:07:01 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes:Marlene, i AM having fun! temporary emotional involvement is fun! very high entertainment value! - 22:08:01 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:FARNES!!!! I'm taken aback, I don't hate you!!! Xtians...sheesh! - 22:08:53 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes:a trucker named Marlene? yeah, pretty girlie i'd say! - 22:09:09 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Rob:Farnes:You won't get crummy e-mail, God's Honour! BTW I am a student, but I don't really want to repeat what I've written elsewhere. - 22:09:30 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes:At least i'm honest, Marlene. . . how's your integrity? - 22:10:09 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes:Marlene, have you read Rob's essays? - 22:10:53 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:FARNES- Unlike Rob, I have no problem with repeating what I have to say. Are you going to tell us what you do? - 22:12:51 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Rob (who's starting to feel very distrustded):Have you Marlene? - 22:14:23 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:FARNES- Just as upright as any of your brothers at the pk conventions! - 22:14:41 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes:freelance stage tech - 22:15:13 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Rob:Farnes: What country? Oh, all right- me first: England - 22:16:15 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene :ROB- Yes, I have but I'm sure Farnes hasn't sped-read them that fast! - 22:16:22 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes:Marlene, that's relief! For a monent there i thought you held yourself in higher esteem than you hold your brothers and sisters - 22:17:05 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes:Rob, i live/work in the US of A - 22:18:24 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene..the show must go on:FARNES- How's business? Me- Canada. You? - 22:18:33 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Rob:Well isn't this nice. So much for the Tower of Babel... - 22:19:28 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene don't get me wrong here:FARNES- I do hold myself in higher esteem than the pk's, I just said that my integrity was as honest as their's. - 22:21:23 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene :ROB- Yup! all shot to hell, until Farnes speaks with Bill of course. - 22:22:51 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes:Marlene, business is too good! I ran myself into the ground working too many 16-hour days this summer with little time off. . . it all caught up with me! I had to call out sick/get substitute yesterday and for tonight - 22:22:56 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes:Marlene, integrity is by definition "honest" the question regards the state of your integrity. . . is it intact? - 22:25:22 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Rob:Farnes: Well seeing as you think you're going to get sent loads of crap, I am a physics student that wants to change to Psychology and Philosophy. I just thought you might be interested as there is an essay about my "world view", and another about me. - 22:25:34 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:FARNES- And look how you've spent your holiday! - 22:26:38 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:FARNES- Just as intact as the pk's! - 22:27:57 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Rob:MARLENE: Who are the pk's? Over here they would think you were referring to a brand of nuts (of the dry-roasted variety), although I guess you have a similar definition. - 22:29:46 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes:yes Marlene of course you are correct in that this is all a waste of time. . . i am an artist also, but i am too weak due to flu to reach the level of concentration required - 22:33:31 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:ROB! You haven't heard of the pk's? Over here on the North American continent the xtian men have decided to take back their god-given place in the family. They just had a "pray-in" in Washington this last weekend. To me it's just a copy of the NOI but to xtians this is the biggest movement since exodus. These are men of integrity, John Wayne would be confused! - 22:33:55 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes:Rob, one of my best mates is a transplant from Bath. Are you in that vicinity by any chance? - 22:35:08 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes:I don't "get" the PK thing, myself - 22:36:30 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:ROB- Sorry about this, I forgot to post what pk stands for "promise keepers". - 22:37:09 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Rob:Farnes: I am in Oxford at the moment, but I live near London. I have been to Bath- it's a nice place. Where in the US are you? - 22:37:39 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes:Rob, my older brother has a MS in Physics he earned while working at Johnson Space center in Houston (flight simulation software desiner) BS in Math. no longer lives in Houston. . . works as consultant - 22:38:34 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Joette the C.A. who earns $100,000 a year and drives a Mercedes (just to get this out of the way):-->FARNES the ROADIE..is that where the oversized ego comes from? Lots of little girls hanging around the stage? - 22:38:45 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:WELL, It's been a blast but my boys are hungry so it's chow time. The boys are a terrier and a collie, they are also 99.99% atheist. - 22:39:20 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes:Rob, i live on small barrier island mid-Atlantic - 22:39:42 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:HOLD ON HERE, My boys aren't that hungry. HI JOETTE! - 22:41:01 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes:Joette. . . the oversized ego comes from the oversized python in my shorts baby! - 22:41:21 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes:i've got a Rottweiler me-self! Rob? your breed of choice? - 22:42:25 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Joette:-->FARNESWORTH..well, if and when our Bill comes back, he'll want a showdown! (I believe he only has a boa constrictor) - 22:42:53 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Rob:MARLENE: It's beddy-byes for me too (11.30pm here), but I have had fun. Farnes- if you're worried, the link contains my e-mail address so you can forward any crap to me! Joette:Well my brother earns $110,000 a year, so there! (I'm poor as shit, though). You Merc wouldn't happen to be armour plated, would it? - 22:42:57 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:ROB- Goodnight! BTW, contact the Vatican with that idea. - 22:45:04 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes:Joette, forgive my forwardness. . . but i think i like you already! who is Bill? you all seem to know him.. . is he an @$$howl? or is he a hero? - 22:46:08 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Rob:Farnes: No dogs, just allergies! I do wear a T-shirt with "If you're scared, get a dog" slogan though. BTW, I think the Animal Welfare Society might want to know what that Python is being subjected to down there (maybe the forked tongue suits your two-facedness?) - 22:46:50 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes:goodnight you big lugs! - 22:47:22 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes:Joette, why would this Bill fellow want a showdown with me? We've not even met! - 22:48:41 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes:Rob? are you trying to insult me? it's really hard to tell! - 22:50:22 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Rob:JOETTE: I look nothing like old Charlie boy, and for that I shall stay up a bit longer. Farnes, don't get excited. Bill is not going to give you a chance to massage your ego (or your python) - 22:50:38 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Rob:Farnes: Insults? Who, me? - 22:52:23 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes:wow! so i'll get to meet your God? His name is "Bill?" whoopie! - 22:53:06 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:FARNES- Actually Bill and you will likely find you have a lot in common although you may get lost in first, second, third or whatever language gear he may be in. - 22:53:40 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes:Rob, you are quite gutless after all. how disappointing, for a while you had me thinking you might be a decent sort after all. - 22:54:28 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Rob:Farnes: You just don't listen: WE HAVEN'T GOT ONE (and that doesn't mean there's a vacant position, either) - 22:54:49 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Rob:Farnes: Decent? By my own standards there couldn't be a more decent guy. - 22:56:14 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:ROB- Speaking of vacant, once Gabby straightens up the paper work there may be a spot if Farnes wants to stay with Stan. - 22:58:05 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes:Rob, i'm sure. I was being facetious about Bill being your God by the way. . .don't panic! it'll be all right! - 22:58:22 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes:joette? aren't you going to defend me? - 22:59:22 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:FARNES- We will help you find a home, but this isn't likely it. - 22:59:35 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Rob:Farnes: Facetious? Surely not -it's just not your style. - 23:00:35 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

"PSEUDO" BILL--:---I am only interested in "raw data" and what is "out there". Apples, oranges and the ID. I'm not saying there is aGod, but then I can't say there isn't one either, unless Hawking says so. I think there is more than likely a "cosmic, unconscious, deterministic intelligenge" - 23:01:11 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes:ho hum, well, Marlene and Rob and Peter and Joette: it's been schwell! really! frank you! frank you very much! got to be going. . . i'll check back. . . - 23:01:19 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Rob:PSEUDO BILL: ooo, like the python -that was below the belt - 23:02:11 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes:Rob, i would hardly consider you as a style analyst. . . well, "anal" maybe - 23:02:38 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:FARNES- There are many vacant mansions in jc land. Every xtian out there has that vacancy sign in there eyes. What a wonderful way to advertise! You can't miss them, just follow the yellow brick road. - 23:03:55 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes:Joette come back. . . ! c'mon you rich feline! meeow! - 23:04:05 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Rob:Farnes: See you 'round. I really am back to bed now, whence I shall dream you followed the link, only to awaken and find it was not a dream. Goodnight and God Bless. - 23:04:58 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes:Marlene, you are a half-wit. Rob, you are delusional. Pete, you are a coward. Joette, you're a minx, baby! - 23:06:31 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Rob-not anal but very retentive-:Farnes: Just let me go to bed will ya? - 23:06:38 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes:Rob, goodnight, brother! catch you in here some other time! sleep well and take care, truly - 23:07:36 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes:Marlene, break's over. . . back on your head! - 23:08:39 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

"PSEUDO" CARL:--Methinks references unto person what whoa? interesting! Hmmm...thine countenance quickly aglances directionlessly, yet oh so ponderously, albeit recognizably upon an even larger non-limbed reptiles which resides, albeit, temporarily at times of tittilation and extreme lust resembleth that of what symbolizes the festive holiday season on british isles, known better in some rather smaller circles therin as a yule log. - 23:10:17 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes: I am FARNES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! - 23:10:22 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes:Heavens to Mergatroid! what was that?! - 23:11:43 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes:you're after my python! heathen! - 23:12:41 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Joette:-->FARNES..we are having great fun with you. Do you like being laughed at, or can do you know how to add anything substantive to our usual think-tank sessions? - 23:20:08 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Joette:-->ROB..why are you going to bed so early on a Saturday night? And thank (you may put your favourite imaginative entity here) you don't look like Charlie! - 23:22:09 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Joette:-->MARLENE..here in my burg we are celebrating Oktoberfest, where the beer flows for 10 straight days, all the visiting Germans and Amarikans get so drunk they puke in public (it's that tasty Canadian beer) to the tune of 20 million bucks. People get naked, they brawl and overall it is ten days of hedonistic heaven. I think old Erika's going to try to get her ugly mug on the news at any minute as this is not the christian way! - 23:26:58 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- We have the very same celebration here but I'm not sure when it will be held. Old Erica's hair will be standing on end for sure! What will it be this time?? The evils of alcohol or the evils of the combination of Americans and Germans? - 23:32:02 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:Have you got a web site for your local newspaper? Maybe some journalist will risk his camera lens and take her picture. I'd love to see what she looks like! - 23:34:06 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes:Hi girls! i'm home! why Joette? you are not interested in my python i take it? laugh at me will ya! why i oughta. . . . . ! boy that really steams my bean! i mean, some people, y'know. . . i think i'm gonna cry. . . bwaaahaaaa! - 23:40:38 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes:Joette, what could possibly contribute more than your descriptions of folks puking in the street? wow, those are some tuff standards! i don't know about this! Joette, you are one smooth wordsmith!. . . weave your magic spell with them woids o'yours! temptress! - 23:42:35 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes:$100,000 /year? you must have a REAL nice hiney! - 23:43:56 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Joette:-->FARENES..man you are boring! Yes, I have a great hiney, and my breasts are great too, although they have been discussed here previously. However, I'm not just a pretty face you know. I know the right people. - 23:49:53 on 11 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene..Joette and Farnes:Your turn Joette! I've got to go watch the Saturday night HBO movie of the week. I couldn't possibly miss that. The movie better be good because the actors stink. Check in after the movie. - 0:03:24 on 12 Oct 97 GMT

Joette:-->MARLENE..I think I have left Farnes baby speechless. For myself, the AL game is in the 11th inning (go Tribe!), and Leiter is blowing the game for the Marlins in the NL game, so I have to go do some armchair coaching. ADAM in abstentia, I will win this bet! - 0:13:52 on 12 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes:Yeah, i'm bored too! see ya - 0:15:17 on 12 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene it's a case of Joette has struck the guy out!:WELL...you must have been just too much for Farnes! The movie isn't good so I thought I'd check in and I expected him to last much longer than that. Maybe he drank the whole bottle of Niquil for that flu of his. - 0:48:55 on 12 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes:this is a pretty scuzzy room. . . sort of like a "Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolfe?" vibe. Marlene, you and Joette make a very nice pair. congratulations. Rob, so long. it was almost pleasurable yapping with you. Pete, i don't know exactly why i was so mean to you. next time we meet i don't plan on being that mean. you guys are good for blowing off a bit of steam, but beyond that i don't see much here. I'll check in from time to time to relive the love, though! peace godless ones! - 1:38:36 on 12 Oct 97 GMT

Dornen:I see in Italy, eathquakes have destroyed many homes and a Basilica. Much money is being spend on the Basilica but nothing at on on the pitiful homes of pitiful Italians!..... Bet a buck that the "pitiful Italians" will be going to church next Sunday!~....... Jezzzzzzz, will it ever stop? - 2:07:26 on 12 Oct 97 GMT

Joette:-->FARNES..poor baby has to take his ball and go home. Actually there often is a lot here, so I guess today was just a sad commentary on your mentality. - 2:09:57 on 12 Oct 97 GMT

Dornen:Any Atheists here, or other good type persons? - 2:11:58 on 12 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene Welcome!:DORNEN- Not as long as those pitiful Italians keep supporting their pitiful religion. - 2:12:12 on 12 Oct 97 GMT

Joette:-->DORNEN..so true, but we have to appreciate the fact that the bascilica is hundreds of years old and brings a lot of money into the community. Without it, the region would suffer tremendously, even without the earthquake. - 2:12:38 on 12 Oct 97 GMT

Dornen:~~~Farnes.. I don't see much here either...... Atheist chat are rare things these days!.... too many kids in the world!..... need more birth-control pills!.... make room for old farts and fartetts!..... ~~~ - 2:14:49 on 12 Oct 97 GMT

Joette:-->DORNEN..I should qualify my last post. The basilica brings a lot of money via tourists, not just good little catholics who like to throw their money into the world's largest corporation. - 2:15:14 on 12 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:DORNEN- Barnes is whining, that's all. I'm not at all like Virgina Wolfe, yuck! Gotta go back and watch _The Practice_, check in later. JOETTE- Whining damn xtians! And we were actually nice to him too! - 2:15:15 on 12 Oct 97 GMT

MARLENE...... Thank you for your warm welcome......... JOETTE........ I would argue that Basilicas take money and resourses OUT of a community, not add to the community.... Need to feed all the Priests, and nuns, and helpers, and helpers-helpers, and assistant clergy, and assistant nuns, and visitors and popes and bishops, and....... - 2:19:14 on 12 Oct 97 GMT

Most priests are pretty well fed... Most peasants are pretty hungry.... I shoud'a become a priest!...... lots of sex, travel, and an ample supply of hungry peasants!.... Now THAT is Christianity! - 2:21:33 on 12 Oct 97 GMT

Dornen........ :~~sorry, that was me! - 2:22:37 on 12 Oct 97 GMT

Peter:---Dornen--- Define: Atheist. - 2:28:19 on 12 Oct 97 GMT

Dornen:? - 3:04:25 on 12 Oct 97 GMT

Dornen:Peter... Still there? - 3:05:29 on 12 Oct 97 GMT

PETER........ Sorry, I missed your request to define what an Atheist is!........ If you manage to come back soon, here is MY definition!...... I are one!....... I have no belief in the existence of a personal, prayer-answering god, gods, or goddesses. I have no belief in the existence of a spiritual world, separate from the physical world as we know it!..... Of the 25,000 gods around, not a one has been very believable, much less useful!.... how about that, for starters? - 3:10:35 on 12 Oct 97 GMT

Dornen!:Somebody ought to tell the SYSOPS that it is NOT the 12th of October, GMT at this moment, but the 13th......... !....... - 3:16:05 on 12 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:DORNEN- Sound like an atheist to me! But you could be one of those silly sheep in fox clothing. There are many sheep out there that have the were-with-all to do it but there are the very few. Their favorite these days is wrapping themselves in macro-micro evolution, anthropic principle and the latest the second law of thermodynamics. They weasel their way in, mentioning these subjects them slam dunk us with that all these scientific theories and laws "proves" that their god exsists. Although this is absolutely ridiculous they will do anything to prolong their illness! - 3:28:48 on 12 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:DORNEN- That should have read "the aren't many sheep out there". BTW this page is now based out of Texas and "lorded" over by Ron. It's central time on the North American continent. Where are you hailing from? - 3:33:40 on 12 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:DORNEN- Hope you haven't given up on us already?????? - 3:36:59 on 12 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:DORNEN- Don't give up. If nothing is happening at the moment we leave but we always come back. - 3:42:29 on 12 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene - I am located in Oregon....... Expecting our first snow tonight!........ The Christians seem to convieniently overlook that fact that of the 6.7 billion people on earth, only about 30% are so-called Christians!....... My arithmetic tell me that 70% are NOT Christians!........ Aater 2,000 years, you would think they (the Christians) woud give it up! - 3:53:59 on 12 Oct 97 GMT

Dornen:MARLENE...... Screwed up again!... sorry!...... I am still trying to figure out the protocol here!....... - 3:55:15 on 12 Oct 97 GMT

Toff: To JOETTE: I am glad for you that your hope lies in your lottery ticket; mine lies in Jesus Christ, so I don't need to waste my money on lottery tickets. He provides for my every need. To CARL: I'm not sure what you're on about! Please write more clearly. I am not a DEIST but I am indeed a THEIST in that I beleive in God. Please consult a Dictionary of Theology to obtain the proper meanings of these terms. To STEVEN: If you believe in EVIL, then what is the ULTIMATE STANDARD of good and evil? Or do neither exist? I say God is the ultimate standard. I would presume you would beg to differ. I am sorry you hate me and want to kill me despite the fact you know nothing about me. I am very sorry for your hard heart and the fact that you would judge ME according to what other people did in the name of "God" (Their own selfish purpose) hundreds of years ago. This is surely prejudice at its worst. To PETER: I had and still have some hope for you; I consider you a spring in the middle of the desert; a voice of reason still surviving in the midst of unbridled anger, hate and mindlessness. I pray that you may find God through seeking TRUTH. Christianity is NOT a mindless thing; I do not ask you to chop off your head and accept things purely by faith. God is an intelligent God who made our MINDS as well as our HEARTS and He expects us to use them both. As I said earlier, I value education highly, especially science, and I do not fear or run from truth, but seek and embrace it. I have a question for you; you won't believe in God or accept faith, because both are IRRATIONAL and can't be explained logically. Tell me; does this also mean you reject and deny the existence of LOVE, COMPASSION, SADNESS, HAPPINESS and ANGER, not to mention a whole plethora of other irrational and unexplainable emotions and concepts? You cannot EXPLAIN the love for your wife or children or friends; you just do it... you don't put a formula or equation behind it... you can't. Neither can you do it to God or faith. To EVERYONE: I came in here thinking this would be place of atheist/theist debate, and that there would be earnest discussion about truth. However, the unfortunate reality of internet chat rooms with any set agenda is that it fast becomes a place of hate and controversy. You may like it here, slandering Christians who have never done you wrong, lying about their beliefs and PRAYING to the atheist God, SATAN, for the triumph of atheism in this world, but I have to admit; it's a pretty sad place in here. Once again, I pray to the Holy Spirit, that in the true mercy and love of God, He will unveil your eyes, so that when you do read Scriptures, you will see the truth in it and embrace it, not run from it. May you all one day find the truth in Jesus Christ, Amen. SHALOM COMRADES! - 3:56:06 on 12 Oct 97 GMT

Dornen:TOFF...... Christians haven't done any wrong?...... when Christians build massive churches to house fat, dull, insipid clerics, while the poor get taxed to pay for the obscene Cathedrals polluting the planet? When Christians use the little $1.00 donations of poor people to influence nations, and produce the horrors of a starving overpopulation? and you are whining about being "slandered?"..... non-Christians have been extraordinarily generous to you sick, demented, whining, self-glorifying fruit-loopy, nut-cake, Christians long enough!.. Time for a pay-back!...... Well, I certainly fell much better now! - 4:05:49 on 12 Oct 97 GMT

Dornen:Toff...... In addition, the God of the Hebrew Bible is about the dumbest god ever invented by man!...... Talk about a bumbling supernatural being, the Old Testament shows a screw-ball of a god who can't even create a decent heaven without a bunch of moronic Angels!..... So, please resolve to create a better behaving god, or give it up!...... - 4:08:55 on 12 Oct 97 GMT

Dornen:? - 4:33:29 on 12 Oct 97 GMT

Toff:Dornen, the Christians I referred to that haven't done you any wrong are the ones you fail to look at... the loving, caring, selfless ones who obey the commands of Jesus in the gospel. You may think Christianity is about over-paid clerics and big cathedrals... that's not what I'm into. I am into believing what the Bible says... that ALL believers are priests, and that we should love one other, help the poor and needy and give out from what we have, as God has given to us. I am sorry if this offends you. And I do not glorify myself, rather, I give all glory, honour and praise to Jesus Christ, my Lord and my God. You know NOTHING about true Christianity so don't judge it and mindlessly slander it. - 4:36:42 on 12 Oct 97 GMT

Toff.... any religion that will condemn everyone except itself to some kind of eternal hell and damnation is an abomination and should be stamped on the face of our planet!.... Christian believe that Jews, Atheists, Hindues, Buddhists and the such are hell bound and have no hope. no matter what good such an evil religion does, is still evil!...... the Nazi's helped widows and starving children in Germany and the Sudetenland, more so than all of Christianity, but the Nazi's were still evil!..... so it is with Christianity!..... Christianity is becoming the scourge of the planet!..... - 4:45:07 on 12 Oct 97 GMT

Dornen:Dornen said that!..... really angry, as you can probably notice!...... - 4:46:42 on 12 Oct 97 GMT

Dornen:TOFF....... Whenever Christain beliefs can elevate a Jeffery Dahlmer to heaven as a "born-againer," yet condemn the Dali Lama to hell for all eternity, is evil through and through! - 4:48:24 on 12 Oct 97 GMT

Dornen....:I think that some supernatural belief systems are appropriate to the culture to which they are important.... But NEVER Christianity...... Christianity is the greatest insult to every have happened to all of mankind!...... - 4:54:22 on 12 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:DORNEN- As you have noticed, more sheep! Anyway, I doubt I'll beable to stay on for long. We're having a huge electrical storm here and I keep getting knocked off the net because of power failures. Hope you hang around! The next thing will be how terribly angry and full of hate we atheists are. You'll notice that the xtians never ever attribute those qualities to themselves. Hope your still around tomorrow. - 4:58:30 on 12 Oct 97 GMT

Toff:Marlene, you are wrong. I AM full of anger... HOLY ANGER... just like Jesus when he overturned the money changer's tables at the Jerusalem Temple. I am angry because you do nothing in here but tell lies about Christians. In WWII Christians sheltered Jews in their houses from the Nazis who slaughtered them. It is CHRISTIAN organisations who give to the poor and help the oppressed. I haven't seen my local atheist foundation do anything charity-wise lately. I do not HATE anyonem, nor CONDEMN them to hell, as you believe. But if you deny God's loving plan of salvation for your life, you SEND YOURSELF TO HELL; God doesn't do it. I can see that you are all too far blinded to be open to the truth about my faith, and are intensely angry towards me for no reason, so I am forced to discontinue coming here and listen to your hate posts. May Jesus have mercy on your souls, angry as they are towards Him. - 9:54:41 on 12 Oct 97 GMT

IAN>.>.>.>...:From The Bible’s Hygene Department (1)....The Lord Promised: "Therefore, behold, I will bring evil upon the house of Jeroboam, and will cut off from Jerobean him that pisseth against the wall...."- 1 Kings 14:14.-.-.-. This unsanitary practice caused serious erosion of the mud walls. - 11:53:00 on 12 Oct 97 GMT

---Dornen--I asked you to define what an atheist is, not give me your own particular set of non-beliefs. However it's good enough for me. - 12:32:22 on 12 Oct 97 GMT

Peter:--Toff--OK I'll give you another chance to make your case for the existence of this god. But it will have to be done as it would in a rational forum of discussion. In doing so, your first task is to give an intelligible description of what "God" is. What is it for that which you are claiming existence? Until you do so, the term "God" is cognitively empty, and any attempt to prove he exists is logically absurd. - 12:39:10 on 12 Oct 97 GMT

Peter:--Toff-- By the way, the process of emotions can be easily explained. It is basically a four step process which is: 1. Perception. 2. Identification 3. evaluation. 4. Reaction - 12:42:37 on 12 Oct 97 GMT

IAN>.>.>.>...:From The Bible’s Slapstic Comedy (1)....The Lord threatened his children: "Behold, I will currupt your seed, and spread dung upon your faces...." - Malachi 2:3. - 13:33:38 on 12 Oct 97 GMT

IAN>.>.>.>...:From The Bible’s Sport (1)....Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones." - Paslms 137:9 - 13:34:36 on 12 Oct 97 GMT

IAN>.>.>.>...:From The Bible’s Sport (2)....And he (David) bought out the people that were in it, and cut them with saws, and with harows of iron, and with axes. Even so dealt David with all the cities of the children of Ammon..." - 1 Chronicle 20:3 - 13:35:53 on 12 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:TOFF- Au revoir! And don't eat any yellow snow! IAN- And Toff's lord loves children! - 13:48:50 on 12 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:TOFF- There is quite the difference between debate and preaching. I haven't told one lie about a xtian. I've only posted my observations. You'd think, according to your biblical drivel, that you'd stick around and keep preaching until you "saved" we infidels. I don't know Toff, according to your jesus, one doesn't make it to heaven with works. Ye toil too hard for nothing methinks! - 14:15:08 on 12 Oct 97 GMT

Joette:-->TOFF...shame on you. I am referring to the insipid reply you made to myself when I acknowledged your question about hope. Like most brain-washed persons, you very selectively missed to the important parts of the response and chose only to respond to something that was said with tongue firmly in cheek. You are exactly like any evangelist found on most television stations. - 14:46:36 on 12 Oct 97 GMT

Joette:-->TO ALL..since TOFF has decided to leave us as is the regular modus operendi for his ilk, I would like to draw your attention to his absurd claim that only christian organizations give to charities. I am offended by such stupidity. - 14:51:44 on 12 Oct 97 GMT

Abatsapeter...I am trying to see things exactly as they are.I find that understanding the Christian mind is good practice for reasonable thinking especially when coupled with an honest study of what the Bible really says and Christianity's history. I'm walking away from my fundie upbringing and still wondering if I'll be struck by lightening for my thoughts. Also...it cost much less to go in Theo Chat and piss them off with my questions than it would to piss off my family which is full of ministers, missionarys and submissive women. So, that's why I go to theo chat and attempt to reason with the warriors. Pure selfishness...How about you? Why do you go to Theo Chat? - 14:56:55 on 12 Oct 97 GMT

Dornen:TOFF........... I am sorry to see Australians show the hubris of a Mississippi Baptist, but I guess the disease of Christianity has infected the "down unders" as virulently as here in America...... the New Testament teaches that ONLY Christians have a ticket to heaven, and everyone else is going to hell..... I am not surprised that you, as well as millions of other so-called Christians, don't know a whole hell of a lot about your demented Bible..............."there is one God and one mediator between God and man, Christ Jesus"....... 1 Timothy 2:5 - 14:57:44 on 12 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:DORNEN- I happy to see you returned, Good Morning! ABATSAPETER?????- Is this Peter or a new poster? JOETTE- Yes! I'm also tired of hearing how the xtians are the only groups giving to charity! Our local community club gives to charity all the time and there isn't even a hint of religion behind it! Manitoba Lotteries gives to charity BIG TIME, and no religion behind that either. I'll think of more as the day wears on. There is rarely a gift given without the hope of something in return. Xtianity is very expectant. Out with their gift goes their silly bibles and a hope that they will gain more converts. - 15:15:58 on 12 Oct 97 GMT

Peter:--assuming its "mccoy"--Good question. I enjoy debating this topic--and even occaisionally I encounter someone in there who has even a shred of intelligence. But their arguments break down as well, and they begin to defend them within the realm of irrationality. I firmly believe Christian beliefs--or any deistic "faith based" belief to be harmful to society as a whole--which you did indicate earlier today. Even if I can get even the tiniest bug into the ear of just one zealot--I feel I am doing my part in making the world a better place. I at times even point out the hostility, and viciousness they display when they begin to feel the integrity and validity of their beliefs are slowly being shown to be fallacious. They use force, hostility and threats as their defence, and sooner or later, the vulnerability of their dogma will not withstand reasonable, yet rigorous scrutiny. I even had "jo" say to me yesterday, as an example, that sice I was on "their turf" rules such as "the burden of proof lying with those who make the claim" do not apply. - 15:16:58 on 12 Oct 97 GMT

Dornen:~~~ABATSAPETER.... You might be interested in one of the best self-help books for recovering Fundamentalists written...... "Leaving the Fold: A Guide for Former Fundamentalists and Others Leaving Their Religion," ...Marlene Winell, Ph.D., New Harbinger Publications, 1993, $12.95). .....You will be glad you did. - 15:17:46 on 12 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:QUESTION?????/ What is theo chat? - 15:18:06 on 12 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:TOFF- If your still around, how are you xtians coping with the euthanasia law? - 15:22:43 on 12 Oct 97 GMT

Peter:--mccoy--Also, this fear of "being zapped" is quite common with those who cannot ignore the unreasonableness of believing in God, and feel they have no choice, regardless of the impending doom which is threatened if they do, to show intellectual integrity and say "Dammit--I just cannot find any valid reason to believe!". Are you at all familiar with "Pascal's Wager?" - 15:25:23 on 12 Oct 97 GMT

Dornen:.......Marlene......... Good morning!.... Your comments were right on target!.... I look at the creators of our best poetry, song, literature, philosophy, art, and technology were and are balanced non-believers, or at least, non-Christians!..... As a "Born-Again" Atheist, my wife and I, as do millions of non-believers, volunteer in many local community activities, and do so without trying to beat others into religous submission! - 15:28:53 on 12 Oct 97 GMT

Peter:---DORNEN--I have heard of this book, but it's not me that is in need of it at this point--it's "mccoy" - 15:29:46 on 12 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:PETER- To avoid confusion, is Abatspeter, maccoy? - 15:37:27 on 12 Oct 97 GMT

PETER-----:---And folks, for the record, on that "other" chat room I am "Abatsabird, or Pi=3" ( or any other handle which implies biblical error)--and in here I am Peter. I am no other variation or combination of those names--here or anywhere else. I will refer to you by the handle you use, and I feel it is not unreasonable for me to have this respect reciprocated. - 15:40:34 on 12 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:DORNEN- I'm a life-long atheist from an non-fundie xtian family. The rule of thumb was that you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. Were you and your wife fundie xtians and what events caused you become unbelievers? - 15:41:05 on 12 Oct 97 GMT

--MARLENE--I am "Abatsabird" on the WWW christian chat, mccoy is another individual who posts in both rooms as well--under the same name in each. - 15:44:17 on 12 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:PETER- OHHHHH! I finally understand. So this is "maccoy" from the other chat posting to you. Got it! I was rather confusing! - 15:44:22 on 12 Oct 97 GMT

Peter:--MARLENE--Now that I left my own name off that last post, you must now be thoroughly confused! Peter is Abatsabird. mccoy is mccoy. My apologies. - 15:46:56 on 12 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:MACCOY- You really don't need to go to Theo Chat to cause "HOLY ANGER" in xtians, it's all right here! - 15:47:17 on 12 Oct 97 GMT

Rob:ALL: Would the real McCoy please step forward...MARLENE: I think the xtians are trying to kill the euthanasia law off, but don't quote me on that. - 16:05:06 on 12 Oct 97 GMT

Rob:MARLENE/JOETTE: I know for a fact atheists do work for charity. How? Cos' I get off my arse and help at a youth homeless centre twice a week. Maybe it's just a sign of my repressed christianity though? - 16:07:50 on 12 Oct 97 GMT

Peter:--DORNEN--"Hubris"? --Ohh that is a great word! - 16:08:40 on 12 Oct 97 GMT

Rob:TOFF: Now do you do anything for charity? Yes? Right, but can you say to have done so without bringing up the subject of christianity? I can put my hand on my heart and say I've never included my religious opinions as part of an aid package. - 16:13:06 on 12 Oct 97 GMT

ROB....... The Roman Catholic Church is bankrolling the anti-euthanasia law in Oregon, by forcing another vote next month..... The Catholics are using about $3,000,000 tax-free dollars of donations from Catholics who most likely do not approve of the Church's political, or social position!..... The Catholic church is terrified at the prospect of losing more and more power. About time to start taxing these churches. - 16:14:03 on 12 Oct 97 GMT

Geil Madl:~~~~~~TAX THE CHURCHES~~~~~~~~~! - 16:24:42 on 12 Oct 97 GMT

Rob:Church tax? Would that be payable in the christian tender we talked of yesterday? Tithing the congregation would take on a whole new meaning.. - 16:26:05 on 12 Oct 97 GMT

Rob:Speaking of which, I am off to have tea with the College Christian Union rep. Anyone got any questions (not too blunt as I don't want him spiking my biscuits)? - 16:28:11 on 12 Oct 97 GMT

. - 16:37:28 on 12 Oct 97 GMT

Peter:--Rob--A result of your repressed christianity? Do not think for one moment that this is the case. It is natural for people feel the need to help others, as they can envision themselves the unfortunate situations and the consequences, and to witness human misery is simply not pleasant. However, christians feel that their religion "taught them" this trait, since they all have been convinced they are evil by birth ( Original Sin ). Then, in an attempt to atone for this unproven "defect" which the Bible tells them they possess, they flaunt what they deem as some special trait that "Jesus" teaches them ( that everyone has anyway by nature ) but even take it a step forward, and place selfless service to others as one's reason to exist. They abnegate the "self" and then insist that service to others is one's moral justification for his own existence. It values self-sacrifice as the moral ideal--in other words: a zero. - 16:41:57 on 12 Oct 97 GMT

Bill...I Amway-the de-vine, :with my grape-tuitous and hypo-theists (hypothesis) a'post-ulations for the week. We just returned from my sisters' condo on the beach---in order to take my wife's brother to the airport---and I am sore from head to foot from body surfing in crashing waves. It's a tough life but somebody's got to do it! Sorta python-ic I think, to somehow rise to the occasion---and then crash! Of course it was a sad day yesterday to witness, in this beach sports bar (Hooter's), the Florida Gators (use to be #1 in college football) lose to LSU. I was hoping for a live viewing next weekend in Auburn, Alabama between two undefeated teams! But there's always T&A (go Joette go, I need you!) and beer to amelorite one's loss. So shall it be apples, oranges, or fruit-cock-tail? What side do you all want me to defend? One thing that comes to mind, since ROB the physicists is now back, is the question concerning, "Does the 'supernatural' exist as a part of our existence?" Can you give us your scientific observation as to the reality of "singularities" and there "supernatural" (beyond all natural laws) existence? - 17:22:10 on 12 Oct 97 GMT

Rob:PETER: I know! BILL: Haven't you heard? I am trying to change from physics to psychology and philosophy. As to the supernatural, it depends how you define nature. I would not limit nature to just our universe, so my singularities would not be supernatural. As for the reality of singularities, well black holes are (by definition) singularities, and we believe they can be (indirectly) observed. Whatever a singularity is, it would conform to some kind of nature or we would not expect them to have repeated characteristics. Was this what was said last time? - 18:06:54 on 12 Oct 97 GMT

Bill...:ROB, I have not fully read all the post as….there are sooo many!! Good luck on your new career. I'm not sure what you are referring to when you say that, "I would not limit nature to just our universe, so my singularities would not be supernatural."? I only know of just THIS universe, so I am only talking of nature in terms of THIS universe. Singularities are the ultimate "unknowables" that have gravitational forces that affect all the other "knowables" in the universe. They do play a roll in our existence and concerning "natural laws" these black hole singularities seem to be the reverse of the Big bang singularity, where all matter and natural laws collaspe instead of being created. This to me, whether we are talking about black hole singularities or the Big bang singularity, is a "supernatural" (absence of all natural laws) reality. Also I have read your writings with interest. It seems to me that the universe is self-creating, as Hawkings suggest, and has a purpose based on its natural laws and forces such as gravity. This deterministic unconscious purpose is to cause organization, which works against entropy (disorder). So the question becomes, do we as humans have a purpose? You seem to suggest that we don't but, having evolved into consciously aware life forms that have moved beyond the deterministic human ID nature and exhibit some degree of "freewill" (ego and superego), do we not have a purpose if we want a purpose? Are we not our own Gods? - 19:41:42 on 12 Oct 97 GMT

Joette:-->BILL..remember awhile back when I quoted another scientist other than Hawking that said that singularities can be observed, so how can they be supernatural. Why dredge up this old argument again? - 21:39:42 on 12 Oct 97 GMT

Bill...:JOETTE, How have you been? Staying out of trouble? The secondary effects can be observed (ie gravity) but the mathematics tends towards infinities when very close to a singularity. Within the singularity is what I am referring to when I say that, "all natural laws break down" and from within they become "supernatural." I think the argument is still relevant because there is more to existence than that which is governed by natural laws. And hopefully Rob can lend his expertise on this subject, as I think he missed the last exchange on this subject. So Joette, are you not your own God, to the extent I mentioned above? - 22:30:24 on 12 Oct 97 GMT

Rob:BILL: Sorry about that, I was out meeting all the new freshers. When I talk about not just this universe being natural, I mean that the universe could exist in a higher order dimension, without necessarily having to have physics break down. We just might be seeing the part of physics that manifests itself in our universe, which is just a (for example -limiting case- ) of the physics that governs outside the universe. Also, just because something is self-creating (which I might argue is no different to a quantum fluctuation) and has natural laws, it does not imply purpose. I also ommited to mention that the purpose I referred to was objective purpose. - 22:56:38 on 12 Oct 97 GMT

Rob:JOETTE: I suppose the question is, if something is supernatural, can it interact with this universe? I don't particularly like the word supernatural, as I depends upon how much we know. I daresay elecricity was supernatural to those who didn't understand it, but Bill, by implying that they are ultimately supernatural implies that we also have an absolute knowledge of physics. - 23:01:23 on 12 Oct 97 GMT

Rob:BILL: BTW, my expertise is probably none more than the general science reading you have done, as 1st year physics does not involve any singularities whatsoever (spare some primitive mathematical funcions). - 23:05:41 on 12 Oct 97 GMT

Joette:-->ROB..I will have to go back and dust off my science books because I no very little of what you and Bill are engaging in. When I read it, I understand it, but quickly forget it because it is not part of my natural psyche, which is what I depend on foremost. While you were away (and being missed), I did some reading and actually sounded pseudo-intelligent in these matters. When I hear the word supernatural, I only picture ghosts, goblins and poltergeists. - 23:35:45 on 12 Oct 97 GMT

Joette :--->BILL..science aside..have you jumped on the bandwagon to root for the Marlins? - 23:37:32 on 12 Oct 97 GMT

Joette:-->BIL..to respond to your question, my god today is the pitcher of the Cleveland Indians (Jerrad Wright) and I am praying hard that he does well! - 23:40:15 on 12 Oct 97 GMT

Rob:JOETTE: Sorry! I've was so busy writing you an e-mail, I forgot to come back! Just say which bits you don't understand, and I will try my best to say whatever I can to explain. Remember, it's up to the person spouting all the crap to explain what they mean. - 23:58:24 on 12 Oct 97 GMT

. - 23:58:32 on 12 Oct 97 GMT

Dornen:Have the physicists found one of the 15,000 gods?....... If so, which one!....... - 0:02:29 on 13 Oct 97 GMT

Rob:Dornen: Which 15,000 gods might they be? And if they haven't found them all, how do they know there is 15,000 of them? - 0:04:37 on 13 Oct 97 GMT

Dornen:~~Maybe Prometheus or Zeus was spotted sweeping across the outer galaxies?~~..... Yahwey was seen gleefully drowning the population of some other planet perhaps? - 0:05:10 on 13 Oct 97 GMT

Rob:Dornen: Don't you know? Gods are only interested in humans. Everything else is just decor. - 0:07:15 on 13 Oct 97 GMT

Dornen:Rob.... My mistake...... not 15,000 but 25,000..... all of them have left their mark in our literature, song, poety, music, and carvings which pollute every square mile of the planet!...... that's how they get counted!...... - 0:07:36 on 13 Oct 97 GMT

Rob:This universe ain't big enough for the 25,000 of us. You better alls be out by sunrise. - 0:09:09 on 13 Oct 97 GMT

Dornen:Gods, gods - - we got gods!...... we got Greek gods, and Titan gods, and Egyptian, Assyrian, and Persian gods, not to mention Celtic, Irish, Welsh and Norse gods. And Godesses too: we got Phoenician godesses, Roman godesses, and even Greek goddesses. We got the Greek gods: such as Zan, Ares, Eros, Zeus, Chaos, Comus, Hades, Mymen, Momus, and Apollo. We got Helios, Hermes Hypnos, Poseidon, or Oceanus, or any one of 50 other gods. - 0:09:36 on 13 Oct 97 GMT

Dornen:We got Greek goddess' such as Ara, Eos Nox, Clio, Dike, Hera, Nike, and a whole bunch more. Pick a god!...... there are enough to go around!..... big ones, short ones, fat ones, and horny ones!.. Tall ones, mean ones, and wimpy ones!.... lots of 'em! ~~We got Titan gods and goddesses: Zeus, Atlas Cronus Oceanus, and my favorite, Prometheus. We have Dione, Phoebe, Rhea, and more! We have some Roman gods, Dis, Sol, Amor, Jove, Mars, Cupid, Janus, Lares, Liber, Pluto, Bacchus. And godesses too! Pax, Juno, Luna, Nona, Ceres, Diana, Fides, Pales, Terra, Venus, Vesta and more! - 0:10:18 on 13 Oct 97 GMT

Dornen:.....ROB... do you want all the rest? - 0:10:54 on 13 Oct 97 GMT

Rob:Dornen: Could I have two Zeus's and a Prometheus please? Oh go on then, I'll have an Atlas too (we're expecting guests). - 0:12:52 on 13 Oct 97 GMT

Dornen:Want a god or goddess with a better disposition that the Hebrew god Yahweh? How about: Ra, ...Min, Seb, Set, Tum, Amen, Aten, Seth, Ammon, Horus, Osiris and any one of 40 other Egyptian gods. Goddesses? We got them too!...... Ma, Mut, Nut, Bast, Buto, Isis, and Sphinx. Not enough? How about a Celtic, Irish, British, or Welsh god or a Gaul god? such as: Ler, Lug, Beli, Gwyn, Angus, Dylan, Mider, Camulus, or Goddesses such as Ana, Don, Dana, Epona, or Brigit. - 0:14:01 on 13 Oct 97 GMT

Dornen:~~~Maybe a Norse-Teutonic god perhaps? such as Ear, Lok, Zio, Loke, Odin, Thor, Vans, Donar, Wotan, Balder, or maybe a goddess such as Hel, Ran, Sif, Erda, Norn, Saga, Frigg, or Skuld? Or even the gods Zu, Bel, Sin, Utu, Adda Baal, Nabu, Nego, Dagan, Mazda, Samas, Tammuz, and a cast of hundreds more! - 0:14:42 on 13 Oct 97 GMT

Dornen:More gods include the Hindu or Vedic gods and goddesses such as: Ka, Akal, Civa, Kali, Kama, Rama, Siva, Soma, Vasu, Yama, Marut, Mitra, Shiva, Vishnu, or Devi, Vac, Vach, or Usas. And miscellaneous gods such as: Yehweh, Jehovah, Elohim, Joss, Kane, Maui, and Tane We have specialty gods such as: Chief gods, Creator gods, Mother goddesses, we got gods of Sun, Light, Fire, and Sky, and gods of the Earth, of Fertility, of the Woods, of Hunting and gods of Nature. - 0:15:15 on 13 Oct 97 GMT

Dornen:And gods of the Underworld, of Death, Sleep, Night, Magic, and of the Moon. And gods of Faith, Hope, Fate, Home, and Happiness, and of course, of Sex. We have gods and goddesses of Medicine, Arts, Science, Wisdom, War, Discord, Vengeance, and of Evil. We have gods of the Sea, Season, Wind, and of Weather. And gods of Beauty, Love, Youth, Joy, Marriage, and Birth, not to mention the gods of Justice, of Peace, of the Law, and of Truth. Our current god is just one of many other gods! - 0:16:05 on 13 Oct 97 GMT

Rob:Dornen: I don't suppose I could have a refund on this Yaweh I bought the other week? I thought an omnipresent god would be nice, but I just haven't got the space. - 0:16:24 on 13 Oct 97 GMT

Dornen:Whew...... that tuckered me out!...... - 0:18:03 on 13 Oct 97 GMT

Dornen:ROB.... If you compare many of these gods with the current one, Yahweh, It is easy to see that Yahweh is a sick, demented, and delusional god with low self-esteem, who wants a whole bunch of boot-licking boobs licking his boots and finds his greatest comfort in the Lemming-like population of all those screwy Christians polluting our planet!..... - 0:21:34 on 13 Oct 97 GMT

. - 0:27:16 on 13 Oct 97 GMT

Peter:--DORNEN---Don't forget Gichi Manitou, of the North American natives!!! - 0:32:20 on 13 Oct 97 GMT

Rob:Dornen: Yaweh? Last thing I heard he was old stock. Everyone now wants one of these Mark II, fuel injection Allahs with power steering - 0:36:36 on 13 Oct 97 GMT

Rob:Goodnight! - 0:37:24 on 13 Oct 97 GMT

. - 0:48:32 on 13 Oct 97 GMT

Bill..:JOETTE, Yes I am pulling for the Marlins and my God is not a pitcher from the Cleveland Indians (Jerrad Wright), but rather a pitcher of BEER, I think! Down here the beer enhances our main interest which is in football. Back to your post, I do remember your arguments concerning singularities based on the book, "The Whole Shebang" by Timothy Ferris and I have record of it. Unlike most of classical physics, "Black Holes" were first theorized by mathematics and then later observed. You ask, "If certain aspects of singularities can be OBSERVED, how can they be supernatural?" To refresh your memory I answered you by saying, "In the case of a black hole, the 'singularity' exists within and the observed particles don't come from within the black hole but from the 'empty' space just outside the black hole's event horizon (boundary of a black hole and a point at which light can't escape). This positive energy of outgoing radiation would be balanced by a flow of negative energy particles into the black hole. This flow of negative energy into a black hole subsequently reduces its mass (and event horizon) and it evaporates slowly." You never responded to this post? By your own words, from your own book, you said "The big bang theory holds that the universe began in a SINGULARITY - a state of infinite curvature of spacetime. In a singularity, all places and times are the same. Hence the big bang did not take place in a preexisting space; all space was embroiled in the big bang. Nor did the big bang happen in a remote location: It happened right where we are, and everywhere else. All places that exist today were originally in the same place. Nor was it an explosion, as we usually think of explosions, since things did not fly out into space but remained where they were, while the surrounding space expanded." I totally agreed with this post of yours, and if you agree that the Big bang singularity is a supernatural (not meaning ghosts or goblins, but beyond all natural laws) state of existence, then that supernatural state of existence is "here-and-now" by your very own words and quotes, right? - 1:03:45 on 13 Oct 97 GMT

Bill..:ROB, Applying Occam's razor and the "principles of parsimony", I tend to stay within that which has the simplest explanation and that which can be observed. This would severely limit the idea of "multiple universes" or "multiple physical laws" within a universe. When you say something could exist, it becomes conjecture---no different than positing a personal God. Without the universes deterministic intent to self-create and to organized, aren't we left with the "multiple universe" theory and out of billions of potential universes out there ours, by the law of averages, just happened to organize. Applying Occam's razor, how can we in good atheists conscience argue a theory that we can't observe? Beyond the determinism of micro evolution, are we not our own God's on a higher level of ego and superego and do we not posses the "freewill" to give our lives "purpose?" - 1:04:19 on 13 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:PETER- Let's NOT forget HIM!! I doubt he is very predictable though. For the last few days it's been warm and rainy. Lots of electrical storms! Now, in a matter of only six damn hours, it's going to snow! His name-sake province is an aboriginal hell! Maybe the Cree could borrow a milder, warmer god? - 1:31:22 on 13 Oct 97 GMT

Dornen:? - 3:32:01 on 13 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:YES DORNEN???? - 3:36:57 on 13 Oct 97 GMT

Testing, 1,2,3,4, testing..... (puff, puff, puff) testing!..... - 4:44:19 on 13 Oct 97 GMT

Dornen:Testing, 1,2,3,4, testing..... (puff, puff, puff) testing!..... - 4:44:28 on 13 Oct 97 GMT

Melissa:I was just watching my local news station and realized, AGAIN, how much god I hear about and read about in the local media -- none of it's objective either, they always say things like "we'll pray for her/him/it" and such. And, well, I was wondering -- does the local media in your (all of you) neck of the woods take such an active role in the publicity of the religion? Arizona's media generally sucks -- no good news or radio stations, and no good objective newspapers. Are you guys more fortunate than I? - 5:25:28 on 13 Oct 97 GMT

Melissa:BILL: Are you still persisting in your freudian illogic? Psychoanalysis is psuedoscience. There is no such thing as freewill anymore. The complexity of our nervous system produces this thing called consciousness. It is an illusion which makes us think we have control over our lives. It also makes some people think there is something more going on inside them than your runofthemill biological rigmarole. Like a soul maybe. And this thing called consciousness makes it difficult for us to comprehend unconsciousness -- it seems an eternal type thing, even though we don't remember anything before the "beginning", how can we ever STOP remembering? it's too discomforting to think about. Your "ego" is, therefore, a figment of mankind's imagination -- with your "superego" forming an even more complex branching of the web we weave round one another . . . Or not. - 5:44:30 on 13 Oct 97 GMT

Rob:BILL: Good morning. I'm not sure where the multiple universes came in, (that's more a quantum thing). Neither did I say multiple physics laws. One set of laws -just maybe we have not delved deep enough yet. I hardly think we can go about callimg singularities supernatural when we don't know all the laws to explain everything (by your definition- natural) inside our universe. Particularly when there is so much (exuse the pun) uncertainty in quantum mechanics/ superstring theory. Another twist- you must have read about Hawking's idea of complex time making the singularity not quite such an impasse? And as for determinism, I think it's a bit wishy washy to start introducing words like "intent" -it seems like we are going backwards when we start attributing animal characteristics to something we have no reason to believe is a form of life. Wasn't that how god came about in the first place? As for egos, I think I prefer Melissa's interpretation. - 8:29:05 on 13 Oct 97 GMT

IAN>.>.>...:"And he (Elisha) went up from thence into Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; Go up, thou bald head. And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them." - Kings 2:23:24 - 11:58:16 on 13 Oct 97 GMT

IAN>.>.>...:The previous was entitles "Suffer The Children" The following is "Grand Opera":-"Wherefore my bowels shall sound like an harp for Moab, and mine inward parts for Kirharesh." - Isiah 16:11 - 12:01:58 on 13 Oct 97 GMT

Dornen:~~ IAN ........... About 99.999% (give or take a 0.0000009% error) would deny that your postings are in the Bible, and go into shock when they find those quotes!..... They never recover from the shock!..... It seems such a cruel twist, that in spite of our evolutionary developement, underneath the great genius of our species lies a persistent primitive superstitious need for gods and magical-thinking. Maybe someday we will find the gene which produces the Baptists and pope types and can correct that defect!..... - 12:31:52 on 13 Oct 97 GMT

Bill...:DORNEN, Welcome! I agree that personal God's are a creation of man's ego and secondary intelligence and that's why we have sooooo many! Since you are new here, to see old post just check "show old," and click on "ADD." Then change the "show=30" to a higher number (30 = number of posts). - 12:54:54 on 13 Oct 97 GMT

Bill...:ROB, Morning! The multiple universe idea came about when you suggested that there may be other laws relating to different parts of our universe. This is indeed a possibility, but so is a personal God. I was trying to only deal with that which we know here-and-now. True we don't know all the laws that control the universe, but all the laws we do know of are related to in terms of mathematics and physics. Mathematics is the basis of, and the explanation of, the "natural world" as we know it. We can use mathematics to calculate and project all the way back to and very near singularities, but to actually go into the singularity would cause the breakdown of mathematics, as well as the natural world as we know it, as all things gravitate (pun intended) into infinities. So yes the "natural" world of existence to me is that which is explained in terms of mathematics, and the "supernatural" world of existence is that which is beyond mathematical explanation. If you don't like words like "intent" then I will stay with "determined" when referring to the universe's organizational reality. So do you believe that there presently exist a "supernatural" existence, here and now, as I have defined above and also in my post to Joette? - 12:55:37 on 13 Oct 97 GMT

Bill...:MELLISSA, I agree that things like ego and superego are apart of our "secondary intelligence" as are various ego concepts like "personal Gods" or "religions." Our deterministic "primary intelligence" (ID if you will) is directly connected to that of the entire universe and deals in survival and reproduction, which is beyond our control. We can't choose to "not breath" for example. I don't think we disagree on this, right? How can you deny "consciousness," and refer to it as an illusion, when it must have evolved from our "primary intelligence" to increase our survival capability? Even a dog has consciousness, but very little memory, and thus practically no concept of "time." Without memory and this concept of "time" we cannot distinguish ourselves from the rest of nature and therefore we have no "ego's." And why should we STOP remembering, when this ability alone allows us to be more productive and calculating and thus increases our ability to survive? I never choose to be conscious, but I am, and I will use it to the greatest extent possible. To deny consciousness is to deny "mind," in its entirety, and I think Ann Rand would have a problem with that. Do you not have the "will" to perform and be productive, and conversely the "will" to just "stay in bed all day?" Limited "freewill" IS a reality of higher intelligent life forms, and to deny this would be to deny one's mind, right? And now I am going back to bed, ha! - 12:56:08 on 13 Oct 97 GMT

IAN>.>.>...: The Product Placement Bible Sample Advertisements Genesis 3:22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the Mentos, and eat, and become fresh with me.... - 13:04:04 on 13 Oct 97 GMT

i:. - 13:33:34 on 13 Oct 97 GMT

Joette:-->MELISSA..our media is somewhat more liberal than yours, in that we are free to contribute editorials to our local newspaper that argue the existence of god etc. However, I too have been very conscious of the references to religion that come from everywhere. Our national olympic team is trying to raise money, and they have a cutesy song that plays during the commercials, and even there they say "may heaven bless" and it annoys to me to the point where they shan't see a red cent from my pocket. - 13:38:05 on 13 Oct 97 GMT

Peter:---BILL----....and Miss Rand will certainly have a problem with how you spell her first name. It is AYN. - 13:41:20 on 13 Oct 97 GMT

Rob:BILL: I feel I should clarify- I didn't mean there were different laws of physics elsewhere in the universe, what I said was that what we observe as physical laws in this universe may only be part of a set of physical laws which govern what lies outside of the univese (outside in the higher order dimensional sense). I would disagree mathematics breaks down in singularities. You can do mathematics with infinities, and besides, you have missed the point about complex time. Also, using gravity purely as a cause of breakdown for physics is not a safe practice. At the very small scales involved we can not say gravity behaves as on the large scale (i.e perhaps to to QM or Strings), much like classical mechanincs doesn't work at very high speeds. So in this light, I do not personally believe (or think I have sufficient reason to believe) that there is a supernatural existence present. - 14:31:17 on 13 Oct 97 GMT

Carl:JOETTE: you had the last repsonse to media matters and religion, but this response concerns that topic. While watching the 10\12-60 minutes show the conclusion appealed favorably to one of my pet peeves, religion. A.Rooney was kicking at the PK thing, references to a diety by politicians, athletes in end zones, and other such examples. He wondered why pray, does not a god know all, so why 'tell' god anything. It was refreshing to hear on national tv that particular kind of commentary. I'll have to stay tuned to hear what kind of, i call ahead o'time, nitwit response that program has to field. - 14:32:28 on 13 Oct 97 GMT

Steven:ANY, it appears that TOFF tucked his tail and ran. I sure am upset that I didn't get a parting shot in before he left. damn damn damn - 14:33:41 on 13 Oct 97 GMT

Steven:I kinda like this DORNENS spunk. He and I need to get together and burn a church or to. JOETTE and MARLENE can bring the hot dogs and marshmello's - 14:35:16 on 13 Oct 97 GMT

Bill..:PETER, Sorry for my spelling errors. I guess I'm not the authority here on Rand! I hope she's not rolling in her grave as I am a mere human of sorts! - 14:51:05 on 13 Oct 97 GMT

Bill...:JOY-ETTE, Do you like our Florida Darlings? I did get to see them beat the Pirates in Pittsburgh this year. Oh yea, I already told you that!! Just my Alzheimer's kicking in for a moment or is my memory just an illusion? I'm sooo confused but hey, maybe I should have been a duck, and then I could wake up in a "new world" everyday. Ignorance is bliss you know! In reading some of the past post (i.e. your financial, professional, success in life), and in consideration of Rob's essay hypothesizing "no purpose" in life, do you feel the same as Rob? Is financial, personal, and professional success enough for intelligent and/or gifted humans? I personally identify with your successes in all those areas (including family) and may even quit my day job next year way short of even early retirement, despite the fact I still have my youngest kid in college and many other financial obligations. I can tell you that I have really enjoyed (and still do) life to the fullest, but I still feel that sensual gratification, survival, and reproduction are not the total purpose of one's existence. I do not feel that my purpose is dictated externally though by some deity God, but rather feel that it is up to me to decide what that purpose is. Didn't nature really evolve us into our own personal consciously aware God's, and shouldn't we decide what that purpose and direction should be? I guess on of the reasons I am writing here, beyond just pure entertainment and skill development, is to help me to decide what I am going to do in the next phase of my life. I think I want some purpose or legacy of some sort. Don't you feel the same or are we just "Ducks?" - 14:53:26 on 13 Oct 97 GMT

Bill..:ROB, I guess I'm not familar with complex time, but I will get back to you later on the rest of your post as I have to go now. Bye! - 14:57:40 on 13 Oct 97 GMT

Carl:BILL: your position that animals do not have memory, would that include my dog? And, o'course you were never introduced to Humper. - 15:08:21 on 13 Oct 97 GMT

Peter:---CARL---That is interesting what you said about praying, and even when I was religious, I did have a problem with it, in the way that Andy Rooney alluded. Take for example a dying relative surrounded by loved ones praying for him to live. BY doing so, the assumption is made that (1) God wasn't really aware of the fact that the person was dying and his relatives were concerned and they are bringing it to his attention--but isn't he omniscient? ( 2 ) God is listening intently to their prayers and may or may not "save" this person depending on how many people want him to be saved, and what reasons are given so he should be revived, and the all around intensity of boot-licking and ass-kissing and general grovelling. Does God then have certain standard as to how much/intensely people pray, in order to somehow gerry-mand natural laws, in such a way that it would be effective, AND undetectible by scientific scrutiny? However, the ones doing the praying have placed themselves in a win-win situation if they should even doubt for a moment there is a God. If the person lives, they will say he was saved by their prayers to God. If he dies they will all say " Oh, that was the will of the Lord, and he wanted him to go to heaven" - 15:13:40 on 13 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:FIRSTLY MELISSA- You've worded everything just perfectly. I couldn't agree more! Where have you been girl?! ROB- I've been doing my homework and am following you on this singularity thing. I didn't get to sleep until 3:00 AM. I'm rather obsessed with understanding all this now. So far I understand space-time, event and a few other physical definitions. It's going to take a while! I am glad that this subject is now being dealt with here. This is a subject that seems to ALWAYS come up and many of us are not educated in that field. The believers(who know a bit about it, not like Farnes who'd "brother" was the expert) that claim all these fantasic things normally don't get the proper argument here. I can only hope this will educate the rest of us on this subject so we can argue more effectively in the future with believers claiming that physics proves their god. - 15:37:25 on 13 Oct 97 GMT

Carl:PETER: once before, I used that term 'win win' in a question to a wandering mystic, who in happy relief said "thats the power of the lord!" I was younger and tougher then so i him to get f---ed. back then however, i figgered that fixed anything. - 15:48:22 on 13 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:CARL, MELISSA and JOETTE- Yes, ole Andy is an atheist! One of the few on TV. We could use many more Andy's! I agree with Joette that the newspaper here doesn't actually promote religion BUT it doesn't question it either! I was watching TV last night and the only station that had anything on that was interesting "for me"(I knows you won't agree Joette, the other station had the ball game) was CBS. I suffered through "Touched By an Angel". The show was about run-away teens and how "god" gave them the hope that they were missing. Those that didn't have hope died as a result of the danger of the streets and those that accepted god lived and either grew up to have a promising career or went home to thier families. Hope in god, is hope in nothing! How about hope in themselves? What a stupid message! This particular show takes one of the most emotional issues and sells their gos with it. Pisses me off! Following that was the CBS movie in which a pilot named "Lucky" was able to use his head to save his passengers. The palne he was flying was hit by another. He asked a child what he did and the child said he prayed. Lucky said that he "worked". There was nothing "lucky" about Lucky's success. Not only did he work instead of pray, the thought. In the end it was mentioned that the kid and Lucky were a team. Who's effort actually saved them? - 15:57:10 on 13 Oct 97 GMT

Dornen:~~Carl........ You probably helped the rest us more than you realize by telling your "wandering mystic" to get f-----d. Now if we could get Reuters, Newsweek and Time to tell that loonie pope to get f----d, maybe they would get the message!..... - 16:00:34 on 13 Oct 97 GMT

~~Come to think of it........ that's just what the pope needs!......... - 16:02:50 on 13 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene (Jets or Kraft?):STEVEN.It's a holiday here in Canada, thanksgiving day and I undestand it's Columbus day in the US. I do hope that the "coming out" of Columbus is still happening there in the US. He's no hero to me, he killed thousands in the name of his god! - 16:02:54 on 13 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:DORNEN- I think it is Richard Dawkins that has a theory that it's a "meme". - 16:04:42 on 13 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:PETER- Exactly! But how about the guy who was saved by god in the plane crash. God "saved" him but what about the 149 others that died? Why would he not save them all? - 16:08:36 on 13 Oct 97 GMT

Rob:BILL: Okay, I'll hopefully speak later. MARLENE: Glad you're interested. As I said though, I am no expert -just interested. PETER: Good point. Praying is something I think the next theist needs to explain to us. - 16:15:14 on 13 Oct 97 GMT

Peter:--MARLENE---Easy question to answer. That was the will of the Lord. Or maybe his prayers were the most intense and plentiful on the way down. Maybe he was the only one to actually say or think that one phrase that God was looking for, to which he would have saved anyone in this particular mishap. However, God has always known this was going to happen all along. Since he knew as far back in time to the infinite, he wouldn't have been able to alter anything, or else he would not be considered omniscient way back when. Ooops! But we have problem here. Isn't He supposed to be omnipotent too? Hmmmm? Now we REALLY have a problem here now!! He knows the future with infallible certainty--so he can't change it. So he can't be omnipotent. But if he CAN change the future, he couldn't be omniscient either. - 16:22:57 on 13 Oct 97 GMT

Rob:ALL: Ber-ber ber ber bu-ber berb bub. Two headers are better than one? - 16:23:34 on 13 Oct 97 GMT

Carl:of TOFF: it is unfortunate that individuals like that and mike opt to burn brain time on such drivel. Another good example of similar waste includes the pope. The guy is a whiz, but for whatever reason he and the others, they want control. A god jc etc.of their "faith", are clearly meaningless, but let a coupla'these individuals with wants o'anykind meet come together, well, of such formations we can say, that we have a here and now example of Dawkins'non-random principle. A real bonus for these individuals- like toff, mike and the pope are found in other individuals like amie, and sarge who won't take any living time to think about things like those passages the bible cook regularly posts,e.g., the bear story. Non-thinkers, as amie, sarge, etc., what are they good for, except to serve the needs of those wanting a control? - 16:44:46 on 13 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene ...am I getting this physics thing?:PETER- Then....is god....a singularity? I doubt! The basic laws don't break down when it comes to what it can do and can't do. - 16:58:01 on 13 Oct 97 GMT

Rob:MARLENE, JOETTE + BILL: Read Pages 209-214 of "In Search of Schrodinger's Kittens" By John Gribben (ISBN no 0-297-81519-9). This tells you what Hawking's complex time is, and how a singularity can be understood. The rest of the book's pretty good too. - 17:05:17 on 13 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:ROB- Ain't got the book! Is it too long of an explanation to post or is it maybe posted somewhere on the net?? - 17:10:39 on 13 Oct 97 GMT

Joette:-->TO ALL..I just heard on the news that good old country boy John Denver was killed in an airplane crash. I guess his "thanking god" in many of his songs still didn't stand him good stead with the "big guy". - 17:11:54 on 13 Oct 97 GMT

Joette:--->CARL...I wish I had seen that portion of 60 Minutes. I normally change the channel when I know Andy Rooney is about to give his schpiel from whatever else I am watching, but alas, the baseball was just too good to miss last night (right, Adam?). I once saw an hour long interview with him where he spent much time talking about his lack of belief in a god and it was refreshing. He shocked many people with this revelation about himself, but it was about time someone finally came out of the closet in public. It gives up poor hopeless atheists some of that elusive hope that Toff insists we lack. - 17:16:11 on 13 Oct 97 GMT

Rob:MARLENE: Haven't you got a library?! If I have time later I might be able to pick out the saliencies for you, it's just there is a lot of work (real unfortunately, not complex) due in tommorow. - 17:17:45 on 13 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:ROB- Thanks! Nope, no library(that would have this book) for at least 50 miles from here. Remember, I live in the bush. - 17:26:20 on 13 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- It sounds like Adam will not be pleased with the outcome of the game! - 17:27:54 on 13 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:JOETTE- As Peter pointed out, maybe poor John didn't know the proper phrase to save himself. - 17:30:15 on 13 Oct 97 GMT

Carl:JOETTE: Thoughtless individuals as toff, accept what they were "told" about hope as it can mean in only a closed system. That such a word has meaning nonetheless outside that system is lost, it cannot have meaning, to their thinking process as "it" is contained by that self-imposed system. These sad individuals are easily pleased by such simplicity, like the one who queried of the non-religious short lived matter, however, he did not reply to my examples of longevity. An assertion i've posted before, i repeat- they choose to think that they exist in a nut-shell. - 17:37:47 on 13 Oct 97 GMT

Peter:--MARLENE--The Xtians have a difficult time understanding--or refuse to admit- that when claim something is said to exist ( in their case God ) the concept of existing must meet some minimal parameters which they refuse to recognize, rendering their claim as meaningless, and identical to that of non existence until they recognize those boundaries. They just think they can say, "Well God can do anything, he knows everything, and is not bound by any rules" etc. etc. They want their cake and eat it too. - 17:40:34 on 13 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes:Hi everyone! Hi Joette, Marlene, Rob and Peter. Peter: if a parameter fell in the woods and no one was around to hear it. . .? What are these "minimal parameters" of which you speak? - 18:56:45 on 13 Oct 97 GMT

Carl:MARLENE: 50 mi.from a library? The last time I was in such setting was the summer just before going to Berkeley. No library, - 19:03:29 on 13 Oct 97 GMT

Carl:FARNES: Your pawn move, is it middle board or rooklike? It looks like your position is physical or still yet, your interest might be a psychological venue. Please say more... - 19:28:57 on 13 Oct 97 GMT

Rob:ALL: Profuse apologies for cloggin up your page, but I have got 4 months worth of discussion in hand. MARLENE: I shall say zis only vonce... "In the 1980s, Hawking returned to the puzzle of the origin of the universe, and, with others, attempted to find a way to describe the universe in a model which incorporates the ideas of quantum mechanics, as well as those of the general theory of relativity. This is the work which leads many cosmologists to feel that some variation on the `many-worlds` of `many-histories` idea is required, because there is no way an observer can be `outside` the universe to collapse its wave function from a superposition of states into a unique history. But there is another intriguing feature of Hawking's approach, a new analogy which gives a different perspective on the big bang. I (The Author) said before that there is an important difference in the way time and space are treated by the equations of relativity (both the special and general theories). Time appears in the equations with a minus sign in front of it. But this is not quite the whole story, because those equations also deal, like Pythagoras' famous theorem about right-angled triangles, in `squares`. So the parameters that represent spatial displacements in Einstein's equations are squares (x^2, y^2, z^2). The parameter that represent temporal displacement, however, is represented by the negative square: -t^2. This is what prevents time from being treated in exactly the same way as space, because as we all learned in school you cannot take the square root of a negative number. Hawking pointed out that the problem of the singularity at the beginning of the universe- the `edge` of time- cann be resolved by taking on board an almost trivial mathematical device. Mathematicians know all about square roots of negative numbers. They invented the number `i` which is defined as the square root of minus one (so i x i = -1, similarly 3i x 3i = -9). Such `imaginary` numbers can be manipulated in the same way as ordinary numbers, and are an important part of many mathematical calculations. They provide a model for mathematicians to use in describing the undescribable, the world of square roots of negative numbers; and they operate by analogy with the way `real` numbers operate. Hawking's stroke of chutzpah was to suggest that our everyday understanding of time is wrong, and that a better model of the way the universe works is obtained by changing over to using measurements in what he calls imaginary time, i(t). As far as the mathematics is concerned, this is a trivial change to make. It has about as much significance as a change in the choice of projection a map-maker uses in providing us with a picture of the earth. For example the Mercator projection gives continents their correct shapes, but distorts relative areas. Peter's projection does the opposite, and because they are both projected on to a flat sheet of paper, neither is said to be more `correct`, they are just different. In a similar way mathematicians are free to choose many aspects of the coordinate systems they use in describing positions of events in space and time ... This change of model has in effect made time, as far as Einstein's equations are concerned, exactly the same as space. And it turns out that this modest mathematical change removes the singularity from the equations. The way we have to think of an expanding universe, says Hawking, is not in terms of a bubble of spacetime that appears out of a mathematical point (the singularity) and grows, but in terms of lines of latitude on the surface of a sphere which stays at constant size. A tiny circle drawn around the north pole of the sphere represents the universe when young - all of space is represented by the line that makes up the circle. Moving from the pole towards the equator represents the `flow` of time. Once past the equator, the `universe` starts to shrink again as successive latitude cicles get smaller, until they disappear at the south pole. But what happens at the poles themselves- the beginning and end of time? There is no `edge` to the sphere at these points, even though time is said to begin at the north pole. Because time has been put on the same mathematical footing as space, the analogy with the geography of the earth is perfect. At the North Pole of our planet, all directions are south, and there is no north -but there is no edge to the planet there. At the North Pole of Hawking's universe, all time directions are `the future`, and there is no direction of time corresponding to the `past` - but there is no edge of time there. The singularity problem does not arise... The universe is seen, on this picture as a completely self-contained package of spacetime and mass-energy, expanding out of nothing and contracting back to nothing." - 19:34:14 on 13 Oct 97 GMT

Rob:Hi Farnes. I would say more, but I think I might upset someone. - 19:40:40 on 13 Oct 97 GMT

Rob:Hey! Why has everyone gone so quiet? - 19:47:46 on 13 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:ROB- Thanks! Saved it and will read it as soon as I log off! FARNES- Would this be the one and he same sound as one hand clapping? CARL- Living here is the one true meaning of "far out"! - 19:48:05 on 13 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:ROB- Are you really worried about upsetting someone? Sheesh! No one is that insecure here, I think... - 19:52:57 on 13 Oct 97 GMT

Steven:MARLENE, hey thanksgiving is not a happy holiday for Native Americans. It would basically be like Jewish people throwing a party on the day the Nazi's started Aushwitz(sp). As to living in the bush, ahh what a dream. Instead I live in the bible belt which also happens to be the land of cheese. I think when Les Claypool was writing 'Sailing the seas of Cheese' he was writing about dallas, tx. Anyway who is the FARNES guy. - 19:53:07 on 13 Oct 97 GMT

Rob:MARLENE: No, but it gave me an excuse to rest my typing fingers for a minute. - 19:55:17 on 13 Oct 97 GMT

Peter:--FARNES----You haven't reached this stage with me, and we may or may not touch upon this area. Why don't we go back to that question you asked a couple days ago first, which was something along the lines of "Could God exist" or something along those lines. - 19:56:32 on 13 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:Hey STEVEN- You likely wouldn't want my opinion on who Farnes is or isn't. He'll reveal himself in all his glory shortly, I'm sure. It seems bible belts are holding up god's britches everywhere. Even though this area is not too densely populated, it's still a bible belt. Yes, it is nice to live out here. Our land borders on a provincial forest so the only neighbors are the bears, wolves and skunks. I hope the native Americans put an end to the celebration of Columbus day! - 20:02:38 on 13 Oct 97 GMT

Rob:MARLENE: Interesting? - 20:09:45 on 13 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:FARNES- Do we hear the sound of a falling star (meteorite) or do we observe it. If no one was observing at the time, something was, machines we have made to do so. If the tree fell in the woods and no one was around to hear it.....what? Go on. - 20:11:14 on 13 Oct 97 GMT

Steven:MARLENE, I do not believe that the holiday is observed any longer. When I was a child in school it was a holiday that we got off of school for. 'columbus sailed the ocean blue' and all that bullshit. Anyway, columbus was a greedy murderer. I don't believe that is what the teach are kids. Hell, when I was a kid the teachers made Cortez out to be this big hero. - 20:11:31 on 13 Oct 97 GMT

Carl:OTHERS: so this FARNES has been here before, intuition here, seems to have it that this party would like to instill herein some confusion? - 20:12:12 on 13 Oct 97 GMT

Steven:kids are taught. jeez - 20:12:58 on 13 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:ROB- Yes! So far. I better log off and read it more carefully. My mind can't run too many windows at one time. - 20:13:44 on 13 Oct 97 GMT

Rob:CARL: No, he's just having fun in his own little way. Scroll back a day or so,and you'll see what I mean. - 20:15:16 on 13 Oct 97 GMT

Steven:does FARNES = ADAM. or: export DISPLAY=adam:0.0 - 20:19:18 on 13 Oct 97 GMT

Steven:ROB, I was confused for a moment and thought you were CEDRIC - 20:20:12 on 13 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:STEVEN- Due to someone seeing the reality of the situation, I know that it is at least admitted that the European xtians were thugs. It's good to hear the day is no longer celebrated! CARL- Yes Farnes believes that his god exsists even though the evidence for his god's exsistence is nil. He clings to the possiblilty of it's exsistence which is .0001%. - 20:23:42 on 13 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:STEVEN- No, Farnes does not = Adam, not by a long shot. As for Cedric and Rob, I don't think so but then again I havn't thought too much about it, ROB? - 20:27:01 on 13 Oct 97 GMT

Steven:is FARNES a xtian? I thought we chased all the mystics off this site! - 20:30:16 on 13 Oct 97 GMT

Steven:MARLENE, I just metioned ROB=CEDRIC because of the huge posting. - 20:31:42 on 13 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes:Just checking in. . . will be back to reveal myself in all my glory @2am EST. - 20:35:28 on 13 Oct 97 GMT

--Farnes--That was 2 and a half hours ago. - 20:38:46 on 13 Oct 97 GMT

Rob, the anti-Cederic:STEVEN, MARLENE: I shall pretend that question was never asked. Unlike Cederic, you'll notice my posting doesn't include anyone who gives a shit about your welfare, what you do whilst you are alive or where you go when you die. You gotta be cruel to be kind >) - 20:41:49 on 13 Oct 97 GMT

Rob:Just to clarify, Cederic is not a real person. He is the tragic outcome of an experiment involving a PC, a bible and a scanner. May God rest his soul, and our patients O{:o> - 20:48:35 on 13 Oct 97 GMT

Steven:ROB, just jokeing, I hope the post wan't to offensive. - 20:48:41 on 13 Oct 97 GMT

Rob:STEVE: No hard feelings ;) - 20:50:35 on 13 Oct 97 GMT

Steven:I have now lost all ability to spell or write correctly. It is enough to drive ya crazy. - 20:59:12 on 13 Oct 97 GMT

Steven:I guess we need a good mystic to stir the old blood. Comeon TOFF, MIKE, SGTB, AMIE where are ya. - 21:01:11 on 13 Oct 97 GMT

Peter:---STEVE---Have no fear, Farnes is coming back ( so he says ) and he may possibly offer some opinions and thoughts to kick around for a while. - 21:19:08 on 13 Oct 97 GMT

Carl:MARLENE: so FARNES likes to rattle cages,on behalf o'some purported deity, that is such a waste. The only cure for his/her malady is between his/her ears, and not some diety or its mythical offspring. ROB, thanks but if this individual prefers mysticism to working out a real remedy, the nonsense he/she espouses, at any time, is as worthless as those myths and superstitions. - 21:22:01 on 13 Oct 97 GMT

Peter:---STEVE---Unfortunately though--it seems he won't return until 2AM EST--when those who live in North America have pretty well turned in for the night. I'll go to a Xtian chat and see if I can talk someone into trying to sell their wares in a forum where the bullshit detection has slightly more intensity than they are accustomed. - 21:24:12 on 13 Oct 97 GMT

Steven:PETER, there is a xtian chat room. Where oh where. Talk about a field day. If you know where it is leave a pointer so I can make a call on em'. - 21:32:21 on 13 Oct 97 GMT

Bill...:CARL, Read my post again. I said that dogs have "limited memory," as compared to ours. - 21:54:40 on 13 Oct 97 GMT

Joette:--->CARL..re what's between Farnes' ears...he hasn't revealed that yet; rather he has attempted to tell us what's in his pants. - 21:58:14 on 13 Oct 97 GMT

Bill..:ROB, Thanks for your interesting post. I am familiar with imaginary numbers and Hawkings' theory that the universe was self-creating and started from a bell curve beginning rather than a point source. This is similar to what you described I think. I had never heard of complex time before. Of course Hawkings also talks of the "ultimate unknowable" when discussing singularities. He even has a theory related to this, but I can't now remember. I'll look it up if you want. All the laws of nature, space/time, etc. either break down or are transformed into existence (depending on whether it's collapsing into a black hole or emerging from the Big bang singularity). Hawkings says, in reference to singularities, in his book Brief History of Time p. 148 (paperback), "All the known laws of science would break down at such a point." In other words, "circles of beginning or ending" are beyond natural laws and thus become supernatural IMO. I think we will just have to disagree on this point. Concerning your comments on gravity. If gravity did not work on a small scale, how could everything collapse, within a black hole, into a singularity? Gravity, the weakest of the four know forces in the universe, might not have ever been discovered if it were not for two things: 1-Its always positive. 2-It can span very large distances. In the first microseconds after the big bang, was gravity not the first force to emerge to begin organization? Will it not also be the last force that will be around when everything collapses and disappears into a black hole singularity? It will be the most complicated and last to formulize, I believe. Complex structures (atoms and molecules) only formed after some time and cooling when emerging from this infinite temperature and density big bang beginning. Doesn't it take the forces of gravity to then cause formation of hydrogen gas molecules into stars? Hawkings also makes references to God in many of his writings which I have had some trouble relating to BTW. - 22:00:49 on 13 Oct 97 GMT

PETER:STEVEN..(and all others) Have fun! - 22:01:51 on 13 Oct 97 GMT

Carl:BILL: i musta'missed the prefacing word, - 22:29:45 on 13 Oct 97 GMT

Carl:JOETTE: that party is nothing but a confused individual, that he\she prefers to be thoughtless does not mean they re brainless. Gads, some females here speak of death and the dead, of which they say "they are in a better place now." that kind o'talk is a good example of what I mean when i refer to them w/religion. That comment required no honest sincere thought, it was just a canned statement that enabled them to converse. Nothing serious nothing meaningful but the words were just something to say. PETER, those folks have talked themselves into a state of mystification, they are in a state of mind where nothing is real, except their scripture- written words, and how they "feel" when they use these words. The only other such illusionary word is love, except for certain benefits. - 23:00:31 on 13 Oct 97 GMT

Joette:-->CARL..good point you made about thoughtless as opposed to brainless. I will have to borrow that from you. - 0:00:11 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

Joette:-->GRANT..I lost your address, otherwise I would be e-mailing...where are you? - 0:01:23 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

Big Dick Gregrory:FARNES.... are you a Christian or other type of superstition type person?...... and if so why?...If not, welcome!........ - 2:16:20 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

Big Dick Gregory:My wife tells me that my "name" is NOT appropriate.... what, pray tell, does she mean!........ - 2:19:11 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

Big Dick Gregory:And how would she know the difference? - 2:20:45 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

Dornen:As I read the Christian message, my daughter, a Lesbian, is scheduled for stoning, by all the Pat Robertsons of the world...... who is next? - 2:32:26 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

Dornen:Maybe Pat Robertson will kill you because you are a Buddhist, or a Jew, pray tell. Or worse, a non-believer! - 2:34:52 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

RON...(I'm back and I choose "LIFE")...:Here is the URL to Atheist Nation magazine. Hey guys, I feel great! I can't describe the reason behind it but, I'm feeling much better. I missed you all and can't wait to get back into the thick of things. The divorce isn't over yet, it's close. And I can't wait. As my lawyer fondly tells me, "Fuck her". - 3:20:04 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

RON...crap, let's do that again...:I hope this works...(goober) - 3:21:06 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

Big Dick Gregory:RON.... OK..... Where is she!........... hickup!....... - 3:23:14 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

Rationalists and other people of higher intellect recognize that Christianity has a elaborate shell of superstition surrounding it. For example, most, if not all Christians believe that making the sign of the cross will protect him or her from harm or bring good fortune. .... Remember Michael Fay, the first American to be "caned" in Japan, making the sign of the cross at every photo opportunity?...... How embarrassing that was to every American, Christian or not! - 3:36:59 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

Dornen.:Previous by the very cute and sexy "Dornen" who can not remember to put his supid name on each posting!......Jezzzzzzzzzzz!........ - 3:38:26 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

"supid" is a Lithuanian scientific term for Stupid!........ - 3:39:40 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

"supid" is a Lithuanian scientific term for Stupid!........ - 3:39:44 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

Dornen....... :And, of course, the previous was by the incredibale "Dornen"...... whew!.......... - 3:40:52 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

Dornen:Moral rule # 69..... Don't drink a whole bunch of cheap wine before coming on the (hickup) internet!...... anyway, as I was saying,........... - 3:42:53 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

Dornen the Thick!:The Christian knows that the Devil’s malignant influence can be annulled by holding up a cross against him. A candle burning before an icon of the Virgin Mary will protect a house from evil. A rainbow, comet, or meteor is a special portent to warn mankind against sin. Sprinkling holy water at the start of any new project will assure the project’s success and protect it from calamities. - 3:43:49 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

Dornen the Horny!:Extreme Unction will assure a fair hearing at the gates of Heaven. Highways are spotted with shrines where you may stop to renew your "travel insurance" by dropping a few coins into a locked box. The more coins, the better the insurance. God (hickup) loves coins! gold ones best! - 3:46:01 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

Dornen the Deprived!:Christian superstitions include: .... Water on the head; .... wafers on the tongue; .... Ashes on the forehead; .... Wine and Bread in the Belly, and: .... how about all those items with magical powers, such as: .... Ciboriums, .... Censers, .... Rosaries, .... Crucifixes, .... Decorated spruce, .... Creches, .... Relics of Saints such as Bones, .... Knuckles, .... Teeth, .... and unbelievably, the tip of the penis from circumcised Christians!, .... Prayer wheels, .... blessings, .... votive candles, .... Praying shawls, .... Yarmulkes, .... Mezuzahs, Menorahs .... --- most of which require a few pennies, or more, to enhance their power! ....The more pennies, the more God is impressed! - 3:47:09 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

Dornen the Depraved!...... :~~In addition, God spills his special blessings on those who are given to: .... Kneeling, .... sitting, .... standing, .... genuflecting, .... have bowed heads, or closed eyes (closed for preachers, open for ushers when collecting money), .... with shoes on or shoes off, .... with head covered or head uncovered, .... wear fancy robes, or wear brightly colored vestments, .... have gold crucifixes hanging from: .... neck, or ears, or around waist, and who wear hair shirts, .... cut themselves, ..... mutilate themselves, .... castrate themselves, .... blind themselves, cut off parts of their bodies, .... and on and on. - 3:48:57 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

Dornen the hung!...... :Then, to top of the menu of Christian superstitions, we have: .... Faith healings, .... possession, trances, .... penitential flagellations, .... ritual dancing .... spirit communication, .... exorcism, speaking in tongues, .... animal sacrifice, .... and, of course, worshipping with rattle-snakes and the drinking of ‘deadly things.’ - 3:50:11 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

Dickus the Fantasticus:My wife gave me something deadly to drink last night...... Damned good thing I was a Christian, or I would have been a goner!....... - 3:52:34 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

Dornen the Desperate!............ :SYMPTOMS OF RELIGIOUS ADDICTION .... Rigid, narrow thinking .... Guilt-based belief that you are depraved, or ‘sinful’ .... Magical thinking that God will fix your fears, guilts, and sexual conflicts MORE SYMPTOMS OF RELIGIOUS ADDICTION......... - Rigid, obsessive adherence to rules, codes of ethics, or religious dogma..........Uncompromising, judgemental attitudes..........Compulsive praying, going to church or crusades - 3:53:57 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

Dornen the Wrung-out!.......... :Why am I here?........... - 3:56:47 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

Peter:--Dornen--By their very belief system, a code of ethics is not possible to Christians. But try and tell them that and they seethe. I just tell them they are a "good person" not because of their beliefs, but despite them. I like what Ayn Rand said about codes of ethics baed solely on mysticicism " Three things that are barred from its field are: mind-reason-reality" Amen. - 4:25:18 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:DORNEN- How cheap was that wine??? You forgot xtian responses when asked about xtians like David Koresh. The response ALWAYS is "he/she is not really a christian!". - 5:31:37 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:RON- That's better! Get on with life, it's short enough already. Are you going to suscribe to Atheist Nation? It sounds like it may be interesting. - 5:36:16 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:I noticed that the Atheist Nation has an article on the "death penalty". I was listening tonight to an American radio station out of Colorado. Someone was just given legal injection tonight. IMHO the death penalty is barbaric! Before all you xtians start on the subject of euthanasia, I'd like to add that the difference between the death penalty and euthanasia is choice. I do think that the guilty person should be punished and if dangerous he/she should be kept away from the general public for life. If the convicted chooses the death penalty, I have no problem with that but I don't think that should be the law's choice. - 5:46:24 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:DORNEN- What xtian message? Stoning, now there's a barbaric punishment! I'm not sure whether you mentioned that your daughter was a lesbian or that that ass Robertson has said lesbians should be stoned. If so, what in hell have they done wrong to deserve a punishment in the first place! The TV network that hosts the "Ellen" show actually flashed a sign for viewers to warn of adult content. It turns out Ellen kissed a friend or some damn thing (I missed the show). Should we insist that the network flash the warning every time someone kissed someone else on the show? - 5:55:07 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene:Last post it should have read, in the last sentence, "a show", meaning any show that someone kisses someone else. - 5:57:48 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

Marlene still harping on the gay thing:While on this subject, I have an xtian friend (one of those who are VERY gullible about religion), who told me two years ago that there were rumors that her daughter was gay. My reaction was "so what" her response was "I would disown her because it's against my christian faith". I blew up! I told where is all this "love" xtians profess! I told her that I found it horrible that she disown her daughter because of her sexual orientation. I was so angry, I asked her to leave, something I've never dome to company. Last month she came for coffee. She was upset because her daughter finally told her that she was a lesbian. She didn't disown her, I'm happy to say. In fact she has decided that god doesn't discriminate. Hummmmm....another self-proclaimed xtian! She, of course, hasn't told her xtian friends about this. - 6:07:30 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes:My only real problem with Christians is their bent toward converting the natives. To borrow a quote from I forget who. . . "one problem with the world today is that fools and fanatics are so sure of themselves while wise men are full of doubt." (Russell?) Regarding missionaries who require that the recipients of their care consider conversion, i would remind them that starvation makes for a great aphrodisiac. I enjoy Bhuddism, though i claim no expertise. One of my favorite things about Bhuddism is that it's most profound teachings take the form of riddles from which the searcher must come up with their own answer. My favorite Bhuddist riddle is this: If one man asks of the Tao and another answers him, neither of them know. - 6:29:55 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes:that's Buddhism, not Bhuddism. ooops. - 6:34:46 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

Farnes:that's "its" not "it's" - 7:48:19 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

Rational:Come, my friends! Visit this site by clicking on my name, in the name of rationalism! - 8:52:33 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

Doran is Len with all of the excuses. - 9:25:13 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

Maybe Doran.... need another kind of wine.. Yes I think he does. - 9:26:33 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

Farnzy - 9:27:01 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

Rob:BILL: Couple of things: 1) Can I just say it is Stephen Hawking, not Hawkings! (Sorry to be pedantic but it gets my goat). 2)I am pretty certain that he wrote The Brief History of Time before he did the imaginary time stuff. With imaginary time there is no singularity, so no breakdown of the mathematics. 3)Matter only has to get down to the Swarzchild radius to form a singularity, which is not an infinitesimal point. 4)I will expand later, but there is an interesting theory as to the universe being a quantum fluctuation, with the negative energy of the gravitational field balancing positive mass-energy. The universe then grew by what is called inflation until it was big enough to keep on going. 5)Yes, Gravity does form stars. 6) Gravity is also explained by superstring theory, but there has been no way of testing the theory as of yet. 7) I have mentioned before, Hawking is out to sell science books to the general public, so words like god go down a hell of a lot better than words such as "Higgs-Boson", or other such technical terms. Thus, I always try to focus on the solid science of such books. - 9:27:46 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

Perhaps the problem with those who are athiest. Is that they come up with too many excuses for their behavior. Maybe the real problem is that they afraid to acknowledge God, because if they do, then that means they are wrong in theyre ways. Maybe thats the problem, and not christians, not God, not all who they blame for theyre behavior. Might I add that not all who say they are christians are. So quoting one is like stereo typing all.... I have a small problem with bashing all over the head over the comment of one. - 9:32:22 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

Rob:FARNES: Funny you should say that. Of all the religions I know, Buddhism is the one I respect the most. They actually put in to practice their ideologies with things such as rejecting materialist lifestyles. - 9:34:29 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

didn't understand the riddle, much kess answer it Farnzy - 9:35:21 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

Christy:Who said some christians do not Rob - 9:36:34 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

Rob:A.Nonymous, Your style sounds familiar. Have I encountered you on Infidels? You're name isn't Promises is it? - 9:37:28 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

Christy... no we haven't met. Farnes gave me this address. This is my first time here - 9:39:09 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

Christy:oops.. new to this thing - 9:39:35 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

Christy: Why are so many against Christianity anyways... What is wrong with it? - 9:40:36 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

Christy:How do you refresh this page? - 9:42:58 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

Rob:RATIONAL: Read your site. It's shit! 1) I am not an atheist as you define it. 2) Every scientific point you make in section A is wrong. 3) No, I shall not be sending you the $25 a year minimum donation! - 9:43:31 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

christy:Rob... ya gonna talk to me? Farnes - 9:45:30 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

Rob:Christy: Nice to meet you. Refresh by clicking your reload icon on your browser. No-one said some christians do not, but I see a hell of a lot more widespread sacrafice when I look at Buddhism, and much less hypocrasy. - 9:47:02 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

Christy:Well heck I am gonna go.. Farnes I didn't see anyone bashing Christians.... Night all - 9:48:29 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

Rob:Christy, I'll have to come back later. I've got a quantum mechanics lecture and an interview to go to. Bye - 9:50:19 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

Christy:So why would Buddism be right and Christianity not be. Why would a smaller group be wrong. the problem I see with Buddism... If I am wrong correct me. But from my understanding. If they die on Buddas good day, then they are saved, bt if they are not, then they are not saved.. What kind of God is that? Shouldn't we be able to choose? - 9:50:55 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

Christy:OK.... nice to meet you too. Goodbye - 9:52:08 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

Xenechtalalianistical Propalariat:Hello! Christy... I don't think that that is what Buddhism is about! It is funny how the atheists say "Buddhists are less hypocritical", though. They put ALL Buddhists in ONE basket labelled "Good and not Hypocritical". Likewise, they place ALL Christians, regardless of whether they know them or not, into the ONE basket known as "Hypocritical". Of course, being blind atheists, they would not consider that there are some GOOD Budhdists, as well as bad ones, GOOD Christians as well as bad ones. I would like to point out that, incidentally, there are both GOOD atheists and bad ones. Regarding Buddhism being less hypocritical, and I hope you read this, Farnes; you see Buddhism from the way the WEST portrays it... you know NOTHING about what REALLY happens in places such as TIBET. SURE the DALAI LAMA is a great dude, but does he tell you that, in remote Tibetan villages there are Buddhist temples that demand money from the villages or they will be punished? The Temple coffers swell bigger and bigger while the villagers get poorer and poorer... then the PRIESTS go into this mad frenzy... hyping themselves up and chanting. They proceed to stick NAILS into their skin and are not hurt and do not bleed. In these places, the Buddhists rob the poor superstitious people and grow fat and content on their wealth. But, we would like to deny that, wouldn't we? - 10:33:15 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

Pablo Piccanose's Dualistical Maradukanoidal Questicariaptitudalanistic Ploppy Dude:"Thank God I'm an atheist". Now there's a great quote to ponder... But seriously... I thank God who created the heavens and the earth that he gave me the ability to not believe in him. I like this one: "An atheist is a person with no invisible means of support". I was LOLing ages after I read that one. Well... it's been nice contributing to your benign page... please, you regulars... if you like me, tell me to stay! If not, I'll be on my way rowing my boat gently down the stream. BYE! - 10:45:26 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

Joette:-->TO ALL..so now we have a contest between buddhism and xtianity. Am I on the wrong page? Are they both not a crutch to elude reality? Granted, both religions are based on the lives of real persons who did exist, but how does this make them any different than the followers of David Koresh, Jimmy Jones, or Ti and Do? All were influential people who convinced many that they had found the truth. - 10:57:03 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

Joette:-->RATIONAL..thanks for the early morning laugh! I read your page, and saw the bottom line. How did you come up with the suggested $25 per year? Is that you can soak ALL income brackets? DORNEN was right when he made mention of the highways of heaven having lots of places to buy insurance. Why does the offer of salvation always come with a price tag? - 11:04:01 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

Joette:-->CHRISTY..you asked "what is wrong with christianity?". Well, what is wrong with it is the fact that you have to rely on mythology to get through life. Do you need to act according to the bible because of what is written there? Would you not have a moral code of your own if you weren't a christian? - 11:07:15 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

shawn:Heaven is used to ease the fear of death by those whose lives are too empty to accept death as no big deal. - 11:46:37 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

Peter:---JOETTE---I like that post you gave to Cristy--UNIDENTIFIED PERSON WHO USES CURIOSLY LONG WORDS AS HIS "HANDLE"---Sure, stick around, and let us know what'cher all about--no one will bite--but if you say something dumb: THEN you're in trouble!! - 12:05:38 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

KRATOS:well here i am ready for debate! And a non trinitarian christian to boot!! - 13:06:27 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

IAN>.>.>...The Product Placement Bible Sample Advertisements: Genesis 9:12-15 And McDonald's said, This is the token of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for perpetual generations: I do set my arches in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth. And I will remember my covenant, and the coffee shall no longer be heated to one hundred and eighty degrees to destroy thy flesh. - 13:07:07 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

hello anyone here? - 13:10:55 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

Peter:KRATOS---Hello. Does this mean you cannot reconcile the trinity "problem?" What are you defending/debating here? - 13:12:17 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

QUAKE:are you perfect, if not then who do you compatre yourself to, that must be the perfect standard that you know of, which is God, or do you believe in the truth, if so themn , Christ said he is the truth, if not then is that true what you believe? - 13:12:21 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

Peter:--QUAKE--If one imagines the "perfect being" --without flaws, shortcomings etc. etc. --is this not how religious people perceive God?--Or some close variant thereof? I really do not see the point you are trying to make here. It sounds suspiciously like some variation of an ancient incantation, that I question you yourself aren't really too sure of what it actually means. - 13:18:04 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

HELLO - 13:20:49 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

Peter:--TO PERSON(S)saying hello and wondering if anyone is here---Just post what's on your mind--and check back occaisionally. If someone feels inclined to respond to what you say, they will do so. - 13:26:32 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

Steven:How are we being bombarded with these idiot christians. Budha, Christ, its all man made bs. - 14:01:15 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

Steven:QUAKE, sounds like a child. I guess all christians sound like children. - 14:02:11 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

QUAKE:Steven, and Peter..no I am appealing to your inner witness of God that you are fully aware of, every time you feel convicted for doing wrong , this witness shows you the error, and the witness inside you know to be perfect, that witness is that of God in your conscience. The Bible talks alot of this, Paul says in the book of Romans. that that which may be know of God is manifest in them, for God hath shown it unto them. He also says that all men hold the truth in unrighteousness. and that the work of the law is written in thier hearts, this is the work of the law or moral law that all you know about. - 14:08:57 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

Peter:---Steve---Apparently there were someposters from a christian chat encouraged to come over here to give it their best shot--but they all seem to do the same thing: post once, and retreat back to their fuzzy warm, little room, and let "God defend himself"--I kid you not, this is what they said!! - 14:10:24 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

QUAKE:so are you hearing this inner witness - 14:11:22 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

QUAKE:Peter I'm still here but I have to work so I can only peridically show up - 14:12:17 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

QUAKE:Steven..I am 34 years old and a minister of the truth of the gospel of Christ - 14:13:12 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

QUAKE:SO PETER are you now silenced and will you admit your sin and turn to God, do you know that we must all become like little children and be humbled - 14:14:55 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

Hello Peter...I'm inimpressed with Pascal's wager. Anyway, it's an arguement for a belief in God not for the existence of God so it doesn't interest me all that much...why did you want to talk about it? Peter...what is love? - 14:16:57 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

QUAKE:TO ALL...when someone says I don't believe in God" , I ask can ask them, you don't believe in who?, and then they go on to describe God or at least thier partial understanding of God? Showning that they know He exist, also we see design in creation so there must be a designer, moral laws , a moral lawgiver, etc - 14:17:00 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

mccoy:Peter...forgot my name - 14:17:34 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

QUAKE, go :I go to the theology caht room often if any want to come there - 14:18:07 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

Peter:--QUAKE--Glad you returned. When you refer to God, I am assuming you believe such a thing exists. However, exactly what IS God? IF you are claiming He exists, what is it for which you are claiming existence? Defining and clarifying the concept of "God" is a prerequisite for intelligibility. Now, defining this concept is not an optional chore here for you to do. It is a necessary prerequisite for that intelligibilty. If you fail to do this, to refer to "god" is to communicate nothing at all; it is as if nothing has been said. - 14:18:27 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

QUAKE:mccoy so your here to, no wonder you are confused, listening to some of the ridiculous and childish arguments against God - 14:19:02 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

QUAKE:Peter....God is the creator, the life giver, the creator of our person, and being, of our souls and spirits, the very one who holds the universe together with the word of His power, the whole universe declairs God, and testifies of Him, we see His god head as a trinity also, in creation, all three but one. For example we see time, space and matter, the tree properties of the univers yet one universe. We also see future past and present, three time frames, yet one time, God is said to be the Alpha and the Omega. We also see, proton nuetron and electron three but one atom, or solid liquid gas, or body soul and spirit. But yet we see what God is like the most in the person of Jesus Christ, we see God's character, for Jesus also came to declaire the true God to men. If you think you are wise you would not discount this information that he claimed to give to man. Also God is all powerful and personal, he is not an impersonal force. If we have personality, it would only be true of the creator of our personality. Yet if you believe in atheism, which is ultimately caos, what hope do you have beyond death? - 14:25:07 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

QUAKE:Peter....I'll tel you a story, (Partly based on a true story). A teacher was teaching a class, and she said , today we are going to talk about how our solarsyatem came about. Does anyone know how?. Then a young boy raised his hand and said, why yes, God created the universe and our solar system. Then the teacher was angry and said, "I don't want to hear any more of that nonsense, the whole solar system was by chance and by radnom colission of atoms, and not by any creator. So the boy was quiet and then went home and built a huge model of the solar system, he brought it into the class, early the next day, and put all the chairs around it. Then the class came in and saw it and wondered, the teacher alsl came in and sawit, and then she said, "Ok clas, who puit this here?" and no one answered. So she said it again, this time angrilly, "Who put this here, it did not come by itself, someone had to create it". Then the boy raised his hand and said, you said it could come by chance and by no creator, and the embarassed teacher, was silent, her foolish statement silenced, for she knew that she was wrong and that there was obviously a creator. - 14:31:30 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

Peter:mccoy--Glad you came back. Not impressed by Pascal's Wager--no one should be. I was to use Pascal's Wager as a comparison tool in which to demonstrate how new atheists can overcome the initial fear of abandoning their beliefs without fearing the repercussions their previous faith convinced its adherents would be the result of "turning their back" on God. This was written by George H. Smith, who wrote the landmark book Atheism: The Case Against God. He calls it "Smith's Wager"........."As one final argument or satire on an argument, you may have heard of Pascal's wager at some point. Blaise Pascal was the famous French mathematician, philosopher, and theologian. He came up with this argument which consequently became quite famous, which went something as follows. Reason can't prove or disprove the existence of God. Weigh the odds. If the atheist is correct, we're going to die, nothing will happen, and nothing is lost. But if the Christian is correct, the nonbelievers are going to believe in Hell for eternity. So it seems like the practical odds would lie with Christianity. We would wager on Christianity because the practical odds are so important. If you wager on Christianity and there is no god, you don't lose anything. The first obvious problem with this is it completely shoves aside the whole issue of intellectual integrity, as if you can just do a complete turn-about in your beliefs willy-nilly without suffering any psychological damage, which simply isn't possible. It would require such a gross miscarriage of intellectual integrity to do this kind of thing that it's inconceivable that someone with Pascal's kind of mind would even offer it. But I want to offer you a kind of counter-wager, called the "Smith's wager." Here are the premises of my wager: 1. The existence of a god, if we are to believe in it, can only be established through reason. 2. Applying the canons of correct reasoning to theistic belief, we must reach the conclusion that theism is unfounded and must be rejected by rational people. Now comes the question, "But what if reason is wrong in this case?", which it sometimes is. We are fallible human beings. What if it turns out that there is a Christian god and He's up there and He's going to punish for eternity for disbelieving in Him. Here's where my wager comes in. Let's suppose you're an atheist. What are the possibilities? The first possibility is there is no god, you're right. In that case, you'll die, that'll be it, you've lost nothing, and you've lived a happy life with the correct position. Secondly, a god may exist but he may not be concerned with human affairs. He may be the god of traditional Deism. He may have started the universe going and left it to its traditional devices, in which case you will simply die, that is all there is to it, again, and you've lost nothing. Let's suppose that God exists and He is concerned with human affairs -- He's a personal god -- but that He is a just god. He's concerned with justice. If you have a just god, he could not possibly punish an honest error of belief where there is no moral turpitude or no wrongdoing involved. If this god is a creator god and He gave us reason as the basic means of understanding our world, then He would take pride in the conscientious and scrupulous use of reason the part of His creatures, even if they committed errors from time to time, in the same way a benevolent father would take pride in the accomplishments of his son, even if the son committed errors from time to time. Therefore, if there exists a just god, we have absolutely nothing to fear from such a god. Such a god could not conceivably punish us for an honest error of belief. Now we came to the last possibility. Suppose there exists an unjust god, specifically the god of Christianity, who doesn't give a damn about justice and who will burn us in Hell, regardless of whether we made honest mistakes or not. Such a god is necessarily unjust, for there is no more heinous injustice we could conceive of, than to punish a person for an honest error of belief, when he has tried to the best of his ability to ascertain the truth. The Christian thinks he's in a better position in case this kind of god exists. I wish to point out that he's not in any better position than we are because if you have an unjust god. The earmark of injustice is unprincipled behavior, behavior that's not predictable. If there's an unjust god and He really gets all this glee out of burning sinners and disbelievers, then what could give him more glee than to tell Christians they would be saved, only to turn around and burn them anyway, for the Hell of it, just because he enjoys it? If you've got an unjust god, what worst injustice could there be than that? It's not that far-fetched. If a god is willing to punish you simply for an honest error of belief, you can't believe He's going to keep his word when He tells you He won't punish you if you don't believe in Him because He's got to have a sadistic streak to begin with. Certainly He would get quite a bit of glee out of this behavior. Even if there exists this unjust god, then admittedly we live in a nightmarish universe, but we're in no worse position than the Christian is. Again, if you're going to make the wager, you might as well wager on what your reason tells you, that atheism is correct, and go that route because you won't be able to do anything about an unjust god anyway, even if you accept Christianity. My wager says that you should in all cases wager on reason and accept the logical consequence, which in this case is atheism. If there's no god, you're correct; if there's an indifferent god, you won't suffer; if there's a just god, you have nothing to fear from the honest use of your reason; and if there's an unjust god, you have much to fear but so does the Christian. We come back full-circle to our original point, that atheism must always be considered within the wider context of the respect for reason and the respect for truth. I think that, as atheists, when you try to communicate the atheistic message this is the central point you should hammer home again and again. - 14:35:17 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

QUAKE:Peter are you also now silenced? and all others in this room, be more careful when you attack the truth of God for His wisdom is greater than all darkness, and turn to Jesus the way the truth and the life, and repent of your sins and trust in Him for salvation, he cares deeply for you - 14:35:19 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

QUAKE:Peter..this moral law also show you that when you go against it you feel guilty and deserving of justice, for when we break a law there is a consequence, we also judge others who hurt us so we say , go to hell you liar or mean person, yet we have also lied, so we judge ourselfe by our own understanding of justice, by the moral law that convicts us - 14:43:29 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

Peter:--QUAKE--Silenced, Hardly. Your description of God is colourful, and completely unintelligible. However, this is all that I think I'll get, so for now, it will have to do. Your story rests on the assumption of false logic that we may or may not touch on again ( It's called the Analogical Argument To Design ) to be precise. Now, I want you to answer this question, as it is very important for this discussion. Does God have any unlimited attributes? - 14:44:03 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

QUAKE:Peter did you read that unanswerable story about the boy in the classroon that I gave you??? - 14:46:00 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

QUAKE:Peter let's put it this way, God CANNOT LIE, or DENY HIMSELF, he also will do that which he says, His word is always true. He is also infinetly wise, so for you to try and put an omnipotent and omnipresent God under a microscope would be like trying to measur and infinite God with a finite yardstick. He is also a loving God, who is gracious, and kind to unthankful men like you and others.. Some might say well, if God was a loving God then why would he not get rid of all the evil in the world right now. Well if he did this you also would be destroyed, so than God that He does not destroy you right now, this shows that he is a loving and merciful God.. We see His love demonstated in Christ Jesus, who died for us, but you probibly have a problem with the scriptural witness, as you also have a problem with the creation witness, and the inner witness. How much more do you want. You cannot put God under a microscope he is to big for your microscope. - 14:52:05 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

QUAKE:Peter....God has given you many witnesses...jsut try to imagine if you wanted to talk to some ants, how would you do it..One way is to become an ant to communicate to them. - 14:54:03 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

Steven:QUAKE, you are one of the people whom should be illiminated. You brainwash children and you tell me we are lost. If you are a minister, you are my enemy, period. Your religion is the largest death cult this planet has ever seem. god is a man made entity. You believe and teach a murderous religion. Do not preach to me preacher man. You do nothing but continue the greatest travesty in the history of man. - 14:57:07 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

Peter:--QUAKE--It is becoming very obvious you are enthused talking about your belief in God, but you are all over the place here. Why do we not just stick to one issue at a time here, rather than spouting these moral threais of doom if we do not accept belief in God--we'll get to that OK. Now just to sum up the contents of your last post pleaseanswer this question, YES or NO. Does God have any unlimited attributes? - 14:59:41 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

QUAKE:Peter..the moral law and inner witness is one of the strongest proofs to you of Gods existance...also christianity is reasonable.. But do you unreasonably reject the scriptural witness of Jesus Christ? Do you know that if a persoin has a desire or craving for food, there is sometihing to satsify that desire, the same for sex etc, and for God also, if men have a desire for truth and hope for eternal life. that desire would not be there if there was not some reality. Chance does not create a desire for order and purpose. Also, if all the universe were just by chance, by a random collision of atoms, as you are really saying, then your thinking would also be just chance and a random collision of atoms in you head and How could i believe anything that you say is true. And if you say you don't believe in truth, I ask ask is that true? - 15:01:06 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

Steven:QUAKE, PETER will argue with you by useing scientific arguments to conteract your bs. I on the other hand tend to use your own bible and history to counteract your bs. The very own bible you believe in is full of your god murdering men, women, children, infants, animals etc... If you brainwash people with your bible, then you are a contributer to keeping the human race in the dark ages. Shall I quote possible hundreds of bible versus that make your god a murderer, and an idiot. - 15:01:20 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

Steven:QUAKE, did you say god cannot lie. Shall I point to your precious bible verses which prove your mythological creatures lied (from the mythological bible) . - 15:03:25 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

QUAKE:Peter..God is unlimited in in His power and love - 15:09:43 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

Steven:QUAKE, you murderous lier. Where are you. Can you answer for all the millions of people you christians have murdered in the name of you evil diety. Cmon, how about the hundreds of cultures christians have destroyed. Give some kind of response. Or were they not christians. Cmon!!! - 15:09:53 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

Peter...I ordered the "Case against God" last night. My problem with athiesm is the same as my problem with Christianity...I find certainity in spiritual matters absurd. "To move from knowing to not knowing this is good.To move from not knowing to knowing this is mental illness."Tao. I hope to remain open to the possibility of a higher power.Are you certain that "God" doesn't exist? - 15:09:55 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

mccoy:Peter...forgot my name again - 15:10:29 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

QUAKE:Steven go ahead. and remember I love you and hope for your salvation, for as you stanbd you have no hope beyond death and will fall into an weternal hell fire, how terrible it is for you unless you repent and turn to Christ - 15:12:45 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

QUAKE:Peter..lets stick with the inner witness for now the moral law of God working in all men? try to keep our post short so we can talk? - 15:13:58 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

Steven:QUAKE, you out there. Can you atone for your brother actions. Or can you account for your bibles inacuracies. No you cannot, you say, you need to have faith to believe in the omnipotent lord of crap. If a god exists, then tell him to come on down. or mabey (as adam says) he is afraid ill kick his ass. - 15:17:13 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

Peter:--QUAKE---You are here to make a case for God's existence, so far, your assertions are no more valid than if I said a Gnorf-Worf exists, and used the same arguments. What I am trying to do here is coduct this debate systematically. So far what you are doing would be like the prosecutor coming into a courtroom, running right up to the accused and start screaming a flood of unproven accusations at him non-sop pointing vindictively at him at the same time. Do not fear you will get a chance to make your case here. Is this the way you wish to conduct yourself in a forum of rational debate? If so, go right ahead because no one else here will. Now, could you PLEASE answer the question. Yes or NO: Does God have any unlimited attributes? - 15:17:36 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

QUAKE:Peter I read your confusion about God in your long post..You talk of an unjust God, but he is Just and you know that when eveil is done to you you expect justice to be done, so when you go against God and Hids law in your conscience, you are not just making a mistake unknowingly, but hating God, you also deserve justice and you know it. - 15:18:05 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

QUAKE:Peter..hoe many times must I answer the same question, yes God is unlimited in His power and love and wisdom, as we can know? - 15:19:49 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

QUAKE:STEVEN..why do you hate God, he loves you and sent His Son to die for your sins.. And also I use the King James Bible, try and show me even one error or contradiction? - 15:21:50 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

Dornen:~~QUAKE......... your "god" DOES lie! - 15:21:51 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

QUAKE:Dornen..no he does not, and I am ready for your misinterpreted scripture verse, go aheaed and quote it - 15:23:41 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

Steven:QUAKE, I can, as many before me has, that your god is not only man made, but it is a hodgepodge of religions thousands of years older than christianity. Explain please how this can be. How your god was invented thousands of years after mankind already invented gods. Whats up. Please give an answer. Ever hear of Mithra? - 15:24:13 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

Quake"Of all the systems of religion that ever were invented, there is none more derogatory to the Almighty, more unedifying to man, more repungnant to reason, and more contradictory in itself than this thing called Christianity. Too absurd for belief, too impossible to believe, and too inconsistant for practise, it renders the heart torpid or produces only athiests and fanatics. As an engine of power, it serves the purpose of despotism, and as a means of wealth, the avarice of priests, but so far as respects the good of man in general, it leads to nothing here or hereafter." Thomas Paine - 15:24:14 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

mccoy:geez...I keep forgetting my name... - 15:25:52 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

QUAKE:Peter, where are you? lets get to the root of the moral law? and the inner witness, I believe that you are afraid to talk about this because it is so powerful an argument. But also think about things like love , joy peace, we don't see these things tangebly yet we live in them , they are real things and emotions, yet not physical, so we must not always base reality only on what we can see and touch. For we see love expressed in many different ways. By the way I know of your philosophical and intelectual talk, but it is hopeless, and gives no rest to the troubled soul, to the one who is fearful of sinning in his conscience , you say just ignore it, but he can't - 15:26:51 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

QUAKE:Steven. my God always was what confusion have you lost yourself in? - 15:28:02 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

Dornen:QUAKE....... Seems strange that an Atheist must instruct a "minister" of Christianity in his religion, but here is goes:............Can and does God lie? Looking this point up in the mazes of Holy Writ, we discover confusion. In Numbers 23:19, we are told: "God is not a man, that he should lie." This is put even mere strongly in Hebrews 6:18, where we read: "It was impossible for God to lie." 2 Thessalonians 2:11, where we read: "For this cause God shall send them strong delusions, that they should believe a lie." And in I Kings 22:23, God is thus reported: "Now, therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee." - 15:30:31 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

Peter:--QUAKE--NO, you still have not answered my question which is: ( and I only want a YES or a NO ) understand? The question is: ( YES or NO ) Does God have any unlimited attributes? And answer it in either of these ways. (1)Yes, God has unlimited attributes, or (2)No, God does not have any unlimited attributes...You may then add whatever you wish to either answer. - 15:30:36 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

QUAKE:Peter we know that God is not an unjust God for the Bible tells us also, he had said in the Bible, that He takes no pleasure in the destruction of the wicked, but that they would turn and repent - 15:30:42 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

Steven:QUAKE here are a small # of inaccuracies: God creates animals and then man - Gen 1:25-26 God creates man and then the animals - Gen 2:18-19 Noah takes 7 pairs of each type of animal onto the ark - Gen 7:2-3 Noah takes one pair of animal onto the ark - Gen 6:19 God promises Abraham the land of Canaan to live in - Gen 17:8 God did not allow Abraham to live in the promised land - Acts 7:5, Heb 11:8,9,13 Jacob was buried in a cave in Machpelah's field that was bought from Ephron the Hittite - Gen 50:13 Jacob was buried in a tomb at Shechem bought from the sons of Hamor - Acts 7:15-16 God creates animals and then man - Gen 1:25-26 Solomon had 4,000 stalls and 12,000 horsemen - 2 Chron 9:25 Solomon had 40,000 stalls and 12,000 horsemen - 1 Kings 4:26 Drinking alcohol is acceptable - Deuteronomy 14:26, John 2:7-11, 1 Timothy 5:23 Drinking alcohol is not acceptable - Proverbs 20:1, 23:31-34, Hosea 20:1 Jesus began ministry after John the Baptist is imprisoned - Mark 1:14,15,17. Jesus's began ministry whilst John was free and before imprisoned - John 1:28-29, 3:25-30 hudreds more, all you need to do is ask! - 15:31:03 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

QUAKE:Dornen..like I said you are very confused and cannot interpret the scripture aright, as the bible says the natural man does not understand the things of God, 1 Corinthians 2. These verse do not say that Goid lies, but he allow men to be given over to thier own evil ways. and in giving them up, all hell attacks them, such as demonds and false spirits. - 15:33:12 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

Peter:--QUAKE--Talking about moral law is pointless at this juncture, becase it will all rest on the pre-supposition of God's existence, and now I am in the process of trying to get to to give me description of God which I think is adequate--you aren't even at that stage yet. So at this point any attempt at his proof is cognitively empty. - 15:35:06 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

QUAKE:Peter....true christians are too wise for your traps, I know that you think you have something to say if i answer your question with a yes or no, but I believe I already did answer it.. To our understanding as humans, YES God does have some unlimited attributes, such as he is all powerful and to our minds and understanding is infinite in wisdom, we can nnot search out the end of His wisdom and greatness, His ways are past finding out - 15:35:58 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

mccoy:Quake...not only does the Hebrew God lie as Dornen pointed out...he is the author of evil according to the Bible...Amos 3:6..."Shall there be evil in the streets and the Lord hath not done it?" Is 45:7 I form the light and create darkness. I make peace and create evil. I, the Lord, do all these things." and not only does the Hebrew God claim to be the author of evil he created some men specifically for the day of evil...Proverbs 16:4.How evil of him! - 15:39:27 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

Steven:Here are versus which make your nonexistent god the greatest murder human kind has ever seen: :Exodus 32:27 Then he said to them, "This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: ` Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor.'" Exodus 32:27-29 27Then he said to them, "This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: `Each m an strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his br other and friend and neighbor.'" 28The Levites did as Moses commanded, and that day about three thousand of the people died. 29Then Moses said, "You have been set apart to the LORD today, for you w ere against your own sons and brothers, and he has blessed you this day." Joshua 8:22-25 22The men of the ambush also came out of the city against them, so that they wer e caught in the middle, with Israelites on both sides. Israel cut them down, leaving them neither survivors nor fugitives. 23But they took the king of Ai alive and brought him to Joshua. 24When Israel had finished killing all the men of Ai in the fields and i n the desert where they had chased them, and when every one of them had been put to the sword, all the Israelites retur ned to Ai and killed those who were in it. 25Twelve thousand men and women fell that day--all the people of Ai. - 15:39:39 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

QUAKE:Peter..my description of God is based on all the evidence that I can draw from, moral law and inner witness, creation, the bible, others witnesses, etc, so to ask me to go beyond the evidences if s rediculous statement, you are trying , as many who are confused do to get rid and ignore all the evidence that God has given, this is so childish and ignorant, sad to say - 15:40:50 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

Peter:--mccoy--I hope you do read Smith's book. I am not certain that God does NOT exist, simply because I really do not know what God is. So when someone asks me this question it's like asking me if a Gnorf-worf exists, or a Hula-Hula, or whatever. If it's unidentified, one cannot determine either way. Also, an atheist is not some one who denies outright the possibilty of a God ( as many presume ), in the broadest sense, it is simply one who does not believe in the existence of God. To what degree he thinks it is "possible" has no bearing on the definition. - 15:41:05 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

QUAKE:Steven all these can be answered easily, it just takes so long and I am at work, bear with me, I will try to print it out - 15:42:43 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

Steven:ANY, this person is a preacher that is so brainswashed himself he does not realize what kind of person he is. Look beyond your mythological bible a do a little research QUAKE. For the knowledge that will make you see the light so to speak is out there. OOOps I forgot, you believe that if you eat from the tree of knowledge you may go to hell. - 15:46:35 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

Steven:I wonder where adam, rob, bill etc.. are. Where is marlene? - 15:47:43 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

QUAKE,:Steven you know so little ablout the truth, and are so far off it is unbelievable..I said i can answer all you confusion by the grace of God. But I am also working, I printed out your confusion I will look closer at it, for I am not afraid to talk about any topic - 15:55:23 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

QUAKE:Peter..I see that yopu ran away at the moral law talk, well I expected it you obvioulsly know nothing and are full of other mens words and confusion, but I would always be willing to talk with you if you can bear to hear the truth. - 15:56:55 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

QUAKE:Steven you should not presume to think what i believe, you are wrong often? - 15:59:46 on 14 Oct 97 GMT

Dornen:~~QUAKE...... I sense that you are very desparate that your Christian beliefs be true at all cost, even the cost of rejecting the most valuable of our survival tools, Reason and Honest Inquiry. Most Christians are angry, defensive, and fear-driven. To me, it seems impossible that anyone can even remotely believe in the existence of a Personal God. So I am trying to understand your fear of Atheists and non-Christians whom you perceive to be threats to you. Which indeed they are. ........ Seems that you would at least investigate the possibility that your Personal, pray-answering God most likely does not exist Evidence suggests that he/she/it does not! - 0:39:14 on 15 Oct 97 GMT

MCCOY...... I concur with Peter!...... "Atheism, the Case Against God," by George H. Smith was my very first book on the issue of our current God!..... It is an outstanding book, written by an outstanding writer and philosopher..... This book is to the open mind, what the Hubble telescope is to Astromomy and Cosmology!..... good luck!.... - 0:45:20 on 15 Oct 97 GMT

Melissa:BILL: I used to measure the credibility of my ideas on the basis of what I thought or what Ms. Rand explained explicitly as her thought on the subject. I don't do that anymore and it really ticks me off when people try and illegitimize my arguments on the basis of their supposed inconsistencies with Rand's ideas once these people realize I agree with her on many philosophical subjects. NOW, on the subject of consciousness: I absolutely refuse to use Freudian terminology to explain the phenomena of the mind, so I don't agree with your id, ego, superego, primary intelligence, secondary intelligence, etc. theory. You still haven't answered my question, why do you persist in using Freudian theory? It's been shown to be an unreliable predictor of human behavior -- and that dream therapy crap? Come on!! Let's get a grip on the reality of neurophysiology. Need help? Not a problem. Here's a very brief course in the history of "Consciousness", or more appropriately "mind": There have been two leading theories that attempt to answer the question, Where is the mind? These theories date back to ancient times. One is the heart hypothesis, suggested by Empedocles and Aristotle. They believed the mind was seated in the heart because of its warmth, activity, and emotions (we feel emotions in our heart because with the addition of epinephrine or norepinephrine to our blood stream our heart rate slows down and speeds up, but they didn't know this). They didn't think the brain was a good candidate because it was cool; they decided the brain must be a radiator, to cool the blood. Then came Alcmaeon of Croton (500 B.C.) who said, hey maybe the mind is located in the brain. Plato thought that made sense because the brain is the closest organ to heaven (if you don't count the skin). Alcmaeon's hypothesis was accepted (I unfortunately don't know the reasons why, but its been shown to be correct) and there came the problem of localization of function: 1.Are mental processes a function of the brain or the mind, i.e. is the brain separate from the mind? 2.Where is the locus of control for different behaviors in the brain? And along came Rene Descartes, the Dualist. He proposed the mind/body problem,that mind and body are separate, therefore brain and mind are separate. He claimed that an interaction must take place for the mind to USE the body. The body is a machine, the mind allows us to learn. He suggested that the pineal body in the brain is the "seat of the soul" (I believe that's what "pineal" means) because it is located in the middle-top of the brain (again, closest to heaven)-- this is where the interaction takes place. This was accepted for a while, then someone suggested monism, that mind and brain are the same -- the unified mind is produced by the bioactivity of the brain. This is the accepted theory today -- unless you are a theist of course. Now the implications on consciousness and freewill are this: If you take a dualist approach, freewill makes sense and consciousness is a product of the Mind, something independent of the body, that manipulates the external world through its interaction with the body. Sounds kind of like a soul doesn't it? Now if you take a monist approach, which is my approach of choice, freewill is no longer a valid construct of behavior, and consciousness is just a product of the complex biochemical processes of the brain. Emotions, memory, thought, consciousness can all be explained biochemically. This is why I say consciousness is a figment of the imagination. I'm not denying the reality of the experience of consciousness. I'm just saying it's not independent of biochemical processes. And when I say that, I can't turn around and flout the reality of free will. Are you sure you are deciding to sleep in a little bit longer tomorrow morning of your own free will? Are you sure you are not really a slave to your own biochemical processes, those sly and subtle rulers of the living world? (ALL: sorry about the length of this post). - 0:53:10 on 15 Oct 97 GMT

<b>TEST - 1:04:08 on 15 Oct 97 GMT

Melissa:QUAKE: Of course Steven's examples of inconsistencies in the bible can be answered easily. They have been answered easily for ages and ages, which is why the damn book persists in luring innocents into its web of Doublethinkology. You see the human mind is a wonderously complex organism, able to adapt to any environmental change, able to ignore information that doesn't concur with its need for self-consistency, rationalizing it away. Which is what you'll be doing, rationalizing away the inconsistencies in the holy scriptures of your theology of choice. But they'll still be there. You may be able to get rid of them or hide them in some dark recess in your own mind, but your mind cannot sculpt and change reality -- they will remain solid and tangible here in the physical world (as opposed to mental, not spiritual). It's really quite amazing: the brain is our claim to evolutionary mental superiority, brought us out of the jungle and into the quest for knowledge of our own existence, and yet the devices it has developed for self-delusion may cause the destruction of our species. I wonder if this is a problem with other intelligent lifeforms in the universe? - 1:19:55 on 15 Oct 97 GMT

Dornen:MELLISA......... Wow! - 1:23:23 on 15 Oct 97 GMT

Dummy Dornen:Melissa.... sorry for mis-spelling your very pretty name!....... - 1:24:47 on 15 Oct 97 GMT

Melissa, prophesying the DOOM of QUAKE (he, he):O.K. Quake -- rationalize this away. There's this really cool logical fallacy. All religions make this error. It's called Affirming the Consequent. I'll explain it symbolically using A's and B's then apply it to your belief system. Here's how it goes: A is an antecedent, or cause, and B is the consequent, or effect, of A. Given: If A implies B, and A is true, then B must be true. Now the fallacy. When you affirm the consequent, what you are saying is that you have this theory, and according to this theory, you predict the outcome B. Well, you make an observation that B exists or happens, so the cause must be A. But you can't say A is the cause of B just because you observed B and it is consistent with your theory A. You can't say this because there may be rival hypotheses that explain the outcome B. Now apply this to the God Theory. There's a theory out there that god created the universe. You predict that if god created the universe, there must be a universe. You observe the universe, then conclude that the god theory must be true. After all, the effect is consistent with the theoretical cause, yes? But there are competing hypotheses for the creation, or at least existence, of the present universe, for example, the Big Bang; or how about Buddhism's One, that eternal consciousness we're all apart of: it suggests the universe is eternal, not created. And there are more, for example Egyptian creation tales, Native American creation tales. By what standard do you determine that your theological construct is more descriptive of the cause of the existence of the universe than another? - 1:38:46 on 15 Oct 97 GMT

Adam (Well, the joint was jumpin'):I'm announcing my presents. Can you believe I had to go back 650 posts just to get to my last conversation with Farnesworthless of Friday night. I'm so glad we're the center of such attention. Needless to say, I did not review the overwhelming majority of back posts. For those new to the page who don't know me, I coined the phrase, "Religion is the great anchor on the ship of human intellectual progress." ALL RELIGION IS IGNORANCE; it stems from man's insecurity and is a projection upon the inanimate cosmos of a childish desire to explain things in simplistic terms of human experience. Atheists, although not inherently superior in all respects, honestly can claim the intellectual high ground, for they are content with observing reality and seeking rational explanations for that which is not yet explained. By contrast, theists have latched onto a self-justifying fable created and perpetuated by men, in which god occupies the realm of all which is inexplicable in simple human terms. As for those presents, Joette will get none 'cause she still ain't gonna win. - 1:42:10 on 15 Oct 97 GMT

Adam SAY HEY, QUOTE of the DAY:This past Sunday marked the 88th anniversary of the murder by Catholics of a great Spanish martyr for Atheism, who said, "WE WILL NOT, THEREFORE, LOSE OUT TIME PRAYING TO AN IMAGINARY GOD FOR THINGS WHICH OUR OWN EXERTIONS ALONE CAN PROCURE." OK, scuzzie, who the hell was he? - 1:48:13 on 15 Oct 97 GMT

1 - 1:48:56 on 15 Oct 97 GMT

Christy:Picture, if you will, that there is another world. Perhaps in another relm. In this world there are two main authorities. One has all power and a compassionate heart. The other, is full of hate and rage, and wants to become like the other. Picture, that this second authority, has much glitter and fame attached (the reason being that the first authority gave him voice he has) which is very nice and sweet sounding. This being, who is full of hate, has been told, that he will never compare to the first. He was created by the first in order to praise him (who by the way reguarded the second as his favorite at one time) Seems like the second got a BIG head, and begin to challange that which he obviously could not out do. The first being created a word of many things and people in order to recieve praise from all. He thought to himself that it would be unfair to make them choose, so he decided to give them a choice. They could choose him, or they could choose the second, who is against him. He thought, what can I do to show them that I am worthy. So he loved them, and cared for them, and even healed them when they were sick. The second being chose to currupt all, and chose to lie and steal, and make all feel that he is surpreme, by using illusions to make them believe. But unfortunate for him... he has been told that he will surly die, because he ofcourse can not out do the one with more power. So there is a tug of war ragging over all. And sadly the people choose to take the easy way out and follow the second. At leate most do. There are a very few that have realized that the illusion is only a trap. Perhaps this world very real. it is ashame that so many are following the illusion. - 1:53:51 on 15 Oct 97 GMT

Christy:Perhaps many love to come up with sorry excuses to not live for the greater one. So they may say that they just didn't know when the day of Judgment arrives. How sad Dornen. The worste part of it is that we alone will not speak of what Sally Sue told us, or hoe Mr. Len tried to come up with sorry excuses, and they seemed real, or how we can't figure why Bobby Joe who we didn't even know, died. We will have to stand and account for all that we have done or said that is not covered. - 1:58:47 on 15 Oct 97 GMT

Christy: Now weapon formed against me shall prosper. Even the weopan of words. My God is real! My God is powerful, and means what he says. My God doesn't play foolish games. He is a very serious God, and he loves his children, but I wouldn't suggest messing with them because that is a very wrong mistake. My natural father wouldn't take it, he would do what ever he could to help his child out in the time of need. So how much more will my heavenly father, who has the power to do something about it, help his children in time of need. He is so wonderful! I love HIM! He is AWESOME! He is worthy to be praised. HE IS GOD! God of the universe. GOD over Satan! God over my life, and he is the GREAT physician who healed my father of canser, who saved my life, who will protect all of his children who abide in the secret place. He will set angels about them, he will not let harm come to them, he will